The plot of the dark Nest Trilogy was the tension rising with the chiss as the bug bois were doing bad things and jaina and others defending them. And Jacen isn't even evil in this book just practical.
This just sums up my feelings on the "Denningverse" perfectly. NJO spent so much time exploring Jacen Solo's character specifically. He's an entirely different person starting in Dark Nest. Gone is the thoughtful, compassionate Jedi, and in his place is a budding anti-hero who is both so arrogant and holier than thou that he's unrecognizable. The thought that Jacen essentially has a one night stand in exchange for a military favors says everything about what Denning thinks of Jacen. Jacen's whole arc in Traitor put him through hell and refined him into something more-it didn't break him like Denning keeps trying to suggest. The character assassination of Vergere is also frustrating, she was such a different complex character. Reducing her to a conniving sith was just a waste. NJO was good because it didn't rely on the same Jedi vs Sith tropes, it was fun and interesting to see the Imperial remnant, Chiss, and New Republic all have to figure things out together to address an outside threat. After reading Legacy of the Force, I too had no desire to read any more from Star Wars. It just makes me sad, I want to see more of the NJO characters.
Expectations: Legacy of the Force (All of it) Jedi Academy Children of the Jedi Planet of Twilight Order 66 (wouldn't be suprised if the rest of RC make it) Clone Wars Gambit: Siege and Stealth (also known as Sieging Gambit) Crucible Dark Nest Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse Knights Errant
@@qualityautismNoah I forgot that you don't like the Rebellion era Zahn novels. Then again, I leep forgeting that those novels exist. I don't know if that says more about me or the novels themselves.
I remember when I was reading Fatal Alliance that I put the book down and said to myself, "Wow we're over half way through the book and have only now gotten to the Fatal Alliance"
44:30 They make Jaina Solo into Boba Fett's bottom bitch just so the author can bitch about how much better the Mandalorians are when compared to the Jedi, despite the fact that Jaina's fought against the Vong, a race that has lightsaber-proof armor and resists the Force. Last I checked, the Mandalorians only have the former, not the latter. Meanwhile, the Mandalorians get genocided every time they go up against the Jedi. From the Mandalorian Wars to the Battle of Galidraan, the Jedi pretty much slaughter the Mandalorians, like putting down mad dogs and turning them into pig feed. Some Jedi dissidents defect from the Council's authority during the Mandalorian Wars, and they fucking decimate the Mandalorians' Empire. A small Jedi strike team lands on Galidraan, and the True Mandalorians are eradicated down to a man, with Jango being the only survivor. So why in bloody fuck would she turn to Boba for training against Jacen? How the hell does that even make any sense? At least in The Last Jedi, when the good guys went looking for a code breaker in a casino world, that is a likely place for a hacker to hang around in, given that it's a place where a hacker can make some easy money. Not to mention Boba doesn't have a single Jedi kill to his name. Neither do his Mandalorians. So Jaina going to them to learn how to fight Jacen makes no sense whatsoever. Her own grandfather killed more Jedi using standard Dark Jedi techniques due to his suit limiting his use of the Dark Side. And sure, Death Watch made Kenobi look like a tool, but that's a different Mandalorian tribe entirely.
I absolutely agree that by far the worst SW EU content is the Denning and Traviss stuff. There is some mediocre or just really forgettable stuff out there (other than what you mentioned, I'd also add for example the Crystal Star, The Ruins of Dantooine, Razor's Edge, Dawn of the Jedi: Into the Void, ...), but as boring/mediocre as I thought these books were, I can't really say that I hate them, I just don't really care much about them (even Crystal Star and the KJA and Barbara Hambly stuff - yeah, it's all silly stuff, but whatever) On the other hand, the Traviss and Denning stuff I just actively hate. I just can't stand them, it seems to me as if they would actively try to make me hate Star Wars. The mandos as depicted by Traviss are such unlikable Mary Sue characters it's insane, not to mention how she tries her best to actively ruin the non-mando characters. And I am not even going to talk about Denning, I 100% agree with your assessment of his post NJO work...
Personally instead of Travis’s work, I just like mandos that are written like Boba and Jango or Canderous and Delta Squad (Or any other mando that’s not written like a Mary Sue, Traviss wrote some good tech/culture lore but her storytelling is shite.)
Do you guys think that Karen Travis had a maori fetish or liked the Jangotard storyline in Cestus Deception so much that she started copying it on a massive scale?
Jedi Academy was such a good concept...thanks KJA, you turned the Imperial Remnant into idiot clowns. This was a good video and once again I'm reminded to just stop reading after NJO. TLJ nearly killed Star Wars for me, but after listening to the audio dramas of the original trilogy I got into the EU. This thing is a huge mixed bag.
i don't like to discourage people from checking out the books for themseleves (after all, people like different things), but if you are a really big NJO fan and love the character work and worldbuilding stuff, the more you will probably dislike what the Denningverse did. I do however HIGHLY recommend the Legacy comic series set 100 years after the NJO, which is an excellent sequel to NJO, aswell was being a great and newcomer friendly story on it's own.
@@qualityautismNoah The funny thing is, your previous video made me reconsider Crystal Star. I had originally written that one off as "the bad one" but I didn't consider that it might be "so bad it's good". Honestly, I can see myself reading all of the EU at some point. It's just a matter of prioritizing certain books and continuities over others because of how dense (and sometimes contradictive) it seems to be.
I did not expected to see Republic Commando here, but I can't say I disagree with this choice xD One of the most overrated SW series to be sure, even tho the first one was indeed pretty decent. Also it is always nice to see some rants on Denningverse. I am certainly not going to touch any of the books from that period even with a 10 foot pole ;P
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21:22 The filler scenes with anakin and padme Makes the date in episode 2 More better by comparison Episode 2 is decent in my opinion Except the jar jar binks emergency powers act And the mentioned romance And i respect your opinions If you like or dislike that movie
Honestly, both Denning and Anderson are mediocre writers. But Denning is astute: he can manipulate the readers' feelings with moving, epic sentences that impress and distract your attention from "but this dialogue/description/character's development doesn't make sense!".
As someone who reads books out of order, I have no problems with Scoundrels and I think that if the biggest problem with that novel is just "continuity", then it might be because you don't like Zahn's behaviour, not the novel itself. PS please, don't insert Christ in your swearing, I'm a Christian and I get offended by it. I would love it if you avoided it in the future, or bleep it, thank you.
If I invited Noah into my house that'd be different. My house my rules. This is his video though. He can do as he pleases. Also something so small as that shouldn't offend you. You can only be offended if you choose to be offended. You can just not care like me.
i really don't like Zann's behaviour, that's true. And Scoundrels just showd Zahn's disrespect for other people's work, that i couldn't unsee it, especially since i really love Crispins Trilogy. (Second place is Zahn talking shit about NJO, only to ALSO say "but i never read it, so whatever")
@@magnenoalex2 It's not only unbelievers who swear against God; I come from a place where blasphemy is a way of greeting, go figure! I didn't mean to police anyone, but I just asked politely for a little change, on the other hand I don't think Noah meant to disrespect me, but it was like you got invited to someone's place and the host, in the middle of a conversation, lit a cigarette and started puffing smoke in your face: that's something not even smokers like! Speaking of which, a YT channel is not like a private house where you can invite only who YOU want; it's more like a tazebao affixed to a public wall, which random passers by can read/comment; proof of it is that there might be people who dislike it; moreover, YT might decide to stop/ban/cancel your posts/videos/channel, therefore it's not really "your home your rules". Truth is that there are people with different sensibilities: to you a blasphemy is a trifle thing, to me it's as if someone insulted my own father, thus my disappointment. Thank you for helping me making my pov clearer.
i read that on a german website; it was a translation of an Interview he did at a Celebration (around 2012 i believe). Couldn't find it right now, but he basically only said "Del Rey is aware the fans don't like that things keep getting darkeer, so they told the authors to bring more fun back in Fate of the Jedi".
I Only Like The New Jedi Order Jedi Subplot Luke Skywalker Kyp Durron And Gantoris In The Jedi Academy Trilogy Those Are The Only Good Ideas I Have In There I Think There Should Be An Animation Styled Adaption Of The Jedi Academy Trilogy And Have It Focused On The Jedi Plot And Exar Kun And The Non-Filler Moments As In Moments That Are Not Filler And Have The Pointless Filler Moments Mentioned Only Instead Of Taking 30 Or More Pages To Explain And I Agree Darksaber Is Cool
I AM ONE OF THE RANDOM PEOPLE who liked Children of the Jedi; it is not atrocious!😄 Try read it again (and just in case you feel like to commit suicide again, please consider giving your SW collection away to me!) And no, the swap between Callista and Cray is different from what happened in WW1984, bc Cray consciously decided her fate.
Well, this will piss people off for sure. Feel free to scream and fight in the comments!
I'll do it lovingly. This is prior to watching. I'm prepared to destroy you
Omg I agree 100 percent on Allegiance
Man I love being an Idiot I guess. 🙄love you though. I dont think your an idiot.... just wrong.
The plot of the dark Nest Trilogy was the tension rising with the chiss as the bug bois were doing bad things and jaina and others defending them. And Jacen isn't even evil in this book just practical.
As for LOTF gotta save everything in my heart for the war. Can't waste precious ammo in the comments but just you wait ;) lol.
This just sums up my feelings on the "Denningverse" perfectly. NJO spent so much time exploring Jacen Solo's character specifically. He's an entirely different person starting in Dark Nest. Gone is the thoughtful, compassionate Jedi, and in his place is a budding anti-hero who is both so arrogant and holier than thou that he's unrecognizable. The thought that Jacen essentially has a one night stand in exchange for a military favors says everything about what Denning thinks of Jacen. Jacen's whole arc in Traitor put him through hell and refined him into something more-it didn't break him like Denning keeps trying to suggest. The character assassination of Vergere is also frustrating, she was such a different complex character. Reducing her to a conniving sith was just a waste. NJO was good because it didn't rely on the same Jedi vs Sith tropes, it was fun and interesting to see the Imperial remnant, Chiss, and New Republic all have to figure things out together to address an outside threat. After reading Legacy of the Force, I too had no desire to read any more from Star Wars. It just makes me sad, I want to see more of the NJO characters.
Jedi Academy Trilogy is probably my favorite trilogy of the Bantam era.
Wrong answer.
@@stopmotionman1866 I use it as a palate cleanser after the Rogue Squadron trilogy
Expectations:
Legacy of the Force (All of it)
Jedi Academy
Children of the Jedi
Planet of Twilight
Order 66 (wouldn't be suprised if the rest of RC make it)
Clone Wars Gambit: Siege and Stealth (also known as Sieging Gambit)
Crucible
Dark Nest
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
Knights Errant
damn, really really close!
@@qualityautismNoah I forgot that you don't like the Rebellion era Zahn novels. Then again, I leep forgeting that those novels exist. I don't know if that says more about me or the novels themselves.
I remember when I was reading Fatal Alliance that I put the book down and said to myself, "Wow we're over half way through the book and have only now gotten to the Fatal Alliance"
Half of these picks are good picks ......however...lol
Good video Noa.
Yes let the hate flow through him. Become the dark side Noah.
44:30 They make Jaina Solo into Boba Fett's bottom bitch just so the author can bitch about how much better the Mandalorians are when compared to the Jedi, despite the fact that Jaina's fought against the Vong, a race that has lightsaber-proof armor and resists the Force. Last I checked, the Mandalorians only have the former, not the latter. Meanwhile, the Mandalorians get genocided every time they go up against the Jedi. From the Mandalorian Wars to the Battle of Galidraan, the Jedi pretty much slaughter the Mandalorians, like putting down mad dogs and turning them into pig feed.
Some Jedi dissidents defect from the Council's authority during the Mandalorian Wars, and they fucking decimate the Mandalorians' Empire. A small Jedi strike team lands on Galidraan, and the True Mandalorians are eradicated down to a man, with Jango being the only survivor. So why in bloody fuck would she turn to Boba for training against Jacen? How the hell does that even make any sense? At least in The Last Jedi, when the good guys went looking for a code breaker in a casino world, that is a likely place for a hacker to hang around in, given that it's a place where a hacker can make some easy money.
Not to mention Boba doesn't have a single Jedi kill to his name. Neither do his Mandalorians. So Jaina going to them to learn how to fight Jacen makes no sense whatsoever. Her own grandfather killed more Jedi using standard Dark Jedi techniques due to his suit limiting his use of the Dark Side. And sure, Death Watch made Kenobi look like a tool, but that's a different Mandalorian tribe entirely.
I liked the Jedi Academy trilogy. Sure, wasn't that good looking at it critically, but it was among the first of the EU books I read
Haven't read Scoundrels but the timeline was a big turnoff for me because I absolutely adore A.C. Crispin.
And then of course complete bad take on Jedi academy ;)
I enjoy children of the Jedi. I know it has problems though.
I absolutely agree that by far the worst SW EU content is the Denning and Traviss stuff. There is some mediocre or just really forgettable stuff out there (other than what you mentioned, I'd also add for example the Crystal Star, The Ruins of Dantooine, Razor's Edge, Dawn of the Jedi: Into the Void, ...), but as boring/mediocre as I thought these books were, I can't really say that I hate them, I just don't really care much about them (even Crystal Star and the KJA and Barbara Hambly stuff - yeah, it's all silly stuff, but whatever)
On the other hand, the Traviss and Denning stuff I just actively hate. I just can't stand them, it seems to me as if they would actively try to make me hate Star Wars. The mandos as depicted by Traviss are such unlikable Mary Sue characters it's insane, not to mention how she tries her best to actively ruin the non-mando characters. And I am not even going to talk about Denning, I 100% agree with your assessment of his post NJO work...
Personally instead of Travis’s work, I just like mandos that are written like Boba and Jango or Canderous and Delta Squad (Or any other mando that’s not written like a Mary Sue, Traviss wrote some good tech/culture lore but her storytelling is shite.)
"I don't have any ideas, I'm Karen Miller, I'm uncreative, I can't do anything, I'm terrible!"
Have you ever considered a career writing for Disney?
Do you guys think that Karen Travis had a maori fetish or liked the Jangotard storyline in Cestus Deception so much that she started copying it on a massive scale?
Jedi Academy was such a good concept...thanks KJA, you turned the Imperial Remnant into idiot clowns. This was a good video and once again I'm reminded to just stop reading after NJO. TLJ nearly killed Star Wars for me, but after listening to the audio dramas of the original trilogy I got into the EU. This thing is a huge mixed bag.
i don't like to discourage people from checking out the books for themseleves (after all, people like different things), but if you are a really big NJO fan and love the character work and worldbuilding stuff, the more you will probably dislike what the Denningverse did.
I do however HIGHLY recommend the Legacy comic series set 100 years after the NJO, which is an excellent sequel to NJO, aswell was being a great and newcomer friendly story on it's own.
@@qualityautismNoah The funny thing is, your previous video made me reconsider Crystal Star. I had originally written that one off as "the bad one" but I didn't consider that it might be "so bad it's good". Honestly, I can see myself reading all of the EU at some point. It's just a matter of prioritizing certain books and continuities over others because of how dense (and sometimes contradictive) it seems to be.
I did not expected to see Republic Commando here, but I can't say I disagree with this choice xD One of the most overrated SW series to be sure, even tho the first one was indeed pretty decent. Also it is always nice to see some rants on Denningverse. I am certainly not going to touch any of the books from that period even with a 10 foot pole ;P
Lmaooo “He was cool, and then he started sucking. As a character. Maybe in person.”
Lmao the ADHD kid impression for Jedi Academy trilogy. And respect for calling out Zahn’s disrespect.
The last twenty minutes of this video should be permanently pinned to the top of every EU community
I just clicked for the thumbnail. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. 😂
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I don't get it. What's your worst SW book?😄😄😄
Cronal was great
I'm guessing you don't like Shadows of Mindor
Brave from you to stand so hard against Republic Commando
Never laughed so hard
Would you rather let Denning have creative control or Dave Filoni have it?
i don't want either of them to have any control.
@@qualityautismNoah Filoni is such trash
21:22
The filler scenes with anakin and padme
Makes the date in episode 2
More better by comparison
Episode 2 is decent in my opinion
Except the jar jar binks emergency powers act
And the mentioned romance
And i respect your opinions
If you like or dislike that movie
Is this when you used to naively think KJA could write YA fiction?
yes, and i still think he's better at that than regular novels.
Are you going to make a Top 10 EU Comics and top 10 worst list as well?
yes!
@@qualityautismNoah Nice!
Knight Errant most interesting aspect to me was flamboyant Damien.
Fatal alliance is just really forgettable.
Nice list! And I love Legacy of the Force lol
What a surprise. Denning bashing.
of course!
THEN HE IS LOST! LOL
LOL, he is my favorite author.
And a Kevin J Anderson basher. Poor Anderson
Honestly, both Denning and Anderson are mediocre writers. But Denning is astute: he can manipulate the readers' feelings with moving, epic sentences that impress and distract your attention from "but this dialogue/description/character's development doesn't make sense!".
As someone who reads books out of order, I have no problems with Scoundrels and I think that if the biggest problem with that novel is just "continuity", then it might be because you don't like Zahn's behaviour, not the novel itself.
PS please, don't insert Christ in your swearing, I'm a Christian and I get offended by it. I would love it if you avoided it in the future, or bleep it, thank you.
I'm a Christian.... I dont think the best way to talk to unbelievers or get them to respect you is to police their language.
If I invited Noah into my house that'd be different. My house my rules. This is his video though. He can do as he pleases. Also something so small as that shouldn't offend you. You can only be offended if you choose to be offended. You can just not care like me.
i really don't like Zann's behaviour, that's true. And Scoundrels just showd Zahn's disrespect for other people's work, that i couldn't unsee it, especially since i really love Crispins Trilogy.
(Second place is Zahn talking shit about NJO, only to ALSO say "but i never read it, so whatever")
@@magnenoalex2 It's not only unbelievers who swear against God; I come from a place where blasphemy is a way of greeting, go figure!
I didn't mean to police anyone, but I just asked politely for a little change, on the other hand I don't think Noah meant to disrespect me, but it was like you got invited to someone's place and the host, in the middle of a conversation, lit a cigarette and started puffing smoke in your face: that's something not even smokers like!
Speaking of which, a YT channel is not like a private house where you can invite only who YOU want; it's more like a tazebao affixed to a public wall, which random passers by can read/comment; proof of it is that there might be people who dislike it; moreover, YT might decide to stop/ban/cancel your posts/videos/channel, therefore it's not really "your home your rules".
Truth is that there are people with different sensibilities: to you a blasphemy is a trifle thing, to me it's as if someone insulted my own father, thus my disappointment.
Thank you for helping me making my pov clearer.
34:38 do you have an interview about the whole backtrack on Del ray and the troy Denning stuff that Aaron Allison said?
i read that on a german website; it was a translation of an Interview he did at a Celebration (around 2012 i believe). Couldn't find it right now, but he basically only said "Del Rey is aware the fans don't like that things keep getting darkeer, so they told the authors to bring more fun back in Fate of the Jedi".
Anything by Denning
At Least Children Of The Jedi Is Not Written By Brian Griffin
I Admit Not into Barbara
Either
Good Writers in my opinion
Timothy Zahn
James Luceno
Jack Johnson Miller
Matthew Stover
Jedi search should have been 2 books. 2 competent ideas, one book was too cluttered and poorly connected.
14:13 is that a mutated trandoshan? (when are we going to watch that mario movie)
no, that's just Dylan.
Neutral Writers in my opinion
Kevin J Anderson
I Only Like The New Jedi Order Jedi Subplot Luke Skywalker
Kyp Durron And Gantoris In The Jedi Academy Trilogy
Those Are The Only Good Ideas I Have In There
I Think There Should Be An Animation Styled Adaption
Of The Jedi Academy Trilogy
And Have It Focused On The Jedi Plot And Exar Kun
And The Non-Filler Moments
As In Moments That Are Not Filler
And Have The Pointless Filler Moments Mentioned Only
Instead Of Taking 30 Or More Pages To Explain
And I Agree Darksaber Is Cool
what
Bad Writers in my opinion
Barbara Hambly
Karen Miller
I AM ONE OF THE RANDOM PEOPLE who liked Children of the Jedi; it is not atrocious!😄 Try read it again (and just in case you feel like to commit suicide again, please consider giving your SW collection away to me!)
And no, the swap between Callista and Cray is different from what happened in WW1984, bc Cray consciously decided her fate.
Good point
still none of the other character talk about how effed up that body swap is, or are even sad that Cray is dead.
@@qualityautismNoah true!
That's called suicide
Die ham alle geschrieben wie Flasche leer ^^
Honestly Zahn's retconning Lando and Han in scoundrels is perfectly fine since the Han Solo trilogy is absolute dogshit
BRUH
2:54
Scoundrels is fine. Get over it.