HydroTesting a 4500 PSI Carbon Fiber Tank vs Catastrophic SCBA FAIL!!!
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- Опубликовано: 1 авг 2017
- In this video we see why tanks need to be hydrotested, what is a hydrotest and how it is done, where testing can be performed, the cost to test, and the possible results of using a tank that is not hydrotested.
Be safe! Hydrotests are inexpensive, and well worth doing.
PLEASE, for your safety, as well as those that are around you, always use a tank that is "In hydro" (i.e. has been currently hydrotested. 
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News about the Titan brought me here...
If I can be allowed to add one very important fact that I think was glossed over in the hydro static testing, is that no air exists inside the tank when it is tested. The tank if completely filled with water. Water is in-compressible, therefore if the tank were to have a catastrophic failure while being tested it simply splits open and does not explode. otherwise, nice job.
T Shooter EXCELLENT point. I guess I forgot too mention that very important fact.
Cleaver lad I'm glad you added the comment I had visions of men shaking like leaves on ever test. I had a carbon fibre bottle but got rid of it because I never felt safe around it.
2:00 best representation of how the Titanic sub would have failed. It wouldn't have shattered in a million pieces, and it wouldn't have crushed like a tin can. The integrity would have been lost and it would turn into a bunch of carbon fibers held together.
Joe is a really good guy and extremely knowledgable about everything HPA and more. He helped me out big time with my Hatsan Bullboss when Hatsan was giving me the runaround and in fact still waiting on Hatsan come to think about it. Joe took the time, after hours to help me locate an O-ring for the valve stem that the hammer strikes against to let that squirt of air from the tank to send the pellet flying. It turned out to be 1.3mm X1.0mm O-ring, yeah, very tiny but necessary. Joe didn't have any at that moment but the fact that he took the time and had access to info to get me this info is stunning and very impressive. I later bought a valve for my fill tank from him and haven't had one single problem with it and was better priced from him than other places that had the same valve. Thanks to Joe my Bullboss was up and running in a few days and I bought 25 of those tiny O-rings from eBay for 5$ and no I still haven't received any from Hatsan YET..not kidding...been well over 2 weeks since I emailed Hatsan about the problem. Joe saved my butt and my super accurate gun. Forever will be thankful. Awesome to think that a guy will take the time after hours to help me with a product that wasn't even bought from him and for a .10 cent part!!! Super good guy..Thanks Joe.
Thank you for a very nice post. I appreciate it when people take the time to say "thank you"
Best to you and SAFE SHOOTING!
This video educated me on how little I knew about these Air Tanks. Thank you for sharing this important fact with us.👍
Yes, it is amazing, the amount of energy that is contained in a 4500 PSI air cylinder and why a hydro-test is so very important.
@@AirGunScientist ....and in a relatively small containment as well.
Just wanted to say it's awesome what your doing good information for guys just getting into the sport not only that but keeping us safe. I work out in the oil field I know what pressure can do. Most people that don't deal with this type of hazard on a day to day bases. So it's good to help people understand what pressure can do.
Thank you. So few people understand the necessity for a hydro. They think I post stuff like this because I want to sell new tanks. The truth is, I worked in Aerospace, and if I can, I won't allow flawed devices to be out there endangering people's lives.
I'm on a Carbon Fiber rabbit hole, thanks to the Titan disaster. Carbon fiber seems like a bad choice to do 10000ft dives over and over.
Oh its definitely not a good idea.. remember carbon fiber is basically just material and hardened glue..
Every time you put such immense pressures or stress the mixture will contract and expand and this could cause the integrity to be compromised.. micro cracks.. and more cracks the next time you dive..
Underwater the pressure is equally from all sides... so the moment the hull is weakened and does not have uniform strength it will collapse..
You could probably get away with carbon fiber if you seriously over engineer the strength.. but you definitely shouldn't be 'pushing it to the limits'.
I used to be a road cyclist.. and i had a carbon bike.. and after a couple of years of cycling the frame is not as stiff as when it was new.. you can feel the frame bending more under each pedal stroke.. .this obviously means wear and tear causes it to weaken.
@@zaskadu8320 lol I have a solid steel old-ass mountain bike that feels like a damn rock on wheels. no bending there XD it's heavy as shit though
Absolutely vital to hydro when required. Unlike scuba where they actually stamp the tanks and will not fill them if out of hydro test date, PCP, mate, who is checking except yourself? As an ex safety officer and seen all of these gruesome videos, money well worth spent because one's life has got to be more than 40 bucks, at least mine is LOL.
Found a place called "scuba tank services" $69.95 with a 72hour estimated turn around for hydro testing a carbon fiber tank. Thought some my be curious on the cost. Great video, thanks
Awesome video, I worked in a dive shop way back in my younger days. I've seen tanks fail during testing.
Great point!
@@AirGunScientist According to the NAVY, and their testing, cylinders will show other signs of failure prior to catastrophic failure. If you have any deformation or leaking, stop using that cylinder... and get modal acoustic emissions testing done every five years... and toss the cylinder after 30... There! I just saved a bunch of money thanks to the NAVY.
@@horscategorie would a carbon tank be safer than a aluminum tank?
Thanks Joe lot of people do not think it matters.
Very cool video i was a certified Scuba Diver in the late 1970s and the Dive shops used to make it sound like it was the great big mystery on how and where the tanks got Hydro tested so now at 56 years old and over 250 logged dives under my belt i figured i would really learn of course in modern times air tanks are also used for paint ball now as well back in my day there was only 2 manufacturers of Scuba tanks one made the Steel and the other Aluminum of course they were sold by many companies under different names with different valves
So in 40+ years you've only dived 250 times or just over "bi-monthly" and that has "educated" you on the mysteries of "hydro testing"?
Uh...paintball "markers" use C02. Not "wet" compressed atmospheric air. It tends to cause "icing" due to the huge and total pressure drop at the "breech". CO2 is also "cheap" compared to "scuba tanks" and a "scuba compressor". Not to mention as an inert gas with no temperature-pressure gradient and a hell of a lot more density than "air" for a lot more "power" per psi at a far lower "tank pressure" CO2 bottles can be made of the same material the overwhelming vast majority of CO2 "pressure vessels" filled daily are made from. Aluminum. The "pressure vessels"? Carbonated beverage cans. And now "bottles".
All air compressors capable of "high pressure" - 250 psi and up - are also "oiled" and "compress" the air so much that "cleaning" and "drying" the air is impossible. Of course compressor oil is "mineral oil" and "non-toxic" but its still a "solvent" that will "soften" the "epoxy" adhesive "cement" in "composites" like fiberglass and carbon fiber in their "raw" state and that's what "hydro testing" is really "looking for".
Otherwise pressure vessels - especially steel - are only "hydro tested" when they are used to store heavier-than-air "dual threat" hazardous materials like anhydrous ammonia and after the tanks have held only "air" at any point since their last certification.
Water vapor, condensation and "hydrocarbon" ingredients in the petroleum-based NH3 and the sulfur and salts that always go with "refined crude oil" can form sulfuric and/or hydrochloric acid and corrode pressure vessels even if they're not "rusty".
No "pro" scuba diver would ever f&ck around "hydro testing" anything in his "toolbox" because he would see that initial CERTIFICATION for what it is. The manufacturer's "guarantee" on what is obviously a "perishable" product with an indeterminate service life but one not exceeding 5 years "reliably" subjected to "normal use".
Thanks for spreading this awareness man i own my own compressor but thay does not mean at all when it comes out of hydro ill keep doing it those guys are playing with a very gruesome death
It actually scares me when I see people using un-hydrotested tanks.
Great video!!!!
Thanks!!
Interesting. Guessing is a like high pressure pressure washer to fill, what is already filled with water in, the tank. The tank of course like you noted is in another tank that measure the displacement of water to then do the math to determine if the tank is within the volume expansion specification limits. Doesn't seem that complicated actually, however, most don't have a background in holistic lab systems development and validation. Interesting, neat to watch and also yesterday learn about the newer Modal Acoustic Emission (MAE) testing that can be performed to further extend the life of carbon fiber tanks. Seems like such a waste to destroy the tanks... unless the material is recycled or can be repurposed for something maybe where the aluminum tubes or ends can be used.
I'm glad i watched this because I put mines in back sack when i go hunting
I'd like to get one of these to keep in my vehicle in case the day ever comes where I end up in a lake/river and have difficulty getting out of the vehicle.
Also , try to always buy a new valve. You don't know if the previous owner over tightened the valve. Of course always torque to manufacturers specifications.
normellow Many people upgrade to our TJ3 SLO-FLO valve. Out comes complete with 2 gauges, one to show the pressure being put into the pcp airgun, and the second gauge that constantly shows the pressures inside the carbon fiber tank.
I bought one and sold it within a month. The creaking and cracking while filling it was nerve racking
Great video Joe! question for you, should I remove the valve on my tank before sending it in for hydro testing?(after degassing the tank of course)
No need to remove, as the Hydrotest facility will do so. With that said, if you can remove the valve, do so, so that you know they don't damage it by dropping it, etc..
my carbon tank got a small dent while being shipped to me should i be worried ?
I have a question. I needed to hydro test small 4500 68 inch carbon fiber tank. Now initially this tank's gauge was broken and they told me to get a new gauge or else they would NOT do the hydro test. I did get a new gauge. Two weeks later the hydro test was successful but when they fill up the the the tank. Air was coming out from the New gauge !!!
Could it be possible that they screw up my new gauge with the hydro test ??? I need to know this because I feel these guys are hidding something from me. As I am new to this. I just don't want to accuse them without knowing.
i own a great white tank from you it works great
Chris, Thank you for the kind words. Please tell your friends or those on the forums so they'll know. We rely on word-of-mouth.
Cheers :-)
Same
I heard that it is extremely rare for a carbon fiber tank to to fail hydro testing. This is one reason why in the last few yrs the government has allowed C.F. tanks to have their life extended for an additional 15yrs, but they must pass stringent tests in order to do so.
Wow!!!!
How come in the US a carbon tank has a 15 year service life but the same exact model tank has a 30 year service life in the UK? The US Navy also uses their lowest bidder tanks for 30 years. They did a really good white paper and study on debunking the 15 year life.
Edit - found the paper. It’s a good read.
www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/docs/technical-resources/55976/navy-self-contained-breathing-apparatus-scba-composite-cylinder-life-extension-research-project.pdf
I got 5500 on expired fire fighter tanks. Got good valves and burst disk.. yep. 5500. Fck 4500. I have a Huben gk1 air pistol.
5500psi would be nice but I couldn’t fill that with my compressor. How do you fill to 5500psi?
@@Cr125stin anything more than 4500 usually needs a very specialized compressor like scuba shops use. There are hand pumps that can get that high, but it’s quite a workout.
if you are repurposing an old tank for lower pressure are you safer?
Joe, PCP air rifle cylinders don't get Hydro as far as I know. How long does a PCP air cylinder last? I am sure they can explode as well. I would also think that by the time the air cylinder needs to be replaced the rifle will not be in production. I have firearms that I have had from age 12 and younger including 2 pumpers. I am 50 this coming year and would hate to run into problems. I have never heard anyone talk about the longevity of PCP air cylinders before. Thanks for all your valuable information.
They will typically have a burst disk system built into them that destroys the gun or at least parts of it to safely bleed out the air.
I bought a a carbon fiber tank from a paintball shop, it's out of date ...last hydro test was 2014....is that tank anymore good or do I need to get rid of it 🤔
once the tank reaches the expiry date....what can go wrong..is it safe to use a carbon fiber scuba tank ....
there's this company with good protocols, and then there's the oceangate ceo bringing down scuba tank carbon fiber submarines to 6500 psi...
Hi Joe got a question for you if I had a cylinder that had a valve assembly with worn plating could it still be used as long as it is still up to date on hydro testing? thoughts please thank you
Normally SCBA valves aren't plated, so I am at a loss as to what the issue is. Call 714-907-0067 8-530 Pacific and we can help
Hi, I question you , do you know how is make the succubus??? because i want to make this.
Isn't the hydro-test already putting extra stress on the tank? What if the hydro-test creates a micro crack which isn't noticed by the operator after inspection, and it then explodes in the user's hands just after receiving a certification?
Yes, one may say "the company is gonna get sued" but, the user is dead in the meanwhile...
Unless x-rays of the structure are taken, hydro-testing doesn't actually feel like a real "good to go" test which prevents the hypothetical problem of catastrophic failure, it may actually induce it.
Please, elucidate further if I'm wrong.
Moral of the story, I'd rather buy a new tank that's just been manufactured than testing an old one, if safety is my concern.
The measurement of water volume determines if weakness is present. If pressuring it caused issues, the tank would over-inflate and fail the test.
Joe,
REALLY GOOD INFO!
Question for you - what's the BEST way to carry and store tanks. I'm brand new and want to do things the RIGHT way - I respect my family and care about those around me! Any and all help or maybe a video would be appreciated.
Thank you for your feedback.
99% of our tanks go out the door with the full armor. The other 1% call us and order it if they didn't, wishing they bought it in the first place. They recognize that a tank is an investment, so they want to insure its safety.
The Full Armor (option 3) consists of the following:
Carry Handle
Feet - So the tank doesn't roll around
Boot - Not only protects the bottom of the tank, but also allows the tank to stand up, so you can easily read the gauges.
Tank Protector
More information is here:
experthpa.com/cart/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=58
experthpa.com/cart/secure/images/products/611.jpg
Joe,
I had a chance to read your ad and the listings. Sorry for the additional Q's but as I said I'm returning to air power after decades of powder burning so I'm a neophyte to what's available and am striving to deal with only the best.
Q 1 - Are all your products USA made start to finish?
Q 2 - what is the length of the fill hose?
Q 3 - How many fills for FX Impact sized cylinders?
Q 4 - What's the delivery schedule and is delivery included?
Q 5 - Am assuming (I dislike that word...lol) the tanks are carbon fiber, and am reading the restrictions are possible going to allow a 30 year life expectancy - is that fact or rhetoric?
OK..... will close and say a prayer for your patience as questions from newbies are the worst! My apologies and Thanks! Hoping for a great new friendship and business relationship - my family usually follows my lead....they'll keep you busy!
Out of hundreds of items all are American (other than obvously PCP guns made in Europe). I think only 2 are Chinese becauses they aren't avaiable in the USA.
Not sure which items you meant - you might not have read all of my Q's as there are 5. Again sorry to take up so much of your time, am hoping others can learn along with me. Also - let's SEE if we CAN get those last two items made here - I love displaying American Made signs! If you haven't guessed - yeah I'm Vet who still believes this is the finest place in the world, and I want to keep it that way too. We're in Oregon and have a small horse ranch w/pests - the horses hate loud sudden noises in their barn, and I hate the idea of having a horse come up lame because I dispatch a critter that's not on my preferred guest list! LOL Thanks Again.
I like what you are saying about displaying American Made Sigs. Also as a Vet I always look for thing that are made in that place called USA.
I'm trying to understand, if it fails the test then it could have failed the test for some period of time BEFORE the test was made. Does this suggest that even though it fails, the tank is designed to not burst well beyond the test limits for this exact reason?
Jake the test pressurize the tank to something like 1.6x its limit, he said 5/3 so 2/3 over its limit. if the tank fails at or before that point, its deemed dangerous and likely to blow if dropped or slightly damaged in daily usage. I don't know but guessing that a healthy tank probably should be testable to say 2x its nominel pressure. you simply don't want a tank thats going to fail if your cat sit on it. exaggerating but the point is, any tank will fail if abused enough, you want that point to be far from everyday operation, thats what the test is about, finding out if that point have gotten too close for comfort.
"FAIL" means it "baloons" or "displaces" more water than it is supposed to (i.e. indicating weakness).
"FAIL" dos NOT mean it explodes, only that the tank stretches more than it is allowed.
Hope that makes sense. Cheers.
Does hydro testing consequently weaken or reduce the tank? Seems like a lot of pressure on the tanks...
EXCELLENT QUESTION! No harm. The tanks are designed to withstand a pressure of over 13,000 PSI. They are tested to only 7,500 PSI.
Dang I thought we were going to actually be able to see it blow up. Have you done a video of that in the past, will you in the future?
Watching it blow up would be anti-climactic, as the tanks are not pressurized with Air (or the stored energy would release like a bomb). Instead they are filled with water (hence the reason it is called a HYDRO-test) which is incompressible, and hence release very little energy if the tank were to rupture. Yeah, got to agree, it would be cool to see. I've seen containment vessles tested by using a tank, and shooting it with a 44 mag after they scored the carbon fiber so that it more easily ruptures. Lifts the whole containment vessel off the ground.
He has not, but that would really cool!
And what does overpressuring your tank with 3000 psi do to it's the integrity? I can imagine that a tank passes this pressure test but what did it do to it's internal structure? I think X-raying them or some other kind of technique would be much safer.
This is the proper procedure. Design a tank properly, continue to make as designed, fill with air, and look at how much it expands.
02:15 what was the reached test pressure caused this result and what what the wp of that cylinder?
They are tested at 7500+ PSI. Also, cylinders have failed like that shown if severely damaged (run over by fire apparatus...) Don't forget they have a burst disk to prevent being pressurized that high, so for testing they remove the valve which has the burst disk.
@@horscategorie I do hydrotest too up to 10.000 psi. If there is no any damage on a 300/450 or 517 bar composite cylinder to see this kind of damage almost impossible with normal test pressures
I think the cylinder in your hand testted at 15.000 psi
@@karakuscher Yeah - I have never had or known of any catastrophic failures in over a 24 year career other than individual cases on a national level that always had a severe compromise like apparatus driving over a cylinder. It reminds me of hose testing - Why do it? We stress the hose, it may fail at the next fire... Better just to decommission it at 10 years or whatever testing shows to be appropriate. Testing puts extreme stress on items and sets up future failure, just my opinion.
Just wondering- Do you ever have to hydro-test a hydro-test chamber?
Hmmmm, good question. I'll ask.
It puzzles me. So does it not cause a tank to become weekened at all by pushing it to that piont.
No. It is designed NOT to fail at over 15,000 PSI!
damn lol those are some big tanks. could you theoretically slap a paintball regulator on one of those and use it for paintball?
Bruh people would be like “ this man is crazy but I get the idea “ that’s damn near all day air 🤣
Was the one they showed blown up a fiberglass or carbon fiber. It looked old and fiberglass. Just curious. I have all mne hydroed when they should be as I fill them myself but I am scared even if they have been hydroed lol.
They one in the video was a Carbon Fiber tank.
The Airgun Scientist Joe Brancato thanks for the reply.
It was a Drager 300 bar fibre wrapped composite cylinder.
The one that was shown in the video was what is referred to as a "Hoop Wrapped" as opposed to a fully wrapped. A hopped wrapped tank is an older design (that are still made), and is basically a SCUBA tank that is wrapped with loops of fiberglass around only the middle, (not the neck and base). It's the worst of the worst of the worst. Typically all the weight of a metal tank, the 3 year recert (vs 5 for carbon fiber) and 15 total life of a fiberglass. And they aren't that cheap!
Here they ask 35 euro for a pressure test at our local scuba dealer for steel tank. thats alot of money.
I just paid $40 for a hydro and $20 for a visual at my local shop. SCUBA is not a cheap sport, but I'd rather know my tank is safe than run the risk.
About $25=$35 or so locally in SoCal.
over here in the uk , carbon fibre tanks only last 15 years . after that they cannot be tested. they are only generally use by the fire brigade anyway.
Similar here: 15 years. There is a program to allow some tanks to be sent to a special place that re-certifies them for another 15 years, but it is VERY expensive to re-certify the first time (hundreds of dollars) and subsequently alsl very expensive to re-certify every 5 years. It's not worth the cost to an individual, as it's cheaper to by a cylinder from www.ExpertHPA.com, or AirTanksForSale.com for a few hundred.
So would you test a brand new tank, used tank or both?
New carbon fiber tanks are good for 5 years after mfg date on the tank.
What about for metal tanks? They don't need to be hydro'ed?
Metal Tanks need to be re-hydro tested EVERY year. Carbon Fiber every five, and Fiberglass (most are out of date by now anyway) every 3 years.
HTH
Steel and aluminum SCUBA tanks in the US have to be visually inspected every year and hydro tested every 5 years.
@@Trekker326 Agree, Airgun Scientist is self proclaimed
Good thing thats not a scuba tank, now give the fire department back there tank.
How many times has he seen them explode is my question?
If the tank is to bee filled to 4500psi why are you guys fill them to 7500psi im never going to fill it past. 4500psi and it has a burst disc on it so it will not be filled past 4500psi
Almost all tanks fail on the hydro test ! Because they push them past 4500 . 4500 psi is not enough energy to disintegrate the carbon fiber . The problem is that when they do fail they don’t explode they just leak the air out . Now they fail in testing because there pushed to 7000 psi .
One would never test to only 4500 PSI. If it failed at testing, it could just as easily fail at usage.
What is this Difference of Corban Fiber Cylinder
Fiber Glass Cylinder..??
That's why I don't like carbon fibre tanks, they brake down with time to fast and are overpriced.
Tanks have burst disks on them
that's why i won't buy used no more... i bought 2 used tanks with 2021 dates but one was damage inside valve, it happens when you drope your tank sometimes and the other one had some kind of oil were if you are not careful the wrong oil can blown up the tank right?
Oil and very high pressure air is what makes a diesel engine combust.
Your gonna need atleast 13,000 psi to bust a carbon fiber tank like that but yes, have your tanks hydro tested.
There should be entry-level tanks for beginners 🤣😂 those tanks are high as hell
They also will last longer if filled to lower pressures... so will your compressor... Do you really need your PCP at 4500? Isnt 4000 enough?
Can anybody tell me can I put oxygen in my PCP airguns
NOOO! You're PCP airgun will literally EXPLODE! I have pictures of this from others that have tried, and nearly died! Think of a Diesel engine and how it is ignited. High pressure, fuel (a little oil in the PCP), and oxygen and KABOOM!
You didn't even use or explain the term Hydrostatic. Repeatedly saying Hydro is not professional. Shame.
Tank makers were like, how can we get them to buy new tanks. I know let's force them to do a test that goes way over the maximum pressure and hope they fail. And when they do fail they have to buy a new tank.
they measure the expansion that occurs. a healthy tank should have minimal expansion under less pressure. it is better to pop it ahead of time.
it's like a stress test for humans to measure cardio fitness. if they respond poorly to some physical exertion, they can't regularly maintain that higher rigor unless they're heavily supervised or they might have a heart attack or something.
What does god have to do with not so sure? Maybe will protect me when a Chinese tank blows up on me?
Fake
Anyone who believes and calls on the name of Jesus is forgiven his sins, because He is God who took human form and offered Himself as a sacrifice for your sins. Watch for the imminent appearance of Satan on earth where he will impersonate Jesus. Jesus was eating at Simon's house (Simon was a leper whom Jesus had healed) a few days before His crucifixion when a woman arrived with a box of priceless ointment and anointed Him with the contents. The disciples thought the woman was crazy because she could have sold the ointment and given the money to the needy. She had anointed him for burial, Jesus said, and he commanded that what he had done be reported so that she would be remembered wherever the gospel was preached.
Im a paintballer