This is 100% on the MLB, the rule "clear and convincing" depends on whichever mystery ump is in the booth. Even in hockey I'm right about 75% of the time on close calls, in the MLB, it feels like some super impossible to tell ones are overturned, and ones that seem clearly wrong "stand". Idk there needs to be an overhall and greater consistency imo.
Well said. I watched it once, thought I knew what I saw, and watched it a second time and saw something different. Neither of those were indicating a clear and convincing miss. Call stands; play ball.
@@zachansen8293 What it does strongly argue though is there's not enough resolution to get the correct call. We're working with Hubble when we need JWST clarity.
@@zachansen8293 Sure, buts that's not how baseball works and this isn't a courtroom. No indisputable evidence to overturn the call, call stands. Lots of dispute, no clear evidence means the call is correct.
If I was an Astros fan, I would be frustrated at the call. However, after watching it at .25 speed I get why New York went with call stands. There is no clear and convincing evidence that shows the runner beat the ball. I would also add there is no clear and convincing evidence that shows the ball beat the runner. To that standard revert to the call on the field and have it stand.
Props to the manager for successfully getting his player out of there, to avoid ejection. Shame that the player decided that when one ejection door closes, an ejection window opens....
Great show and please keep it up! A loyal subscriber. PS- what is the name of the lovely piano music that closes the show. I'd like to add that to my music collection. Many Thanks!
For for once, on a controversial play, I actually think replay might have gotten this one right. At first, I thought it was an easy safe call on replay, but seeing it for a second time, I think I'm going for out. I don't think Dubon's foot touches the bag until he plants it on the bag, and by the time that happens, the ball has already entered the glove. I watched the base, and it doesn't begin to deform until the 1B already has the ball. Tough either way, but I feel like this is the epitome of a "stands," not even one of those "eh its close but the call on the field is probably wrong, but its close enough, just say stands" to save face.
Next time we get a call against Houston could you throw some "In the Arms of an Angel" from that old ASPCA song in for the Astros fans? That'd make me real happy as a hater of cheaters.
There are (at least) 4 possible times a catch is "made" [let's assume we allow a catch is "made" if it qualifies as started and does not fail later]. It could be:"passes the plane created by the cone of the glove
except that its not, the ball is considered caught when it enters the plane of the glove. IK its confusing but based on that angle at 0:42, the ball entered the glove ON THE SAME FRAME as the batter runner touching first.
@@tw1nn319 on the other angle you can see that he is touching the base while the ball can still be seen. actually you can see it on both angles lol. Unless you think his foot touched the bag only when it was fully pressed into it.
May I ask, what angles do you think are missing? MLB takes virtually every camera, the Rangers’ network likely only had three of their own cameras. Houston probably has 7 to 10 of their own.
@@babababad who pays for it? You do know that 4 hours prior to every game each camera used for replay shoots a strobe light so MLB’s techs can adjust video delays between each camera used. How many gloves? How many bases? How many additional transmission paths and Evertz DreamCatchers needed?
@@mikecumbo7531 idk I thought it was a funny idea. The actually viable solution would be to improve the quality of the base mics and implement a snicko-style system (already invented, but not trialed in actual play yet).
@@babababad base mics aren’t used except for national games, Fox/Apple TV, etc due to added costs and crewing expenses. The one “problem” with cricket type technology is that most cricket is national broadcasters vs MLB which is mostly local/regional shows.
Biggest baseball myth - The tie goes to the runner. NO! The runner MUST BEAT THE BALL. In other words the rule book clearly puts the onus on the runner not the fielder. So tie goes to the fielder. Best way was explained to me. The field belongs to the fielding team. The offense must win each base from the fielders. As for ties, think title fights in boxing! The challenger must BEAT the champ. Tie? The champ retains the title. Runners (challenger) must beat the fielder (champ) or the fielders retain the title / base
Remmeber people, a ball is caught when it enters the glove opening. 0:42 shows this happening on the SAME FRAME as the batter runner touching first. That's why this is a call stands.
Entering the glove opening is not the MLB replay standard (nor NCAA). The standard on replay of the timing of a made catch is when it contacts the back of the glove (and is caught/retained). In any case, yes, same frame: call stands.
@@teebob21 if it’s when it contacts the back of the glove why isn’t this call overturned? The runner is clearly there before it hits the back of the glove
@@teebob21 I mean, we all have the same angles. I see the runner hitting the bag a frame or 2 before the ball hits the glove at 0:42 but it enters the glove at the same frame
All the references I see say that a catch is when the fielder has secure possession of the ball. Is the rule different at first base? From the rules: "A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it..." How can the 1B be said to have secure possession/be firmly holding the ball here?
Replay guidance is that possession starts when the ball hits the back of the mitt and is subsequently retained by the fielder. Did the fielder catch the throw? Undoubtedly, yes. Did the throw beat the runner? On video review, undeterminable either way. This, the call stands.
Runners that are tagging up can leave their base as soon as the ball has touched the outfielder‘s glove, they don’t have to wait until the catch is completed. So it’s the same here, the runner has to reach the base before the catch starts, not before it is finished.
@@andrecanis4894 Can you cite the rule for that? What I see is this rule: "He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder." Which is not at all what you said?
@@edsimnett it’s a comment on OBR 5.09: “Catch Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. *Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.*”
@@closethockeyfan5284 crazy to me….it looked like the ball hadn’t even reached the glove by the time his foot was firmly on the bag I’ll slow it down and watch again
@@MicahPettit-y5h ball is considered caught when it crosses the plane of the glove, the ball is caught and the batter touch the bag on the same frame, call stands
“For whatever reason ejected Dubon…” These broadcasters do not know the rules. If you argue one bit after video review, by rule, that is grounds for ejection.
"tie goes to the runner" is actually a myth. According to the rules, the runner must beat the ball to the bag. A tie is not beating the ball, therefore he is out in the case of a tie.
'Tie goes to the runner" isn't the rule. On a force play, the runner must be at the ball to the base or a fielder in possession of that ball. At lower levels without replay, we half-joke that "tie goes to the umpire".
Remember it's when the ball enters the glove opening, not hits the back of the glove. I slowed it down to 0.25x speed and went frame by frame and it's pretty much an exact tie from what I can see, I understand why they went with call stands.
@@--dh-- Agree to disagree I guess, I still can't see a clear frame showing both the ball and the foot. The view at 0:42 shows a good angle of the ball but we can't really tell when the foot hits the bag. The view at 0:45 shows a good view of the foot but we can't really see the ball.
This is 100% on the MLB, the rule "clear and convincing" depends on whichever mystery ump is in the booth. Even in hockey I'm right about 75% of the time on close calls, in the MLB, it feels like some super impossible to tell ones are overturned, and ones that seem clearly wrong "stand". Idk there needs to be an overhall and greater consistency imo.
The amount of differing opinions on whether he was safe or not is exactly why the call stands.
Well said. I watched it once, thought I knew what I saw, and watched it a second time and saw something different.
Neither of those were indicating a clear and convincing miss. Call stands; play ball.
That's argument to moderation. It doesn't matter how many people think something vs something else - it only matters what is correct.
@@zachansen8293 What it does strongly argue though is there's not enough resolution to get the correct call. We're working with Hubble when we need JWST clarity.
@@zachansen8293 Sure, buts that's not how baseball works and this isn't a courtroom. No indisputable evidence to overturn the call, call stands. Lots of dispute, no clear evidence means the call is correct.
@@dougr188no it means the call is not obviously correct. Call confirmed would be absolutely correct
If I was an Astros fan, I would be frustrated at the call. However, after watching it at .25 speed I get why New York went with call stands. There is no clear and convincing evidence that shows the runner beat the ball. I would also add there is no clear and convincing evidence that shows the ball beat the runner. To that standard revert to the call on the field and have it stand.
Dubon looked like he was disparate for a hit. Checking, he has batted .100 in his last seven games.
Props to the manager for successfully getting his player out of there, to avoid ejection. Shame that the player decided that when one ejection door closes, an ejection window opens....
That piano at the end is brilliant.
Great show and please keep it up! A loyal subscriber. PS- what is the name of the lovely piano music that closes the show. I'd like to add that to my music collection. Many Thanks!
It's Gymnopédie No. 1 by Erik Satie.
@@JacobMartellaWebDeveloper Darn, I thought it was Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody. I sit corrected.
There's an upbeat, jazzy rendition of it by Cyrus Chestnut (album name: Kaleidoscope) that's pretty good too.
For for once, on a controversial play, I actually think replay might have gotten this one right. At first, I thought it was an easy safe call on replay, but seeing it for a second time, I think I'm going for out. I don't think Dubon's foot touches the bag until he plants it on the bag, and by the time that happens, the ball has already entered the glove. I watched the base, and it doesn't begin to deform until the 1B already has the ball. Tough either way, but I feel like this is the epitome of a "stands," not even one of those "eh its close but the call on the field is probably wrong, but its close enough, just say stands" to save face.
I didn’t know Carlos Torres was a crew chief!
Next time we get a call against Houston could you throw some "In the Arms of an Angel" from that old ASPCA song in for the Astros fans? That'd make me real happy as a hater of cheaters.
There are (at least) 4 possible times a catch is "made" [let's assume we allow a catch is "made" if it qualifies as started and does not fail later]. It could be:"passes the plane created by the cone of the glove
0:42 seems pretty clear and convincing
except that its not, the ball is considered caught when it enters the plane of the glove. IK its confusing but based on that angle at 0:42, the ball entered the glove ON THE SAME FRAME as the batter runner touching first.
@@tw1nn319 on the other angle you can see that he is touching the base while the ball can still be seen. actually you can see it on both angles lol. Unless you think his foot touched the bag only when it was fully pressed into it.
I agree - if you're saying he's safe. His foot is on the bag while the ball is just entering the glove.
The manager tried to keep his player from being ejected.
Could this be another case of replay possibly not having all the angles?
May I ask, what angles do you think are missing? MLB takes virtually every camera, the Rangers’ network likely only had three of their own cameras. Houston probably has 7 to 10 of their own.
@@mikecumbo7531 cameras mounted on the base and inside the glove would help immensely
@@babababad who pays for it?
You do know that 4 hours prior to every game each camera used for replay shoots a strobe light so MLB’s techs can adjust video delays between each camera used. How many gloves? How many bases? How many additional transmission paths and Evertz DreamCatchers needed?
@@mikecumbo7531 idk I thought it was a funny idea. The actually viable solution would be to improve the quality of the base mics and implement a snicko-style system (already invented, but not trialed in actual play yet).
@@babababad base mics aren’t used except for national games, Fox/Apple TV, etc due to added costs and crewing expenses.
The one “problem” with cricket type technology is that most cricket is national broadcasters vs MLB which is mostly local/regional shows.
Tbf it looked like he was safe
If you don’t know why Ceja ejected him maybe you should pay attention, Mr. Announcer Man. Ignorance is bliss.
Ejected players also lose their snack bar privileges.
Not the snack bar!
@@randomDisinformation13 Actions have consequences!!!
Biggest baseball myth - The tie goes to the runner. NO! The runner MUST BEAT THE BALL. In other words the rule book clearly puts the onus on the runner not the fielder. So tie goes to the fielder. Best way was explained to me. The field belongs to the fielding team. The offense must win each base from the fielders. As for ties, think title fights in boxing! The challenger must BEAT the champ. Tie? The champ retains the title. Runners (challenger) must beat the fielder (champ) or the fielders retain the title / base
Remmeber people, a ball is caught when it enters the glove opening. 0:42 shows this happening on the SAME FRAME as the batter runner touching first. That's why this is a call stands.
Entering the glove opening is not the MLB replay standard (nor NCAA). The standard on replay of the timing of a made catch is when it contacts the back of the glove (and is caught/retained).
In any case, yes, same frame: call stands.
@@teebob21 if it’s when it contacts the back of the glove why isn’t this call overturned? The runner is clearly there before it hits the back of the glove
@@tw1nn319 Clearly? I don't have access to all the angles but I haven't seen one that CLEARLY shows the foot beating the ball. IMO call stands.
@@teebob21 I mean, we all have the same angles. I see the runner hitting the bag a frame or 2 before the ball hits the glove at 0:42 but it enters the glove at the same frame
@@tw1nn319 is your argument that MLB has never gotten a replay call wrong LMFAO
I'm pretty sure her/him called him/her a cork sucker
Cute!
Getting run for arguing a replay call, made by NY, with any of the field umps is about as dumb as it gets.
God I hate that Astros announcer
This would have been the fourth overturned call of the game… no way in hell would the MLB allow this
Houston Asstros are always crying about something. How embarrassing.
Broadcasters are more and more becoming subjective idiots.
All the references I see say that a catch is when the fielder has secure possession of the ball. Is the rule different at first base? From the rules: "A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it..." How can the 1B be said to have secure possession/be firmly holding the ball here?
Replay guidance is that possession starts when the ball hits the back of the mitt and is subsequently retained by the fielder.
Did the fielder catch the throw? Undoubtedly, yes.
Did the throw beat the runner? On video review, undeterminable either way. This, the call stands.
Runners that are tagging up can leave their base as soon as the ball has touched the outfielder‘s glove, they don’t have to wait until the catch is completed. So it’s the same here, the runner has to reach the base before the catch starts, not before it is finished.
@@andrecanis4894 Can you cite the rule for that? What I see is this rule: "He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is
legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder." Which is not at all what you said?
@@edsimnett it’s a comment on OBR 5.09:
“Catch Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. *Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.*”
@@andrecanis4894 That's a very obvious special case, probably designed to stop fielders' deliberately juggling the ball to fool the runner- no?
It was clear and convincing that he was safe….pretty shocking replay didn’t overturn
Not at all, I have stands on that either way
@@closethockeyfan5284 crazy to me….it looked like the ball hadn’t even reached the glove by the time his foot was firmly on the bag I’ll slow it down and watch again
@@MicahPettit-y5h I can definitely see a safe call, probably more than 50% safe, but I wouldn't say clear and convincing to my eyes
@@MicahPettit-y5h ball is considered caught when it crosses the plane of the glove, the ball is caught and the batter touch the bag on the same frame, call stands
Replays show his foot on the bag before the ball is in the glove. Look again. He was safe. Period. Bad call.
The runner knew he was safe. No need to argue if he knew he was out. We've all played ball, we know by the touch and sound.
For his career, Señor Dubon has appeared in a total of 62 MLB games.
huh? He's appeared in 79 games this year, 473 for his career.
Tie goes to the runner. Unless first base ump has gambling debts. Then it goes to Vegas.
A tie goes to call stands. Plus that's not the rule.
He was Safe to frist base. They can't see a Worth of damn.
Beautiful music at the end. The teams need a full time psychologist
Erik Satie - Trois Gymnopedies
“For whatever reason ejected Dubon…” These broadcasters do not know the rules. If you argue one bit after video review, by rule, that is grounds for ejection.
And since he couldn’t argue with U1 it was PU’s job to issue said ejection since he argued to him at that point.
They broadcast, I don't think they have high powered microphones to hear exactly what the Asstros are crying about.
Had the "clear and convincing" standard been met, would the "tie goes to the runner" rule apply on this particular play?
"tie goes to the runner" is actually a myth. According to the rules, the runner must beat the ball to the bag. A tie is not beating the ball, therefore he is out in the case of a tie.
'Tie goes to the runner" isn't the rule. On a force play, the runner must be at the ball to the base or a fielder in possession of that ball.
At lower levels without replay, we half-joke that "tie goes to the umpire".
There are no ties in baseball. Except for an All Star game a few years ago.
Tie does not go to the runner. The runner has to beat the play to be called safe.
That’s a super easy safe call. What are we even doing. We have the technology to get these calls correct and these clown umps still screw it up.
How is that not clear and convincing?
Remember it's when the ball enters the glove opening, not hits the back of the glove.
I slowed it down to 0.25x speed and went frame by frame and it's pretty much an exact tie from what I can see, I understand why they went with call stands.
@@BigBear48 0:42 Clear and convincing safe. Heel is on the bag. 0:45 ball still outside the glove
@@--dh-- Agree to disagree I guess, I still can't see a clear frame showing both the ball and the foot. The view at 0:42 shows a good angle of the ball but we can't really tell when the foot hits the bag. The view at 0:45 shows a good view of the foot but we can't really see the ball.
@@--dh-- the ball enters the glove opening ON THE SAME FRAME that the batter runner touches the bad. not clear and convincing call stands.
@@tw1nn319 Toe hits the bag at the same time. Heel hit while ball was a few inches from the opening of the glove.
West coast biased strikes again. There are legit stills of him being safe. Gotta stick to your target market though
Looks safe. But then again there have been 2 crazy hits that were ruled Home runs, even tho one was foul and the other was clear fan interference