Also one solution i will also say is remove sunder from lascannons. They can already be taken in large quantities for fairly cheap, they dont need that extra re roll as well.
Yeah the game is written as if tanks have a lot more firepower and durability so need all these additional restrictions relative to infantry. Plus you’re paying silly points which you’ll never make back in terms of damage. I think they assume that being immune to “line” infantry units like boltguns in the front arc that this amounts to a huge advantage. But boltguns and “line” infantry are just objective tokens in the game and isn’t where most of the army damage is. Plus Hull points should be much higher or removed. Dreadnoughts have seven wounds but a predator has three. Your tanks are more likely to be hull pointed to death than for the damage table to come into effect. The damage table is a relic from 3rd edition where your marine army was thirty guys with a single lascannon….
The core problem is that at the start of 3rd edition, AV14 was a serious thing to deal with. But now people build armies knowing they might have to deal with a spartan or whatever. Remember, back then 99% of tactical squads had a missile launcher and a flamer. Devastator squads had a mix of weapons. Not anymore. Doubly so in Heresy, where the game doesn't have horde armies to fight. And now we need to actually balance stuff, so that we don't have alphastrikes on turn one wiping out vehicles, but we also don't have these lolable monstrous creatures who refuse to die.
Completely agree, play nothing by 2nd edition with a big group of friends. Everything is narrative, everything goes wrong, it's heaps better than the other editions I've played.
Completely agree, play nothing by 2nd edition with a big group of friends. Everything is narrative, everything goes wrong, it's heaps better than the other editions I've played.
My friend and I increased all hull points by 50%, removed the EXPLODES result from the table, replacing with the super heavy style "lose an additional d3 hull points" and have found it to be pretty decent. Oh and remove sunder from lascannons. Says a lot when you have to change so much with friends to make the game feel right
Suggestions of the top of my head: - Each gunner of a vehicle can pick a legal target in his vision arc. - Vehicles can fire all weapons regardless of it´s speed with the exception of moving at it´s top speed. Top speed only allows defensive weapons to be fired (e.g: bolters, heavy bolters, etc.). - Weapons in the game receive traits: Light Anti-Tank (e.g. Autocannon) & Anti-Tank (e.g. Lascannon). If the weapon doesn´t have the Light Anti-Tank or Anti-Tank trait then it can´t damage a vehicle. - Explode results cause the loss of multiple hull points instead of destroying a vehicle automatically. - Turn all mechanical units in the game into vehicles. This way dreadnoughts stop being obnoxious. Also strip the force fields from dreadnoughts. When a giant vehicle can´t have enough space on it´s hull to mount a device granting it an invulnerable save than the tiny frame of a dreadnought can´t either.
I think the problem here is (as with so many other things), the people writing the rules probably don't even see or won't acknowledge that there's problems and so they most likely won't do anything to change/fix these issues.
I agree with your assessment. This is clearly a design choice they've made. Anyone who's been a fan of this game for a decade or more will know GeeDubs suffers from this kind of behaviour. They think something is popular or is just "how things should be done" with no real critical thought.
For example, choices like 'Eldar can't have Las guns because imperials have them' I get that it help them creatively, but it results in scenarios where you have units like Eldar Guardians who are effectively minutemen conscripts welding what are effectively alien smgs wearing light armour. It doesn't make a lot of sense. The Eldar are supposed to be very conservative when it comes to spending the lives of their men, yet their primary troops choice is a paper thin unit with 0 range. I always wished they could be given 30" las guns so they could sit back and shoot.
@@jamesespinosa690they must do though, they fixed this in 8th. Obviously the game changed a lot for the worse in other ways, but they did fix this. Just give the vehicle wounds and armour saves. Give it different toughnesses on different facings if you like, but just give it the same core stats as everything else.
This has been the GW way for decades. Remember how Jervis made very expensive T3 W1 AS5+ units and thought that those were perfectly fine? The developers play a different game than us.
The vehicles have problems, but is making their rules more like 40k really the way? Anyway, wouldnt the explosion damage come from the internal systems and machinery more so than their guns? Actually big guns should have more strength, maybe up to str 12 for the bigger cannons on stuff like the kratos.
I'm going to try removing the damage table on my next game. This sounds fun because I *love* painting vehicles, but it's painful how many downsides there are. I'm also not happy with the limitations on movement and firing--I could see taking a to-hit penalty for moving, but they feel convoluted and punishing for the investment. Just my two cents.
To fix vehicles, all they need to do is make vehicle squadrons work like dreadnought talons, (they can all split off and act as their own units), remove sunder from lascannons, and if you roll a 1 on the damage table you “hit non vital systems” and nothing happens.
Another problem really is that heavy weapons are so easy to get everywhere and so cheap. There was this damage table system in 2ed 40k and it was a lot more cinematic. Back then a marine was 30pts and a lascannon was 45. Now a marine is 10 to 15 and a lascannon is 15. Predators and land raiders back then we're 90 and 220 Now you see the problem. Infantry has gone down insane levels of pts and tanks have stayed the same or gone up! You'd fix a lot by saying non vehicle heavy weapons need to spend a turn reloading. That'd cut their effectiveness in half which is about right.
Really liked your vehicle breakdown, and I agree 100% with what you're saying. I play Iron Hands, and I LOVE VEHICLES. But. I've been on the tough luck side of the vehicle damage table or helpless to return fire, and it just feels helpless sometimes running vehicles. I don't want to be "that player" that's brings lots of dreads because their so good and get around these shortfalls. I love vehicles, and my list are almost always 40-50% vehicles in points. Ya get rid of or SEVERLY alter the damage table. Everyone got over dreadnoughts being so strong and tough, they can get over not instantly exploding my 400 pt modle on a lucky 6 on turn 1. Give my vehicle their own reaction list. I believe doing these 2 things will make them feel like a real tank finally, and you will see way more vehicles on the tabletop. Not just Spartans, LR, and rhinos to get my all infantry list across the board. Variety in armies that you wouldn't expect is so much fun. Great video man, keep it up 👍 cheers.
Hi, in my opinion problem are not the vehicules but the Dreadnoughts. We have been playing with 1.0 Dreadnoughts profile/rules and they are way more balanced that way. Also remove Sunder from lascannons, use Panoptica, and tanks do not suffer from comparaison with Dreads anymore.
The thing is, even before 1.0, back in 5th, 6th and 7th, vehicles still suffered from the same problems. A LOT of people didn't notice for some reason. But the dreadnoughts being super OP is now what really makes it obvious for non tread head players.
The contrast shows both sides IMHO - Dreads carry the same kind of firepower, but are much more survivable. Dreads are great for killing tanks, and tanks are bad for killing them.
@@jamesespinosa690Part of immersion too is vehicles, even mighty or expensive ones becoming immobilized, mobility kills are incredibly common and very immersive if done well. The problem isn't the idea of a damage table, the problem is all the garbage they introduced in 2.0 like reactions and dreads just being utterly broken. Also more than a few dreads in a army always looks/looked retarded. It's one of the sillier looking aspects of legions imperialis as well, seeing like 8 dreadnoughts hanging out within a few feet of one another is alway a bit of a head scratcher.
I feel like vehicles should get a 4+ fnp against any shot that is below strength X or AP value X just to discourage pot shots. Unloaded at a tank with anti armour? Lascannons, autocannons, meltas or whatever, sure, makes sense, its a purpose designed anti tank calibre weapon. Against assault cannons, heavy bolters, stuff that can get lucky and strip hull points, on a 4+ it just gets ignored. Is it strong? Yes. Does it fix the whole issue? Definitely not, but at least now you're less likely to see that squad of plebs with assault cannons or autocannons just glance your expensive kit to death while grinning all game.
To be perfectly fair the monstrous creature dreadnought had been a thing since WH40k 3rd edition in form of Eldar Wraightlord with T8 and W3 if memory serves.
Vehicles don’t get armor saves? Now that is genuinely mind numbing. I haven’t got a game cause my store is mostly 40k and sigmar, but i can’t believe vehicles have no armor.
Sunder on lasscanon and being str 9 not 8 is too much. Everyone in my city is running 10-20 Lasscannons. It is disgusting. I refuse to play most of them outright. Also, how the hell default sicaran is so weak compared to punisher with the same cost?
The primary problem is that a 10-man Lascannon squad with an Artificer sergeant is 285 points. That's dirt cheap for that level of firepower. Stick something with a Cognis Signum with them for BS5 and you're deleting pretty much any unit you point it at.
Vehicle armor values was always a problem. Same with firing arcs. Degrading profile, while not perfect, was the best option for armor. The only better option would be dual profiles for weapons: one against infantry and one vs armor
so i play battlefield 1 and imo the way tanks work there is awesome. so obviosly you cant kill a tank, nor disable them or damage a weapon in one shot. what you obviously need to do is damage it enough to make those things happen. so lets say a tank has 10hp, to disable a weapon you need to remove 50%-60% of hp and roll 4+ or 5+ for a weapon to be damaged, at 80% it cant move and you have to roll same odds and 90% its immobilised automaticly since its taken so much damage but it can still be saved by a techmarine or maybe a unique reaction to regain 1-2 hp and being able to move again(maybe buff the reaction by a techmarine). talking about explosions i think same should be as bf1, where smaller vehicles kind of instant kill anyone close to a tank maybe within 1 inch and within 6 you have to roll for damage then armour save and for bigger explostion (look at behemoths being destroyed on BF1) kind of kill anyone within a certain radius.
I think a cool idea would be vehicles can only suffer the explodes result if hit in the rear as this is where a lot of the exhausts are and an easy route to the engine.
I like the idea of the armour penetration roles so you can’t harm them with weaker weapons, but the damage table does make them pathetic. With vehicles now being the same or less aggression as other units they are a bit crap. So dropping the damage table (or making it like supers heavies for everyone) would be the best way to fix it.
The game solution is to probably remove hull points. The damage table harkens back to a time before hull points were a thing and it really matched how vehicles die in combat with repeated hits destroying guns, sights, mobility, and in some cases catastrophic kills. The reality is a glancing hit shouldn't mean anything. The other issue though is a question oh how are you setting up your board. Most games simply don't care about a vehicles better mobility. The objectives are all relatively close and centralized. Play a game where you play with the table 48" across and 72" deep though and suddenly that movement matters. Set up small clusters of terrain and suddenly anything not going flat out gets caught in the open and dies. Planet bowling ball is a bad idea but every battlefield looking like stalingrad is equally bad.
This reminds me of the vehicle complaints from 3rd ed 40k through 7th ed 40k. A lot of the same problems as what is noted here, and it just made vehicles in general demonstrably weaker than anything else in the army. Although the hard core part of me misses these rules, any time I don't have to have my tank reduced down to a moving box is much appreciated.
Personally if I were King, I would remove sunder off Lascannons. I would also increase the cover save from ruins back from 5+ to 4+. and then finally make all dreadnought talons share a 0-1 option. I think these changes don't uproot any current game mechanics too badly so id see how that would play for a few Months. Then after if its still a problem potentially give vehicle's a 4+ or 3+ armour save as well as bring the armour save of dreadnoughts down. I think that's a fair road map for bringing vehicles back in line. Or just use all your Predators as counts as steam tanks in The Old World xD
My main gripe with my land raider was that, it didn't seem really to scale with the models. Placing a 30k marine besides it, i couldn't see how the land raider could fit an entire squad. Weren't they also used for transporting termie's? I can't see even one of them fitting. 40k models definitely would not be able to crawl into it. Compared to the space marine characters the Landraider i got, though neat looking tank, feels like a mini tank. I haven't seen a comparison with IG models, but I think it would be hard to even fit 10 IG soldiers in that. Just personal, i would have loved if I could have actually placed an entire squad into them. - Kitbashing, customization purposes and stuff. Since I don't really play tabletop.
Withdraw reaction in the movement phase does this, plus you can then Evade in the shooting phase. If you don’t want to burn your reactions, vehicles have a movement characteristic and can pivot for free.
You could also entertain the idea of the same damage table for Dreads. I do think taking tbe damage table away from vehicles also solves the sunder issue
They had that in 1st Ed, but then the mechanicum robots were to strong as they were monstrous creatures and not vehicles. And instead of fixing that somehow, they just made all walkers monster.
Vehicles frankly just need survivability and access to reactions. Whichever way they do it, that's great, but they need something. A las cannon heavy weapon squad reliably can kill an entire squadron of predators in one volley.
No, reactions just need to stop existing. All of these changes people want to make is just a race to the bottom trying to fix shitty design instead of just asking "am i putting makeup on a corpse?"
Dreadnoughts should be vehicles like 1.0, all this shit started with 2.0 being fan level writing by someone obsessed with dreadnoughts and terminators and who apparently hates template weapons.
Rules as written, vehicles are the last thing I'm buying. They were hot to push out lovely models ahead of useful infantry units hurts my head. I mean, it's always a big feels bad when it comes to GW releases if you rationally look at mist giant box sets. The Spartan in the darkness bix really should have been a heavy weapon kit/ special weapons kit or some rhinos. Id like to own a cubic meter of vehicles yet i KNOW they will always be a let down by the time i get them on a table. They need more wounds for the points and different classes of explosions for battle vehicles vs transports. Vehicle tables are the last reminder that there was a RPG set the grim dark future.
Tanks are only bad because everyone is going to take at least one ten man lascannon squad. I do not understand why special weapons and heavy weapons can only be taken in dedicated squads. “Oh because heresy is supposed to be this epic scale and those assets moved as dedicated units” is an insufficient explanation. Heresy is the exact same scale as 40k. No army in the world past, present, or far future is going to send 10 dudes out with only anti-armor weapons without any organic support weapons. A squad of all flamers is dumb. These weapons should be options to enhance tactical squads and assault squads.
Centreline weapons are stupid, they should have a 45 degree front facing fire arc, each turn is supposed to represents a snapshot of a moment, things are still moving
I know that you said that you were focusing on rules for this video, but I believe that the problem with vehicles is more meta than core rules. Vehicles don't have saves because the majority of the weapons in the game can't hurt them. That is a perfectly fine mechanic, presuming that the significant majority of weapons actually on the table can't hurt them. This is absolutely not true in this edition. The best weapons for killing tanks are the same weapons that best kill terminators and dreadnoughts, so there is a huge driver to take as many of them as possible. They are also pointed very affordably in every single army and are incredibly easy to spam. An infantry plasma gun, something best suited to killing medium armor infantry, costs the same number of points as an infantry lascannon, which is well-suited to killing absolutely everything. Factor in that many anti-tank weapons got significantly better this edition, and it's obvious that this would be the result. If there were any incentive to not take heavy weapons (like, say, anything above S8 or with AP1 giving a penalty to shooting infantry to represent the weapon being cumbersome), I don't think there would be a problem at all. Vehicles seem to be plenty durable this edition so long as the armies at play don't look like they had a couple million dollars to burn at a Soviet bunker at the end of the Cold War. A ten-man lascannon squad may have a very good chance of deleting a vehicle a turn, but it is only one vehicle. A couple heavy support squads and a half-dozen dreadnoughts can wipe an armored column.
Just bad writing for the most $xpensive wargame on earth. A crewman sitting in a relatively safe seat, inside an armored vehicle. Is going to be able to concentrate more and deliver overwatch/reactionary fire, a lot better then an in-the-field grunt who might need to shout, duck and take cover whilst all explosions go off.
The lucky shot that passes right through is represented by the glancing hit that just takes a hullpoint off. Penetrating hits are hits that have done something noticeable to the vehicle. The main issue tanks have is the over abundance of heavy weapons in the game. There are easy fixes, bring back upgrades like the old spaced armour, which could add a hull point. Alabrative armour which could up your armour value by a point, give more access to flare shields. And let vehicles use reactions more, to discourage incoming fire in the first place. Getting rid of the damage table takes a lot of fun detail out of the game.
I disagree. A glancing hit is just tha, a glancing hit. It's actually fairly common for piercing shots to go straight through without hitting anything immediately vital to the operation of the vehicle.
The thing is that Horus Heresy 1 and 2 have different strengths and weaknesses. Horus Heresy 2 has under powered vehicles, too strong Dreads and Lascannons being busted and Thousand Sons are unplayable. Having said that, HH1 had problems as well: Iron Warriors being incredibly overpowered with Iron Fire (I believe it was called), the sheer amount of BS that Thousand Sons was capable of and Plasma being so incredibly good it was spammed just as much as Lascannons are now.
Heresy 1.0 was pretty annoying to play honestly. It was just huge weapons clearing swathed of marines off the board. This has gone too far the other way.
@@arcanuke3294It's superior in every way, i mean look at how far we've fallen, the entire thrust of the video is "this game so shit, instead of fixing dreadnoughts, let's remove the vehicle damage table." Here's the reality, barely anyone here plays heresy anymore because its so bad skimmers can't even move over enemy models. It's so so so much worse than 1.0.
Also one solution i will also say is remove sunder from lascannons. They can already be taken in large quantities for fairly cheap, they dont need that extra re roll as well.
Yeah the game is written as if tanks have a lot more firepower and durability so need all these additional restrictions relative to infantry. Plus you’re paying silly points which you’ll never make back in terms of damage.
I think they assume that being immune to “line” infantry units like boltguns in the front arc that this amounts to a huge advantage. But boltguns and “line” infantry are just objective tokens in the game and isn’t where most of the army damage is.
Plus Hull points should be much higher or removed. Dreadnoughts have seven wounds but a predator has three. Your tanks are more likely to be hull pointed to death than for the damage table to come into effect.
The damage table is a relic from 3rd edition where your marine army was thirty guys with a single lascannon….
The core problem is that at the start of 3rd edition, AV14 was a serious thing to deal with. But now people build armies knowing they might have to deal with a spartan or whatever.
Remember, back then 99% of tactical squads had a missile launcher and a flamer. Devastator squads had a mix of weapons.
Not anymore. Doubly so in Heresy, where the game doesn't have horde armies to fight.
And now we need to actually balance stuff, so that we don't have alphastrikes on turn one wiping out vehicles, but we also don't have these lolable monstrous creatures who refuse to die.
The takeaway, 2nd ed 40k is still the best (where all vehicles had their own armour values and damage tables, including dreadnoughts etc)
Completely agree, play nothing by 2nd edition with a big group of friends. Everything is narrative, everything goes wrong, it's heaps better than the other editions I've played.
Completely agree, play nothing by 2nd edition with a big group of friends. Everything is narrative, everything goes wrong, it's heaps better than the other editions I've played.
My friend and I increased all hull points by 50%, removed the EXPLODES result from the table, replacing with the super heavy style "lose an additional d3 hull points" and have found it to be pretty decent. Oh and remove sunder from lascannons.
Says a lot when you have to change so much with friends to make the game feel right
Suggestions of the top of my head:
- Each gunner of a vehicle can pick a legal target in his vision arc.
- Vehicles can fire all weapons regardless of it´s speed with the exception of moving at it´s top speed. Top speed only allows defensive weapons to be fired (e.g: bolters, heavy bolters, etc.).
- Weapons in the game receive traits: Light Anti-Tank (e.g. Autocannon) & Anti-Tank (e.g. Lascannon). If the weapon doesn´t have the Light Anti-Tank or Anti-Tank trait then it can´t damage a vehicle.
- Explode results cause the loss of multiple hull points instead of destroying a vehicle automatically.
- Turn all mechanical units in the game into vehicles. This way dreadnoughts stop being obnoxious. Also strip the force fields from dreadnoughts. When a giant vehicle can´t have enough space on it´s hull to mount a device granting it an invulnerable save than the tiny frame of a dreadnought can´t either.
I think the problem here is (as with so many other things), the people writing the rules probably don't even see or won't acknowledge that there's problems and so they most likely won't do anything to change/fix these issues.
I agree with your assessment. This is clearly a design choice they've made. Anyone who's been a fan of this game for a decade or more will know GeeDubs suffers from this kind of behaviour. They think something is popular or is just "how things should be done" with no real critical thought.
For example, choices like 'Eldar can't have Las guns because imperials have them'
I get that it help them creatively, but it results in scenarios where you have units like Eldar Guardians who are effectively minutemen conscripts welding what are effectively alien smgs wearing light armour. It doesn't make a lot of sense. The Eldar are supposed to be very conservative when it comes to spending the lives of their men, yet their primary troops choice is a paper thin unit with 0 range. I always wished they could be given 30" las guns so they could sit back and shoot.
@@jamesespinosa690they must do though, they fixed this in 8th. Obviously the game changed a lot for the worse in other ways, but they did fix this. Just give the vehicle wounds and armour saves. Give it different toughnesses on different facings if you like, but just give it the same core stats as everything else.
Many players also take the word of GW as gospel and wont consider changing rules either which makes the problem even worse.
This has been the GW way for decades. Remember how Jervis made very expensive T3 W1 AS5+ units and thought that those were perfectly fine?
The developers play a different game than us.
Great vid. It's easy to complain but you come with Ideas and solutions. It's kinda rare sadly in todays society.
I don't mind current firing arcs, survivability is a pain though
The vehicles have problems, but is making their rules more like 40k really the way?
Anyway, wouldnt the explosion damage come from the internal systems and machinery more so than their guns? Actually big guns should have more strength, maybe up to str 12 for the bigger cannons on stuff like the kratos.
I'm going to try removing the damage table on my next game. This sounds fun because I *love* painting vehicles, but it's painful how many downsides there are.
I'm also not happy with the limitations on movement and firing--I could see taking a to-hit penalty for moving, but they feel convoluted and punishing for the investment. Just my two cents.
vehicles are designed to move and shoot, thats the point of such a weapon platform
To fix vehicles, all they need to do is make vehicle squadrons work like dreadnought talons, (they can all split off and act as their own units), remove sunder from lascannons, and if you roll a 1 on the damage table you “hit non vital systems” and nothing happens.
Another problem really is that heavy weapons are so easy to get everywhere and so cheap.
There was this damage table system in 2ed 40k and it was a lot more cinematic. Back then a marine was 30pts and a lascannon was 45.
Now a marine is 10 to 15 and a lascannon is 15.
Predators and land raiders back then we're 90 and 220
Now you see the problem. Infantry has gone down insane levels of pts and tanks have stayed the same or gone up!
You'd fix a lot by saying non vehicle heavy weapons need to spend a turn reloading. That'd cut their effectiveness in half which is about right.
Really liked your vehicle breakdown, and I agree 100% with what you're saying. I play Iron Hands, and I LOVE VEHICLES. But. I've been on the tough luck side of the vehicle damage table or helpless to return fire, and it just feels helpless sometimes running vehicles. I don't want to be "that player" that's brings lots of dreads because their so good and get around these shortfalls. I love vehicles, and my list are almost always 40-50% vehicles in points. Ya get rid of or SEVERLY alter the damage table. Everyone got over dreadnoughts being so strong and tough, they can get over not instantly exploding my 400 pt modle on a lucky 6 on turn 1. Give my vehicle their own reaction list. I believe doing these 2 things will make them feel like a real tank finally, and you will see way more vehicles on the tabletop. Not just Spartans, LR, and rhinos to get my all infantry list across the board. Variety in armies that you wouldn't expect is so much fun. Great video man, keep it up 👍 cheers.
I’ve convinced my group to just play the red book version. (7th)
after couple of games our group did the same
@@Krystus Same here !
What I recommend people do is. Abandon 2.0. Go back to 1.0. And relieve the golden age!!
Yeah, I'd definitely skip some in the new units to go back and play that instead.
I love the idea of playing without the vehicle damage table
It really boosts vehicle performance in a world of sundering and gravis weapons.
Hi, in my opinion problem are not the vehicules but the Dreadnoughts. We have been playing with 1.0 Dreadnoughts profile/rules and they are way more balanced that way. Also remove Sunder from lascannons, use Panoptica, and tanks do not suffer from comparaison with Dreads anymore.
The thing is, even before 1.0, back in 5th, 6th and 7th, vehicles still suffered from the same problems. A LOT of people didn't notice for some reason. But the dreadnoughts being super OP is now what really makes it obvious for non tread head players.
The contrast shows both sides IMHO - Dreads carry the same kind of firepower, but are much more survivable. Dreads are great for killing tanks, and tanks are bad for killing them.
@@jamesespinosa690Part of immersion too is vehicles, even mighty or expensive ones becoming immobilized, mobility kills are incredibly common and very immersive if done well. The problem isn't the idea of a damage table, the problem is all the garbage they introduced in 2.0 like reactions and dreads just being utterly broken. Also more than a few dreads in a army always looks/looked retarded. It's one of the sillier looking aspects of legions imperialis as well, seeing like 8 dreadnoughts hanging out within a few feet of one another is alway a bit of a head scratcher.
I feel like vehicles should get a 4+ fnp against any shot that is below strength X or AP value X just to discourage pot shots. Unloaded at a tank with anti armour? Lascannons, autocannons, meltas or whatever, sure, makes sense, its a purpose designed anti tank calibre weapon.
Against assault cannons, heavy bolters, stuff that can get lucky and strip hull points, on a 4+ it just gets ignored. Is it strong? Yes. Does it fix the whole issue? Definitely not, but at least now you're less likely to see that squad of plebs with assault cannons or autocannons just glance your expensive kit to death while grinning all game.
Thank you
To be perfectly fair the monstrous creature dreadnought had been a thing since WH40k 3rd edition in form of Eldar Wraightlord with T8 and W3 if memory serves.
You make some good points Mac.
Yeah. Tanks have loooads of issues at present. I may well ask my friends if we can drop the damage table. Great idea dude.
Vehicles don’t get armor saves?
Now that is genuinely mind numbing.
I haven’t got a game cause my store is mostly 40k and sigmar, but i can’t believe vehicles have no armor.
Sunder on lasscanon and being str 9 not 8 is too much. Everyone in my city is running 10-20 Lasscannons. It is disgusting. I refuse to play most of them outright. Also, how the hell default sicaran is so weak compared to punisher with the same cost?
The primary problem is that a 10-man Lascannon squad with an Artificer sergeant is 285 points. That's dirt cheap for that level of firepower. Stick something with a Cognis Signum with them for BS5 and you're deleting pretty much any unit you point it at.
Vehicle armor values was always a problem. Same with firing arcs. Degrading profile, while not perfect, was the best option for armor. The only better option would be dual profiles for weapons: one against infantry and one vs armor
so i play battlefield 1 and imo the way tanks work there is awesome. so obviosly you cant kill a tank, nor disable them or damage a weapon in one shot. what you obviously need to do is damage it enough to make those things happen. so lets say a tank has 10hp, to disable a weapon you need to remove 50%-60% of hp and roll 4+ or 5+ for a weapon to be damaged, at 80% it cant move and you have to roll same odds and 90% its immobilised automaticly since its taken so much damage but it can still be saved by a techmarine or maybe a unique reaction to regain 1-2 hp and being able to move again(maybe buff the reaction by a techmarine). talking about explosions i think same should be as bf1, where smaller vehicles kind of instant kill anyone close to a tank maybe within 1 inch and within 6 you have to roll for damage then armour save and for bigger explostion (look at behemoths being destroyed on BF1) kind of kill anyone within a certain radius.
I think a cool idea would be vehicles can only suffer the explodes result if hit in the rear as this is where a lot of the exhausts are and an easy route to the engine.
I like the idea of the armour penetration roles so you can’t harm them with weaker weapons, but the damage table does make them pathetic. With vehicles now being the same or less aggression as other units they are a bit crap. So dropping the damage table (or making it like supers heavies for everyone) would be the best way to fix it.
The game solution is to probably remove hull points. The damage table harkens back to a time before hull points were a thing and it really matched how vehicles die in combat with repeated hits destroying guns, sights, mobility, and in some cases catastrophic kills. The reality is a glancing hit shouldn't mean anything.
The other issue though is a question oh how are you setting up your board. Most games simply don't care about a vehicles better mobility. The objectives are all relatively close and centralized. Play a game where you play with the table 48" across and 72" deep though and suddenly that movement matters. Set up small clusters of terrain and suddenly anything not going flat out gets caught in the open and dies. Planet bowling ball is a bad idea but every battlefield looking like stalingrad is equally bad.
This reminds me of the vehicle complaints from 3rd ed 40k through 7th ed 40k. A lot of the same problems as what is noted here, and it just made vehicles in general demonstrably weaker than anything else in the army. Although the hard core part of me misses these rules, any time I don't have to have my tank reduced down to a moving box is much appreciated.
You're damn right it does; none of em fit together!
Personally if I were King, I would remove sunder off Lascannons. I would also increase the cover save from ruins back from 5+ to 4+. and then finally make all dreadnought talons share a 0-1 option. I think these changes don't uproot any current game mechanics too badly so id see how that would play for a few Months. Then after if its still a problem potentially give vehicle's a 4+ or 3+ armour save as well as bring the armour save of dreadnoughts down. I think that's a fair road map for bringing vehicles back in line.
Or just use all your Predators as counts as steam tanks in The Old World xD
My main gripe with my land raider was that, it didn't seem really to scale with the models. Placing a 30k marine besides it, i couldn't see how the land raider could fit an entire squad.
Weren't they also used for transporting termie's? I can't see even one of them fitting. 40k models definitely would not be able to crawl into it. Compared to the space marine characters the Landraider i got, though neat looking tank, feels like a mini tank. I haven't seen a comparison with IG models, but I think it would be hard to even fit 10 IG soldiers in that.
Just personal, i would have loved if I could have actually placed an entire squad into them. - Kitbashing, customization purposes and stuff.
Since I don't really play tabletop.
The scale creep in the past couple years has really exacerbated this
Vehicle specific Reaction: Align Armour to Threat.
Allow the vehicle to turn up to 90' towards the unit targeting it.
Withdraw reaction in the movement phase does this, plus you can then Evade in the shooting phase.
If you don’t want to burn your reactions, vehicles have a movement characteristic and can pivot for free.
Currently you take a flare shield 14 armor vehicle or expect a lesser vehicle to be a waste of points.
Yeah the vehicle damage table has to go, or at least be completely overhauled. Lazy writing from GW.
I mean, it's same before GW started to treat tanks as big infantry in 40k.
You could also entertain the idea of the same damage table for Dreads. I do think taking tbe damage table away from vehicles also solves the sunder issue
They had that in 1st Ed, but then the mechanicum robots were to strong as they were monstrous creatures and not vehicles. And instead of fixing that somehow, they just made all walkers monster.
Vehicles frankly just need survivability and access to reactions. Whichever way they do it, that's great, but they need something. A las cannon heavy weapon squad reliably can kill an entire squadron of predators in one volley.
No, reactions just need to stop existing. All of these changes people want to make is just a race to the bottom trying to fix shitty design instead of just asking "am i putting makeup on a corpse?"
Your explanation of "that's luck" shots is the point of glancing hits, isn't it?
Dreadnoughts should have a damage table and be unable to react at all. Or something like that. They need the nerf
I agree but lascannons need toning down still
Dreadnoughts should be vehicles like 1.0, all this shit started with 2.0 being fan level writing by someone obsessed with dreadnoughts and terminators and who apparently hates template weapons.
I wouldve thought it would be no one is playing horus heresy but here we are
Rules as written, vehicles are the last thing I'm buying. They were hot to push out lovely models ahead of useful infantry units hurts my head. I mean, it's always a big feels bad when it comes to GW releases if you rationally look at mist giant box sets. The Spartan in the darkness bix really should have been a heavy weapon kit/ special weapons kit or some rhinos. Id like to own a cubic meter of vehicles yet i KNOW they will always be a let down by the time i get them on a table. They need more wounds for the points and different classes of explosions for battle vehicles vs transports. Vehicle tables are the last reminder that there was a RPG set the grim dark future.
Tanks are only bad because everyone is going to take at least one ten man lascannon squad.
I do not understand why special weapons and heavy weapons can only be taken in dedicated squads.
“Oh because heresy is supposed to be this epic scale and those assets moved as dedicated units” is an insufficient explanation. Heresy is the exact same scale as 40k.
No army in the world past, present, or far future is going to send 10 dudes out with only anti-armor weapons without any organic support weapons. A squad of all flamers is dumb.
These weapons should be options to enhance tactical squads and assault squads.
i'm still waiting to see what the problem is.
Are you playing One Page Rules yet?
Centreline weapons are stupid, they should have a 45 degree front facing fire arc, each turn is supposed to represents a snapshot of a moment, things are still moving
And you are not mention the in-famous Rite of War Armoured Spearhead where your Predators are not Line.
As time goes on the less I enjoy HH2.0
It's awful.
While i understand, That's what happens to almost all games lol.
There's about 4 people playing panoptica maybe they will play you
I know that you said that you were focusing on rules for this video, but I believe that the problem with vehicles is more meta than core rules. Vehicles don't have saves because the majority of the weapons in the game can't hurt them. That is a perfectly fine mechanic, presuming that the significant majority of weapons actually on the table can't hurt them. This is absolutely not true in this edition. The best weapons for killing tanks are the same weapons that best kill terminators and dreadnoughts, so there is a huge driver to take as many of them as possible. They are also pointed very affordably in every single army and are incredibly easy to spam. An infantry plasma gun, something best suited to killing medium armor infantry, costs the same number of points as an infantry lascannon, which is well-suited to killing absolutely everything. Factor in that many anti-tank weapons got significantly better this edition, and it's obvious that this would be the result.
If there were any incentive to not take heavy weapons (like, say, anything above S8 or with AP1 giving a penalty to shooting infantry to represent the weapon being cumbersome), I don't think there would be a problem at all. Vehicles seem to be plenty durable this edition so long as the armies at play don't look like they had a couple million dollars to burn at a Soviet bunker at the end of the Cold War. A ten-man lascannon squad may have a very good chance of deleting a vehicle a turn, but it is only one vehicle. A couple heavy support squads and a half-dozen dreadnoughts can wipe an armored column.
yes make it less convoluted!
Just bad writing for the most $xpensive wargame on earth. A crewman sitting in a relatively safe seat, inside an armored vehicle. Is going to be able to concentrate more and deliver overwatch/reactionary fire, a lot better then an in-the-field grunt who might need to shout, duck and take cover whilst all explosions go off.
The lucky shot that passes right through is represented by the glancing hit that just takes a hullpoint off. Penetrating hits are hits that have done something noticeable to the vehicle. The main issue tanks have is the over abundance of heavy weapons in the game. There are easy fixes, bring back upgrades like the old spaced armour, which could add a hull point. Alabrative armour which could up your armour value by a point, give more access to flare shields. And let vehicles use reactions more, to discourage incoming fire in the first place. Getting rid of the damage table takes a lot of fun detail out of the game.
I disagree. A glancing hit is just tha, a glancing hit. It's actually fairly common for piercing shots to go straight through without hitting anything immediately vital to the operation of the vehicle.
The poll was rigged, recount
Morning
Just play 1.0, 2.0 is so much worse.
This works if you like playing against yourself
Good luck finding those three players worldwide
The thing is that Horus Heresy 1 and 2 have different strengths and weaknesses. Horus Heresy 2 has under powered vehicles, too strong Dreads and Lascannons being busted and Thousand Sons are unplayable. Having said that, HH1 had problems as well: Iron Warriors being incredibly overpowered with Iron Fire (I believe it was called), the sheer amount of BS that Thousand Sons was capable of and Plasma being so incredibly good it was spammed just as much as Lascannons are now.
Heresy 1.0 was pretty annoying to play honestly. It was just huge weapons clearing swathed of marines off the board. This has gone too far the other way.
@@arcanuke3294It's superior in every way, i mean look at how far we've fallen, the entire thrust of the video is "this game so shit, instead of fixing dreadnoughts, let's remove the vehicle damage table." Here's the reality, barely anyone here plays heresy anymore because its so bad skimmers can't even move over enemy models. It's so so so much worse than 1.0.
22:56 did he say “Al-Qaeda spam”?
You’ve never been in an armored vehicle that has taken a direct hit and survived and it shows
i'm still waiting to see what the problem is.
I think the problem is he wants the sicaran to be playable but it’s bad