What if Mary Queen of Scots Never Returned From France?
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- Опубликовано: 29 мар 2024
- Mary Queen of Scots must present more 'What ifs' in Scottish history than any other. Scottish history tour guide, Bruce Fummey sits down with two fantastic historians to ask What if Mary had remained in France?
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Scotland History Tours is here for people who want to learn about Scottish history and get ideas for Scottish history tours. I try to make videos which tell you tales from Scotland's past and give you information about key dates in Scottish history and historical places to visit in Scotland. Not all videos are tales from Scotland's history, some of them are about men from Scotland's past or women from Scotland's past. Basically the people who made Scotland. From April 2020 onward I've tried to give ideas for historic days out in Scotland. Essentially these are days out in Scotland for adults who are interested in historical places to visit in Scotland.
As a Scottish history tour guide people ask: Help me plan a Scottish holiday, or help me plan a Scottish vacation if your from the US. So I've tried to give a bit of history, but some places of interest in Scotland as well.
Upcoming Live shows www.brucefummey.co.uk/shows.aspx
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Hasn’t this guy the BEST voice for telling stories and enriching our lives with his tales/education 😊❤
Definitely!! I listen while I drive.
@-SueT. I asked Bruce if he considered doing audio books, but he pointed out he already had a full schedule. He really is a fantastic story teller and his videos are frequently better than TV, I reckon.
I love his voice.
Second only to the Immaculate Billy Connolly
I like how Bruce is so proud of his heritage which shows through his presentation of these stories…
Me 2...am buying Bruce a pint in Seaforth Ontario when he does the Canadian shows this summer❤
(Maybe 2 half pints Bruce, its quite dear here)
Mary was extremely brave to come back as a catholic queen to a country during the protestant reformation
She was, however, she was doomed in that choice, the reformation was there to stay & it was overwhelmingly a positive movement irrespective of religious beliefs at that time.
"You'd all be speaking French." Well, with the high proportion of French borrowed words in our language, it might be argued that we ARE speaking it.
Plus the english nobility primarily spoke French.
Possibly the most important period in the history of the home nations,Englands millennial long rivalry with France,not only shaped the history of these islands but spilled out across the globe and shaped the western world!
I like the way Bruce always makes history come alive, even though it all happened 100s of years ago.
What a period of time! The “what if?” shows are fantastic, because the experts give lots of information to back up their assumptions. This really adds so much richness to these discussions. Fantastic!!!
The thing is, It's the *people* of Scotland who are *sovereign* , Not the crown nor the country itself.
Bruce, I want to be clear. I really like your stories. But this is the second time I've seen you bring in experts in different specific subjects and the discussion is fascinating, genuinely fascinating! Thank you ❤
That's the intention
Its great when people discuss the what ifs in history most enjoyable way to spend a morning and then race to the books to read about the time, place and people very enjoyable
I am really enjoying the “What if….” Series. Thank you, Bruce!
Ah thanks
To be honest I don't think Catherine de Medici would have wanted Mary to stay in France, she wanted to reduce the Guise faction at her court.
Catherine was regent for Charles IX after Francois death, she didn't want Mary anywhere near the throne.
Lord Bruce! Me weak brain is spinning! So many people, places, plots, twists! Plus rapid fire banter with your Mary experts! After a few more viewings, I might see the light! Thanks!!
As an American, I was under the impression that citizens of Scotland were also considered citizens of France under one of the Marian treaties until 1912. That didn't come out or wasn't expressed. Thanks! Love your videos.
Another great video Bruce! This has become an enjoyable Saturday ritual, a cup of coffee, a cigarette & some Scottish history tours. I love learning about the history & culture of my ancestors & I learn so much in such a laid back & down to earth manor. Thank you 💙🏴
Same!! I'm trying to replace the cig for Zyn, and walking laps around the parking lot, instead. It's cut down on the lung damage a bit!
These videos with professors have been great!
Glad you like them!
Love these "What if" episodes - more please 👍
- its really sobering to understand just how turbulent these times were. Mary was really young, obviously vulnerable & little more than a pawn in Europe's geopolitics.
Really liking the What If videos; hearing the viewpoints and the respectful disagreements between guests. Drives home the point that history is sometimes the result of completely random events.
Thank you for another fascinating discussion! I read in a book eons ago that Mary would have supplanted Catherine de Medici as Dowager Queen with her own estates and income, and that Catherine didn't cotton to that status change. The thinly veiled hostility from de Medici might explain why Mary fled to England for support versus France...
Quick question, it was stated that the clauses "were lost." Where did they go? Was Mary's mother alive at the time of that secret treaty, and if so, was Mary able to consult her - or anyone other than those mentioned - before she had to sign that treaty? Just curious...
Thank you again!
The rough wooing springs to mind, Another great video from Bruce
Have to rewatch this episode X3 !! Excellent.
Wish I lived back in Scotland , great teachers of history.
Happy Easter bonny Scots.
I'm surprised that they get the death of Francis wrong. It was Francis's father, Henri II, who died from the jousting accident. Francis, only a teenager, died of an infection soon after.
Also, I was waiting for the Guise to appear, and they eventually did. The Guise family is crucial to this whole story, both in France and Scotland, because Mary Stuart's mother was Mary of Guise.
Wow!
Yes, that was a real ooopsie. Francis died from an ear infection, possibly otitis that went septic. There were rumours at the time that he was poisoned in a Protestant plot to destabilise France. Conspiracy theories are nothing new.
Love watching the channel. Fabulous. I'm one of hundreds of Bourbon descendants, and while watching your video was suddenly hit with a thought iid never has in my life... if Mary Q of S had never been beheaded, I would never have existed! Quite a thought when you raise stuff like this. Thank you for the channel. So much fun to watch
I've not been in the museum for a while, walk past it all the time. I'll need to pop in. Great video Bruce
Do it!! I'm jealous!!
Thank you for another great "What if..." video, Bruce. Loved it.
I also wanted to let you know that while recently watching an excellent film, The Lost King, at about 17 minutes in I spotted this very familiar guy among the cast of characters.
😲 I instantly hit the pause button and said, "Wait a minute! I know this guy!" There you were. You gave a wonderful performance. Bravo!!
A great pleasure, again! Thank you.
Thanks again!
Another banger for my un history learned brain Bruce. Feel real sad for Mary, its like she had no other options. Thank you for sharing the excellent, rational conversation based in reality and expanding my knowledge. BTW...2025 sounds effn amazing!!!
Glad you enjoyed it
I lnow little about Scotland's history. But this is endlessly fascinating to this American of Scots-Irish ancestry whose family came over in the late 17th century.
I love you so much. If you hadn't noticed, I sometimes dont make scent. I do apprecate how kind you are Bruce responding back to me. Three Saturdays ago I ask to learn more about Clans, lands , that was a two for one vid and a What if about Mary Queen of the Scotts!!! You not only answered my what if question and you double down more info, I didn't know. This video showed I knew nothing about Queen Mary at all. Im also still vurbing After you said toddler I stupidly looked it up before watching the vid fully. Im still so vurbing. Thanks for the info on the two tours. ? dont you have a tour and a show for your birthday too? Bruce and Crew I do love you and your families. Blessed belated Ostara n Happy Easter.Other than more coastlines to ask for, you have a lot of history and lands / people . Thank you so much I look forward to reading their books. Hugs Kisses & Giggles
I've learned more about history from you and other similar channels in the last few years compared to the education I have received in the US. Love you man!
What a fascinating video Bruce! Really like the input of specialized historians on this particular period in history. The speculations are a great insight into the thoughts and ideologies of so many world players and it helps to put actual events into a greater perspective. Great work!
Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of what if's, but this was absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much. I think having the extra voices there was a huge help.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Another quality history lesson. Thank you for your knowledge , but also giving us the opportunity to hear from experts too. Well done once again. Thank you Mr Bruce! 🖤
Our pleasure!
Even more food for thought - what if 🌞
There's a good chance she'd have been taller when she died.
A'reyt Bruce. Happy Easter.
The way the Scottish royal family courted both England and France reminds me of the way Scottish clans played for both sides with the elder and younger sons fighting for different factions.
It is like the way the Tories always cover both sides of an argument. Just look at the names, like Cameron.
People got a bit sick of those royalty back then, if you look at the War of the Three Kingdoms. I am not sure much would have changed, because of the religious part to the history back then.
I can speak French and German, but I think the English would not have stood for a French king any more than they did Charles I. They had a German king, but did not suddenly change language. I reckon that somehow those languages just do not fit the English character.
Wahey the brucey-fella is back :have had a disappointing day at work so am so glad to a: hear your voice b: be educated and c: just enjoy this video -thank you bud
WoW!! That's definitely something to ponder! Thanks for planting the concept in my brain. I really enjoy your videos!!
Thanks Bruce. Another brilliant video. I really enjoyed the entire "What if" exploration.
Thanks 👍
Brilliant presentation, Bruce - yet again😎👍
"Royal weddings are cheaper than big wars..." 🤔
(O so many ulterior motives all along with the Auld Alliance, eh)
(A very contested place):
"Unlike how smoothly it runs..."😅🤣😂
"Mademoiselle Moneypenny" (Conneryesque)😜👌
"Everyone's got a plan until they get a punch in the face."
(Ain't it the truth, though - certainly for 🏴History!)😊
Only Fummey could make such a topic so intriguing to take in...
(had to watch it through THREE flittin times to keep it all sorted)😅🤣😂
Bravo😉👏
The main reason she came home was cause
1)she was all alone after the death of her young husband
2) she was away from support
3) she was lonely
4) she was looking to take her throne
5/ they didn't sell Buckfast in France 😂😂
@@loxism72or iron bru
Also, Catherine de Medici did not want her to stay in France. She wanted her rival away from the French throne
Loving your rapier like wit. Touché
Fascinating period of history, so interesting to speculate what would have happened.
Another great video. Things could've been so different with really so little changing. Thank you again.
Glad it was helpful!
Really informative - context is everything especially for this period of our history.
I'm a descendent of Queen Mary! ❤
Great video cheers Bruce 🙏
I LOVE this topic!
I just recognized you in The Lost King!!
Excellent video, Bruce. Most "What if?" videos don't get too deep like yours do. Makes all the dfference.
Glad you like them!
Happy Blessed Oysters to you Fummey Family and Crew & families
Episode on Hamiltons, please.
Love these longer length biographies. Thanks Bruce!
Love your stuff.
And if there was a French/Scottish alliance I’m sure that not only would Scottish lords expanded across the English borders but there probably wouldn’t have been the Scottish land clearances and the Irish famine a few centuries later……
Some say that Nostradamus predicted Henry II's death. Also interesting is that the man who accidentally killed Henry II of France was a French Count of Scottish extraction.
If that goes well I will needled crew too. Cause I love you all!!
Two questions Bruce either for you OR for the two historian experts: with Mary having been raised and schooled, obviously in France -- 1) did she know very much at all about Scotland other than the fact that she was born there and 2) Was her primary language French and did she not know any of the Scots Gaelic language?
She spoke Scots and French (as well as some other languages) but she didn't learn English till her imprisonment.
@@ScotlandHistoryTours Ah, interesting.
Is it true that the Lamonts 'hid' Mary at Toward Castle for a time? Are there details of the circumstances of that if it did happen? Loving the videos from Australia.
Is/was there a cultural difference in the East & West of Scotland more nuanced than lowlands vs highlands? G’mornin Bruce, cheers from the States!
Mary Queen of Scots is my favorite of all Royals.
💚
I would love to know how they know about the secret document surrounding the marriage to Francis. Does the document still exist and if so, where?
16:35 whew! 😂
your tour sounds like fun, but would never be able to leave Australia
If the BBC produced these videos I might still be paying the licence fee... Braw stuff Bruce.
🤠💜
HAPPY EASTER TO EVERYONE!!! Does anyone actually know how the Resurrection of Christ came to be named for a goddess of spring? Just asking.
Chocolate eggs mate
Blatent thievery tae some or jist sharing the day tae ithirs
ty my kin are the McDonnell's of glengarry and clan Anderson
I don’t think Catherine de Medici gave Mary much of a choice. She wasn’t ready to let Mary wed one of her other sons, and Mary wasn’t ready to wed someone of lower rank. So Catherine hustles Mary out of France.
French, but with a Scottish accent!
Hi , It's the Street sweeper from Powis Aberdeen again , interesting vid as always, you fairly get about, I have recently uploaded some of my tracks with videos Woodster 67 maybe U can check them out on your journeys . Independents like you inspire me. Go on Sir.🥁🎹🎸🎤✌️🏴
Fit like fae the ithir side i toon
@@pamelaadam9207 Hi hope U liked my tunes and vids
"I think she's dead." No, I'm not. (Monty Python)
So my friend Cyrstal from Bag O Day just show Aberdeen yarn. The yarn so made me think of you. I now have a real request Fishing fishin net an the craft (And rope too) some patterns are only from scotland, Ireland ,England n Wales all have diffrent style My Da was a Pencile neck geek as a teen to his 50ties Goes to BurningMan still Ranger Longpig. He shared only some rope knots. Anyway Aberdeen yarn is ( space of god thoughts ) fabby the color the way it was weavedlike rope floored me. But totally made me thing of you braids. I might be poor But I would love to know your fav whiskey under $ 30 for you to pick up at in ur home town Plus loom you something for your sweet 60 th birthday!!! you or family send my wool blended 2 or 3 wgt yarn from Canandian CO I will loom the a cape if you want. When I learn what Im doing on chucky loom I had paln to fine out yur address to mail your wife n daughter a loomed sahwl, Just cause you n crew make me look forward to Saturdays vids
1:56 is that the easter egg version of Mary?
Bruce, you are a marvelous story teller, and I love learning all about Scottish History. If I ever get to Scotland, I will definitely book you for a tour!
Please do!
My genealogy says that Mary was one of my ancestors.
Once again Bruce your own search for knowledge about the history of Scotland what if, or if only. Now the big what if. What if Scotland had stayed independent from England. How would this have happened and what would s Scotland look like today. Would the people be as social. Would we have our own parliament. Would we be more inclusive or less as a society. This would totally change the fabric of Scotland and how we see ourselves. Now. It's abit more than just a parliament in Edinburgh. From the highlands to the borders. Were would the border even be. All very interesting to why we are the nation we are today. I see a dynamic Scotland, but I also see a Scotland that is fearfull.ots also not confident in it's own skin within certain quarters. Its people sone holding on to a union that may not be the best but it's safe. Pr a dynamic Scotland free but may fail. Or would it. 😮😮
"Were would the border even be." Where it currently is. Not an inch north or south.
How would that have affected her half brother if she had not returned
I've got a video about that
"And you'd ALL be speaking FRENCH!! . . .
Or GERMAN, whichever the case should be!!"
The unsettling fact that CATHERINE DE MEDICI and MARY detested one another would have made STAYING IN FRANCE Preposterous. The only Solution, METHINKS, is that MARY would settle somewhere else in Europe: anywhere but FRANCE, SCOTLAND, or ENGLAND!
What if Mary had fled to France instead of England?
What if Prince Charlie hadn’t turned back?
It's coming
I really don't think the Valois monarchy could have successfully ruled England or Scotland, let alone both. They had their own domestic religious problems, and ultimately couldn't even control France. The French Wars of Religion are a pet interest of mine, and they were extremely bloody. Hundreds of thousands died, and they were only resolved through compromise.
The Hapsburgs are brought up here as a positive example of a complex multi-religious state during this period. The Hapsburgs in the Holy Roman Empire (i.e. Germany) fought their own brutal religious war (The German Peasants' War) in the 1520's. Hundreds of thousands died, and it was only resolved through compromise. The peace lasted just under a hundred years, before it erupted again in 1618 (The Thirty Years War) which killed millions, and was only resolved through compromise. 16th/17th century religious conflict could be absolutely fanatical. Many on both sides were 100% convinced of their righteousness and were 100% ready to kill and die for what they perceived as the 'true' religion. Religion was far more important than nationality at this point in history.
Both England and Scotland became firmly Protestant, and although a strong Catholic monarchy might have slowed the process, I doubt it would have stopped it. Scotland ultimately rejected Mary because she was Catholic. England also rejected every other potential Catholic monarch after their own Mary. I don't think French Catholic rulers would have been seen more positively in either nation. Protestant Scots and English alike wouldn't have tolerated Valois rule, and it would inevitably have been short-lived and would probably have imploded in civil wars even worse than the ones both nations got anyway.
A lot of this discussion takes for granted that the Hapsburgs would stand on the sidelines waiting for France to secure an empire of it's own. This would have been very alarming to them.
@@Sprayber Yup. They spent most of the following 200 years fighting eachother either directly or via proxy anyway. It's always about power, and if one power stretches itself too thin, another will try to move in on its weakness.
Scotland was the 16th century’s equivalent of Poland of the mid 1900’s. That with the later Stewarts dynastic ambitions meant that Scotland as an independent nation was doomed. The religious question was tipped by the crown, aristocracy (the powerful) taking over the lands previously owned by the church. Looking from today’s perspective we would be better off being under French influence. Better food, better welfare and more stylish. 😄😄
Can you see if this is true? Mary and David are fourth cousins 13 times removed
Mary (Stewart) Queen of Scots (1542-1587) and David McKinney are both descendants of Joan (Beaufort) Queen Dowager of Scots (-abt.1445).
1. Mary is the daughter of James (Stewart) King of Scots (1512-1542) [confident]
2. James is the son of James (Stewart) King of Scots (1473-1513) [confident]
3. James is the son of James (Stewart) King of Scots (1451-1488) [confident]
4. James is the son of James (Stewart) King of Scots (1430-aft.1460) [confident]
5. James is the son of Joan (Beaufort) Queen Dowager of Scots (-abt.1445) [confident]
This makes Joan the third great grandmother of Mary.
1. David is the son of Theodore Phillip McKinney (1928-1990) [confident]
2. Theodore is the son of Harold Arthur McKinney (1905-1998) [unknown confidence]
3. Harold is the son of Mary Katherine (Moon) McKinney (1861-1933) [unknown confidence]
4. Mary is the daughter of Jacob B Moon (abt.1834-1863) [unknown confidence]
5. Jacob is the son of Lydia (Beals) Moon (1810-1882) [confident]
6. Lydia is the daughter of Mary Ann Beals (1787-1875) [unknown confidence]
7. Mary is the daughter of Susannah (Jackson) Beals (abt.1751-1840) [confident]
8. Susannah is the daughter of Samuel Jackson Sr (abt.1725-1806) [confident]
9. Samuel is the son of Elizabeth (Vance) Jackson (1680-bef.1750) [unknown confidence]
10. Elizabeth is the daughter of John Vance M.D. (abt.1640-1710) [confident]
11. John is the son of William Lancelot Francis Vance (1630-1688) [confident]
12. William is the son of John (Vans) Vance (1596-1662) [confident]
13. John is the son of Margaret (MacDowall Of Garthland) Vans (abt.1579-abt.1659) [confident]
14. Margaret is the daughter of Margaret (Stewart) Stewart Lady Ochitree (abt.1539-1627) [confident]
15. Margaret is the daughter of Janet (Stewart) Stewart Lady Ruthven (1505-1566) [confident]
16. Janet is the daughter of John (Stewart) Stewart Second Earl of Atholl (aft.1475-abt.1521) [confident]
17. John is the son of John (Stewart) Stewart of Balveny First Earl of Atholl (abt.1440-1512) [confident]
18. John is the son of Joan (Beaufort) Queen Dowager of Scots (-abt.1445) [confident]
This makes Joan the 16th great grandmother of David.
I do like a what if . .. mm if culloden had been won.....
That one's coming
You never really appreciate just how much help the Closed Captions can be (even with all the horrible mistakes that they include) until you have to try to understand a trio of Jocks all talking with their heads in kerosene tins! 🤔😱😈
You weren't listening properly. One of those "Jocks" (the woman) has a very English accent.
Try not to expose your cultural insensitivity next time, hmm?
James v best King not sure about that one.
I did have a wee bit of debate myself
Think James the fourth was a good 'un, but his life and potential were cut short due to his decisions before and at Flodden...?
What IF Christianity never came to the U.K and Ireland?
To be fair neither existed when Christianity came. I know, pedantic
Maybe then she'd still be alive . . . so to speak.
She'd be nearly 500 years old
Just imagine how the Scottish diet might have changed for the better as part of France. Deep fried snails any one?
Hah hah Bruce . My people left Scotland for America in the 1700s. I see it’s still cold and bleek there.Can’t you get someone important and good looking on your show? Someone like Sheena Easton !
One more Sheena Easton comment and your blocked mate
@@ScotlandHistoryToursOK Bruce, Sheena is kind of a psychopath it seems . Just like Mary Tudor . How about those Bay City Rollers though? My people unsubscribed from Scotland 300 years ago. Adios Amigo
Good video but the title isnt quite right. It should be "What if Mary Queen of Scots HAD Never Returned From France?". Can you see the extra word in the question ? You need that "had" there to make it correct.
That grammatical problem is very common in RUclips titles. Perhaps it's just keeping the titles short, or the language might be changing.
It's a Scottish thing! Perfectly acceptable to the Scots ear!🤣
@@eleanorbarrie3527 Thats interesting. Maybe the Scots that emigrated at the time of the war of independance took this variant with them ?
@@youtischia nae idea!
He is hard to understand.
Sorry, you're not making sense. Can you explain that more clearly?
What if stories are always fruitless. What if she had a brain
Curious to see a "What If Scotland" didn't invest in the Panama colony and bankrupt itself
I'll treat this comment with the contempt it deserves
I wasn’t asking in a negative way, was actually curious. It’s been a fun ride, I’ll unsubscribe now 😢
@@bassguitar2709 Once was enough for the joke. After that it just got more and more annoying. Hey I've overplayed a poor gag myself in my time, so maybe not one to talk. I doubt that Sheena Easton is held in the same regard as you hold her in the country she left. I don't imagine folk dislike her. I just can't imagine folk care
@@bassguitar2709 😂😂I just realised that I answered the wrong comment here. Forget the Sheena Easton stuff. Yep, the Panama. Yep the Panama comment definitely seemed negative and intended to cause offence.
I still don’t understand the heat? You’ve covered every other horrible tragedy in Scottish history, why is this suddenly the offensive one? I imagined an in depth interview with historical economists to discuss the reasons for the investiture, after effects of its failure, ecological experts to contrast the tropical jungle vs the Scottish farms, epidemiologists to discuss the impacts of malaria on the colonists. Living near the Lost Colony in the US I find learning from failed projects to be invaluable. I hope you can learn from this failed communication with one of your now ex-subscribers. On the positive side I’ve just ordered 6 books about the Darien colony. If I wanted to offend you I wouldn’t ask a curious question about Scottish history, I’d be much more direct.
Realizing that Scotland. Wales, and England are seperate, autonomous nations, (With Northern Ireland semi-autonomus.), under the banner of Great Britain. The Americans often fail to see, as they are not taught, that and fail to see the nuances thus incurred. If I were yo declare,"I am Californian", that holds little weight compared to you saying, "I am Scotch".
Thus the real distinction between England, Britain and Great Britain.
In the US, a state is a part of and not seperate from the USA as a whole.
A devergence from your talk, but a detour into the resulting political structures due to historic deviations.
We'd never say I am Scotch
England often fails to make that distinction too....☹
Bruce, great historian but I watched you the other night, scared of paddle boarding, you big Jessie 😂😂
🤣Actually I've been paddle boarding
@@ScotlandHistoryTours Bruce, I watched the program. You're a big Jessie!! only joking big chap.