David Vizard has always done exactly what you do on dynos since the 1980:s he is a British engineer. He figured out Back then, a large area K&N filter, flowed the best over these style carburetor s He is still in Cali, still Dyno testing motors. Can even be found on you tube. He has written a ton of Automotive Engineer books . Which is the only way to get a quick answer from him ( because you can read at your own pace. He is a slow speaking engineering type. But a very thorough researcher.
@@richardholdener1727 also worth checking out a guy called David Baker. Vizard and him are friends, both VERY knowledgeable with decades of experience.
Cool to see someone mention Vizard, he's one of those geniuses that gets no attention for his work and has always been at the top of the game. Also reminds me of Joe Sherman, the undisputable Kind of budget horsepower.
A free-flowing, through top, K&N will offer little or no resistance to air flow. With the ITB the same can be accomplished at an astronomical expense, aesthetics notwithstanding!
This is pretty rad! I for one, would love to see a back to back to back comparison of EFI stack injection, mechanical stack injection, and quad Webers. Just to help possibly answer lingering questions about the benefits/drawbacks of various individual runner intake systems.
So I’m other words not worth it. 3k for a 50ib increase? Only thing I see worth is the badass look it gives. The borla 8 stack is 5-7k…. With that money you can get way more hp and tq investing it into heads and other goodies
I’m just glad no one besides me can hear what goes on inside my head...especially when I argue with myself...much less with internet experts. Funny skit 👍
Without a doubt Richard is the best. I have been reading and watching his stuff for years and I always enjoy his take on things plus he has so much knowledge that smart people will know to listen to what he says. Dumb people will argue and question him but they have no background like he does. I have done a lot of engines and cars in my time and fully appreciate what he tells us. You can learn a lot from this man, please pay attention. Thank you Richard for yet again another revealing video.
Holly crap, I watch as many videos as I can by you, love the way you do things I don’t usually comment, due to people always having something to say about it and sometimes not having a clue . But when I saw this posted I thought to myself uh oh Richard is gonna run this stack setup against a dual plane intake , and of coarse it’s gonna make more power. But then you did what amazed me , you did what Richard does and mentioned how hard these are to tune for normal non full race drivability! Thank you mr holdner , sorry I started to loose a little faith in you. And thank you for all you do!
Richard, really like your videos and appreciate your insights. One major thing to consider with individual throttle bodies is the sound. Obviously most v8s that you test have great exhaust note which dominates the sound experience, but for me, I've become obsessed with the noise that can come out the front of the car from induction resonance. Bare stacks will sound really good, but encasing them in a huge plenum that vibrates a lot (ideally carbon fiber) is the uper echelon of the sound experience. Definitely check out the McLaren F1, the BMW e30 M3 DTM racer, the BMW e46 M3 CSL, and the Lexus LFA. I bet the trophy trucks you mentioned have a bit of it too. The exhaust sounds great on all those cars listed, but the sound experience is dominated by the induction noise. Not sure how many V8 hot rodders would go that far, but it is definitely untapped sound joy if you are splurging for ITB. My dream is to fit a Jenvey ITB system (like what is on the Driftworks DW86) to my LS3 project and fabricate my own carbon fiber sound cannons.
I don't care it looks so darn cool. Besides, back in my day we ran L-88 air cleaner that was installed in the hood the carb horn sealed when the hood was down. Pulling cool high pressure air from the base of the windshield???
I'm already fabricating in my mind a billet bottom plate that would allow you to keep the stacks, and use say a large oval air filter from the Air Grabber Mopar, and a top high enough above the stacks to not impede airflow and allow the radius of each stack to do its job. To take full advantage of the potential airflow, I would also try and double stack the filters and turn some standoffs on the lathe to keep the filters from collapsing when tightening the top. BTW, thank you for not putting a larger carb than a 650 on that combo. T.S. RACING
Something that's intrigued me about ITB setups has been the supposed power differences between short, mid, and long trumpets. I've always understood how changing the length of the intake runners effects the power band because of the resonance wave between the valve and the throttle blade, but no one has explained how or why it can change with different length trumpets. They only effect the air before the throttle.
You compared the ITB with the screens to the carb without a filter. Why didn't you put a filter on the carb to get a better apples to apples comparison?
If you want to retain the appearance use a big airbox made out of clear sheet plastic. Alternatively use just one big throttle body on an intake plenum, the most practical solution.
Nick dino'ed a Chevy 400 with a 750 Holley, the engine gained 4hp when swapped with a 650 Holley, the engine only pulled 496cfm with BOTH carbs. Hp was 411hp with 445tq..
I bought a scooter that been ran without a filter, I guess it was sold because it stopped running, it didn't have enough compression to run, that and the carb was full of fine grit, it was like it was sand blasted, even the valve seats were trashed, I rebuilt it, gained 32cc, and running a pod, K&N style filter, filters are important! Especially if it's a large high revving engine! Flowing alot of air, maybe something similar to a motorcycle filter can be used on the stacks, only much larger, and made like a K&N filter, maybe attach it to the hood, so you see the stack injection when its open!!
I wonder what Richard's dog would make of him yelling at the computer. Arf? The undies on the head is a good look. Put a plexiglas filter box on the ITB's. Or those Oval four cylinder filter setups.
A 650 carb is perfectly fine for a 350. My buddy runs a 650 edelbrock on a 460 big block ford. It does just fine for that truck. I run an 850 Demon on my 400 small block race car but thats a whole other ball game. Never dynod the car but were estimating it makes around 450-475hp with about 510-520 ft-lbs. Its a screamer for only running 10:1 compression
Rick, Rickey, and Dick give me a headache. Great comparo Richard. Stuff I've always wanted to see. Yeah, screens are horribly restrictive. Screen material on a window blocks 50% of the air!
Did you run a air cleaner on the 650 Holley? If not put a air cleaner on it and run the dyno again and see how much HP that the Carb combo loses. Great video.
you should do a carbureted air cleaner test as well to see how much of a difference small vs larger air cleaners vs no air cleaner, i guess also for a FI motor would be useful
How can you make a video about ITB or "stack" injection, comparing it to common carb, WITHOUT mentioning the #1 reason to switch to ITB (throttle response)?
Hey Richard , love your videos. i am actually dealing with one of these setups run by a FAST XFi setup and need to sinc the throttle blades. any tips would be great but i honestly hope i get them sorted before i see your reply. i will just apply your tips to the next set up. Thanks great video.
Id go with the large box type hes talking about like this one. kinsler.com/Shop/product/kn-carbon-fiber-air-box-assembly-for-v8-base-not-cut-for-ramtubes/
I have been intrigued with the Speedmaster Stack FI and was excited to see your test. I have always heard on weber carbs that the filtration was always an issue (to be fair, a small issue compared to tuning the carbs). One question I had: did you run a filter on the carb on the dyno? If not, seems like an unfair comparison. It would be interesting to see a run with them filter vs. filter.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't use a filter on the conventional card either. So its safe to assume the same losses would happen, and then stack injection is still ahead.
Like these test you do on itb stack injection - there's better options for air cleaner you should test like from pipercross and ramair and you still get to show off the stacks :)
Thanks for the IR combo testing, Ive been bugging the EM guys to do this same test. I was wondering with all the dirt cheap chinese IDF and IDA carbs on the market now how about a test comparing IR FI to IR carb? Hard to beat $300 for 8 throttle plates (4 48mm IDF carbs)!!!
I messed up my first one. Sorry, I shall reiterate. About 270 degrees duration, with a little port work in the bowl and on the bias will really wake this beastie up. Keep the same lift and LSA, and using waisted-stem valves with knock your socks off. The ram affect produced by an IR intake really comes into its own at the mid-lift to full-open, making it a natural supercharger.
Great video, thank you! Well done. I would love to see a dualplane (Performer) with a high-rise dual plane (Performer RPM) with a low profile single plane (Torker II) with a high rise single plane (Victor JR) with a Tunnel Ram. Would the longer runner of the Torker II and Tunnel Ram help boost low-end torque?
Richard Holdener Ahh, I did not know that. So then continue, lol i don’t know much about carburetors. Keep up the great content, seems I learn something new every video!
Always good to see the numbers, now… longer taller stacks, like those used in 60’s drag cars. Lest we forget the cross ram Chrysler manifolds and tunnel rams! Still waiting on the piston dodge flip episode, expect marginal to no HP gains but better RPM response. Ran a 360 magnum series engine this way for 100k and know what I felt, no dyno numbers, waiting for time to do a tear down and inspection and hopefully just a freshen up of the engine.
If you put a big air cleaner on the carburetor it would also lose some power. I'm guessing the spread would again be about fifteen horsepower compared to the filtered individual runner stacks.
Hey Richard is it possible if we could talk about ecus and tunes and computers to run this all? From cams to turbos to nitrous, the thing that I see missing from the videos and my information on how to run a similar horsepower is the ecm that runs it all.
Please could you compare carb filters with regard to stock vs. round filter with a filtered top hat?? I have either read or saw a video that the filtered top hats or covers allows straight in air flow that results in more power. Also, did you filter the cab air in your tests (i missed that part of the discussion)?
Those inline Autolite carbs worked really well with the better airflow and mixture distribution - until the cars went into a corner (they were born back in Trans Am racing days) - and for some reason Ford abandoned them instead of working out the fuel slosh problem.
@@Motor-City-Mike The fact that the SCCA disallowed them for Trans Am use didn't help. And as I understand it the whole point of the inline carb was runner optimization with the spacing on the carb matching the intake port spacing on the Boss 302 heads. When these showed up at the start of the 70 season the SCCA had instituted a rules change for A Sedan (the basis for Trans Am) that disallowed multiple carburation.
Love your vids man. I have 3 questions. First, whats the driveability like on these electronic Holborn setups. Second, does adding plenum volume on the bottom side of the throttle plate increase performance in any way. Also, does a narrower plenum increase low end power, similar to runners in a head
driveabilty is a function of tune-it can be jumpy from having so much throttle opening, not sure how you add plenum volume below the throttle plates on an IR system, no on the plenum question
Only thing I can figure is, he is trying to bring the price of the injection system into perspective. Those have always been much much more than the average build deserves...
Looks bad ass, sounds great but if running the screens to keep some longevity to the motor you just spent thousands on gives you about the same performance is it worth the price difference cause those things are kinda pricy, would've liked to see the price points in this video
Slight critism: it would be great to see what happens from 1500/2000 rpm. For those like me who are more interested on road driving/bottom end torque. But a very good video!
@@davidwarland2680 I have been around quad webered road race cars, both downdraft and side draft for decades,, and none will pull the skin of custard under 3500. Most have been replaced with a single 4bbl. Simpler, cheaper, more reliable. Though strictly speaking historic cars using more modern intakes and Holleys are not kosher. And sidedraft Webbers do not like rough roads either as they 'flood up' And I have been playing with triple DCOEs on road race cars, speedway cars and off road cars for over 40 years
If that 650 is a good carb it's plenty but with all the other parts upgraded u can go up on the carb and it will run like a rapped ape in high school my dad's friend sold me a 383 with a holly 8-something carb it was rebuilt by the carb shop but it ran so good when I sold it that person was happy to so it's all about everything working well together that's my opinion
Funny i have a 355 sbc with a big cam, edelbrock aluminum heads that are ported, edelbrock h122 supercharger at 8psi. I run a quickfuel 850 dp blower carb and its still technically too big up to 5500 rpm. Flows 870 cfm at 6500rpm on the chip.
What happened to the 225 slant 6 leaning tower of power you got back a couple months ago. I have been looking forward to see what you are going to do to it for power
Years ago I ran a Holley 850 double pumper on my bored 283 with healthy cam. But I recall someone did a test on a couple of different muscle cars using Holley carbs from 650 through 850 and sometimes a 700 or 750 worked better. However any decent FI should beat a carb.
@@richardholdener1727 wow that's counterintuitive. My quick google and youtube search didnt dig anything up. Do you know if it's slight air fuel adjustment from pressure drop, more laminar flow into the carb, or something crazy like intake pulses seeing distance to the filter as runner length. Thanks for shareing you knowledge.
I just bought 2 44mm Honda CBR1000rr fuel injection throttle sets for my explorer motor with ported Twisted wedge heads and an f cam. I think I'm going solid roller lifters, and die cast high energy 1.6 rockers. I need to figure out if I'm porting and re-using the GT40 lower manifold, or fabricating my own. I need to figure out what my redline should be... Stop tempting me!
@@richardholdener1727 uuum, I think the 'hydraulic roller' f cam will have a gentler profile that when combined with solid roller lifters will let me rev the motor a little higher before valve float. Blame engines be masters?
lets say you already have a sbchevy with a well sorted 4barrel and dual plane, now if you go with a set up like this refi stack injection what kind of gas mileage would it deliver compared to the dual plane? would it be worth it?
Keep in mind total cfm on a shared intake V an I.R. intake is quite different. If it had a 2000cfm carb on a shared intake it would be a dog, if the IR were rediced to a total of 650 cfm it would make no power! You need to think in loose terms of 'what cfm is available to each cylinder'.
@@8power857 That's a very keen observation. Airflow through each stack is intermittent, and other cylinders cannot share a stack. I was not thinking it through. Thanks for your insight sensei. 👍👍👍
I was just watching some Steve Tech videos with Steve Morrison, and one that grabbed my attention was about hydraulic roller lifters vs solid roller lifters. One thing he mentioned was that it's a possibility to run a solid roller with the hydraulic roller camshaft. Have you done anything yet on this. I was wondering what kind of difference in power you would see with something mild, like the combination you used right here in this video. I had seen a couple of other guy's videos that mention that the maintenance isn't as big of a issue with the milder stockish/mild performance camshafts. More or less, being more streetable, and somewhat reliable. Thoughts?
I don't really see a reason to run a solid lifter with a hyd cam on a mild application-we have run solid lifters on hyd roller cams on BBC applications and it works just fine
@@richardholdener1727 but why? is it for more radical cams and the hydraulic has softer ramp up on and off the seat? as I'm building a BBC with a small 250 supercharger thanks. love the stacks vid to be fair the carb should of had a run with a filter too but I get it . Cheers from Australia
@@r0bkills choose what lifter you want to run and buy the appropriate cam. Lobe profiles vary A LOT , i have fitted street solid rollers with less aggressive lobes than many of the gnarly hydro rollers, there is no need or magic. The basic big difference is the lash ramp, if you run solid lifters on the hydro cam youneed to ensure your lash setting falls within the lash ramp. Also the lobe profile will no longer reflect the spec of the cam as lash or lack of it alters what you see at the valve. Yes it can be done, solid on hydro or hydro on solid but no point if starting from scratch.
Richard, how would you say butterfly position affects the characteristics? I.e. longer runner before the butterfly VS longer runner after the butterfly.
i just purchased the streetmaster stack EFI kit and they dont come with injectors...and cust serv is useless...can you tell me what injectors you are running in this setup...thanks
Have you or would you consider a back to back test concerning reversing piston orientation to see if piston offset makes a horsepower difference. I know Smokey Yunick did it, but dyno results would verify results ve Butt Dyno. Thank you Richard. Always enjoy and learn...
Regarding air filter, has anyone ever tried to compare no filter vs using one of the sprint car filters? Its the tall rectangle filter fits right over the stacks.
This is the second best intake manifold, behind the belt-driven intake manifold.
Belt driven manifolds are king
Cross ram Mopar wedge manifold are pretty baller!
I’m a big fan of the belt driven manifolds.
I'd rather bolt a hairdryer to the exhaust manifold.
@@hudsondonnell444
The spinning exhaust manifold is the best kind of exhaust manifold.
David Vizard has always done exactly what you do on dynos since the 1980:s he is a British engineer. He figured out Back then, a large area K&N filter, flowed the best over these style carburetor s
He is still in Cali, still Dyno testing motors. Can even be found on you tube. He has written a ton of Automotive Engineer books . Which is the only way to get a quick answer from him ( because you can read at your own pace. He is a slow speaking engineering type. But a very thorough researcher.
THNX-I'VE SPOKEN TO DAVID MANY TIMES-HE IS THE GOODS
@@richardholdener1727 also worth checking out a guy called David Baker. Vizard and him are friends, both VERY knowledgeable with decades of experience.
Cool to see someone mention Vizard, he's one of those geniuses that gets no attention for his work and has always been at the top of the game.
Also reminds me of Joe Sherman, the undisputable Kind of budget horsepower.
You didn't mention the 3rd reason for going with ITBs, THE SOUND!
Oh yes sounds amazing.
Also throttle response is from another level
You do a dyno with screens in the stacks and then say its basically the same as the carb. But then you don't do a carb pull with an air filter. 🤦
A free-flowing, through top, K&N will offer little or no resistance to air flow. With the ITB the same can be accomplished at an astronomical expense, aesthetics notwithstanding!
This is pretty rad! I for one, would love to see a back to back to back comparison of EFI stack injection, mechanical stack injection, and quad Webers. Just to help possibly answer lingering questions about the benefits/drawbacks of various individual runner intake systems.
I run 8 stacks EFI an a 452 cu. in FE Ford. Made 600 ft.lbs on the dyno, up 50 from the Victor intake with 850 holley. Peak HP was about the same.
The stack sounds awesome also.
So I’m other words not worth it. 3k for a 50ib increase? Only thing I see worth is the badass look it gives. The borla 8 stack is 5-7k…. With that money you can get way more hp and tq investing it into heads and other goodies
I’m just glad no one besides me can hear what goes on inside my head...especially when I argue with myself...much less with internet experts. Funny skit 👍
I scare myself..."we" just had a go round about my roll bar install that would have got me commited !
Without a doubt Richard is the best. I have been reading and watching his stuff for years and I always enjoy his take on things plus he has so much knowledge that smart people will know to listen to what he says. Dumb people will argue and question him but they have no background like he does. I have done a lot of engines and cars in my time and fully appreciate what he tells us. You can learn a lot from this man, please pay attention. Thank you Richard for yet again another revealing video.
Holly crap, I watch as many videos as I can by you, love the way you do things I don’t usually comment, due to people always having something to say about it and sometimes not having a clue . But when I saw this posted I thought to myself uh oh Richard is gonna run this stack setup against a dual plane intake , and of coarse it’s gonna make more power. But then you did what amazed me , you did what Richard does and mentioned how hard these are to tune for normal non full race drivability! Thank you mr holdner , sorry I started to loose a little faith in you. And thank you for all you do!
Sorry I spelled your last name wrong in my quest to give you respect.. lol
Richard, really like your videos and appreciate your insights. One major thing to consider with individual throttle bodies is the sound. Obviously most v8s that you test have great exhaust note which dominates the sound experience, but for me, I've become obsessed with the noise that can come out the front of the car from induction resonance. Bare stacks will sound really good, but encasing them in a huge plenum that vibrates a lot (ideally carbon fiber) is the uper echelon of the sound experience. Definitely check out the McLaren F1, the BMW e30 M3 DTM racer, the BMW e46 M3 CSL, and the Lexus LFA. I bet the trophy trucks you mentioned have a bit of it too. The exhaust sounds great on all those cars listed, but the sound experience is dominated by the induction noise. Not sure how many V8 hot rodders would go that far, but it is definitely untapped sound joy if you are splurging for ITB.
My dream is to fit a Jenvey ITB system (like what is on the Driftworks DW86) to my LS3 project and fabricate my own carbon fiber sound cannons.
I don't care it looks so darn cool. Besides, back in my day we ran L-88 air cleaner that was installed in the hood the carb horn sealed when the hood was down. Pulling cool high pressure air from the base of the windshield???
I'm already fabricating in my mind a billet bottom plate that would allow you to keep the stacks, and use say a large oval air filter from the Air Grabber Mopar, and a top high enough above the stacks to not impede airflow and allow the radius of each stack to do its job. To take full advantage of the potential airflow, I would also try and double stack the filters and turn some standoffs on the lathe to keep the filters from collapsing when tightening the top.
BTW, thank you for not putting a larger carb than a 650 on that combo.
T.S. RACING
Something that's intrigued me about ITB setups has been the supposed power differences between short, mid, and long trumpets. I've always understood how changing the length of the intake runners effects the power band because of the resonance wave between the valve and the throttle blade, but no one has explained how or why it can change with different length trumpets. They only effect the air before the throttle.
its all runner length-changes arrival of reflected wave
I learn something EVERY time I watch your video's Brother, Thank you!
You compared the ITB with the screens to the carb without a filter. Why didn't you put a filter on the carb to get a better apples to apples comparison?
Finally.. Richard told Richard what step up actually means. Someone had to!
:)
If you want to retain the appearance use a big airbox made out of clear sheet plastic. Alternatively use just one big throttle body on an intake plenum, the most practical solution.
So why doesn't someone make one enclosed in clear plastic? The new C8 needs that
A filter on the carburated setup would also reduce power...
Nick dino'ed a Chevy 400 with a 750 Holley, the engine gained 4hp when swapped with a 650 Holley, the engine only pulled 496cfm with BOTH carbs. Hp was 411hp with 445tq..
I bought a scooter that been ran without a filter, I guess it was sold because it stopped running, it didn't have enough compression to run, that and the carb was full of fine grit, it was like it was sand blasted, even the valve seats were trashed, I rebuilt it, gained 32cc, and running a pod, K&N style filter, filters are important! Especially if it's a large high revving engine! Flowing alot of air, maybe something similar to a motorcycle filter can be used on the stacks, only much larger, and made like a K&N filter, maybe attach it to the hood, so you see the stack injection when its open!!
I wonder what Richard's dog would make of him yelling at the computer.
Arf?
The undies on the head is a good look.
Put a plexiglas filter box on the ITB's.
Or those Oval four cylinder filter setups.
I had 3 two barrel side draft Webbers on a Z car with velocity stacks, fuel economy was not good but they sounded great and the engine loved to rev.
Form follows function . You get more power from multi port , for racing fine , with filters for street use not so much , and now the cost .
A 650 carb is perfectly fine for a 350. My buddy runs a 650 edelbrock on a 460 big block ford. It does just fine for that truck. I run an 850 Demon on my 400 small block race car but thats a whole other ball game. Never dynod the car but were estimating it makes around 450-475hp with about 510-520 ft-lbs. Its a screamer for only running 10:1 compression
Rick, Rickey, and Dick give me a headache. Great comparo Richard. Stuff I've always wanted to see. Yeah, screens are horribly restrictive. Screen material on a window blocks 50% of the air!
not surprised at all. another great comparison !!!
Did you run a air cleaner on the 650 Holley? If not put a air cleaner on it and run the dyno again and see how much HP that the Carb combo loses. Great video.
there is no loss
Thanks
I've always said if more is better too much is just right. This rule applies equally well to cams, carbs, rear gears, ect.
you should do a carbureted air cleaner test as well to see how much of a difference small vs larger air cleaners vs no air cleaner, i guess also for a FI motor would be useful
How can you make a video about ITB or "stack" injection, comparing it to common carb, WITHOUT mentioning the #1 reason to switch to ITB (throttle response)?
Hey Richard , love your videos. i am actually dealing with one of these setups run by a FAST XFi setup and need to sinc the throttle blades. any tips would be great but i honestly hope i get them sorted before i see your reply. i will just apply your tips to the next set up. Thanks great video.
we use a unisync
Are you going to try different length air horns on it? I'd like to see the results. Also what about an oval filter designed to cover all the stacks?
Id go with the large box type hes talking about like this one. kinsler.com/Shop/product/kn-carbon-fiber-air-box-assembly-for-v8-base-not-cut-for-ramtubes/
take a look at the other IR tests (5.7l Hemi)-I played with stack length
I have been intrigued with the Speedmaster Stack FI and was excited to see your test. I have always heard on weber carbs that the filtration was always an issue (to be fair, a small issue compared to tuning the carbs). One question I had: did you run a filter on the carb on the dyno? If not, seems like an unfair comparison. It would be interesting to see a run with them filter vs. filter.
my thoughts exactly
a good air cleaner on the carb can actually add power
@@richardholdener1727 so can a good air box for the ITB's but i understand the carbs are simpler so naturally there would be a preference to them
Correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't use a filter on the conventional card either. So its safe to assume the same losses would happen, and then stack injection is still ahead.
a filter on the carb set up has no effect on power
Like these test you do on itb stack injection - there's better options for air cleaner you should test like from pipercross and ramair and you still get to show off the stacks :)
Now that's a cool intake!
I know which one looks like a 1960's racer, and I'll take that.
Thanks for the IR combo testing, Ive been bugging the EM guys to do this same test.
I was wondering with all the dirt cheap chinese IDF and IDA carbs on the market now how about a test comparing IR FI to IR carb? Hard to beat $300 for 8 throttle plates (4 48mm IDF carbs)!!!
I messed up my first one. Sorry, I shall reiterate.
About 270 degrees duration, with a little port work in the bowl and on the bias will really wake this beastie up. Keep the same lift and LSA, and using waisted-stem valves with knock your socks off. The ram affect produced by an IR intake really comes into its own at the mid-lift to full-open, making it a natural supercharger.
Don't forget all of the crazy high-tech carburetors like catalytic carburetors, feedback carburetors, constant vacuum carburetors, etc...
The only hitech carb is a lectron
Great video, thank you! Well done. I would love to see a dualplane (Performer) with a high-rise dual plane (Performer RPM) with a low profile single plane (Torker II) with a high rise single plane (Victor JR) with a Tunnel Ram. Would the longer runner of the Torker II and Tunnel Ram help boost low-end torque?
Think you should have ran a filter/screen element on the carburetor as well.
Made it more of a comparable test, great video none the less!
FILTER CAN HELP THE CARB
Richard Holdener Ahh, I did not know that. So then continue, lol i don’t know much about carburetors. Keep up the great content, seems I learn something new every video!
Always good to see the numbers, now… longer taller stacks, like those used in 60’s drag cars. Lest we forget the cross ram Chrysler manifolds and tunnel rams!
Still waiting on the piston dodge flip episode, expect marginal to no HP gains but better RPM response. Ran a 360 magnum series engine this way for 100k and know what I felt, no dyno numbers, waiting for time to do a tear down and inspection and hopefully just a freshen up of the engine.
Long tube spacers to bring torque harmonic down to lower speed driving range
You should look at harrops stacks. Very expensive but looks and sounds so good
I would like to see you put Weber's on that manifold and see how much HP it would make
Me to
If you put a big air cleaner on the carburetor it would also lose some power. I'm guessing the spread would again be about fifteen horsepower compared to the filtered individual runner stacks.
the air cleaner on the carb motor can actually help
@@richardholdener1727 I think it's time for a test. While the base helps direct air toward the carburetor, the filter element is a restriction.
Hey Richard is it possible if we could talk about ecus and tunes and computers to run this all? From cams to turbos to nitrous, the thing that I see missing from the videos and my information on how to run a similar horsepower is the ecm that runs it all.
Sweet. I’m putting a mechanical Hilborn 8 stack on a 598 BBC
Please could you compare carb filters with regard to stock vs. round filter with a filtered top hat?? I have either read or saw a video that the filtered top hats or covers allows straight in air flow that results in more power. Also, did you filter the cab air in your tests (i missed that part of the discussion)?
Now do 4 down or side draft Webers 🤯 And when you yet to the Ford the unicorn of carbs. The Autolite inline 4 bbl
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
Autolite inline 4-barrels are wicked.
I have a test up on the Autolite
Those inline Autolite carbs worked really well with the better airflow and mixture distribution - until the cars went into a corner (they were born back in Trans Am racing days) - and for some reason Ford abandoned them instead of working out the fuel slosh problem.
@@Motor-City-Mike
The fact that the SCCA disallowed them for Trans Am use didn't help. And as I understand it the whole point of the inline carb was runner optimization with the spacing on the carb matching the intake port spacing on the Boss 302 heads. When these showed up at the start of the 70 season the SCCA had instituted a rules change for A Sedan (the basis for Trans Am) that disallowed multiple carburation.
Beauty and a BEAST,that's fantastic!
Love your vids man. I have 3 questions. First, whats the driveability like on these electronic Holborn setups. Second, does adding plenum volume on the bottom side of the throttle plate increase performance in any way. Also, does a narrower plenum increase low end power, similar to runners in a head
driveabilty is a function of tune-it can be jumpy from having so much throttle opening, not sure how you add plenum volume below the throttle plates on an IR system, no on the plenum question
Did I miss where the carb had a filter on it?
Only thing I can figure is, he is trying to bring the price of the injection system into perspective. Those have always been much much more than the average build deserves...
As Engine Masters proved a few years back the filter top makes very little difference. More so in a mild engine
Looks bad ass, sounds great but if running the screens to keep some longevity to the motor you just spent thousands on gives you about the same performance is it worth the price difference cause those things are kinda pricy, would've liked to see the price points in this video
Slight critism: it would be great to see what happens from 1500/2000 rpm. For those like me who are more interested on road driving/bottom end torque. But a very good video!
Wrong channel, I’ve asked similar before and got told it was a stupid question by dyno god
no one runs 1500 rpm at wot
Now let’s see what some Weber downdrafts do 😀
(if you do, have fun tuning!)
People have been doing that since the late 50s on SBC. And Fords as well.
As for power? more than the set up tested. But low end is a lot worse
@@ldnwholesale8552 I run DCOE and bottom end is stunning.
@@davidwarland2680 I have been around quad webered road race cars, both downdraft and side draft for decades,, and none will pull the skin of custard under 3500. Most have been replaced with a single 4bbl. Simpler, cheaper, more reliable. Though strictly speaking historic cars using more modern intakes and Holleys are not kosher.
And sidedraft Webbers do not like rough roads either as they 'flood up'
And I have been playing with triple DCOEs on road race cars, speedway cars and off road cars for over 40 years
@@ldnwholesale8552 so you are saying, you have no idea how to tune webers, most like you have no idea.
That hat to the side though 😂😂😂😂
I would like to see a comparison with idf webers and dcoe webers
Would of likes to see a filter on the carburetor to be a fair comparison.
makes no difference
But did you test the 4 barrel with an air cleaner tho ?
Richard,
Will this EFI work with a mechanical fuel pump or does it need an electric pump? Thanks!
needs high pressure electric
If that 650 is a good carb it's plenty but with all the other parts upgraded u can go up on the carb and it will run like a rapped ape in high school my dad's friend sold me a 383 with a holly 8-something carb it was rebuilt by the carb shop but it ran so good when I sold it that person was happy to so it's all about everything working well together that's my opinion
Funny i have a 355 sbc with a big cam, edelbrock aluminum heads that are ported, edelbrock h122 supercharger at 8psi. I run a quickfuel 850 dp blower carb and its still technically too big up to 5500 rpm. Flows 870 cfm at 6500rpm on the chip.
850 is not too big for a supercharged small block
After watching this, i gotta go back and watch that video about power with injector placement.
which video is this?
@@dudebro313 ruclips.net/video/dQZXqbgQyTY/видео.html
NOW,did you test the carb with a filter?
Love the video but was wondering where to plumb the fuel line on 1968camaro firewall with Barla 8stak help me if you can thanks.
doesn't your factory line run under the car?
Yeees finaly you try this combo out...:)
yep-this was done a good 10 years ago
What happened to the 225 slant 6 leaning tower of power you got back a couple months ago. I have been looking forward to see what you are going to do to it for power
coming
Personally I blame squirrels
Yep, it's Always squirrels! 🤣
@@thetransformatorium7980 👉🏻🐿✅😎
More like sanitarium
@@fasteddy Leave me be...~Metallica
@@kramnull8962 good tune
Years ago I ran a Holley 850 double pumper on my bored 283 with healthy cam. But I recall someone did a test on a couple of different muscle cars using Holley carbs from 650 through 850 and sometimes a 700 or 750 worked better. However any decent FI should beat a carb.
Can we see a Destroked SBC video in the future? Ive always like the idea of a high revving v8 screamer
He has been working on the 302 L99 for a while. That will basically be a destroked LT1v2
Do a multiport fuel injection series for the big block!!!
Would like to see how these compared to Weber carburetors.
Was the carb run with an air cleaner? Seems a bit unfair to handicap the stacks and not the carb.
the air cleaner assembly on the carb can actually help
@@richardholdener1727 wow that's counterintuitive. My quick google and youtube search didnt dig anything up. Do you know if it's slight air fuel adjustment from pressure drop, more laminar flow into the carb, or something crazy like intake pulses seeing distance to the filter as runner length. Thanks for shareing you knowledge.
Good analysis, thanks !!!
I just bought 2 44mm Honda CBR1000rr fuel injection throttle sets for my explorer motor with ported Twisted wedge heads and an f cam. I think I'm going solid roller lifters, and die cast high energy 1.6 rockers.
I need to figure out if I'm porting and re-using the GT40 lower manifold, or fabricating my own. I need to figure out what my redline should be... Stop tempting me!
I think I'm going to make a big air box, with a polycarbonate zr1 lid and cold air ducting to the filter at the front of the car.
solid roller F cam?
@@richardholdener1727 uuum, I think the 'hydraulic roller' f cam will have a gentler profile that when combined with solid roller lifters will let me rev the motor a little higher before valve float. Blame engines be masters?
good luck
Who wins when Richard debates Richie?
... We do!
lets say you already have a sbchevy with a well sorted 4barrel and dual plane, now if you go with a set up like this refi stack injection what kind of gas mileage would it deliver compared to the dual plane? would it be worth it?
stacks don't deliver milage
I've never seen anyone have good luck with the Holly 750? Make it a 650 or an 850 for me. Though i would like to try their 750 Dominator someday.
Hey Richard, as always, cool video! 👍👍 Just out of curiosity, do you know what the CFM rating of the stack injection is?
The same as the 650 dual plane with with air filter 😂
they don't offer a rating that I know of-but 2000+ cfm seems realistic with over 250 cfm per runner
@@richardholdener1727 I figured it had to be a lot. Thanks for replying! 👍👍
Keep in mind total cfm on a shared intake V an I.R. intake is quite different. If it had a 2000cfm carb on a shared intake it would be a dog, if the IR were rediced to a total of 650 cfm it would make no power!
You need to think in loose terms of 'what cfm is available to each cylinder'.
@@8power857 That's a very keen observation. Airflow through each stack is intermittent, and other cylinders cannot share a stack. I was not thinking it through. Thanks for your insight sensei. 👍👍👍
is there anything new on stack injection systems for LS ?
have a holly sniper efi now, how hard would it be to change to this efi stack intake?
What was the vacuum reading at loaded peak torque, 650 carb vs ITB?
Small Block Chevy?!?!? Where's the LS test- can you even get SBC's any more? ;-) And, more importantly,- why would you want to?
I wonder what constant velocity stacks would do, as they automatically adjust.
What efi system did you use for the stack efi? Fast? Holley hp?
holley
I was just watching some Steve Tech videos with Steve Morrison, and one that grabbed my attention was about hydraulic roller lifters vs solid roller lifters. One thing he mentioned was that it's a possibility to run a solid roller with the hydraulic roller camshaft. Have you done anything yet on this. I was wondering what kind of difference in power you would see with something mild, like the combination you used right here in this video. I had seen a couple of other guy's videos that mention that the maintenance isn't as big of a issue with the milder stockish/mild performance camshafts. More or less, being more streetable, and somewhat reliable. Thoughts?
I don't really see a reason to run a solid lifter with a hyd cam on a mild application-we have run solid lifters on hyd roller cams on BBC applications and it works just fine
@@richardholdener1727 but why? is it for more radical cams and the hydraulic has softer ramp up on and off the seat? as I'm building a BBC with a small 250 supercharger thanks. love the stacks vid to be fair the carb should of had a run with a filter too but I get it . Cheers from Australia
@@r0bkills choose what lifter you want to run and buy the appropriate cam. Lobe profiles vary A LOT , i have fitted street solid rollers with less aggressive lobes than many of the gnarly hydro rollers, there is no need or magic.
The basic big difference is the lash ramp, if you run solid lifters on the hydro cam youneed to ensure your lash setting falls within the lash ramp. Also the lobe profile will no longer reflect the spec of the cam as lash or lack of it alters what you see at the valve. Yes it can be done, solid on hydro or hydro on solid but no point if starting from scratch.
@@8power857 thanks 8power yep going hydro on both only aiming for 650 hp cheers!
@@r0bkills no problem ✌
Richard, how would you say butterfly position affects the characteristics? I.e. longer runner before the butterfly VS longer runner after the butterfly.
Internet knucklehead here, but Richard, how much power would the carb lose if you put an air filter on it too??? (Stacks still win, in other words.)
almost nothing with the right filter-and they can even add power
I made a comment about putting a plexi lid on an airbox for the stack injection intake... and it got deleted?!
i just purchased the streetmaster stack EFI kit and they dont come with injectors...and cust serv is useless...can you tell me what injectors you are running in this setup...thanks
It worked in the 60's. Why wouldn't it work now?
Excellent!!!
Have you or would you consider a back to back test concerning reversing piston orientation to see if piston offset makes a horsepower difference. I know Smokey Yunick did it, but dyno results would verify results ve Butt Dyno. Thank you Richard. Always enjoy and learn...
doing that on a dodge soon
MORE SBC GOODNESS! Think I'll stick with my Holley 750 HP DP on my SBC Gen 1, thanks
Regarding air filter, has anyone ever tried to compare no filter vs using one of the sprint car filters? Its the tall rectangle filter fits right over the stacks.
Thanks
So tpi/mpfi will work well if not better than stacks..
think about the intake design