@@revanence But, if you want people to keep coming back and spending millions of dollars at your auctions, you don't want a reputation for misrepresenting the items you are selling.
@@revanence I agree. It does seem almost criminal that they can put in their terms "you can't trust me" and shed all legal responsibility. It's like if I had an agreement with a bank that I knew that they wouldn't read, and I included "it's okay if I rob you." And by you/your I meant they/their.
I think that this is precisely one of the reasons people are scared (myself included) to jump into the vintage watch space. People are not trustworthy, by and large, and spending hard earned money on something that has a high probability of not being 100% authentic is seriously concerning.
You buy the seller and even then you need to be careful. People are always saying prices on Theo & Harris and comparative sites are overpriced for vintage but they have expertise in authenticating and a reputation to lose. Buying on eBay or Chrono24 is just a risk I am not willing to take.
Happened to me last summer. I received an Oyster as present from Dad 15 years ago - I did not like the dial at that time and asked the retailer - the Rolex boutique in Geneva Rue de la Fontaine 3 - to change the dial, which they did. Ten years later, I brought the watch for a service in the same Rolex boutique (which had in the meantime change management) and was told that they could not service the watch (which is done at Rolex HQ in Geneva) unless I accepted to change the dial back to the "original" one - and at my cost.... It seems Rolex are enforcing a stricter policy now and only service "original" watches. I tried to argue with Rolex HQ in vain. In the end I had to service the watch with an independent watchmaker (lucky enough there is no shortage of competent ones in Geneva). I still found the experience very frustrating - being told by the same boutique that did the modification that my watch was not serviceable as a result of a modification that they willingly did....
I am very familiar with the Rolex store - Chrono Time - and I have a lot of reservation about how they conduct their business since the change of management about 3 years ago. I am wondering, if at the time you changed the dial, they let you keep your dad’s initial dial.
I managed to find an early mk1 1675 case in the 1.6m range, spent months researching and sourcing all the right period correct parts for that serial range, even found a genuine refinished mk1 dial, and put it together myself. while it's not exactly all original, i hold it in great pride and absolutely love it. just be upfront about it, kind of like a project car/restoration in my head. even the 6251h and c+i fit down to the exact 1967 case year :)
We are living in a world where people demand for perfect piece that stand out. No one want to hear word like polished/lightly polished instead they want something like worn with passion and worn with care. They want reassurance.. The words are very important and money matters at the end of the day.
totally agree, funny how collectors are in the watch world with parts being changed when they are period and correct to the actual watch? There would not be a lot of classic cars left if we took the view of a lot of watch collectors with this weird perception of originality.
I have no issue with restoration of vintage watches with period correct parts. Its just a necessity with these objects in some cases. The problem with this daytona besides the obvious intent to not disclose what was done is what is period correct for a essentially piece unique? The is a complete made up watch with spare parts and some parts are even in question if their genuine rolex.
John Mayor had that $multi-million complaint with dealer Robert Maron in LA after Mayor learned several of his important Rolexes had “service parts” in the movement - I think things settled down a little after cooler heads prevailed - may be a good story to followup on….
You're spot on. The guy's a slime ball, and to then hide behind the "Charity " B/S, like you said, he hasn't said if the 6 mill went to charity, or a percentage, then what percentage. Those pushers are dog shit bad, he had time to tell who needed to know about the truth on the watch. Remember, someone's paid 6 million for this watch, I wonder how he/she feels?
Agreed, and even this channel is making excuses. I collect antique fans. Almost every valuable antique fan has been tampered with at some level. The Rolex is a Frankenwatch. C'mon, those pushers are fake. Call a spade a spade. This watch would've never fetched millions. These guys are making excuses. They just don't want to be blacklisted.
@@davidhunternyc1 exactly. Imagine paying 6million for thst Frankenwatch, i will sue Aurel Bach Grandmother, his dog, the auction house, the whole staff, everybody's getting sued. U know whats funny? When that watch was sold i wrote a dm to his IG (John's) a long dm, thanking him for donating all that money and blah blah....he wrote back a crossed hand emoji....with this new info, he probably pocketed a lot of that money, i know it.
@@fungus_am0nguz644 A watch hodgepodged together with all Rolex parts is still a fake watch. This watch isn't even all Rolex. Who knows how fake parts are in this watch? Why are Theo and Harris making f*ing excuses. This watch watch is a $20,000 watch, at best. Now, because of the scandal, it's probably worth $100,000 just for being infamous. Eric Garner gets murdered for selling cigarettes on the street but rich people collude to steal $6.5 million and perfectly fine. There needs to be a criminal investigation.
Original bracelet - replaced no big deal Original dial - replaced no big deal Original crown replaced no big deal Original pushers - replaced no big deal Original bezel - replaced no big deal Glass - not mentioned, but I would guess replaced too What about the hands, if the dial and bezel and buttons were replaced.... 60000000 for charity also smells like fake Someone has been royally gang-banged here
The problem is this watch was likely never a complete watch, but a prototype. Something to test the waters for a white gold case. These prototypes would come with a case, movement and some version of a dial (often from an existing different reference), but likely had no bezel and only temporary pushers. Most such prototypes never make it out of HQ, but over the years some older ones made their way to the market. This one seems to have been turned into a full franken watch.
This is why I hate the pandemic. Before people didn’t know what a Rolex Sub even looked like and had no clue what Patek was. I had an Aquanaut, 5711/1R, many other nice watches that could get for below MSRP any day. Now they are all over priced “Look At Me” pieces that can’t be found for less than my left testicle. I don’t even own a simple Sub at the moment because of the over values prices being put on these watches and it makes me sad because I’ve always enjoyed them for what they are, not what they represent. I purchased my first Sub back in 2005 as a gift to myself for graduation. So have been into watches way longer than these new fashion look at me people that have destroyed the industry.
It’s exactly the same for vintage racing cars. Some sellers remain extremely discreet about the car true story, would not comment and even steer well clear from the auction whilst the auctions houses promote the sale… with full on fanfare ! Some excellent replicas are made from recycled period correct metals then “rediscovered” from a barn, scrapyard, etc… with a good story to boot and sold that way. Both are acting with the objective of maximising profits. Funny things happen when the genuine car returns to the light with irrefutable provenance traceability 🤣😂
There's one party that we're forgetting here, Rolex. If Rolex weren't so tight-lipped, interacted with their community like a 21st century brand and stopped this stuff upper lip act they could open a department to handle exactly this, somewhere for auction houses to authenticate a watch that may be in question, they don't even have to make it openly available, just select auction houses they could partner with. Yes the auction house fucked up in this particular scenario but we wouldn't even be having the conversation if Rolex did their part to maintain the integrity of the brand.
He allegedly stated he did restore it to it’s “former glory”of course after it was called out about it being a fraken watch, according to Perezcope back in 2018 article. But it does really need to be disclosed especially when that kind of money is being invested.
The Ship of Theseus: A ship leaves dock and sails off to sea. While sailing and never docking the crew begins to replace every single part of the boat. Every plank, mast, ropes, rudder - everything. When everything is replaced it sails back into dock. Is it the same boat? This is an old thought experiment and philosphical question which illustrates how this question of originality, this question of identity has been discussed since ancient times.
It's a frankenwatch. It doesn't matter if you're a world renowned collector or a dodgy eBay seller. If he disclosed the restoration before the sale that's fine but he didn't. Fraud is fraud.
My own personal view.... For a vintage watch that was originally mass produced, I really wouldn't mind if it had been put together from parts that all originally came from different individual watches, as long as 1) all of those parts were original and from the correct production period (not necessarily made in exactly the same year, 2) there weren't any detectable mismatches that couldn't have occurred in initial production (e.g. incompatible serial numbers), and 3) there weren't any blatant mismatches in the condition of the parts (e.g. a bezel that was much more worn than the case it was fitted to). Beyond these things, originality is a wholly abstract concept - it would be impossible for anyone to tell that the watch wasn't entirely original unless they had supporting information. I realise I'm probably in a minority in this respect, however.
@@BaritoneMike Yes, if you are aware of it. Of course you might not be, and it could be impossible to tell... In which case, does it matter? It does raise a philosophically interesting moral dilemma for a seller. If you were a moral utilitarian and you knew that it would never be possible to tell that a watch had been assembled from parts originally from different watches, would there be any harm in not revealing this information? The buyer (and any subsequent buyers) would never have any reason to doubt the total authenticity, and would be entirely happy. I'm not advocating this approach, but you could make an argument for it.
@@neil4701 perhaps - but is it ever truly indiscernable? Regardless, in this case it definitely *is* visible, and the former owner more than likely knew about it and why he kept the watch details obscure. There's no grey area here in my opinion and the whole discussion, while having some merit (better repair than discard), is moot at its core. When there's mods - you inform to the best of your knowledge, period. And whether the market accepts it or not - it's up to the buyers, but omitting information is *surely* not the fix.
@@BaritoneMike Yes, that's my personal opinion too, but I'm also just interested in the philosophical side of it. I think a reasonable person could argue it the other way if they wanted to (not for this example, but for others). Say you have two watches of the same model made in the same year, one with a nice unpolished case and clean dial but heavily scratched or corroded hands, the other with case and dial in poor condition but perfect hands. The model is unlumed. If you swapped the hands and put the good ones on the nice watch, I can't really see how it would ever be possible to discern that this had been done. Certainly not with any confidence. Unless there was some sort of record in the public sphere indicating that the watch had once had scratched / corroded hands. So a utilitarian could argue that there is no moral value in declaring the modification, potentially(?) reducing the value of the watch and the contentment of the next owner (although I suppose he might need need to show that this owner was more content than another hypothetical owner who had obtained the watch with scratched hands at a lower price.. ;-))
@@neil4701 I get your point, but I think the issue is not with disclosing the information, but with what people do with that information. Ergo: you should be honest and sincere about it, the effect that info has on the watch is up to the community (keeping the price the same or not). In the end, if you need to question whether something is ethical or not - it very likely means it isn't (to you).
To be fair, the Authenticity of the watch does not fall on the seller. Lots of people own Frankenstein watches and have no idea; it's on the "professionals" at the auction house to be the gatekeepers of the "genuine" moniker. So far in the last year or two we've had: Fake Picasso: Sunflowers Fake DaVinci: Mundi Fake Rolex: 6265 Fake Cartier: Crash And that's just the big ticket items we know about because they had the most eyes on them. Stop blindly trusting auction houses. They just want the highest hammer. They are thieves.
In the collector car world, there are categories for describing the path taken by a particular car. There are original, unrestored cars. There are Survivors, which have not been restored but may have had repair or replacement of some parts over time. There are fully restored cars, which should have a documented basis in originality but may have been massively reconstructed and/or rebuilt, refinished to near perfection. Then there are Restomods, which are unique collections of parts, some old, some modern to make a car that looks old but drives much newer. Watch collectors should settle on some series of buckets like this. The best examples would be certified and documented by the original manufacturer at some cost.
Please forgive my ignorance as I am just learning about vintage watch collecting. For me the difference in quality of the pushers between the comparison photos really stands out but just looking at the watch by itself the winding crown stands out more to me than the pushers. Is it Stainless? Does Rolex not use white gold crowns? Like I said I'm new to watches but to me it looks terrible.
Hodinkee shares culpability, they are notorious for propping up watches before they go to auction (paul newman, Marlon Brando, etc) OR they release their own limited edition collaboration of the same watch. Literal insider trading!
Speaking of restoration… I have a vintage Cartier Santos Carree and when I had Cartier service it, the bracelet broke into 3 pieces- the pin system was broken on two links. Any recommendations of where I can get it repaired? Cartier only offered to replace with new, but the new bracelet is not the same and I want to preserve the one I have since the watch itself is in great shape. Seems funny that they want to put a different period bracelet in the classic watch. I need a watch maker or jeweler who could repair the old links I think, or at least someone with experience working on vintage Cartier.
The ship of Theseus is a paradox regarding identity over time. One version, positing a scenario in which all the parts of a ship are replaced gradually and one at a time, poses this question: Is the vessel that exists after the replacements the same ship as the vessel that existed before the replacements?
Great point - fine art that has been over restored or heavily restored, if known, will decrease in value, because it’s not original even if it appears to be on the surface. One might assume the same with rare watches. Classic cars on the other hand, have to be safe to drive, so OEM parts and vintage parts are ok to a degree. It really depends on the buyer and how they intend to use it. In a car museum, you want the hood to be open and to see the original parts and how they worked together in design. If the classic car is a weekend driver on the road, you need fully operating gear, so you may allow Contemporary swaps. In your conversation here, the bottom line quality for being “Fake” = deceit or lack of disclosure. I completely agree on the restoration conversation. I would happily wear restore vintage if I knew that’s what I paid for. Thanks for bringing up this important topic.
Really it's time for a mindset shift across the hobby where a respectful, transparent restoration should be just as desirable as an "all original" piece, for the same reason this is the case in cars: the restored piece is one that will actually work. If anything restoration is an art in itself and the documentation and story of how a historic piece is lovingly restored should just add to the provenance and value of the piece; now we can appreciate how literal generations of talented craftsmen and enthusiasts have all left their mark on this artifact of living history. But that's not at all what happened to here, J Goldberger just went radio silent and we're supposed to trust the highly suspect provenance of the replacement parts on his name alone.
I have a vintage Rolex from 1972 , the year I was born . My father bought it for me and gave it to me on my wedding day . One of the greatest things I own
Damnnn nice, what a great wedding gift and story, my father is going to give to me his 5513, all original but i got to source a correct period Oyster bracelet, since it has a Jubilee one (lol i dont even know how that happened, maybe from a GMT??) It looks rugged, a lived in Sub with battle scratches in the glass and lugs, kinda rusty hands but nothing that a lil facelift cant fix to make that face with its amazing patina pop. I love no date Subs.
I worked with a guy (a Park Ranger) and noticed he was wearing a Pepsi GMT Master, it was absolutely battered, massive scratching all over the bezel and glass, so bad you could hardly tell the time. I asked (about 3 years ago) if I could buy it for £500. He said " this old thing? I've had it since 1973 when I bought it, I don't think I could ever sell it, I've worn it for work every day". He retired and I saw him by chance about 6 months ago. I asked about the watch and he proudly showed me the same watch that he'd had "repaired" with a new bezel and glass. "The jeweller who repaired it says it's now worth £20,000." I could have cried.
The man's still made a ton of money, and he doesn't care, he wants to use the watch as a watch and read the time, which he was obviously struggling to do. he's never gonna sell it, so there's no problem on what it could have been worth....Good story though✌
Great analysis guys - it is refreshing to see young men such as yourselves have a moral compass from which to assess the situation. IMO It is likely he choose the charity path to sale to mitigate the watches pedigree. I am shocked at the lack of precision in the duplicate parts. - I was a machinist working thru college and you can certainly with effort remake parts mechanical parts - using the vintage process. I am also shocked in the few instances with watch repair at the lack of the ability to do reasonable restoration - such as re-plating parts - where they push for replacement.
Even original parts are not always a possibility, when you have an old car that is not super popular, sometimes if you need a part, that part might not exist anymore, anywhere, what to do? Take your grandfather car to the junkyard? No, using newly manufactured parts because there are none original to be found, it's completely acceptable in my opinion, but yes, there should be disclosure when selling it, always.
I think this is one of the best videos and discussion so far in the channel. I think its a very thin and grey area in the vintage world for this topic. I think it comes down to ethics and perception. Its interesting that in some other industries thing like this may seem ok but in the watch worth its still debatable.
This reminds me of a comparable incident that happened in the Classic Auto world with an Auto Union (Audi) race car from the 1930s that was pulled from auction at the last minute because of questions around it's originality. Christy's did it's due diligence, and it turned out the chassis was not the original race winning one, and this would then be disclosed. The auction house should definitely have addressed the questions before the sale.
With cars there's still "numbers matching" which is better than "period correct". With watches there is "let's try to make a super rare version out of an ordinary one with period-correct and sometimes reproductions to rip off people at an auction, of which the auction house is typically complicit."
I had a 1665 comex sea dweller 1978 , in 2008 I took it to an ad to be sent to rolex for a service, I told them under no circumstances is the face or hands to be replaced, I got the watch back with the original dial and hands
It's a nicely done franken Daytona. Might be the immaterial worth to someone that it comes from Goldberger... But 6.5M for a franken watch is still rough.
Good point about restoration of classic paintings. Yes, it has to be done, as the original is deteriorating and will disappear before long. If you go to Milan to see "The Last Supper" by Leonardo da Vinci, you won't see da Vinci's work. You'll see restorers' work. His work was covered up centuries ago. A restored classic car is the same: many parts were remanufactured, not polished and reinstalled. The leather is new, the rubber is new, the paint is new, parts that were too far gone are remade--things the factory never handled.
Which auction house were the ones that sold the Frankenstein PP Aquanaut with the Comet Nautilus dial and movement as a unique "prototype" despite Patek themselves denying the existence/authenticity of the watch?
Great episode. The other side of the “charity” donation, is the tax write off received by the “donor”. See this all the time at Barrett Jackson car auctions… they still make money off the tax credit.
Very “diplomatic” analysis of the Unicorn Daytona. Not sure the guy who spent $6 million on it would be as gracious. Why didn’t Hodinkee cover this story since these revelations came to light? Maybe ask your friend Danny Milton? 😂
SIMPLE SOLUTION! Car collectors who are into vintage American Muscle cars have a sub-category called "Resto_Mod". Which is a "Restored but Modified" from original car and still can often be very very collectible if the owner -seller makes it known that the particular car is a "resto-mod" and also if the particular"mods" are done tastefully . Most frequently car guys swap out the original motor for an LS GM Corvette motor into almost anything NOT a GM Corvette LoL! Another example is this,..some one acquires a 1965 Ford Mustang which survived a flood or fire or some other calamity . They take said Ford Mustang and install a new Ford motor and disk brakes etc etc and as long as this vehicle is always communicated by the owner/modifier as a "restored-Mod" then its still going to sell for a very very high respectable amount fo money, not as much as an all original unrestored car,..but still a damn lot of money. The issue with watches is that watch collectors have yet to realize the fact that modern technology makes it fairly easy to fake the artisanal aspects and features of mechanical watches and to that fact. Watches that might require a "resto-Mod"level overhaul should simply exist within their own lower priced but still collectible category of the watch collecting hobby
I’m not into vintage, but it seems to me the difference between watch and car restoration in our culture is: Watches: You want to feel where the watch has been and experience (by proxy) the story of the original owner. If restored, it feels like those stories and experiences have been stripped from the watch and thus less desirable. Cars: Cool old car, looks flashy and fantastic, nice to show off. The original owner and experiences rarely come into the picture so restoration doesn’t strip anything away except unwanted materials and enhances the feeling of what it must have been like to drive/buy it new.
Car collectors frequently pay a large premium for vehicles with some type of background "story" wether they have been restored or not. Most often you see collectors paying a lot more for cars which were originally built as race cars and even more money can be transacted if said vehicles have some actual period era track time as competitive race cars ( and a decent number of vintage Ferrari's, Porsche and Jags do) . Also,.speaking to Ferrari,..most Ferrari collectors wont transact a vintage car unless theres some tangible connection the prior and or original owner-driver. And since most Italian exotics aren't driven that often its easy to verify as one guy will buy and keep a Ferrari Daytona for 25+ years and only put 2,000 miles on it,.LoL! Celebrity owned cars sell for a gigantic premium because that automatically represents a "story" about a prior owner. Cars used or seen in Movies or TV shows or even used as magazine test vehicles ( because all the seller has to do is produce a copy of the old magazine issue ) always sell at a premium. What I am saying is that a commodity is a commodity is a commodity and wether or not someone is into watches or cars or vintage aircraft, people ay a lot more when they can "experience " the story of the item they are paying for.
So, your watch stops keeping time. You send it in for service. They say you need a new part in the movement. Are you supposed to tell them to leave not working? Is it different that it’s an internal part as opposed to a dial or hand set?
when I sent my vintage Omega for a movement service, they replaced the mainspring and I got the original mainspring back in a baggie. That's how you do it.
What you may not realize is that this particular watch is in a watch drawer in the UAE or Saudi Arabia where "to have and use" is more important than "to show off".
This was very interesting. I have a Rolex Submariner that may be considered something of a "Frankenwatch" by some, I suppose. It is a two-tone blue dial/bezel that I purchased many years ago, when I was somewhat new to watches. I was in love with these watches, but couldn't really afford a new one at the time. I found one at a really good price on the internet from a jewelry store, and called them up to talk about it. They were very up-front with me and told me it was a conversion from a SS black dial/bezel using parts that they had on hand. I didn't really care, so I went ahead and purchased the watch. I have never regretted it, and I will pass along that information to my heirs - since I am sure I will never sell the watch. I only realized after doing some research that the dial and bezel must have been from a solid gold sub. The earlier subs were either all SS or all 14K gold. The bezel is the earlier flat type and the depth rating on the dial show that these items came from a 14K sub. Ironically, the lower depth rating is actually correct for the model of SS sub that it actually is. As far as I can determine, there was never a two-tone bluesy made with this depth rating. Of course, all the parts are genuine Rolex, and of the same period - they just didn't start life together.
as long as you like it and arent trying to scam people i see nothing wrong with these types of watches. you get something with a more unique look while retaining the quality and branding so why would that be a bad thing unless youre buying these purely for resell? i say buy what you like. just dont destroy the watch putting stupid diamonds all over it. because thats just gross.
Just to add that vintage cars engine & body vin numbers need to match in a good restoration, a modern example is Integra type R's, every part and body pannel needs matching numbers for it to be considered real and worth full value...
some time you need to to the restoration, is the material star to falling apart from some reason the part is no good anymore, is a libility for the rest of the watch. but yes is difficult
Top notch video. Thanks for shedding desperately needed light on a touchy subject. I completely agree. Restoration is great if done right, it just needs to be disclosed. With that said…. It doesn’t change the value a whole lot to me. The key phrase here is done correctly
I recall a previous case a number of years ago that involved HK actor , Shawn Yue ; he has discussed this in a blog as it was also a charity auction who approached him for some watches if he would allocate for the auction . He hasd in his possession an old sub or is it a Daytona I can’t recall of the bat , but he was open that he had the dial replaced with a period correct one as he wanted the perfect look and feel as he had felt it should be , it all ended up stirring up a ton of fleck and backlash was so horrid especially Asian media covering it saying he donated a fake for charity and eventually stirred up enough that he and the auction house canceled the lot . So that’s one such case where despite it being period correct people just couldn’t accept it and it was bad really especially how the media went about trashing Shawn Yue for it . And he has spoken openly about it in his Vlog ( inside out ) on RUclips as well .
Franken watch or not, I feel that because of all the publicity the watch got out of this, the watch will still command a hefty price, down to the publicity 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Even if all 6.5M went to charity, seller would likely still get a tax deduction and so therefore would still receive the financial benefit of approximately 50% of the proceeds. Charity offers no excuse.
Restorations because it’s your favorite wait or your grandfather’s watch or something for personal use I would assume is fine from anyone’s perspective. For instance my wife’s 1920 Hamilton is currently in for some much needed work and it’s her favorite watch and a keeper that would be passed down. Restoration at this level and not for keeping, you would think it devalues the watch. Like buying a Ferrari with a salvage title, but what if it’s a one of one or the last one on earth? What a conundrum.
I know someone who restored a 1967 Corvette. Every part on the car was eventually replaced with an OEM or otherwise re-fabricated part, styled or engineered true to the model. Eventually, after years of restoration, the only original part was the frame. Nobody would say that the car is a fake Corvette.
The closest I can speak to, a Seagull 1963, where the watch from Seagull, and others made that are less than a genuine Seagull. That is certainly not on par with this Rolex, but definitions as applied to a Rolex, individually. Put that much money on table, a heightened conversation and level of concern.
The idea of “original” vs “not original” in restoration is such an interesting topic. It reminds me of two contrasting and opposite philosophical ideas about the idea of what it means to be “original”: 1. The Ship of Theseus 2. Gold Pavilion Temple of Kyoto The Ship of Theseus is a thought experiment about whether an object that has had all of its original components replaced remains the same object. According to legend, Theseus, the mythical Greek founder-king of Athens, had rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the minotaur and then escaped on a ship to Delos. Every year, the Athenians commemorated this legend by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honor Apollo. The question was raised by ancient philosophers: After several centuries of maintenance, if every part of the Ship of Theseus had been replaced, one at a time, was it still the same ship? Meanwhile the Gold Pavillion Temple of Kyoto stems from the story by Douglas Adam’s’ book Last Chance to See: “remembered once, in Japan, having been to see the Gold Pavilion Temple in Kyoto and being mildly surprised at quite how well it had weathered the passage of time since it was first built in the fourteenth century. I was told it hadn’t weathered well at all, and had in fact been burnt to the ground twice in this century. “So it isn’t the original building?” I had asked my Japanese guide. “But yes, of course it is,” he insisted, rather surprised at my question. “But it’s burnt down?” “Yes.” “Twice.” “Many times.” “And rebuilt.” “Of course. It is an important and historic building.” “With completely new materials.” “But of course. It was burnt down.” “So how can it be the same building?” “It is always the same building.” I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself.” It would seem the vintage Watch community shares the view of the Ship of Theseus whereas the vintage Car community shares the view of the Golden Pavillion Temple of Kyoto
Dude , I really enjoy the content but you drag every story so long that I often lose interest and move onto the next video !!! Get to the point already !!!!!
Exactly why I go with newer or new watches. Patina, a least to me, means old and worn out. Just like I don't want patina on the paint of my 1989 Porsche, or leather with rips.
Now, these incorrectly made pushers would have to be redone with accurately made ones. This should be easy enough to do. Now, with regards to vintage Bugatti, all these cars parts were originally numbered for each Type and traceable to a chassis number or rather an assembly number as the number stamped on the chassis frame parts is different from the chassis number on the plate… So when such a car is being sold all of the numbered parts are listed so that authenticity can be verified, in principle. I personally prefer good bitsa (mix of original & remade parts) or replicas as authentic cars become excessively fragile as time passes and parts replacement becomes unavoidable if the car is used.
I am not the only one! I love vintage Rolex(daydates from the 60s and 70s) but I have a hard time pulling the trigger on one because I don't know if it is all the way legit. Thanks for sharing guys! Hope all is well!
I definitely have the collecting gene but you should acquire things for collections with keeping their purpose in mind. The only things I collect with the expectation of just being display pieces and therefore actually caring about all original are things actually made to be display pieces. A vintage watch I want to be able to wear and I want it looking nice (doesn’t need to look new) and I want it working as good as possible. Swap out all the parts you want/need. It doesn’t matter to me, and if it lowers the price even better.
Definition of fraud according to Merriam-Webster: A misrepresentation or concealment with reference to some fact material to a transaction that is made with knowledge of its falsity or in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity and with intent to deceive another. Did that happen?
I have an idea. this may seems crazy. If I ever had this rarest piece of watch & its need to repair. I will change it BUT I will keep the original part & show it with the watch that I repair so no one will ever say Its fake. I have the broken original part. I can change back to broken one If I want to
Well, it is a watch. It comes from a famous watch collector. It's been on the most famous watch show. So in itself value is created. These days value is as much, and in the case of vintage more, in the hype as it is in the metal. And maybe there's a whole different explanation altogether... And whoever bought it can probably afford 100 of them and is enjoying this attention.
There’s a difference between a customized piece and one that has its provenance and the watch in this example has lost its provenance. The only reason that it sold for the price that it did was because of its connection the the fundraiser involved.
not uncommon that these large auction houses do any due diligence thru any historical or scientific research. With crown and caliber being connected to hodinkee for example, there is little authority in their vintage marketplace to be 100%.
Very thought-provoking video. Two points. 1. Caveat emptor + the authenticity disclaimer at the beginning of every piece of promo material from Philips regarding its auctions = you and I and anyone else posting comments on a RUclips video probably should NOT be playing this auction game. 2. I would bet $$$$ to donuts that Mr. Goldberger, Rolex or Phillips purchased the Unicorn. The purchaser would be the aggrieved party, so buying the Unicorn and keeping it quiet would (at least in theory), eliminate any potential liability for a misrepresentation claim. Also, it would be a good way to bury the story for good (at least in theory).
Conservation preserves value in historic pieces, not restoration. The conservator stabilizes the piece and replaces what's missing using reversible processes. A lot more to it than that, obviously. Restoration should be disclosed.
So how does fixing a watch make it less valuable? In 50 years are people still going to freak out if you replace the dial. How about 100 years from now? This is a problem right now, in the future not so much because eventually you will have to replace something on the watch or just keep it in a box as a paperweight. This is defiantly a first world problem.
these auction houses are dodgy (not straight) to some extent, the fact that they can constantly increase the bidding on some of these watches. Also, I have heard of arranged biddings
I’m terrified of fakes , I was given a Rolex watch by a very close friend and it turned out to be fake, he was absolutely disgusted and it turned out he’d been sold the watch by a crooked dealer long story short he was duly compensated. My friend was really hurt and embarrassed that he had given me a fake, I was fine with it because he did nothing wrong and it was the thought that counted but it left me with a very bad taste and very wary about fine watches
Love the video, good hear your views. Issues everywhere. Words that come to mind are Transparency and Honesty. 1. If I am paying $6.5m - then I am doing to do a fair bit of due diligence - so buyer beware ! 2. The Auction house - their reputation is now shredded, they should be making sure the item is right. 3. The Seller - has no morals either, just be honest and straight with people. This is why I only buy new watches from the AD - Federico was talking about fake watches (and he had to check the movement to make sure) - this just means the average person like me has no way of picking a fake. And if I spent anything on a fake watch I would not be happy.
Good story telling and a great topic for us watch nerds. My thought goes to a S. Korean company on Ebay that must buy up vintage Omega's and then does a complete restoration of the watches. They are beautiful in every way, the dials look to be the best in the game. But you know they are not original and the company states that the dials are in fact refinished. I can't say for sure if this S. Korean watch restorer is doing a great service or hurting the vintage market for their own profit.
I stopped watching after there wasn't a scandal also this isn't relatable to most people cause who really cares if someone isn't happy with their Rolex being not period correct sounds like a waste of time and energy
This is like a rare car, I understand putting remanufactured parts on a one of a kind item but you cant advertise it as original, it would never happen in the car world and it should definitely be advertised that the watch was restored and what parts were replaced.
If someone is capable to reproduce a bezel is is able to reproduce a pusher like original. On an unique white gold model how can you say that the Rolex employee didn’t do it like this ? Whereas if it is a reproduction why would the pusher been made different ?
It was the auction house's responsibility to figure all this out and disclose it prior to sale. Truly disgraceful on their part.
The truth is if u read the terms & disclosure, it essentially points that the onus is on you to determine authenticity when u buy from xx houses
@@revanence But, if you want people to keep coming back and spending millions of dollars at your auctions, you don't want a reputation for misrepresenting the items you are selling.
@@mrcom4359 yes I agree. Just pointing out that the houses have covered their asses clearly. I have no affliation w the houses
@@revanence I agree. It does seem almost criminal that they can put in their terms "you can't trust me" and shed all legal responsibility. It's like if I had an agreement with a bank that I knew that they wouldn't read, and I included "it's okay if I rob you."
And by you/your I meant they/their.
I think I read that the same dude was at the helm of the auction houses each time it sold... he wouldn’t known the original condition and value.
I think that this is precisely one of the reasons people are scared (myself included) to jump into the vintage watch space. People are not trustworthy, by and large, and spending hard earned money on something that has a high probability of not being 100% authentic is seriously concerning.
👍
Couldn’t agree more!
You buy the seller and even then you need to be careful.
People are always saying prices on Theo & Harris and comparative sites are overpriced for vintage but they have expertise in authenticating and a reputation to lose. Buying on eBay or Chrono24 is just a risk I am not willing to take.
This is why even Bucherer doesn't want to deal with vintage Rolex for the Certified Pre-owned program.
@@Adskie this! T&H won’t sell you anything sketchy, or broken. Their reputation is gold
Happened to me last summer. I received an Oyster as present from Dad 15 years ago - I did not like the dial at that time and asked the retailer - the Rolex boutique in Geneva Rue de la Fontaine 3 - to change the dial, which they did. Ten years later, I brought the watch for a service in the same Rolex boutique (which had in the meantime change management) and was told that they could not service the watch (which is done at Rolex HQ in Geneva) unless I accepted to change the dial back to the "original" one - and at my cost.... It seems Rolex are enforcing a stricter policy now and only service "original" watches. I tried to argue with Rolex HQ in vain. In the end I had to service the watch with an independent watchmaker (lucky enough there is no shortage of competent ones in Geneva). I still found the experience very frustrating - being told by the same boutique that did the modification that my watch was not serviceable as a result of a modification that they willingly did....
I am very familiar with the Rolex store - Chrono Time - and I have a lot of reservation about how they conduct their business since the change of management about 3 years ago. I am wondering, if at the time you changed the dial, they let you keep your dad’s initial dial.
I managed to find an early mk1 1675 case in the 1.6m range, spent months researching and sourcing all the right period correct parts for that serial range, even found a genuine refinished mk1 dial, and put it together myself. while it's not exactly all original, i hold it in great pride and absolutely love it. just be upfront about it, kind of like a project car/restoration in my head. even the 6251h and c+i fit down to the exact 1967 case year :)
Great attitude and I'd say most collectors are amenable to this kind of thinking.
That’s fantastic!
that is a really cool project
We are living in a world where people demand for perfect piece that stand out. No one want to hear word like polished/lightly polished instead they want something like worn with passion and worn with care. They want reassurance.. The words are very important and money matters at the end of the day.
totally agree, funny how collectors are in the watch world with parts being changed when they are period and correct to the actual watch? There would not be a lot of classic cars left if we took the view of a lot of watch collectors with this weird perception of originality.
I have no issue with restoration of vintage watches with period correct parts. Its just a necessity with these objects in some cases.
The problem with this daytona besides the obvious intent to not disclose what was done is what is period correct for a essentially piece unique?
The is a complete made up watch with spare parts and some parts are even in question if their genuine rolex.
John Mayor had that $multi-million complaint with dealer Robert Maron in LA after Mayor learned several of his important Rolexes had “service parts” in the movement - I think things settled down a little after cooler heads prevailed - may be a good story to followup on….
You're spot on. The guy's a slime ball, and to then hide behind the "Charity " B/S, like you said, he hasn't said if the 6 mill went to charity, or a percentage, then what percentage. Those pushers are dog shit bad, he had time to tell who needed to know about the truth on the watch. Remember, someone's paid 6 million for this watch, I wonder how he/she feels?
Not Happy
I wonder if he contacted Phillips about it .
Agreed, and even this channel is making excuses. I collect antique fans. Almost every valuable antique fan has been tampered with at some level. The Rolex is a Frankenwatch. C'mon, those pushers are fake. Call a spade a spade. This watch would've never fetched millions. These guys are making excuses. They just don't want to be blacklisted.
@@davidhunternyc1 exactly. Imagine paying 6million for thst Frankenwatch, i will sue Aurel Bach Grandmother, his dog, the auction house, the whole staff, everybody's getting sued. U know whats funny? When that watch was sold i wrote a dm to his IG (John's) a long dm, thanking him for donating all that money and blah blah....he wrote back a crossed hand emoji....with this new info, he probably pocketed a lot of that money, i know it.
@@fungus_am0nguz644 A watch hodgepodged together with all Rolex parts is still a fake watch. This watch isn't even all Rolex. Who knows how fake parts are in this watch? Why are Theo and Harris making f*ing excuses. This watch watch is a $20,000 watch, at best. Now, because of the scandal, it's probably worth $100,000 just for being infamous. Eric Garner gets murdered for selling cigarettes on the street but rich people collude to steal $6.5 million and perfectly fine. There needs to be a criminal investigation.
Original bracelet - replaced no big deal
Original dial - replaced no big deal
Original crown replaced no big deal
Original pushers - replaced no big deal
Original bezel - replaced no big deal
Glass - not mentioned, but I would guess replaced too
What about the hands, if the dial and bezel and buttons were replaced....
60000000 for charity also smells like fake
Someone has been royally gang-banged here
The problem is this watch was likely never a complete watch, but a prototype. Something to test the waters for a white gold case. These prototypes would come with a case, movement and some version of a dial (often from an existing different reference), but likely had no bezel and only temporary pushers.
Most such prototypes never make it out of HQ, but over the years some older ones made their way to the market. This one seems to have been turned into a full franken watch.
That was also my thinking...
Your on point with this comment there's no other explanation
@@ryanmrowka8970 yes there is. Fake “Made in Italy” parts!
This is why I hate the pandemic. Before people didn’t know what a Rolex Sub even looked like and had no clue what Patek was. I had an Aquanaut, 5711/1R, many other nice watches that could get for below MSRP any day. Now they are all over priced “Look At Me” pieces that can’t be found for less than my left testicle.
I don’t even own a simple Sub at the moment because of the over values prices being put on these watches and it makes me sad because I’ve always enjoyed them for what they are, not what they represent.
I purchased my first Sub back in 2005 as a gift to myself for graduation. So have been into watches way longer than these new fashion look at me people that have destroyed the industry.
It’s exactly the same for vintage racing cars. Some sellers remain extremely discreet about the car true story, would not comment and even steer well clear from the auction whilst the auctions houses promote the sale… with full on fanfare ! Some excellent replicas are made from recycled period correct metals then “rediscovered” from a barn, scrapyard, etc… with a good story to boot and sold that way. Both are acting with the objective of maximising profits. Funny things happen when the genuine car returns to the light with irrefutable provenance traceability 🤣😂
There's one party that we're forgetting here, Rolex. If Rolex weren't so tight-lipped, interacted with their community like a 21st century brand and stopped this stuff upper lip act they could open a department to handle exactly this, somewhere for auction houses to authenticate a watch that may be in question, they don't even have to make it openly available, just select auction houses they could partner with. Yes the auction house fucked up in this particular scenario but we wouldn't even be having the conversation if Rolex did their part to maintain the integrity of the brand.
What do we think about prototyping as a reason?
He allegedly stated he did restore it to it’s “former glory”of course after it was called out about it being a fraken watch, according to Perezcope back in 2018 article. But it does really need to be disclosed especially when that kind of money is being invested.
Goldberger didn’t tell the true story because that story doesn’t make the watch worth $6.5 million
Outstanding episode, so interesting and as a Porsche guy and a watch guy I can see both sides of this!!
I do also, I'd like to see this watch sent to Rolex & see what they say & we could end all the speculation .
As a vintage watch of that value, it’s a collector piece and won’t be worn. Is it worth more all original in disrepair, or restored and working?
The Ship of Theseus:
A ship leaves dock and sails off to sea. While sailing and never docking the crew begins to replace every single part of the boat. Every plank, mast, ropes, rudder - everything.
When everything is replaced it sails back into dock.
Is it the same boat?
This is an old thought experiment and philosphical question which illustrates how this question of originality, this question of identity has been discussed since ancient times.
"restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise" - Phillips Auction House
It's a frankenwatch. It doesn't matter if you're a world renowned collector or a dodgy eBay seller. If he disclosed the restoration before the sale that's fine but he didn't. Fraud is fraud.
My own personal view.... For a vintage watch that was originally mass produced, I really wouldn't mind if it had been put together from parts that all originally came from different individual watches, as long as 1) all of those parts were original and from the correct production period (not necessarily made in exactly the same year, 2) there weren't any detectable mismatches that couldn't have occurred in initial production (e.g. incompatible serial numbers), and 3) there weren't any blatant mismatches in the condition of the parts (e.g. a bezel that was much more worn than the case it was fitted to). Beyond these things, originality is a wholly abstract concept - it would be impossible for anyone to tell that the watch wasn't entirely original unless they had supporting information. I realise I'm probably in a minority in this respect, however.
I share your view. Provided that when reselling - this information is included.
@@BaritoneMike Yes, if you are aware of it. Of course you might not be, and it could be impossible to tell... In which case, does it matter? It does raise a philosophically interesting moral dilemma for a seller. If you were a moral utilitarian and you knew that it would never be possible to tell that a watch had been assembled from parts originally from different watches, would there be any harm in not revealing this information? The buyer (and any subsequent buyers) would never have any reason to doubt the total authenticity, and would be entirely happy. I'm not advocating this approach, but you could make an argument for it.
@@neil4701 perhaps - but is it ever truly indiscernable? Regardless, in this case it definitely *is* visible, and the former owner more than likely knew about it and why he kept the watch details obscure.
There's no grey area here in my opinion and the whole discussion, while having some merit (better repair than discard), is moot at its core. When there's mods - you inform to the best of your knowledge, period. And whether the market accepts it or not - it's up to the buyers, but omitting information is *surely* not the fix.
@@BaritoneMike Yes, that's my personal opinion too, but I'm also just interested in the philosophical side of it. I think a reasonable person could argue it the other way if they wanted to (not for this example, but for others).
Say you have two watches of the same model made in the same year, one with a nice unpolished case and clean dial but heavily scratched or corroded hands, the other with case and dial in poor condition but perfect hands. The model is unlumed. If you swapped the hands and put the good ones on the nice watch, I can't really see how it would ever be possible to discern that this had been done. Certainly not with any confidence. Unless there was some sort of record in the public sphere indicating that the watch had once had scratched / corroded hands. So a utilitarian could argue that there is no moral value in declaring the modification, potentially(?) reducing the value of the watch and the contentment of the next owner (although I suppose he might need need to show that this owner was more content than another hypothetical owner who had obtained the watch with scratched hands at a lower price.. ;-))
@@neil4701 I get your point, but I think the issue is not with disclosing the information, but with what people do with that information. Ergo: you should be honest and sincere about it, the effect that info has on the watch is up to the community (keeping the price the same or not).
In the end, if you need to question whether something is ethical or not - it very likely means it isn't (to you).
We're having an argument with a Rolex AD at this very moment over an unwanted dial and hands replacement on a Datejust.
To be fair, the Authenticity of the watch does not fall on the seller. Lots of people own Frankenstein watches and have no idea; it's on the "professionals" at the auction house to be the gatekeepers of the "genuine" moniker.
So far in the last year or two we've had:
Fake Picasso: Sunflowers
Fake DaVinci: Mundi
Fake Rolex: 6265
Fake Cartier: Crash
And that's just the big ticket items we know about because they had the most eyes on them.
Stop blindly trusting auction houses. They just want the highest hammer. They are thieves.
In the collector car world, there are categories for describing the path taken by a particular car. There are original, unrestored cars. There are Survivors, which have not been restored but may have had repair or replacement of some parts over time. There are fully restored cars, which should have a documented basis in originality but may have been massively reconstructed and/or rebuilt, refinished to near perfection. Then there are Restomods, which are unique collections of parts, some old, some modern to make a car that looks old but drives much newer. Watch collectors should settle on some series of buckets like this. The best examples would be certified and documented by the original manufacturer at some cost.
Please forgive my ignorance as I am just learning about vintage watch collecting. For me the difference in quality of the pushers between the comparison photos really stands out but just looking at the watch by itself the winding crown stands out more to me than the pushers. Is it Stainless? Does Rolex not use white gold crowns? Like I said I'm new to watches but to me it looks terrible.
People should give all information possible for watches being sold. Holding back info is shady and deceptive.
Hodinkee shares culpability, they are notorious for propping up watches before they go to auction (paul newman, Marlon Brando, etc) OR they release their own limited edition collaboration of the same watch. Literal insider trading!
Speaking of restoration… I have a vintage Cartier Santos Carree and when I had Cartier service it, the bracelet broke into 3 pieces- the pin system was broken on two links. Any recommendations of where I can get it repaired? Cartier only offered to replace with new, but the new bracelet is not the same and I want to preserve the one I have since the watch itself is in great shape. Seems funny that they want to put a different period bracelet in the classic watch. I need a watch maker or jeweler who could repair the old links I think, or at least someone with experience working on vintage Cartier.
Many vintage patek dials are changed but it isn't talked about enough or even noticed.
The ship of Theseus is a paradox regarding identity over time. One version, positing a scenario in which all the parts of a ship are replaced gradually and one at a time, poses this question: Is the vessel that exists after the replacements the same ship as the vessel that existed before the replacements?
Great point - fine art that has been over restored or heavily restored, if known, will decrease in value, because it’s not original even if it appears to be on the surface. One might assume the same with rare watches. Classic cars on the other hand, have to be safe to drive, so OEM parts and vintage parts are ok to a degree. It really depends on the buyer and how they intend to use it. In a car museum, you want the hood to be open and to see the original parts and how they worked together in design. If the classic car is a weekend driver on the road, you need fully operating gear, so you may allow Contemporary swaps. In your conversation here, the bottom line quality for being “Fake” = deceit or lack of disclosure. I completely agree on the restoration conversation. I would happily wear restore vintage if I knew that’s what I paid for. Thanks for bringing up this important topic.
Really it's time for a mindset shift across the hobby where a respectful, transparent restoration should be just as desirable as an "all original" piece, for the same reason this is the case in cars: the restored piece is one that will actually work. If anything restoration is an art in itself and the documentation and story of how a historic piece is lovingly restored should just add to the provenance and value of the piece; now we can appreciate how literal generations of talented craftsmen and enthusiasts have all left their mark on this artifact of living history. But that's not at all what happened to here, J Goldberger just went radio silent and we're supposed to trust the highly suspect provenance of the replacement parts on his name alone.
I have a vintage Rolex from 1972 , the year I was born . My father bought it for me and gave it to me on my wedding day . One of the greatest things I own
Damnnn nice, what a great wedding gift and story, my father is going to give to me his 5513, all original but i got to source a correct period Oyster bracelet, since it has a Jubilee one (lol i dont even know how that happened, maybe from a GMT??) It looks rugged, a lived in Sub with battle scratches in the glass and lugs, kinda rusty hands but nothing that a lil facelift cant fix to make that face with its amazing patina pop. I love no date Subs.
I worked with a guy (a Park Ranger) and noticed he was wearing a Pepsi GMT Master, it was absolutely battered, massive scratching all over the bezel and glass, so bad you could hardly tell the time. I asked (about 3 years ago) if I could buy it for £500. He said " this old thing? I've had it since 1973 when I bought it, I don't think I could ever sell it, I've worn it for work every day". He retired and I saw him by chance about 6 months ago. I asked about the watch and he proudly showed me the same watch that he'd had "repaired" with a new bezel and glass. "The jeweller who repaired it says it's now worth £20,000."
I could have cried.
The man's still made a ton of money, and he doesn't care, he wants to use the watch as a watch and read the time, which he was obviously struggling to do. he's never gonna sell it, so there's no problem on what it could have been worth....Good story though✌
Be honest, you only could have cried because you didn't rip the guy off.
@@chrisbrown6494 😂👏🏼
Great analysis guys - it is refreshing to see young men such as yourselves have a moral compass from which to assess the situation. IMO It is likely he choose the charity path to sale to mitigate the watches pedigree.
I am shocked at the lack of precision in the duplicate parts. - I was a machinist working thru college and you can certainly with effort remake parts mechanical parts - using the vintage process. I am also shocked in the few instances with watch repair at the lack of the ability to do reasonable restoration - such as re-plating parts - where they push for replacement.
Even original parts are not always a possibility, when you have an old car that is not super popular, sometimes if you need a part, that part might not exist anymore, anywhere, what to do? Take your grandfather car to the junkyard? No, using newly manufactured parts because there are none original to be found, it's completely acceptable in my opinion, but yes, there should be disclosure when selling it, always.
I think this is one of the best videos and discussion so far in the channel. I think its a very thin and grey area in the vintage world for this topic. I think it comes down to ethics and perception. Its interesting that in some other industries thing like this may seem ok but in the watch worth its still debatable.
Changing parts using a genuine donor watch is perfectly fine. Watch snobs can just crawl back into their hole.
This reminds me of a comparable incident that happened in the Classic Auto world with an Auto Union (Audi) race car from the 1930s that was pulled from auction at the last minute because of questions around it's originality. Christy's did it's due diligence, and it turned out the chassis was not the original race winning one, and this would then be disclosed. The auction house should definitely have addressed the questions before the sale.
So perezcope was right?
With cars there's still "numbers matching" which is better than "period correct".
With watches there is "let's try to make a super rare version out of an ordinary one with period-correct and sometimes reproductions to rip off people at an auction, of which the auction house is typically complicit."
I had a 1665 comex sea dweller 1978 , in 2008 I took it to an ad to be sent to rolex for a service, I told them under no circumstances is the face or hands to be replaced, I got the watch back with the original dial and hands
It's a nicely done franken Daytona. Might be the immaterial worth to someone that it comes from Goldberger... But 6.5M for a franken watch is still rough.
Good point about restoration of classic paintings. Yes, it has to be done, as the original is deteriorating and will disappear before long.
If you go to Milan to see "The Last Supper" by Leonardo da Vinci, you won't see da Vinci's work. You'll see restorers' work. His work was covered up centuries ago. A restored classic car is the same: many parts were remanufactured, not polished and reinstalled. The leather is new, the rubber is new, the paint is new, parts that were too far gone are remade--things the factory never handled.
Which auction house were the ones that sold the Frankenstein PP Aquanaut with the Comet Nautilus dial and movement as a unique "prototype" despite Patek themselves denying the existence/authenticity of the watch?
Great episode. The other side of the “charity” donation, is the tax write off received by the “donor”. See this all the time at Barrett Jackson car auctions… they still make money off the tax credit.
Very “diplomatic” analysis of the Unicorn Daytona. Not sure the guy who spent $6 million on it would be as gracious. Why didn’t Hodinkee cover this story since these revelations came to light? Maybe ask your friend Danny Milton? 😂
Overly diplomatic I would say…
SIMPLE SOLUTION!
Car collectors who are into vintage American Muscle cars have a sub-category called "Resto_Mod".
Which is a "Restored but Modified" from original car and still can often be very very collectible if the owner -seller makes it known that the particular car is a "resto-mod" and also if the particular"mods" are done tastefully .
Most frequently car guys swap out the original motor for an LS GM Corvette motor into almost anything NOT a GM Corvette LoL!
Another example is this,..some one acquires a 1965 Ford Mustang which survived a flood or fire or some other calamity .
They take said Ford Mustang and install a new Ford motor and disk brakes etc etc and as long as this vehicle is always communicated by the owner/modifier as a "restored-Mod" then its still going to sell for a very very high respectable amount fo money, not as much as an all original unrestored car,..but still a damn lot of money.
The issue with watches is that watch collectors have yet to realize the fact that modern technology makes it fairly easy to fake the artisanal aspects and features of mechanical watches and to that fact. Watches that might require a "resto-Mod"level overhaul should simply exist within their own lower priced but still collectible category of the watch collecting hobby
Hey Christian! What watch band is that you’re wearing??
What's the difference between this and a rep watch? Other than price
I’m not into vintage, but it seems to me the difference between watch and car restoration in our culture is:
Watches:
You want to feel where the watch has been and experience (by proxy) the story of the original owner. If restored, it feels like those stories and experiences have been stripped from the watch and thus less desirable.
Cars:
Cool old car, looks flashy and fantastic, nice to show off. The original owner and experiences rarely come into the picture so restoration doesn’t strip anything away except unwanted materials and enhances the feeling of what it must have been like to drive/buy it new.
As a prewar racing cars collector I can tell you with certainty that what you wrote for watches also applies to cars…
@@patrickjean-philippe7679 always exceptions
Car collectors frequently pay a large premium for vehicles with some type of background "story" wether they have been restored or not.
Most often you see collectors paying a lot more for cars which were originally built as race cars and even more money can be transacted if said vehicles have some actual period era track time as competitive race cars ( and a decent number of vintage Ferrari's, Porsche and Jags do) .
Also,.speaking to Ferrari,..most Ferrari collectors wont transact a vintage car unless theres some tangible connection the prior and or original owner-driver. And since most Italian exotics aren't driven that often its easy to verify as one guy will buy and keep a Ferrari Daytona for 25+ years and only put 2,000 miles on it,.LoL!
Celebrity owned cars sell for a gigantic premium because that automatically represents a "story" about a prior owner.
Cars used or seen in Movies or TV shows or even used as magazine test vehicles ( because all the seller has to do is produce a copy of the old magazine issue ) always sell at a premium.
What I am saying is that a commodity is a commodity is a commodity and wether or not someone is into watches or cars or vintage aircraft, people ay a lot more when they can "experience " the story of the item they are paying for.
So, your watch stops keeping time. You send it in for service. They say you need a new part in the movement. Are you supposed to tell them to leave not working? Is it different that it’s an internal part as opposed to a dial or hand set?
when I sent my vintage Omega for a movement service, they replaced the mainspring and I got the original mainspring back in a baggie. That's how you do it.
Love the sponsor-free video! Nice analysis of this issue guys!
What you may not realize is that this particular watch is in a watch drawer in the UAE or Saudi Arabia where "to have and use" is more important than "to show off".
This was very interesting. I have a Rolex Submariner that may be considered something of a "Frankenwatch" by some, I suppose. It is a two-tone blue dial/bezel that I purchased many years ago, when I was somewhat new to watches. I was in love with these watches, but couldn't really afford a new one at the time. I found one at a really good price on the internet from a jewelry store, and called them up to talk about it. They were very up-front with me and told me it was a conversion from a SS black dial/bezel using parts that they had on hand. I didn't really care, so I went ahead and purchased the watch. I have never regretted it, and I will pass along that information to my heirs - since I am sure I will never sell the watch. I only realized after doing some research that the dial and bezel must have been from a solid gold sub. The earlier subs were either all SS or all 14K gold. The bezel is the earlier flat type and the depth rating on the dial show that these items came from a 14K sub. Ironically, the lower depth rating is actually correct for the model of SS sub that it actually is. As far as I can determine, there was never a two-tone bluesy made with this depth rating. Of course, all the parts are genuine Rolex, and of the same period - they just didn't start life together.
as long as you like it and arent trying to scam people i see nothing wrong with these types of watches. you get something with a more unique look while retaining the quality and branding so why would that be a bad thing unless youre buying these purely for resell? i say buy what you like. just dont destroy the watch putting stupid diamonds all over it. because thats just gross.
Just to add that vintage cars engine & body vin numbers need to match in a good restoration, a modern example is Integra type R's, every part and body pannel needs matching numbers for it to be considered real and worth full value...
some time you need to to the restoration, is the material star to falling apart from some reason the part is no good anymore, is a libility for the rest of the watch. but yes is difficult
Top notch video. Thanks for shedding desperately needed light on a touchy subject. I completely agree. Restoration is great if done right, it just needs to be disclosed. With that said…. It doesn’t change the value a whole lot to me. The key phrase here is done correctly
I recall a previous case a number of years ago that involved HK actor , Shawn Yue ; he has discussed this in a blog as it was also a charity auction who approached him for some watches if he would allocate for the auction . He hasd in his possession an old sub or is it a Daytona I can’t recall of the bat , but he was open that he had the dial replaced with a period correct one as he wanted the perfect look and feel as he had felt it should be , it all ended up stirring up a ton of fleck and backlash was so horrid especially Asian media covering it saying he donated a fake for charity and eventually stirred up enough that he and the auction house canceled the lot . So that’s one such case where despite it being period correct people just couldn’t accept it and it was bad really especially how the media went about trashing Shawn Yue for it . And he has spoken openly about it in his Vlog ( inside out ) on RUclips as well .
Crown is surely steel too? Looks glaringly different colour wise.
Franken watch or not, I feel that because of all the publicity the watch got out of this, the watch will still command a hefty price, down to the publicity 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Even if all 6.5M went to charity, seller would likely still get a tax deduction and so therefore would still receive the financial benefit of approximately 50% of the proceeds. Charity offers no excuse.
Restorations because it’s your favorite wait or your grandfather’s watch or something for personal use I would assume is fine from anyone’s perspective. For instance my wife’s 1920 Hamilton is currently in for some much needed work and it’s her favorite watch and a keeper that would be passed down. Restoration at this level and not for keeping, you would think it devalues the watch. Like buying a Ferrari with a salvage title, but what if it’s a one of one or the last one on earth? What a conundrum.
I know someone who restored a 1967 Corvette. Every part on the car was eventually replaced with an OEM or otherwise re-fabricated part, styled or engineered true to the model. Eventually, after years of restoration, the only original part was the frame. Nobody would say that the car is a fake Corvette.
The closest I can speak to, a Seagull 1963, where the watch from Seagull, and others made that are less than
a genuine Seagull. That is certainly not on par with this Rolex, but definitions as applied to a Rolex, individually.
Put that much money on table, a heightened conversation and level of concern.
The idea of “original” vs “not original” in restoration is such an interesting topic. It reminds me of two contrasting and opposite philosophical ideas about the idea of what it means to be “original”:
1. The Ship of Theseus
2. Gold Pavilion Temple of Kyoto
The Ship of Theseus is a thought experiment about whether an object that has had all of its original components replaced remains the same object. According to legend, Theseus, the mythical Greek founder-king of Athens, had rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the minotaur and then escaped on a ship to Delos. Every year, the Athenians commemorated this legend by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honor Apollo. The question was raised by ancient philosophers: After several centuries of maintenance, if every part of the Ship of Theseus had been replaced, one at a time, was it still the same ship?
Meanwhile the Gold Pavillion Temple of Kyoto stems from the story by Douglas Adam’s’ book Last Chance to See:
“remembered once, in Japan, having been to see the Gold Pavilion Temple in Kyoto and being mildly surprised at quite how well it had weathered the passage of time since it was first built in the fourteenth century. I was told it hadn’t weathered well at all, and had in fact been burnt to the ground twice in this century. “So it isn’t the original building?” I had asked my Japanese guide.
“But yes, of course it is,” he insisted, rather surprised at my question.
“But it’s burnt down?”
“Yes.”
“Twice.”
“Many times.”
“And rebuilt.”
“Of course. It is an important and historic building.”
“With completely new materials.”
“But of course. It was burnt down.”
“So how can it be the same building?”
“It is always the same building.”
I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself.”
It would seem the vintage Watch community shares the view of the Ship of Theseus whereas the vintage Car community shares the view of the Golden Pavillion Temple of Kyoto
Dude , I really enjoy the content but you drag every story so long that I often lose interest and move onto the next video !!! Get to the point already !!!!!
Did he ever disclose what charity the funds were donated to? I don’t recall.
Exactly why I go with newer or new watches. Patina, a least to me, means old and worn out. Just like I don't want patina on the paint of my 1989 Porsche, or leather with rips.
can't the case and pushers be carbon dated?
This is literally the Ship of Theseus for watch aficionados.
This is literally Trigger's broom!
Now, these incorrectly made pushers would have to be redone with accurately made ones. This should be easy enough to do.
Now, with regards to vintage Bugatti, all these cars parts were originally numbered for each Type and traceable to a chassis number or rather an assembly number as the number stamped on the chassis frame parts is different from the chassis number on the plate… So when such a car is being sold all of the numbered parts are listed so that authenticity can be verified, in principle. I personally prefer good bitsa (mix of original & remade parts) or replicas as authentic cars become excessively fragile as time passes and parts replacement becomes unavoidable if the car is used.
I am not the only one! I love vintage Rolex(daydates from the 60s and 70s) but I have a hard time pulling the trigger on one because I don't know if it is all the way legit. Thanks for sharing guys! Hope all is well!
I definitely have the collecting gene but you should acquire things for collections with keeping their purpose in mind. The only things I collect with the expectation of just being display pieces and therefore actually caring about all original are things actually made to be display pieces. A vintage watch I want to be able to wear and I want it looking nice (doesn’t need to look new) and I want it working as good as possible. Swap out all the parts you want/need. It doesn’t matter to me, and if it lowers the price even better.
Definition of fraud according to Merriam-Webster: A misrepresentation or concealment with reference to some fact material to a transaction that is made with knowledge of its falsity or in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity and with intent to deceive another. Did that happen?
I have an idea. this may seems crazy. If I ever had this rarest piece of watch & its need to repair. I will change it BUT I will keep the original part & show it with the watch that I repair so no one will ever say Its fake. I have the broken original part. I can change back to broken one If I want to
i'm sure Hodinkee will cover this in-depth and impartially with quotes from Goldberger and all other involved parties [snerk]
See how far you get in the comments section on the relevant hodinkee article
I would contend that the auction house and seller were in cahoots. (Or) the influence of one party over the other suppressed divulging the real story.
These videos are great to help me fall asleep. Better than a lullaby.
Well, it is a watch. It comes from a famous watch collector. It's been on the most famous watch show. So in itself value is created. These days value is as much, and in the case of vintage more, in the hype as it is in the metal. And maybe there's a whole different explanation altogether... And whoever bought it can probably afford 100 of them and is enjoying this attention.
There’s a difference between a customized piece and one that has its provenance and the watch in this example has lost its provenance. The only reason that it sold for the price that it did was because of its connection the the fundraiser involved.
not uncommon that these large auction houses do any due diligence thru any historical or scientific research. With crown and caliber being connected to hodinkee for example, there is little authority in their vintage marketplace to be 100%.
Maybe buyers nitpick on replacement part watches to intentionally knock down the price of an otherwise decent piece.
Very thought-provoking video. Two points. 1. Caveat emptor + the authenticity disclaimer at the beginning of every piece of promo material from Philips regarding its auctions = you and I and anyone else posting comments on a RUclips video probably should NOT be playing this auction game. 2. I would bet $$$$ to donuts that Mr. Goldberger, Rolex or Phillips purchased the Unicorn. The purchaser would be the aggrieved party, so buying the Unicorn and keeping it quiet would (at least in theory), eliminate any potential liability for a misrepresentation claim. Also, it would be a good way to bury the story for good (at least in theory).
Excellent journalism Christian. Very troubling indeed. It’s instances like this that will make the Rolex CPO program hugely successful.
The Rolex CPO was purely created to generate cash, thus far it does not makes any difference between a 100% original vintage watch and a Franken one.
Perezscope does some great research!
Conservation preserves value in historic pieces, not restoration. The conservator stabilizes the piece and replaces what's missing using reversible processes. A lot more to it than that, obviously. Restoration should be disclosed.
So how does fixing a watch make it less valuable? In 50 years are people still going to freak out if you replace the dial. How about 100 years from now? This is a problem right now, in the future not so much because eventually you will have to replace something on the watch or just keep it in a box as a paperweight. This is defiantly a first world problem.
these auction houses are dodgy (not straight) to some extent, the fact that they can constantly increase the bidding on some of these watches. Also, I have heard of arranged biddings
I’m terrified of fakes , I was given a Rolex watch by a very close friend and it turned out to be fake, he was absolutely disgusted and it turned out he’d been sold the watch by a crooked dealer long story short he was duly compensated. My friend was really hurt and embarrassed that he had given me a fake, I was fine with it because he did nothing wrong and it was the thought that counted but it left me with a very bad taste and very wary about fine watches
Love the video, good hear your views. Issues everywhere. Words that come to mind are Transparency and Honesty.
1. If I am paying $6.5m - then I am doing to do a fair bit of due diligence - so buyer beware !
2. The Auction house - their reputation is now shredded, they should be making sure the item is right.
3. The Seller - has no morals either, just be honest and straight with people.
This is why I only buy new watches from the AD - Federico was talking about fake watches (and he had to check the movement to make sure) - this just means the average person like me has no way of picking a fake. And if I spent anything on a fake watch I would not be happy.
Good post. Very balanced and relevant comparisons to car market (and art)
How do charity auctions even work taxwise? Does the seller get a tax deduction in value of the auction price?
“6.5 milly for the franken Rolly” - Jay Z’s new upcoming bar
Hehe
Good story telling and a great topic for us watch nerds. My thought goes to a S. Korean company on Ebay that must buy up vintage Omega's and then does a complete restoration of the watches. They are beautiful in every way, the dials look to be the best in the game. But you know they are not original and the company states that the dials are in fact refinished. I can't say for sure if this S. Korean watch restorer is doing a great service or hurting the vintage market for their own profit.
You changed the dial? 🤣 sounds like a Seinfeld episode!
I stopped watching after there wasn't a scandal also this isn't relatable to most people cause who really cares if someone isn't happy with their Rolex being not period correct sounds like a waste of time and energy
This is like a rare car, I understand putting remanufactured parts on a one of a kind item but you cant advertise it as original, it would never happen in the car world and it should definitely be advertised that the watch was restored and what parts were replaced.
If someone is capable to reproduce a bezel is is able to reproduce a pusher like original. On an unique white gold model how can you say that the Rolex employee didn’t do it like this ? Whereas if it is a reproduction why would the pusher been made different ?
The guy in the glasses looks like he only sources the finest vegan yarn for his sweaters and the highlight of his day is telling people about it .
Why not just include the original parts with the sale? So strange. I don't get it. Would solve the issue.
I love the trolling in the beginning.