Great content! Another thing to try when cutting the dovetail slots is to hog out a majority of the material whith a straight but and finish it with the dovetail bit. It makes cutting that final dovetail slot a piece of cake. Looking forward to the next installatiion.
I'm about to embark on some fixture creation for the MicroJig dovetail clamps, and have been thinking about the same thing, "Do I start with a 1/4 in spiral bit to clear out a majority of the material first?"
Another great installment Marc! This is fantastic series! At first I was wondering why you didn’t use the festool track and router attachment but then you said the template made sure it was perfectly lined up each time, which makes total sense! I love watching your content as you go into great detail and explain everything and the camera actually gets in there so you can see it. I am throughly enjoying watching these. It reminds me of watching Norm Abram’s growing up and how he explained why he did things a certain way.
One of the tricks I've learned with sliding dovetails is to use an epoxy glue instead of PVA. Epoxy won't make the parts expand since it has no water, and it is a great lubricant in the joint. Still don't need to glue the entire length in either case, just the way the video shows. Use a 45 minute epoxy to give yourself a little more time for assembly - takes the stress level down a couple of notches too.
Fantastic! A great tutorial. Thank you! A caution about the second fence for the router. They must be parallel. They must not be too tight, not too loose. There is a good chance that by using the flat side of the router base you risk getting the router turned slightly causing the base to get jammed between the two fences. Router kickback? I do see the value in the second fence, but one must not think it's an opportunity to be the tiniest bit sloppy.
15:47 I do a lot of cabinet doors and panels. I would highly suggest when you are standing a piece up on it's end like that. Just throw on some sacrificial fences that are 8-12" tall. It will make the piece so much more stable and make it more comfortable to push thru.
I realize that adding the stiffener to prevent sagging was an afterthought in this build. For anyone that plans on making this or a similar project in the future, add the stiffener during the initial whole frame glue up, and add dowels, tenons or dominoes into the ends of the stiffener. That will provide extra support and help with alignment of the stiffener.
Marc, did you consider making tapered sliding dovetails instead of straight ones? If I were making this, I would evaluate them because of the length would make sliding the parts together very difficult with glue-in the grooves and wood swelling from the glue. Another way to think about it, is to leave the panels unassembled and just dovetail the front stile. Make the grooves with a dado except for the portion where the front stile fits, which would have a dovetail groove. Then assemble the panels in the case work. This approach would be like some chest of drawers are made except in this case the chest is on its side. Love the series.
After all that discussion about having the dovetail perpendicular to the front you ended up cutting it parallel to the end. No need to cut a big board referenced to the edge, just cut one that is equal to the width of the router edge to bit center (and save it for next time and all times after that) and use it it align a fence parallel to your drawn line. Although admittedly using the big reference board is much less error prone at positioning the subsequent dovetails -- so long as your top and bottom are built very square.
Parallel to the end IS perpendicular to the front as per previous steps taken in the project and as you said, the larger board gives perfect placement with minimal thought or potential for error.
I would definitely advise in buying a Rockler micro fence adjuster. They are super cheap and worth the money. What I used to do before I had one was to use a tape measure and measure from the fence to a certain part of the aluminum track in the front on the each side. That way you can square your fence a lot easier and then just barely loosen one side and using your tape your measure just put a little pressure against the fence to slide it or from the backside towards the tape measure depending what direction you need to move it. I've never had issues making minor adjustments.
Is blowout not a concern? I feel like anytime I try routing a groove of any kind, and definitely when making a cut like those male dovetails, I'd be splintering all over the place. Even with a decent router bit. Maybe that's the difference between mid and top tier cutters? Or the blowout at the end of the cut just doesn't matter in the design... Any thoughts?
Only applying glue to the leading and trailing ends of the sliding dovetail during glueup!?!? Well, if you’re going to cheat and do it the easier and smarter way then FINE! 😊 This coming from a guy that had to apologize to his wife for the primal screaming/cursing coming from the garage when I applied glue to the entire length of my ~20” upper/lower sliding dovetails on a recent cabinet glueup. Sigh … if only I’d seen your wise advice first. I don’t often comment Marc, but just wanted to send a huge thank you to all of the great content you create and share with the woodworking community, as well as your great sense of humor.
Sliding dovetails are a perfect joint for this application. They connect the two parts firmly and the joinery works to counteract gravity and that's all without glue. Add glue and it's a rock solid choice. Curious why it doesn't make sense to you. FYI, I didn't make this up. This is a classic way to create case dividers.
I love your instructional style. Very informative and casual. Why the dove tail rather than domino or even biscuit? Just showing a different type of joint? Did the clamps holding the frames put undue pressure on the dovetail groove making it harder to slide in?
The dovetail is just a better joint. Not to say that a domino or biscuit wouldn't suffice, but those don't have any mechanical advantage. The dovetail, even without glue, would hold the case together. So it's just extra for the sake of extra. :)
You said to use “the biggest square you’ve got” for layout lines at 4:08 , but from the wall of tools over your shoulder I see that you are indeed not using “the biggest square you’ve got.”
May have missed it in the video, but particular advantage to using the sliding dovetail for the partition instead of a regular dado or even just dominos?
The dovetail is just a better joint. Not to say that a domino or biscuit wouldn't suffice, but those don't have any mechanical advantage. The dovetail, even without glue, would hold the case together. So it's just extra for the sake of extra. :)
It's looking very good indeed. Nice seeing the 'let's think things through' approach. As a mechanical engineer, my first instinct is that I would not expect the extra stiffening on the back to add much over just adding the back panel, just as others have mentioned. But there are a lot of assumptions in there: nice and complete glue up of the panel, no buckling in the back panel and more or less consistent material properties of the wood. Especially that last one may well the killer in a thin(ish) solid wooden panel. If there is a unnoticed crack or split anywhere in the panel, it could crack further under load and then you'd be up a certain creek without a paddle. And although many things sag with age, function less well and become less appealing, let's make sure the furniture we build is not one of those things. 😅
Curious why you used the flat part of the router base against the fence. I had always thought the round section was better in case you twist it at all. 🤔🧐
I'm really surprised at how many people hold this opinion. Curious where you learned this? Because router bits are often not in the dead center of the base, rotation is bad for the quality of the cut. So by putting a flat edge against another flat edge, you have a perfect reference surface, no rotation, and no wandering line. If the bit does happen to be dead center of the base, at the very least it comes down to personal preference. But there's no scenario I can think of where the round edge of the base is "better."
@@woodwhisperer Marc, also commented below in agreement with your rationale. I suspect that the 'round side' technique would be best for a rabbet/dado cut that's wider than the bit used, and done with two sides fenced. Your single pass dovetail cut... yeah, use the flat side and focus/pray. Thoughts?
I haven't actually tried sliding dovetails yet, but I remember seeing in another video they said to make sure you always use the rounded side of the router, because the center-point is constant on a circle. If you're using the flat side, that makes you susceptible to messing it up if you rotate it a little on that flat face. I'm loving this series by the way. Cheers!
Yeah you guys must have all seen the same video. I've gotten three comments about that and I don't understand the logic. Flat against flat is less error-prone simply because you so much less likely to rotate. Furthermore, if your bit isn't truly centered, and often it isn't, rotating will create dips and valleys in your groove so I do whatever I can to prevent rotation.
@@woodwhisperer But using the flat side as a reference if you do rotate _at_all_ the bit moves off line. If you use the round side then if you rotate slightly the bit is still the same distance away from the fence. One less thing to have to worry about for a beginner maybe? (You obviously know what you're doing 😂)
That's not necessarily true. Most router bits are not dead center in the baseplate. So if you rotate, you can still end up with a wandering line. Much better to keep the straight edge against another straight edge, which is much less prone to movement in the first place and will always be a perfect fixed distance from the guide.
Marc, why not center the router bit in the plate and use the rounded side of the router? then you don't have to worry about twisting the router and pulling it away from the guide when cutting the dovetail right?
Not sure what you mean. Using the rounded side of the router base does nothing to prevent you from pulling away from the guide. It only reduces your contact to a single point which encourages rotation. And if your bit isn't 100% dead center, which it often isn't, that rotation can cause the bit to wander slightly. I find it much better to keep a flat edge against a flat edge, as you can easily see if the base wanders and there's no chance of the base rotating during the cut. And if the bit happens to not be centered perfectly, it will have zero impact on the end result.
@@woodwhisperer Answered my question, thanks, and that makes sense. I'd only add the thought of plowing with a straight bit first to make the dovetail pass easier to hold that beast of a router against your guide... because I've found that something WILL go wrong using a router, and that something is always very difficult to fix.
How so? The flat side is flat and straight and keeps the bit at a fixed distance. The round side, if the bit isn't 100% dead center, could have some variability should the base be rotated slightly during the operation. If the bit is centered, then the flat and the round edges should produce the exact same result.
Take a scrap board and use your router as you normally would. Midway through purposely, rotate the router. Then, do the same with the rounded edge along the straight edge. You should see that it doesn't mater if the router rotates using the rounded edge, but if you accidentally twist the router useing the flat side, you will have an ugly cut. Of course, if you're perfect all the time, then this doesn't matter. Love your content.
@@woodwhisperer Seems like these folks have not used very many routers. I’ve never used a router where the bit was perfectly centered. Porter cable, Bosch, Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt not a one of them was perfect!
You're missing the point about the bit being centered. If the bit isn't centered, which it likely isn't, rotating the base will result in a wavy line. Might only be slight but it will happen. And because you're using the round edge, rotation is very likely. Whereas with a straight edge, it's much easier to push the router with good positive registration, making it far less likely that you'll drift. And even if the bit isn't centered, it doesn't matter at all when using the straight side of the router. If you centered your base plate and you're more comfortable using the round side, then you're good to go. But short of that, the flat side is going to be more reliable and more accurate.
Get IMMEDIATE access to a FREE Guild course! thewoodwhispererguild.com/product/dining-table-with-breadboard-ends/
Gluing strategy for the sliding dovetail partitions was smart. Really great long video. Thanks for the freebie!
Really liking this video series Marc. I have been woodworking for 40+ years and love watching other highly skilled woodworkers. Keep it up.
Great content! Another thing to try when cutting the dovetail slots is to hog out a majority of the material whith a straight but and finish it with the dovetail bit. It makes cutting that final dovetail slot a piece of cake. Looking forward to the next installatiion.
I'm about to embark on some fixture creation for the MicroJig dovetail clamps, and have been thinking about the same thing, "Do I start with a 1/4 in spiral bit to clear out a majority of the material first?"
Another great installment Marc! This is fantastic series! At first I was wondering why you didn’t use the festool track and router attachment but then you said the template made sure it was perfectly lined up each time, which makes total sense! I love watching your content as you go into great detail and explain everything and the camera actually gets in there so you can see it. I am throughly enjoying watching these. It reminds me of watching Norm Abram’s growing up and how he explained why he did things a certain way.
Couldn’t figure out why you made such a wide spacer for cutting the dovetail grooves. Until …. Very nice!
7:51 I find I’m most confident with a single fence setup when my fly is down. It appears you feel the same👖
Another great part of the series. Learned a lot. Looking forward to the next
I'm currently half way through the Mom's Table project. Fantastic content! My mom got a leg for Christmas and will get the rest for her Birthday.
One of the tricks I've learned with sliding dovetails is to use an epoxy glue instead of PVA. Epoxy won't make the parts expand since it has no water, and it is a great lubricant in the joint. Still don't need to glue the entire length in either case, just the way the video shows. Use a 45 minute epoxy to give yourself a little more time for assembly - takes the stress level down a couple of notches too.
Inspiring me to try new things. Thanks bud 🙏🏼👍🏽
Fantastic! A great tutorial. Thank you!
A caution about the second fence for the router. They must be parallel. They must not be too tight, not too loose. There is a good chance that by using the flat side of the router base you risk getting the router turned slightly causing the base to get jammed between the two fences. Router kickback? I do see the value in the second fence, but one must not think it's an opportunity to be the tiniest bit sloppy.
'Fingers in mesh'
I love the subtitles...lol
15:47 I do a lot of cabinet doors and panels. I would highly suggest when you are standing a piece up on it's end like that. Just throw on some sacrificial fences that are 8-12" tall. It will make the piece so much more stable and make it more comfortable to push thru.
THIS SERIES IS AWESOME!!!!!
Marc Can you please tell us about the zero clearance fence you have on the Kapex.
Thank you!
I realize that adding the stiffener to prevent sagging was an afterthought in this build. For anyone that plans on making this or a similar project in the future, add the stiffener during the initial whole frame glue up, and add dowels, tenons or dominoes into the ends of the stiffener. That will provide extra support and help with alignment of the stiffener.
Marc, did you consider making tapered sliding dovetails instead of straight ones? If I were making this, I would evaluate them because of the length would make sliding the parts together very difficult with glue-in the grooves and wood swelling from the glue. Another way to think about it, is to leave the panels unassembled and just dovetail the front stile. Make the grooves with a dado except for the portion where the front stile fits, which would have a dovetail groove. Then assemble the panels in the case work. This approach would be like some chest of drawers are made except in this case the chest is on its side. Love the series.
That was discussed at about 16:00.
Your plans that are available are they only in imperial or do you also provide metric
For sliding dovetail joints why not use hide glue for its longer open time and "lube" properties?
As an alternative to the back cleat, could you have installed a pair of center legs to shorten the span and carry the load? Pros and cons?
Pro - great support. Con - Ugly. :)
After all that discussion about having the dovetail perpendicular to the front you ended up cutting it parallel to the end. No need to cut a big board referenced to the edge, just cut one that is equal to the width of the router edge to bit center (and save it for next time and all times after that) and use it it align a fence parallel to your drawn line. Although admittedly using the big reference board is much less error prone at positioning the subsequent dovetails -- so long as your top and bottom are built very square.
Parallel to the end IS perpendicular to the front as per previous steps taken in the project and as you said, the larger board gives perfect placement with minimal thought or potential for error.
Excellent tutorial. Thank you for sharing.🙂🙂
Making that cut with the router, could you have used the round side of the router base instead so theres no risk of drifting?
I would definitely advise in buying a Rockler micro fence adjuster. They are super cheap and worth the money. What I used to do before I had one was to use a tape measure and measure from the fence to a certain part of the aluminum track in the front on the each side. That way you can square your fence a lot easier and then just barely loosen one side and using your tape your measure just put a little pressure against the fence to slide it or from the backside towards the tape measure depending what direction you need to move it. I've never had issues making minor adjustments.
This is going to be amazing.
Fantastic!
👍👍👍👍👍
Is blowout not a concern? I feel like anytime I try routing a groove of any kind, and definitely when making a cut like those male dovetails, I'd be splintering all over the place. Even with a decent router bit. Maybe that's the difference between mid and top tier cutters? Or the blowout at the end of the cut just doesn't matter in the design... Any thoughts?
Wife tells me the same thing… 36:17
Hey man your fly is down!
Pork, the other white meat.
Only applying glue to the leading and trailing ends of the sliding dovetail during glueup!?!? Well, if you’re going to cheat and do it the easier and smarter way then FINE! 😊
This coming from a guy that had to apologize to his wife for the primal screaming/cursing coming from the garage when I applied glue to the entire length of my ~20” upper/lower sliding dovetails on a recent cabinet glueup. Sigh … if only I’d seen your wise advice first.
I don’t often comment Marc, but just wanted to send a huge thank you to all of the great content you create and share with the woodworking community, as well as your great sense of humor.
Oof that sounds like a nightmare glueup! Sorry that happened. Thanks for the support Terry.
NIce video. But why would you use sliding dovetails for this application? It doesn't make sense to me.
Sliding dovetails are a perfect joint for this application. They connect the two parts firmly and the joinery works to counteract gravity and that's all without glue. Add glue and it's a rock solid choice. Curious why it doesn't make sense to you. FYI, I didn't make this up. This is a classic way to create case dividers.
I love your instructional style. Very informative and casual. Why the dove tail rather than domino or even biscuit? Just showing a different type of joint? Did the clamps holding the frames put undue pressure on the dovetail groove making it harder to slide in?
The dovetail is just a better joint. Not to say that a domino or biscuit wouldn't suffice, but those don't have any mechanical advantage. The dovetail, even without glue, would hold the case together. So it's just extra for the sake of extra. :)
You said to use “the biggest square you’ve got” for layout lines at 4:08 , but from the wall of tools over your shoulder I see that you are indeed not using “the biggest square you’ve got.”
I said the biggest square YOU'VE got. I didn't say the biggest square I've got. ;)
May have missed it in the video, but particular advantage to using the sliding dovetail for the partition instead of a regular dado or even just dominos?
The dovetail is just a better joint. Not to say that a domino or biscuit wouldn't suffice, but those don't have any mechanical advantage. The dovetail, even without glue, would hold the case together. So it's just extra for the sake of extra. :)
Tapered sliding dovetail has been my favourite but ouf .. a challenge by hand.
It's looking very good indeed. Nice seeing the 'let's think things through' approach.
As a mechanical engineer, my first instinct is that I would not expect the extra stiffening on the back to add much over just adding the back panel, just as others have mentioned.
But there are a lot of assumptions in there: nice and complete glue up of the panel, no buckling in the back panel and more or less consistent material properties of the wood.
Especially that last one may well the killer in a thin(ish) solid wooden panel. If there is a unnoticed crack or split anywhere in the panel, it could crack further under load and then you'd be up a certain creek without a paddle.
And although many things sag with age, function less well and become less appealing, let's make sure the furniture we build is not one of those things. 😅
Every time you say clearance I think of Clarence, PS Barn door open
I think this will be a beautiful addition to my home. When can you deliver it?
Curious why you used the flat part of the router base against the fence. I had always thought the round section was better in case you twist it at all. 🤔🧐
I'm really surprised at how many people hold this opinion. Curious where you learned this? Because router bits are often not in the dead center of the base, rotation is bad for the quality of the cut. So by putting a flat edge against another flat edge, you have a perfect reference surface, no rotation, and no wandering line. If the bit does happen to be dead center of the base, at the very least it comes down to personal preference. But there's no scenario I can think of where the round edge of the base is "better."
@@woodwhisperer Just something I picked up watching Stumpy Nubs and Katz-Moses. 🤷♂️
I decided to put a video together explaining this a bit more. ruclips.net/user/shortsVOup7Jm0bE4
@@woodwhisperer Marc, also commented below in agreement with your rationale. I suspect that the 'round side' technique would be best for a rabbet/dado cut that's wider than the bit used, and done with two sides fenced. Your single pass dovetail cut... yeah, use the flat side and focus/pray. Thoughts?
THANKS FOR THE VIDEO
thank you
I haven't actually tried sliding dovetails yet, but I remember seeing in another video they said to make sure you always use the rounded side of the router, because the center-point is constant on a circle. If you're using the flat side, that makes you susceptible to messing it up if you rotate it a little on that flat face. I'm loving this series by the way. Cheers!
Yeah you guys must have all seen the same video. I've gotten three comments about that and I don't understand the logic. Flat against flat is less error-prone simply because you so much less likely to rotate. Furthermore, if your bit isn't truly centered, and often it isn't, rotating will create dips and valleys in your groove so I do whatever I can to prevent rotation.
@@woodwhisperer But using the flat side as a reference if you do rotate _at_all_ the bit moves off line. If you use the round side then if you rotate slightly the bit is still the same distance away from the fence. One less thing to have to worry about for a beginner maybe? (You obviously know what you're doing 😂)
That's not necessarily true. Most router bits are not dead center in the baseplate. So if you rotate, you can still end up with a wandering line. Much better to keep the straight edge against another straight edge, which is much less prone to movement in the first place and will always be a perfect fixed distance from the guide.
Marc, why not center the router bit in the plate and use the rounded side of the router? then you don't have to worry about twisting the router and pulling it away from the guide when cutting the dovetail right?
I had the same thought. Always thought it best to avoid the flat spot.
Not sure what you mean. Using the rounded side of the router base does nothing to prevent you from pulling away from the guide. It only reduces your contact to a single point which encourages rotation. And if your bit isn't 100% dead center, which it often isn't, that rotation can cause the bit to wander slightly. I find it much better to keep a flat edge against a flat edge, as you can easily see if the base wanders and there's no chance of the base rotating during the cut. And if the bit happens to not be centered perfectly, it will have zero impact on the end result.
An even better way to go is get that router set up to use on a guide track and then there’s no issue of pulling away. 👍🏻
Made a video that goes into a little more detail. ruclips.net/user/shortsVOup7Jm0bE4
@@woodwhisperer Answered my question, thanks, and that makes sense. I'd only add the thought of plowing with a straight bit first to make the dovetail pass easier to hold that beast of a router against your guide... because I've found that something WILL go wrong using a router, and that something is always very difficult to fix.
I'm surprised you used the flat side of your router base. Have you tried useing the round edge? That gives you a more consistent cut line.
How so? The flat side is flat and straight and keeps the bit at a fixed distance. The round side, if the bit isn't 100% dead center, could have some variability should the base be rotated slightly during the operation. If the bit is centered, then the flat and the round edges should produce the exact same result.
Take a scrap board and use your router as you normally would. Midway through purposely, rotate the router. Then, do the same with the rounded edge along the straight edge. You should see that it doesn't mater if the router rotates using the rounded edge, but if you accidentally twist the router useing the flat side, you will have an ugly cut. Of course, if you're perfect all the time, then this doesn't matter. Love your content.
@@woodwhisperer Seems like these folks have not used very many routers. I’ve never used a router where the bit was perfectly centered. Porter cable, Bosch, Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt not a one of them was perfect!
You're missing the point about the bit being centered. If the bit isn't centered, which it likely isn't, rotating the base will result in a wavy line. Might only be slight but it will happen. And because you're using the round edge, rotation is very likely. Whereas with a straight edge, it's much easier to push the router with good positive registration, making it far less likely that you'll drift. And even if the bit isn't centered, it doesn't matter at all when using the straight side of the router. If you centered your base plate and you're more comfortable using the round side, then you're good to go. But short of that, the flat side is going to be more reliable and more accurate.