@Victor PONCE I see only one potential advantage to that manifold. Short runner carb per cylinder setups like that bring the butterfly closer to the intake valve. This can make for a more responsive engine which can be important in something like a manual transmission race car for things like double clutching. But the engine it's on makes that moot. Outside of that specific application every other common setup is superior.
Loved the look of the older fuel injection...loved the video..finally got someone who commented on where the torque curve could be acknowledge on street where it will be used most of the time ...sure we all like to get on it full throttle at times ...I'm a big fan of torque and useable torque...I'll trade 20 ft lbs of torque for 20 PEAK hp anyday !!! Thanks for relating to what I would want in any buildup ...
I appreciate your engagement beyond making the content, that you are willing to get involved in the comments section. Your explanations are well written and make sense. I like your graciousness in the comments, good on ya.
With a self learning ecu and no knock sensors I don’t see how the ignition timing can really be on point to provide the maximum power for that efi setup. It’s impressive it did that well without proper tuning to be honest. The real benefit of efi is to precisely control the fuel and timing so you can push the limits: In order to do this you need to tune the ecu.
Plus no O2 sensor on the exhaust, they didn't give the EFI a chance, I would like to have know the vacuum difference. But still a stout engine for a rod.
I once had a 77 Buick Station Wagon that had a 455 cid engine, with a very small two barrel carb on it. I looked up the HP and Torque numbers and found something that surprised me. 155 peak HP at 4800 rpm, but 415 ft lbs of torque at 2800 rpm. That is when I learned about restrictive intakes, long stroke cranks, and torque. That land yacht must have weighed in at over 5,000 lbs without the 13 passengers, and their stuff.., yet that engine pulled it up a mountain at 65mph, with the tach hovering around 2,600 rpm. It actually got around 28 mpg on the highway.
@@sepg5084 displacement has two components,, bore and stroke. A short stroke/ big bore engine is better at making horsepower at high rpms, while a long stroke/small bore engine (same cubic inches) makes more torque at lower rpms.
My mom drove an old red Plymouth station wagon with the wood grain simulation on the sides. it was a bad ass wagon. it had a 383 magnum. that wagon would shit and get, believe that crap. in a station wagon, wish I had it now.
Generally the Factory spends millions of $$$$ on getting Maximum on average, HP+TQ+Mileage + Cost+ reliability =Value $$$ for a daily driver so you can't go wrong keeping it stock and running properly with regular service!!!
If I had one, I'd get someone to re-create it on a 3-d Printer, play with the openings on CAD to flow more, and reproduce your own! You could probably sell the 3-d versions to supplement your IRA!! Or, have them produced from high temp injection molded ABS or the like.. If there's NO Serial numbers/part number/Manufacturing name= NO LAWSUITS. .......How long have you had it sitting? 30-50yrs?
I had one of these prototype Weber DCNF intakes a while back. Jim Inglese designed them and Winters Foundry cast them. Mine still had all the markings on it. Have a friend who has one and know where there is one other. These being an individual runner design, they will make more power from low to midrange than a plenum type intake.
It is nice to be able to brag about a big horsepower number, but I never drive around a 6 grand on the tach. Think I would prefer the extra power down low.
You can have good HP/Torque down and great top end also. With less cubes and cam duration. Its called an LS. I have PERSONALLY seen the light. Dont get me wrong, I come from and love the Gen 1 SBC. But after dipping my feet into the LS world several years ago, I wont ever look back. I wont even touch a carb or distributor unless someone is payng a pretty penny...
@@jaydubb71 Performance catalogues sell carb swap intakes for LS motors for a good reason. The cylinder heads are where the LS power comes from, not some flimsy little copper wires and circuit boards. The EFI system is choking power out of those engines not adding to it.
The old man is a good tech, takes pride in his work and set the most beautiful bead of silicone i have ever seen in my life, this guy is a pro builder. I could hear on the first dyno run when you switch to efi that the engine was running too rich. He knew it too and taking the screens out was brilliant.
I would love to see a properly ported old school Cross Ram intake with a pair of old 660 Holleys on it as a comparison to both. 1960's tech was not bad.
Meh you'd have a dyno queen with peak power at an unusble rpm. This with properly sized velocity stacks and port injection vs throttle body would be bring far more usable power.
@@nismo4x4n You have obviously no experience with crossrams. Mine was made by Edelbrock it has runners twice as long as a tunnelram and pulls like a train from 3500 to 6800. It lives very happily on my hydraulic roller cammed 454 Chevy.
i rather have a stable running engine where fuel is where fuel is adjusted to the air mass and exhaust fumes, automatically adjusting ignition timing in combo with the knock sensor and capable of taking any rated gasoline from Bosch.
www.bosch-automotive.com or powered by an ECU from Cosworth www.cosworth.com/products/mq12/ www.cosworth.com/race-electronics/ Cosworth will beat Holley hands down, any day.
John Johnson Yep. I don't know how to make them run right in cars, because almost all of the cars I've owned and worked on have been injected. Never had much trouble tuning them on bikes, but as a dirt/dual sport guy, they've all been pretty simple singles.
I love it. You have a guys who just builds and tunes engines, because it takes a fully devoted person. So much for doing it on the weekend in your garage. Lol
This brings up one of the misconceptions about Weber type setups. With the short runners and the racing applications that they are used in, it has been assumed they are all about the top end. In truth, those that run them have found the make surprising amounts of low end power. Even though the runners are short, they each have their own barrel for airflow and metering so a plenum is not needed. I wonder if drilling the holes actually hurt performance. (I understand it might have been needed for the map sensor). If you look at traditional weber intakes, they have no plenum area and each runner is basically isolated. But obviously, those throttle bodies were just too small, designed for much smaller engines, so that was the cause of most of the lost power on the top end.
Actually with IR Webber's the effective runner length is all the way to the trumpet end. So in this case the runner length was longer than for the single plane. Thats why it made more low end torque.
I really like how at 11:00 he explains why the EFI setup was better for that engine when installed in a car that is being driven on the street. It makes less power on the top end, but you're not driving down public roads at 5000+ RPM.
@HZB OcYpcWr'Ctwu Odzs ya to bad that only opens throttle plates more it does not fine tune fuel mixture for air density changes.so next time dont replied when you have no clue what your talking about!
victor girouard, back in the day, (God I hate that cliche), especially at the Pikes Peak hill climb, as they clawed their way to the 14,110 foot summit. Those engines were just about to melt their pistons from running such leaned out mixtures.
At the end of the day, its all about use-case. Dragstrip vs. Drivability. Higher HP numbers are useless on the street if the throttle response is boggy down low and has lower torque numbers. Or non-linear throttle response.
The manifold used on the E.F.I. system is restrictive at high rpm . It is a dual plane. Use a Hillborn 8 stack system E.F.I. then lets see or an Edelbrock Pro Flow that uses. a Victor Jr manifold then lets see.
First, I will state that this is an awesome looking setup and congratulations to your manifold porting guy for taking an antiquated design and getting it within striking distance of modern stuff. However, I tire of the non apples to apples comparisons of EFI and Carbs and then the pronouncement that carbs are still superior. Modern EFI is designed for a non wet flow manifold, and yet they stack EFI throttle bodies on top and say, carburetors still better at peak hp. Love to see it reversed, lets put a carb on a dry flow intake and see how it does. Just google LS intake comparisons, there is one where they use the stock LS6 and Trail Blazer SS intakes, and included was a Holley Tunnel Ram Dual quad, Holley Mid rise dual quad, Holley single plane, Eddy Hi-rise dual plane carb, and Eddy Victor Jr single plane run with holley 950xp carbs on the single carb apps. The closest the hp got was within 10hp on the eddy single plane, and the eddy dual plane torque got within 25, of the best factory intake the trail blazer ss. When it came to the Hi-ram dual quad run with dual 950xp's, yes it made more power then the stock intakes, but when it came up against the EFI Tunnel Rams it still lost 5-10Hp and tied for torque, and lost by 5-6hp and 30ft lbs of torque to the Fast/MSD factory efi style intakes. I'm not saying carbs aren't good, but the truth is a well dyno tuned, proper EFI setup will put it down for HP, TQ, and drive-ability. Still that motor is sexy looking lol.
Pretty much all comes down to airflow for both carb and EFI, the small EFI Throttle bodies didn't help the EFI cause, but an EFI system with a larger airflow would see a different result for sure. I have an Edelbrock Pro Flo XT intake on top of a Dart 434ci small block with flat tops, Dart Pro 1 cylinder heads (230cfm, 2.08" intake and 1.6" exhaust, 72cc chambers) in my 84 Corvette here in Australia. Throttle body is only 90mm LS style, but its supposed to run 1100cfm. I have installed a set of FAST 65lb LS3 injectors, a FAST ECU controls everything. I am still in the middle of 1-7/8" to 3" header and exhaust fabrication and just waiting for the new year to order a Dewitts radiator and I'll get it fired up. I am sure the injectors are a little big, but I have widened the Pro Flo XT intake and port matched to the Dart Pro 1 heads, the 434 has a huge set of lungs, so more air in, more airflow and gas and I think I might surprise a few peeps. The intake also has a longer set of intake runners from the plenum, much like a TPI, but bigger and can flow to 7000rpm.
EFI with short runners like that has another power advantage. Way more of the fuel is delivered as liquid droplets instead of vapor. The vapor takes up lots of space that could be used for air. More air plus the matching fuel in the same cylinder volume equals more power.
@@nismo4x4n EFI can help flatten out a peaky power curve that some types of carbs cause, but camshaft selection and cylinder heads have a lot to do with the shape of the power curve, too.
Then you also got the mechanical fuel injection that sits nicely between the two. My old mercedes has the old Bosch Ke-jet system from the 80s. It looks wacky at first but its actually a pretty smart setup once you figure it out.
I think the EFI system just ran out of fuel. If you do the math, this looks to be the case. it had eight 36 lbs/hr injectors. Which is a total of 288 lbs/hr worth of fuel. Assuming a BSFC of .55, that comes out to 523.63 hp worth of fuel. And according to your graph, it looks like it made somewhere in that neighborhood. If you replaced the 36lbs/hr injectors with 45 lbs/hr injectors, that would be a total of 360 lbs/hr. Again assuming a BSFC of .55, that would be 654.54 hp worth of fuel. Now whether or not the long block will flow enough to support that is a different story. But in my opinion you have enough fuel to match or exceed the carburetor's output. I would love to see this test with bigger injectors! 😁 Nice content btw. New sub right here!!!
I’d love to see a Holley carb vs Holley TBI that rated the same CFM on the same intake manifold running at the same AFR at top end. Any thing else is apples & oranges. You can always make more power by leaning out the carb to the ragged edge where you’d never let it out the door vs letting an FI system manage a safe default ratio. Real world, the fuel injection wins under ever changing conditions.
Yup, but with one change, the EFI can be larger with more CFM as the EFI doesn't need vacuum and a high flow rate to function well. I'll put a 1000 CFM throttle body on an engine that I wouldn't go larger then a 750 vacuum secondary carb on. With that 830CFM double pumper, even being a double pumper and properly tuned ya floor it from 1200 RPM under load and it'll go suck, pop, pop, buck, stall. Ya toss just a 1000 CFM throttle body EFI on it, do the same thing it'll go suck, pause, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
Whatever GM has on my2010 C-6 Vette is fine by me. Press the pedal and it acellerates smoothly from whever i started until I run out of nerve. Great demonstration.
Probably drive by wire throttle control. Meaning push the pedal to the floor, computer opens the throttle. That provides the extremely smooth throttle response. BMW started with it in the 90's. Typical driver doesn't know enough about torque and RPM to manage the throttles optimally. With carbs, vacuum secondaries were a plus because the rear butterflies wouldn't open until sufficient vacuum was attained. The old six packs were staged.
7:31 - it shouldn't have came as a surprise the 4x2 intake made more bottom end. The virtually independent runner/venturi kept velocities up, and kept low RPM reversion from contaminating the flow of adjacent cylinders. I think what surprised him most, was that it outperformed on low end with such short runners. The great thing about ITB (independent throttle body) setups, is the effective runner length becomes the TOTAL length of the induction system... not just the intake runners themselves. I know this isn't true ITB... but effectively, it is... because each cylinder has its own intake runner and throttle valve, only sharing a small portion of flow from a minute vacuum reference channel, and the top of the air horn. Furthermore, EFI has a fantastic ability that carb simply doesn't have... the ability to compensate tuning with unstable vacuum signal. Yes, I know they drilled the intake for a common signal... but carb fuel delivery REQUIRES vacuum.... where as EFI only uses it as part of the reference. A properly tuned short runner ITB setup can make nearly as much bottom end as a long runner setup, when Alpha-N tuning is used below the reversion point (the point at which the incoming air compresses against the back of the closed valve, rebounding like a coilover shock and causing a sudden spike in pressure back up the intake runner... a distance which is longer at low RPM).The benefit of EFI's pressurized fuel delivery can really shine in these setups, with proper tuning... because the fuel delivery can be controlled AND delivered regardless of vacuum signal. Where as the flow of fuel through carb boosters gets wildly distorted with reversion and turbulent flow. With properly sized throttle bodies, this engine would've outperformed the carb setup throughout the powerband. The only place carb wins out over EFI (oddly enough) is horsepower per CFM. Common sense would say EFI should win out here, because the fuel is delivered AFTER the throttle body. At peak enrichment, that's about 7% of the available flow that isn't occupied by fuel, as it is with a carburetor. This is where carb magic pops in. With fuel being added under low pressure, the atomization of the fuel cools the intake charge, much like an intercooler on a turbo setup... condensing the charge, while allowing the low pressure zone to effect a larger area of the intake tract, and thus triggering more flow of a more dense mixture throughout the induction. High pressure fuel delivery, even high on the runner like most EFI retrofit system, will never be able to compete in this area... which used to be a CRUCIAL factor in delaying the uptake of EFI into racing, ESPECIALLY restrictor plate racing. For years, they simply couldn't wrap their head around why they should switch from a carb system that makes 'X' horsepower with 'Y' size induction orifice, when EFI often required more flow for the same output. Don't get me wrong... I'm not a carb hater. Carbs also win out in another area. A properly tuned carb will atomize fuel better, and provide better fuel economy in that specific range it's tuned for. The low pressure delivery under vacuum lowers the effective evaporation point of the fuel, facilitating better atomization... but EVERYTHING must be perfectly tuned, and the benefit only remains for as long the operating conditions remain static... including load, RPM, intake density, and temperature.
I like the comparison. I'll stick to my carbs. Fuel injection is great for drive ability, but I don't like the electronics. But also in reality very few of the engines will ever hit 5-6 grand. A race engine is different, but I still prefer carbs, and mopars. I also use stock ignitions, they work.
Growing up in the early 80's the one thing that most cars that could do crazy burnouts with no assistance from your brakes were the cars and trucks that had the Holley double pumpers. 🚙. 💨
Everyone wants to stack the deck so efi wins and they can justify their investment. However, the facts speak for themselves, a properly sized and tuned carb will hold its own and most of the time exceed what you can get out of any throttle body efi system.
Bigger concern (To me) is that the system is clearly undersized for the engine. There's a reason the normal Chevy kits are running significantly larger throttle bodies; These smaller units are choking out the top end.
I'd say that makes sense. If that manifold was developed back in the day when stroker kits were not common, then it was probably meant for a 327/350. Be interesting to do the comparison with that capacity as a baseline.
Build the carburetor system like a motorcycle simple and easy to tune together syncing is no problem take a lesson from the Japanese it figured it out 30 years ago
Why this old, antiquated individual throttle body/port, Weber style manifold? How about a Victor EFI manifold, port injection and a 1000+ CFM 4 barrel throttle body? This, in my opinion, wasnt a fair example/comparison. This coming from a guy who came from carbs and distributors. Can you all do a test on the same engine with the aforementioned setup?
Yeah, this is really a comparison of a too-small mystery swap meet carb manifold adapted to EFI vs a modern carb/manifold setup. The results are not surprising.
@@177SCmaro we all know if they would've used the setup I suggested, the resulted would've been closer or even better compared to the carb setup. And being able to fine tune it. And being able to hit the key and almost have no maintenance (carb cleaning, constant carb adjustments, etc). Go to the track make adjustments with clicks vs jet changes and fooling with a distributor....
@@jaydubb71 I've been driving everywhere I need to go on the same Holley vacuum secondary 600 for literally ten years, my car starts up instantly even in freezing temps and I have a vid showing proof of that. In the ten years I've been relying on that carb I've only had two problems with it, I had to replace a dried out leaking needle and seat once after the car sat for a year during a delayed engine swap and I also had to order a new number 35 squirter to match some porting and choke tower removal I did with a Dremel tool.
@@elonmust7470 I wont say that they suck BUT I will say that they have had their time. My 91 Camaro is getting a fuel injected and turbo'd LQ4. I was going to do a blow-thru carbed 355/383 but after having the LS light shone upon me, Im hooked. I learned to tune EFI years ago and I will never look back. And I will NEVER put a carb on an LS. The Holley 4 bbl carb and ignition LS kit is 800 bucks ALONE! Why DOWNGRADE an LS with a carb and have mixture distribution issues and need a plenum spider like a single plane on a SBF? No point. I would like to see a test with the configuration I mentioned earlier. @thehorspowermonster, will you all try this setup?
This is interesting, especially considering that you're going over 5500 rpm with a stroker and running roller cams and roller tip rockers. I do not trust either. I will keep my spring pressures lower with a solid flat tappet cam and ductile 1.5:1 iron rocker arms on thick walled shafts instead of studs. As to the carb selection, wouldnt a better comparison be a dual 4bbl setup against those throttle bodys? And do a progressive and straight linkage test, and get the AFR dialed in on the carbs, like you can so easily do by computer with the EFI? Thanks for the video, I appreciated it, but I am sticking with dual quad AVS2 500 cfm carbs.
A better comparison would have been to choose velocity stacks for the efi system that matched the carb in airflow. If that was done you'd have seen a much broader and useable rpm range. This setup was not well thought out.
Them showing a clip or 2 of them tuning the efi doesn't mean it was fast or easy. It could have been but they also said they modified the intake to allow a common map signal which most likely helped a ton with tuning
Way back in 65 when I ran a Shelby GT350 at Elkhart Lake. The 289 (actually 294 with a bore clean up bore from Shelby. Back then the engine used 4, 48 IDA. Webber’s. It was factory rated at 385 hp LOL, Right! It ran a Crane Roller cam from Shelby.
Yes having a bigger diameter throttle for the EFI would increase power at the top end. But it will come to a point where as they said, what application the engine is designed for. Peak power or drivability? 44mm is way too small for such a large displacement engine. Would love to see it having 50mm butterflies instead vs the carb. Not to mention having better response, fuel economy and power in any temperature or weather condition.. the benefits of EFI are obvious.
Jenvey make TBs in both those types of Webers. I would have gone for the IDF-style with at least a 48mm tapered bore, it not a 50mm as a minimum, on an engine of that capacity and potential gas flow.
@@brucelamberton8819 actually got two 2x50mm jenvey throttle bodies to fit my dcoe manifold for my stroker volvo engine 44mm on a V8 sounds extremely restricting considering i run 50's on a 3.1L I4 and still wonder if i should have went for 52mm or 55 millimeters, but for roadeuse i guess the 50's bring a bit more air velocity at low rpm's
Seen a video a while back on a old 4 cylinder with ITBs and they had some very significant increases in power simply swapping to longer trumpets. If i remember I think they picked up 20HP or so from a 50mm trumpet to a 102mm trumped or something like that. If they got those increases with that little thing I could easily see this big boy picking up at least 40hp switching to longer trumpets.
Very cool and attractive EFI setup! For a build that doesn't have to have the absolute best horsepower numbers it's a good choice. Plus EFI setups are just easier to cold start. I love my carbs but sometimes they can be a little moody with big temperature changes even with the choke set right.
@@snek9353 no shit, it was a poor man's EFI setup (not proper EFI) and way to small throttle bodies. 44mm on a V8? i run 50's on a I4... and it's restricting.... but going bigger would kill low end torque and i want a proper street drivable engine
i like those injection throttle bodies! . a few years back a customer asked me to get his E type V12 running. it had 6 weber IDA's , The car had been restored about 30 years ago but never driven,just used as a display piece. I fought with that sucker for months ,rebuilding most of the engine except the short block, and those webers? they refused to work. Even running it on a dyno adjusting them on the fly made zero difference to lack of low end power. They would only work above 3000 RPM ,which in a E type is well into license losing territory. In the end i got it almost running right but a cracked piston bought the project to a halt. It turned out to have the wrong heads and the ignition wasn't up to the task of the heads. If i had access to 6 of those throttle bodies and using a better ignition we could have made the car run. The customer sold the car and bought an identical one with fuel injection ....
Very interesting. I've heard lots of horror stories from the "good old days" of trying to get multiple carb setups properly tuned for an engine. Car styling today can't hold a candle to many of the older cars, but personally, I'm quickly coming to love EFI. Thanks for watching!
Mercmad : The Panther J72 had a factory option of the 5.3 liter Jaguar V12 with the Unipart Six Weber 40 DCi's. Same 2.36 mm 16 gauge gauze primary stone filters as Keith Dorton removed in the video. The low end loss is due to the very bad transitorised ignition curve and the need to find proper air correctors and emulsion tubes to create a flat fuel delivery of 12.5:1 from off idle to 6500 rpm. The J72 V12 12 barrel was a true 14 second, 140 mph replica of a Jag SS 100, and did in gears increments of 4.5 seconds from 30 to 50 mph in top...like a freight train. Any car that takes 2.4 seconds to get to 30 mph, or 5.7 to 60 mph doesnt have a torque problem. The six carbs had just 30 mm chokes...plenty to make 360 hp at 6000 rpm on a 326 V12. Multiple EFi throttle body systems or Independent runner carbs need carefull calibration against the time honoured Eudardo Weber/David Vizard/ Jenvey / PMO's idealised venturi to cylinder size graph. If each of the throttle or venturis are undersized just a 40 thou from the chart, you can loose 50 hp at 7000 rpm in a 350 cube V8....its very sensitive due to boundary layer air flow getting very rough. Aston MartinsSouth African 1985 580 X version of the Vantage DBS V8 gained another 60 hp with a routed out four Weber system, mostly due to how restrictive the earl carbs were on the 390 hp version. The carb throttles were opened up 80 thou.
Hmmm...I like the low end tourqe gains....but the cost $ difference between the dbl pumper...and the 3 Weber's + unknown custom intake. I'm sure is a huge difference in affordably.. great video...but for the average person. I'm sure the carb is the way to go for affordable power. Wish we could all have our dream set ups..but you guys proved. That it's not always money...that makes the power..loved the video great content.!
Why are people still building these V8s? Does the old SBC have any technical advantages over the LS era engines? Is it just people wanting "the look" for nostalgia?
Nick's Garage did the same test with EFI V carb. Again the carb made more power but a EFI system will give better fuel economy as the fuel flow can be better controlled .
I understand that larger ITB throats can lose low-end in the search for more top-end HP. Often wondered what was the best compromise for common engines such as the more popular LS.
Getting ready to rebuild a ‘67 mustang with a 289, all original with just under 8,000 miles for the Henry Ford museum. Then put my DZ302 on the dyno, kinda curious on how rpm’s it’s gonna twist.
Really fun video that basically tells us nothing. But really entertaining nonetheless. I'd love to see the Chevy specific EFI test with bigger throttle bodies! Regardless, I loved watching this.
Cool, be interesting to see comparisons between engines with directly comparable intakes - like three deuces carbies and TBs on the same manifold. I would agree that cabies and points can produce the same peak power, or torque, but the managment 'should' be able to better the older tech' away from those peaks. Even if one runs a carb' (or more than one), being able to tailor the exact ignition requirements the engine needs, should increase torque before and after the peaks. With a temperature map, one can even increase the cold timing and pull it at the top for very hot weather, for better driveability and reduced 'pinging'.
I'd like to see a comparison using an Enderle Bird Catcher on about a 500" drag racing motor vs. a properly sized crab setup. If you've done one, great! Link it, if not and you run across one, Link it! I run a 500" Mopar, Indy 440-1 heads, Bird Catcher on Methanol. It's NA and given the Methanol, I run the compression ratio at right around 15.5:1. I tune it a little conservatively to make parts last longer. Getting the last drop out for one pass on my budget isn't worth it. I fought with carbs on Mopars for years. Mopars are the most temperamental POS's if you try to over-carb them. Even on a 500" 13ish:1 we could not make a 1050 dom work. We were driving it to the line so by the time we got up there the plugs would be black and you just can't clean em out at that point. We had it jetted about as low as it would go before it would stop responding. I suspect a 950cfm carb would have worked great but, again...Mopars seem to just refuse to be over-carbed...even by a fairly small amount. Chevy...they put bigish four barrels on v-6s...and it worked pretty good! My 15.5:1 Motor in a 2600 ish pound tube chassis car did some 9.20s in the quarter but the car was a real handful. Very short wheel base and it took a real expert to get it aligned properly. But once he did it, the car went straight as a string! Unless I got loose...then you lift! LOL There's only so much you can do with a short wheelbase car! I wish I'd kept some 1/8th slips from back then but I just didn't remember to. (where I lived 1/8 was the deal for hundreds of miles) I gave upon carbs the minute I tried the bird catcher. There's just no matching the tunability (especially with Methanol) and more importantly to me, simplicity. Mechanical Fuel Injection may be nearly impossible to make work on the street but it sure works well on the strip. It would need to change 40 degrees before I'd even be able to notice a pill change. Great vid! Thanks and I'll be a new subscriber.
that may have been true 20 years ago but efi ecu's and injectors can be had cheap now. With efi you can have perfect driveability at all points in the rpm and change your mapping at will.
@@wayneoneal7952 EFI still wins, a FAST intake with stock efi on a Ls6 will out perform almost every combination of carbs. Not to mention its cheaper, WAAAAY easier to tune, more efficient, and takes up less space.
@The Horsepower Monster I'd be interested to see the numbers with that better-flowing EFI setup, as it seems like this one was running out of air on the top-end.
the amount of hassle you avoid using carburators (mafs, sensors, cables, ecus, mappings, cats..) it worth to learn how to set them right. That's the only thing you need to know, and you will be free.
Can we get a video on mechanical fuel injection? It's an oddball method of fuel delivery that I don't think gets enough attention outside of drag racing.
44mm TBs are too small for best power with 625cc cylinders (5.0L V8), and far too small for 825cc (6.6L V8). On a V8 engine of this displacement, this particular EFI is sized for "street cruiser" operation with instant throttle response and part throttle torque, not big power.
tubad4ya : Your 100% right. Way too small. It needs 54mm throttle size if it has no chokes to make power past 4000 to 7000, where a proper sized TWM 8 stack will make well over 600 hp. I havent muktiplied everything by 1.333 to compute for a 350 V8 as my back ground is 6 cylinder cars with 40 mm chokes and 45 mm throttles. They heal over at just 306 hp. Up to 1.181" or 30mm,180 hp sixup to 1.260" or 32mm, 198 hp sixup to 1.378" or 35mm, 234 hp sixup to 1.496" or 38mm, 276 hp sixup to 1.575" or 40mm, 306 hp sixup to 1.653" or 42mm, 336 hp six Up to 1.771" or 45mm, 390hp sixup to 1.889" or 48mm, 444 hp sixup to 1.968" or 50mm, 480 hp sixup to 2.047" or 52mm, 522 hp sixup to 2.126" or 54mm, 558 hp six.
Would like to see a competition between Carb and EFI manufacturer's / enthusiasts both can do better....8 barrel EFI vs Twin 4 barrel weber same air fuel ratio same enjin own designed intake....etc.
Why not use IR manifolds with separate tb:s (i.e. in cross with the tb:s located somewhere above the valve covers)? The manifold used seemed to have many bends of the airflow => pressure drop => less VE and also logical to the top end in this comparison? BTW: Objectively Formel 1 left carburettors of any kind in the early sixties. But even with the same VE map over the rpm-range a properly mapped fuel & ignition EFI is indeed very hard to beat due to the extreme possibility of quality in the fuel and timing resolution vs load, this is simply not possible with carburettors and/or distributors...
I thought I heard in the video that those particular Borla EFI units were designed to replace Weber carbs. I'm just imagining them on an old Triumph TR-3A . . . The hardest part would be hiding the damn computer!
some times you have to decide what's more important, looks or power. Most likely this engine will never see redline again after this so more power up to 4000 rpm will work out great. If it were me I would get rid of the individual throttle bodies and go with a large single, most likely it would make the same or slightly less power than the carb. Its hard to beat a carb for power, that's latent heat of evaporation working there.
I do. In Europe we abolished carbs decades ago. We can make small engines with large power outputs, better mpg, better driveability and low emmissions nowadays. 👌😁
Too bad they didn't have some larger throttle bodies to test. Those 44mm throttle bodies were probably too small. I'm willing to bet some 52mm throttle bodies would make a noticeable difference.
Efi is better for drivability... that’s about it😂 there’s a reason you see a dominance of carbs at the strip or even street race cars... I only run carbs for my street race/strip cars. Better peaks for everything, cheaper, and easier to tune. I don’t have to really tune my carbs too often though because I get them built through pro systems. I’ll never convert to efi. I like efi in my daily drivers though😂 great video.
Soooo ... what would happen with a larger-flowing EFI system... that could give you the lower-end 'early' torque... AND electronically control the fuel flow all the way thru the High-Flow top-end...?? Particularly if mounted on a medium-rise manifold, that would give you some runner length...
it's becoming difficult to keep a carburetor alive if you live in a place where ethanol-free fuel is not available. modern efi systems are immune from ethanol damage. i have an old 1974 gmc half-ton pickup with a 350/turbo350 and an edelbrock performer intake and edelbrock performer 600cfm carb. i don't use it very much, it gets used maybe 5-6 times each year for dump runs but it mostly sits around. it was always a dependable and reliable rig until the introduction of ethanol... even though i installed an electric fuel pump to eliminate the mechanical one which allows me to shut off the fuel so the carburetor will go dry when i shut it off i still get major corrosion problems so i have to take the carburetor apart and clean it out twice a year, sometimes more often than that. i'm really tempted to swap to a factory tbi manifold and throttle body but i'd rather not use the original gm c3 efi system, even though i own a scan tool that can talk to that system...
![665 Cubic Inch (10.9 Liters!) Monster Big Block Engine Build [The Displacement King]](/img/1.gif)
Good video, and I AM a confirmed carb guy, but it really looks like that FI system was strangled upstairs by that manifold.
@Uncle Tony's Garage I see you there mad scientist!
True, they were just too small for maximum power on that combo. And I love your channel!
not willing to try:
www.cosworth.com/race-electronics/ ?
Yup, the lack of a common plenum killed all the top end HP.
@Victor PONCE I see only one potential advantage to that manifold. Short runner carb per cylinder setups like that bring the butterfly closer to the intake valve. This can make for a more responsive engine which can be important in something like a manual transmission race car for things like double clutching. But the engine it's on makes that moot. Outside of that specific application every other common setup is superior.
Loved the look of the older fuel injection...loved the video..finally got someone who commented on where the torque curve could be acknowledge on street where it will be used most of the time ...sure we all like to get on it full throttle at times ...I'm a big fan of torque and useable torque...I'll trade 20 ft lbs of torque for 20 PEAK hp anyday !!!
Thanks for relating to what I would want in any buildup ...
I appreciate your engagement beyond making the content, that you are willing to get involved in the comments section. Your explanations are well written and make sense. I like your graciousness in the comments, good on ya.
Thank you!
That 4/2 throttle body setup is gorgeous. Jewelry on top of the engine.
With a self learning ecu and no knock sensors I don’t see how the ignition timing can really be on point to provide the maximum power for that efi setup. It’s impressive it did that well without proper tuning to be honest.
The real benefit of efi is to precisely control the fuel and timing so you can push the limits: In order to do this you need to tune the ecu.
Plus no O2 sensor on the exhaust, they didn't give the EFI a chance, I would like to have know the vacuum difference.
But still a stout engine for a rod.
Welding beads (stack of dimes) of the rtv silicone on the china wall!!!! That's funny!!! It was very neat.. so well done!!!
I once had a 77 Buick Station Wagon that had a 455 cid engine, with a very small two barrel carb on it. I looked up the HP and Torque numbers and found something that surprised me. 155 peak HP at 4800 rpm, but 415 ft lbs of torque at 2800 rpm. That is when I learned about restrictive intakes, long stroke cranks, and torque. That land yacht must have weighed in at over 5,000 lbs without the 13 passengers, and their stuff.., yet that engine pulled it up a mountain at 65mph, with the tach hovering around 2,600 rpm. It actually got around 28 mpg on the highway.
big displacement engines inherently have more torque, no doubt about that. just look at the dodge viper motor
@@sepg5084 displacement has two components,, bore and stroke. A short stroke/ big bore engine is better at making horsepower at high rpms, while a long stroke/small bore engine (same cubic inches) makes more torque at lower rpms.
My mom drove an old red Plymouth station wagon with the wood grain simulation on the sides. it was a bad ass wagon. it had a 383 magnum. that wagon would shit and get, believe that crap. in a station wagon, wish I had it now.
Generally the Factory spends millions of $$$$ on getting Maximum on average, HP+TQ+Mileage + Cost+ reliability =Value $$$ for a daily driver so you can't go wrong keeping it stock and running properly with regular service!!!
Intake was made by Inglese, they only ever cast around 18 of those for use in a Road Race series. I have one of those manifolds.
If I had one, I'd get someone to re-create it on a 3-d Printer, play with the openings on CAD to flow more, and reproduce your own! You could probably sell the 3-d versions to supplement your IRA!!
Or, have them produced from high temp injection molded ABS or the like..
If there's NO Serial numbers/part number/Manufacturing name= NO LAWSUITS.
.......How long have you had it sitting? 30-50yrs?
I have one! That's so cool. It's on my car rn.
I had one of these prototype Weber DCNF intakes a while back. Jim Inglese designed them and Winters Foundry cast them. Mine still had all the markings on it. Have a friend who has one and know where there is one other. These being an individual runner design, they will make more power from low to midrange than a plenum type intake.
It is nice to be able to brag about a big horsepower number, but I never drive around a 6 grand on the tach. Think I would prefer the extra power down low.
You can have good HP/Torque down and great top end also. With less cubes and cam duration. Its called an LS. I have PERSONALLY seen the light. Dont get me wrong, I come from and love the Gen 1 SBC. But after dipping my feet into the LS world several years ago, I wont ever look back. I wont even touch a carb or distributor unless someone is payng a pretty penny...
Then just run a 650
True, theres an expression " Horsepower is for bragging in the bar, torque is king on the Street".
@@Mercmad Exactly!
@@jaydubb71 Performance catalogues sell carb swap intakes for LS motors for a good reason. The cylinder heads are where the LS power comes from, not some flimsy little copper wires and circuit boards. The EFI system is choking power out of those engines not adding to it.
Thanks for sharing. I too love that bottom end torque!
The old man is a good tech, takes pride in his work and set the most beautiful bead of silicone i have ever seen in my life, this guy is a pro builder. I could hear on the first dyno run when you switch to efi that the engine was running too rich. He knew it too and taking the screens out was brilliant.
I would love to see a properly ported old school Cross Ram intake with a pair of old 660 Holleys on it as a comparison to both.
1960's tech was not bad.
Should have done 4 weber carbs vs 4 throttle bodies. Not a fair comparison. Ive seen as much as 40hp between diffrent intake set ups.
Agreed
atleast it should have been a dual plane manifoldfor the carb....still the injection would have lost...but, it would have been closer.
Meh you'd have a dyno queen with peak power at an unusble rpm. This with properly sized velocity stacks and port injection vs throttle body would be bring far more usable power.
@@nismo4x4n You have obviously no experience with crossrams. Mine was made by Edelbrock it has runners twice as long as a tunnelram and pulls like a train from 3500 to 6800. It lives very happily on my hydraulic roller cammed 454 Chevy.
For the $$$ difference, I'll stick with my Holley.
i rather have a stable running engine where fuel is where fuel is adjusted to the air mass and exhaust fumes, automatically adjusting ignition timing in combo with the knock sensor and capable of taking any rated gasoline from Bosch.
www.bosch-automotive.com
or powered by an ECU from Cosworth
www.cosworth.com/products/mq12/
www.cosworth.com/race-electronics/
Cosworth will beat Holley hands down, any day.
Some body wrote that a carburetor is basically a calibrated fuel leak.
lol best description of a carb ever.
Carbs have came a long way in the last 60 years!!!
@John Johnson yep. my carbed bike scares the crap out of me with its bad cold start and fuel smell.
John Johnson Yep. I don't know how to make them run right in cars, because almost all of the cars I've owned and worked on have been injected. Never had much trouble tuning them on bikes, but as a dirt/dual sport guy, they've all been pretty simple singles.
Ok, if sucking gas through a nozzle is what you call "fuel leak"..
I love it. You have a guys who just builds and tunes engines, because it takes a fully devoted person. So much for doing it on the weekend in your garage. Lol
This brings up one of the misconceptions about Weber type setups. With the short runners and the racing applications that they are used in, it has been assumed they are all about the top end. In truth, those that run them have found the make surprising amounts of low end power. Even though the runners are short, they each have their own barrel for airflow and metering so a plenum is not needed. I wonder if drilling the holes actually hurt performance. (I understand it might have been needed for the map sensor). If you look at traditional weber intakes, they have no plenum area and each runner is basically isolated. But obviously, those throttle bodies were just too small, designed for much smaller engines, so that was the cause of most of the lost power on the top end.
maybe switch to a common volume above the throttle bodies and switch to MassAirFlow?
Actually with IR Webber's the effective runner length is all the way to the trumpet end. So in this case the runner length was longer than for the single plane.
Thats why it made more low end torque.
@@indyrock8148 Good point. Hadn't thought of it like that.
I really like how at 11:00 he explains why the EFI setup was better for that engine when installed in a car that is being driven on the street. It makes less power on the top end, but you're not driving down public roads at 5000+ RPM.
The problem is carbs cant self adjust for temp change or altitude changes like efi can.
umm yea they do but only for bikes that l know of
www.lectronfuelsystems.com/
@HZB OcYpcWr'Ctwu Odzs ya to bad that only opens throttle plates more it does not fine tune fuel mixture for air density changes.so next time dont replied when you have no clue what your talking about!
victor girouard, back in the day, (God I hate that cliche), especially at the Pikes Peak hill climb, as they clawed their way to the 14,110 foot summit. Those engines were just about to melt their pistons from running such leaned out mixtures.
Alan McGahie, I’ve been telling my wife that for years, especially in our 05 Volvo S80 Premier with the 2.9 liter twin cam, twin turbo T6 engine.
HZB OcYpcWr'Ctwu Odzs, Aww c”mon play nice or else we’ll have to ban you from the sandbox! LOL
Keith's one of the best in the business.
You are absolutely right. Thanks for watching!
Nice build! That's a great amount of power out of a n/a small block
400 ci Small block I think they said .
I am sure the EFI could do better , sometimes the manifold is restrictive , and may need porting , looks cool though, has a old school look .
At the end of the day, its all about use-case. Dragstrip vs. Drivability. Higher HP numbers are useless on the street if the throttle response is boggy down low and has lower torque numbers. Or non-linear throttle response.
You can't beat an EFI setup for drivability on a Saturday afternoon.
Yeah you can with a carb and a Sunday afternoon.
The manifold used on the E.F.I. system is restrictive at high rpm
. It is a dual plane. Use a Hillborn 8 stack system E.F.I. then lets see or an Edelbrock Pro Flow that uses. a Victor Jr manifold then lets see.
Dude is a legend you can just tell
@@johnpopoff7950 my dad ran hillborn injection over 40 years ago
@@Thumper68 Yes its been around for decades. That same stacked system is E.
F.I. also
FWIW - I learned to drive in a manual transmission Volvo PV544. It as simple strong and got the job done.
First, I will state that this is an awesome looking setup and congratulations to your manifold porting guy for taking an antiquated design and getting it within striking distance of modern stuff.
However, I tire of the non apples to apples comparisons of EFI and Carbs and then the pronouncement that carbs are still superior. Modern EFI is designed for a non wet flow manifold, and yet they stack EFI throttle bodies on top and say, carburetors still better at peak hp. Love to see it reversed, lets put a carb on a dry flow intake and see how it does. Just google LS intake comparisons, there is one where they use the stock LS6 and Trail Blazer SS intakes, and included was a Holley Tunnel Ram Dual quad, Holley Mid rise dual quad, Holley single plane, Eddy Hi-rise dual plane carb, and Eddy Victor Jr single plane run with holley 950xp carbs on the single carb apps. The closest the hp got was within 10hp on the eddy single plane, and the eddy dual plane torque got within 25, of the best factory intake the trail blazer ss. When it came to the Hi-ram dual quad run with dual 950xp's, yes it made more power then the stock intakes, but when it came up against the EFI Tunnel Rams it still lost 5-10Hp and tied for torque, and lost by 5-6hp and 30ft lbs of torque to the Fast/MSD factory efi style intakes. I'm not saying carbs aren't good, but the truth is a well dyno tuned, proper EFI setup will put it down for HP, TQ, and drive-ability.
Still that motor is sexy looking lol.
Your absolutely correct.
I still like my carb ...
Take a holley 650 for the price any day, and I can rebuild it in 20 minutes lol
me too dual carb civic ef2
how about:
www.cosworth.com/race-electronics/ ?
@@evergreensongs4903 I have a dual carb eg but just started doing carb to efi conversion and putting a b series in it
@@noahjohnston2577 i wish i can switch efi too bro..but at my place the price is still high
Pretty much all comes down to airflow for both carb and EFI, the small EFI Throttle bodies didn't help the EFI cause, but an EFI system with a larger airflow would see a different result for sure. I have an Edelbrock Pro Flo XT intake on top of a Dart 434ci small block with flat tops, Dart Pro 1 cylinder heads (230cfm, 2.08" intake and 1.6" exhaust, 72cc chambers) in my 84 Corvette here in Australia. Throttle body is only 90mm LS style, but its supposed to run 1100cfm. I have installed a set of FAST 65lb LS3 injectors, a FAST ECU controls everything. I am still in the middle of 1-7/8" to 3" header and exhaust fabrication and just waiting for the new year to order a Dewitts radiator and I'll get it fired up. I am sure the injectors are a little big, but I have widened the Pro Flo XT intake and port matched to the Dart Pro 1 heads, the 434 has a huge set of lungs, so more air in, more airflow and gas and I think I might surprise a few peeps. The intake also has a longer set of intake runners from the plenum, much like a TPI, but bigger and can flow to 7000rpm.
I saw one of those fuel injection systems on a 1986 or 1987 Monte Carlo from Kankakee Illinois at the Lions Club car cruise in Morris Illinois.
EFI is the same as a Carburetor ( if sized, and adjusted properly ).
Except in one small area. Cold starting. The EFI will use less fuel.
EFI with short runners like that has another power advantage. Way more of the fuel is delivered as liquid droplets instead of vapor. The vapor takes up lots of space that could be used for air. More air plus the matching fuel in the same cylinder volume equals more power.
@@elektro3000 not to mention a nearly flat power curve. Carbs just don't make sense anymore for the street.
@@nismo4x4n EFI can help flatten out a peaky power curve that some types of carbs cause, but camshaft selection and cylinder heads have a lot to do with the shape of the power curve, too.
@@elektro3000 without a doubt, it's a total package.
@@elektro3000 but the fuel vapor cools the air witch allows for a more dense air charge even with the vapor. Both have advantages / disadvantages
Then you also got the mechanical fuel injection that sits nicely between the two.
My old mercedes has the old Bosch Ke-jet system from the 80s. It looks wacky at first but its actually a pretty smart setup once you figure it out.
I think the EFI system just ran out of fuel. If you do the math, this looks to be the case. it had eight 36 lbs/hr injectors. Which is a total of 288 lbs/hr worth of fuel. Assuming a BSFC of .55, that comes out to 523.63 hp worth of fuel. And according to your graph, it looks like it made somewhere in that neighborhood. If you replaced the 36lbs/hr injectors with 45 lbs/hr injectors, that would be a total of 360 lbs/hr. Again assuming a BSFC of .55, that would be 654.54 hp worth of fuel. Now whether or not the long block will flow enough to support that is a different story. But in my opinion you have enough fuel to match or exceed the carburetor's output. I would love to see this test with bigger injectors! 😁 Nice content btw. New sub right here!!!
That setup would look boss, on something like a 32 deuce coupe with an open engine.
I’d love to see a Holley carb vs Holley TBI that rated the same CFM on the same intake manifold running at the same AFR at top end. Any thing else is apples & oranges. You can always make more power by leaning out the carb to the ragged edge where you’d never let it out the door vs letting an FI system manage a safe default ratio. Real world, the fuel injection wins under ever changing conditions.
Yup, but with one change, the EFI can be larger with more CFM as the EFI doesn't need vacuum and a high flow rate to function well. I'll put a 1000 CFM throttle body on an engine that I wouldn't go larger then a 750 vacuum secondary carb on.
With that 830CFM double pumper, even being a double pumper and properly tuned ya floor it from 1200 RPM under load and it'll go suck, pop, pop, buck, stall. Ya toss just a 1000 CFM throttle body EFI on it, do the same thing it'll go suck, pause, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
Love that unique intake sweet set up
its not always about peak power but more about drive ability and ease of use.
A flat torque line is desireable.
Whatever GM has on my2010 C-6 Vette is fine by me. Press the pedal and it acellerates smoothly from whever i started until I run out of nerve. Great demonstration.
Probably drive by wire throttle control. Meaning push the pedal to the floor, computer opens the throttle. That provides the extremely smooth throttle response. BMW started with it in the 90's. Typical driver doesn't know enough about torque and RPM to manage the throttles optimally. With carbs, vacuum secondaries were a plus because the rear butterflies wouldn't open until sufficient vacuum was attained. The old six packs were staged.
7:31 - it shouldn't have came as a surprise the 4x2 intake made more bottom end. The virtually independent runner/venturi kept velocities up, and kept low RPM reversion from contaminating the flow of adjacent cylinders.
I think what surprised him most, was that it outperformed on low end with such short runners. The great thing about ITB (independent throttle body) setups, is the effective runner length becomes the TOTAL length of the induction system... not just the intake runners themselves. I know this isn't true ITB... but effectively, it is... because each cylinder has its own intake runner and throttle valve, only sharing a small portion of flow from a minute vacuum reference channel, and the top of the air horn. Furthermore, EFI has a fantastic ability that carb simply doesn't have... the ability to compensate tuning with unstable vacuum signal. Yes, I know they drilled the intake for a common signal... but carb fuel delivery REQUIRES vacuum.... where as EFI only uses it as part of the reference. A properly tuned short runner ITB setup can make nearly as much bottom end as a long runner setup, when Alpha-N tuning is used below the reversion point (the point at which the incoming air compresses against the back of the closed valve, rebounding like a coilover shock and causing a sudden spike in pressure back up the intake runner... a distance which is longer at low RPM).The benefit of EFI's pressurized fuel delivery can really shine in these setups, with proper tuning... because the fuel delivery can be controlled AND delivered regardless of vacuum signal. Where as the flow of fuel through carb boosters gets wildly distorted with reversion and turbulent flow.
With properly sized throttle bodies, this engine would've outperformed the carb setup throughout the powerband.
The only place carb wins out over EFI (oddly enough) is horsepower per CFM. Common sense would say EFI should win out here, because the fuel is delivered AFTER the throttle body. At peak enrichment, that's about 7% of the available flow that isn't occupied by fuel, as it is with a carburetor. This is where carb magic pops in. With fuel being added under low pressure, the atomization of the fuel cools the intake charge, much like an intercooler on a turbo setup... condensing the charge, while allowing the low pressure zone to effect a larger area of the intake tract, and thus triggering more flow of a more dense mixture throughout the induction. High pressure fuel delivery, even high on the runner like most EFI retrofit system, will never be able to compete in this area... which used to be a CRUCIAL factor in delaying the uptake of EFI into racing, ESPECIALLY restrictor plate racing. For years, they simply couldn't wrap their head around why they should switch from a carb system that makes 'X' horsepower with 'Y' size induction orifice, when EFI often required more flow for the same output.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not a carb hater. Carbs also win out in another area. A properly tuned carb will atomize fuel better, and provide better fuel economy in that specific range it's tuned for. The low pressure delivery under vacuum lowers the effective evaporation point of the fuel, facilitating better atomization... but EVERYTHING must be perfectly tuned, and the benefit only remains for as long the operating conditions remain static... including load, RPM, intake density, and temperature.
I like the comparison. I'll stick to my carbs. Fuel injection is great for drive ability, but I don't like the electronics. But also in reality very few of the engines will ever hit 5-6 grand. A race engine is different, but I still prefer carbs, and mopars. I also use stock ignitions, they work.
Growing up in the early 80's the one thing that most cars that could do crazy burnouts with no assistance from your brakes were the cars and trucks that had the Holley double pumpers. 🚙. 💨
STREETABILITY is still where my heart is...
Everyone wants to stack the deck so efi wins and they can justify their investment. However, the facts speak for themselves, a properly sized and tuned carb will hold its own and most of the time exceed what you can get out of any throttle body efi system.
Surely the low retro style intake on the injected engine must limit it's power?
Bigger concern (To me) is that the system is clearly undersized for the engine. There's a reason the normal Chevy kits are running significantly larger throttle bodies; These smaller units are choking out the top end.
Ehh not so much low, both manifolds were short. But the lack of a common plenum totally killed it's high RPM potential.
I'd say that makes sense. If that manifold was developed back in the day when stroker kits were not common, then it was probably meant for a 327/350. Be interesting to do the comparison with that capacity as a baseline.
Build the carburetor system like a motorcycle simple and easy to tune together syncing is no problem take a lesson from the Japanese it figured it out 30 years ago
Why this old, antiquated individual throttle body/port, Weber style manifold? How about a Victor EFI manifold, port injection and a 1000+ CFM 4 barrel throttle body? This, in my opinion, wasnt a fair example/comparison. This coming from a guy who came from carbs and distributors. Can you all do a test on the same engine with the aforementioned setup?
Yeah, this is really a comparison of a too-small mystery swap meet carb manifold adapted to EFI vs a modern carb/manifold setup. The results are not surprising.
@@177SCmaro we all know if they would've used the setup I suggested, the resulted would've been closer or even better compared to the carb setup. And being able to fine tune it. And being able to hit the key and almost have no maintenance (carb cleaning, constant carb adjustments, etc). Go to the track make adjustments with clicks vs jet changes and fooling with a distributor....
@@jaydubb71 I've been driving everywhere I need to go on the same Holley vacuum secondary 600 for literally ten years, my car starts up instantly even in freezing temps and I have a vid showing proof of that. In the ten years I've been relying on that carb I've only had two problems with it, I had to replace a dried out leaking needle and seat once after the car sat for a year during a delayed engine swap and I also had to order a new number 35 squirter to match some porting and choke tower removal I did with a Dremel tool.
@@Impactjunky carbs suck okay...
@@elonmust7470 I wont say that they suck BUT I will say that they have had their time. My 91 Camaro is getting a fuel injected and turbo'd LQ4. I was going to do a blow-thru carbed 355/383 but after having the LS light shone upon me, Im hooked. I learned to tune EFI years ago and I will never look back. And I will NEVER put a carb on an LS. The Holley 4 bbl carb and ignition LS kit is 800 bucks ALONE! Why DOWNGRADE an LS with a carb and have mixture distribution issues and need a plenum spider like a single plane on a SBF? No point. I would like to see a test with the configuration I mentioned earlier. @thehorspowermonster, will you all try this setup?
This is interesting, especially considering that you're going over 5500 rpm with a stroker and running roller cams and roller tip rockers. I do not trust either. I will keep my spring pressures lower with a solid flat tappet cam and ductile 1.5:1 iron rocker arms on thick walled shafts instead of studs.
As to the carb selection, wouldnt a better comparison be a dual 4bbl setup against those throttle bodys? And do a progressive and straight linkage test, and get the AFR dialed in on the carbs, like you can so easily do by computer with the EFI?
Thanks for the video, I appreciated it, but I am sticking with dual quad AVS2 500 cfm carbs.
A better comparison would have been to choose velocity stacks for the efi system that matched the carb in airflow. If that was done you'd have seen a much broader and useable rpm range. This setup was not well thought out.
That's just your mopar bias...Lol
We know shaft rockers are better...
You know Chevy's are better!
Them showing a clip or 2 of them tuning the efi doesn't mean it was fast or easy. It could have been but they also said they modified the intake to allow a common map signal which most likely helped a ton with tuning
Way back in 65 when I ran a Shelby GT350 at Elkhart Lake. The 289 (actually 294 with a bore clean up bore from Shelby. Back then the engine used 4, 48 IDA. Webber’s. It was factory rated at 385 hp LOL, Right! It ran a Crane Roller cam from Shelby.
What disappoints here is no talk of ‘area under the curve’. That mechanic is right about the better drivability of low-end torque.
I have 99 Aurora aluminum head aluminum block EFI zero to 60 3 seconds I love this car
Yes having a bigger diameter throttle for the EFI would increase power at the top end. But it will come to a point where as they said, what application the engine is designed for. Peak power or drivability? 44mm is way too small for such a large displacement engine. Would love to see it having 50mm butterflies instead vs the carb. Not to mention having better response, fuel economy and power in any temperature or weather condition.. the benefits of EFI are obvious.
Should have done a IDF or DCOE to vs those throttle body's .
Jenvey make TBs in both those types of Webers. I would have gone for the IDF-style with at least a 48mm tapered bore, it not a 50mm as a minimum, on an engine of that capacity and potential gas flow.
@@brucelamberton8819 actually got two 2x50mm jenvey throttle bodies to fit my dcoe manifold for my stroker volvo engine 44mm on a V8 sounds extremely restricting considering i run 50's on a 3.1L I4 and still wonder if i should have went for 52mm or 55 millimeters, but for roadeuse i guess the 50's bring a bit more air velocity at low rpm's
Carb is better especially for a budget build.
unless you plan to daily it then the fuel stops will get allot more frequent with the carbs whasting what you saved during the building of it
Cool!! Never seen anyone did an ITB tune on a Chevy V8!!
Those throttle bodies where made in Goleta California by Garry Polled
Gary the GREAT
@@ianmangham4570 When we worked together at Cannon induction he had the nickname "Cupcake" or "Crumpet" By some of the employees
@@hybriddyneguy 😃
Seen a video a while back on a old 4 cylinder with ITBs and they had some very significant increases in power simply swapping to longer trumpets. If i remember I think they picked up 20HP or so from a 50mm trumpet to a 102mm trumped or something like that. If they got those increases with that little thing I could easily see this big boy picking up at least 40hp switching to longer trumpets.
Very cool and attractive EFI setup! For a build that doesn't have to have the absolute best horsepower numbers it's a good choice. Plus EFI setups are just easier to cold start. I love my carbs but sometimes they can be a little moody with big temperature changes even with the choke set right.
Double pumper still being use today 👍👍
I seriously like the EFI set-up!
Well it looks cool, functions like shit though.
@@snek9353 no shit, it was a poor man's EFI setup (not proper EFI) and way to small throttle bodies. 44mm on a V8? i run 50's on a I4... and it's restricting.... but going bigger would kill low end torque and i want a proper street drivable engine
Interesting video. Another interesting comparison would be including a Holley Sniper or FITech in these dyno tests.
That workshop is as clean as a doctor's surgery. Obviously people who take pride in what they do.
Great comparo! Would love to see more of the dyno numbers- air intake temps, ex ox , etc.
i like those injection throttle bodies! . a few years back a customer asked me to get his E type V12 running. it had 6 weber IDA's , The car had been restored about 30 years ago but never driven,just used as a display piece. I fought with that sucker for months ,rebuilding most of the engine except the short block, and those webers? they refused to work. Even running it on a dyno adjusting them on the fly made zero difference to lack of low end power. They would only work above 3000 RPM ,which in a E type is well into license losing territory. In the end i got it almost running right but a cracked piston bought the project to a halt. It turned out to have the wrong heads and the ignition wasn't up to the task of the heads. If i had access to 6 of those throttle bodies and using a better ignition we could have made the car run. The customer sold the car and bought an identical one with fuel injection ....
Very interesting. I've heard lots of horror stories from the "good old days" of trying to get multiple carb setups properly tuned for an engine. Car styling today can't hold a candle to many of the older cars, but personally, I'm quickly coming to love EFI. Thanks for watching!
Mercmad : The Panther J72 had a factory option of the 5.3 liter Jaguar V12 with the Unipart Six Weber 40 DCi's. Same 2.36 mm 16 gauge gauze primary stone filters as Keith Dorton removed in the video. The low end loss is due to the very bad transitorised ignition curve and the need to find proper air correctors and emulsion tubes to create a flat fuel delivery of 12.5:1 from off idle to 6500 rpm. The J72 V12 12 barrel was a true 14 second, 140 mph replica of a Jag SS 100, and did in gears increments of 4.5 seconds from 30 to 50 mph in top...like a freight train. Any car that takes 2.4 seconds to get to 30 mph, or 5.7 to 60 mph doesnt have a torque problem. The six carbs had just 30 mm chokes...plenty to make 360 hp at 6000 rpm on a 326 V12. Multiple EFi throttle body systems or Independent runner carbs need carefull calibration against the time honoured Eudardo Weber/David Vizard/ Jenvey / PMO's idealised venturi to cylinder size graph. If each of the throttle or venturis are undersized just a 40 thou from the chart, you can loose 50 hp at 7000 rpm in a 350 cube V8....its very sensitive due to boundary layer air flow getting very rough. Aston MartinsSouth African 1985 580 X version of the Vantage DBS V8 gained another 60 hp with a routed out four Weber system, mostly due to how restrictive the earl carbs were on the 390 hp version. The carb throttles were opened up 80 thou.
I’d love to see the difference in the 1/4 mile. The fuel injected would launch very hard.. and the carbed would probably have a higher speed?
Hmmm...I like the low end tourqe gains....but the cost $ difference between the dbl pumper...and the 3 Weber's + unknown custom intake. I'm sure is a huge difference in affordably.. great video...but for the average person. I'm sure the carb is the way to go for affordable power. Wish we could all have our dream set ups..but you guys proved. That it's not always money...that makes the power..loved the video great content.!
Thanks for the kind words!
Im from polk ga. Right beside you i love the vid
Both Equipment Is Best, Just How Expert To Use This Equipment, .... God Bless Bro, ....... Cheerio.🌠👍👍👍🌠🌠🌟🌠🌠.
Why are people still building these V8s? Does the old SBC have any technical advantages over the LS era engines?
Is it just people wanting "the look" for nostalgia?
Veryyyyyy Coool!
Thanks! And thanks for watching!
Milan dark aqui deixo o like tbm ! Kkkk
instablaster
I'm not a chevy fan, however the info is good and who doesnt like a lot of carburetors on any engine
With current fuel types, I would go with the efi setup. (and stick a 02 sensor in the exhaust so the ecu can self correct.)
Nick's Garage did the same test with EFI V carb. Again the carb made more power but a EFI system will give better fuel economy as the fuel flow can be better controlled .
I understand that larger ITB throats can lose low-end in the search for more top-end HP. Often wondered what was the best compromise for common engines such as the more popular LS.
Getting ready to rebuild a ‘67 mustang with a 289, all original with just under 8,000 miles for the Henry Ford museum. Then put my DZ302 on the dyno, kinda curious on how rpm’s it’s gonna twist.
Sounds like fun!
Really fun video that basically tells us nothing. But really entertaining nonetheless. I'd love to see the Chevy specific EFI test with bigger throttle bodies! Regardless, I loved watching this.
5:43 Happy Face valve cover breathers ! Those are worth AT LEAST 50 happy ponies ! 🤣👌🏻
Cool, be interesting to see comparisons between engines with directly comparable intakes - like three deuces carbies and TBs on the same manifold.
I would agree that cabies and points can produce the same peak power, or torque, but the managment 'should' be able to better the older tech' away from those peaks. Even if one runs a carb' (or more than one), being able to tailor the exact ignition requirements the engine needs, should increase torque before and after the peaks. With a temperature map, one can even increase the cold timing and pull it at the top for very hot weather, for better driveability and reduced 'pinging'.
A friend of mine makes the filters that go on top of the injection ports...
Still hard to beat a dominator on a big block for the price, or a built small block...
I'd like to see a comparison using an Enderle Bird Catcher on about a 500" drag racing motor vs. a properly sized crab setup. If you've done one, great! Link it, if not and you run across one, Link it! I run a 500" Mopar, Indy 440-1 heads, Bird Catcher on Methanol. It's NA and given the Methanol, I run the compression ratio at right around 15.5:1. I tune it a little conservatively to make parts last longer. Getting the last drop out for one pass on my budget isn't worth it. I fought with carbs on Mopars for years. Mopars are the most temperamental POS's if you try to over-carb them. Even on a 500" 13ish:1 we could not make a 1050 dom work. We were driving it to the line so by the time we got up there the plugs would be black and you just can't clean em out at that point. We had it jetted about as low as it would go before it would stop responding. I suspect a 950cfm carb would have worked great but, again...Mopars seem to just refuse to be over-carbed...even by a fairly small amount. Chevy...they put bigish four barrels on v-6s...and it worked pretty good!
My 15.5:1 Motor in a 2600 ish pound tube chassis car did some 9.20s in the quarter but the car was a real handful. Very short wheel base and it took a real expert to get it aligned properly. But once he did it, the car went straight as a string! Unless I got loose...then you lift! LOL There's only so much you can do with a short wheelbase car! I wish I'd kept some 1/8th slips from back then but I just didn't remember to. (where I lived 1/8 was the deal for hundreds of miles) I gave upon carbs the minute I tried the bird catcher. There's just no matching the tunability (especially with Methanol) and more importantly to me, simplicity. Mechanical Fuel Injection may be nearly impossible to make work on the street but it sure works well on the strip. It would need to change 40 degrees before I'd even be able to notice a pill change. Great vid! Thanks and I'll be a new subscriber.
You have the same torque wrench I've used all my life
If you consider total power, it's a bit closer fight. I wonder what port injection would do to the curves.
Budget street engine go with in cab AFR gauge and edlebrock carb. You are the ecm and the jets are easy to change.
that may have been true 20 years ago but efi ecu's and injectors can be had cheap now. With efi you can have perfect driveability at all points in the rpm and change your mapping at will.
A carb is a calibrated fuel leak. A Holley is a fuel leak waiting to happen
Efi is for fags!!! Holly double pumper old school !!!
@@wayneoneal7952 EFI still wins, a FAST intake with stock efi on a Ls6 will out perform almost every combination of carbs. Not to mention its cheaper, WAAAAY easier to tune, more efficient, and takes up less space.
@The Horsepower Monster I'd be interested to see the numbers with that better-flowing EFI setup, as it seems like this one was running out of air on the top-end.
the amount of hassle you avoid using carburators (mafs, sensors, cables, ecus, mappings, cats..) it worth to learn how to set them right. That's the only thing you need to know, and you will be free.
A better manifold might improve the numbers too.
yeah that no name probably doesn't do anything to help
Can we get a video on mechanical fuel injection? It's an oddball method of fuel delivery that I don't think gets enough attention outside of drag racing.
44mm TBs are too small for best power with 625cc cylinders (5.0L V8), and far too small for 825cc (6.6L V8). On a V8 engine of this displacement, this particular EFI is sized for "street cruiser" operation with instant throttle response and part throttle torque, not big power.
tubad4ya : Your 100% right. Way too small. It needs 54mm throttle size if it has no chokes to make power past 4000 to 7000, where a proper sized TWM 8 stack will make well over 600 hp. I havent muktiplied everything by 1.333 to compute for a 350 V8 as my back ground is 6 cylinder cars with 40 mm chokes and 45 mm throttles. They heal over at just 306 hp. Up to 1.181" or 30mm,180 hp sixup to 1.260" or 32mm, 198 hp sixup to 1.378" or 35mm, 234 hp sixup to 1.496" or 38mm, 276 hp sixup to 1.575" or 40mm, 306 hp sixup to 1.653" or 42mm, 336 hp six Up to 1.771" or 45mm, 390hp sixup to 1.889" or 48mm, 444 hp sixup to 1.968" or 50mm, 480 hp sixup to 2.047" or 52mm, 522 hp sixup to 2.126" or 54mm, 558 hp six.
Would like to see a competition between Carb and EFI manufacturer's / enthusiasts both can do better....8 barrel EFI vs Twin 4 barrel weber same air fuel ratio same enjin own designed intake....etc.
Why not use IR manifolds with separate tb:s (i.e. in cross with the tb:s located somewhere above the valve covers)? The manifold used seemed to have many bends of the airflow => pressure drop => less VE and also logical to the top end in this comparison?
BTW: Objectively Formel 1 left carburettors of any kind in the early sixties.
But even with the same VE map over the rpm-range a properly mapped fuel & ignition EFI is indeed very hard to beat due to the extreme possibility of quality in the fuel and timing resolution vs load, this is simply not possible with carburettors and/or distributors...
big difference between the 2 specially spark advance and injector size and frequency
I thought I heard in the video that those particular Borla EFI units were designed to replace Weber carbs. I'm just imagining them on an old Triumph TR-3A . . . The hardest part would be hiding the damn computer!
they make throttle bodies...except they're dcoe replacements. the dcoe was an SU replacement
@@62orangeshirt My mistake in calling them EFI units instead of throttle bodies. It had been a long day when I wrote that :D
some times you have to decide what's more important, looks or power. Most likely this engine will never see redline again after this so more power up to 4000 rpm will work out great. If it were me I would get rid of the individual throttle bodies and go with a large single, most likely it would make the same or slightly less power than the carb. Its hard to beat a carb for power, that's latent heat of evaporation working there.
Never seen a efi make more power than a old school carb. Efi is just more convenient.
and they run properly at < WOT
I do. In Europe we abolished carbs decades ago. We can make small engines with large power outputs, better mpg, better driveability and low emmissions nowadays. 👌😁
Too bad they didn't have some larger throttle bodies to test. Those 44mm throttle bodies were probably too small. I'm willing to bet some 52mm throttle bodies would make a noticeable difference.
Efi is better for drivability... that’s about it😂 there’s a reason you see a dominance of carbs at the strip or even street race cars... I only run carbs for my street race/strip cars. Better peaks for everything, cheaper, and easier to tune. I don’t have to really tune my carbs too often though because I get them built through pro systems. I’ll never convert to efi. I like efi in my daily drivers though😂 great video.
I would love to have this setup on a 383 strokes with about 475 hp ( stack injection ).
Soooo ... what would happen with a larger-flowing EFI system... that could give you the lower-end 'early' torque... AND electronically control the fuel flow all the way thru the High-Flow top-end...?? Particularly if mounted on a medium-rise manifold, that would give you some runner length...
it's becoming difficult to keep a carburetor alive if you live in a place where ethanol-free fuel is not available. modern efi systems are immune from ethanol damage.
i have an old 1974 gmc half-ton pickup with a 350/turbo350 and an edelbrock performer intake and edelbrock performer 600cfm carb. i don't use it very much, it gets used maybe 5-6 times each year for dump runs but it mostly sits around. it was always a dependable and reliable rig until the introduction of ethanol... even though i installed an electric fuel pump to eliminate the mechanical one which allows me to shut off the fuel so the carburetor will go dry when i shut it off i still get major corrosion problems so i have to take the carburetor apart and clean it out twice a year, sometimes more often than that. i'm really tempted to swap to a factory tbi manifold and throttle body but i'd rather not use the original gm c3 efi system, even though i own a scan tool that can talk to that system...
webber style efi had power curve strait as a board!
I wonder what spacers under the throttle bodies would do for the curves......?