The California 3-Way (Avoid This)
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- Опубликовано: 29 апр 2024
- In this video I'll give you the history of the California 3-way switch method, how it's wired, how it works and why it's not longer code compliant. #sundaypartner #sunday #lawncare
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Other Videos Here >> Chicago 3-Way - ruclips.net/video/Ky48x6LxuYA/видео.html Dead End, Standard and Single Pole Switches - ruclips.net/video/B6gfI73Tvg8/видео.html
Yes indeed! I also just watched a video from someone else about how to add a 3-way to an existing switch. You might want to make one. Their video made the point, but you would do it better!
@@MyClutteredGarage Great Idea.. Thanks Ed..
At least this one doesn't swap polarity of the light socket, like the Chicago 3 way.
Also, there's always a grounded conductor at the light fixture.
It doesn’t actually switch ‘polarity’ as it’s an AC circuit. It swaps the live wire.
@@hwtans2717For alot of reasons the fixture has a direction or "polarity". It is expecting a hot and neutral and that you wire them a specific way. We're aware it is not the same as DC. However wire two lights....on the first wire it correctly and then screw a bulb halfway in and touch the threads of the bulb....then repeat that but this time with the hot/neutral swapped. You'll find out the problem he's talking about.
@@nathandorris896 I don’t need to find out; I am aware of the problem. Why did you think I needed that explained to me? We are talking about hot and neutral right? Not positive and negative. That’s all I was saying.
"switch polarity" is correct terminology.
In Germany we call this "Sparwechselschaltung" which translates into something like "wire-saving 3-way switch circuit" and we do it by using conduits with 5 wires (Hot, Load, Common, Neutral, Earth) which go into every switchbox. This way we can add an "on" indicator light onto the switch and also add a receptacle next or down to every switch. I don't see how this method could possibly violate your code when using conduits with 5 wires instead of 3
Depending on the circuit breaker and wire size, this could be a violation due to the number of current carrying conductors.
Thanks for this. My old house in California had some confusing 3-way that I could never quite figure out. I suspect it was this. It was also connected with fabric-sheathed wire and I ended up disconnecting it and pulling modern wire (14/3 NM) to replace it all. More work in the end but probably the right move in the long run.
Every older home in Southern California with a detached garage was and many are still wired that way. The purpose was to have a connivence outlet in the garage and be able to control the garage light from the house. Also back then the wires were run overhead so it reduced the number of wires needed. Most of the time the neutral is in the switch box. The non-code compliant issue is no grounds.
When run in metal raceway the race can be used as the ground. Yes, the advantage was extending to circuit beyond the switches. Which what you're talking about carries the neutral which is fine as long as you were not in a county that required conduit and limited the number of conductors to three.
There are two travelers, a constant, and a neutral running between the switches. You could do this with standard 3-way wiring with the same number of wires. Am I missing something?
Wow! Amazing the electrons don't get confused! 🙂 Thank you for the clear explanation!
You bet. Thanks for watching
They just take all available paths like a herd of angry pixies when the doors open for the black Friday sale at Forever 21, and see what happens! Lol
My home was rewired in 2006 after Hurricane Katrina and had the California 3-ways throughout. Took some effort to fix these to upgrade the hone to smart switches.
One downside to this method is sometimes receptacle two was on a different circuit, so killing the breaker for the line conductor did not unload the neutral. Had a few 5v kisses. 😂
Thanks for the visual description.
You bet! Thanks for watching
You have a great ability to explain these concepts. Nice work! Thank you
I appreciate that! Thanks for watching..
Just replaced my first outdoor dual gf outlet.....guy who wired my house only left 4 inches of slack should be at least 6 inches .
Bought a combo Klein testor set with voltage "pen" and outlet testors.
Now I know why a good electrician costs money.
Some years ago I independently had the idea of doing this and I actually really like it. Where it makes sense is when you have the panel at one end, a switch, a couple of lights, and then at the far end of the circuit a switch and an outlet.
You run hot, neutral, ground, switched hot, and "control wire" all the way from the first switch to the last one, through all of the light sockets in the middle, and it saves you a conductor.
Is 14/4 really easier than a 14/2 and 14/3 though?
@@plkracer You make a good point, this is much better adapted to stranded in conduit. Also (I talked to my dad and he commented that) this is a very bad plan if you are just grabbing hots from wherever you find them - because you can easily create a 240v dead short.
A Trailer I worked on had a California 3-way Switch I had to rewire, it was such a pain to deal with but I did eventually get it to the standard setup. 🤦🏿
For sure. You were probably wondering what you got yourself into.. lol
Yep, this is how my house in Colorado is wired, it was very confusing when I rewired it and it didn't work. I figured it out, but man was that a pain!
Thanks for the heads up, in case I ever run across this wacky setup someday. And I thought it couldn't get any weirder than the Chicago 3 way. 😅
I've heard of the California 3 way and assumed it was simply another slang term for the carter / Chicago method, which I now like to call a farmer's 3 way because I ran across it once so far, on a farm in Sanilac County michigan, installed about a year after electricity became available on the farm in 1951.
I would imagine having electricity on the farm for the first time was so exciting (much like the electronics stores on black Friday the year the first iPhone was released to the public😊) nobody at the time considered the obvious danger of changing a light bulb or fixture that was turned off with both terminals at 120V to ground potential or the possibility the switches were on two circuits and fuses/breakers got rearranged so as to place one switch on L1 and the other switch on L2 = 240V to fixture in one of the four switch positions.
I really don't see any added benefit to the California vs the standard method other than to satisfy the local codes in California. Whereas the Chicago or Farmer's method had the benefit of using only three wires instead of four not counting the ground, to switch a lighting outlet between two 3 way switches with constant power to receptacle outlets on both ends, although this method was technically illegal since the 1923 NEC it was used well into the 50s, maybe even the 60s and beyond, by old timers who lived during the tough economic times of the 1930s where frugality and making the most do out of the least, was a must.
I am very familiar with the dead end 3 way, I've used this a handful of times during renovations when I need to convert a single pole switch to a 3 way / 4 way setup while doing little to no drywall damage.
I think the key advantage to the California and Chicago where that both methods carried the circuit beyond the switches. The Chicago was hazardous and the California had no neutral which was ok up until 2011. I think a people stared using it with a neutral in other places for out buildings and detached garages. It allowed them to have a 3-way in the house and another in the garage and also have a receptacle in the garage on the same circuit. With code requirements being updated over the past few decades this is no longer an option. Yup the dead end is and was used to cover a single pole to a 3-way.
Brilliant but confusing! You made it make sense, John!
Thanks Ed. Did you see the video on the Chicago 3-way? It's similar but more hazardous.
Thanks for covering this - hadn't seen this approach used before! Kind of concerning to see a hot conductor alone - typically need the neutral or at least the other hot "return" conductor bundled in a cable to reduce the overall magnetic field (nothing there to cancel it out with a single conductor)!
You bet. Thanks for watching
Looking forward to 4 way switch setup. I have one here in FL and was never able to get the first two switches to control an occupancy sensor in the third location. The occupancy sensor said it was OK for 3 way, so i assumed it would work In fact it does change state at the sensor, however there is something amiss. Adding to the confusion, I installed LED lights and they are glowing dimly when the sensor is idle and I can change the intensity with the other two 4 way switches.
Sounds like you have a problem somewhere. That should not be happening.
In your drawing at 3:26 that neutral wire goes right by both switches, so just poke it in the sw. box and you are good to go if you add a ground wire or metalic tubing etc. However, you are showing a three prong rec. with no apparent ground either. What, other than the missing G & N makes this non code compliant?
Again three wire max in the conduit. And remember this was only code in a few counties in CA. The neutral needs get to the light and receptacles on another run.
I live in a house in Nebraska that was built in 1918 with knob and tube wiring. There are no grounds, and the whole house is wired with California 3-way or, as my electrician called it, "California Hot Wire." Most of the house is still wired that way except for parts that have been updated.
No kidding. I didn’t know they were in use that long ago. Did you see my video on the Chicago 3-way? They were common back in 1918.
I did catch that video as well.
What a nightmare !! You explained it very well though and a good white board presentation also.
Thank you kindly!
Nightmare? The California 3-way looks delightful compared to the Chicago 3-way from the other video, lol! At least the CA method doesn’t swap polarity and leave a hot socket!
If I'm understanding correctly, all that would be required to make that wiring method code compliant would be a neutral wire running into one of the switch boxes and I'm not seeing why you couldn't just do that. Even if the three wires in a raceway rule still applies. I'm assuming this is in conduit inside a slab or something like that running THHN or similar. I only see one wire in the raceway from Rec1 to SW1. You could add a neutral in that raceway and you're still at only two wires. You now have a neutral at SW1 and that seems to comply with modern code, doesn't it?
Great explanation as to how they work. But what is/was the appeal of using this method vs other methods?
What was the benefit of this?
The only benefit is to carry on the circuit through the switches but with just three wires. It makes no sense otherwise.
This version (called an "Sparwechselschaltung" - "economy 3-way switch” here) is still permitted in Germany and is occasionally used in garages or basements, as a switch/receptacle combination is often installed there. This provides a receptacle at both switching points.
I don't see how there's anything particularly "economical" about this. It still requires the same number of wires, etc, as a standard 3-way + unswitched conductor (for the outlet) would need. It's just a more complicated/confusing way of doing it...
@@foogod4237
Individual wires in the conduit are not usually used here.
Sheathed cables are used here in Germany today. These are available in 3 or 5 core versions, which most electricians here always have with them and because a lot of this type of cable is used, they are also relatively inexpensive. They are also available with more than 5 cores, but these are usually unreasonably more expensive and have to be purchased first because they are rarely needed.
This is where the "economy" comes from.
@@kaysonntag74 It doesn't matter what kind of cable you're using. It requires the same number and type of conductors, which means you can use _exactly the same cable_ either way.
@@foogod4237
You need 6 conductors, thats the problem. 3 and 5 conductors are standard and every electrician here have them in store.
The 7 conductor cable is more expensive than the 5 core Version.
The difference in Price is about 2€ per Meter. (+ the cost of the drive to the supplier)
This application is too rare to keep this type of cable in stock.
My house in Kentucky had 3 different circuits with 3-way switches. I could not figure out the wiring - maybe this was how it done - built about 1972 or so.
I took it out and put in new - using a 14-3 - with the method that I understand. I had to do a little drywall patching, but it was well worth the effort - at least in my mind.
I have a 3-way switch situation with a 2-wire traveler that does not seem to be covered by either the California or the Chicago method. In this method, the hot on SW1 is connected to the common. The 2 wire traveler is connected to the traveler terminals on both SW1 and SW2. The fixture hot is connected to the common on SW2. The fixture neutral is connected to a separate circuit breaker neutral that is located in the same electrical box as SW2. They actually daisy chain the separate circuit's neutrals so that the outside light hot uses the kitchen neutral, the kitchen hot uses the dining room neutral, and the dining room hot uses the stairway neutral. At each end of the daisy chain, there is a single pole switch. (I hope I am explaining this correctly). Have you ever seen this? Houston TX built in the early '80s.
No I haven't but what you describe in you comment is basically a standard 3-way. The feed comes into switch 1 and the load comes into switch 2 and the travelers connect the two. The switches are actually wired correctly. The issue is they did it in a way that does not carry the neutral which may have been legal when it was installed. However, it is a code violation to have the lighting return on a neutral from another circuit. That has never been compliant.
@@BackyardMaine House was built in 1981-1982, so it has most likely been like this for over 40 years. I know you outlined the dangers of the Cali and Chicago 3-way. Can you outline the dangers of returning a neutral on another circuit. It would be a pain to rewire all of the 2-wire to 3-wire, but if you recommend or insist, I will try.
Very interesting. The set of circumstances that would lead someone to have to wire something this way is silly. Why not run a larger conduit between switches....ect...ect.
I guess the questions could go on forever. But I guess its cool to see what someone came up with to solve a paticular problem they were having.
I like the chicago three way. :D I made this in my basment cuz i had not enogh wires in the cable : D
They are both very unique..
what a troubleshooting nightmare! i have been a electrician for 38 years in northren california, i have never seen this
Very strange method indeed.
I’m confused. The only things I can find in the codebook about multiway switching that would apply to California vs Chicago vs conventional three way circuits is as follows;
1) multiway switches cannot break the neutral. (In one “off” state the Chicago breaks the neutral. The California never breaks the neutral.
2) At least one of the three way switches must have a neutral. (While a California can be wired without a neutral in either switch box so can a conventional three way switch loop [hot coming in the light fixture box] and both can have a neutral put into a switch box by adding one extra conductor.
So why is the California not code compliant? Am I missing something?
The main issue I stated in the video is that this was done because of a wiring limitation and the neutral was not carried. If you carry a neutral wire you can wire a switch in this way but I don't know why you would. It would be confusing for anyone later on replacing a switch and you would gain nothing.
@@BackyardMaine yes agreed, you gain nothing with the California when there’s only one load. This is why the California is so rare. But if multiple loads must be on a three way (a string of lights in a hallway, down the isle of a horse stable or multiple hot/switched duplexes) and every box in that string to include the switches needs to be available to to have hot and neutral in them for more branch lighting, the California will save conductors over a conventional three way. This is the actual reason it was invented.
Good video! But you should have shown the requirements of the code on the diagram so people understand what the code is asking for
when i lived in San Diego with my massage therapist girlfriend, we had a California three-way with a nice Persian girl!
Even though much of the modern world has become perverted. it doesn't mean that you have to become perverted as well. We're supposed to view that kind of behavior (fornication) as so wicked that we would never joke about it. Nowadays many people reapond to correction with curses and death threats, but they don't realize that it's possible to react to correction with humilty, maturity and honor; and actually realizing that wrong has never stopped being right.
I don't recommend adopting the corruption if the modern world; because wrong is still wrong, youre bound to encounter someone who tells thst youre doing something wrong, so youll set yourself up to have an uncomfortable experience.
If you want to clean up your mind completely, read the Bible and you'll experiencing something that this corrupt world can't offer you.
@@yougetagoldstargood Lord... get tf off the internet with your thousand page novel. Congratulations or I'm sorry that happened.
"of course each location has ground wires" Ha, ha, ha!
Assuming we're talking about modern wiring. I know old home run in knob and tube really carried a ground. Although a ground wire has been a requirement for over 100 years many places didn't have inspectors or even licensed electricians for a long time after that..
Out of California, Chicago and Standard, which one is the oldest method?
I think it was the Chicago which was used over 100 years ago.
Can you make a video on wiring a 4way ?
Will do.. Thanks for the video idea. I get that out soon.
This method can only be done with conduit. Am I thinking correctly?
It's only practical to do if using conduit.
In my location, each built-in light has to be on a separate circuit.
With at least one light per room or a switched receptacle
With Hallway.Way And stairwell lighting. Each on their own circuits.
Wow, that is a lot of breakers. At my location it goes by square feet. Three "typical" kids' bedrooms, the hallway, and shared bathroom could fall within the square foot limit for a 15A circuit, but given LED light fixtures maybe pull 3A at the most.
Never heard of such a thing.. Not even in a local code. Where are you from. I want to look that one up.
the only place I've seen that is in a 70s house with a Despard Switch setup. even then, they would put two lights on a breaker. and yeah, 4 breaker panels in the house I'm working on right now - 2 of them just for lighting runs.
@@BackyardMaine If asking me, I'm in El Paso county in Colorado.
I think I encountered this one about 20 years ago.
Thank you for making me not have to google "California 3-way." Need to protect my innocence.
I never thought of it that way.. 🤣
In a Delta 3 phase environment, 3 wires no neutral corner grounded, does the grounded conductor need to be present at a light switch?
In the USA the only time you're going to see a 3-phase delta system in a large commercial or industrial applications typically used for motor loads. I work most of my career in large industry and where lighting would be run in 3-phase wye connected transformers (277/480v) and the lighting was run at 277v with a neutral and ground. Or 120/208v wye connected transformer for lighting and receptacles. But in any case ground wires are required in grounded systems.
@@BackyardMaine thank you.
corner grounded delta systems cannot be used for single phase lighting loads because there is no neutral in the system. First problem is that with corner grounded systems there is no 120 or 277 available without a Delta Wye transformer somewhere, and no single pole basic light switches are made to handle 480. Now there are light switches made that are two and three pole, so those theoretically can be used. While one of the conductors in a corner grounded system is grounded, it is not a neutral wire but a phase conductor, so I dont think corner grounded delta systems can fulfil the NEC requirement, especially since the requirement is for smart switches which likely only function on either 120 or 277, probably not on 240, and definitely not on 480.
For lighting loads where a building is fed with a corner grounded delta service, particularly a 480 volt one, your best bet for lighting loads is to first get a 277/480 wye transformer or 120/208 one.
@@BackyardMaine Dont forget that High leg Delta and Open delta systems, which technically are still delta systems used to be very popular installs for installations with fairly small three phase services. in particular open delta was quite poplar for running large farm irrigation equipment, and I see them used all the time for gas stations in my area.
But now delta systems on most sites are slowly being phased out in favor of Wye systems. Power companies often wont install new Open Delta or High leg Delta banks anymore, and I'm pretty sure corner grounded and ungrounded delta systems are slowly on their way out.
@@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818 You are correct on all points.. I don't know if the person commenting was from the US so it is possible they use some configuration with 240v lighting.
Looks to be much safer than the chicago 3 way, but still seems like it takes more wire than a standard 3 way.
After seeing the Chicago 3-Way, this isn't so bad.
I know right. It's a similar setup without all the hazards.
Thanks for closing this out. It may be clever, but I bet it's a mess to actually wire it all together.
Yup you’re right about that.
When wired in 14-4 with both switches, and the two common terminals connected back to back the rest is easy peasy. I,ve done that for years that so called code violation. As long as I tap for the light from either switch with 14 -4 I interpret that as code compliance.
Miss Paula Walach
Paula, this is a code violation due to the fact the neutral is not carried to at least one of the 3-way switches. Neutral were required at switches beginning in 2011 with exceptions. One of them being that if a cable could be fished in without removing the wall covering the neutral would not be required. So any home with an attic or a basement could use this exception. That exception was removed in 2023. This issue was that people were installing smart switches and with no neutral in the box they would connect the neutral wire in the switch to the ground wire in the box putting current flow on the ground.
you missed the part where this wasn't done with 14-4. this was done in conduit with no more than 3 conductors in any given conduit. it's still a bad method, now that we have 4 conductor NM cable. you use the unmarked neutral as neutral, black and red for the travelers, and the marked white wire to carry the hot, and you have a "standard" 3-way that carries the hot in the same cable. or if you want to stretch the code, you use the marked wire to carry the switch leg back to the originating switch, if you need a light at each end of a long 3-way run.
Then you have the pocono three way, which is just a dead end 3 way but the common is the ground wrapped in tape.
Scary..
this is not the california 3-way I learned to be aware of. the one I know is similar to the chicago 3 way, except there is no direct connection between the receptacles: there is a 2 wire from the first receptacle to the first switch, a 2 wire from the switch to the light, a 2 wire from the light to the other switch, and a 2 wire to the second receptacle. no guarantee that the receptacles are even on the same circuit.
but that reminds me, there are two kinds of dead end 3-way: one where the power enters at the switch, and one where the power enters at the light location.
In my 1950-built house, I have a dead end 3 way where power enters the light and the heads to the 2 switches. The light is above a landing at the top of the stairs and the switches are at the top and bottom of the stairs.
It took me quite awhile to figure out what had been done.
@@seangwright yep. That's the age they were doing that.
@BackyardMaine by adding a second always energized receptacle (top-right) to your diagram does nothing but add confusion. It doesn't interact at all with the 3-way switching, it's just pass-through. Could be more effective of a video if that was omitted.
Thanks for the info!
0:14 (Although I’m from New York and I pick on them all the time…) You erased New Jersey! (And Virginia’s Eastern Shore)
oops..
😊😊😊😊
Reinventing the wheel for no reason.
There was a reason at the time but it’s definitely a reinvention.
It is like scratch left ear with right hand.
I'm not really clear why this is clever or what advantage it would have.
The issues was that they were limiting the number of cables in a conduit. This was a solution.
I'm not sure I understand. Cables in a conduit? Do you mean NM inside a conduit? I've never heard of that.
If it's a matter of cables, the run between the switches has four current carrying conductors including neutral. That means a 12/3 and a 12/2. If you're running that anyway, why not just use a standard 3-way wiring and use the black in the 12/2 as a constant for the recep?
Didn't I just watch this a week ago?
No that was the Chicago 3-way. Quite different actually.
@@BackyardMaine My bad...apologies...always enjoy your content
@@GaryT1952 Thank you Gary..
Umm.. there is nothing in the codes you quoted that makes the California 3-way inherently any more or less "outdated" (or code-compliant) than a standard 3-way. You can do a California 3-way while also bringing the neutral conductor into one or both switch boxes, and it's still a California 3-way.
IMHO the main reason not to do this is that it is more confusing, and doesn't really gain you anything over a standard 3-way (but at least it's not dangerous or against code like a Chicago 3-way is)...
Correct as stated the code violation is that there is not neutral. I agree with that it's more confusing especially for anyone changing switches after the fact. I have seen this in use where they did carry the neutral wire to out buildings or a detached garage. They would have a 3-way in the house and another one in the garage along with a receptacle off the same four wires.
A California does seem complicated and confusing but it’s really not once you get used to it.
The only conventional three way circuits that beat it for number of conductors are the straight and dead end three ways. A roughed in three way switch loop can be wired California or conventional. The benefit of a California is when you have multiple loads on a three way like a string of lights in a hallway or the center isle of a horse stable and you need hot and neutral in every box in the string including the switch boxes for more branch lighting circuits. It also works when a customer wants multiple receptacles in a room with one hot and one switched receptacle in each duplex but the switched receptacles need to be on a three way. To do that conventionally, five conductors are needed but with the California only four are needed. This is the reason for its invention.
The downside is that the California can never be a four way. That won’t work.
What a mess!
(I'm just at 7m, you may say this in a moment) That's sooooo ugly! If there's any fault at the socket, the current will flow through everything else in the circuit!
Title suggestion: What was California thinking! 😬
Or
Avoid this in California!
Thank you.. This video isn't performing as well as my others and I have edited the title and thumbnail once already. I love your suggestion. Maybe you can be my thumbnail and title approver from now on.
That looks very bad. Can't the inspector see that in a ruff in inspection.
Before 2011 we didn't need to carry the neutral to the box. It's a clever way to carry the circuit through your switches on to other loads but now we need a neutral in the box. Another thing I don't like about it is you have your down stream current traveling through your switch wires.
*Clownifornia
First, I hate lights and outlets on the same circuit, as I don't like the idea of an overloaded outlet plunging the room into darkness, (but a switched outlet where you can plug in a lamp, is a different deal and okay.) Second, you're avoiding sending the neutral to the switches, but still have three wires between the two switches---what's the point of that? And you still have to send a neutral to the light fixture. I'm not saying that the California 3-way doesn't work, is dangerous, or can't exist, but that it's pointless, with zero advantage over the standard 3-way.
I think I mentioned in the video that the reason it was done was there were some counties in California that required conduit and you couldn't have more than three wires in the pipe. Also to minimize conduit runs they continued the circuit through the switches and on to other loads. Otherwise you're right there would be no point.
there's a vastly simpler way to draw this
I look forward to seeing it in your next video.
Everything in california is effed up!
Beautiful State. I lived there for four years in the 80s when I was in the USAF. Seems to be spinning around the drain now..