People too passionate are rarely the best investors. That worth for wine, watches, cars, art, etc. Most people prefer stocks because there is no emotional attachment when it comes to selling it for profit.
Absolutely agree with Konstantin. I was an investment analyst in China twelve years ago. People get more interested in alternative investments when they suddenly have a lot of money. They would learn that one of the best investments is still the stock market: lower transaction fees, higher liquidity, minimal holding cost, and reliable track record over decades.
Thanks. One thing you didn’t mention is that to get your hands on a case of the top stuff many merchants will insist that you also buy several cases of lesser wine that may drink well but has no investment potential. I’ve been buying for about 35 years and have only ever gone for wines I wanted to drink. Some have gone up unbelievably (eg Chave Hermitage 1990 from £20 to £2,000 per bottle in thirty years, or Grange des Peres 1998 from £24 to £860 over the same time) but these wines were bought out of real love and interest and a lot of pleasurable time at tastings etc. If you were a cool- headed investor you would need to charge that time against profit realised and would conclude that it wasn’t worth it!
I invested a few years ago and did ok on some cases and not so well on others. My main issue was i owned all these fantastic wines but i never got to see them as they were hidden away in bonded stores. So one day i decided to jack it in, i sold any in my portfolio which didnt interest me or had gone up a lot in value and the rest which i actually liked i got delivered to my house. I now have a large eurocave which i am filling with wines ive always wanted to try or that have interesting stories and im much happier for it.
Great video! A factor to consider would also be inflation. If you buy a bottle for $1k and sell it for $2k but the cost of money has doubled then after costs you’ve made a loss so you’d really need to know what you are doing but love the idea of it. Reckon you’d feel like a boss auctioning these wines off for a huge profit! 🍷😀
Some years ago a group of friends asked if I'd be interested in investing with them in a case of La Tache. I held out for aging it then drinking it to educate ourselves and for the enjoyment. In the end, we dropped the idea.
With COVID more people have sold bottles on auction sites where prices are right up there with the high street... I myself have had no luck with wine investments. Tried to sell one of my CGV Le Musigny - but no one wanted to buy the stuff. I've accepted the hedonistic route. Cheers Konstantin.
Great video on an interesting topic! I have some investment wine, although not for very long now (started in 2018 with some 2013-ish vintages and later added some en primeur from Bordeaux). I have about 13 different wines and some champagne and the returns are at least green now after costs. Some are very green at 20%pa and others barely, at 0.78%pa. It's a hobby and an interest, but not the most profitable investment around...
Great video. I've been buying and selling with BBX for about a decade now with the intention that the profit on very expensive wines can then be used to buy very good wines I can actually afford to drink. You just have to accept the fact that the time horizon can be very long indeed. Given the transaction cost on sale which may run to 10%, plus storage, it can take a long time to be back in the money especially with average vintages or those where the winemakers have spotted just how high demand is likely to be for an exceptional vintage, priced the wine high on EP release and not left much on the table for the initial buyer. Definitely a market for genuine "investors" rather than "traders"
Very rational explanation of wine investment. I have had a wine collection for decades and selling your old wines is quite complex. There several middlemen who will take a chunk of your sale. The one fact you omitted is the tax due on your gain. You don’t want the IRS running after you for the tax on the capital gain. I find trading or bartering with other collectors easier and more satisfying without the tax liability. Well done and clear discussion on wine investment.
I think building the credibility as a trustworthy seller is possibly one of the toughest part of investment. And predicting en primeur wines, bidding on auctions takes some level of luck. I'll just keep it to drink it myself. Keeping a case of wine for like 5 years isn't very feasible for non merchants in my opinion 😅
I have Bordeaux 1986( Chateau Goffreteau) just waiting for the right occasion ,I have it for 10 years but just never had the right occasion to open it yet or either forget .
I agree 100% over your thoughts! It is indeed more complicated to manage, store and handle a wine investment! Moreover, usually it requires a minimum higher investment usually around $5000. However, definitely in a diversified portfolio makes sense!
This is a great video in so many ways. In my opinion, you need to be selective with what your money is going towards based on your personal budget, so the ROI is at the very least, break even; and the social elements of wine consumption can be continued. However, in relation to an investment account, these are very conservative, long-term investments that require a larger upfront cost in that investment, which an average consumer would not consider being feasible. That being said, selective purchasing could be very profitable, long term and on a budget, so long as the purchases are able to be re-sold in a private transaction, or appropriate market.
Nice Video. I Mostly going to drink the wine myself after 10 to 15 years. But I really like to see the Price increase After 10-15 Years . it’s always fun to talk about the Price when i bought the wine and the Price When trinkt the Wein With my Friends
The purpose of my wine collection is to drink it! Keeping wine is much more fun and enjoyable (to me) when you only are concerned about what food to pair it with :)
Great video but I think you need to add a warning about this. I am a winemaker here in Maryland, USA. Any individual or company that sells alcohol in any form, for any monetary value, is very illegal and requires a liquor sales license by the state they are in. This is a big deal and considered a felony. I’ve unfortunately had customers of mine sell some of their bottles privately, got caught, and went to jail. Please incorporate a Warning in your video that resell if alcohol may not be allowed to all your viewers. Great video & Cheers!
Konstantin, your videos are a great way to continue to build on the passion for wine we all seem to share. I did not start collecting wines to turn a profit, but over time there are certainly wines that I did not want to drink due to their escalating price. Having said that, there are also wines that have dramatically increased in price that I love, and cannot imagine parting with like my Keller GGs, Pierre Peters Chettillons, and most of the Red Burgs I've bought. My cellar has always been intended as a "drinking cellar" rather than an investment cellar. For me the generosity of those that had a cellar while I was learning defined my idea of what wine is about. Sharing & creating unique memories.
I bought 4x12 bottles of Bordeaux 2019. Great year and low price due to covid. Best en primeur year since 1990. Some years back i bought a lot of Chateauneuf du pape. It was hot then due to Parker. And excellent prices. Sometimes the top wines i bought got 100 points by Parker and i could sell it at 3 times than what i bought it for. I bought the luxury/ cuvee wines for sale so i could finance the wines i bought for myself. But sadly CNDP has increased insanly since then. At least for most of the best. Like so many others. Especially Burgundy.
Great video! I have personally started investing in wines last year. Like you said, if the ROI after a few years doesn’t seem to be there, at least you have a great bottle to enjoy, rather than some digital number in your shares portfolio. Finding the right channels to sell wine as a small investor is a gap in the market I think. For example an auction house will not have an interest to sell €5k of my wine. What do you think about Catawiki as a buyer and sellers market for small investors like myself?
Most people its better to just go with a good stock portfolio and just drink you wine. Its never a bad idea to have a few investment bottles in storage as backup when you really need some at some point and if you dont much better you can enjoy some great wine
Ich habe einige Weine als Investment gekauft. 2016 Cos d‘Estournel . Und ein paar Grand Cru‘s aus dem Burgund. Und ein Paar Flaschen Ch. Montrose. Wir werden sehen ob die Weine als Investment taugen, falls nicht werde ich sie mit Freude trinken. Für mich ist es aber in erster Linie ein Hobby.
Thank you again for sharing g your views n opinions! I really would like to starting investing on fine wines n am quite positive with the idea. May I also ask you what you think on investing in vineyards and winary?
Finding highly rated (ideally a highly RP rated) bottles at auction, that haven’t been identified by the auction house as such, can bring about some good returns. It doesn’t happen often, but it does happen.
I try to not invest in things don’t truly understand, so I’m only holding some for personal interest, hoping to enjoy. Also, I seldom have more than 2 to 3 bottles of any one selection, usually only 1 or 2.
I love your way of combining facts, fun facts and humour, it really makes your videos both entertaining and at the same time well worth watching from a learning perspective as well. Keep up the good work!
I was in the trade for many years and as you said, if you couldn’t sell it you can always drink it! I was always surprised that I was rarely left with much that didn’t sell. I never bought wine for investment as I always felt that that was idiots with to much money and small penises!!
For private sellers I am not really sure. There are a few plattforms but they are usually run by a merchant like BBX and you need to store it with them. Usually you have to go through a wine merchant ... you can also sell it on ebay...
Thank you Konstantin for such a great video! I didn't know that - much like Oil - the Wineries restrict production in order to drive up price, yet wine as a commodity is not traded in the same as Oil or even others like Wheat/Grain/ a la the Chicago Mercantile exchange. Or maybe it is and I just don't know :). I originally found your video by searching for how to make money off of wine exporting and this gave me a great start. I will watch more of your videos for sure.
My cellar is not good enough for long therm storage and I‘m too lazy for the reselling process. So I only buy what I drink or what I share with friends. I have about 300 bottles in my cellar.
If I made money from investing in wine, I would probably spend it on more wine anyway... I think aging wine for personal consumption makes more sense to me, if I drink an age-worthy wine in 10 years I have saved money compared to buying it at the time of consumption, that's good enough for me. My portfolio should be diversified enough anyway, there are stocks of companies producing good alcoholic beverages, like Moet-Hennessy and I have some share through ETFs. Of course if you happen to buy that one wine that gives you a 100x return, that's great but you would have to be lucky, it's like any kind of stock picking but that won't be the return you can expect on average.
Sehr interessantes Video; vielen Dank! Ich habe einiges in die Bordeaux Jahrgänge 2008/9 und 10 investiert u.a. in Palmer, Montrose, Pontet Canet, Clinet, Leoville Barton, beide Pichons, Beausejour Duffau Lagarosse …… Was wäre besser ?! Nun verkaufen oder besser noch liegen lassen?
I agree any type of market you know about can be a way to generate money. Perhaps wine can be a fun diversification if you're savvy about it already, but I'll stick to my low-cost mutual funds for consistent returns :)
Thank you, very informative , I am ( by sheer luck ) on DRC ‘s direct allocation list in the U.K. , so , thankfully no problems with provenance . DRC ‘s prices have rocketed so spectacularly ( particularly , over the last 10 years ) - I cannot even imagine opening any of my bottles of DRC to drink , but I did ( fortuitously ) attend the most spectacular DRC ( horizontal / vertical ) DRC wine tasting on valentine’s day in 2008 , and the majesty of La Tache 1990 … still lingers, haunting my taste buds …..
There is one thing I couldn't find deeper info about and I am really curious what a MW can tell me about: In the EU it is allowed to blend several vintages. And still a winemaker can legally put a certain vintage on the label as long as it consists at least of 85% of one vintage. How often do winemakers really do vintage blending, especially in regions like Bordeaux? Or is it a no-go to many?
There are no stats on that. I would say that it is quite difficult logistically for smaller producers to blend in older vintages and there is little upside. It does happen however but no one likes to talk about it.
It is probably one inevitable, but should be counteracted as it is running the market for wine lovers. Wine is meant to be drunk and should be sold at a price that corresponds to its production cost and quality.
I've been investing since 2020, here in the UK it's a lot easier and practical: tax-free on profits, VAT free for investing, cheap storage rates with insurance, great offer of trusted merchants with guaranteed provenance and decent liquidity (in the financial sense, not the drinking sense lol) for investment grade labels and it's super accessible for small investors like me. I've been having excellent returns on super tuscans and champagne.
Do you suggest to open a case and wrap the bottles or would you rather store the wine in the closed box when you plan on keeping it for 15-25 years as an investment?
There are two opinions on this topic. Some say a closed case is better. I would argue that it is important to verify that the correct wine is in the case and that it is undamaged when you buy and sell it.
Thank you for your advice master Konstantin .. I was about to invest.. now I need to think twice, or, like those ppl who buy 2 cases, one for drink, and 2 for sell or drink 😘
To be honest I have bought a few bottles for reselling purposes. So far I have only sold a case of port, which gave me a 15% return in less then 2 years. Which is better then most investments I've made. Currently also trying investments in beer, whisky, rum and other distilled goods as they tend to be easier to enter then the wine investment market.
Hi Konstantin. Sorry to bother you again as I already asked this question to you in the past. I am a West diploma student and as you may know we are trained with the "acceptable,good,very good and outstanding" scale in order to evaluate the wine's quality. But I have been interested in understanding how to use the 100-point scale of Parker and even though I searched for it, I actually could not find a complete explanation on how to use and on how to relate it to the Wset scale. As Im sure you know how to use, could you tell me please how it works?
You can look at the scale and explanations on robertparker.com: www.robertparker.com/resources/vintage-chart They use the same terms to describe the ratings so this should make it easy for you to compare.
I have a couple of wines that I buy futures in. Originally I did this just to get them at a lower price, with the full intent to drink them. But these are wines that really should have some significant bottle age, and as I get older I’ve converted most of my allotment to large format bottles (3L, for example), because there’s a decent chance I won’t get around to drinking them, and the return on the larger formats is better if/when I sell them. We’re not talking volumes or prices high enough that I’d ever get rich, but I might make a nice little profit at least. And if I’m still healthy enough to enjoy them when they’re ready to drink I can throw some pretty decent parties.
A vibrant market really doesn’t exist outside of first growth Bordeaux, grand cru level Burgundy, and select global cult wines like Screaming Eagle. Good luck on getting allocations of those.
Not for me. Building up a supply of investment wines would take too long and too much space. Being able to liquidate and provide a steady stream of income would be foolhardy ambition. Best to buy good wines and share them with your friends. The good conversation and friendship is a better return.
I think you provide GREAT information, however, it would be even better if you talked a little bit slower. I find myself having to rewind often while watching your videos to absorb the information you're providing. Thank you fir all your information!!!
Congratulations on the new kids. When you have the time, I would love more videos in the 10 minutes series and how to pronounce German wine words and spell them. I’m a native English speaker who knows squat about German and I don’t want to loose points for not spelling words correctly.
What happens to the value of a fine collectible wine when it has aged past its peak? Seems like, eventually, you either drink it or realize you have a very expensive case of salad dressing.
Wine investment is risky. For a private person, the intension should be always to buy wines you would drink, thus do not buy wines which are far above your financial situation. If you can sell a part after 5 or 10 years it is the best situation (and you can use the money to buy more. This is the traditional way to build up a cellar!).
I buy a lot of wine en primeur but always for future drinking. If I peg out before my wife, who doesn't drink, she has a windfall. 2020 will be my last year of buying en primeur as I am 66 and unlikely to live long enough to enjoy the wine.
If you have great storage conditions, and you have great knowledge of what you're buying, of course wine is going to be a great vehicle. It doesn't have to be Mouton, Haut-Brion, Petrus, Latour, etc. if you're a new investor in the wine world I would say start with Tignanello and Sassicaia. In the last 2-3 years the market for those 2 super Tuscans have been over the top crazy. I made around 400-500% profits with the 2015 and 2016 vintages alone. Those were exceptional vintages of course, but if you need a little spice in your portfolio, wine is an exciting platform to try. The worst that could happen is the wine you bought for profit ends up being tasted with friends if it doesn't perform as well as you expected it to. Don't forget to put some Japanese Wagyu A5 on some extremely hot cast iron cooking plate while you open a Tignanello, to remember life isn't always about profit$, but also being rich of great friendships.
Sassicaia ex-domain is like 100€ or even less. So of course if you have it direct domain you will make money. Same with Tignanello. Not the same game with the top 10 Bordeaux or even Burgundy. Just saying 🙂
Hi Konstantin, ich würde gerne junge Weine (in Kisten) kaufen und dann lagern, aber nicht zum Verkauf, sondern für den späteren Genuss. Kannst du evtl. mal dazu ein Video machen, also auf was man alles achten muss (Gebiet, Ernte & Witterung usw.) und wo man solchen Weine quasi im Presale herbekommt. Also nicht in 800.000 Dollar Fässer 😂 Danke für die tollen Videos!
Totaly true , I would add when you collect top of the line , you don t need a gigantic cave ( May be except the biggest collection) then you have less risq to broke one when manipulating
At moment German Riesling GG and Italian Barolo are still cheap. Bordeaux is good value now after a decade long price stagnation. Avoid Burgundy and California. As market broadens, Chile and Argentina could be also interesting.
@@EricZeak Talking about Germany: if you haven't registered for business, you can't get back VAT you pay with purchase. If it's your business you can get back the VAT from tax authorities and save this money for more investment (here 19 percent) -> but if you sell you must include VAT in invoice and give that amount to tax authorities. It's called "item/money in transit", because this amount is not yours and has to be paid by your customer or auction house to you. If your future customer is a professional, too, he can get back the VAT paid to you.
Do you think there will be another influential figure in wine like Robert Parker? Will it be a reviewer or something else? (RUclipsr maybe?) it’s interesting to think about how it would even happen and how the industry would accommodate it. what says you? -Chris
I have a bottle of 1990 Petrus Pomerol. I've moved it into a controlled environment. Your thoughts on the maturity of the vintage, and from ROI aspect when in your opinion would it be good to sell it?
1990 is a really good vintage in Bordeaux. A Petrus 1990 value on the market (public market) is around $5,000. But if you want to sell it to a broker, he will more likely try to buy it for $3,500 to $4,000 top, but that bis for a perfect bottle. So your ROI depend at how much did you pay. But the broker will examine the bottle very closely to see how the bottle condition is. If there is a little scratch or anything else on the label then you loose already 20% of the value. Same if the cork looks bad, or the level of the wine is low, and the broker will want to know your storage conditions from the beginning, etc.... so many factors will define the final price. But at the end of the day, selling just one bottle is not necessarily profitable for a merchant. A case as a better value. If you have only one bottle, open it and drink it. You will have one opportunity to drink it, and I hope you have an educated palate to be able to appreciate the level of this wine and this vintage. 😊
Very interesting - thanks 🙏. Is there a similar thing as “growth shares” in wine? I.e winemakers who today might not be on anybodys radar but who (presumeably) will be highly sought after in the future? Obviously more risky investments but also more thrilling maybe (although unfolding in slow motion 😂). Shouldn’t someone with your talents be able to give a qualified guess about which wines today may be the next 1982 Lafite Rothschild? Or doesn’t wine investment work this way? Like the big will always be the biggest?
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine on a personal note... where would you advise to sell yr wines ive been collecting clarets since 1985 when my father lived in the bordeaux area and i bought most of the 1e gcs as premier tranche via the usual sources never realising the far east would bump up the prices to where they are now.. im an amateur not really nessecary to sell but too many to drink them all in the next 10 years..gruess/rien
I am not sure why my comment didn't got published :S anyway I've invested some money either in a specific vineyard or in a collection of luxury brands - under the Wines&Joy umbrella. A trend which I am curious to explore is the wine world together with NFTs, I see some wineries moving in that direction, as well, as entire digital wineries (which I am still wondering why). I also have a chat with a small producer here in Germany, who is keen to explore the NFT's world and wine... Any thoughts on that?
Treibt leider die Preise für gute Tropfen ins unermessliche und schließt einen Großteil von passionierten Weintrinkern von den großen Weinen aus. So ist da jedoch in jedem Markt und deshalb muss man wohl damit leben.
Kommt darauf an, ab welchem Grad man beginnt von einem guten Tropfen zu sprechen? Ich trinke gerne in der Preisklasse von 10 bis 40 Euro und würde sagen, da gibt es keine Knappheit an erlesenen Tropfen. Können Sie ein Beispiel geben wo Sie persönlich bei Weinen, die Sie regelmäßig trinken, solche inakzeptablen Steigerungen erfahren?
"If you dont have a cellar, you need to pay for storage..." Not true in the USA. 90% of our houses have air condition and stay at a constant 65-72*F. Almost any American can store wine in an interior closet indefinitely.
Wrong, even if most of the US houses have A/C, it doesn't mean you can store wines properly. A winery cellar temperature is 12°C (53°F) constant. So you need a constant 53°F to store your wines properly, without vibrations, light and having a constant humidity level. 60% is generally the common level admitted by everyone in the business, including producers. More you have temperature fluctuation, more your wines will aged quickly. Just a fact. At 65-72°F, the wine will aged like 50% more rapidly than at 53°F. So you need a proper storage if you want to invest in wines. Period.
I sometimes, with luck, try "the 2 cases of wine strategy". I usually consider reviews and recent price development history, such that I know that I get a reasonable chance to pay it off. However if the strategy fails I am technically ready to consume all of it myself. It real issue is that the strategy consumes a lot of space, and my wine cooler only takes up to some 110 bottles, and on my cellar-shelf's I only allocate for some 40 surplus bottles (cheaper wines for food and wines that I will soon drink). So high quality (temperature and humidity controlled) storage really is the limiting factor in perusing this kind of strategy. So for most people it really can't pay off, as they have to use an external storage facility, designed to hold wines over a certain price range. Still it is fun to drink "technically free" wine, so for the majority of people it is really the fun of the "game", rather than an actually investment.
This worked for me back in the mid 80's when I bought some very good 1982 Bordeaux as futures. I paid less than $60 for Mouton and Haut- Brion and sold then at auction for $1,200 & $850 as well as other 82 Bordeaux. I also sold some 1989 ch Beaucastel as well some California wines. I used the money to buy 2009 & 2010 futures but the prices were high then due to interest from China. They are worth more now but not mush more.
whole thing seems like an over bloated meme that became scam and everyone decided to go with it… thankfully it is changing though, natural wine wave, vivino and other democratic wine things are a counter point to this Parker 100 point wine nonsense
Innit. Perhaps I’m just jealous of people with loads of money, but the idea of stashing wine away rather than drinking it is so sad for me. By all means, Cellar your wine correctly, but buying with the sole purpose of investment return just seems contrary to the romance with which the wine was made.
I like the idea of investing in wine but I tend to enjoy drinking it more.
People too passionate are rarely the best investors.
That worth for wine, watches, cars, art, etc. Most people prefer stocks because there is no emotional attachment when it comes to selling it for profit.
Absolutely agree with Konstantin. I was an investment analyst in China twelve years ago. People get more interested in alternative investments when they suddenly have a lot of money. They would learn that one of the best investments is still the stock market: lower transaction fees, higher liquidity, minimal holding cost, and reliable track record over decades.
100%
Thanks. One thing you didn’t mention is that to get your hands on a case of the top stuff many merchants will insist that you also buy several cases of lesser wine that may drink well but has no investment potential.
I’ve been buying for about 35 years and have only ever gone for wines I wanted to drink. Some have gone up unbelievably (eg Chave Hermitage 1990 from £20 to £2,000 per bottle in thirty years, or Grange des Peres 1998 from £24 to £860 over the same time) but these wines were bought out of real love and interest and a lot of pleasurable time at tastings etc. If you were a cool- headed investor you would need to charge that time against profit realised and would conclude that it wasn’t worth it!
My wine investment strategy. Buy wine, then drink it with friends. The returns far exceed the investment every time!
I invested a few years ago and did ok on some cases and not so well on others. My main issue was i owned all these fantastic wines but i never got to see them as they were hidden away in bonded stores. So one day i decided to jack it in, i sold any in my portfolio which didnt interest me or had gone up a lot in value and the rest which i actually liked i got delivered to my house. I now have a large eurocave which i am filling with wines ive always wanted to try or that have interesting stories and im much happier for it.
Interesting, did you use livex when you were still trading?
@NooneStaar no i relied solely on a broker but if i did it again I would. I use Berry Brothers BBX alot now to buy and if I want to sell anything.
@@NooneStaar Bot
@@dennykeaton9701 nah man I was just asking a question LOL
Great video! A factor to consider would also be inflation. If you buy a bottle for $1k and sell it for $2k but the cost of money has doubled then after costs you’ve made a loss so you’d really need to know what you are doing but love the idea of it. Reckon you’d feel like a boss auctioning these wines off for a huge profit! 🍷😀
Some years ago a group of friends asked if I'd be interested in investing with them in a case of La Tache. I held out for aging it then drinking it to educate ourselves and for the enjoyment.
In the end, we dropped the idea.
With COVID more people have sold bottles on auction sites where prices are right up there with the high street...
I myself have had no luck with wine investments. Tried to sell one of my CGV Le Musigny - but no one wanted to buy the stuff. I've accepted the hedonistic route. Cheers Konstantin.
Great video on an interesting topic! I have some investment wine, although not for very long now (started in 2018 with some 2013-ish vintages and later added some en primeur from Bordeaux).
I have about 13 different wines and some champagne and the returns are at least green now after costs. Some are very green at 20%pa and others barely, at 0.78%pa. It's a hobby and an interest, but not the most profitable investment around...
Great video. I've been buying and selling with BBX for about a decade now with the intention that the profit on very expensive wines can then be used to buy very good wines I can actually afford to drink. You just have to accept the fact that the time horizon can be very long indeed. Given the transaction cost on sale which may run to 10%, plus storage, it can take a long time to be back in the money especially with average vintages or those where the winemakers have spotted just how high demand is likely to be for an exceptional vintage, priced the wine high on EP release and not left much on the table for the initial buyer. Definitely a market for genuine "investors" rather than "traders"
Very rational explanation of wine investment. I have had a wine collection for decades and selling your old wines is quite complex. There several middlemen who will take a chunk of your sale. The one fact you omitted is the tax due on your gain. You don’t want the IRS running after you for the tax on the capital gain. I find trading or bartering with other collectors easier and more satisfying without the tax liability. Well done and clear discussion on wine investment.
I think building the credibility as a trustworthy seller is possibly one of the toughest part of investment. And predicting en primeur wines, bidding on auctions takes some level of luck. I'll just keep it to drink it myself. Keeping a case of wine for like 5 years isn't very feasible for non merchants in my opinion 😅
I have Bordeaux 1986( Chateau Goffreteau) just waiting for the right occasion ,I have it for 10 years but just never had the right occasion to open it yet or either forget .
I agree 100% over your thoughts! It is indeed more complicated to manage, store and handle a wine investment! Moreover, usually it requires a minimum higher investment usually around $5000. However, definitely in a diversified portfolio makes sense!
Great point about cost of sale
This is a great video in so many ways. In my opinion, you need to be selective with what your money is going towards based on your personal budget, so the ROI is at the very least, break even; and the social elements of wine consumption can be continued. However, in relation to an investment account, these are very conservative, long-term investments that require a larger upfront cost in that investment, which an average consumer would not consider being feasible. That being said, selective purchasing could be very profitable, long term and on a budget, so long as the purchases are able to be re-sold in a private transaction, or appropriate market.
Nice Video.
I Mostly going to drink the wine myself after 10 to 15 years.
But I really like to see the Price increase After 10-15 Years .
it’s always fun to talk about the Price when i bought the wine and the Price When trinkt the Wein With my Friends
I am always investing in wine, but accidentally popping all those bottles... ;)
The purpose of my wine collection is to drink it! Keeping wine is much more fun and enjoyable (to me) when you only are concerned about what food to pair it with :)
Or share it with your friends or partner?! :)
Great video but I think you need to add a warning about this. I am a winemaker here in Maryland, USA. Any individual or company that sells alcohol in any form, for any monetary value, is very illegal and requires a liquor sales license by the state they are in. This is a big deal and considered a felony.
I’ve unfortunately had customers of mine sell some of their bottles privately, got caught, and went to jail.
Please incorporate a Warning in your video that resell if alcohol may not be allowed to all your viewers. Great video & Cheers!
first comment !!! awesome video !!
Thanks!
Konstantin, your videos are a great way to continue to build on the passion for wine we all seem to share. I did not start collecting wines to turn a profit, but over time there are certainly wines that I did not want to drink due to their escalating price. Having said that, there are also wines that have dramatically increased in price that I love, and cannot imagine parting with like my Keller GGs, Pierre Peters Chettillons, and most of the Red Burgs I've bought. My cellar has always been intended as a "drinking cellar" rather than an investment cellar. For me the generosity of those that had a cellar while I was learning defined my idea of what wine is about. Sharing & creating unique memories.
Being a wine lover and someone who wants to invest,I would certainly consider this. The cellar/storage aspect sounds challenging.
I bought 4x12 bottles of Bordeaux 2019. Great year and low price due to covid. Best en primeur year since 1990. Some years back i bought a lot of Chateauneuf du pape. It was hot then due to Parker. And excellent prices. Sometimes the top wines i bought got 100 points by Parker and i could sell it at 3 times than what i bought it for. I bought the luxury/ cuvee wines for sale so i could finance the wines i bought for myself. But sadly CNDP has increased insanly since then. At least for most of the best. Like so many others. Especially Burgundy.
Great video! I have personally started investing in wines last year. Like you said, if the ROI after a few years doesn’t seem to be there, at least you have a great bottle to enjoy, rather than some digital number in your shares portfolio. Finding the right channels to sell wine as a small investor is a gap in the market I think. For example an auction house will not have an interest to sell €5k of my wine. What do you think about Catawiki as a buyer and sellers market for small investors like myself?
I have never used it.
Most people its better to just go with a good stock portfolio and just drink you wine. Its never a bad idea to have a few investment bottles in storage as backup when you really need some at some point and if you dont much better you can enjoy some great wine
Great overview on wine investment, something I plan to invest in. Thanks for sharing your contribution.
Ich habe einige Weine als Investment gekauft. 2016 Cos d‘Estournel . Und ein paar Grand Cru‘s aus dem Burgund. Und ein Paar Flaschen Ch. Montrose. Wir werden sehen ob die Weine als Investment taugen, falls nicht werde ich sie mit Freude trinken. Für mich ist es aber in erster Linie ein Hobby.
Thank you again for sharing g your views n opinions! I really would like to starting investing on fine wines n am quite positive with the idea. May I also ask you what you think on investing in vineyards and winary?
Finding highly rated (ideally a highly RP rated) bottles at auction, that haven’t been identified by the auction house as such, can bring about some good returns. It doesn’t happen often, but it does happen.
I try to not invest in things don’t truly understand, so I’m only holding some for personal interest, hoping to enjoy. Also, I seldom have more than 2 to 3 bottles of any one selection, usually only 1 or 2.
I love your way of combining facts, fun facts and humour, it really makes your videos both entertaining and at the same time well worth watching from a learning perspective as well. Keep up the good work!
Thank you!
I was in the trade for many years and as you said, if you couldn’t sell it you can always drink it! I was always surprised that I was rarely left with much that didn’t sell.
I never bought wine for investment as I always felt that that was idiots with to much money and small penises!!
It’s the vintage champagne in my cellar that’s giving the best return. The clarets are good, but bubbles appear to be better
What is a good platform to sell old wines?
For private sellers I am not really sure. There are a few plattforms but they are usually run by a merchant like BBX and you need to store it with them. Usually you have to go through a wine merchant ... you can also sell it on ebay...
Thank you Konstantin for such a great video! I didn't know that - much like Oil - the Wineries restrict production in order to drive up price, yet wine as a commodity is not traded in the same as Oil or even others like Wheat/Grain/ a la the Chicago Mercantile exchange. Or maybe it is and I just don't know :). I originally found your video by searching for how to make money off of wine exporting and this gave me a great start. I will watch more of your videos for sure.
My cellar is not good enough for long therm storage and I‘m too lazy for the reselling process. So I only buy what I drink or what I share with friends. I have about 300 bottles in my cellar.
Lol the shots with the money at the end 😂
😉
Good advice thank you.
If I made money from investing in wine, I would probably spend it on more wine anyway...
I think aging wine for personal consumption makes more sense to me, if I drink an age-worthy wine in 10 years I have saved money compared to buying it at the time of consumption, that's good enough for me. My portfolio should be diversified enough anyway, there are stocks of companies producing good alcoholic beverages, like Moet-Hennessy and I have some share through ETFs. Of course if you happen to buy that one wine that gives you a 100x return, that's great but you would have to be lucky, it's like any kind of stock picking but that won't be the return you can expect on average.
I learned a lot..thank you..novice investor here
Sehr interessantes Video; vielen Dank! Ich habe einiges in die Bordeaux Jahrgänge 2008/9 und 10 investiert u.a. in Palmer, Montrose, Pontet Canet, Clinet, Leoville Barton, beide Pichons, Beausejour Duffau Lagarosse …… Was wäre besser ?! Nun verkaufen oder besser noch liegen lassen?
I agree any type of market you know about can be a way to generate money. Perhaps wine can be a fun diversification if you're savvy about it already, but I'll stick to my low-cost mutual funds for consistent returns :)
Thank you, very informative , I am ( by sheer luck ) on DRC ‘s direct allocation list in the U.K. , so , thankfully no problems with provenance . DRC ‘s prices have rocketed so spectacularly ( particularly , over the last 10 years ) - I cannot even imagine opening any of my bottles of DRC to drink , but I did ( fortuitously ) attend the most spectacular DRC ( horizontal / vertical ) DRC wine tasting on valentine’s day in 2008 , and the majesty of La Tache 1990 … still lingers, haunting my taste buds …..
In my opinion,the quality of drc is no longer worth the money..
Lucky you!
There is one thing I couldn't find deeper info about and I am really curious what a MW can tell me about:
In the EU it is allowed to blend several vintages. And still a winemaker can legally put a certain vintage on the label as long as it consists at least of 85% of one vintage.
How often do winemakers really do vintage blending, especially in regions like Bordeaux? Or is it a no-go to many?
There are no stats on that. I would say that it is quite difficult logistically for smaller producers to blend in older vintages and there is little upside. It does happen however but no one likes to talk about it.
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine danke. Sounds like a job for detective Baum 😉
It is probably one inevitable, but should be counteracted as it is running the market for wine lovers. Wine is meant to be drunk and should be sold at a price that corresponds to its production cost and quality.
My experience: I bought a case of Haut Brion 1989 for about 1000 sfr. Some years later with valuation of parker Points (100) I sold it for 18.000
I've been investing since 2020, here in the UK it's a lot easier and practical: tax-free on profits, VAT free for investing, cheap storage rates with insurance, great offer of trusted merchants with guaranteed provenance and decent liquidity (in the financial sense, not the drinking sense lol) for investment grade labels and it's super accessible for small investors like me. I've been having excellent returns on super tuscans and champagne.
Hi I wonder where do you make the transaction of wine?
Do you suggest to open a case and wrap the bottles or would you rather store the wine in the closed box when you plan on keeping it for 15-25 years as an investment?
Closed box is better for resale
There are two opinions on this topic. Some say a closed case is better. I would argue that it is important to verify that the correct wine is in the case and that it is undamaged when you buy and sell it.
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine thanks!
Thank you for your advice master Konstantin .. I was about to invest.. now I need to think twice, or, like those ppl who buy 2 cases, one for drink, and 2 for sell or drink 😘
Do wine menues at famous restaurants or hotels affect the prestige of wine makers in any significant way?
Yes, being listed at a great restaurant is important to most wineries.
Grifalco! Aglianico! Endlich sagt's mal einer! ;-)
Too much hassle purchasing wine for investment. It is much easier & more enjoyable to consume it. 🍷
To be honest I have bought a few bottles for reselling purposes. So far I have only sold a case of port, which gave me a 15% return in less then 2 years. Which is better then most investments I've made. Currently also trying investments in beer, whisky, rum and other distilled goods as they tend to be easier to enter then the wine investment market.
Hi Konstantin. Sorry to bother you again as I already asked this question to you in the past. I am a West diploma student and as you may know we are trained with the "acceptable,good,very good and outstanding" scale in order to evaluate the wine's quality. But I have been interested in understanding how to use the 100-point scale of Parker and even though I searched for it, I actually could not find a complete explanation on how to use and on how to relate it to the Wset scale. As Im sure you know how to use, could you tell me please how it works?
You can look at the scale and explanations on robertparker.com: www.robertparker.com/resources/vintage-chart
They use the same terms to describe the ratings so this should make it easy for you to compare.
I have a couple of wines that I buy futures in. Originally I did this just to get them at a lower price, with the full intent to drink them. But these are wines that really should have some significant bottle age, and as I get older I’ve converted most of my allotment to large format bottles (3L, for example), because there’s a decent chance I won’t get around to drinking them, and the return on the larger formats is better if/when I sell them. We’re not talking volumes or prices high enough that I’d ever get rich, but I might make a nice little profit at least. And if I’m still healthy enough to enjoy them when they’re ready to drink I can throw some pretty decent parties.
What happens if you try and survive on just wine
I began doing it, so i have some fine bottles in my cellar, but i must wait to sell them.
A vibrant market really doesn’t exist outside of first growth Bordeaux, grand cru level Burgundy, and select global cult wines like Screaming Eagle. Good luck on getting allocations of those.
Not for me. Building up a supply of investment wines would take too long and too much space. Being able to liquidate and provide a steady stream of income would be foolhardy ambition. Best to buy good wines and share them with your friends. The good conversation and friendship is a better return.
What does it mean DRC and CRD
DRC is a premier cru vineyard in Burgundy. Domaine de la Romanée Conti.
I think you provide GREAT information, however, it would be even better if you talked a little bit slower. I find myself having to rewind often while watching your videos to absorb the information you're providing. Thank you fir all your information!!!
On my part I ve choose only 1st grand crus in Bordeaux and in Magnum
Congratulations on the new kids. When you have the time, I would love more videos in the 10 minutes series and how to pronounce German wine words and spell them. I’m a native English speaker who knows squat about German and I don’t want to loose points for not spelling words correctly.
What happens to the value of a fine collectible wine when it has aged past its peak? Seems like, eventually, you either drink it or realize you have a very expensive case of salad dressing.
In some cases it does not matter how good the wine is today like for example the famous Jefferson bottles.
IFL this guy!👍
Konstantin, how do you see the impact of COVID on wine market?
Wine investment is risky. For a private person, the intension should be always to buy wines you would drink, thus do not buy wines which are far above your financial situation. If you can sell a part after 5 or 10 years it is the best situation (and you can use the money to buy more. This is the traditional way to build up a cellar!).
Charlie Chaplin: "A day without laughter is a day wasted."
Me: "A wine that is not drunk is a wine wasted."
I buy a lot of wine en primeur but always for future drinking. If I peg out before my wife, who doesn't drink, she has a windfall. 2020 will be my last year of buying en primeur as I am 66 and unlikely to live long enough to enjoy the wine.
i bought a few bottles but its not produced yet xD
If you have great storage conditions, and you have great knowledge of what you're buying, of course wine is going to be a great vehicle. It doesn't have to be Mouton, Haut-Brion, Petrus, Latour, etc. if you're a new investor in the wine world I would say start with Tignanello and Sassicaia. In the last 2-3 years the market for those 2 super Tuscans have been over the top crazy. I made around 400-500% profits with the 2015 and 2016 vintages alone. Those were exceptional vintages of course, but if you need a little spice in your portfolio, wine is an exciting platform to try. The worst that could happen is the wine you bought for profit ends up being tasted with friends if it doesn't perform as well as you expected it to. Don't forget to put some Japanese Wagyu A5 on some extremely hot cast iron cooking plate while you open a Tignanello, to remember life isn't always about profit$, but also being rich of great friendships.
Sassicaia ex-domain is like 100€ or even less. So of course if you have it direct domain you will make money. Same with Tignanello. Not the same game with the top 10 Bordeaux or even Burgundy. Just saying 🙂
Hi Konstantin, ich würde gerne junge Weine (in Kisten) kaufen und dann lagern, aber nicht zum Verkauf, sondern für den späteren Genuss. Kannst du evtl. mal dazu ein Video machen, also auf was man alles achten muss (Gebiet, Ernte & Witterung usw.) und wo man solchen Weine quasi im Presale herbekommt. Also nicht in 800.000 Dollar Fässer 😂 Danke für die tollen Videos!
Totaly true , I would add when you collect top of the line , you don t need a gigantic cave ( May be except the biggest collection) then you have less risq to broke one when manipulating
I would love to invest in wine but really have no idea where to start.
Bordeaux red, buy only Grand Crus in subscription. Register for a business to save VAT and keep costs of storage to taxes.
At moment German Riesling GG and Italian Barolo are still cheap. Bordeaux is good value now after a decade long price stagnation. Avoid Burgundy and California. As market broadens, Chile and Argentina could be also interesting.
@@hs89075 So an individual would pay more in taxes vs a business?
@@EricZeak Talking about Germany: if you haven't registered for business, you can't get back VAT you pay with purchase. If it's your business you can get back the VAT from tax authorities and save this money for more investment (here 19 percent) -> but if you sell you must include VAT in invoice and give that amount to tax authorities. It's called "item/money in transit", because this amount is not yours and has to be paid by your customer or auction house to you. If your future customer is a professional, too, he can get back the VAT paid to you.
@@EricZeak Can only speak for Germany: definitely yes. Professional buyer for investment reasons: 0% VAT. Consumer prize: 19 % VAT. Big difference.
since RP retired in 2015, how come the reviews still list " RP " for recent vintages ?
Whisky single malt is better.😉😊
Do you think there will be another influential figure in wine like Robert Parker? Will it be a reviewer or something else? (RUclipsr maybe?) it’s interesting to think about how it would even happen and how the industry would accommodate it. what says you? -Chris
Hehe I invest in other securities to drink wine.. I know I’ll drink my investments if they’re wine…
You know what to find
How do you make a small fortune in wine? Start with a large fortune.
I have a bottle of 1990 Petrus Pomerol. I've moved it into a controlled environment. Your thoughts on the maturity of the vintage, and from ROI aspect when in your opinion would it be good to sell it?
1990 is a really good vintage in Bordeaux. A Petrus 1990 value on the market (public market) is around $5,000. But if you want to sell it to a broker, he will more likely try to buy it for $3,500 to $4,000 top, but that bis for a perfect bottle. So your ROI depend at how much did you pay. But the broker will examine the bottle very closely to see how the bottle condition is. If there is a little scratch or anything else on the label then you loose already 20% of the value. Same if the cork looks bad, or the level of the wine is low, and the broker will want to know your storage conditions from the beginning, etc.... so many factors will define the final price. But at the end of the day, selling just one bottle is not necessarily profitable for a merchant. A case as a better value. If you have only one bottle, open it and drink it. You will have one opportunity to drink it, and I hope you have an educated palate to be able to appreciate the level of this wine and this vintage. 😊
Very interesting - thanks 🙏. Is there a similar thing as “growth shares” in wine? I.e winemakers who today might not be on anybodys radar but who (presumeably) will be highly sought after in the future? Obviously more risky investments but also more thrilling maybe (although unfolding in slow motion 😂). Shouldn’t someone with your talents be able to give a qualified guess about which wines today may be the next 1982 Lafite Rothschild? Or doesn’t wine investment work this way? Like the big will always be the biggest?
too bad yr website is not in english or at least has an uk version .. best regards/rien
Coming up!
@@KonstantinBaumMasterofWine on a personal note... where would you advise to sell yr wines
ive been collecting clarets since 1985 when my father lived in the bordeaux area and i bought most of the 1e gcs as premier tranche via the usual sources never realising the far east would bump up the prices to where they are now.. im an amateur not really nessecary to sell but too many to drink them all in the next 10 years..gruess/rien
So wine is like Crypto currency.
As they say “the only way to make a small fortune in the wine business is to start with large fortune”
I am not sure why my comment didn't got published :S anyway I've invested some money either in a specific vineyard or in a collection of luxury brands - under the Wines&Joy umbrella.
A trend which I am curious to explore is the wine world together with NFTs, I see some wineries moving in that direction, as well, as entire digital wineries (which I am still wondering why). I also have a chat with a small producer here in Germany, who is keen to explore the NFT's world and wine... Any thoughts on that?
Treibt leider die Preise für gute Tropfen ins unermessliche und schließt einen Großteil von passionierten Weintrinkern von den großen Weinen aus. So ist da jedoch in jedem Markt und deshalb muss man wohl damit leben.
Kommt darauf an, ab welchem Grad man beginnt von einem guten Tropfen zu sprechen? Ich trinke gerne in der Preisklasse von 10 bis 40 Euro und würde sagen, da gibt es keine Knappheit an erlesenen Tropfen. Können Sie ein Beispiel geben wo Sie persönlich bei Weinen, die Sie regelmäßig trinken, solche inakzeptablen Steigerungen erfahren?
"If you dont have a cellar, you need to pay for storage..."
Not true in the USA. 90% of our houses have air condition and stay at a constant 65-72*F.
Almost any American can store wine in an interior closet indefinitely.
Wrong, even if most of the US houses have A/C, it doesn't mean you can store wines properly. A winery cellar temperature is 12°C (53°F) constant. So you need a constant 53°F to store your wines properly, without vibrations, light and having a constant humidity level. 60% is generally the common level admitted by everyone in the business, including producers. More you have temperature fluctuation, more your wines will aged quickly. Just a fact. At 65-72°F, the wine will aged like 50% more rapidly than at 53°F. So you need a proper storage if you want to invest in wines. Period.
REAL%👌
Wine and spirits are the only areas where you can drink an investment if it doesn't go well.
I sometimes, with luck, try "the 2 cases of wine strategy". I usually consider reviews and recent price development history, such that I know that I get a reasonable chance to pay it off. However if the strategy fails I am technically ready to consume all of it myself. It real issue is that the strategy consumes a lot of space, and my wine cooler only takes up to some 110 bottles, and on my cellar-shelf's I only allocate for some 40 surplus bottles (cheaper wines for food and wines that I will soon drink). So high quality (temperature and humidity controlled) storage really is the limiting factor in perusing this kind of strategy. So for most people it really can't pay off, as they have to use an external storage facility, designed to hold wines over a certain price range. Still it is fun to drink "technically free" wine, so for the majority of people it is really the fun of the "game", rather than an actually investment.
This worked for me back in the mid 80's when I bought some very good 1982 Bordeaux as futures. I paid less than $60 for Mouton and Haut- Brion and sold then at auction for $1,200 & $850 as well as other 82 Bordeaux. I also sold some 1989 ch Beaucastel as well some California wines. I used the money to buy 2009 & 2010 futures but the prices were high then due to interest from China. They are worth more now but not mush more.
There's no such thing as "investment wines" here in South America 😅 All the better for my wallet, I think.
can i pay u to hype a wine?
No way...
My only issue is that I’d drink my investment
Hat!
Only drink cheap wine. Make money on rear bottles if you Are good to game.
I Must be an angel
whole thing seems like an over bloated meme that became scam and everyone decided to go with it… thankfully it is changing though, natural wine wave, vivino and other democratic wine things are a counter point to this Parker 100 point wine nonsense
Innit.
Perhaps I’m just jealous of people with loads of money, but the idea of stashing wine away rather than drinking it is so sad for me.
By all means, Cellar your wine correctly, but buying with the sole purpose of investment return just seems contrary to the romance with which the wine was made.
@@adamg.manning6088 yeah, I have no problem aging wines but like every other industry, when alot of money gets involved, it is over.