Orientalism: we own it [Implications of taking musical ideas from other cultures]
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- Опубликовано: 21 ноя 2024
- Some thoughts on a recent (most excellent) video by Farya Faraji:
• Orientalism: Desert Le...
What are the implications for us?
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![Novitiate by Secret Archives of the Vatican [Nu-Medieval Music]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SqUOVR67hdI/mqdefault.jpg)
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Good for you owning up to the tropes and being earnest about it. I watched Farya's whole video yesterday. Very educational and also very funny.
I unironically enjoyed his "Western" pastiche, or at the very least think something along those lines could have potential for fictional cultures.
Thank you! We have similar issues with "Viking" music (which Farya has covered) and with our own nu-medieval music. In no case is it any kind of authentic musical recreation of an old musical form - but as long we say that and don't pretend we're historical re-enactors, I see no problem. It's only music!
@@secretarchivesofthevatican yea, I feel you. It happens to Latin America too. In Breaking Bad the soulful Patagonian song "Quimey Neuquén" interpreted by Argentinian folk-musician Jose Larralde is played in a key dramatic moment, in Mexico, among some drug-trafficking related shenaningans. Because of course, it's all the same general Latin American vibes, right? Spanish words, poverity, mestizos, drug dealing. That's what we are all about I guess. Regardless both countries being on opposite latitudes of the world.
@@Rodrigo_Vega That is a good example of the producers Farya describes as lazy. I can't imagine that the Breaking Bad producers couldn't find some Mexican composers to come up with something appropriate.
I haven't had the time to watch more than 5 minutes of the original video yet, but as an Arab, I think that the way you put it is great! It appreciates both sides for what they are, thank you!
the blends of different musical cultures often produces the best sound
100%! Blending is one thing but pretending that something is what it isn't is a different thing and I think that's what Farya objects to.
I just watched that dissertation by Faraji. He was kind and gentle enough with honest attempts . I'm glad to say that I was influenced by the Makam and 22 shruti at an early age but used that not to imitate but to go deep into left field with dissonance.
My take is that we love British Rock. We love Japanese Jazz and we like K pop. All derived from us so.. These days your influenced by everything around you all at once. Thanks for your thoughtful response. ❤❤❤
To be fair to him, if someone corrects him on something, he notes it in the comments below the video. I'd say the same as you - we've been exposed to a lot but not enough to totally be able to replicate it or, indeed, to want to. We create OUR music and have definitely played with maqamat and occasionally with middle-eastern tunings. We don't claim it is middle-eastern music, though, which is his point. Some musicians do lazy, predictable takes, and imply that it is actual middle-eastern music. And, as he says, many people are therefore missing out on incredible genuine music from various cultures.
As a music fan and music producer, I've come to a very similar conclusion as you. I consider western "orientalist" music and authentic middle eastern music as very different kinds of music. I enjoy both the real stuff and the fantasy stuff for the unique style and mood they evoke. Mixing different ideas to create something unique and exciting is one of the beautiful things about art! It's certainly not a modern phenomenon either, whenever cultures meet they mix and evolve and expand.
Yes - I think the issue is as Farya Faraji describes. People make one out to be the other and many people believe them. For few years, we've been attempting to be clear about our music being orientalist, being rooted in fantasy, games, films etc even when when we try to use "real" rhythms, tunings, instruments etc. We also try to point people towards authentic music from the parts of the world and the cultures that inspire us.
I totally concur with what you're saying. There is a lot we can learn from modal practices in the cultures you mention, but unless one understands the various languages of these cultures, we cannot pretend to understand the phrasing of Persian radif (for example).
Western musicians i find are not prepared to study the intricacies of this amazing makam system.
And I've studied it enough to know what I don't know. I know I can't accurately replicate it. But...there's no reason why I can't play with the rhythms, the tunings, the sounds, as long as I don't present it to the listener as being from that culture. So, we usually use the term "orientalist" and often the term "fantasy music" to be clear.
The first genre of classical music that really grabbed me was Russian Orientalism - however, it was always clear that it was Russian and not anyone else's take.
Just had a read about it (thank you, I'd never heard the term). Yes, I think the key point is that those composers weren't presenting their works as "this is Persian" or "this is Arabian".
They do it here with our Native culture. It is so sick.
Music and culture is for sharing. Nothing wrong with it. In fact everything right with it. If you are cynically exploiting it for gain that's different.
I think Farya's objection is to people doing just that - exploiting the labels (Arabian, Persian etc) but actually promoting something that has no connection with those cultures.
Does this mean I need to stop listing to Led Zepplin’s Kashmir?
More seriously, as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, where the music still maintains its Middle and Near Eastern origins, I can understand where he’s coming from.
Well, the Zep boys never said "This is Kashmiri music", so there isn't really a problem. Incidentally, if you watch Farya Faraji's video about how medieval music was/should be performed, there's a fascinating clip of a Russian Orthodox rendition of an ancient hymn (European influenced and therefore not melismatic) and the same hymn being performed by one of the Eastern Orthodox churches that is not European influenced and is therefore sung in a fully melismatic middle-eastern style. The Eastern church's version sounds SO much better to me.
I don't know your music, but I have seen the video you are referring to. And I guess as long as you don't call your music "ancient Persian music" or "authentic Arabic song", he is not so mucb referring to you. Take the words of his uncle in the beginning of the video where he says something like: "this is very beautiful. It is not Iranian but I like it." 😂
Indeed! Which is why we try to be clear that what we do is inspired by the music of varous cultures but it is not the music of those cultures.
I appreciated being given a name for it: "orientalist". I barely have enough theory to write more than cowboy songs, so when I wander into the double harmonic scale (don't tell Faraji) it is purely superficial sonically.
It is hard to find the line between cultural appropriation and respectful emulation. It's clear that calling some music "ancient Arabian music" is like calling what Taco Bell sells "Mexican food." But it's not all that far off the mark, emotionally.
Faraji's video starts out like a professorial dissertation, but after while, between the profanity and the repetitive rants about the double harmonic scale and the totally valid point about how Persian/Arabic is like Scottish/Greek, I got the impression he wasn't as accepting of the whole orientalist thing as his words suggested.
I'd love to learn more about the music of all the cultures I'm not familiar with, but I suspect that learning to properly compose Persian or Armenian folk or classical music is for someone younger and healthier than I.
I'm from cowboys and I'll write cowboy songs, and if I write something orientalist, like you, I'll own it.
I hear you! I think the key gripe is people pretending something is something that it isn't and therefore people are missing out on the real. We started using the term "orientalist" about some of our music a good while ago, fully acknowledging that we are not making authentic Persian or Arabian etc music. We point people towards the real too. I also think we all live on one very small planet in a infinite universe so if we use some ideas from another part of our very small planet...then as long as we do so respectfully, so what?
@@secretarchivesofthevatican "the key gripe"-agreed completely! I love orientalist music, but really didn't get what I was missing out on.
I just watched that dissertation by Faraji. He was kind and gentle enough with honest attempts . I'm glad to say that I was influenced by the Makam and 22 shruti at an early age but used that not to imitate but to go deep into left field with dissonance.
My take is that we love British Rock. We love Japanese Jazz and we like K pop. All derived from us so.. These days your influenced by everything around you all at once. Thanks for your thoughtful response. ❤❤❤