This game made me build a gaming table before I played it so I could leave it set up. About to start it. If it's too complex, I'm not afraid to do a bit of redesigning. The map and components are too good to waste. I'm in the process of redesigning Successors, which had a similar problem. There is an online website that will run the bots for you, but I don't use solo rules.
First of all, that's very cool that you're going for this redesigning. I appreciate and probably even admiring that. I would love to see your redesign for Successors 4th edition since this is a game that left my collection. But how far will you go for redesigning? And then playtesting making sure it's balanced? Still fun? I will be happy if you share with me (or even with BGG I imagine) your ideas and actual changes to Europa Universalis.
Thank you so much for reviewing this game! I am now aware of your channel and have subscribed. I was a backer of this game and have played the video game. The video game has a high learning curve, complex and can be expensive (with many expansions) so in that way it mirrors the board game somewhat. I totally agree with all of your points (my wife said to me “he sounds like you” when watching your video) that the video game does the heavy lifting for you, in the board game you have to do the heavy lifting yourself. I received my copy of this game but sold it without playing it. I did, however, play it extensively on Tabletop Simulator. I had also previously backed Crusader Kings, another board game adaptation of a PC Game from the same company as EU. It was an okay game, very rushed (although delivered late) but importantly it abstracted a somewhat complex PC game into an evening playable board game. When EU board game was first announced the designers used the words “Historical Twilight Imperium”. The early rulebook, although rough supported the many missing elements. The campaign was significantly delayed with many backers play testing the game with the designer on discord. This is where I believe (and others mentioned on Kickstarter) that the vision changed from an adaptation to a replication of the PC game. It went from a day-long game to a multiple day long game. I don’t have a group that can take that so I gave up. Like you I play light and heavy games (such as hex and counter war games) and found the rulebook poorly organised and the gameplay devoid of most modern techniques streamlining techniques. I agree with all your points and am disappointed this game did not end up as I thought the vision started out as.
First of all, thank you for watching the video, subscribing and commenting! Highly appreciated 😊 I'm glad to see I'm not the only one out there and that people are actually agreeing with me even if they like the game. Disappointing is the right word for this game. I wish it would have been different! My dream was to make a how to play video or playthrough to teach this game. This is just not possible. Luckily, there are other cool board games to play out there 😉
So I know I am 3 months late to the discussion. I enjoy this game. I've played it a ton and find the complexity level understandable once you break it down. I agree the rule book is dense, but it needs to be for explaining the multitude of things players can do . Should there be a simpler rulebook 100%. Regarding bots, those things suck. I would recommend not playing with them ever if possible. The thing with those it gives each nation their own AI personality which is a nice touch instead of them being completely random. For the bot designer had to do something to make it single player possible. It reflects player actions fairly well, but it will very complicated. IMO , don't play with them unless you want to play this solo. This eliminates a ton of the shitty complexity making things more streamlined and fun. I feel like you skipped out on showing the quick reference sheet which makes a good showing of everything at a streamlined way and a reference to the rulebook if one doesn't know something. If I made a video guide over everything with single videos for each action type I think you could learn the basics of this game in less than an hour.
First of all, I appreciate you watching the video and commenting. Thank you! Never too late for a discussion :) The thing with the bots, is that you have to understand it if you're playing with less than 4 players. The first mission after the tutorial is already 4 players with the HRE. So finding 3 other people that are willing to invest two full days of playing.... is not an easy task. So as I wrote in a different comment, I just u derstsnd that this game is a niche life style game that is far from being for the average(...?) heavy gamer. The player aid is giving you reference to the rulebook, but even then you don't always find the answer and now you need to look in other parts of the rulebook. And if I need to look at either of those every other minute, what are we actually doing here..? You know what I mean? It's my fault. I should have read the rulebooks and do a better research. I tried to do step by step with the tutorials on RUclips by the designer, but it is SO basic that the moment you have SLIGHTLY a different thing, you can throw it out of the window. And I won't watch an entire 80 videos playthrough of this guy who's posting it on the BGG page just to understand a game. In my opinion, at the end, the juice is not worth the squeeze.
Glad I watched this. I probably could play this game with issue but then never be able to teach it to anyone to actually play it. Feel like a lot of design time was wasted on bots and solo where need to be in the base game at 4 players and say have 4 or do something else. RTFM did a rules explain did that help? Good video saved some money for now.
I'm glad you found it useful :) I watched pretty much all the content that was available on RUclips. Including..... are you sitting down? A 10 hour playthrough made by some guys. Didn't make me not look at the rules every 2 minutes. I think David Turczi dis his best to try and have something for this beast but I'm not sure he could have done better.
I used to play the Europa Universalis PC game back in the day and I lost interest after 6 months because it was so complicated. It was more work than it was fun. I stayed away from the board game for the same reason.
Yes the game is complicated, but no game in its genre offers you so much freedom and so many possible things to do. I love it for that. For me its the ultimate boardgame after having invested a bit of time to learn the rules and game properly.
I wish that was my case as well. I invested SO MANY hours in *trying* to learn the game including 1.5 games via TTS that took about 2 months lol But I found myself checking the rules too often and it ruined the game fluency. Aboit freedom, I mean- you do have a lot of options, but in order to get those prestige points, you need to follow your missions mainly (and try to get technology and general missions). Also, the trade kind of bothered me as it is just too random and so very often you just spent 1 cube to earn 2 coins. Basically, if you haven't colonized distant continents yoir economy is probably stuck. So you have freedom, but the game pushes towards certain directions. Also, for such an immersive game, resulting battles with dice is a bit painful. I lost one battle as France to Spain and basically my game was over (the English player felt so bad for me that he went out of his way to help me staying alive). All in all, I'm genuinely happy that you like it and I hope you'd like the expansion. I just did the video for players like me who need a certain warning. Thank you for watching the video and interacting 😊
And on the 3rd day, half way through shaping Europe, G_d said: "That's it, I call it a day. Let this be know as "Retail Europe."🥴 And of course let me sing praise for this fantastic video and it's maker. 🥳 Personally, I wouldn't touch this game with a ten foot pole. It's one of these games that would take very quickly a trip through a window. Powered by the rage engine.
Couldn't agree more with you mate. Totally with you 100%. I am playing it only solo. Wouldn't dare to introduce this to my group. They will leave the table i am sure. But i am not selling it, never.
Hahaha and that's totally legit! I understand that if you clicked with it- it seems like it is worth it! I'm genuinely happy you found a game that works for you, even if it is just for solo plays
@@ezbgames If I am not mistaken, I have noticed that you own Hellenica. I have it too. And to be honest I feel also a bit frastrated especially playing with AI's. Do you find it also a hard game to play without any reason?
@@koprakas I haven't tried it yet with the AI but this game has been looking at me with sad eyes for a few months now.. So I guess I should bring it to the table soon and give it a go. In all honesty, I find that a lot of times small or starting publishers with big ideas tend to devote less time to playtesting. Playtesting is in my opinion probably the most important thing when you have a complicated game. I know it's not easyt to find people that will invest time for free, but it is necessary
Honestly, the flow charts are really good and make it very clear whats going on. But this game is clearly not for everyone, which in turn is exactly as with the computer game.
@@ezbgames Even though I dont agree with everything in your video, it was a good one. I love seeing honest and well put opinions without being extreme or cringy etc. Keep it up!
I appreciate it man.. seriously. It was important for me to give it everything I could including trying to learn it by myself and play 2 full games before actually putting this online. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been fair for the designer and publisher
I would say that the game is extremely simplified from the computer game. Not enough for most players for sure. The solobot I found to be the only bot system I have loved in any game. That said it is very complicated but I think many modern games have focused too much on streamlining instead of interesting systems. I have not played it enough to know if it is good or not but it has potential to be up there on my top list with games like Here I Stand and Virgin Queen.
If that's the case thank God I never came across the video game. To me, the solo bot felt not thematic at all and not comfortable/ un intuitive to manage. I've played a lot of interesting games that were streamlined enough to be enjoyable. But with each comment or conversation I understand that this game was not meant for the 'public'. It I'd a niche life-style game that fits not a lot of people. And that's totally okay! Plenty of games out there for different people :) I'm genuinely glad you're enjoying the game and I hope you will continue enjoy this for many years 😊
@ezbgames I don't disagree with a lot of your points in the video. Some games are made for a small audience. I have some kind of stange "problem" where I love to learn complex rules. There are so many modern very very good streamlined games but sometimes I love the crunchy more intricate older styles of games as well. I would say that Europa Universalis is somewhere in between older advanced wargames and a more modern game.
I think that on my bottom line I wanted to say that on one hand I feel like they marketed this game as 'anyone can play it if you like heavy board games' which I do, but it's not really the case. On the other hand, I did a mistake by not going deeper into the rules and the game play. Also, this is not a 4X.. saying that the exploration there is the eXploration of 4X is simply not true.
@ezbgames the bgg weight scale is so arbitrary. I only use it as a very general picture what people think but it depends so much on game style as well. A wargame or political game with 4.6 is much more advanced than a euro game that is 4.6 because wargamers are used to an other form of complexity (generally speaking)
After Europa Universalis I stopped looking at the BGG complexity rating. Pure garbage in my opinion (pardon my French 😉) And after playing amazing games and seeing them ranked so low I stopped paying attention to that also. In general, I find it difficult next to impossible to rank games with numbers. To me, it comes down to 'do I want to play it again, or not?'
Funny thing about your video is that you've described exactly how I felt the first time I played Europa Universalis... on the PC! EU IV was very overwhelming to me and I don't really feel like I've got a hang on it till this day lol. I have this game and I'm going to play it soon. I really feel like the rulebook is poorly done and the game isn't streamlined at all. It is full of potential tho What really gets me confused is that: 1) They're about to release a new expansion 2) the game is rated over many other complex boardgames. It is quite remarkable that a game so confusing can be do so well As for your situation in particular. I'd say that having not played the PC game does take its toll on understanding mechanics. I find it amusing that this game was initially a boardgame that got so complicated that they turned it into a PC game. Later, someone decided to make that PC game back to a boardgame! And it turned out complex again. If it is as the PC game. It is extremely not-intuitive and crowded with options that a player will most likely not use at all. It will supercede in bring about historical situations and events whilst delivering a little virtual history as you deviate from historical decisions. At least Europa Universalis always remind us how chaotic 'running a country" truly is. Just wish they'd rewrite the rules in a more understandable/learning by doing way.
Glad to see I wasn't the only one haha About its ranking- this game, to begin with, is for a very small audience. So most likely that audience will adore it. It is such a niche and unaccessible game, that different kind of players won't even try it and then rank it. So it's no surprise that it is ranked very well. Yes, there's an expansion, because why not? If tue first campaign did well, why shouldn't they try and make more money? Makes sense to me. The question is- how many NEW backers are there and how many are returning backers.. This game does have a lot of potential, but I will leave it to other people. To me, this game is like a Dostoievski book that someone has in their library- it looks very impressive on the shelf, but it comes out very rarely. Thank you for watching the video and for commenting 😊
Yeah, there are quite a lot of comments on the matter 😊 Not sure what does it change really, because the last board game is based on the PC game. But yes. You are absolutely right and it all started with a board game 😊👌🏽
Wargames are in their own league. Also, of course the solo bots are going to be cumbersome, just like the bots in COIN games for example. Having that said, maybe the rulebook for this game sucks. I haven't read it.
First of all, I don't think Europa Universalis is considered to be a war game. And even if it does, there's a way, or there should be a way, to simplify things in order for it to be more accessible. Coin games are a niche that is not for everyone, I agree. But I don't think their solo bots are SO difficult, complicated and not comfortable to manage. Just my opinion of course 😊 Thanks for commenting in any case and enriching this discussion
I'm torn. While I agree with what you've said, I do greatly enjoy this game. It is hard to get to the table as it's a multi--day commitment. I also agree that the rulebook is poorly organized. Where I disagree is with doing anything that significantly further simplifies the game. The PC game is significantly more complex than the board game. So unless you're going for something like a glorified Risk, this is what it looks like when you create a game that tries to capture the feel of the PC game (IMO). So what could be done to make this game better? 1) do a complete overhaul of the rulebook so that it's better organized. 2) Remove outlier rules like being able to re-roll dice under certain conditions. 3) add a frequently asked question errata for outlier rules such as a sheet that has useful information such as differences between a distant continent province and a regular one. and 4) most importantly, make an official app version of the rule book that allows you to keyword search. At the end of the day, these steps won't turn this into a 4 hour game, but it will make it more streamlined with less downtime. For example, it's not the rules referencing that is the problem, it's that when you go to reference the rules, it usually takes a long time just to find what you're looking for if you ever find it at all. With twilight imperium, I often felt pigeonholed into choosing actions based on what was previously done what what was left. I also didn't feel that the reward was great enough if you wanted to play CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES style and conquer. I love the sandbox feel of Europa UTPOP. When you complete a game of Europa, you feel like you've earned that victory. Likewise, one really bad move or bad love event will typically not be enough to floor you as is often the case in other games.
First of all, thank you for watching the video and for commenting. I think there's quite a gap between a glorified Risk and Europa Universalis. There's an array of possible games in between so it doesn't have to be one way or the other :) I agree to ALL your suggestions they sound awesome! And tocbe honest? An official full playthrough is mandatory if they want to make this game accessible to more players. It's okay if no, but I think they do. From my experience (and believe it or not I even played after I did this video a few more times) a bad combat due to a poor roll of dice can very much floor you. Or you're going to become dependent on the mercy of the other players. As France, I tried to fight Spain. I had a bit of a larger army and because ai rolled a few blanks in the first roll- I got annihilated. England felt so sorry for me, that they came to my help disregarding their own goals. For such an immersive game, it feels a bit weird (if not very silly) that an entire army just goes to hell because you rolled funny. And if this because that's the same in the video game, than this is (in my opinion) a bad game. Again, just my opinion and it's okay this game is not for me. In any case they're very successful with their new campaign 😊
OMG the flowcharts. That's absolutely insane. I think the publishers forgot that the games are supposed to be fun for everyone, not for just accountants. 😂 Kudos to the people that enjoy the game, but I completely understand your frustration.
Omg i just backed this, because it looked so cool on the presentation video, but after seeing the flow charts i have second thoughts. 🤣🤣🤣 those flow charts killed me, i mostly play alone! 😂😂😂 I will be going forward and backwards in those flow charts 🤣🤣🤣
I also got this without having played the video game or seeing playthroughs etc and I don‘t know why but after I watched your video now I want to bring this to the table even more 😂 and for solo 😱 On another note, I see you have Dark Ages too, would love to see a video for it!
@@ezbgamesLooking forward to your review of Dark Ages. It has quite controversial opinions on BGG. But I see it has devoted players nontheless. I have this game but haven't had a chance to play yet😅
@@vitaliipopadiuk5117 I can also recommend Dark Ages for solo though the bot can be a bit complicated to run. I have also uploaded a summary of the solo rules on BGG that helps me not have to look at the rulebook for every thing that the bot does 😊
I bought it back in Jan and still haven't opened it. Now watching this video and scares me more. I am a programmer so I understand flow charts easily so maybe won't be that bad. Still it's board game. I have to take the dive and try it
@@ezbgames Yes I can. I even want to write blogs about it. Before I did buy this game I did my research and was debating between Voidfall and this game. I wanted a game to invest for the long term (like years not weeks). This is not a typical game you take out on a friday night or play for a week and then back in the box. This game can take a year before you even set aside the instructions. Could be good, as it brings A LOT of replay value. The bad is the frustration you encountered. Maybe take your head off the game for awhile. Just read a few pages a day on the manual.Things can start making sense slowly. I think if you want to learn to play and review it and jam all the info in your head. It will be too much :(
I appreciate the message. Since my channel is super small, I don't expect people will actually follow my different videos. But for those who do, I never just learn a game to play it once and review it. I play a game A LOT before I put it infront of a camera to review it. I don't have a problem with long games, or even games that take a whole long weekend to finish. But I need this game to be streamlined. And not this mess of rules on top of rules on top of rules. By the way, I still play once a week with people who are expert in this game via TTS. And even they still do mistakes, forgetting rules and not sure of things. So that makes me wonder again, how much do you need to play to just NOT look at the rulebook?! So if this someone's ONLY game in their collection- yeah. Master this game for a few months and endless hours of going to the rulebooks, watching videos, play with others via TTS and then.... then bring it to the table. For me, I prefer to enjoy other games that have also high replayability without the nightmare of learning them. I don't think this game requires a high IQ to play it, but remembering all the rules (normal+rules for the bots) is simply not for me 😊 Best of luck buddy! Waiting for updates
Yeah, this is a tough one. I, too, went all crazy with buying everything for it before I had truly learned it. The solo (and most of the game, frankly) is very unapproachable and I agree totally agree the money Aegir is spending on developing a new expansion should be spent on refining this further. It's a really fun game once you can grok the rules. But the solo is not very functional and also even if you do have a group to play it with it's going to take literally like... 14 HRS to play a full game (depending on the scenario). It's a shame, hopefully they clean it up in the future.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one out there.. This game will never be refined. It feels like they climbed too high on that tree. 14 hours is probably for thr first easiest scenario with 4 players (I finished the 1st age with 4 players in about 12 hours). That is insane!!! More than TI4.. This is just not for me. And playing solo is basically just bot maintenance 🤣 Anyways, thanks for commenting 😊
Have you ever played the PC game? There is a learning curve of over 200 hours to become acceptable in it. If you don’t want a heavy game, with a weight of 4.7+ this is just not your thing. That doesn’t say they climbed too high, it’s that you don’t like the height :)
Totally agree with you. For me, the access that a game offers is becoming more and more important. Especially in complex areas. One of the best I've seen here is the Atlantic Chase tutorial. That was quite fun. Thanks for your thoughts!
Yes exactly! If a game is not accessible, how can they expect of us to play it..? GMT are great.. just bought their Twilight Struggle Thanks for commenting! 😊
There's no problem with complex games. May it be video or board. 1) when playing the PC game, you have the computer doing the actions for the non-players. So already a huge part is being lifted from the shoulders of the player 2) I'm guessing that the PC game doesn't cost ~200/250 euros, so even if you don't like it or it's too much- the loss is not that bad 3) I've never played the video game so I don't know what's the learning curve there.. I'm sure that's a cool game aswell! Thank you for commenting 😊
@@ezbgames It's actually more expensive - the *base* game is only thirty five quid, but there's 355 quid worth of DLC for it. I think that's part of the problem - haven't played the boardgame but I suspect they've tried to fit as much of the current content in there as possible rather than feeding it to the player in bite size chunks as the videogame effectively did.
I'm happy to hear I'm not alone in this haha Thank God there are other games to play out there.. Even till today (I still have an unfinished game that I play with the 'pros' once a week) they at least go to the rulebook twice per session. One of the literally said today 'Every time a new rule'. It made me laugh a lot 🤣
The rule books are impressive, but I would not touch this game with a 10 feet pole. Those flow charts are insane. This game would probably be better as computer game... Edit: ok this is actually from a video game... That explains it.
This game made me build a gaming table before I played it so I could leave it set up.
About to start it. If it's too complex, I'm not afraid to do a bit of redesigning. The map and components are too good to waste.
I'm in the process of redesigning Successors, which had a similar problem.
There is an online website that will run the bots for you, but I don't use solo rules.
First of all, that's very cool that you're going for this redesigning. I appreciate and probably even admiring that. I would love to see your redesign for Successors 4th edition since this is a game that left my collection.
But how far will you go for redesigning? And then playtesting making sure it's balanced? Still fun?
I will be happy if you share with me (or even with BGG I imagine) your ideas and actual changes to Europa Universalis.
Thank you so much for reviewing this game! I am now aware of your channel and have subscribed.
I was a backer of this game and have played the video game. The video game has a high learning curve, complex and can be expensive (with many expansions) so in that way it mirrors the board game somewhat. I totally agree with all of your points (my wife said to me “he sounds like you” when watching your video) that the video game does the heavy lifting for you, in the board game you have to do the heavy lifting yourself.
I received my copy of this game but sold it without playing it. I did, however, play it extensively on Tabletop Simulator. I had also previously backed Crusader Kings, another board game adaptation of a PC Game from the same company as EU. It was an okay game, very rushed (although delivered late) but importantly it abstracted a somewhat complex PC game into an evening playable board game.
When EU board game was first announced the designers used the words “Historical Twilight Imperium”. The early rulebook, although rough supported the many missing elements. The campaign was significantly delayed with many backers play testing the game with the designer on discord. This is where I believe (and others mentioned on Kickstarter) that the vision changed from an adaptation to a replication of the PC game. It went from a day-long game to a multiple day long game. I don’t have a group that can take that so I gave up.
Like you I play light and heavy games (such as hex and counter war games) and found the rulebook poorly organised and the gameplay devoid of most modern techniques streamlining techniques.
I agree with all your points and am disappointed this game did not end up as I thought the vision started out as.
First of all, thank you for watching the video, subscribing and commenting! Highly appreciated 😊
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one out there and that people are actually agreeing with me even if they like the game.
Disappointing is the right word for this game. I wish it would have been different! My dream was to make a how to play video or playthrough to teach this game.
This is just not possible.
Luckily, there are other cool board games to play out there 😉
So I know I am 3 months late to the discussion. I enjoy this game. I've played it a ton and find the complexity level understandable once you break it down.
I agree the rule book is dense, but it needs to be for explaining the multitude of things players can do . Should there be a simpler rulebook 100%.
Regarding bots, those things suck. I would recommend not playing with them ever if possible. The thing with those it gives each nation their own AI personality which is a nice touch instead of them being completely random. For the bot designer had to do something to make it single player possible. It reflects player actions fairly well, but it will very complicated. IMO , don't play with them unless you want to play this solo. This eliminates a ton of the shitty complexity making things more streamlined and fun.
I feel like you skipped out on showing the quick reference sheet which makes a good showing of everything at a streamlined way and a reference to the rulebook if one doesn't know something.
If I made a video guide over everything with single videos for each action type I think you could learn the basics of this game in less than an hour.
First of all, I appreciate you watching the video and commenting. Thank you!
Never too late for a discussion :)
The thing with the bots, is that you have to understand it if you're playing with less than 4 players. The first mission after the tutorial is already 4 players with the HRE. So finding 3 other people that are willing to invest two full days of playing.... is not an easy task.
So as I wrote in a different comment, I just u derstsnd that this game is a niche life style game that is far from being for the average(...?) heavy gamer.
The player aid is giving you reference to the rulebook, but even then you don't always find the answer and now you need to look in other parts of the rulebook.
And if I need to look at either of those every other minute, what are we actually doing here..?
You know what I mean?
It's my fault. I should have read the rulebooks and do a better research.
I tried to do step by step with the tutorials on RUclips by the designer, but it is SO basic that the moment you have SLIGHTLY a different thing, you can throw it out of the window.
And I won't watch an entire 80 videos playthrough of this guy who's posting it on the BGG page just to understand a game.
In my opinion, at the end, the juice is not worth the squeeze.
Glad I watched this. I probably could play this game with issue but then never be able to teach it to anyone to actually play it. Feel like a lot of design time was wasted on bots and solo where need to be in the base game at 4 players and say have 4 or do something else. RTFM did a rules explain did that help? Good video saved some money for now.
I'm glad you found it useful :)
I watched pretty much all the content that was available on RUclips. Including..... are you sitting down? A 10 hour playthrough made by some guys. Didn't make me not look at the rules every 2 minutes.
I think David Turczi dis his best to try and have something for this beast but I'm not sure he could have done better.
I used to play the Europa Universalis PC game back in the day and I lost interest after 6 months because it was so complicated. It was more work than it was fun. I stayed away from the board game for the same reason.
You did yourself a huge favor..
Yes the game is complicated, but no game in its genre offers you so much freedom and so many possible things to do. I love it for that. For me its the ultimate boardgame after having invested a bit of time to learn the rules and game properly.
I wish that was my case as well.
I invested SO MANY hours in *trying* to learn the game including 1.5 games via TTS that took about 2 months lol
But I found myself checking the rules too often and it ruined the game fluency.
Aboit freedom, I mean- you do have a lot of options, but in order to get those prestige points, you need to follow your missions mainly (and try to get technology and general missions). Also, the trade kind of bothered me as it is just too random and so very often you just spent 1 cube to earn 2 coins. Basically, if you haven't colonized distant continents yoir economy is probably stuck. So you have freedom, but the game pushes towards certain directions.
Also, for such an immersive game, resulting battles with dice is a bit painful. I lost one battle as France to Spain and basically my game was over (the English player felt so bad for me that he went out of his way to help me staying alive).
All in all, I'm genuinely happy that you like it and I hope you'd like the expansion.
I just did the video for players like me who need a certain warning.
Thank you for watching the video and interacting 😊
And on the 3rd day, half way through shaping Europe, G_d said: "That's it, I call it a day. Let this be know as "Retail Europe."🥴
And of course let me sing praise for this fantastic video and it's maker. 🥳
Personally, I wouldn't touch this game with a ten foot pole. It's one of these games that would take very quickly a trip through a window. Powered by the rage engine.
LOOOOL 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That's pretty much what has happened to me..
Couldn't agree more with you mate. Totally with you 100%. I am playing it only solo. Wouldn't dare to introduce this to my group. They will leave the table i am sure. But i am not selling it, never.
Hahaha and that's totally legit! I understand that if you clicked with it- it seems like it is worth it!
I'm genuinely happy you found a game that works for you, even if it is just for solo plays
@@ezbgames If I am not mistaken, I have noticed that you own Hellenica. I have it too. And to be honest I feel also a bit frastrated especially playing with AI's. Do you find it also a hard game to play without any reason?
@@koprakas I haven't tried it yet with the AI but this game has been looking at me with sad eyes for a few months now.. So I guess I should bring it to the table soon and give it a go.
In all honesty, I find that a lot of times small or starting publishers with big ideas tend to devote less time to playtesting. Playtesting is in my opinion probably the most important thing when you have a complicated game. I know it's not easyt to find people that will invest time for free, but it is necessary
@@ezbgames 100% agree
Honestly, the flow charts are really good and make it very clear whats going on.
But this game is clearly not for everyone, which in turn is exactly as with the computer game.
Glad you found those helpful and clear 😊
@@ezbgames Even though I dont agree with everything in your video, it was a good one. I love seeing honest and well put opinions without being extreme or cringy etc.
Keep it up!
I appreciate it man.. seriously.
It was important for me to give it everything I could including trying to learn it by myself and play 2 full games before actually putting this online.
Otherwise, it wouldn't have been fair for the designer and publisher
@@ezbgames It was appreciated from my end as well! Thanks mate
I would say that the game is extremely simplified from the computer game. Not enough for most players for sure. The solobot I found to be the only bot system I have loved in any game. That said it is very complicated but I think many modern games have focused too much on streamlining instead of interesting systems. I have not played it enough to know if it is good or not but it has potential to be up there on my top list with games like Here I Stand and Virgin Queen.
If that's the case thank God I never came across the video game. To me, the solo bot felt not thematic at all and not comfortable/ un intuitive to manage. I've played a lot of interesting games that were streamlined enough to be enjoyable. But with each comment or conversation I understand that this game was not meant for the 'public'. It I'd a niche life-style game that fits not a lot of people. And that's totally okay! Plenty of games out there for different people :)
I'm genuinely glad you're enjoying the game and I hope you will continue enjoy this for many years 😊
@ezbgames I don't disagree with a lot of your points in the video. Some games are made for a small audience. I have some kind of stange "problem" where I love to learn complex rules. There are so many modern very very good streamlined games but sometimes I love the crunchy more intricate older styles of games as well. I would say that Europa Universalis is somewhere in between older advanced wargames and a more modern game.
I think that on my bottom line I wanted to say that on one hand I feel like they marketed this game as 'anyone can play it if you like heavy board games' which I do, but it's not really the case.
On the other hand, I did a mistake by not going deeper into the rules and the game play.
Also, this is not a 4X.. saying that the exploration there is the eXploration of 4X is simply not true.
@ezbgames the bgg weight scale is so arbitrary. I only use it as a very general picture what people think but it depends so much on game style as well. A wargame or political game with 4.6 is much more advanced than a euro game that is 4.6 because wargamers are used to an other form of complexity (generally speaking)
After Europa Universalis I stopped looking at the BGG complexity rating. Pure garbage in my opinion (pardon my French 😉)
And after playing amazing games and seeing them ranked so low I stopped paying attention to that also.
In general, I find it difficult next to impossible to rank games with numbers. To me, it comes down to 'do I want to play it again, or not?'
Skill issue
Not sure I understood..
Care to elaborate? 😊
Funny thing about your video is that you've described exactly how I felt the first time I played Europa Universalis... on the PC! EU IV was very overwhelming to me and I don't really feel like I've got a hang on it till this day lol.
I have this game and I'm going to play it soon. I really feel like the rulebook is poorly done and the game isn't streamlined at all. It is full of potential tho
What really gets me confused is that: 1) They're about to release a new expansion 2) the game is rated over many other complex boardgames. It is quite remarkable that a game so confusing can be do so well
As for your situation in particular. I'd say that having not played the PC game does take its toll on understanding mechanics.
I find it amusing that this game was initially a boardgame that got so complicated that they turned it into a PC game. Later, someone decided to make that PC game back to a boardgame! And it turned out complex again.
If it is as the PC game. It is extremely not-intuitive and crowded with options that a player will most likely not use at all. It will supercede in bring about historical situations and events whilst delivering a little virtual history as you deviate from historical decisions.
At least Europa Universalis always remind us how chaotic 'running a country" truly is. Just wish they'd rewrite the rules in a more understandable/learning by doing way.
Glad to see I wasn't the only one haha
About its ranking- this game, to begin with, is for a very small audience. So most likely that audience will adore it. It is such a niche and unaccessible game, that different kind of players won't even try it and then rank it. So it's no surprise that it is ranked very well.
Yes, there's an expansion, because why not? If tue first campaign did well, why shouldn't they try and make more money? Makes sense to me. The question is- how many NEW backers are there and how many are returning backers..
This game does have a lot of potential, but I will leave it to other people. To me, this game is like a Dostoievski book that someone has in their library- it looks very impressive on the shelf, but it comes out very rarely.
Thank you for watching the video and for commenting 😊
You say this is based on the of game, but actually there was a board game before this and they made a pc game based on that board game.
Yeah, there are quite a lot of comments on the matter 😊
Not sure what does it change really, because the last board game is based on the PC game.
But yes. You are absolutely right and it all started with a board game 😊👌🏽
Wargames are in their own league. Also, of course the solo bots are going to be cumbersome, just like the bots in COIN games for example. Having that said, maybe the rulebook for this game sucks. I haven't read it.
First of all, I don't think Europa Universalis is considered to be a war game. And even if it does, there's a way, or there should be a way, to simplify things in order for it to be more accessible. Coin games are a niche that is not for everyone, I agree. But I don't think their solo bots are SO difficult, complicated and not comfortable to manage. Just my opinion of course 😊
Thanks for commenting in any case and enriching this discussion
I'm torn. While I agree with what you've said, I do greatly enjoy this game. It is hard to get to the table as it's a multi--day commitment. I also agree that the rulebook is poorly organized. Where I disagree is with doing anything that significantly further simplifies the game. The PC game is significantly more complex than the board game. So unless you're going for something like a glorified Risk, this is what it looks like when you create a game that tries to capture the feel of the PC game (IMO).
So what could be done to make this game better? 1) do a complete overhaul of the rulebook so that it's better organized. 2) Remove outlier rules like being able to re-roll dice under certain conditions. 3) add a frequently asked question errata for outlier rules such as a sheet that has useful information such as differences between a distant continent province and a regular one. and 4) most importantly, make an official app version of the rule book that allows you to keyword search.
At the end of the day, these steps won't turn this into a 4 hour game, but it will make it more streamlined with less downtime. For example, it's not the rules referencing that is the problem, it's that when you go to reference the rules, it usually takes a long time just to find what you're looking for if you ever find it at all. With twilight imperium, I often felt pigeonholed into choosing actions based on what was previously done what what was left. I also didn't feel that the reward was great enough if you wanted to play CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES style and conquer. I love the sandbox feel of Europa UTPOP. When you complete a game of Europa, you feel like you've earned that victory. Likewise, one really bad move or bad love event will typically not be enough to floor you as is often the case in other games.
First of all, thank you for watching the video and for commenting.
I think there's quite a gap between a glorified Risk and Europa Universalis. There's an array of possible games in between so it doesn't have to be one way or the other :)
I agree to ALL your suggestions they sound awesome!
And tocbe honest? An official full playthrough is mandatory if they want to make this game accessible to more players. It's okay if no, but I think they do.
From my experience (and believe it or not I even played after I did this video a few more times) a bad combat due to a poor roll of dice can very much floor you.
Or you're going to become dependent on the mercy of the other players.
As France, I tried to fight Spain. I had a bit of a larger army and because ai rolled a few blanks in the first roll- I got annihilated. England felt so sorry for me, that they came to my help disregarding their own goals.
For such an immersive game, it feels a bit weird (if not very silly) that an entire army just goes to hell because you rolled funny. And if this because that's the same in the video game, than this is (in my opinion) a bad game.
Again, just my opinion and it's okay this game is not for me. In any case they're very successful with their new campaign 😊
OMG the flowcharts. That's absolutely insane. I think the publishers forgot that the games are supposed to be fun for everyone, not for just accountants. 😂
Kudos to the people that enjoy the game, but I completely understand your frustration.
It was just too much for me Mike..
😔
But that means that one game can enter the collection! Haha
@@ezbgames Ohhh, I'm sure I can give you some suggestions :D
Hahaha for sure!!
Omg i just backed this, because it looked so cool on the presentation video, but after seeing the flow charts i have second thoughts. 🤣🤣🤣 those flow charts killed me, i mostly play alone! 😂😂😂 I will be going forward and backwards in those flow charts 🤣🤣🤣
Complicated game. Thanks Assaf for the excellent video- that helped a lot!!!
The pleasure is all mine 😊
I also got this without having played the video game or seeing playthroughs etc and I don‘t know why but after I watched your video now I want to bring this to the table even more 😂 and for solo 😱 On another note, I see you have Dark Ages too, would love to see a video for it!
If you do bring EU:PoP to the table, please share with me your experience!
I will do a review for Dark Ages soon.. it's a great game!
@@ezbgamesLooking forward to your review of Dark Ages. It has quite controversial opinions on BGG. But I see it has devoted players nontheless. I have this game but haven't had a chance to play yet😅
I definitely recommend you play it. It has even a cool solo mode, although the solo mode leans more to the Euro side of the game than on the war side.
@@vitaliipopadiuk5117 I can also recommend Dark Ages for solo though the bot can be a bit complicated to run. I have also uploaded a summary of the solo rules on BGG that helps me not have to look at the rulebook for every thing that the bot does 😊
I bought it back in Jan and still haven't opened it. Now watching this video and scares me more. I am a programmer so I understand flow charts easily so maybe won't be that bad. Still it's board game. I have to take the dive and try it
Please share with me yoir experience after you try 😊😊
I hope you'll nail it!
@@ezbgames Yes I can. I even want to write blogs about it.
Before I did buy this game I did my research and was debating between Voidfall and this game. I wanted a game to invest for the long term (like years not weeks). This is not a typical game you take out on a friday night or play for a week and then back in the box. This game can take a year before you even set aside the instructions. Could be good, as it brings A LOT of replay value. The bad is the frustration you encountered.
Maybe take your head off the game for awhile. Just read a few pages a day on the manual.Things can start making sense slowly.
I think if you want to learn to play and review it and jam all the info in your head. It will be too much :(
I appreciate the message.
Since my channel is super small, I don't expect people will actually follow my different videos. But for those who do, I never just learn a game to play it once and review it. I play a game A LOT before I put it infront of a camera to review it.
I don't have a problem with long games, or even games that take a whole long weekend to finish.
But I need this game to be streamlined. And not this mess of rules on top of rules on top of rules.
By the way, I still play once a week with people who are expert in this game via TTS. And even they still do mistakes, forgetting rules and not sure of things. So that makes me wonder again, how much do you need to play to just NOT look at the rulebook?!
So if this someone's ONLY game in their collection- yeah. Master this game for a few months and endless hours of going to the rulebooks, watching videos, play with others via TTS and then.... then bring it to the table. For me, I prefer to enjoy other games that have also high replayability without the nightmare of learning them.
I don't think this game requires a high IQ to play it, but remembering all the rules (normal+rules for the bots) is simply not for me 😊
Best of luck buddy!
Waiting for updates
And by the way, Voidfall is in my top games. Comes to the table very often, high replayability and lots of fun! 🤩
@@ezbgames Have you tried to get into the game again?
Yeah, this is a tough one. I, too, went all crazy with buying everything for it before I had truly learned it. The solo (and most of the game, frankly) is very unapproachable and I agree totally agree the money Aegir is spending on developing a new expansion should be spent on refining this further. It's a really fun game once you can grok the rules. But the solo is not very functional and also even if you do have a group to play it with it's going to take literally like... 14 HRS to play a full game (depending on the scenario). It's a shame, hopefully they clean it up in the future.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one out there..
This game will never be refined. It feels like they climbed too high on that tree.
14 hours is probably for thr first easiest scenario with 4 players (I finished the 1st age with 4 players in about 12 hours).
That is insane!!! More than TI4..
This is just not for me.
And playing solo is basically just bot maintenance 🤣
Anyways, thanks for commenting 😊
Have you ever played the PC game? There is a learning curve of over 200 hours to become acceptable in it. If you don’t want a heavy game, with a weight of 4.7+ this is just not your thing. That doesn’t say they climbed too high, it’s that you don’t like the height :)
Thank you for saving me a headache.
I would say 'the pleasure is all mine' but it really wasn't 🤣
Totally agree with you. For me, the access that a game offers is becoming more and more important. Especially in complex areas. One of the best I've seen here is the Atlantic Chase tutorial. That was quite fun. Thanks for your thoughts!
Yes exactly! If a game is not accessible, how can they expect of us to play it..?
GMT are great.. just bought their Twilight Struggle
Thanks for commenting! 😊
No excuse for a bad rulebook of course, but the videogame Europa Universalis is also extremely complex (and itself is actually based on a board game!)
There's no problem with complex games. May it be video or board.
1) when playing the PC game, you have the computer doing the actions for the non-players. So already a huge part is being lifted from the shoulders of the player
2) I'm guessing that the PC game doesn't cost ~200/250 euros, so even if you don't like it or it's too much- the loss is not that bad
3) I've never played the video game so I don't know what's the learning curve there.. I'm sure that's a cool game aswell!
Thank you for commenting 😊
@@ezbgames It's actually more expensive - the *base* game is only thirty five quid, but there's 355 quid worth of DLC for it. I think that's part of the problem - haven't played the boardgame but I suspect they've tried to fit as much of the current content in there as possible rather than feeding it to the player in bite size chunks as the videogame effectively did.
Can be..
Can't argue with things I haven't researched 😊
Great video buddy, I know you gave it your all. I tried giving it my all but I didn't nearly have it in my much smaller tank either.
Appreciate you saying it..
100% agreed. It is more or less my story. I would love to play this game, but it is impossible.
I'm happy to hear I'm not alone in this haha
Thank God there are other games to play out there..
Even till today (I still have an unfinished game that I play with the 'pros' once a week) they at least go to the rulebook twice per session. One of the literally said today 'Every time a new rule'. It made me laugh a lot 🤣
🤟🤟🤟🤟
😊
The rule books are impressive, but I would not touch this game with a 10 feet pole.
Those flow charts are insane. This game would probably be better as computer game...
Edit: ok this is actually from a video game... That explains it.
Yeah this was 100% my mistake taking this game..