Is Vegan Bone Fracture Risk Really 43% Higher?
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- Another EPIC-Oxford study has resulted in a media blitz of articles that are used as ammo against vegans across social media.
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Main Study on Fracture Risk:
bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com...
BMI and Fracture Risk Quote (CORRECTION ON PAGE SHOWN):
www.medpagetoday.com/resource...
Breastfeeding and Hip Fracture Study:
asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com...
Study that Informed Video:
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I'm vegan for 5 years and I fractured my ankle rock climbing after a 5m fall. When I wasn't vegan I didn't fracture any bones, though I also didn't rock climb.
so veganism not only made your bones weak, but also become more risk driven and start bouldering - plants should be forbidden!
Patient: Can I play the piano?
Doctor: Yes!
Patient: Great, I couldn't before.
@@s4mbuk4 It's a gateway food to getting off the couch. I saw one person who was a long term plant eater... He took walks... For fun! *queue scary horror music and lightning*
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🐒🐵🦍✅❤️😬🦷💪 1% cancer !!! 99% the same as us !!! 1% cancer in the wild. Scientific fact !!!
A 5 meter fall , oh my ! oh my ! I would keep the vegan part and ditch the rock climbing part.
Ridiculously flawed and out of date study. Glad you jumped on it.
Fun personal anecdote: I (a 10+ year vegan) fractured (actually shattered into several pieces) my left clavicle last winter snowboarding. Anyone of any diet would have fared as poorly: I fell going full speed down the mountain with all weight and momentum impacting directly on my leading shoulder. It was ugly - I had to be rescued off the mountain and everything. The interesting part of this story is after I had the surgery to reconstruct the bone (steel plate + 9 screws) the orthopedic surgeon told me at the first followup appointment, "Man, you got some strong bones!" And went on to say they were probably the strongest and most dense bones of anyone he'd ever operated on and that he had trouble getting the screws to go in. He was truly impressed.
He didn't know quite how to react when I told him I was a long term vegan. He just said, "oh, that's interesting". You could almost see cognitive dissonance pinwheel spinning inside his head lol.
That is indeed interesting - doesn;t change the fact that many people have the opposite experience on the wfpb. I am one of those people - my joint health got a lot worse on 2 years of that diet
Eat more greens. Daily. Make sure to get some K2 and Vit D.
Great!
There is no way for you to know that "Anyone of any diet would have fared as poorly"
I fell going way too fast with poor visibility in St. Anton, Austria and went head over heels at least 3 times, lost both skis and both poles and didn't break anything. Multiple People rushed to help because it looked so bad, but after People brought me my skis, I could get up and ski down on my own. I quit for the day, though.
@@LisaCulton The doc said he had geat bone density, so obviously, your incident wasn't as bad as his. Pointless comment to reinforce your animal abusing bias.
I'm a 44 year old skateboarding vegan. I've taken some very hard falls and never broken anything. Falling is a part of skateing. Skateboarding was mentioned for a second in this so I just had to chime in. 😆💚
Meh, I've broken more bones the last few years than my carni relatives. Those bones were all broken during athletic adventures they never have. I healed great and I'm still having adventures while they are all still just sitting on couches.
Ugh. I saw that on reddit the other day. People just love this stuff as a gotcha against vegans...They all just read the headlines and never even read the damn thing. It's ridiculous and its why we have to debunk this nonsense.
actually it's true. Vegans who comsume less than 500mg of calcium daily have higher fracture rates. But getting 500 is pretty easy
There are many real scientific studies from .edu or .org websites, and just doctors and dietitians themselves that disprove myths about veganism. We get our evidence straight from a reputable source. But veganism is supposed to be bad so any study that shows it's not bad must automatically be bad because VEGAN BAD, THIS ARTICLE WITH NO SOURCES ON VEGANBAD.COM SAYS SO
This describes people in general, about anything. When I was studying environmental science methods as an undergrad, I took a class where we learned how "conservative think tanks" and yellow journalism could skew studies in a biased way to make it plausible to have headlines which claimed there was more Arctic sea ice in xyz year than there had been in the past. Before that, it was smoking, and how it just wasn't harmful. There's a documentary called Merchants of Doubt that I had to watch before that, when I was still in a lower division physical geography class, about how scientists and doctors can be bribed by companies to lie for them or skew statistics. The bottom line is that very few journalistic publications are even trustworthy, magazines like Newsweek and websites/TV like Fox or CNN mostly want profits. Science information should be gleaned from scientific journals, or at least from pop science magazines at worst - rather than tabloid or MSM. It has made me angry for so many years that the same people who are indignant about how climate science denial has been skewed by politics and the media are happy to lap up literal feces fed to them about vegans in order to prop up the animal ag industry.
@@suchalad here's the thing though: meat eaters had to be taught how to eat in the early 20th century. People were more likely to be malnourished if poor or working class, and more likely to have grotesque things like intestinal blockages or gout if they were wealthy. There's nothing "naturally" nutritionally balanced about the way people ate in 1900 in the Western world. Most wealthy folks ate a disgusting amount of animal products to flaunt how aristocratic or high class they were, and had to be taught to eat more fiber and vegetables. Milk was pushed constantly from the 1920s to the 1950s to working and middle class people. One Swedish diet called "the Oslo Meal" was fed from the early 1900s until about the 60s in various public schools across the developed world. It was a lacto-vegetarian meal consisting of things like fresh fruits and/or green salad (occasionally with vegetable soup in place of or to accompany a smaller salad) along with a piece of dairy cheese and a small glass of milk. Children in public schools had eaten so poorly before the 1920s that children rapidly became mentally and physically healthier in the mid-20th century in the Western world. Of course most people are too stupid, uneducated, or just plain stubborn in the confirmation bias to face facts like this. People had to be taught to eat healthy balanced diets for decades, and vitamin D had to be added to pasteurized milks, while fortified cereals were mass produced to accompany that. There's nothing innately superior about the way people's great-grandparents ate (other than it being more whole foods based and without GMOs and the environmental tragedies of both factory farms in animal ag and monocropping).
@Lewis Blanchard ...correlation does not imply causation. Anyone who doesn't admit that doesn't understand science.
“Meat your demise” 😂
I died 😂
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
My personal story....
I was super athletic when I was younger. I loved sports and running, but I would feel so weighed down after a short amount of time, and I had to be careful because of the constant ankle fractures I would experience. 5 in total. I could not over come it. It really discouraged me to the point that I just stopped. I even let my body go. I really felt bummed for not being the best I could be.
I became vegan about 4 years ago, and my body feels so much more capable than before despite being overweight. I have fallen and rolled my angles here and there... but I recover almost instantly while before I would have to wear a cast for a month.
Why is this important? I loved cheese. Salad, burgers, sandwiches, everything had cheese. Cheese cheese. Cheese!
Now that I am learning how dairy actually increases your chances of bone fractures... i am pissed. PISSED! I would even drink more milk after every fracture thinking I needed more calcium.
Now that I am vegan, I want to get back to working out. I feel like I can break some personal recorded even being as fat as I am.
It's never too late to get in shape. Show those omnivores who's boss!
Stop conflating issues you got from junk food with animal foods. When you lose the weight, your body is going to want quality proteins and fats to rebuild and you aint gonna get that from beans and lentils
@@craggerrs actually, I was a bit of a health nut in my younger years. Fast food was practically a bi monthly 5hing for me, and since my father had suffered from a heart attack when I was a child my mother was stricken on what we ate. Soda was nonexistant as well. Lean meat like chicken and turkey were our choice meat, and water, tea, and coffee were our go to drinks. We even took vitamins religiously.
Junk food was practically a sin in my household growing up. If we were to eat it, again, it was for special occasions. All the more reason why I am so pissed at how everything turned out. Milk and meat, I thought it was essential for my physical wellbeing when in reality it... was severely limiting me.
I suffered from asthma, and I have it under control. I have excema, but it is no where close as painful as it use to be. Beans, Lentils and rice have done more for me than any animal flesh or secretion. And becoming vegan was for a moral stance, not for health. The rewards have been great.
To say I needed to stop eating junk food, and blame my past problems on them is a great lesson to take... problem is that I wasn't eating junk food at all. I was eating the standard "healthy" foods my family doctors and dietitians were suggesting us to eat. Fruits, vegetables, lean meats and grains with small intake of dairy... and still my body feels younger now then in my adolescent years. Sorry, I understand what you are saying. Thing is, was simply not part of my diet. Once I replaced meat with beans and milk with alternatives...i feel younger and stronger.
@h. s I forget - how does meat cause cancer again?? Hilarious indeed.
And why do vegans have only a slightly lower incidence of heart disease if they have completely eradicated the problem food?
macdonald ohhhh you got burned! 😂🙈.
Difficult to break a bone if you're massively overweight sitting on your couch/car/office chair all day long.
Bahahah.. Carnist slugs
@@Seltkirk-ABC what has obesity got to do with meat?
That's why I do it!! And people said it was an unhealthy lifestyle :)
@@AliceRoche-ii2ke Vegans act like obesity is equal to meat eating...
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🐒🐵🦍✅❤️😬🦷💪 1% cancer !!! 99% the same as us !!! 1% cancer in the wild. Scientific fact !!....
Vegan for over 30 years. Have never, ever had a broken or fractured bone in my 70+ years.
Have you ever told the truth??
That's good. I have, after being vegan for only a year. But, that was because I got hit by a truck. Apparently, the driver somehow didn't notice that there was someone in the crosswalk (and yes, I had the walk signal). My neuropathy was acting up, in my right ankle, so I couldn't move fast enough to get out of the way. So, I just turned to the side & put my other arm & leg up in front of me and, when the truck hit, I pressed into it to stop its momentum. It worked, but this also shattered my shin bone & dislocated my shoulder. So, I couldn't get up afterwards & couldn't move that arm at all without screaming bloody murder. I think I scared half that neighborhood that night. Lol! 😄💜😄 Btw, it was just a pickup truck that hit me - not some freaking semi. So, don't go thinking that this would work with a really big truck. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. 😉😬💜😅😄
I was a vegan for 3yrs living my best life loss weight 220-127 runs all days every day until one day it hit me vitamin deficiency costs me bone pain now I must get me meat 🥩 I’ve add to my diet once a week I love me forget the hype
Awesome I would love to get you on my channel. I have a lot of long term vegans I professionally video and interview. You should check out my vegan's stories playlist! Would love to see you in the mix :)
Fat, male vegan here... glad I'm safe... and all the animals I'm not eating or exploiting
206 lb vegan here too. I'm with you!!
I was run over by an SUV (arm and leg). The doctor asked for two other doctors to review the x-rays to make sure he didn't miss a break. Nope, 9,000lbs rolled over me on concrete and nothing broke. Vegan 16 years.
I really want the story behind this 🍿
@@aSyMbolden I was helping my grandfather take the dashboard off of a car so we could fix a wiring problem. I was not aware that the e-brake was faulty. When I lowered the gear shift to pull the dash off, it hit neutral and started rolling down the hill. I was standing outside the frame, so the door hit me down and then the tire ran over my leg and I was able to roll just enough to keep it from going over my hip and torso, but I did so by pushing myself to the left using my right arm which got caught under the tire (hand, elbow, bicep and shoulder) as it rolled back. My grandfather was in the car, and managed to hop over to the driver's seat and hit the brake six inches before the back tires went over a nine foot cliff at the end of the driveway. I hopped up, saw my grandfather was okay and then the world went into pastel colors and I felt like I was floating. By the time I got to the ER my arm and leg were twice their normal size. I got the x-rays, and because nothing was broken, they wouldn't give me any painkillers... And I don't ever take serious medication...I would have taken serious medication. I still managed to get home in time to change into my pocket wocket costume for my friend's Dr. Suess themed murder mystery dinner where I proceeded to drink several bottles of wine. My go-to rhyme was "I need to find the bar, I just got run over by a car " Four people guessed I was the murderer because they didn't realize the blood running part way down my arm was real and not a clue. It was one of my more memorable days.
Hey Mic, I want you to know that I’m thankful for your videos and how well you cite everything. Thank you for being you. You are truly a gem to the vegan community, brother.
I agree. When I saw that headline all over the internet, I decided to wait until Mic looked into it and posted his conclusions. I believe he's always honest and balanced. And I love the humor bits too 😊.
As soon as this study came out, I said to myself, 'Oh I can't wait for Mic to tear into this.'
Me too!! I'm so glad he covered this! Watching it now😄
Same here
It was my first thought, lol.
That's a pretty biased and defensive response. You should be willing to take whatever the data actually says as information as long as it's valid. This turns out to mostly not be valid as a negative of veganism, and the data is not current regarding things that have changed (the vegan diet), but if it had been done earlier, and with more research it could have led to earlier adjustments to certain nutrients in the vegan diet, leading to even better overall health and a better selling point for veganism.
@@SolarScion we should be able to critically review and criticize studies if they are missing data or statistics to back up all of their claims. I read the study myself when it came out and found it to have both good points and bad so I was waiting for Mic to discuss it in better detail.
3 years vegan here, I skate and fall a lot. Still skating, still vegan 💯
When T Colin Campbell broke his hip playing tennis in his 80's the doc said he had some of the strongest bones he'd ever seen. #vegan
imagine saying that to a man with a broken hip...
@@craggerrs "strongest hip i eeeever seen... needa surgery cuz its broke."
Tell that to the vegan Dr McDougall who broke a bunch of bones, including his hip, when he fell down in his bathroom
@@gardenofeels6872 as a 911 paramedic I can tell you that bathrooms are probably the most dangerous places in your house. I seldom get calls of people who have been down the stairs but constantly find broken bones from falls in bathrooms.
What bathrooms has to do with the frailty of bones of Dr. McDougall? Is more likely that elders break bones in the bathrooms? Yeah, I get it, but wasn't he in a better than SAD diet? Wasnt he supposed to have strong bones too? Your anectodal story only serves for strong vegan bones bias? Dr. McDougall looks healthy to you?
You'd think most meat eaters would find veganism more agreeable really, given how naturally cherry picking comes to them.
Julian Belkin Ha Ha ha
I was debating a carnist, and all his "evidence" was cherry picked. He'd cherry pick anything to prove he's right. I wanted to say "if you love cherry picking so much, you should work on a cherry farm" but I didn't get a chance
@@juliusschultz2661 You know that cherry pie you ate for thanksgiving, it required less cherries to pick than your argument.
the irony of this comment is astounding
Bullseye! Good one!
On the breastfeeding point:
Dr Greger mentioned today that estrogen has bone strengthening effects. When a woman is pregnant and then breastfeeding they are rocked with hormones, so I wouldn't be surprised to discover if that has a positive effect on bone density later in life for women.
Also, most women in the meat group had been on Hormone Replacement Therapy at some point in the time period vs a minority of the non-meat group, which would mean they were supplemented with estrogen.
Estrogen definitely has a positive effect on bone density. That's when osteoporosis and osteopenia starts to rear it's ugly head for many women. Men don't have this problem as much, bc testosterone has the same effect as estrogen on bones, doesn't disappear like estrogen does in women.
Another factor is that fat produces estrogen post menopause, vegans tend to have a lower BMI.
I wonder if this estrogen effect is one of the reasons why dairy pushes the "milk is good for the bones" claim. Mind you, it's added estrogen from a pregnant mammal from a different species.
@Sequoiah Dreams Testosterone does indeed decline for men, only it's decline is more of a gentle slope rather than the bumpy ride and cliff of Menopause. Menopause occurs decades earlier for women. The type of estrogen the body produces changes from estradiol to estrone after the ovaries shut down and is synthesized by the adrenals and adipose tissue. Estrone is far less potent than the estradiol produced during women's fertile years. There's nothing blatantly sexist about any of this, it's simply a recognition that there are physiological differences between men and women that can effect their well-being and health. 🌱
@@stephss Yes, cow's milk has tiny amounts of estrogens in it, but my understanding is that the bulk of the estrogen found there consists of biologically inactive estradiol. And that the estrogens are broken down by the digestive process. Otherwise every postmenopausal woman would be lining up to buy it, rather than signing up for HRT. 😊
Milk's notoriety stems largely from it's casein content, some of which which is turned into casomorphin by the digestive processes. Casomorphin being an opiod like substance which can lead to us to wanting more. Great for the calf whose survival depends on growing as fast as possible, not so great for humans who have 24 access to food! 😊
@@laurieparis2203 So I'm confused now. I thought the extra estrogen from dairy products contribute to breast cancer, but now it's believed to be beneficial for bone density?
I broke my wrist about two years ago. German shepherd puppy was running with me and just took me off my feet and I was wear a thick jade bracelet!! My mistake. It totally snapped my bone but healed quickly with no further issues!! I’ve been vegan almost ten years and I’m shocked that people STILL try to argue it’s not healthy!!!! I’m healthier than most people in my life!
I'd rather break a bone than die of heart disease, stroke, cancer or diabetes.
Meat eating causes none of those things.
You have an increased risk of stroke, some cancers, fatty liver disease and bone fractures.
"Mic the Vegan" did a video some time ago about vegan/ vegetarian stroke risk:
"Higher Stroke Risk of Vegans and Vegetarians Debunked"
ruclips.net/video/LFAOdAmGoho/видео.html
@AlmondButter incorrect. Almond butter is more likely to cause heart disease.
We would have not survived a millenia if meat caused heart disease.
@AlmondButter so instead of learning about the science you just take a random persons word for it cause they say what you agree with and you assume they aren’t saying it because they get paid to say it? also small amounts of meat?🤣not a single person would agree with that statement as the majority of food before 10,000 years ago was meat seeing as agriculture on large scales was non existent. also we’ve been eating large amounts of meat for 2 million years. meat has only ever been labeled as a problem when mixed with processed food, high carb and sugar diets. all mechanistic data points to this🙃
@@AliceRoche-ii2ke What did Linda McCartney die of, and the the Bee Gee brother, and other veggies and vegan stars..... most way before retirement age.
Yes! So glad you're covering this.
"I don't even remember what I'm eating right now."
It all makes sense now. I've been vegan 10 years and my bones fracture all the time. - said no one, ever
not many 10 year vegans, that's why. Plenty ex-vegans of a 2 or 3 year stint that report worsening joint problems - I am one
@@craggerrs I am a ten year vegan. An obese, junk food vegan. No joint problems. Not young. And no HBP, diabetes, or anything. 🤷🏻♀️
Edit to add: I know other long term vegans with no health problems. The ex vegans I know are the ones that try extreme vegan diets.
@@celifacejones they try extreme diets in a desperate attempt to make the diet work for them.
@@craggerrs Or they have a messed up relationship with food and carry that over to their plant based diets. E.g. Rawvana, Raw Alignment, etc.
There are plenty of long term vegans and people that have been vegan their entire lives with no health problems. And none that I know of ever turned to extreme versions of plant based diets.
@@celifacejones I can guarantee you it is a desperate attempt to make veganism work. Why aren't these people still experiencing bad health if the disordered eating was the problem?
They, like myself, were all sold on the perils of animal foods and were determined to find the vegan diet that worked for them...you can fixate on the disordered eaters all you want but the reality is that veganism is disordered eating itself.
Our 5year old (vegan since conception) was tested a while back, even though he eats like crap (only way I get anything of substance in him is through sneaking veg - seeds etc into smoothies and ice-lollies), he isn't lacking in anything, and according to dr, his immune and bones are stronger than most children his age.
don't be so weak!!! Make that child as healthy as possible. Posture and diet! YOU CAN DO IT!!!!
@@suchalad he is at the age where kids are super fussy with food. His half brother isn't vegan, and he has heard the brother constantly saying "I don't eat vegetables" 🤦🏻♀️ so for now, smoothies and ice-lollies are where things get loaded into = he is getting what he needs.
That is wonderful, most kids probably want to eat like that. But instilling healthy eating habits is still important (ps. Seeds are so healthy so maybe that is why).
@@carmabee4600 If I was about to switch bodies with that kid. I'd tell you to be less lazy and get it done. Can't let kids walk all over you.
@@carmabee4600 be simultaneously ferocious and graceful
I’m in my late fifties and I’ve been vegan for over 7 years. A couple years ago I tripped on a pothole and fell on the asphalt road without breaking a bone. I also have a healthy thyroid whereas my mother had hypothyroidism. I’m confident that eating a healthy vegan diet is the best way of eating. I’m on no medications and all my health parameters are great. I do workout with weights and I have throughout my life.
I am 62 year old vegan. I had hysterectomy in my early 30s and became high risk for osteoporosis I was told. I didn’t take hormone replacement therapy and was warned that my bones will break like sticks. I breastfed and am not skinny type. I ride bicycle, run, renovate my house mostly myself and because of being active I fall sometimes, but I didn’t brake any bones since my childhood. I had a very thorough blood tests 12 months ago and heard that my results were excellent for my age. When I told the young doctor that I am vegan he looked a bit sheepish but told me to continue doing what I was doing. When I was doing my own research shortly after my hysterectomy and doctors scared sweet bejesus out of me, I discovered that women who are slightly build, Nordic type, blond, with narrow hands and hips have predisposition for osteoporosis genetically. It was known for many decades back. So, if those Oxford scientists chose ladies of this particular type, who additionally didn’t have children, they were going to “win” against vegans for the meat chomping founder of this research. I also discovered when researching osteoporosis that running is an excellent exercise to prevent it. So if you are the lucky vegan girl looking like I always wanted to look when young but didn’t, become the runner for your healthy bones.
I had surgery a couple days ago for a fractured wrist. Being vegan doesn't make you invincible. After 40 years as a vegan I felt pretty invincible. No doctors, no illness, no meds. But Iv'e been very sedentary, not getting much exercise in the last 10 years. After I recover I plan on lifting weights etc. to build stronger bones and muscles. Being vegan will prevent many health problems but if you fall down hard enough you definitely can break something.
Harder, faster, stronger, veganer.
@@MictheVegan That's what she said
I really like your thumbnail. 😆 Irrelevant, but funny.
@@consciousobserver629 Thanks!
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Did they compare people with similar life styles? Because I'm vegan, have been for 10 years, I run, hike, bike and swim, I have fractured my foot and arm before. My 2 omnivore friends haven't but they don't live as active as I do, so they just conclude that I have weaker bones because I'm more active ( also have had bones broken before I became vegan, I have always been active). I know this study applies to women but their case could be the same.
Excellent point! Similar experience. 🌱
Are you underweight due to the high activity Level?
@@LisaCulton my weight is 189 pounds
I have great bone density, higher B12, and vit D than most. Been WFPB (90% of the time) for 5 yrs and 12yrs before that 50% WFPB (felt more pain after training). I test yearly. I'm in far better health than most people in my age range and younger. I have zero pain or health troubles. I feel so good all the time, that's enough for me! I forgot to add that I have no children and practiced Roller Derby for many yrs too. NEVER broke or fracture any bones in my life.
Do you take any supplements?
Dr. Greger says the liver makes vitamin K2 from Vitamin K so eat your greens. Daily kale smoothie - add fruit and fortified soya milk. Taking calcium supplements isn't recommended because of the dose. Too much calcium in one pill.
Mic has a bone to pick with this study.
Overadjustment?
hey I'm your fan. Just commenting here
IDK, does it need an adjustment back also known as a back adjustment?
@@MictheVegan BMI Dunno
@@MictheVegan yep probably 👍
A Red Pilled Adjustment?
I really like that you pointed out the hypocrisy of anti-vegans rejecting epidemiological studies unless it suits their innate feelings.
One thing I think you didn't mention is that there were only ~1,900 vegan subjects in a sample size of 50,000. Given that it was only based on surveys from two decades ago and then one more in 2010, the data itself seems pretty inconsistent and the sample size is way too small and unreliable to draw conclusions from. I'm surprised that a population of this quality and the legitimacy of data collection has been continued for so long considering how inconsistent it is.
If there is a legitimate study that demonstrates vegans are at risk for adverse health events, I'd love to read into that so that we can further the understanding of vegan nutrition. This study doesn't seem to meet the mark and it doesn't explore the possible causes of the higher vegan hip fracture rates. In one part they even adjusted for calcium and protein intake and then concluded that the higher risk factor was related to a lack of protein and calcium intake which is contradictory to the study's own control parameters.
I'm looking forward to seeing the response from others in this field. Either way, wonderful video Mic!
Vegans do the exact same
I’d frame it as: given the multitude of studies showing correlation between plant-based diets and better outcomes, when a study like this comes along from a livestock research team vegans are understandably “highly skeptical”. I agree the sample size is too small and old to be reliable. However, not at all surprised how this made headlines on major media outlets in a coordinated effort. Fits a pattern we’re all too familiar with.
@@rickagfoster there’s plenty of correlations with a balanced diet and having the same outcomes
@@Assassin99584 Positive outcomes yes, but only when compared to the standard American diet. I argue they are not positive to the same degree, I haven't seen any evidence to this effect.
@@rickagfoster if they weren’t positive to the same degree then anyone who wasn’t plant based wouldn’t be healthy for example my bloods have always come back perfect and ive been told that I have no risks of issues due to diet
I'd be interested to see the death rate from hip fractures, vs the death rates from heart attack, stroke and colon cancer. A broken hip is awful, of course. But dead is forever.
Women generally recover from hip fractures, but it tends to be a death sentence for men, 80% dead within a year. I have always wondered how much of that survival difference is psychological. So many men believe being a man means being physically strong. The long healing and physical therapy after a hip fracture might signal to a lot of men that their time of manliness is up. So they give up. Wish someone would do a study on that.
@@broddr men also tend to experience bone density reduction later in life and have shorter lifespans overall the combination of which might contribute to a fractured hip being more likely to correlate with mortality without directly causing it.
So basically the study says that skinny vegans are in trouble. As a fat vegan haha no broken bones for me.
"meat your demise" ... My kind of humor. 👍👍👍
Thanks Mike! The lower BMI and breastfeeding factors do seem very relevant to the findings. It would be interesting to know if vegans heal from bone fractures any faster than omnivores. Since vegans recover from exercise faster, I would hypothesize that we do.
"You can't get me fractures!! You can't get me!!!" 🤣🤣🤣❤️
Love you man, hope you're doin well! Thank you for the consistent inspiration to stay disciplined on a plant-based diet
Great review! Thanks. One issue MIke didn't raise is that the raw (uncorrected) results show the highest overall fracture rates in meat-eaters (0.0048 Fractures/person-year, or 1 fracture in every 207 person-years vs vegans at 0.044 - 1 in 228 years). The lead-author, Dr Tammy Tong, told me that the most important adjustment which reversed this was for age as the vegan group is younger (38.9 years old vs 50.1 for meat-eaters at recruitment on average) but that the correction factors are not published. I asked her whether the age correction factors are fracture site-specific as there is a huge difference in the increase in rates for different fractures but she hasn't replied about that so I suspect that they have not taken this into account. There also appear to be issues about how dietary change over the period since recruitment (greatest for the vegan group with 56% still being vegan at the 2010 follow-up stage) have been taken into account and this could be a major confounder too.
I'll be sure to tell my 50 year old vegan wife not to join any arm wrestling competitions.
Just snap her like a twig.
If she trained for it, she'd probably be more healthy
"Meet your demise" :'''''''''')
I love you Mike. Never stop punning.
Yes, five years on a vegan diet, does rollerderby which my body hits the floor countless times. I must be weak with zero fractures.
Roller derby sounds like fantastic exercise. I bet your lower body and trunk are in top form!
@@SolarScion I'd say they were top form before covid hit. xD
I haven't really done much in 8 -10 months.
Yeah, it's super fun I can't wait until I get to scrim with my buddies again. :D
I appreciate your analysis of this, as always, but the important thing to me is . . . why was this study, using mostly archaic data, released _now?_ Who decided that _now_ was the time? TFP!
Vegan childfree inline skater lady checking in! ✅🛼⛸️🛹
I've been vegan for 10 years and haven't eaten meat in 21. I have been going to punk rock shows and destroying my body in mosh pits for many of those years. Not as many recently due to covid and I am sort of old. I have been injured. I have never broken a bone.
My boss came to me yesterday and told me about this bone fractured increase risk for vegans. thank you Mike,, great timing! much more relieved now!
Never clicked on a link so fast. A family member sent me the article about it and was very smug because they hate veganism.
What did Linda McCartney die of, and the Bee Gee brother, and other veggies and vegan stars..... most way before retirement age.
@@earnestlycontendingforthef5332 what’s your point? People die no matter what they eat. Statistically over large populations you see longer life spans and less morbidity among vegetarian populations and higher rates of cancer and heart disease and diabetes among people who eat more meat. A few people dying young of cancer don’t negate the larger trends you see.
@@idunsgarden .........The point is, it doesn't matter what we eat, Veggie or Flexi.
Some die younger then others irrespective of diet, some over 100 eat eggs and bacon, chocolates, etc, everyday, including drinking whisky and wine.
Much is to do with your genetic pattern. Some are destined for a long life, some quite short in comparison. "Moderation in all things" is a wise course.....
@@earnestlycontendingforthef5332 except we can see in population studies that external factors do matter, not just genetics. Some people will die young no matter what, but what if those vegetarian diets helped them not get cancer at 38 and instead they live another 20 years? What you eat and how you treat your body actually does matter.
These videos are the reason why I constantly come back to your channel!
The first skit was PHENOMENAL!!! You have a gift in comedy, I think!
Your David Attenborough impression 😂 love it!
I can tell from my own experience: I have much more energy since I'm vegan, started heavy weights training and endurance sports - and broke my toe during a stupid stunt.
I wouldn't have had the energy for that back in my meaty days.
Thanks again for your public service Mic! Hopefully someone will "put it to the test" as Dr. Greger is wont to say!
My partner saw something about this and I asked him what he thought and he said that he's waiting for mic the vegan to post about it and I was like same 😂
Same😁
This study had honestly scared me, thank you for clearing that up, you make excellent points. We 're good now.
I breastfed for 5+ years, am I safe?
As long as your eating a proper vegan diet you're as healthy as you can be. You can take supplements if you feel you need them, though vitamins are recommended for any diet as it gives you a boost. But I personally don't take any
@@contoon1563 then why do so many people fail eating the 'proper vegan diet'?
@@BillijeanS442 you are taking a risk - please eat calorie dense animal foods even if it's just a couple days a week. There is not a scrap of evidence to suggest humans can be healthy long term without them. You will be draining your own resources thick and fast without consuming good quality, easy to absorb proteins and fats that only animal foods offer
@@craggerrs um, no.
Since when is "bone fracture" a health metric?! Fat people have higher bone density so they are healthier? Couch-potatoes don't break anything because they are inert, so they are healthier too? If your bone density, vitamin D and B12 are ok, then there is no issue. Do some weight training. This is an awful correlation study.
I'm at a higher risk of bone fractures since going vegan because I lost 55 pounds and I'm now actually fit enough to play tag with a toddler for half an hour straight. Lol. But I guess I was healthier 55 pounds heavier and stationary because bone fractures tho.
I'll go with my own anecdotal evidence. I'm vegan and have never broken a bone
Thank you so much for all the work you put into your videos. I'm so grateful to have them as a resource 💜
In the 4 years I've been vegan, I've never gotten a cold or the flu and never broke any bones or sprained anything (while vegan) despite doing wrestling and getting thrown around a lot. I'm really clumsy too and I got 3 concussions in 2 months just from being clumsy, but that's as far as serious injuries go. Maybe it's just a coincidence though. Or maybe not~
No they do not yet they tell people to drink cow’s milk though.
I've been lucky enough to get significant improvement in joint health by consuming unpasteurised cows milk
@Antifa means Anti FASCIST not if you buy cows milk from a proper farm - the milk I buy certainly isn't fortified. Are you trying to claim that it isn't high in calcium without fortification? Spectacular effort, if so.
You're really fighting the man by promoting the most profitable diet on the planet - the factory farming conglomerates (who have been shown to be pushing plant based alternatives harder than ever) must really be quaking in their boots.
Nah no need to drink it.
Antifa means Anti FASCIST they fortify cow milk? Where? In the US? Here ( 🇩🇪 ) not even most plant milks are fortified 🤣 cows milk has 120mg of natural Calcium per 100ml ... how much do they add? 😱 But well, the good thing is, if u drink cows milk for calcium u need less if it’s fortified 🤣
@Antifa means Anti FASCIST Cows milk (similar to any mammalian milk incl.human breast milk) contain very little vitamin D.
So most milk(If not all) are fortified with vitamin D. Vitamin D is essential for bone metabolism.
I go for the Vegan goth skaters theory lol
when you find out Mic is over 6 feet 🥵
Ikr😫
Here's this vegan's tale. When I was 57 years old, I took a terrible tumble on the street while out running. Joints went out of place. Horrible scrapes and cuts and bruises. Some good samaritans stopped their cars when they saw me sprawled on the concrete, bleeding. They called my wife and everyone poured me into our car. My wife drove me to the emergency room. They patched me up (I looked like a mummy) and x-rayed me up and down. Not one broken bone.
@ 55 years old I fell from on elevation of 2 feet directly onto my hip onto concrete and didn't break anything. On the other hand, xrays did show age-related bone degeneration. I'll have to look into that further. Nerdy person here.
I was literally just waiting for you 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
Hahaha, "You can't get me fractures". I pissed myself on that one
Dr Barnard said something similar about meat eaters being more likely to be overweight and therefore have more padding and a less likely risk of fracture. Also vegans were generally more active which means they're more at risk for getting into accidents that result in fractures. Conclusion: vegans should get fat and stop exercising to prevent bone fracture
Thanks for the video. Can you imagine what positive effect these people would have on the population if they stopped all this stupidity and actually did relevant studies about obesity, diabetes and all the other illnesses that are caused through eating meat and dairy. These dunderheids get me doon.
I thought the gladiator bones were like steel 100's years after death. For myself, I fell down concrete steps last year, and nothing broke.
Great video! Though in regards to workouts I believe the research showed the vegans exercised more than any other group. Didn’t say what type of exercise and how the bone fractures came about which seems to be a confounding variable.
This summer I've had a bicycle accident and I broke my elbow badly [fracture with displacement, ambulance was taking me to the er]. I had a surgery and wires put in right the next day. But everyone, literally everyone [surgeon, phisiotherapist] is surpraised how quickly I healed and returned to my full mobility which rarely happends in the elbow area. I'm in my 40s. I was skipping the pain killers bacause I didn't need so many that they normally prescribe.
Never, ever, stop talking about booty. Follow your heart.
Follow your booty! Wait..
Some of the fiercest warriors in history, the Gladiators, were predominantly vegetarian.
Pretty sure their bones must have been fairly strong, considering the abnormally high stress & abuse they had to withstand.
why are carnists so afraid of plants??? But are so willing to flavor the flesh of dead animals with it???
gladiators were slaves being trained for bloodsports - the fact they were fed vegan proves that even then they knew how important meat was for health
@@craggerrs, Yet they survived quite well, they didn't die from lack of meat, they died in battle.
And I said vegetarian, not vegan.
It shows meat is 'not' important for either health or strength.
@@craggerrs, nutritionfacts.org/video/the-gladiator-diet-how-vegetarian-athletes-stack-up/
@@craggerrs that comment makes no sense.
Thanks Mic the Vegan! I've been waiting for this. :)
I literally fell down the stair case last month on my knees and smashed into the wall. No broken bones, fractures, or sprains. I was thoroughly bruised though. After 4 years as a vegan. I am suprised I haven't still have never broken or sprained anything my entire life.
Thank you so much for covering this! 🙌🏽💚
How about the higer risk to have stroke, diabetes, etc... they dont say that. Even if that were true for me its a law risk for the hig risk of hurt an animal, animals are not food.
why dont you care about field mice? pigeons? hogs? deer? killed on mass for your plant food and then left to rot in the field
@@craggerrs The animals we eat actually use a lot more land and kills "mice" a lot more in the process.
@@Acdhcup267 grass fed ruminants which I eat kill almost no field mice, pigeons, hogs and deer. Cope harder
@@craggerrs oh you only eat red meat and not any chiken, pork, eggs or dairy?
@@Acdhcup267 Almost - but my point is that if I wanted to espouse an 'ethical diet' then I could and would do just that and it would be far more ethical than a vegan diet which propagates rapacious farming practices and lines the pockets of the very same people who invented the factory farming of animals...
I have eaten only red meat for extended periods of time (in an attempt to heal the damages done by my time without it) and I honestly never felt better but its almost as inconvenient as the vegan diet so I stopped.
Your work is amazing, and extremely important! Thank you!
Also just joined your Patreon!
Great video Mic. You may remember that I am Jordi Casamitjana, the guy who secured the legal protection of ethical vegans in the UK. I wanted to let you know that I just published my book "Ethical Vegan: a personal and political journey to change the world", and I actually mention you in it.
Thanks for clarifying mate! Love your work
The day after I went vegan I broke every bone in my body trying to get out of bed....
Debunk that Mic
That is horrible timing.
After I went vegan I developed glass bones and paper skin. Every morning I break my legs, and every afternoon I break my arms. At night, I lie awake in agony until my heart attacks put me to sleep.
My joints got a lot worse whwn I was vegan
@@craggerrs got hooked on oreos right? lol
Was your bed perhaps on the roof of your building, and you accidentally stepped off?
First of all, great response video!! Thanks so much for all the content you put out there!
Also, I was wondering, could you make a response video to one of Thomas Delauer’s carnivore diet videos (or general how he praises high meat keto diets)?
Thank you for this video, Mic!
As a 61-year-old vegan I fractured a bone in my foot last year while doing an 8-hour ultramarathon. I tripped on a rock on a very steep trail descent and my ankle twisted and I went down hard. I did manage to get to the finish line, but the next day my foot was really swollen so the doctor ordered an x-ray. Sure enough - a small fracture in my 5th metatarsal bone. I did heal fast enough to do a 50-miler in February (before Covid) though. Maybe I'm getting too old for these kinds of events?
I remember learning when I was pregnant that during pregnancy and breastfeeding, a woman is able to absorb calcium and increase her bone mineral density significantly better than during any other time in her life. Wish I remember where I read that.
Mic carrying vegan RUclips right now with this video...
I fractured my hand a year before I went vegan. I didn’t fracture my hand _after_ I went vegan. Maybe it has to do with how much more physical activities vegans partake in?
- This study's sample is white British persons consuming as little fiber as standard junky diet(20g of fiber).
- Only 51% of vegans took supplement (so their B12?) Which is even less than meat-eaters(55%).
- even adjusted for protein still higher bonne fracture so proteins are irrelevant and almost same for calcium intake.
- the higher bone fracture is only significant for women (so what do vegan white British women do that other do not?)
- higher bone fracture is also only significant for BMI lower than 22,5.
CONCLUSION:
So white thin British vegan women with low fiber intake that, for most of them, do not supplement should be more careful regarding bone fracture risk. They could try increasing their BMI to healthy level(>19) but it is not always the best health-wise as it goes with other risks sometimes.
What about very low BMI possibly skewing the data? Because very high BMI from meat eater were more likely to be excluded by design: I am indeed curious about the exclusion from the sample of the "participants with prior diseases (baseline history of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, or cancer), excluding participants, who were receiving long-term treatment for any illness..." these weaker excluded participants seems probably less likely to be vegans.
The reporting about this research has been questionable at best. A better title for their articles would be:"a vegan diet in the 90's had a 43% more chance of fractures"
I read the research that's why I say this; The researchers did not at any point claim that their research does apply at vegan diets now. They argue in their conclusion that because a vegan diet in the past had this issue it is justified to look at vegan diets now and research that they have the same issue.
Thank you, as always straight to the point, the science.
The study was done from the 90s and early 2000's where people didn't drink much plant milk or any fortified food supplemented with calcium at all. In this day and age, I don't think it's much of an issue for vegans to get enough calcium.
Thanks for posting this! Great sleuthing and insight.
Legit been YouTubing "vegan fractures" everyday waiting for your response video 😂
I'm a bit confused though: Greger says K2 isn't a problem whereas Garth Davis says it may be
I haven't (yet) seen Dr. Davis' piece but I have an idea why Dr. Greger doesn't see K2 as a problem: he puts a strong emphasis on leafy greens, which Garth does not emphasize *as much* IIRC
@@ConductiveFoam Greger says they found out in 2010 that the body synthesizes K2 so we don't have to consume it in our food.
I think the main reason Garth Davis says this is because there has been quite little (reliable) research on K2, so he doesn't want to jump to conclusions. I could be wrong though
Aside from increased estrogen being protective as Mike pointed out, there's another very simple explanation in the mix as well - vegans tend to be more physically active than non vegans are, in exercise as part of self care. More physical activity and sport leads to increased chance of injuries (not critical ones). Not rocket science, yet not mentioned in the vid...
Lastly too: 'vegan diet' can mean a whole bunch of junk food. It's not an indicator by itself of health - the study is very flawed in that sense. A whole food plant based diet, long term, is a better one.
Can't see researchers grasping these points yet. Too inconvenient sadly for their hypotheses.
With no adjustments because 147 fracture events is far to small to do that you have vegetarians with the lowest rate of fracture at 5.5%.
Before your video there was a commercial saying to loose weight and get healthy has nothing to do with being Vegan
I've been checking RUclips regularly to see if you've covered this. Thanks so much!
Finally, Mic has arrived to tell you how think - THANKS MIC
@@craggerrs LOL! I wouldn't quite put it like that. But thanks to him it can be easier to find specific studies real quick in order to read and compare findings from different studies. ;)
Bruh, you make very good quality informative videos. I Just gotta say🌱
Mic knows More than Oxford and their whole esteemed research staff.
Great analysis of the study, Mic!
Honestly, the BMI effect is likely the most significant causal factor, especially since the study cohort is 80% women. If they don't have a regular menstrual cycle, they won't get the needed estrogenic protection for their bones.