yea its giving scammy, but like in a "peripheral vision" way. like in most cases it states it, sure, but albeit in a way thats hard to understand the pricing and unnecessary fees added on to it. its like when contracts in cartoons put important information in small font nd then tell the client that "its in the fine print" 😅 if ure not trying to deceive people why not be direct ? oh cuz its almost like ur consumer count would drop wit the ridculous fees. but people dont wanna hear the truth that not everyone is fit to sell art/take commissions or even run a business. it runs deep.
On top of that, I wish artists would mention what THEY consider commercial. There are some that are obvious, but some artists will charge you for using the artwork on your stream schedule graphic, and some do not. Hell I've seen some people charge commercial for using the artwork as a pfp but only IF you're a streamer. And granted, I've done commissions for years, so I completely stand by artists' rights to be paid.. but as an artist you 100% owe it to everyone to be fully transparent and save both yourself and potential clients the headache.
This why I always read every artists or seller ToS, if you're new as customer, feel free to ask them too or people around you who has order digital art products before and ask them how their experience was. Not part of the video, if you want emotes (or any digital art product) in short time, check each artists agenda and waitlist.
My commission prices are the final price, except for e.g additional characters or backgrounds which depend on the amount of detail requested, but I always tell the customer upfront the full, final price including all fees (especially for PayPal I think its against their TOS to have the customer pay certain fees like the transaction fee, it needs to be included in the final price they pay). Its so disingenuous to charge fees without telling them upfront (or if you dont have them laid out clearly in your price list or commission profile). Its not that hard to show the customer before they recieve the invoice what their final price is and what fees theyre expected to pay.
This makes me realise how easy going I was and am as an artist that was commissioned. You commission me to do art, I do art. I tell l you you can do whatever with it because it's yours now. And people have put it on merch and stuff... And... I don't care? It's theirs to do what they want with? 😅 Maybe I'm too old and old school for all this commercial rights drama
its the context of the comm, right? No, commercial rights shouldnt be included in general, 90% of my comms are for the clients own personal enjoyment, gift to a friend, profile photo, etc. To list a license fee that they dont need is making them pay extra for no reason. On emotes, stream models, overlays, branding? Yeah. I think its fine to add an additional fee for merchandising rights, but content use rights should be included in comms of that nature. Thats what the product is for, and what people are going to use it for, so include it!
So I think it depends. If it’s a drawing people sometimes legitimately want drawings for personal use only so a commercial fee is fine. Even an emote can sometimes be used in private personal discord servers. But if it’s a streaming overlay it’s kind of false advertising. What would someone need a streaming overlay for other than streaming?
I feel like the difference is like advertising it as "Twitch Emotes" like clearly that's going to be used commercially/publicly for Twitch and then charging a commercial fee vs "Personal Emotes" which like you said could be used in personal discords or with friends or sumn like that. I think then the artist shouldn't advertise their art as "Twitch Emotes" if they're going to add fees for "commercial use" which is the ONLY WAY a Twitch emote could possibly be used.
idk how well that will go because people will just do this kinda thing on a bigger scale. Like advertising lower prices but then there's a whole bunch of fees after the fact for "commercial license", editing fees, sketch fees, early delivery fee or whatever else they want to add which will jack up the prices after the fact. it'll end in more deceptive pricing models and make it harder for people looking to commission things.
I'm an artist too and you are supposed to buy commercial rights for anything like art music etc, if you are selling it. That is normal for anything. But I DO hate that no one shows what their commercial prices are. A lot of people will make it double the cost or + half whatever it costs originally. I DO wish there were different commercial ranges for a large company, a small team of 3-4 people vs. a single person using it commercially, or a way to offer a cut when it sells instead of a commercial price. I just wish they showed options. But a lot of artists won't even post their commercial prices. I've done commissions a lot for years (I don't anymore burned out on art these days tbh) and years but I always showed all my prices. And then told them to ask if they want something not listed and i can tell them the price to see if they want it. I made a post bc a friend was looking for art commissions for something specific, mentioned exactly what they wanted and I said 'post your samples and rates and if they are interested they will contact you' a bunch of people ignored the post and didn't even post their samples or made excuses or link to their stuff/or mention any prices and kept telling me to message them. I was like if you can't follow the post than just leave please lmfao. Like it feels like a lot of artists that don't post their rates(even if you are hourly that's fine, but say your rates) a lot of people are poor and I get art is a luxury but cornering people in a message or asking for their budget is so annoying, no messages should be had unless they know they can order in your prices for your work and they know they like your work. If you don't show your samples they don't know if they like it, and yes, your art is worth whatever price you sell it as--but not everyone can do a lot, so forcing them into a message and then saying some price they can't afford or something Makes them uncomfortable and then the artist usually gets annoyed that their time was wasted, or the person feels guilty bc they messaged it and do it anyways. It's SHADY. And a lot of artists *know that* It's worse when people ask what your budget is bc if it's not publicly posted, no one has any idea if you are scamming them out of more money and charging someone else less or vice versa. it's WEIRD.
I think some pieces should have the fee built in and some not, like obviously a streaming overlay should have a built in price for streaming and same with things advertised as twitch emotes but a normal illustration could go either way so that's when communication would have to happen to figure that out but I don't think people are wrong for seeing a 50 dollar price tag on something called TWITCH EMOTE and then being annoyed that they have to pay 100 dollars to use it on twitch when that's what it is advertised for.
i saw this post and commented under, as both an artist and avid art buyer i can see both sides to the points, i myself wont purchase something if there is no clear tos/breakdown of their fees. the artist side of me understands not everyone will want commercial use in every commission so what i do and has worked for me smoothly thus far is having a section/group of my services that are inherently meant for streaming/content use and have all fees included in the base pricing (ex. panels, emotes), anything outside that group has a fee added if they want to use it as such, as well as having a faq that covers what i consider as comm or personal usage, obviously there will be those few that dont read so as a preventative measure vgen has a nifty lil thing where you can add pricing to an add-on option (ex. comm or merch use choices) and when they finish filling out the form they will see an accurate proposal and full breakdown of what is added to get to the price theyre seeing.
i thought it's already obvious that it was already put in the commercial price for the vtuber model? because just like you said it's obvious it's for vtubing. so it's used for streaming. Now for emotes samething it should be in commercial price already because it's obvious it's going to be use for commercial purpose(Streaming,etc) Portrait or Art used for Merch, Promotion and etc. that i understand you can add to the personal fee(the Actual price) a commercial fee. because that's the common.
Commercial use is any reproduction or purpose that is marketed, promoted, or sold and incorporates a financial transaction. Non-commercial use encompasses a wide range of exciting possibilities-including artistic, educational, scholarly, and personal projects that will not be marketed, promoted, or sold. Therefore sorry to break it to you but for twitch stuff a commercial licence must be included as an expense when buying anything for your channel. I do however agree that what you’re paying for should be clearly broken down for whoever is buying from you which you can easily have on your commission page and have it lay out certain use cases to at the least make sure that you and your buyer are on the same page. I think part of the reason why some people may be confused are because of the inconsistencies between different artists when it comes to pricing break down schemes especially if that artist is super young and using it as a way to gain experience or a quick buck, and is also not familiar with basic marketing and business expectations that they unfortunately then end up passing on to their consumers who then view that as the minimum expectation.
Your claim that a commercial license is always required for Twitch because of subs or donations isnt really what "commercial use" actually means. While commercial use usually involves profit or financial transactions, it depends on how the asset is used, the intent behind it, and the terms set by the artist or seller. While the VTuber model may help promote your channel, it is not the same as a company using a mascot to sell a product. In the case of streaming, you're not making money directly from the model itself or selling a product associated with it, which differentiates it from commercial promotion like McDonald's using their mascot to market food. (if you are using your model in a sponsor section that probs would require one. as you can tell its very confusing and not very easy to say what is okay and whats not.) Subscriptions and donations are seen as support for the streamer, not as payment for the asset itself. Since the model or art is just part of your creative content, not a product, many vtubers don’t require a commercial license for this type of use. (Besides I don't think it will hold up in court if a artist tried to fight someone who didnt buy a license and was getting dono's because its a blurry line and the vtuber could argue the money is just fans supporting the stream not the model.) Unless the artist’s terms explicitly say, "You need a license to use this for streaming," you don’t need one-unless you’re planning to sell products featuring the model, like T-shirts. TL;DR: Using a VTuber model or any art stuff on Twitch doesn’t automatically require a commercial license just because you receive subs or donations. subs and donations support the streamer, and when people buy them they are buying it for the streamer not the art directly, so it’s not traditional "commercial use." and it's very unlikely it would hold up in court unless the artist said "You need a license to use this for streaming," in their terms. The need for a license depends on the artist’s terms and how the asset is use. Always check the artist specific terms of use. IMO I believe artists should just sell the commercial rights with the product and add the commercial rights cost to the model. I mean just imagine if someone who didnt pay for the rights started to use the model for money and you're trying to fight with the courts to get justice. it's not worth the hassle and thats what Ive been doing. My art is more expensive bc the rights are include, you can't buy the model without the extra fees 😭
I've had this conversation with friends about how so many artists on Vgen are hobbyists who don't know anything about licensing. I know of at least one artist who said they retain commercial rights to all their work. And okay, fair. But for the amount they were charging me for commercial rights, I'd like them to be exclusive rights. I don't want to put time and effort into creating a market for a character only to have the artist compete with me in selling merch for it. .. it turned out the artist thought reserving the right for her to use it commercially meant that she could put it in her portfolio.
Ngl, i didn't know this is an issues for some artists. I didn't know that there some artists that are a bit exploitative with the commercial fees. When i was commisioning artist they always told me that there are additional fee if i use it commercialy. And they also explained to me what commercial use are. So far in my experience of commisioning artists, they always put it in their TOS. Though it is nice idea if they show it in the commision sheet.
Another think, when an artist want charge you commercial right on your own design just because they will draw it x) For me commercial right it's when you sell stuff. If you have a good relation with your artist, you discuss with your artist for see how much fee your artist will charge you if you decide to sell stuff he draw. Example, your artist gain % per sell if you take this path with your artist.
Another thing that i saw is that people tend to not put their commission prices up at all. I absolutely would not even ask the person "how much is your commission prices" most of the time. Its the same with like high brand stuff. If you see no price tag, typically you would think its too expensive for normal people like me. I too hate feeling like i don have enough money for it if it turns out that i dont have the funds for it on hand. PLEASE PUT UP THE ROUGH PRICES. Even if you have to state that those are rough prices and could fluctuate depending on the designs and comm requests.
It really depends on whats being sold there is a difference between personal use commissions and commercial use so I think in a commission sheet it should be emphasized of "these prices are only for PERSONAL USE pleae contact me for commerical use commissions for a full quote." TLDR; communication is key in this situation of pricing and more
I can understand for illustration to not have a merchandising fee included with them directly, that you have to buy extra, but when I have a "commercial fee" to post it on twitter it feel like bullshit.. Like I buy a illustration and can't even show it ? it's the same for the commercial commission without a commercial fee included, wdym I need to pay extra to use a overlay I paid for on twitch as... my overlay? People are really overdoing it with the commercial fee, treating it as a broadcasting fee, if you want to get paid extra for those, put it already and put the merchandising fee as an extra! As an artist I got people checking my Commercial fee extra because they wanna use it as a icon and I'm like "Bro you ain't making money with that it's not commercial" Q_Q. Yeah it's branding but they ain't making direct money with that T_T
I think it's become a thing since VGEN has an offer and option for "Commercial Rights: Streaming / Content Use" , and from there a lot of artists have added an additional fee if you use said artwork in that regard. Example for an illustration to be used as a starting soon screen, pfp, banner, panel etc they will charge an extra fee regardless of the size of creator you are just to use it for that.
It's illegal to charge commercial fees over digital products as it's against the TOS of Paypal and the likes. You are right that it's often new commission artists who don't realise these things. I feel like these people need a class about fees, royalties and the likes
Tbh I appreciate this video, cuz that means I know to put my fee list not just in my TOS but also probably will put it on the payment page at the top in bold letters
for this example, i believe she means “if you want an animated emote, it would be 90 dollars total. for art and the animation.” she was saying it was 50 dollars additional for that emote fee to be animated. the art is still 40 dollars regardless
When I started years ago with commissions, I used to look at a bunch of prices, descriptions, Tos, and process from artists who is familiar with taking commissions so that I know that I am doing the right thing (I'm around 13 this time.) especially since I'm fully aware that I am going to be taking real money, also learned about commercial prices around this time too. I don't charge additional fees for commercial use if it will be used in streams or at least digital platform (the commercial fee is already included on its price), as long as the client don't distribute the art itself for profit. (selling online for digital copy/ selling on merch, selling as stickers, etc.) What is happening now? it's like so many artists nowadays just open up commissions just because they want to and doesn't have any plans or at least a bit of knowledge on how to do it either 😢 Maybe this is happening too before and I'm just not aware of that when I started, but now that I have seen these types of stuff... If this continues, smaller artists will find it harder to have someone commission them because of trust issues/ problems which is not just this, but many more problematic reasons.
I don't even do stuff for commercial use right now, specifically adoptables. I'm far too new to selling them to know what I'm doing with commercial fees so I've decided not to fuck with it for now.
I dont care what your TOS says. To me there should never be any confusion. Give an estimate with what's included and what's not. Don't add fees later. That is BS. If you arent happy with the estimate, then just dont buy it. Simple as that. No one gets hurt.
Most of my commissioners don't want commercial rights but it states in my ToS that commercial rights is +100% of the og comm. If they wanna make stickers out of an emote, an emote from me is $15 and the commercial upcharge would make it $30 total. For me, getting commercial rights means to use it on merch and also means that I won't post the art willy nilly for memes and such. Its their art now. I don't use Vgen but artistree and whenever someone submits a request form, I breakdown the charges like: Full shade Full Body: $70 Full shade Full Body Additional Character: $35 Full Shade BG: $30 Something along those lines. I can't understand how some artists can overcharge like that. Its breaks my heart tbh
You should be stating both your commission and commercial fees or you should have a statement somewhere that says "contact for talks about commercial use" cause commercial fees are of course person by person and commission by commission. Not everyone is commercializing the art every time so slapping commercial fees on something that doesn't need it is weird that also means slapping commercial fees on all of your stuff up front doesn't make sense though either. I don't think emotes should have commercial fees. Things like logos, vtuber models, merch, ect, are what really matters for commercial use. Also I think another problem is people who are new to getting into making their own brand/business. In this case, vtubing/content creation. They tend to have no idea what commercial licensing even is or that it exists. That's not the artists fault, that's yours for not researching. Everyone wants to be a content creator/vtuber cause you can get into it pretty quickly but they don't think of what it entails if they're gonna start making money off of it whether on purpose or by going viral on accident. There's different licensing agreements, different copyright agreements, ect. No one ever thinks about this stuff when all they see is their favorite cute anime girl playing video games but it's there.
As a VGen artist, I agree that a VTuber model or any assets shouldn't be charged a commercial fees, BUT both parties should agree that the artist must be credited and hyperlinked on Stream Page, and must received an Artist Badge on Stream. That's on my side, that's how I deal with VTubers I worked with.... And we still live in harmony and they are still my regulars XD Edit: Because let be honest, not all streamers who just starting has instant money at the get go.
Especially since this takes so much planning and saving then suddenly you throw an extra 1k they don't have on top of it and hold their model hostage until they play.
I only do commissions strictly for commercial rights of distribution only, both exclusive and non-exclusive. And I rarely get those looking for personal use commissions (like gifts to friends or their own DND games). Mostly because my prices are upfront usually $500 and upwards of that, so those looking for personal use also rarely inquire after seeing my quotes. Unless they really want to engage me, they don't really come negotiating lower prices for personal use.
Even with my limited experience in the vtubing space this just sounds like the typical small business pitfall of someone who didn't really learn the ins and outs of the business side of things before embarking on selling the product. Which yeah having add on commercial fees for things that are OBVIOUSLY going to be used in a commercial context(vtubing models, twitch emotes, streaming screens and overlays) is daylight robbery and although I agree about reading artists' TOS for information on the same, the artist that brought it up is arguing about a seperate topic from Lyro's. This is about artists deliberately lowballing prices to bait people in with hidden fees that shouldn't be hidden, not about people who just bought art and thought they were being shortchanged bc they didn't read the pricing.
Sounds like a lot of people on VGEN don't realize they're running a business and not a hobby side hustle. All cost should be stipulated in contracts before work is begun. I do agree that stream rights for a character should not be included in commercial fee. If people want to slap their vtuber character on merch to sell that could be another story but just for use on stream. No.
The only part I disagree with her on and agree with how USA companies who provide lets say internet service have to tell you in detail what you are paying for so artists should to. As most I see do it in an image with text or in a text form on a commission website just have it as another line so the person who is buying it will know. It can be a fixed cost or a percentage of the total as long as it is on their sheet of how much for what it will be good.
Question are u adding the stream fee in the base price should or adding as a separate fee. Because I thought the streaming fee should already be in the base price and the merch and etc should be a commercial fee. Just asking.
my biggest issue with commission drawers/painters is that they collect money upfront just to make you wait for months after bcs "their mental health brakes".. or just completely leave you in the dark about ETA if i commission you for commercially used art.. i do so bcs i need that sh* now and not in 2 years that's why so many people use AI art now.. bcs it delivers without bitching around
@vernxen3498 yeah you're wrong in understanding me because of course you are. I like A.I. art being made from a place like grok from Twitter because it's like 18 bucks and I expect garbage that it will produce me because I want that. Now, if you're an artist with talent that's worth a damn and you're using a.i. You suck, pure and simple. That's the a.i. part, now artist overcharging part, is the reason why I like and use a.i. just because I want you to draw me a picture of park bench, I don't expect you to charge me enough as a electric bill, plus, 5 different fees, plus 5 more fees on top of that. its a hard pass. Especially if you buy it and can't use it on your site, is ridiculous. You're buying the damn thing to use it on said site, that's the point. Makes no sense
In this case, I think the onus is on the artist to be clear about their services. Some these days are making a distinction between commercial streaming rights and commercial merch/print rights. I don’t care as long as I know what’s up! I dont want to have to pull the info out of an artist on what they mean about commercial rights anymore. How is that my job as the buyer? 🥹
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Its called deceptive marketing and is a clear bait and switch. Depending on where you are, this is illegal.
yea its giving scammy, but like in a "peripheral vision" way. like in most cases it states it, sure, but albeit in a way thats hard to understand the pricing and unnecessary fees added on to it.
its like when contracts in cartoons put important information in small font nd then tell the client that "its in the fine print" 😅
if ure not trying to deceive people why not be direct ? oh cuz its almost like ur consumer count would drop wit the ridculous fees. but people dont wanna hear the truth that not everyone is fit to sell art/take commissions or even run a business. it runs deep.
On top of that, I wish artists would mention what THEY consider commercial. There are some that are obvious, but some artists will charge you for using the artwork on your stream schedule graphic, and some do not. Hell I've seen some people charge commercial for using the artwork as a pfp but only IF you're a streamer.
And granted, I've done commissions for years, so I completely stand by artists' rights to be paid.. but as an artist you 100% owe it to everyone to be fully transparent and save both yourself and potential clients the headache.
They went from starving artist to… manipulating consumers
I agree that the customers have expectations to be able to use an emotes they pay for
This why I always read every artists or seller ToS, if you're new as customer, feel free to ask them too or people around you who has order digital art products before and ask them how their experience was. Not part of the video, if you want emotes (or any digital art product) in short time, check each artists agenda and waitlist.
My commission prices are the final price, except for e.g additional characters or backgrounds which depend on the amount of detail requested, but I always tell the customer upfront the full, final price including all fees (especially for PayPal I think its against their TOS to have the customer pay certain fees like the transaction fee, it needs to be included in the final price they pay).
Its so disingenuous to charge fees without telling them upfront (or if you dont have them laid out clearly in your price list or commission profile). Its not that hard to show the customer before they recieve the invoice what their final price is and what fees theyre expected to pay.
This makes me realise how easy going I was and am as an artist that was commissioned. You commission me to do art, I do art. I tell l you you can do whatever with it because it's yours now.
And people have put it on merch and stuff... And... I don't care? It's theirs to do what they want with? 😅
Maybe I'm too old and old school for all this commercial rights drama
its the context of the comm, right? No, commercial rights shouldnt be included in general, 90% of my comms are for the clients own personal enjoyment, gift to a friend, profile photo, etc. To list a license fee that they dont need is making them pay extra for no reason.
On emotes, stream models, overlays, branding? Yeah. I think its fine to add an additional fee for merchandising rights, but content use rights should be included in comms of that nature. Thats what the product is for, and what people are going to use it for, so include it!
So I think it depends. If it’s a drawing people sometimes legitimately want drawings for personal use only so a commercial fee is fine. Even an emote can sometimes be used in private personal discord servers. But if it’s a streaming overlay it’s kind of false advertising. What would someone need a streaming overlay for other than streaming?
I feel like the difference is like advertising it as "Twitch Emotes" like clearly that's going to be used commercially/publicly for Twitch and then charging a commercial fee vs "Personal Emotes" which like you said could be used in personal discords or with friends or sumn like that. I think then the artist shouldn't advertise their art as "Twitch Emotes" if they're going to add fees for "commercial use" which is the ONLY WAY a Twitch emote could possibly be used.
Honestly I hate that VGen doesn't have a budget filter yet
no literally...
idk how well that will go because people will just do this kinda thing on a bigger scale. Like advertising lower prices but then there's a whole bunch of fees after the fact for "commercial license", editing fees, sketch fees, early delivery fee or whatever else they want to add which will jack up the prices after the fact. it'll end in more deceptive pricing models and make it harder for people looking to commission things.
I'm an artist too and you are supposed to buy commercial rights for anything like art music etc, if you are selling it. That is normal for anything. But I DO hate that no one shows what their commercial prices are. A lot of people will make it double the cost or + half whatever it costs originally. I DO wish there were different commercial ranges for a large company, a small team of 3-4 people vs. a single person using it commercially, or a way to offer a cut when it sells instead of a commercial price. I just wish they showed options.
But a lot of artists won't even post their commercial prices. I've done commissions a lot for years (I don't anymore burned out on art these days tbh) and years but I always showed all my prices. And then told them to ask if they want something not listed and i can tell them the price to see if they want it.
I made a post bc a friend was looking for art commissions for something specific, mentioned exactly what they wanted and I said 'post your samples and rates and if they are interested they will contact you' a bunch of people ignored the post and didn't even post their samples or made excuses or link to their stuff/or mention any prices and kept telling me to message them. I was like if you can't follow the post than just leave please lmfao. Like it feels like a lot of artists that don't post their rates(even if you are hourly that's fine, but say your rates) a lot of people are poor and I get art is a luxury but cornering people in a message or asking for their budget is so annoying, no messages should be had unless they know they can order in your prices for your work and they know they like your work. If you don't show your samples they don't know if they like it, and yes, your art is worth whatever price you sell it as--but not everyone can do a lot, so forcing them into a message and then saying some price they can't afford or something Makes them uncomfortable and then the artist usually gets annoyed that their time was wasted, or the person feels guilty bc they messaged it and do it anyways. It's SHADY. And a lot of artists *know that* It's worse when people ask what your budget is bc if it's not publicly posted, no one has any idea if you are scamming them out of more money and charging someone else less or vice versa. it's WEIRD.
I think some pieces should have the fee built in and some not, like obviously a streaming overlay should have a built in price for streaming and same with things advertised as twitch emotes but a normal illustration could go either way so that's when communication would have to happen to figure that out but I don't think people are wrong for seeing a 50 dollar price tag on something called TWITCH EMOTE and then being annoyed that they have to pay 100 dollars to use it on twitch when that's what it is advertised for.
Wild. This is like me buying a car and the dealership charging a "Road Driving" fee. XP
i saw this post and commented under, as both an artist and avid art buyer i can see both sides to the points, i myself wont purchase something if there is no clear tos/breakdown of their fees. the artist side of me understands not everyone will want commercial use in every commission so what i do and has worked for me smoothly thus far is having a section/group of my services that are inherently meant for streaming/content use and have all fees included in the base pricing (ex. panels, emotes), anything outside that group has a fee added if they want to use it as such, as well as having a faq that covers what i consider as comm or personal usage, obviously there will be those few that dont read so as a preventative measure vgen has a nifty lil thing where you can add pricing to an add-on option (ex. comm or merch use choices) and when they finish filling out the form they will see an accurate proposal and full breakdown of what is added to get to the price theyre seeing.
i thought it's already obvious that it was already put in the commercial price for the vtuber model? because just like you said it's obvious it's for vtubing. so it's used for streaming.
Now for emotes samething it should be in commercial price already because it's obvious it's going to be use for commercial purpose(Streaming,etc)
Portrait or Art used for Merch, Promotion and etc. that i understand you can add to the personal fee(the Actual price) a commercial fee. because that's the common.
It's giving "used car salesman" energy.
Commercial use is any reproduction or purpose that is marketed, promoted, or sold and incorporates a financial transaction.
Non-commercial use encompasses a wide range of exciting possibilities-including artistic, educational, scholarly, and personal projects that will not be marketed, promoted, or sold.
Therefore sorry to break it to you but for twitch stuff a commercial licence must be included as an expense when buying anything for your channel.
I do however agree that what you’re paying for should be clearly broken down for whoever is buying from you which you can easily have on your commission page and have it lay out certain use cases to at the least make sure that you and your buyer are on the same page.
I think part of the reason why some people may be confused are because of the inconsistencies between different artists when it comes to pricing break down schemes especially if that artist is super young and using it as a way to gain experience or a quick buck, and is also not familiar with basic marketing and business expectations that they unfortunately then end up passing on to their consumers who then view that as the minimum expectation.
Your claim that a commercial license is always required for Twitch because of subs or donations isnt really what "commercial use" actually means. While commercial use usually involves profit or financial transactions, it depends on how the asset is used, the intent behind it, and the terms set by the artist or seller.
While the VTuber model may help promote your channel, it is not the same as a company using a mascot to sell a product. In the case of streaming, you're not making money directly from the model itself or selling a product associated with it, which differentiates it from commercial promotion like McDonald's using their mascot to market food. (if you are using your model in a sponsor section that probs would require one. as you can tell its very confusing and not very easy to say what is okay and whats not.)
Subscriptions and donations are seen as support for the streamer, not as payment for the asset itself. Since the model or art is just part of your creative content, not a product, many vtubers don’t require a commercial license for this type of use. (Besides I don't think it will hold up in court if a artist tried to fight someone who didnt buy a license and was getting dono's because its a blurry line and the vtuber could argue the money is just fans supporting the stream not the model.)
Unless the artist’s terms explicitly say, "You need a license to use this for streaming," you don’t need one-unless you’re planning to sell products featuring the model, like T-shirts.
TL;DR: Using a VTuber model or any art stuff on Twitch doesn’t automatically require a commercial license just because you receive subs or donations. subs and donations support the streamer, and when people buy them they are buying it for the streamer not the art directly, so it’s not traditional "commercial use." and it's very unlikely it would hold up in court unless the artist said "You need a license to use this for streaming," in their terms. The need for a license depends on the artist’s terms and how the asset is use. Always check the artist specific terms of use. IMO I believe artists should just sell the commercial rights with the product and add the commercial rights cost to the model. I mean just imagine if someone who didnt pay for the rights started to use the model for money and you're trying to fight with the courts to get justice. it's not worth the hassle and thats what Ive been doing. My art is more expensive bc the rights are include, you can't buy the model without the extra fees 😭
I WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS YESTERDAY I HATE THIS SO SO MUCH TYYYY
I've had this conversation with friends about how so many artists on Vgen are hobbyists who don't know anything about licensing.
I know of at least one artist who said they retain commercial rights to all their work. And okay, fair. But for the amount they were charging me for commercial rights, I'd like them to be exclusive rights. I don't want to put time and effort into creating a market for a character only to have the artist compete with me in selling merch for it.
.. it turned out the artist thought reserving the right for her to use it commercially meant that she could put it in her portfolio.
Ngl, i didn't know this is an issues for some artists. I didn't know that there some artists that are a bit exploitative with the commercial fees.
When i was commisioning artist they always told me that there are additional fee if i use it commercialy. And they also explained to me what commercial use are.
So far in my experience of commisioning artists, they always put it in their TOS. Though it is nice idea if they show it in the commision sheet.
Another think, when an artist want charge you commercial right on your own design just because they will draw it x)
For me commercial right it's when you sell stuff.
If you have a good relation with your artist, you discuss with your artist for see how much fee your artist will charge you if you decide to sell stuff he draw. Example, your artist gain % per sell if you take this path with your artist.
I hope that Solcyon person as well as anyone who supports not putting the full price upfront gets replaced by AI.
Another thing that i saw is that people tend to not put their commission prices up at all.
I absolutely would not even ask the person "how much is your commission prices" most of the time. Its the same with like high brand stuff. If you see no price tag, typically you would think its too expensive for normal people like me.
I too hate feeling like i don have enough money for it if it turns out that i dont have the funds for it on hand.
PLEASE PUT UP THE ROUGH PRICES. Even if you have to state that those are rough prices and could fluctuate depending on the designs and comm requests.
It really depends on whats being sold there is a difference between personal use commissions and commercial use so I think in a commission sheet it should be emphasized of "these prices are only for PERSONAL USE pleae contact me for commerical use commissions for a full quote." TLDR; communication is key in this situation of pricing and more
I can understand for illustration to not have a merchandising fee included with them directly, that you have to buy extra, but when I have a "commercial fee" to post it on twitter it feel like bullshit.. Like I buy a illustration and can't even show it ? it's the same for the commercial commission without a commercial fee included, wdym I need to pay extra to use a overlay I paid for on twitch as... my overlay? People are really overdoing it with the commercial fee, treating it as a broadcasting fee, if you want to get paid extra for those, put it already and put the merchandising fee as an extra!
As an artist I got people checking my Commercial fee extra because they wanna use it as a icon and I'm like "Bro you ain't making money with that it's not commercial" Q_Q. Yeah it's branding but they ain't making direct money with that T_T
I think it's become a thing since VGEN has an offer and option for "Commercial Rights: Streaming / Content Use" , and from there a lot of artists have added an additional fee if you use said artwork in that regard. Example for an illustration to be used as a starting soon screen, pfp, banner, panel etc they will charge an extra fee regardless of the size of creator you are just to use it for that.
It's illegal to charge commercial fees over digital products as it's against the TOS of Paypal and the likes. You are right that it's often new commission artists who don't realise these things. I feel like these people need a class about fees, royalties and the likes
Tbh I appreciate this video, cuz that means I know to put my fee list not just in my TOS but also probably will put it on the payment page at the top in bold letters
Are you animations $50 on top of the $40 for the base emote, though? It could be confusing whether the animation is an extra $50 or an extra $10.
for this example, i believe she means “if you want an animated emote, it would be 90 dollars total. for art and the animation.” she was saying it was 50 dollars additional for that emote fee to be animated. the art is still 40 dollars regardless
When I started years ago with commissions, I used to look at a bunch of prices, descriptions, Tos, and process from artists who is familiar with taking commissions so that I know that I am doing the right thing (I'm around 13 this time.) especially since I'm fully aware that I am going to be taking real money, also learned about commercial prices around this time too.
I don't charge additional fees for commercial use if it will be used in streams or at least digital platform (the commercial fee is already included on its price), as long as the client don't distribute the art itself for profit. (selling online for digital copy/ selling on merch, selling as stickers, etc.)
What is happening now? it's like so many artists nowadays just open up commissions just because they want to and doesn't have any plans or at least a bit of knowledge on how to do it either 😢
Maybe this is happening too before and I'm just not aware of that when I started, but now that I have seen these types of stuff... If this continues, smaller artists will find it harder to have someone commission them because of trust issues/ problems which is not just this, but many more problematic reasons.
I don't even do stuff for commercial use right now, specifically adoptables. I'm far too new to selling them to know what I'm doing with commercial fees so I've decided not to fuck with it for now.
I dont care what your TOS says. To me there should never be any confusion. Give an estimate with what's included and what's not. Don't add fees later. That is BS. If you arent happy with the estimate, then just dont buy it. Simple as that. No one gets hurt.
Ahaha I love how Kat constantly mentions boba as a comparison when it comes to situations like these
Most of my commissioners don't want commercial rights but it states in my ToS that commercial rights is +100% of the og comm. If they wanna make stickers out of an emote, an emote from me is $15 and the commercial upcharge would make it $30 total. For me, getting commercial rights means to use it on merch and also means that I won't post the art willy nilly for memes and such. Its their art now.
I don't use Vgen but artistree and whenever someone submits a request form, I breakdown the charges like:
Full shade Full Body: $70
Full shade Full Body Additional Character: $35
Full Shade BG: $30
Something along those lines. I can't understand how some artists can overcharge like that. Its breaks my heart tbh
You should be stating both your commission and commercial fees or you should have a statement somewhere that says "contact for talks about commercial use" cause commercial fees are of course person by person and commission by commission. Not everyone is commercializing the art every time so slapping commercial fees on something that doesn't need it is weird that also means slapping commercial fees on all of your stuff up front doesn't make sense though either.
I don't think emotes should have commercial fees. Things like logos, vtuber models, merch, ect, are what really matters for commercial use.
Also I think another problem is people who are new to getting into making their own brand/business. In this case, vtubing/content creation. They tend to have no idea what commercial licensing even is or that it exists. That's not the artists fault, that's yours for not researching. Everyone wants to be a content creator/vtuber cause you can get into it pretty quickly but they don't think of what it entails if they're gonna start making money off of it whether on purpose or by going viral on accident. There's different licensing agreements, different copyright agreements, ect.
No one ever thinks about this stuff when all they see is their favorite cute anime girl playing video games but it's there.
I really enjoy these kinds of videos 🧘
As a VGen artist, I agree that a VTuber model or any assets shouldn't be charged a commercial fees, BUT both parties should agree that the artist must be credited and hyperlinked on Stream Page, and must received an Artist Badge on Stream. That's on my side, that's how I deal with VTubers I worked with.... And we still live in harmony and they are still my regulars XD
Edit: Because let be honest, not all streamers who just starting has instant money at the get go.
Especially since this takes so much planning and saving then suddenly you throw an extra 1k they don't have on top of it and hold their model hostage until they play.
I only do commissions strictly for commercial rights of distribution only, both exclusive and non-exclusive. And I rarely get those looking for personal use commissions (like gifts to friends or their own DND games). Mostly because my prices are upfront usually $500 and upwards of that, so those looking for personal use also rarely inquire after seeing my quotes. Unless they really want to engage me, they don't really come negotiating lower prices for personal use.
6:16 FFRRRR I LOVE LYRO!!!
Even with my limited experience in the vtubing space this just sounds like the typical small business pitfall of someone who didn't really learn the ins and outs of the business side of things before embarking on selling the product. Which yeah having add on commercial fees for things that are OBVIOUSLY going to be used in a commercial context(vtubing models, twitch emotes, streaming screens and overlays) is daylight robbery and although I agree about reading artists' TOS for information on the same, the artist that brought it up is arguing about a seperate topic from Lyro's. This is about artists deliberately lowballing prices to bait people in with hidden fees that shouldn't be hidden, not about people who just bought art and thought they were being shortchanged bc they didn't read the pricing.
Sounds like a lot of people on VGEN don't realize they're running a business and not a hobby side hustle. All cost should be stipulated in contracts before work is begun. I do agree that stream rights for a character should not be included in commercial fee. If people want to slap their vtuber character on merch to sell that could be another story but just for use on stream. No.
The only part I disagree with her on and agree with how USA companies who provide lets say internet service have to tell you in detail what you are paying for so artists should to.
As most I see do it in an image with text or in a text form on a commission website just have it as another line so the person who is buying it will know. It can be a fixed cost or a percentage of the total as long as it is on their sheet of how much for what it will be good.
i am on the same boat of including commercial (streaming) fees in prices already and merchandise fees separate if needed
Question are u adding the stream fee in the base price should or adding as a separate fee. Because I thought the streaming fee should already be in the base price and the merch and etc should be a commercial fee. Just asking.
I thought all artists put commercial fees as a seperate options in the add-on tab option? Were they not doing this?
ah I see. They're adding it on as a way to put up the price on a cheap emote insted of fairly pricing both the emote and fees
@@Sasha-wp5uvit’s similar to the Project Melody scandal. Some dishonest people are taking advantage, hurting the market
Commission fees unless your commissioning the artist's own oc.
Is it me or is the mic peaking 😭😭??
This artist was talking shit about ur vid without even watching it
I simply do not give people commercial rights to use my art for profit.
huh ? where is my comment?
its gone? what ?
did she remove it ?
maybe youtube bot?
lemme try say NSFW
YAYAYYA
If I pay someone for art of my character. I’m using that art however I want. If the artist has a big name that may be different.
Am I first?--
Hi im third! How r u
EARLYYY AGAINNN
Hi!(pls pin and first!)
my biggest issue with commission drawers/painters is that they collect money upfront just to make you wait for months after bcs "their mental health brakes".. or just completely leave you in the dark about ETA
if i commission you for commercially used art.. i do so bcs i need that sh* now and not in 2 years
that's why so many people use AI art now.. bcs it delivers without bitching around
Yeah this is why i use A.I. Art. No hassle, no nonsense, it's not the best but it doesn't come with all this garbage.
Yeah you’re on the wrong channel if you call AI creations using stolen artwork “art”
@vernxen3498 yeah you're wrong in understanding me because of course you are. I like A.I. art being made from a place like grok from Twitter because it's like 18 bucks and I expect garbage that it will produce me because I want that. Now, if you're an artist with talent that's worth a damn and you're using a.i. You suck, pure and simple. That's the a.i. part, now artist overcharging part, is the reason why I like and use a.i. just because I want you to draw me a picture of park bench, I don't expect you to charge me enough as a electric bill, plus, 5 different fees, plus 5 more fees on top of that. its a hard pass. Especially if you buy it and can't use it on your site, is ridiculous. You're buying the damn thing to use it on said site, that's the point. Makes no sense
In this case, I think the onus is on the artist to be clear about their services. Some these days are making a distinction between commercial streaming rights and commercial merch/print rights. I don’t care as long as I know what’s up! I dont want to have to pull the info out of an artist on what they mean about commercial rights anymore. How is that my job as the buyer? 🥹