I had a science teacher that used to be a huey door gunner in Vietnam. The man used to tell some exceptionally graphic stories to a bunch of 8th graders. As far as I'm aware he's still at it. He was the best teacher I ever had.
Hey Matt! I was a civilian loadmaster in Afghanistan on a civvy helicopter 2010-2011. I did all the work of a door gunner. Minus actually having a door gun lol! Really, really hard work. Moving ass and trash ALL day, in that beautiful Afghanistan summer heat 🙄. My record was 41250Lbs of gear moved by our machine, and by our machine I mean I hand loaded the chopper, in one day. 41250lbs by hand. And if I had a weapon system, I would have that worry about as well. I can only imagine. Cheers B.
@@Spudmuffinz 2 herniated disks in my lower back lol! But, 10/10 best job I ever had, would do again in a heart beat. Such an adventure, flying around a warzone with no weapons and barely any armour 🤣🤣.
@@McTeerZor Fuck, that hurts my soul. I'm barely 22, never served and have one herniated disc. Can't even step off a porch without throwing out my back sometimes. I really wanted to serve, but hearing pesonal accounts like that makes me glad I didn't. I have a bad habit of working too hard sometimes and I'm sure I would have worked my body to hell in there.
I was a Marine crew chief (door gunner) on the UH-1N. Good video Matt, very true! Door gunner part is pretty small percentage of what we actually did. Sometimes it was loads of fun and many times it was just pure misery. Testing aircraft day in and day out for 14 hours everyday sucked. Painting the Monalisa with the Gau-17a was pretty fun I'd say:)
@@UHN-lg3em HMLA-467 Doesn't exist anymore. I went on the last deployment of November's. We came back and they loaded them up on flatbeds. Then it was just the reserve squadrons.
The Canadian Griffons in Afghanistan became infamous among the Taliban. The ones used for convoy and Chinook escort often had a GAU-21 on one door and a 7.62 minigun on the other. A deadly combo.
My dad served half his tour in Vietnam as a M-2 gunner in a CH-46. He rarely talked about it. I did ask him one time why he volunteered to go into aviation from his regular job. He looked at me and shrugged and said, “I was bored..”. Then he went completely quiet.
Sounds like my uncle. Maybe too many buddies flown back in parts? It’s his issue as the last one he flew back (dedicated medic helicopter) was his childhood friend and the son of my grandmother’s childhood friend
If you want to be a door gunner in the u.s. army, sign up to be a 15T or 15U. These are repair/crewman for the uh60 and ch47. Also, veer away from maintenance and more towards a flight company. Keep out of medevac as they do not have crew serve weapons. If you want to go further in the army look into joining 160th SOAR, they have the mini guns.
a friend of mine was a door gunner for hueys in vietnam for a time, they needed one so he volunteered, stupid me asked him how was it compared to the normal patrols, he said it was alright but after the second time crash landing somewhere you get over it
im leaving for the AF basic training this month and heading in for the 1A9 or special missions aviator. i love everything about the mission set and job, cant wait
Fun fact: That guy was originally cast as Gunny Hartman but R. Lee Ermey who was originally hired as a technical consultant being a former D.I. was so good at demonstrating and improvising how to be one, Kubrick recast Hartman with Ermey instead.
I became a door gunner when I was told I was assigned to Aerial Gunnery School right after arriving at my permanent squadron in the US Marines. I had just finished 12 month of Avionics schools and the last thing I imagined was ever needing to know how to assemble and shot a fiddy cal on the CH-46. We ended up deployed to combat three time in two years and wouldn't ya know, there I was loading a fiddy cal with ammo and flying into places like Beirut 2-3 times a day.
Very interesting! When I lived in Florida (Daytona) working as a H-D mechanic, I'd drink in the Boot Hill Saloon (a famous Biker bar) after work and on the weekends (lots of drinking back then lol), the local cop would sometimes drink there too (a little unnerving at times tbh) since he rode as well. I got talking to him one day, turns out he used to be a Huey pilot during Vietnam, he said to never get attached to your door-gunner as he lost so many and they never lasted long over there. A lot of patrons at Biker bars are full of amazing BS but I think he was talking from experience, sounds bloody depressing and not glamorous at all.
There's a life magazine story from Vietnam, quite interesting. His pal died and the series of photos shows the grief catching up with him. I always enjoyed the gunner parts of CoD/MoE than most of the other levels. Someone just needs to go ahead and just make an aerial gunner video game. I'd buy it.
I tried to go for helicopter crew/door gunner way back when in the UK, suddenly got told my eyesight wasnt good enough and they gave me a list of jobs I could apply for (edit: by apply for I mean roles that I could get to/aim for I assumed) which my eyesight was okay with, sniper and forward observer were on the list which made me laugh xD.
Which is a bit odd. You can't just join as a 'sniper' so I fail to see how that was on the list? Snipers, within the British army, is a specialist role primarily reserved for infantry regiments. It's not its own corps. Even before then you have to have shown extreme proficiency with your individual weapon and excelled in your APWT (Getting that Marksmanship grade every year but then you don't bother sewing those cross rifles into your no. 2's except for your Phase 1 passing out parade.) Then you get sent to the weapons specialist school. Usually it takes 3-5 years of service to even be selected for a short-list to become a sniper. In all my 14 years of service I have never ever heard of the job of sniper being a role you can apply for straight from civvie street.
@@MrNigzy23 Yeah I got no idea myself, it was actually air force side of things I was going for and it was in with the RAF regiment side of roles they "suggested" at me, it made no sense to me either to be honest and I gave up on trying to join up partially because the list of roles they suggested had nothing to do with what I actually wanted to do which was to work with aircraft/helicopters. edit: I assume they meant the list more as a "long term things to push towards/aim for" over apply directly.
the ratio of pilots / crew killed in hueys was almost 1:1 with _slightly_ more crew dying compared to pilots (around 10%). The total number of people killed in hueys was somewhere in the thousands or tens of thousands.
I bet this is way more demanding than it looks: the wind, focusing aim as well as having a good eye for target opportunities as well as communication with the pilot and navigator.
I hit my window in December and I am deadset on reclassing to this mos, I understand that this specific part of the job is hard and I welcome the challenge
Good luck to you. It was the highlight of my 6 years in the Marines. I spent 4 years with F/A18s and it wasn’t for me. My last 2 years were with a CH-53E unit. I had the opportunity to fly and never regretted it. Even when it sucked. If I made it a career I would have flown for as long as I could. I was a 6531 (aviation ordnanceman) so we could be assigned to any aircraft, and when you complete your training and you’re winged, you earn your secondary most as a 6199 (aerial observer/gunner). Crew chief is a different mos, as they are basically flying mechanics, they are also assigned to a specific aircraft.
They do offer armoured troops to do the door gunner course I hear it’s lots of fun but difficult at the same time. It’s something I would love to do but it would take a lot of work.
I was one in the Air Force on HH-60s and the duties and titles at the time were different depending on what side of the helicopter you were on. Aerial gunners were on the left side of the helicopter and they were responsible for inspecting chaff/flare, and comms. I was a Flight Engineer and I was the gunner on the right-hand side of the helicopter. I was responsible for all mechanical pre-flight inspections, hoist inspections, PAX, monitoring flight instruments and calculating performance data in flight and before takeoff and maintenance if we were to land in an austere location without taking a crew chief with us. Although we often made the gunner do the refueling as I would be monitoring fuel levels and directing pilots to move the fuel selectors to ensure the fuel load was balanced. While it seems I had to do a lot more than the gunner, they were expected to be perfect on the guns and know the guns inside and out. I really only had to know their basic operation, how to shoot and fix them. If the gun was really messed up, the gunner would be the one to help get the gun back up if the flight engineer couldn't. It's a very close team with a lot of reliance on the other folks.
Heck yea its tough, you don't know whether or not your pilots gonna jump out to rpg the plane chasing you... Or just abandon you so they can parachute to a high tower spot... Tough times.
i tought a door guner is just a lucky guy who got first at the gun and his job was just to go full *YATATATATA* on the enemy well, each day you learn something new 👍👏👏
Spent some time in my day as a door gunner on a UH-1. The other gunner was the aircraft crew chief and I was expected to help him with maint on the bird as well as the MG's we used. And yes we had to requalify on the guns 2-3 times a year depending on mission load. But then I was in an air Cav element. And we all did a bit of everything.
FYI: You should check out " Syrmor " 's video where he interviews a guy who was an AC-130 gunner (I know not technically the same thing). His name was "Struggle" (also his YT Channel).
You have to make a lot of calls. Call distance, altitude, clear the skids, clear main rotor, clear tail rotor, clear right, clear left. You have to also give LZ brief to the pilot. Shooting is the easy part.
Like many I've also dreamed of becoming a door gunner, the sad thing is the country I'm from does not have a helicopter combat force... it barely has a functioning Airforce... 10:20 me being trained in first response (better than first aid, not as good as paramedic) can bare any gore... as long as it's not my own HAHAHA... that one time I was bleeding like crazy I almost fainted... (not sure if in shock, or shock)
South east Asian country, where coincidentally the Airforce was completely nuked in a Coup de Tat in 1965. What we do have is a strong Navy, but they don't run combat helicopters...
@@ZhiLawd The only SEA county I can think of where there was a Coup d'etat in 1965 is Indonesia, but Indonesia most definitely does have a prominent Air Force as well as rotary wing aviation. Perhaps Timor-Leste?
Well we do have attack helicopters and support helicopters but no door gunners afaik. When I wanted to sign up the recruiter said such position doesn't exist... maybe he was wrong...
I worked with a door gunner who served in Vietnam. He always said when shooting at the enemy, you have to fire optimizing a reverse lead as the helicopter is moving much faster than targets on foot. Different story if you are firing on an enemy on foot while you are on foot in pursuit yourself.
The main difference between the US Army and other US military branches, "Door Gunner" is not a specific MOS you can sign up for. Anyone (typically in an Aviation battalion/regiment) can volunteer to be a door gunner, but this only ever happens when there is a shortage of Crew Chiefs. Door gunners are only trained up for deployments. Upon returning home, they go back to their regular MOS duties, be it a supply person, fueler, etc. The Army prefers Crew Chiefs over door gunners. Crew Chiefs must hold the MOS of maintainer (helicopter mechanic), and typically are highly experienced at aircraft maintenance before being trained to be a crew member. Shooting the machinegun is a VERY small segment of the Crew Chief's duties. The primary duties of a Crew Chief, is coordinating maintenance, performing inspections, prepping the aircraft for missions, and ensuring the safety of the crew and aircraft while on mission. They are the onboard subject matter expert there to fix and/or diagnose any issues the aircraft may have. And an extra set of eyes and ears when performing complex maneuvers or operating in dangerous environments. They also operate special equipment, like the rescue hoist on Medevac or special operations aircraft. Meanwhile door gunner's primary job is just operating and maintaining the aircraft armament in a combat environment. Their training is much shorter and less demanding than a full fledged Crew Chief. They are still a crew member and can help out where they can, but they aren't required to know all the things that a Crew Chief knows, like advanced systems knowledge. It is treated as an extra duty rather than a career, although many door gunners do opt to become Crew Chiefs later, which involves changing their MOS and reclassing to maintainer.
@Joey Tatum In Afghanistan, our D co was stacked heavy with Phases. They didn't have enough Tangos to go around. At least 3 of the guys in my platoon were straight door gunners, non tangos. But man, flying with some door gunners is basically like flying by yourself with an extra pax you have to babysit the whole flight lol. Worse part is, I was NG and these guys were AD. Most of their crews and maintainers kinda sucked tbh lol.
Naval Aircrew Candidate school was the only part where drops seem to be an issue. Had like 4 drops there and only 1 in crewmember training. None in mechanic school house.
We used augmented reality in the infantry unit I was attached to as a forward observer. You go in a large room with a huge screen covering the entire wall in front of you. There are M-16s attached to large cables and pneumatics so they can “fire” without ammunition. I think it uses a ton of IR sensors or something to detect where you shoot on the screen. They can put enemy infantry, vehicles, whatever really, on the screen. Not quite VR but still very very cool. Our training for Forward Observers was kind of similar but not really. Just a classroom with a very large projection screen and they put whatever in the 3D environment on the computer and you locate, identify, and Call For Fire. They plug in your CFF and the results play out. What was pretty cool about it is that the regular binos we used worked from wherever you were sitting in the classroom. You didn’t need to calculate for any sort of distance, 5 mils in the binos was 5 mils on the screen. Although given how damn lazy FOs are, the only target was ever T-72s in the open lmao. Although they did get me one time by putting Infantry in the open. I was so accustomed to it just being another T-72 that I just called out T-72 in the open. He goes “nope. Look again” so I actually pick up my binos and lo-and-behold it’s 8 guys just huddled together in the middle of a field. Called for Willy Pete since I was a little miffed he did that to me lol. Surprised I didn’t get an Article 15 charge for going against the virtual world Geneva Convention.
This was the best job I ever had! It wasn’t easy though. The training is very hard and many people were kicked out of the course for failing different phases. It also takes a lot of work to stay current on everything plus your annual evaluation. Imagine fixing a mini gun hanging out in the dark in 130mph wind with little to no light to see what you’re doing. On top of that if you’re in a gun pattern you still need to be aware of where you are in the gun pattern continue making calls to update the crew while working on the gun. That is a SLIVER of what being a gunner is.
How do I say this with out hurting feelings. Depending on the unit all you have to do is pass the gunnery tables and pass a flight physical if you are a crew member. Crew chiefs/ flight engineers have to go through RL progression where is anyone can be a non crew member door gunner. Ive seen cooks and supply folks as door gunners when picking were slim.
I was a gunner in the U.S. Air Force and one other thing is we have to take all the same tests as the pilots. Our crew position is Flight Engineer in the American Air Force.
@@PavelowGunner1122 I retired in 2020 and learned you gotta keep it simple for the masses. When they ask what I did I just say door gunner other wise I get the "What is an FE?" question.
Reporter: "How can you shoot women and children?" Door Gunner: "EZ... you don't lead them as much" One of the craziest scenes I have ever witnessed in a war movie.
The Germans in ww2 would attack the tail gunner because their cannons could out range the tail gunners machine guns. Once they'd killed the gunner they wouls be free to attack the aircraft from the rear.
A lot of door gunners during the Vietnam era came from the infantry who were M-60 machine gunners. Infantry unit commanders were very angry losing their best machine gunners to aviation units asking for volunteers. The volunteer gunners chose to volunteer was better chow or food and hot showers unlike being in the infantry life sucked. There were many door gunners during that time wore their Combat Infantrymans Badge above their Air Crewmans Badge. These guys were bad ass guys.
Vietnam door gunner life expectancy wasn't very long . I worked with a Vietnam War Veteran at American airlines who was a Door Gunner. He was a very humble man .
I know the shooting is just a tiny part of it but it does look like a lot of fun blasting away from the side of a helicopter like the guns of the Navarron
I find it humorous whether it's online or in person when I know I'm dealing with a Valor stealing civilian to say I was a door gunner on the Space Shuttle just to see how they react.
@Donald Atherton um 3 pennies and a nickle. Oh but I got like 40 fucking years worth of random Canadian coins that always seem to get mixed in with our change.
Key point on MG fire rates for the M240 series of weapons: The M240H is the US Army's helicopter MG for door guns, however the cyclic rate of fire is still capped at 600 RPM consistent with ground/infantry models. If you see these weapons firing at a higher rate, smart money odds are that Soldiers did what Soldiers do, and over-bored the gas regulator with a power drill. I had guns on my Afghan deployment that by my (Beer math) estimation were doing over1000 RPM. They don't come from the factory that way. The downside is to this is that it (significantly) shortens the overall firing time you have in a belt of ammo, so there is a give-and-take aspect that needs to be factored into doing that.
In the U.S. Army at least, a door gunner isn’t an assigned MOS. For the most part they’re usually either a 15T or 15U Blackhawk or Chinook repairer. However that’s not always the case. It wasn’t uncommon when I was in Iraq that they’d pull guys from battalion motor pool or something like that who they could spare and send them to their aerial gunnery course. The actual 15T/U repairers were just needed in maintenance too badly and were too valuable to lose. However in general a door gunner is a 15T/U crew chief. Aerial gunnery is actually a very small part of your job. In fact you only even have a weapon in an actual combat zone. The rest of the time you’re just doing your crew duties communicating with the pilots and taking care of the cabin etc. Then there’s winch qualification and air assault for sling loads. Bambi bucket qualification etc. The medical stuff is something else entirely. Medevac birds have a crewchief and air medic in the back. The air medic is an actual medic MOS who went on to air medic school. It’s a big deal, big accomplishment for them to be an air medic. They’d send the crewchief to CLS course and the air medics would work with them to train them to assist but they were still just 15T’s. - Former 15T/U
My uncle was a 15T and made it to crew chief. I’m shipping out this Sunday Aug 26th to start basic then I’m becoming a 15T. Hints the name. I’m aiming at becoming a Crew chief myself. My entire family on my father’s side is in the medical field with my father often having the awful luck of having me in the car as he responded to witnessed incidents. I remember playing with my Pokémon when I saw a car get Tboned in my hometown. My father pulled off and I got to see him save my friend Jason from a burning car as the engine caught fire and almost engulfed Jason. His mother had a seizure and pushed the gas pedal. The wreak broke her arms so she was medicated to prevent the worry of her son from giving her a stroke. My dad was hosed down as Jason was seen to. He only lost his mullet. Mother was happy
Your talk about aircraft specifications (as far as helicopters goes) reminds me of a book i read where it was mentioned that some crew chiefs from back in the Vietnam war modified their aircraft beyond Bell's specification. Things they deemed unnecessary would be stripped out of the chopper to save weight or the engines would be tweaked to produce more power than factory spec allowing them to either fly faster or haul bigger loads. Whether or not this is true is anyones guess but its only what i read. ::EDIT:: The book was called 'ChickenHawk' by Robert Mason.... I'm aware that over the years his 'experiences' of the war have been called out as fake by other people but i dont know enough about this matter to make a judgement. another example... Andy McNab has been called out by his squad mates about some of the stuff he wrote for his bravo two zero book as well for that matter. People think McNab is lying about some of the stuff that happened but of course, i wasnt there so i cant judge. --- Chickenhawk was excellent. Loved the book! read through it about three times and it still has a place on my shelf.
@@geegaw14 It was an excellent book! I probably read it about 15-20 years ago but a lot of it stayed with me haha. What i really liked was the diagram of the hueys behind the front or back cover that listed what every part in the chopper was.
I was Huey Crew Chief in the Army. I served during Desert Shield and Desert Storm. when got the birds in theater all the the Old Warrant Officers that flew during Vietnam wanted all the governors on the fuel control systems turned up a bit...
In the US army the pilots just pick a guy they like from maintenance. I've met E1- E6's that were crew chiefs. You get a little more money for it also. You just have to be competent and you still have the main job of maintenance.
I think working on assault choppers, no matter the role... I mean u mostly fly at incredible low altitudes...and apart the new technology they are still vulnerable to basically everything from small arms, highest caliber and manpads.. Also u will probably find most of the time to land in the wrost and hot LZ u can imagine for troops deploying, medevac or whatever... While even an AK can give huge damage or kill crew components...
I dunno..the reason you're there is because someone is shooting at you and the aluminum tube filled with high octane fuel you're riding in. Maybe not for me.
Fun? Dad tells that he was refused his request, more money, to be a door gunner in 'nam due to being married. Seems it was considered kind of dangerous even by Vietnam standards.
I had a science teacher that used to be a huey door gunner in Vietnam. The man used to tell some exceptionally graphic stories to a bunch of 8th graders. As far as I'm aware he's still at it. He was the best teacher I ever had.
oh i though the requirement was beaning able to listen to Fortunate Son all day long.
Until he got missiled
Or
Get his ass down by flying tree
Or Jefferson Airplane, Animals, Steppenwolf, Flash In The Pan, Cream, ect.
Or yelling get some!
It's not a requirement. If it's not innate to you already then maybe this is not a job for you:)
Nothing quite that grueling
Hey Matt!
I was a civilian loadmaster in Afghanistan on a civvy helicopter 2010-2011. I did all the work of a door gunner. Minus actually having a door gun lol! Really, really hard work. Moving ass and trash ALL day, in that beautiful Afghanistan summer heat 🙄. My record was 41250Lbs of gear moved by our machine, and by our machine I mean I hand loaded the chopper, in one day. 41250lbs by hand. And if I had a weapon system, I would have that worry about as well. I can only imagine. Cheers B.
Respect from an ex Grunt.
my back hurts just reading this comment
@@Spudmuffinz 2 herniated disks in my lower back lol! But, 10/10 best job I ever had, would do again in a heart beat. Such an adventure, flying around a warzone with no weapons and barely any armour 🤣🤣.
Thank you for the sacrifice of your body.
@@McTeerZor Fuck, that hurts my soul. I'm barely 22, never served and have one herniated disc. Can't even step off a porch without throwing out my back sometimes. I really wanted to serve, but hearing pesonal accounts like that makes me glad I didn't. I have a bad habit of working too hard sometimes and I'm sure I would have worked my body to hell in there.
I was a Marine crew chief (door gunner) on the UH-1N. Good video Matt, very true! Door gunner part is pretty small percentage of what we actually did. Sometimes it was loads of fun and many times it was just pure misery. Testing aircraft day in and day out for 14 hours everyday sucked. Painting the Monalisa with the Gau-17a was pretty fun I'd say:)
As infantry I dream of having that many windows to lick all to my self. Your a lucky marine.
CH-53E here, but wasn't a crew chief. You ain't wrong, both fun and miserable to be air crew, but so satisfying to look back on. Semper Fi, bro!
What squadron were you? I was HMLA-269. Novembers also.
@@UHN-lg3em HMLA-467 Doesn't exist anymore. I went on the last deployment of November's. We came back and they loaded them up on flatbeds. Then it was just the reserve squadrons.
@@eduardos8895 269 was on the chopping block there's for a second but scarface got it. I think they are going to be reactivated though.
The Canadian Griffons in Afghanistan became infamous among the Taliban. The ones used for convoy and Chinook escort often had a GAU-21 on one door and a 7.62 minigun on the other. A deadly combo.
My dad served half his tour in Vietnam as a M-2 gunner in a CH-46. He rarely talked about it. I did ask him one time why he volunteered to go into aviation from his regular job. He looked at me and shrugged and said, “I was bored..”. Then he went completely quiet.
Do you know what squadron or aircraft buno?
Sounds like my uncle. Maybe too many buddies flown back in parts? It’s his issue as the last one he flew back (dedicated medic helicopter) was his childhood friend and the son of my grandmother’s childhood friend
Was one for 7 years in the German Army. Will never forget the deployments - best time of my life.
Thank you for the video! pretty solid.
Was a 1A771/1A971, Aerial Gunner/ Special Mission Aviator on USAF MH-53J/M and HH-60G helicopters
If you want to be a door gunner in the u.s. army, sign up to be a 15T or 15U. These are repair/crewman for the uh60 and ch47. Also, veer away from maintenance and more towards a flight company. Keep out of medevac as they do not have crew serve weapons. If you want to go further in the army look into joining 160th SOAR, they have the mini guns.
a friend of mine was a door gunner for hueys in vietnam for a time, they needed one so he volunteered, stupid me asked him how was it compared to the normal patrols, he said it was alright but after the second time crash landing somewhere you get over it
im leaving for the AF basic training this month and heading in for the 1A9 or special missions aviator. i love everything about the mission set and job, cant wait
"Anyone who runs, is a VC. Anyone who stands still, is a well-disciplined VC!"
"Easy, you just don't lead em as much"
Yay, war crimes!
@@ObliviousPenguin Ain't war hell !! HAHAHAHA
Fun fact: That guy was originally cast as Gunny Hartman but R. Lee Ermey who was originally hired as a technical consultant being a former D.I. was so good at demonstrating and improvising how to be one, Kubrick recast Hartman with Ermey instead.
Get some!!
I think for Canada in Afghanistan all door gunners on Griffins were Infantry that passed aerial gunners courses and not RCAF members.
One side is a dedicated door gunner, the other side is the flight engineer
I became a door gunner when I was told I was assigned to Aerial Gunnery School right after arriving at my permanent squadron in the US Marines. I had just finished 12 month of Avionics schools and the last thing I imagined was ever needing to know how to assemble and shot a fiddy cal on the CH-46. We ended up deployed to combat three time in two years and wouldn't ya know, there I was loading a fiddy cal with ammo and flying into places like Beirut 2-3 times a day.
AFSOC MH-53 Aerial Gunner here. Aerial gunnery was about 10% or less of our duties. Best job I ever had.
Manny!
Very interesting! When I lived in Florida (Daytona) working as a H-D mechanic, I'd drink in the Boot Hill Saloon (a famous Biker bar) after work and on the weekends (lots of drinking back then lol), the local cop would sometimes drink there too (a little unnerving at times tbh) since he rode as well. I got talking to him one day, turns out he used to be a Huey pilot during Vietnam, he said to never get attached to your door-gunner as he lost so many and they never lasted long over there. A lot of patrons at Biker bars are full of amazing BS but I think he was talking from experience, sounds bloody depressing and not glamorous at all.
There's a life magazine story from Vietnam, quite interesting. His pal died and the series of photos shows the grief catching up with him. I always enjoyed the gunner parts of CoD/MoE than most of the other levels. Someone just needs to go ahead and just make an aerial gunner video game. I'd buy it.
I don't know about the hardest job but definitely a screaming fast paced job with a lot of responsibility.
I tried to go for helicopter crew/door gunner way back when in the UK, suddenly got told my eyesight wasnt good enough and they gave me a list of jobs I could apply for (edit: by apply for I mean roles that I could get to/aim for I assumed) which my eyesight was okay with, sniper and forward observer were on the list which made me laugh xD.
LOL from a graduate of Scout/Sniper school. (We would never have qualified for the course if we couldn't see)
Hmmmm not good enough eye sight to fire a MG out a heli but good enough to spot targets multiple miles away...
Yep british army standards right there.
Hey, I was an forward observer and I have terrible distance vision. Reading a map quickly and radio skill were more important.
Which is a bit odd. You can't just join as a 'sniper' so I fail to see how that was on the list? Snipers, within the British army, is a specialist role primarily reserved for infantry regiments. It's not its own corps. Even before then you have to have shown extreme proficiency with your individual weapon and excelled in your APWT (Getting that Marksmanship grade every year but then you don't bother sewing those cross rifles into your no. 2's except for your Phase 1 passing out parade.) Then you get sent to the weapons specialist school.
Usually it takes 3-5 years of service to even be selected for a short-list to become a sniper. In all my 14 years of service I have never ever heard of the job of sniper being a role you can apply for straight from civvie street.
@@MrNigzy23 Yeah I got no idea myself, it was actually air force side of things I was going for and it was in with the RAF regiment side of roles they "suggested" at me, it made no sense to me either to be honest and I gave up on trying to join up partially because the list of roles they suggested had nothing to do with what I actually wanted to do which was to work with aircraft/helicopters.
edit: I assume they meant the list more as a "long term things to push towards/aim for" over apply directly.
Very informative. Only knew that in Vietnam; most door find were killed by enemy fire. Their survival was very rare.
the ratio of pilots / crew killed in hueys was almost 1:1 with _slightly_ more crew dying compared to pilots (around 10%). The total number of people killed in hueys was somewhere in the thousands or tens of thousands.
dam tracers are bright as shit. watching them light up the ground as they flew by is insane
I bet this is way more demanding than it looks: the wind, focusing aim as well as having a good eye for target opportunities as well as communication with the pilot and navigator.
Hi Mat, I hate helicopters when going in but love them when in CASAVAC! Cheers mate. Harera.
I hit my window in December and I am deadset on reclassing to this mos, I understand that this specific part of the job is hard and I welcome the challenge
Good luck to you. It was the highlight of my 6 years in the Marines.
I spent 4 years with F/A18s and it wasn’t for me. My last 2 years were with a CH-53E unit. I had the opportunity to fly and never regretted it. Even when it sucked. If I made it a career I would have flown for as long as I could.
I was a 6531 (aviation ordnanceman) so we could be assigned to any aircraft, and when you complete your training and you’re winged, you earn your secondary most as a 6199 (aerial observer/gunner). Crew chief is a different mos, as they are basically flying mechanics, they are also assigned to a specific aircraft.
I and we can do anything until proven otherwise. That’s my mindset, never quit!
They do offer armoured troops to do the door gunner course I hear it’s lots of fun but difficult at the same time. It’s something I would love to do but it would take a lot of work.
Negative lead, if you are moving forward. Let the rounds carry themselves forward with your momentum.
Not that easy. Depending on what side of the aircraft you are on you have to even take into account even the rotation of the round
I was one in the Air Force on HH-60s and the duties and titles at the time were different depending on what side of the helicopter you were on. Aerial gunners were on the left side of the helicopter and they were responsible for inspecting chaff/flare, and comms. I was a Flight Engineer and I was the gunner on the right-hand side of the helicopter. I was responsible for all mechanical pre-flight inspections, hoist inspections, PAX, monitoring flight instruments and calculating performance data in flight and before takeoff and maintenance if we were to land in an austere location without taking a crew chief with us. Although we often made the gunner do the refueling as I would be monitoring fuel levels and directing pilots to move the fuel selectors to ensure the fuel load was balanced. While it seems I had to do a lot more than the gunner, they were expected to be perfect on the guns and know the guns inside and out. I really only had to know their basic operation, how to shoot and fix them. If the gun was really messed up, the gunner would be the one to help get the gun back up if the flight engineer couldn't. It's a very close team with a lot of reliance on the other folks.
Now we're all 1A9s...
I may or may not know a guy that got PTSD from doing that exact job. Cut a guy in half with the mini gun. Top half of the body flipped backwards.
This is great and all but Space Shuttle door gunner is really where it's at. That's a special forces role however...
I was a door gunner in the UH-1H, UH-60 & CH-47s didn't like it much.
If I wasn’t such a badass Tanker, I’d give it a try!
Heck yea its tough, you don't know whether or not your pilots gonna jump out to rpg the plane chasing you...
Or just abandon you so they can parachute to a high tower spot...
Tough times.
That's some Col. 100 thinking ,there.
As a DCS player I don't get get it
@@Hairysteed Battlefield meme
I think the hardest part of being a minigunner is the 21 hours of cleaning it takes afterwards.....
Or counting rounds if you had a bent gun before going though it all
i tought a door guner is just a lucky guy who got first at the gun and his job was just to go full *YATATATATA* on the enemy
well, each day you learn something new 👍👏👏
Spent some time in my day as a door gunner on a UH-1. The other gunner was the aircraft crew chief and I was expected to help him with maint on the bird as well as the MG's we used. And yes we had to requalify on the guns 2-3 times a year depending on mission load. But then I was in an air Cav element. And we all did a bit of everything.
FYI:
You should check out " Syrmor " 's video where he interviews a guy who was an AC-130 gunner (I know not technically the same thing). His name was "Struggle" (also his YT Channel).
You have to make a lot of calls. Call distance, altitude, clear the skids, clear main rotor, clear tail rotor, clear right, clear left. You have to also give LZ brief to the pilot. Shooting is the easy part.
Doorgunner by Michael Williams. Picked it off the barracks bookshelf in Korea 35 years ago. Good little book.
My Grandfather was a waist gunner in a B-24H for the 449th Bomb group in ww2. Hope to enlist after I graduate college next year
All med tech are primary care paramedics! I wonder if this trade is a part of the RCAF or Army in the CAF
As difficult as this clearly is, I'm sure it pales in comparison to the air-to-air gunnery of WWII bomber crews.
Moving 400 kph while a plane coming at you 500-600 kph, maneuvering, having to make massive lead.. yeah
I’d rather go down in a hell than the back end of a b24. That’s some “well I’m fucked” where as the heli doesn’t have the wait time till lights out
former UH-60 A/L/M crewchief/door gunner here thanks for the throwback nice video
Gunner in Vietnam 119 AHC and 116 AHC, best job, but still hare to talk about
Let's gooo. Early for this one.
Brilliant video
Like many I've also dreamed of becoming a door gunner, the sad thing is the country I'm from does not have a helicopter combat force... it barely has a functioning Airforce...
10:20 me being trained in first response (better than first aid, not as good as paramedic) can bare any gore... as long as it's not my own HAHAHA... that one time I was bleeding like crazy I almost fainted... (not sure if in shock, or shock)
Which country is that? I'm hailing from Finland so we have 20 NH-90 helicopters which are equipped with M-134D-H miniguns.
@@Hairysteed Probably UK LOL
South east Asian country, where coincidentally the Airforce was completely nuked in a Coup de Tat in 1965. What we do have is a strong Navy, but they don't run combat helicopters...
@@ZhiLawd The only SEA county I can think of where there was a Coup d'etat in 1965 is Indonesia, but Indonesia most definitely does have a prominent Air Force as well as rotary wing aviation. Perhaps Timor-Leste?
Well we do have attack helicopters and support helicopters but no door gunners afaik. When I wanted to sign up the recruiter said such position doesn't exist... maybe he was wrong...
I worked with a door gunner who served in Vietnam. He always said when shooting at the enemy, you have to fire optimizing a reverse lead as the helicopter is moving much faster than targets on foot. Different story if you are firing on an enemy on foot while you are on foot in pursuit yourself.
Ever saw the Chuck Jones military educational cartoon on bomber side gunners?
The main difference between the US Army and other US military branches, "Door Gunner" is not a specific MOS you can sign up for. Anyone (typically in an Aviation battalion/regiment) can volunteer to be a door gunner, but this only ever happens when there is a shortage of Crew Chiefs. Door gunners are only trained up for deployments. Upon returning home, they go back to their regular MOS duties, be it a supply person, fueler, etc.
The Army prefers Crew Chiefs over door gunners. Crew Chiefs must hold the MOS of maintainer (helicopter mechanic), and typically are highly experienced at aircraft maintenance before being trained to be a crew member. Shooting the machinegun is a VERY small segment of the Crew Chief's duties. The primary duties of a Crew Chief, is coordinating maintenance, performing inspections, prepping the aircraft for missions, and ensuring the safety of the crew and aircraft while on mission. They are the onboard subject matter expert there to fix and/or diagnose any issues the aircraft may have. And an extra set of eyes and ears when performing complex maneuvers or operating in dangerous environments. They also operate special equipment, like the rescue hoist on Medevac or special operations aircraft.
Meanwhile door gunner's primary job is just operating and maintaining the aircraft armament in a combat environment. Their training is much shorter and less demanding than a full fledged Crew Chief. They are still a crew member and can help out where they can, but they aren't required to know all the things that a Crew Chief knows, like advanced systems knowledge. It is treated as an extra duty rather than a career, although many door gunners do opt to become Crew Chiefs later, which involves changing their MOS and reclassing to maintainer.
@Joey Tatum In Afghanistan, our D co was stacked heavy with Phases. They didn't have enough Tangos to go around. At least 3 of the guys in my platoon were straight door gunners, non tangos.
But man, flying with some door gunners is basically like flying by yourself with an extra pax you have to babysit the whole flight lol. Worse part is, I was NG and these guys were AD. Most of their crews and maintainers kinda sucked tbh lol.
Naval Aircrew Candidate school was the only part where drops seem to be an issue. Had like 4 drops there and only 1 in crewmember training. None in mechanic school house.
We used augmented reality in the infantry unit I was attached to as a forward observer. You go in a large room with a huge screen covering the entire wall in front of you. There are M-16s attached to large cables and pneumatics so they can “fire” without ammunition. I think it uses a ton of IR sensors or something to detect where you shoot on the screen. They can put enemy infantry, vehicles, whatever really, on the screen. Not quite VR but still very very cool.
Our training for Forward Observers was kind of similar but not really. Just a classroom with a very large projection screen and they put whatever in the 3D environment on the computer and you locate, identify, and Call For Fire. They plug in your CFF and the results play out. What was pretty cool about it is that the regular binos we used worked from wherever you were sitting in the classroom. You didn’t need to calculate for any sort of distance, 5 mils in the binos was 5 mils on the screen. Although given how damn lazy FOs are, the only target was ever T-72s in the open lmao. Although they did get me one time by putting Infantry in the open. I was so accustomed to it just being another T-72 that I just called out T-72 in the open. He goes “nope. Look again” so I actually pick up my binos and lo-and-behold it’s 8 guys just huddled together in the middle of a field. Called for Willy Pete since I was a little miffed he did that to me lol. Surprised I didn’t get an Article 15 charge for going against the virtual world Geneva Convention.
Like always great video. Thanks really appreciate it
It was the easiest part of being a flight engineer or crew chief that i experienced. And the most fun.
I did at one point but I lost that ability when the helicopter crashed 50 years ago. Semper Fi
Thanks for the video, I never thought about the gunner having to multitask jobs. That was an eye opener! Great video btw!
Would have liked to try.
I can see myself dropping some part of the gun midair while reloading and then fall out of the helicopter when trying to grab the gun.
You gotta aim in front of them and convince yourself they're well trained enemies
Aiming for the right shot when the helicopter banking is hard compared aiming using mouse and keyboard
This was the best job I ever had! It wasn’t easy though. The training is very hard and many people were kicked out of the course for failing different phases. It also takes a lot of work to stay current on everything plus your annual evaluation. Imagine fixing a mini gun hanging out in the dark in 130mph wind with little to no light to see what you’re doing. On top of that if you’re in a gun pattern you still need to be aware of where you are in the gun pattern continue making calls to update the crew while working on the gun. That is a SLIVER of what being a gunner is.
How do you become a door gunner like what contract and how long is the contract?
Agreed. Best job I ever had. Hardest job i ever had.
USMC 2002-08
6531/6199
Combat Aircrew
GET SOME!!!
Ooo touch on JTACs next
How do I say this with out hurting feelings. Depending on the unit all you have to do is pass the gunnery tables and pass a flight physical if you are a crew member. Crew chiefs/ flight engineers have to go through RL progression where is anyone can be a non crew member door gunner. Ive seen cooks and supply folks as door gunners when picking were slim.
I was a gunner in the U.S. Air Force and one other thing is we have to take all the same tests as the pilots. Our crew position is Flight Engineer in the American Air Force.
Bro, what? Talking about open and closed book, and MQF tests? We had Aerial Gunners and FEs, then SMA in 2009
@@PavelowGunner1122 Dude, I simplified it for the general public. Got my wings as an FE from BHFE at Kirtland in 2005.
You should've known that someone was gonna challenge that simple-ass answer, lol...and a 1A7 Gunner no less!😆
@@PavelowGunner1122 I retired in 2020 and learned you gotta keep it simple for the masses. When they ask what I did I just say door gunner other wise I get the "What is an FE?" question.
@@jamieaulbach5120 most FEs say they're gunners at the bar to pick up chicks 🤣joking brother
Reporter: "How can you shoot women and children?"
Door Gunner: "EZ... you don't lead them as much"
One of the craziest scenes I have ever witnessed in a war movie.
Aircrafts' "gunners" take the "riskiest" task !! Enemy's gunners would surely take them as 'first target' !!
The Germans in ww2 would attack the tail gunner because their cannons could out range the tail gunners machine guns. Once they'd killed the gunner they wouls be free to attack the aircraft from the rear.
Whiskey windage is very real. My time it was a m60 hanging from heavy twine.
Good video. Open peoples eyes to the elements of the trade.
Get Some!
A lot of door gunners during the Vietnam era came from the infantry who were M-60 machine gunners. Infantry unit commanders were very angry losing their best machine gunners to aviation units asking for volunteers. The volunteer gunners chose to volunteer was better chow or food and hot showers unlike being in the infantry life sucked. There were many door gunners during that time wore their Combat Infantrymans Badge above their Air Crewmans Badge. These guys were bad ass guys.
"Tracers point both ways."
Now you must do something on SWCC.
Vietnam door gunner life expectancy wasn't very long . I worked with a Vietnam War Veteran at American airlines who was a Door Gunner. He was a very humble man .
COME GET SOME!!!
I know the shooting is just a tiny part of it but it does look like a lot of fun blasting away from the side of a helicopter like the guns of the Navarron
I think I do - did it for 7 years :)
I find it humorous whether it's online or in person when I know I'm dealing with a Valor stealing civilian to say I was a door gunner on the Space Shuttle just to see how they react.
@Donald Atherton um 3 pennies and a nickle. Oh but I got like 40 fucking years worth of random Canadian coins that always seem to get mixed in with our change.
"Get some! Get some!" Door gunner from the movie Full Metal Jacket
I sure hope so considering I am one
Key point on MG fire rates for the M240 series of weapons: The M240H is the US Army's helicopter MG for door guns, however the cyclic rate of fire is still capped at 600 RPM consistent with ground/infantry models. If you see these weapons firing at a higher rate, smart money odds are that Soldiers did what Soldiers do, and over-bored the gas regulator with a power drill. I had guns on my Afghan deployment that by my (Beer math) estimation were doing over1000 RPM. They don't come from the factory that way. The downside is to this is that it (significantly) shortens the overall firing time you have in a belt of ammo, so there is a give-and-take aspect that needs to be factored into doing that.
Ful Metal Jacket
..those standing are disciplined NVA...
On “Marine Reacts” the host Jameson used the term “Submarine Door Gunner” to describe a stolen valor idiot. Lmao 🤣
In the U.S. Army at least, a door gunner isn’t an assigned MOS. For the most part they’re usually either a 15T or 15U Blackhawk or Chinook repairer. However that’s not always the case. It wasn’t uncommon when I was in Iraq that they’d pull guys from battalion motor pool or something like that who they could spare and send them to their aerial gunnery course. The actual 15T/U repairers were just needed in maintenance too badly and were too valuable to lose. However in general a door gunner is a 15T/U crew chief. Aerial gunnery is actually a very small part of your job. In fact you only even have a weapon in an actual combat zone. The rest of the time you’re just doing your crew duties communicating with the pilots and taking care of the cabin etc. Then there’s winch qualification and air assault for sling loads. Bambi bucket qualification etc. The medical stuff is something else entirely. Medevac birds have a crewchief and air medic in the back. The air medic is an actual medic MOS who went on to air medic school. It’s a big deal, big accomplishment for them to be an air medic. They’d send the crewchief to CLS course and the air medics would work with them to train them to assist but they were still just 15T’s.
- Former 15T/U
Get some..get some baby..yeah..yeahh..get some!!
Yes I do, and I did!!!
I CANT IMAGINE HOW FUCKING AWESOME IT WOULD BE IF I BECAME A DOOR GUNNER
My uncle was a 15T and made it to crew chief. I’m shipping out this Sunday Aug 26th to start basic then I’m becoming a 15T. Hints the name. I’m aiming at becoming a Crew chief myself. My entire family on my father’s side is in the medical field with my father often having the awful luck of having me in the car as he responded to witnessed incidents. I remember playing with my Pokémon when I saw a car get Tboned in my hometown. My father pulled off and I got to see him save my friend Jason from a burning car as the engine caught fire and almost engulfed Jason. His mother had a seizure and pushed the gas pedal. The wreak broke her arms so she was medicated to prevent the worry of her son from giving her a stroke. My dad was hosed down as Jason was seen to. He only lost his mullet. Mother was happy
Tried that in 2/10 ACS back in the day. Not bad, but I'd rather be a ground-pounder with both feet firmly on mother earth.
The M3 Browning, for when deuce just ain't enough Ma.
scream "GET SOME" increases your aerial gunner aiming in 100%
'It ain't me, I'm not for door gunnery son' 😆
Your talk about aircraft specifications (as far as helicopters goes) reminds me of a book i read where it was mentioned that some crew chiefs from back in the Vietnam war modified their aircraft beyond Bell's specification. Things they deemed unnecessary would be stripped out of the chopper to save weight or the engines would be tweaked to produce more power than factory spec allowing them to either fly faster or haul bigger loads.
Whether or not this is true is anyones guess but its only what i read.
::EDIT::
The book was called 'ChickenHawk' by Robert Mason.... I'm aware that over the years his 'experiences' of the war have been called out as fake by other people but i dont know enough about this matter to make a judgement.
another example... Andy McNab has been called out by his squad mates about some of the stuff he wrote for his bravo two zero book as well for that matter. People think McNab is lying about some of the stuff that happened but of course, i wasnt there so i cant judge.
--- Chickenhawk was excellent. Loved the book! read through it about three times and it still has a place on my shelf.
One of the best books I ever read.
@@geegaw14 It was an excellent book! I probably read it about 15-20 years ago but a lot of it stayed with me haha. What i really liked was the diagram of the hueys behind the front or back cover that listed what every part in the chopper was.
I was Huey Crew Chief in the Army. I served during Desert Shield and Desert Storm. when got the birds in theater all the the Old Warrant Officers that flew during Vietnam wanted all the governors on the fuel control systems turned up a bit...
@@mrsteve2099 so the rumours are true 😂
Burrrrrrt....Burrrrt
"If they run, they are VC. If they stand still, they are very well disciplined VC".
How can you shoot women and children?....... " You just don't lead them as much!"
Classic!!
When they do their certifications for gunnery do they have to train in bad weather conditions?
In the US army the pilots just pick a guy they like from maintenance. I've met E1- E6's that were crew chiefs. You get a little more money for it also. You just have to be competent and you still have the main job of maintenance.
I think working on assault choppers, no matter the role... I mean u mostly fly at incredible low altitudes...and apart the new technology they are still vulnerable to basically everything from small arms, highest caliber and manpads.. Also u will probably find most of the time to land in the wrost and hot LZ u can imagine for troops deploying, medevac or whatever... While even an AK can give huge damage or kill crew components...
I dunno..the reason you're there is because someone is shooting at you and the aluminum tube filled with high octane fuel you're riding in. Maybe not for me.
Fun?
Dad tells that he was refused his request, more money, to be a door gunner in 'nam due to being married. Seems it was considered kind of dangerous even by Vietnam standards.
0:04 who else noticed the carbon build up and had a gut wrench?