I play on an 8bitdo arcade stick as well. I ended up changing out the buttons for seimitsu buttons and and the stick for an LS-55 and that's really my preferred way to play. I just have to much fun playing on a stick and I think changing out the parts can really help you dial in what you want out of it. I highly recommend it personally but I agree it's all down to preference and there is no ultimate perfect choice. Whatever works for you is the perfect choice.
Ya the main problem with buying a stick for a shump imo is that most of the commercially available sticks are developed with fighting games in mind and almost all of them use either Sanwas and only focus on having a fast actuation rather than how the button actually feels to use in game. Its a similar problem to mass produced mechanical keyboards like from Corsair and Razer and is one of the reasons why I like keyboards that allow for hotswapping switches because the stock switches are not comfortable to use reegularly. I do also have Seimitsu buttons and an LS-32 stick I installed in my fightstick, but I really do wish there was a mass produced alternative using those switches so it is comfortable to use without having to mod it.
When I play 16-bit shmups or other classic style shmups, I like using a controller. On the other hand, when I'm playing bullet hell and specifically Cave games, it's a must for me to play on a stick. I bought a pretty good quality stick years ago and it's still kicking. Playing Cave games on a stick is just something else.
Stick is just fun. But its main disadvantage is actually how bulky it is. I don't have a dedicated gaming space, so it's either keep it on the desk, wasting a lot of space or put it away when not playing, which is a PITA and makes me use it less. Outside that, I just use keyboard - maybe because of my background as a PC-first player (PC-only for the longest time), and maybe a bit because I used mechanical keyboards since forever, which still have that satisfying physical feedback.
It's the same with fighting games, arcade stick just feels cool and you can customize it as you want. As someone that just bought the 8bitdo arcade stick for casual play to change easy between setups, i have 4 other arcade sticks full size, there is nothing really wrong with the 8bitdo stock parts, just people feel it's wrong because they are used to sanwa parts. The only difference for the 8bitdo would be if using wireless it's bit laggier but thats something you can play around.
Hey Hazy, love this! Especially the well timed DUN DUN DUN 😂 I play shmups on stick myself, because I'm used to playing fighting games on them since over 20 years ago but I would never say they are superior to other control devices. I own like 8 different ones including pricy versions (crazy I know), and while the 8bitdo probably isn't the best out there, I'm quite sure that it is not the reason you didn't vibe with it. You just have to use what is more comfortable and fun to you. For me it's stick, because it feels authentic and I like to be able to play on a cabinet when I get the opportunity. But on a pure performance level, I think that pad and especially hitbox/keyboard probably do allow for more precise micro-movement. I think most of the top western scorers use those as well. So I agree, stick is not really needed and will probably not improve performance. It's just a cool accessory that is fun to use.
Thanks for the great input as always! I'm interested in trying out different stick models just to see how they differ, so I think I'll try modding the 8bitdo at some point. But... (dun dun dun) I think I'm just a d-pad player at heart, especially as I have no arcade/fighting game background. I do love playing on cabs when I get the chance, though! Can't beat that feeling.
@@hazylevels Totally agree! Also since you've already played on a cab and still didn't feel super comfortable, I'm not sure modding the stick would make that much difference tbh
Excellent video, I play on a stick since I've already been playing fighting games on one for decades now. Although I've recently found to be doing a lot better on my runs when I use a keyboard or a leverless controller, feels a lot more precise. But I think I'll be sticking with the stick anyway since that's how I have the most fun. Also, I love your channel so much
The correct answer is = use whatever you're comfortable with. There is no "right" controller for shmups, it's all personal preference. Use a stick, if you want that authentic arcade feel, but be warned. There's a huge transition curve for building up the muscle memory. And then there's the whole stick debate. Which is "better" for shmups? Sanwa JLF. Seimitsu LS-32, LS-40, LS-56? Again, personal preference. Here's some examples of top players and their controllers: Prometheus, top Dodonpachi player. Uses a keyboard Gus, cleared Mushihimesama Futari Ultra Mode on a Xbox 360 controller Clover-TAC, japanese superplayer with several world records. He prefers Sanwa JLF There's even madlad Softdrink who tried his hand at playing Ketsui with a Beatmania controller ruclips.net/video/AskheW278PE/видео.html Personally I have several fight sticks that I use. I have the Xbox branded 8bitdo fight stick modded with Sanwa JLF and Sanwa buttons. I have several Hori Real Arcade Pro and a trusty Madcatz TE.
I agree. Use what feels good. Fortunately, I grew up in the arcade days and started playing on stick from an early age, so when I started to buy shmups for my PS4 and Switch, I bought a stick and it was an easy transition.
the best controller is the one you're most comfortable with! I play games with nearly every type of controller, but it's really more down to vibe. I like arcade sticks because you dial in all the different parts of it to your liking, but there are so many good controllers at this point you can't go wrong
I think i tried everything since the early 90s. Starting with the SNES controller and SNES Arcade stick. I came from the fighting scene with games like Street Fighter and King of Fighters using Arcade Sticks. I choose Shmups as a second genre to improve using a stick. Within the Switch, PS4, XB1 era I started with 8bitdo's SN30, Mayflash Elite, Hori Rap V and 8bitdo's Arcade Stick. I ended up with 8bitdo's M30 - both for shmups and fighting games. This became my favourite competitive input method. But I still like to play with Arcade Sticks for fun.
@@hazylevels Yeah, since I moved to the M30 it feels like cheating. Especially in fighting games. And I think it's super precise in shmups as well. But I have to say, that I prefer small controllers in general. So the 8bitdo's "30" lineup is perfect for me.
@Ike11Jay I like the small form factor as well! The clicky d-pad on the Xbone controller is nice, but something about the size about the whole thing makes it more suited to modern games than shmups.
I'm the same way but with fighting games instead. I wish I could be able to use an arcade stick but the adjustments required were just too much for me when I was so used to my ps4/xbox controller already. Loved the video it was great and I might even go check out more of your content despite not being too interested in shmups that much
That's interesting! I guess fighting and shooting games are similar in that they're both legacy genres from the arcades, which results in having this tradition of playing with a stick. But it's slowly changing with players coming in who are more comfortable with a gamepad or want to play with new input methods like hitbox controllers.
Also just to add my two cents, I actually use a controller with a longer thumbstick to use as a mini-arcade stick (Xbox Elite Series 2 controller) and it works quite well.
eyyyyyy you own the same stick i do! it's super comfy... if you haven't changed anything about it, consider ordering a sanwa stick and changing its gate to an octagon one - i feel it's a lot comfier to play shmups with! that stick's helped me a lot since i got into fighting games big time and it's amazing for fighters
It's definitely about what you're more comfortable with. I played shmups seriously for about 3 years until I ended up getting my own stick, the progressions was: 360 (broke) - OG Saturn Model 2 with Mayflash Adapter (Adapter died) - MANY Retrobit saturns (overall poor and inconsistent build quality sadly) - OG Saturn Model 2 with 8bitdo wireless conversion (great but the rubber membranes kept failing and I was tired of constantly buying dodgy 30 year old controllers) - and finally the M30 which I currently use as my main input method. I picked up stick because a super cheap HORI RAP 3 became available to me so I couldn't pass on it and I wanted something that wouldn't break within a few months of use finally. Well I ended up hating it and didn't use it for a year cause it felt so bad. Fast forward to earlier this year and I find out that I will have the opportunity to go to an arcade full of shumps; I had no choice but to get good with the stick. What I ended up doing was buying an LS-56 and also a silent JLX lever as a last ditch effort to see if it made a difference, turns out the silent JLX was the key for me (hated the LS-56), felt smooth as butter. Took a month and only used stick no matter the frustration and finally got used to it, but all the hard work paid off as I managed to get 3 1ccs on my arcade visit. Despite all that the m30 is still my preference, even though I am competent on the stick it can't compare to the speed of the pad, but like you say the feel of playing a shmup on a stick is just unmatched. The durability of the stick, the feel, and the utility of being able to play on cabs makes it worth it to me.
Thanks for sharing, very interesting to hear what a player of your caliber thinks on the subject! I really wish I could go and test different stick types somewhere, because I've no idea what I would prefer. But it seems really clear that I should try playing with the M30 some more, so many seem to swear by it. Btw this is totally unrelated, but do you have "dream clears" or shmup goals that you want to achieve someday? I'm asking because just about every time I search for any shmup clear on YT, your channel seems to pop up! And just to be clear, I really appreciate that. I've been looking up some of the more obscure Raizing titles lately and there's just not that many places to go to see someone do a run of 1944 Loop Master :)
@@hazylevels Yeah that's the trouble with all the stick options, you won't know till you get your hands on one. The LS-56 and 32 are all you read about online but they were legitimately unusable for me. Glad my channel has been of help to you and yes Loop Master is highly underrated and ended up being a favorite of mine. As for dream clears, that's a tough one, I'm at the point where I am confident that I can clear most things but there are still a few that give me pause. The one's that come to mind that I want to clear at some point are Tatsujin-Ou and Mars Matrix, and just maybe I'll take on Mushi Ultra one day. I'm not committing to that last one yet thought lol. Really I just have to be in the right state of mind to want to dedicate a bunch of time to focus on one game.
i passed from the atrocious hori split pad d-pad, where every diagonal is a gamble, to the 8bitdo arcade stick and it feels so good. I thought the dualshock 3/4 dpad couldn't be good for shmups but i'll give it a try
Everybody acts like I'm mad for playing arcade games with a thumb stick, but have they ever seen the Xbox style dpads? You need gigantic hands to use that thing comfortably..
Hi Hazy, I play with a PS4 controller as much as I can, I made 90%+ of my 1CC with it, I love this dpad so much! I also have a good Madcatz TE+ stick but feels less precise to me even if I would like to play more with it so when I have the chance to play in arcade (I go often to Japan) so I can be more comfortable with it. The funny thing is I feel more comfortable playing fighting games with my stick haha, I think that's just because I need to train with it on Shmups... PS: Very nice frame with the plants, love the return of the bee 🐝❤
Hey Vinu, thanks for taking the time to share. The PS4 one is surprisingly good! I just recently realized I can easily connect it to pc so I've been playing with it a bunch. But as you say, it's good to be at least a little comfortable with playing on stick so as not to suck completely when in an arcade 🤠 glad you enjoyed the frame and the bee!
Great video, I really enjoyed it and definitely found myself relating to the stick vs pad dilemma. Also, how did you get to play cave games on actual arcade machines?? That’s amazing!!
The PS2 gamepad used to be my goto for shmups on PC, but it starts to hurt your digits after awhile. So I use this Gamestop brand Xbox 360 gamepad now, it's smaller than the stock controller and the dpad isn't as bad. Those 8bitdo's look good, but I might be better off on an arcade stick maybe, mainly because it would be easier on the joints.
Yeah, age is a batch. If I could I'd use those Atgames Genssis style controllers on my laptop, their cheap plastic and fragile design is offset by the fact they're super light and the buttons are responsive to the lightest touch. Accurate dpad top. Games like Forgotten Worlds or Side Arms Hyper Dyne play just fine with it.
I have an arcade stick but I got it for fighting games specifically not for shmups. I mostly use a ps4 controller for shmups as long as the controller is precise and has no delay it is perfect for shmups, there is no motion inputs and complex movments in shmups like it is in fighting games. the reason stick was the standard over controller in the fighting games community was because of its precise inputs over a controller at a high level. however with the genre changing and the hitbox replacing the stick it sort of got replaced, and now it is seen as a legacy controller that was just used during the arcade era i think it is the same for shmups stick is a legacy controller that isn't necessarily the standard and you can do everything as long as you are comfortable , controllers, sticks, keyboards, are all perfect, and also if you are feeling like getting out of the pack you can use a hitbox for shmups (which is the new standard in fighting games)
Thanks for the input! I've heard about hitbox style controllers gaining popularity on the fighting game community, but haven't heard them used much for shmups. I wonder if we'll see a similar change among shmup players at some point? Since hitbox combines the precision of a keyboard with the arcade feel of those buttons.
I'm able to play pad, stick, and keyboard as well. I think it's good to know how to use many forms of controllers. For a while I mainly used pad, but I got lazy fixing pad settings to work with Touhou and old doujin SHMUPS so I just used keyboard which eventually became my preferred input. I grew up emulating games without controllers back in the day so playing on keyboard was never a problem. I currently use keyboard style controllers (Thnikk Fightboard & Haute Board b16) for console. I only got a stick because it's just cool to have one and customize it lol
I grew up playing on keyboard as well, but once I switched over to controllers it's been hard to go back, even if only for ergonomics. I do believe it's the most precise, the same way that stick is undoubtedly the coolest 😎
I was a pad player for many years (I couldn't be as precise with a stick as I was with a d-pad) but didn't manage any clears. I had fun and to me that was the most important part, I accepted being "not good enough". Then I tried using only stick for a couple of months because I found a deal on one and thought "why not". I did about the same, or perhaps a bit worse, for a while and then I started getting clears. Turns out I play a lot more steady with a stick. With my thumb on a d-pad every twitch movement from nerves and excitement registered and I oftentimes died because I was to jittery in dense bullet patterns. When I used a stick every input had to be more deliberate, I guess? So I improved that way. Would I call one input method better than the other? No, it's all preference of course. But to me personally sticks help eliminating a lot of the fidgety movement I cause with a d-pad. :)
That's interesting, thanks for sharing! Reading all these comments makes me feel like playing on stick again at some point. Though I do feel for me it's the opposite: I'm steady on d-pad on jittery on stick :)
I'm very picky with this. I tend to play most of my shmups with an arcade stick, but, for instance, I prefer using a keyboard in Touhou, or a controller with PSX shmups. Pretty nuts.
I haven't gotten super deep with shmups but so far I feel like convenience has been king. It can be hard to get yourself to play a mode you know is going to suck and whatever's readily available tends to be suitable enough for me unless it's touch screen lol. I tried playing mushihimesama futari on ultra today and I was just wondering how I'd ever be good enough to dodge the bullets not whether or not I should plug in my duakshock or get a hitbox or get an snes controller or get an arcade stick.
Totally. I made this video partly because imo there's too much emphasis put on having the "right" controller to be able to play shmups, while in my experience that's not really true. As I say in the video, I don't think it's a bad idea to experiment with input methods and find something you're most comfortable with. But at the end of the day it's the skill that makes the player, not the stick/pad/hitbox/etc.
The 8bitdo arcade joystick is a sanwa JLF clone I think, JLF is fine. I think the sega cabs use seimitsu sticks? I like the ls-32 with an upgraded spring. There are plenty of good shmup sticks, the ls-40, ls-56, ls-58 and probably the lsq-40 though i havent used that. Type of gate can make a difference I like an octagonal but ive used square. I have a brooks universal board but i've use the gp2040 ce board too which is as good if not better it also has some really good autofire options in the web configurator and it's cheap as a raspberry pi pico. Buttons theres a million of but I just use the stock sanwas they dont make that much difference to shmups IMO. Ultimately everything comes down to personal preference. I really like some games on d-pad and use an sn-30 pro which is probably my favourite for everything retro.
Hold down the button on a stick hurts the tendon on my right index finger after about 30 minutes of play. So I have to play with a pad. It’s really a shame because I prefer the way movement feels on a stick.😢
I know what you mean. Nowadays if I'm playing on pc and the game is all about holding the firing button (instead of having to switch attacks all the time like in, say, Cave games), I map a "toggle hold" command in JoytoKey so I can just press the button once and have my right hand rest. Doesn't work in all games but worth looking into if you happen to play on pc, since it can make the stick a viable option again.
I’m at an “advantage/disadvantage” I play on my Astro city cab. I don’t have a ps4 for the m2 ports. So I play straight through or until I die. 1 cc or bust lol
Hardcore :) it would be awesome to do runs on a cab, but I don't think I could go back to a world without practice modes and save states. I have no idea how those old Japanese super plays were achieved when all they could do is full runs.
I use a stick, but right now since I’m in the middle of a big move, I’m not playing any schmups seriously! Hah! :) There’s no wrong way. Just play. That’s what I always say.
Also I’d like to add, cause why not, that I used to be super snobbish about how I played shmups. It was like, real hardware, real pcb or nothing. And what’s funny, is as soon as I started actually seriously playing and trying for 1CC runs, it’s been nothing but ps4 M2 ports and ShmupMame on a mini PC haha. And it’s been the most fun I’ve had playing video games since we closed the arcade I used to work at.
Wow, that's super interesting!! I've always wondered how those old super plays and high scores were possible, when the players had nothing but real cabs to play on. I'm not sure I could play shmups without practice modes or save states anymore.
I think it depends a lot on the controller and your setup. I mostly play wireless except for the Xbone controller, which clearly lags over Bluetooth on my PC.
@@hazylevels sorry I don't want to spam you with questions but it fits these kind of questions so I'd like to ask: how do you memorise the route/chain in DDP games?
Wow, that's a huge question. Personally, I'd advise against learning chains by trying to just copy what a super player does. At first, try finding small chains as you play and then see if you can start stringing them together. Stage 1 is usually very good for getting the hang of it. After giving it a go, watch some replays by decent but not godlike players, and see if you can get ideas from how they do things. Maybe not as effective but a lot more fun this way imo. I know I do some chains in kind of a weird way in DOJ but at least it's my own way.
I find I have "controller days" and "stick" days. It's weird and it would probably be better to always stick with one or the other for consistency, but on days where I'm struggling a lot I often change my input type back and forth. It may just be a placebo effect but it truly does seem to help. Like others have said, I really love the M30 Dpad. I have that same 8bitdo stick with an LS32 that I like for Gradius games where I have to flick the stick to move down just a pixel or two, and I have a Qanba Q4raf with an LS56 that I like for Cave stuff because there's lots of spring tension that I feel helps me micrododge more accurately.
« Just don’t use the analog stick » : why would that be ? I see a lot of fuss in this community about analog being bad, but I have yet to see any proof of this. I got a lot shit thrown at me in some discord for using this input method (in PS4), but unless they can do the sort of pixel precise placements I can do in Darius games it’s hard to give credit to their opinion 😂
@@Prickly_Angler wow, that's very intriguing. I didn't mean to insult anyone using analog stick, I've just always felt like d-pad is more precise for retro 2d action games. I guess I should check my assumptions. Do you feel like there's an advantage to analog in shmups or is it just something you're accustomed to?
@@hazylevels It's alright, it's a very common opinion and I'm very used to getting bad rap for it haha. I can't say it's definetely more precise than other input methods, just that it works much better for me than the PS4 d-pad. The thing is my left hand is partially disabled so I just take whatever's comfier for me in terms of inputs. First question I always have to ask myself before playing a game (or even nitpicking about input methods) is: "can I even play this ?". When I was a kid my first console was the Game Cube, so naturally I thought about Wii, but didn't go for it in the end because it's just implayable for me, same thing with as any real-time games that are played on the keyboard. I can't just buy any game and expect it'll work for me. I can't play well on most d-pads, but some like the one on the Saturn pad work great for me. I don't like home sticks because they take so much place (I live in 15 square meters), are really expensive for nothing, and there's no good grip for me. I see it a bit as a "snobbish" thing since the DS4 does more than the job like you say. I like playing on cabinets, and do very fine on those (not exactly the same muscle memory as what I have at home but I've done a few 1CCs on cab). As for analog I think it really depends on how the developpers implement it in terms of dead zone. M2 is the best for this imo, ACA has a higher dead zone but it's alright for me. On the Capcom Arcade Stadium the dead zone is really high, enough that I didn't want to push the game further after clearing the first loop. The Psikyo ports however have a very limited deadzone, enough that I often hit diagonals when wanting to hit cardinals : makes it unplayable. Also depends on the joystick itself : tried DS4 on Gradius V and it was horrible to me, but I know some like it. There's a few other players that have been using analog, if my memory doesn't fail me I can think of Miclus, Omkol, and skalt711 that have used it/say it was alright on some of their runs. In any case with games that have good analog support I have never felt I could not do an input because of the input method itself (for my skill level at least)
The only way to play Darius games is with the Dreamcast fishing controller!
And 3 CRT's side-by-side!
So true. And dance mat for Dangun Feveron, obviously. I also play Guwange with a modded Shamisen.
Is a modded Guitar Hero controller also ok for Guwange?
I play on an 8bitdo arcade stick as well. I ended up changing out the buttons for seimitsu buttons and and the stick for an LS-55 and that's really my preferred way to play. I just have to much fun playing on a stick and I think changing out the parts can really help you dial in what you want out of it. I highly recommend it personally but I agree it's all down to preference and there is no ultimate perfect choice. Whatever works for you is the perfect choice.
Reading through these comments, I think I'll have to give swapping parts a go at some point!
Ya the main problem with buying a stick for a shump imo is that most of the commercially available sticks are developed with fighting games in mind and almost all of them use either Sanwas and only focus on having a fast actuation rather than how the button actually feels to use in game. Its a similar problem to mass produced mechanical keyboards like from Corsair and Razer and is one of the reasons why I like keyboards that allow for hotswapping switches because the stock switches are not comfortable to use reegularly. I do also have Seimitsu buttons and an LS-32 stick I installed in my fightstick, but I really do wish there was a mass produced alternative using those switches so it is comfortable to use without having to mod it.
When I play 16-bit shmups or other classic style shmups, I like using a controller. On the other hand, when I'm playing bullet hell and specifically Cave games, it's a must for me to play on a stick. I bought a pretty good quality stick years ago and it's still kicking. Playing Cave games on a stick is just something else.
OMG that pink PS2 is unbelievably beautiful
Yeah, I cherish it!
I suck at shmups with every kind of controller 😅 but I prefer sticks because I grew up in the arcade.
Stick is just fun. But its main disadvantage is actually how bulky it is. I don't have a dedicated gaming space, so it's either keep it on the desk, wasting a lot of space or put it away when not playing, which is a PITA and makes me use it less.
Outside that, I just use keyboard - maybe because of my background as a PC-first player (PC-only for the longest time), and maybe a bit because I used mechanical keyboards since forever, which still have that satisfying physical feedback.
thank you so much for the ‘breath of fresh air’ opinion! use what you like/currently have! i really love your vids. thank you for what you do!
Thanks for the kind words!
i like the xbone controller cause the dpad is very clicky. feels good for precise tap dodging :)
It's my favorite controller ever!! It spoiled every other controller for me lmao
I use it and love the improvement over their past controllers
It's the same with fighting games, arcade stick just feels cool and you can customize it as you want. As someone that just bought the 8bitdo arcade stick for casual play to change easy between setups, i have 4 other arcade sticks full size, there is nothing really wrong with the 8bitdo stock parts, just people feel it's wrong because they are used to sanwa parts.
The only difference for the 8bitdo would be if using wireless it's bit laggier but thats something you can play around.
That's good to know about the stock parts vs Sanwa, thanks. And the cool factor is definitely a thing!
Hey Hazy, love this! Especially the well timed DUN DUN DUN 😂
I play shmups on stick myself, because I'm used to playing fighting games on them since over 20 years ago but I would never say they are superior to other control devices.
I own like 8 different ones including pricy versions (crazy I know), and while the 8bitdo probably isn't the best out there, I'm quite sure that it is not the reason you didn't vibe with it.
You just have to use what is more comfortable and fun to you. For me it's stick, because it feels authentic and I like to be able to play on a cabinet when I get the opportunity.
But on a pure performance level, I think that pad and especially hitbox/keyboard probably do allow for more precise micro-movement. I think most of the top western scorers use those as well. So I agree, stick is not really needed and will probably not improve performance. It's just a cool accessory that is fun to use.
Thanks for the great input as always! I'm interested in trying out different stick models just to see how they differ, so I think I'll try modding the 8bitdo at some point. But... (dun dun dun) I think I'm just a d-pad player at heart, especially as I have no arcade/fighting game background. I do love playing on cabs when I get the chance, though! Can't beat that feeling.
@@hazylevels Totally agree! Also since you've already played on a cab and still didn't feel super comfortable, I'm not sure modding the stick would make that much difference tbh
Excellent video,
I play on a stick since I've already been playing fighting games on one for decades now.
Although I've recently found to be doing a lot better on my runs when I use a keyboard or a leverless controller, feels a lot more precise.
But I think I'll be sticking with the stick anyway since that's how I have the most fun.
Also, I love your channel so much
Thanks for watching
controller is nice so your family doesn't frown when they hear the micro switches being spammed
8:47 i use the Switch analog to play Ikaruga, DFK and Progear. I hope Nintendo bring back a dpad on their next console. Nice video, loved ur pink ps2
Hats off to analog shmup warrior 🫡 I cherish the PinkS2, colorful consoles ftw.
The correct answer is = use whatever you're comfortable with. There is no "right" controller for shmups, it's all personal preference. Use a stick, if you want that authentic arcade feel, but be warned. There's a huge transition curve for building up the muscle memory.
And then there's the whole stick debate. Which is "better" for shmups? Sanwa JLF. Seimitsu LS-32, LS-40, LS-56? Again, personal preference.
Here's some examples of top players and their controllers:
Prometheus, top Dodonpachi player. Uses a keyboard
Gus, cleared Mushihimesama Futari Ultra Mode on a Xbox 360 controller
Clover-TAC, japanese superplayer with several world records. He prefers Sanwa JLF
There's even madlad Softdrink who tried his hand at playing Ketsui with a Beatmania controller
ruclips.net/video/AskheW278PE/видео.html
Personally I have several fight sticks that I use. I have the Xbox branded 8bitdo fight stick modded with Sanwa JLF and Sanwa buttons. I have several Hori Real Arcade Pro and a trusty Madcatz TE.
Excellent post! The bit about doing Futari Ultra on a X360 controller slays me.
I agree. Use what feels good. Fortunately, I grew up in the arcade days and started playing on stick from an early age, so when I started to buy shmups for my PS4 and Switch, I bought a stick and it was an easy transition.
the best controller is the one you're most comfortable with!
I play games with nearly every type of controller, but it's really more down to vibe. I like arcade sticks because you dial in all the different parts of it to your liking, but there are so many good controllers at this point you can't go wrong
I think i tried everything since the early 90s. Starting with the SNES controller and SNES Arcade stick. I came from the fighting scene with games like Street Fighter and King of Fighters using Arcade Sticks. I choose Shmups as a second genre to improve using a stick. Within the Switch, PS4, XB1 era I started with 8bitdo's SN30, Mayflash Elite, Hori Rap V and 8bitdo's Arcade Stick. I ended up with 8bitdo's M30 - both for shmups and fighting games. This became my favourite competitive input method. But I still like to play with Arcade Sticks for fun.
Interesting, thanks for sharing! I definitely need to play with the M30 some more.
@@hazylevels Yeah, since I moved to the M30 it feels like cheating. Especially in fighting games. And I think it's super precise in shmups as well. But I have to say, that I prefer small controllers in general. So the 8bitdo's "30" lineup is perfect for me.
@Ike11Jay I like the small form factor as well! The clicky d-pad on the Xbone controller is nice, but something about the size about the whole thing makes it more suited to modern games than shmups.
I'm the same way but with fighting games instead. I wish I could be able to use an arcade stick but the adjustments required were just too much for me when I was so used to my ps4/xbox controller already. Loved the video it was great and I might even go check out more of your content despite not being too interested in shmups that much
That's interesting! I guess fighting and shooting games are similar in that they're both legacy genres from the arcades, which results in having this tradition of playing with a stick. But it's slowly changing with players coming in who are more comfortable with a gamepad or want to play with new input methods like hitbox controllers.
The taste of it all. 🔥
Also just to add my two cents, I actually use a controller with a longer thumbstick to use as a mini-arcade stick (Xbox Elite Series 2 controller) and it works quite well.
thanks for answering the question, I play with a ps5 controller but with the stick I will try out the d pad to see how I do
Try it out for sure! Much more precise once you get used to it.
eyyyyyy you own the same stick i do! it's super comfy... if you haven't changed anything about it, consider ordering a sanwa stick and changing its gate to an octagon one - i feel it's a lot comfier to play shmups with! that stick's helped me a lot since i got into fighting games big time and it's amazing for fighters
Yeah, reading through these comments makes me feel like trying out different parts could be a good idea!
It's definitely about what you're more comfortable with. I played shmups seriously for about 3 years until I ended up getting my own stick, the progressions was: 360 (broke) - OG Saturn Model 2 with Mayflash Adapter (Adapter died) - MANY Retrobit saturns (overall poor and inconsistent build quality sadly) - OG Saturn Model 2 with 8bitdo wireless conversion (great but the rubber membranes kept failing and I was tired of constantly buying dodgy 30 year old controllers) - and finally the M30 which I currently use as my main input method.
I picked up stick because a super cheap HORI RAP 3 became available to me so I couldn't pass on it and I wanted something that wouldn't break within a few months of use finally. Well I ended up hating it and didn't use it for a year cause it felt so bad. Fast forward to earlier this year and I find out that I will have the opportunity to go to an arcade full of shumps; I had no choice but to get good with the stick. What I ended up doing was buying an LS-56 and also a silent JLX lever as a last ditch effort to see if it made a difference, turns out the silent JLX was the key for me (hated the LS-56), felt smooth as butter. Took a month and only used stick no matter the frustration and finally got used to it, but all the hard work paid off as I managed to get 3 1ccs on my arcade visit.
Despite all that the m30 is still my preference, even though I am competent on the stick it can't compare to the speed of the pad, but like you say the feel of playing a shmup on a stick is just unmatched. The durability of the stick, the feel, and the utility of being able to play on cabs makes it worth it to me.
Thanks for sharing, very interesting to hear what a player of your caliber thinks on the subject! I really wish I could go and test different stick types somewhere, because I've no idea what I would prefer. But it seems really clear that I should try playing with the M30 some more, so many seem to swear by it.
Btw this is totally unrelated, but do you have "dream clears" or shmup goals that you want to achieve someday? I'm asking because just about every time I search for any shmup clear on YT, your channel seems to pop up! And just to be clear, I really appreciate that. I've been looking up some of the more obscure Raizing titles lately and there's just not that many places to go to see someone do a run of 1944 Loop Master :)
@@hazylevels Yeah that's the trouble with all the stick options, you won't know till you get your hands on one. The LS-56 and 32 are all you read about online but they were legitimately unusable for me.
Glad my channel has been of help to you and yes Loop Master is highly underrated and ended up being a favorite of mine. As for dream clears, that's a tough one, I'm at the point where I am confident that I can clear most things but there are still a few that give me pause. The one's that come to mind that I want to clear at some point are Tatsujin-Ou and Mars Matrix, and just maybe I'll take on Mushi Ultra one day. I'm not committing to that last one yet thought lol. Really I just have to be in the right state of mind to want to dedicate a bunch of time to focus on one game.
i passed from the atrocious hori split pad d-pad, where every diagonal is a gamble, to the 8bitdo arcade stick and it feels so good.
I thought the dualshock 3/4 dpad couldn't be good for shmups but i'll give it a try
Everybody acts like I'm mad for playing arcade games with a thumb stick, but have they ever seen the Xbox style dpads? You need gigantic hands to use that thing comfortably..
Hi Hazy, I play with a PS4 controller as much as I can, I made 90%+ of my 1CC with it, I love this dpad so much! I also have a good Madcatz TE+ stick but feels less precise to me even if I would like to play more with it so when I have the chance to play in arcade (I go often to Japan) so I can be more comfortable with it.
The funny thing is I feel more comfortable playing fighting games with my stick haha, I think that's just because I need to train with it on Shmups...
PS: Very nice frame with the plants, love the return of the bee 🐝❤
Hey Vinu, thanks for taking the time to share. The PS4 one is surprisingly good! I just recently realized I can easily connect it to pc so I've been playing with it a bunch. But as you say, it's good to be at least a little comfortable with playing on stick so as not to suck completely when in an arcade 🤠 glad you enjoyed the frame and the bee!
Great video, I really enjoyed it and definitely found myself relating to the stick vs pad dilemma. Also, how did you get to play cave games on actual arcade machines?? That’s amazing!!
I'm lucky to live not too far away from an arcade with an amazing selection of games :)
awesome video
The PS2 gamepad used to be my goto for shmups on PC, but it starts to hurt your digits after awhile. So I use this Gamestop brand Xbox 360 gamepad now, it's smaller than the stock controller and the dpad isn't as bad.
Those 8bitdo's look good, but I might be better off on an arcade stick maybe, mainly because it would be easier on the joints.
Whatever works for you and it's super important to take care of ergonomics / keeping your hands comfortable 👍
Yeah, age is a batch.
If I could I'd use those Atgames Genssis style controllers on my laptop, their cheap plastic and fragile design is offset by the fact they're super light and the buttons are responsive to the lightest touch. Accurate dpad top. Games like Forgotten Worlds or Side Arms Hyper Dyne play just fine with it.
I have an arcade stick but I got it for fighting games specifically not for shmups. I mostly use a ps4 controller for shmups
as long as the controller is precise and has no delay it is perfect for shmups, there is no motion inputs and complex movments in shmups like it is in fighting games. the reason stick was the standard over controller in the fighting games community was because of its precise inputs over a controller at a high level. however with the genre changing and the hitbox replacing the stick it sort of got replaced, and now it is seen as a legacy controller that was just used during the arcade era
i think it is the same for shmups stick is a legacy controller that isn't necessarily the standard and you can do everything as long as you are comfortable , controllers, sticks, keyboards, are all perfect, and also if you are feeling like getting out of the pack you can use a hitbox for shmups (which is the new standard in fighting games)
Thanks for the input! I've heard about hitbox style controllers gaining popularity on the fighting game community, but haven't heard them used much for shmups. I wonder if we'll see a similar change among shmup players at some point? Since hitbox combines the precision of a keyboard with the arcade feel of those buttons.
I use a NES advantage on NES titles.
DPAD for console titles....
Preffably a Saturn pad if compatible, i quite like using a Snes pad as well.
🕹
I'm able to play pad, stick, and keyboard as well. I think it's good to know how to use many forms of controllers.
For a while I mainly used pad, but I got lazy fixing pad settings to work with Touhou and old doujin SHMUPS so I just used keyboard which eventually became my preferred input. I grew up emulating games without controllers back in the day so playing on keyboard was never a problem. I currently use keyboard style controllers (Thnikk Fightboard & Haute Board b16) for console.
I only got a stick because it's just cool to have one and customize it lol
I grew up playing on keyboard as well, but once I switched over to controllers it's been hard to go back, even if only for ergonomics. I do believe it's the most precise, the same way that stick is undoubtedly the coolest 😎
I was a pad player for many years (I couldn't be as precise with a stick as I was with a d-pad) but didn't manage any clears. I had fun and to me that was the most important part, I accepted being "not good enough". Then I tried using only stick for a couple of months because I found a deal on one and thought "why not". I did about the same, or perhaps a bit worse, for a while and then I started getting clears. Turns out I play a lot more steady with a stick. With my thumb on a d-pad every twitch movement from nerves and excitement registered and I oftentimes died because I was to jittery in dense bullet patterns. When I used a stick every input had to be more deliberate, I guess? So I improved that way. Would I call one input method better than the other? No, it's all preference of course. But to me personally sticks help eliminating a lot of the fidgety movement I cause with a d-pad. :)
That's interesting, thanks for sharing! Reading all these comments makes me feel like playing on stick again at some point. Though I do feel for me it's the opposite: I'm steady on d-pad on jittery on stick :)
I'm very picky with this. I tend to play most of my shmups with an arcade stick, but, for instance, I prefer using a keyboard in Touhou, or a controller with PSX shmups. Pretty nuts.
I use my psp as a controller, it just plugs in and works unlike the tedious hassle getting my ps4 controller to connect wirelessly again is lol
The stock lever sucks on the 8BitDo stick. I don't use Sanwa parts either.
Играю на аркадном стике. Люблю ощущение аркадного кабинета у себя дома + на нем проще вводить точные инпуты, после практики
осталось освоить google translate )
@@cdriper просто я привык, что переводчик встроен у меня в браузер)
I haven't gotten super deep with shmups but so far I feel like convenience has been king. It can be hard to get yourself to play a mode you know is going to suck and whatever's readily available tends to be suitable enough for me unless it's touch screen lol. I tried playing mushihimesama futari on ultra today and I was just wondering how I'd ever be good enough to dodge the bullets not whether or not I should plug in my duakshock or get a hitbox or get an snes controller or get an arcade stick.
Also yeah probably no analog stick 😅
Totally. I made this video partly because imo there's too much emphasis put on having the "right" controller to be able to play shmups, while in my experience that's not really true. As I say in the video, I don't think it's a bad idea to experiment with input methods and find something you're most comfortable with. But at the end of the day it's the skill that makes the player, not the stick/pad/hitbox/etc.
The 8bitdo arcade joystick is a sanwa JLF clone I think, JLF is fine. I think the sega cabs use seimitsu sticks? I like the ls-32 with an upgraded spring. There are plenty of good shmup sticks, the ls-40, ls-56, ls-58 and probably the lsq-40 though i havent used that. Type of gate can make a difference I like an octagonal but ive used square. I have a brooks universal board but i've use the gp2040 ce board too which is as good if not better it also has some really good autofire options in the web configurator and it's cheap as a raspberry pi pico. Buttons theres a million of but I just use the stock sanwas they dont make that much difference to shmups IMO. Ultimately everything comes down to personal preference. I really like some games on d-pad and use an sn-30 pro which is probably my favourite for everything retro.
Hold down the button on a stick hurts the tendon on my right index finger after about 30 minutes of play.
So I have to play with a pad.
It’s really a shame because I prefer the way movement feels on a stick.😢
I know what you mean. Nowadays if I'm playing on pc and the game is all about holding the firing button (instead of having to switch attacks all the time like in, say, Cave games), I map a "toggle hold" command in JoytoKey so I can just press the button once and have my right hand rest. Doesn't work in all games but worth looking into if you happen to play on pc, since it can make the stick a viable option again.
@@hazylevels oh wow! I didn’t know about that.
Thank you so much for letting me know🙏
i think sticks are better for beat em ups and lighting games than shumps.
I use the power glove, it's so bad!
I’m at an “advantage/disadvantage” I play on my Astro city cab. I don’t have a ps4 for the m2 ports. So I play straight through or until I die. 1 cc or bust lol
Hardcore :) it would be awesome to do runs on a cab, but I don't think I could go back to a world without practice modes and save states. I have no idea how those old Japanese super plays were achieved when all they could do is full runs.
I use a stick, but right now since I’m in the middle of a big move, I’m not playing any schmups seriously! Hah! :) There’s no wrong way. Just play. That’s what I always say.
Also I’d like to add, cause why not, that I used to be super snobbish about how I played shmups. It was like, real hardware, real pcb or nothing. And what’s funny, is as soon as I started actually seriously playing and trying for 1CC runs, it’s been nothing but ps4 M2 ports and ShmupMame on a mini PC haha. And it’s been the most fun I’ve had playing video games since we closed the arcade I used to work at.
Wow, that's super interesting!! I've always wondered how those old super plays and high scores were possible, when the players had nothing but real cabs to play on. I'm not sure I could play shmups without practice modes or save states anymore.
@@hazylevels exactly! Thats kinda crazy to think about. As soon as I started using save states everything changed for the better for me. :)
PINGU!
misc❤
I play shumps with a n64 controller
What's better, wired or wireless?
I think it depends a lot on the controller and your setup. I mostly play wireless except for the Xbone controller, which clearly lags over Bluetooth on my PC.
@@hazylevels sorry I don't want to spam you with questions but it fits these kind of questions so I'd like to ask: how do you memorise the route/chain in DDP games?
Wow, that's a huge question. Personally, I'd advise against learning chains by trying to just copy what a super player does. At first, try finding small chains as you play and then see if you can start stringing them together. Stage 1 is usually very good for getting the hang of it. After giving it a go, watch some replays by decent but not godlike players, and see if you can get ideas from how they do things. Maybe not as effective but a lot more fun this way imo. I know I do some chains in kind of a weird way in DOJ but at least it's my own way.
@@hazylevels makes sense, thank you! :)
Korean levers ftw
I find I have "controller days" and "stick" days. It's weird and it would probably be better to always stick with one or the other for consistency, but on days where I'm struggling a lot I often change my input type back and forth. It may just be a placebo effect but it truly does seem to help.
Like others have said, I really love the M30 Dpad. I have that same 8bitdo stick with an LS32 that I like for Gradius games where I have to flick the stick to move down just a pixel or two, and I have a Qanba Q4raf with an LS56 that I like for Cave stuff because there's lots of spring tension that I feel helps me micrododge more accurately.
« Just don’t use the analog stick » : why would that be ? I see a lot of fuss in this community about analog being bad, but I have yet to see any proof of this. I got a lot shit thrown at me in some discord for using this input method (in PS4), but unless they can do the sort of pixel precise placements I can do in Darius games it’s hard to give credit to their opinion 😂
@@Prickly_Angler wow, that's very intriguing. I didn't mean to insult anyone using analog stick, I've just always felt like d-pad is more precise for retro 2d action games. I guess I should check my assumptions. Do you feel like there's an advantage to analog in shmups or is it just something you're accustomed to?
@@hazylevels It's alright, it's a very common opinion and I'm very used to getting bad rap for it haha. I can't say it's definetely more precise than other input methods, just that it works much better for me than the PS4 d-pad. The thing is my left hand is partially disabled so I just take whatever's comfier for me in terms of inputs. First question I always have to ask myself before playing a game (or even nitpicking about input methods) is: "can I even play this ?". When I was a kid my first console was the Game Cube, so naturally I thought about Wii, but didn't go for it in the end because it's just implayable for me, same thing with as any real-time games that are played on the keyboard. I can't just buy any game and expect it'll work for me. I can't play well on most d-pads, but some like the one on the Saturn pad work great for me. I don't like home sticks because they take so much place (I live in 15 square meters), are really expensive for nothing, and there's no good grip for me. I see it a bit as a "snobbish" thing since the DS4 does more than the job like you say. I like playing on cabinets, and do very fine on those (not exactly the same muscle memory as what I have at home but I've done a few 1CCs on cab).
As for analog I think it really depends on how the developpers implement it in terms of dead zone. M2 is the best for this imo, ACA has a higher dead zone but it's alright for me. On the Capcom Arcade Stadium the dead zone is really high, enough that I didn't want to push the game further after clearing the first loop. The Psikyo ports however have a very limited deadzone, enough that I often hit diagonals when wanting to hit cardinals : makes it unplayable. Also depends on the joystick itself : tried DS4 on Gradius V and it was horrible to me, but I know some like it. There's a few other players that have been using analog, if my memory doesn't fail me I can think of Miclus, Omkol, and skalt711 that have used it/say it was alright on some of their runs.
In any case with games that have good analog support I have never felt I could not do an input because of the input method itself (for my skill level at least)
Thanks for taking the time to write, this was very enlightening!