yeah, everyone talks about the starter, what about the battery? On a serious note though, very good video, very well done and explained and shown in a way everyone can understand. Excellent work
I’m an engineering student, and this is exactly how we approach lab experiments-controlling variables, ensuring an adequate sample size, minimizing external influences, and maintaining consistency in procedures. Since you’ve used all these methods, your results should be spot on! I loved this video, man. You have no idea how happy it makes me to see someone actually putting in the work to prove something with solid science, instead of just saying 'trust me, bro,' with their only source being their own imagination.
I appreciate the support brother. I was in your shoes 20 years ago. Funny thing is how many people tell me my results aren’t valid because of this, that, and the other. And those people generally have no education or training in engineering, physics, chemistry, Thermo, metallurgy, etc… but they can always find the flaw in the procedure. The rest are disgruntled scientists or engineers that are butt hurt because some guy on the internet showed or explained something better than they could. No matter how good you do it, there will always be masses of people on social media that would have done it better or done it correctly with their infinite budget and access to NASA’s labs. 😂.
@@freedomworxHaha, lmao, right. I don’t think a lot of people realize how much work goes into producing a video like this. It’s not just the editing, filming, and time-it’s also about setting up a solid experiment. You need clear steps that can be easily repeated, and it has to give a clear answer to the hypothesis while following all the rules of proper experimentation, like only having one independent variable. Seriously, great job, man. There are people out there who see the effort you put in and really appreciate it. You’re genuinely making the world a better place by showing others how to objectively find the truth. Keep it up!
@Colin_MacNeil I appreciate the kind words. And you are right. I’ve had this one on the docket for over a year. No telling how many times I thought about this while driving down the road, just to make sure what I was doing would provide a solid result. 👍
Yep. This is a terrific video. The scientific method is the power step of human history. They teach the Age of Enlightenment as guys thinking and writing. Nope, it's engineering and scientific experimentation. Do more of what works, less of what doesn't and... the king, pope, minister, your mother in law are no longer unquestionable authorities. I have a Yanmar diesel engine in my boat. I changed the oil and tried to fill up the filter 'just like everybody says to...' The oil filter is a side mount. More of a mess than anything else. The one thing the real manuals (and not just some people on RUclips doing something for the first time) is warm up the engine on idle for 5 minutes before doing anything. This is that wear period. If I had to guess I would say that an engine not at operating temperature has tolerances that are not to spec so take it easy. But these must not be too significant otherwise there would be heaters on engine blocks. (And engines in cold countries should probably wear more quickly than those in warm countries....) The vast majority of people in the world are really good, friendly, helpful... but most insist on doing anything but thinking and learning. Me? I was very fortunate to have wonderful parents who punished me for just about everything (I was also really annoying). So that one day when I (finally) fixed my sister's bicycle, I still got snapped at and smacked. But this changed everything. If it works than I'm not wrong. After that I was unstoppable. Somewhere along the line I fine tuned this. 1. Positive feedback loops are incredibly powerful. Do more of what works, less of what doesn't. Learn how to objectively tell the difference. 2. Make a lot of mistakes and learn from them. (but 2.B. It still rankles me when someone tells me I'm wrong. It shouldn't, they're either helping me, or if they are wrong - so what? I usually don't argue, but that pinch of ego? A waste of my time.) 3. Always go back to basics. 4. Deliberate practice. Break it down, step by step. 5. Have fun, make money, do amazing things,
@@freedomworx welp.... Yep, there's a hell of a lot of work that went into making this video..... The editing and the filming makes it easy for the viewer to take in but the freaking headache that probably came with just obtaining the lab results, which means all the testing that took place just to get those two sheets of paper, I sure as hell wouldn't have the patience to do it LoL ... My titties are tickled just to see somebody go through it all with actual results... Great work 👍
I always love how I’m not supposed to pre-fill an oil filter because it might get contaminated, but I’ve also got to jam the filter up through a bunch of dirty wiring and hoses to install it. It’s like the engineers never thought a dump truck would get dirty. And, quite a few of the diesels I service don’t have an electric lift pump or a manual priming pump. If we didn’t pre-fill the fuel filters many won’t prime themselves after changing filters. Some won’t even prime with the priming pump if you don’t pre-fill the water separator.
some engineers did good and made it super convenient at the top, no more dirt in the filter except you're a pre-filler and dump all the oil out while trying to install the filter.
Totally agree brother. Ended my mechanical career as a school bus mechanic and my district bought a lot of Cummins powered busses. Cummins puts the oil filter in an easily accessible area R/F of the engine. Then the chassis/body builders procede to route wiring harness and heater coolant lines all around the oil filter making it nearly impossible to remove/install. Oblivious to the fact that particular part needs changed regularly!
@@kypparmstrong2775 I found installing a prefilled filter there difficult (ISX15) and even had one jump threads when tightening. I might of cross threaded it, but had jumped a thread on one side after the pop. What a fix. Have fun
100%, go ahead and don't pre fill the fuel filters in an M113 armored personnel carrier and watch what happens, you'll NEVER get it started, same thing with those diesel powered welding rigs I worked with as an ironworker, you couldn't go a week without someone forgetting to fuel one up in the morning and before lunch it'd run out of fuel, you could top off the fuel tank and without priming the filters you'll never get it to start.
Thank you for this incredible science-based video. You clearly spent a lot of time assembling this, and did a great job of packaging the information while being respectful of alternate realities. As an engineer, I tip my hat to you!
I’ve got one for and one against. In my 20 years in the Air Force, on multi-million dollar aircraft our tech data always has us pre fill oil and hydraulic filters. The point against is I have owned a dozen vehicles with inverted and horizontal filters, both of which make it impossible to pre-fill. So at the end of the day I suppose I’m in the “it doesn’t matter” camp unless otherwise explicitly stated in the technical documentation. On a side note, I admire your dedication to the debate. Rock on!
Does that blower have an intercooler underneath? That's the same setup that I plan on using in my Vega wagon and I'm planning on using E85 but I'm wondering if I'm still going to need an intercooler.
Mercedes M274 doesn't have this issue, because valve seats burn out just before the bearings wear out, so the owner can rebuild the whole engine at once. So convenient. 😂
VAG had to change the specs of the oil for their 1.9TDI PD engines from 97-00. Without the proper oil, the cams, lifters and injectors were getting damaged. Something about needing to maintain an oil film on them for restarts ?
Been wrenching on engines since 1948 - yeah, I'm that old. No pre-fill - the engine rattles until the oil pressure comes up Pre-fill - the engine does not rattle A rattling engine is not a happy engine That's enough science for me
I have an aftermarket ecu, i just disable injectors and prime the engine to build a bit of pressure first, then start it, avoid the rattling and potential wear from it. That way it starts with pressure built up already.
I own a 4.6L 2V Ford. It rattles every single time it pumps up because it drains down every time it stops. My self-assuredness does not prevent physical mechanical wear of inanimate objects, regardless of how old I am or important I believe that makes me.
First off this is a great video. I still think warming the engine up at idle temperature is best because you left out one major variable. So we know you want to avoid your engine torque peak because that creates more cylinder wall pressure. With that in consideration, let’s say your engine takes three minutes to get to operating temperature idling at 1000 RPMs, and it takes one minute for your engine to reach operating temperature at 6000 RPMs. You are going to get to operating temperature faster at 6000 RPMs, but you will use 6000 revolutions. While idling your vehicle at 1000 RPMs for three minutes will use 3000 revolutions. I think the low torque low rpm would be the best bet after watching your video because it’s less revolutions to get to operating temperature at low torque.
I appreciate the support. But you kinda went to the extreme with the 6,000 RPM statement. I live in the diesel world most of the time. And many diesels will never reach operating temp by idling. You need RPM and load to ever get to operating temp. Gas engines will typically get there without any load. But you are making the assumption that the cold engine wear is related to engine speed. But the reality is, it's primary from corrosion, not physical wear. Combustion byproducts react with the cold cylinder walls, and condense, forming acids that corrode the cylinder wall and rings. It'll do that regardless of the RPM. Probably 😉
I'm a classically trained session violinist. I don't even know how I got here, but bacon, science and thick oily fingers stroking small oily tubes makes for a compelling video.
Exactly the same here, just had to do some math for understanding. Turns out i am a lazy european, no filling of the oil filter, and only once in 50000 kilometers, that's about 31000 miles. After 300000 kilometers, my little ford still runs great.
One of the best vids I've seen on the subject, thank you for doing it. I'm a commercial fisherman that has just over 34K hours on on my vessel's main engine, over 42K on the 21KW genset since its last overhaul, as well as with 5500 hours on my 2006 Ford F250 diesel. The boats' genset runs constantly for days and weeks on end, sometimes up to 4 weeks straight without a prolonged shutdown (only shut down to change oil and fuel filters). Since my main and genset share the same cooling system, due to the heat in the engine room and the coolant flow the main engine is kept near operating temp even when it's not running. When I fire it up after 8 hours of down time, the temp is at 170 degrees within seconds. My poor Ford, however, gets started and stopped several times a day when I'm in town. In my small island town (13 miles of road), it rarely gets a chance to warm up properly. I do 300 hour oil change intervals on both my main and genset by default (prefill both engines' spin-on filters), and 5k intervals on my Ford (cartridge filter, so no pre-fill). I buy my oil by the barrel and use the same oil in everything - whatever CI-4 or better 15W40 my oil vendor has in stock. Last few barrels have been Phillips 66 Guardol, but I'll use whatever they have as their 15W40 commodity oil. My oil analysis results appear to show exactly what your conclusion shows - both of my boat engines' hourly wear rates are miniscule compared to the Ford's wear (I bought that truck new in 2006, and currently have 175K on it - a non-tuned 6.0 with good maintenance history and none of the stereotypical 6.0 issues). I had always assumed it was in part due to prefilling my vessel's spin-on filters, where that isn't an option for the Ford. As an observation, I'll add the following - the vessel's main was installed brand new in 2014 when I bought the boat, and I overhauled the genset engine the same year when it had 50K hours on it as it was buring oil. It has always been on basically the same run schedule for decades before I bought the boat. No joke, it looked like the genset bearings could have been reused. The crank spec'd within tolerances and had no scoring at all. I didn't really look at the cylinder wear at the time, unfortunately. I put a set of standard rod and mains back in it, new pistons, rings and sleeves, refurbished injectors and injector pump units, and besides a water pump and front main seal issue (my fault on install), it's been running flawlessly since then. Didn't mean to write a book here, but this is a long way to come around and say this video was very, very enlightening. I had always suspected the lack of prefill ability on my F250's engine was a root cause of the additional wear, but you've convinced me that it's just my abusive driving habits. With the boat engines basically being at operating temp for a third of the year and rarely run between seasons, I expect to easily get 50k out of each no problem. Excellent work, thanks again. Subscribed.
Your VW likely has aluminum bimetal bearings unless they've been replaced, so lead isnt really a wear metal. They're likely lead free. That 5.9 has leaded bearings, tho. Oh, and I called the trend. But, I can't tell you how I knew the outcome (with confidence). 😊 Almost like I know where this was professionally done before... Also, the wear. My bet would be on ring dynamics and dimensional changes across temp ranges assumin constant speed, load, and combustion. Those radiotracer measurements on one of the treated aluminum parent bore engines would be cool.
@@stuglenn1112yeah what does he know building winning nascar cup engines and being around it his entire lifetime and learning from his father also a nascar legend. But hell experience and wisdom means nothing I don’t know why anyone even makes or watches videos about any of these topics cause we all can just build engines first try that make 800+HP n/a and run wide open for 500 miles straight😂
@@Thumper68 To be fair theoilguy worked in that industry with very sciency equipment for years but he doesnt know more than the dude that idled his motor for ten minutes in between tests points. No double blinds, no (real) control. No hate btw he put together some really good information and made a valiant effort.
As an engineman in the Navy working on locomotive engines (used for main propulsion and generators) the engines have lube oil pumps and heaters AND coolant heaters/pumps running consistently when not in use. They keep the engine up near that 160°F temp and flowing through the system to prevent wear as stated in the SAE papers. Samples are also taken while running. The oil is also sent through Lube oil purifiers and are hardly ever changed. We just add "make up oil" for what is lost through through the purification process. The coolant system also does not have "antifreeze". It is just a corrosion inhibitor such as NALCOOL since the temp is never allowed to get close to freezing. Keeping the oil up at temp also helps prevent condensation in the oil system which we all know is bad.
That’s a great data point, but most folks on here are looking at filters for automobile engines that done have pre lube pumps or keep warm circuits. So it may be a bit different…
To avoid conflict when doing an oil change i've taken some steps to do it properly: 1) Clean room for oil dispensers 2) All oil sent to refill the filter is run thru a filter before passing thru a sanitizer and molecular analysis system. 3) If the program detects no contaminants above 3 microns, the process is completed until the filter is 98.5% filled since our scientists determined this was the amount for best results. 4) Our robots bring a mobile containment system protecting the prefilled filter from the dirty air we breathe and other contaminants into the service bay. 5) After a thorough prep of the area around, under and inside the filter mounting area a sealed robotic arm brings the filter thru a previously sanitized tube, where our filter installation tooling spins it into place to exacting factory specifications. Of course the filters seal was prefabricated. 6) In clear flood mode the engine is cranked until oil pressure rises to specification. The engine is safe to start at this point. 7) Once the system is removed and stowed in the clean room the vehicle is inspected for leaks and oil level, a sticker added to the windshield with the next recommended interval at half what the manufacturer recommends. Oil reminder is reset during the final phase of the process. 8) All floor, seat, wheel, armrest and fender protection is removed. 9) The vehicle is delivered to the Happy customer. 10) We are aware The internet will still find a fault in the process.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PROTECT AGAINST WEAR ON THE PRE SANITIZED COMPONENTS! YOU HAVE FAILED TO TAKE IN MICRO PLASTICS AND MICRON SIZED DUST PARTICLES REMAINING ON THE ASSEMBLY DUE TO FRICTION! THIS ENTIRE PROCEDURE MUST BE DONE IN A VACCUM! WITH NEAGTIVE PRESSURE VENTED TO HEPA FILTEATED AND UV SANITIZED AIR FILTERS! (The Internet will still find fault in this process)
Anyone who lives up north and freaks out about "contaminated" oil, from the oil pan, getting into the output side of their filter, obviously has no idea how often their oil filter bypasses in cold weather.
@@alansand7116 It would be interesting to see but it also depends on the winter rating of the oil. So they'd have to test with multiple different oils like 0W, 5W etc.
Very true. And, the higher the rpm, the greater the likely hood the filter is on bypass. Good reason to run synthetic and low winter startup viscosity. Warmup before driving can be good in this scenario though depending on various factors.
I have literally cringed cranking over my car a couple of times. I know it was likely not much additional damage than any other start but -35C is damn cold. You're like 'please start'
Bypass valve spec of my cars OEM oil filter is 24 psi. Fram is 10-15 psi. Needless to say a lot of oil bypasses the filter regardless. Moderate acceleration and I see 40 psi on the gauge.
My grandfather was an incredible mechanic whose brother designed engines with Kohler as their chief engineer. He basically said all the same things you did. I particularly remember him shaking his head at truck drivers who would warm up their vehicles - he always said, just get in and drive to get the temps up as fast as possible (but not driving it hard). I’m glad to hear someone substantiating what he had told us.
You are required to warm up TURBO Diesel Engines Cummings Turbo Diesel - you need to warm up the Turbo I'll take the Engineers who designed the Cummings Turbo Diesel word over your father's
I had a Chevy 350 engine I rebuilt in 1993. I put 367k miles on that engine over around 17 years. It ran perfectly fine, I simply pulled it out for mileage. On the post mortem teardown, I discovered the main bearings and rod bearings were all worn down into the copper. Engine ran fine and had decent oil pressure, 25 psi at idle after driving in the Phoenix, AZ summer heat. I prefilled half the time and didn't prefill the other half.
That's a great engine story, I got a long one too but not nearly as good, but that some will find interesting anyway. I had a 1988 Nissan Z24 4 cyl. Back around year 2,000 when this truck had about 180,000 it finally needed a valve job so I decided to do an in-car overhaul on this engine while I had teh cylinder head off anyway. I maintained this truck pretty well, and I did oil changes every 3,000 miles. And the most interesting part to me was, I saw for myself how little internal wear happens when you change your oil so often. Timing chain and gears were like new, only the plastic chain tensioner part was worn out. The engine had no tell-tale cylinder wear ridges, as you often see in poorly maintained engines; I had even bought a cylinder-ridge-reamer tool beforehand but found I had no need for it. Removing the oil pan showed the oil pump pickup and oil pan were clean as new. And overall there was no trace of sludge or varnish anywhere inside the engine. None of the piston rings were sticking, all the rings were still free to move, and the baked-on deposits you often find in the ring grooves were barely there. I never touched the main bearings since there was no need to. And since the connecting rod bearings looked fine too, I didn't do anything except coat them in assembly lube and reinstalled them in their original locations untouched (naturally I had marked which bearings came from which cylinder beforehand). The only thing I did was hone the cylinders with the tool, and change the rings for new ones before pre-lubing everything and putting it all back together. I drove the truck for another 4 years. But finally I had to take it in for the dumb biennial Calif smog check. And despite the engine still running perfectly, it wouldn't idle low enough, instead of the 800 rpm specified that the smog machine needed to see it would only idle at 1,000. So the remorseless car-killing smog-check machine declined to pass it, no matter what adjustments, cleaning, etc. I tried on it. But the keep-it--or-dump-it decision was now forced: either junk the Nissan, or spend 4 figures in repairs on a 15 year old truck with 200,000 miles. My bank account won, since by then I already had a second car (2002 Camry V6) that I was making payments on. I guess the point of the story is that even if you pamper, baby, and over-maintain your engine, the rest of the car keeps wearing out too! And a "Last straw"-type issue that finally forces an owner to get rid of a car, will seldom be caused by internal engine wear anyway.
We once had a “52 Dodge two wheel drive pickup with a flathead engine. The oil pressure was falling in the “60s and I asked dad why we didn’t pull it for a rebuild. “Too many jobs to do” ( farm tiling which is very seasonal.) What I did not know is that he had a hankering for a new 4WD and with a busted pickup there would be less opposition from mom. Anyway I watched the oil pressure go from 30 psi to 20, then 10, then 5. Finally the needle did not move. It ran for another two weeks and then stopped for the last time and became a brick. There: bearing failure, it happens, but we were too busy pulling the tile cart in the muddy fields with our Grand Sierra GMC fresh from the dealer: 350 Automatic, high and low gear, 4 wheel drive, 411 gears, radio, new and nice. Mom did not like because it was too high to step into. Maybe that was also part of the plan too. So bearing failure can happen, if you plan correctly.
This ‘52 was old enough that a steering link popped off and we drove into the ditch. We snapped it back on the ball and with a couple of wraps of bailing wire we were off again. Since the odometer had failed several years previous we could only guess at the total miles. It’s important to remember that cars in this period could require a valve job at 40,000 miles especially on dusty country roads when oil filters were aftermarket accessories.
@@cadewey6181 I do remember but mine had a bypass oil filter. Like I said modern oils made all the difference. I got 260 thousand and some change out of mine before it pulled a wrist pin bushing. What I mean by modern oils is I run Rotella in everything I have and I got my drivers license in 2011 Edit punctuation
I saw The Oil Geek's video on prefilling oil filters and it showed how long an engine can go without oil pressure and I was convinced it is the thing to do! So ever since I bought my new car I've prefilled the filter. But in all honesty before seeing that video I never prefilled an oil filter and I've been changing my own oil for 30+ years! I've ran two vehicles above 200,000 miles and another to 150,000 miles. I had only one oil burner and never had an oil related breakdown. The only oil burner was my first used car and it was burning before I owned it. I will probably continue prefilling but in lieu of this video I'll be extra careful about getting packaging foil into the new filter or introducing any other contaminants from the rim of the oil bottle. Point well made on that! 😉
Machinist here. When the block is cold the cylinder bores are ~.005-.010" smaller than when at operating temp(bore diameter dependent). So, while the engine is warming up the fit between the piston and rings to the cylinder wall is much tighter, and therefore will wear more during each stroke. I've always been told to drive gently until at operating temp, I guess I'll keep doing that.
This is the crux of it. Comes down to the difference in coefficient of expansion of aluminum vs steel. The piston will heat up and expand in diameter before the cylinder catches up. In tech school it was taught the need to warm up the engine partially prior to applying load or high cylinder pressure.
It depends on whether the block is made of gray cast iron or aluminum. With aluminum pistons in an aluminum block, a change in temperature will have no effect on the running clearance in the cylinder bore.
This was one of the most informative videos regarding engine wear I have seen on YT. Most videos only focus on oil viscosity and definitely don't show the science. Subscribed.
I am a fan of BOTH Lake Speed, Jr and FreedomWorx. Both have something to contribute to the very esoteric world of engines, lubricants, and wear. The SAE data regarding piston ring wear is pretty compelling, and I think the evidence to support that wear is inversely related to coolant temperature below operating level is solid. Merging FreedomWerx's conclusions with Lake's looks like this: 1. Start, immediately drive gently until operating temperature, and then run normally. 2, To avoid contamination and ensure the optimum oil/metal interface, use the right oil and change it regularly 3. Use the appropriate oil WITHOUT aftermarket additives that disturb the additive package. Great work on this video!! As we used to say in Naval Aviation, BRAVO ZULU!
Great video. I appreciate you calling people out for claiming that no oil pressure causes bearing wear. Oil pressure isn’t what protects journal bearings, it’s hydrodynamic film. Oil pressure simply supplies new oil to the bearing. I’m sure there’s a point at which no oil pressure does allow wear but it’s far greater than 4 seconds. One factor that this video doesn’t consider however is how low tension piston rings (which are in almost all modern gas engines now) would change the results found in the cited case studies. That being said, you mentioned that the reason for engine end of life is cylinder wall and piston ring wear. This assumes the engine was well-maintained and at that point we’re talking service of over 500,000 miles assuming the engine wasn’t driven 2 miles per heat cycle. A bigger issue (and arguably out of scope for what you were doing here) is oxidation. Carbon, coking, sludge deposits and causing piston rings to stick are a far more common occurrence causing engines to burn oil. Oxidation stability is critical. All this being said, I’m now wondering if something like AMSOIL’s upper cylinder lubricant would be of any tangible benefit to alleviating piston ring and cylinder wall wear during warm up, but that’s another discussion for another day.
Motor oil geek always talks about science in his videos, but never actually does any science and when he does theres usually no control or serious flaws in how he does it. This is probably the only video I've seen where somebody has done any real science on the issue.
A few of his videos I liked, but the way he goes over his data sometimes seems hard to follow accurately to me. He also has a unique way of trying really hard to make oil testing seem exciting, yet making it as boring as possible 😂
He does provide some good insights and data. But he also doesn’t always live up to his motto of “Science not Speculation.” Everyone makes mistakes though. And I don’t think he is trying to deceive anyone, I think he was just blinded by bias on this topic.
What about all the filters that mount on their sides ……. GM, Dodge, Nissan or even upside down ….John Deere tractor? All filling arguments are dead which ever way you go!!
@@freedomworxI’ve understood the excessive wear from cold rings and cylinder. I own a brand new F350 with the 7.3 Godzilla and from break in to current I add Amsoil upper cylinder lubricant every tank. I add it for the express purpose of reducing wear on the rings at startup and during warm up. I’d like your thoughts and engineering mind to let me know if I’m up a tree and punching at the air. I feel good about it but you know….science and bacon.
Nice to see someone having a bit of fun, I was in the, it doesn't matter camp, but enjoyed your presentation. I am also in the it doesn't matter what brand of filter or oil you choose as long as it's the proper oil for your application camp, many years ago I read an article about taxis and the trend was the same there, many hundreds of thousand miles on those vehicles without issues, the common theme they were always at operating temperature as well.
Technically a square manhole cover would work just fine and not fall in, as long as it is ~44% larger than the diagonal of the opening. For an 18in square opening the cover would need to be about 26in and it wouldn't be able to fall in. For an 18in round opening, you would need say a 20in manhole cover. That works out to be about 50% less area. So the real answer is that you need half the material to make a round opening of a similar sized square opening.
@@wojtek-33you can make a sguare hole smaller and a round hole smaller just taper the opening inwards from top to bottom just like a set of well rings lid is done
That and...If you put a load in the middle of a square manhole cover the stress is going to be that of a round cover with the load on the middle of each of the sides. Imagine the sides being loaded and the corners of the cover lifting up. So the square cover will have extra unnecessary material at the corners.
Important point here is that from the moment my engine is stopped to drain the oil, to the moment I start it back up to after an oil and filter change at most 30 minutes passes (because I need to get the car off the ramps to put them away). There will still be an oil film on all surfaces when I crank it over.
You could do that a week later and there'd still be plenty wet with oil to lube for the 15-20 revolutions at basically no load before pumped pressure takes over.
Exactly. Imagine how quickly a quick lube place changes your oil after shutting down the engine. It's only a few minutes. Prefilling an oil filter has ZERO benefit in those situations.
@@benjurqunov 15 to 20 revolutions ? 2000 rpm, 4 seconds to fill, 2000 divided by 60 equals 33 revolutions per second, times 4, is 133 revolutions, not 15 to 20. ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE mr short shrift
Yes but the first cylinder compression cycle is going to squeegee the oil off the cylinders from the piston rings. So there might be a few seconds where the only liquid in the cylinder is just gasoline and thus mostly metal-to-metal contact.
Hot Damn!!! There are still people out there that have a brain. I like your style just as much as your sense of humor, and I forking love that. I started my mechanical career in 1959 at 9 years old, trying to keep a $209.95- , Sears and Roebucks 2 seater go-kart running. Been well lubricated with motor oil ever since (beer started at 13). Joined the USN in 1968 and became an engineman on Diesel submarines but while in A school we went on a field trip up to Milwaukie, Wis. to a railroad engine overhaul shop. They were overhauling an EMD 567 in a yard donkey that had been running virtually continuously for 5 years since new. It had 2 separate oil supply sumps so wasn't shut off for oil changes. Over 40,000 hrs and the bearings were all in spec., and you could still see the crosshatching in the cylinder walls. They rough honed the cylinder walls and threw in a new set of piston rings, thinking maybe another 25,000 or so hrs. I was always told that starting and stopping was what caused the most wear on a reciprocating engine. I also agree that temperature can be a killer...living in Alaska like I do🥶. I been told that Lady farts weigh less than Man farts....think there's any truth to that?🤣
@@freedomworx Great video, how much does block heaters help. My cummins is at 100 degrees each morning thanks to my block heater. I have it connected to a kasa smart plug that turns on 2 hours before I leave in the morning.
@@freedomworxyou say it’s best to run it seconds after you start it to get the heat up quicker but wouldn’t running it at higher rpm load cold be worse than letting it warm up at low rpm?
Finally a good scientific explanation of what I’ve been telling people for years. Start the engine, wait a few seconds, drive gently until operating temp at least. Don’t start and let it idle for 10-20 minutes every morning. Also, my Honda has a horizontal filter so I can’t prefill it. 5K mile OCI’s for over 300k miles with Mobil1 0w-30. Engine is all original and has nearly 400k miles on it now, and the UOA reports are still coming back good, so I think I’m doing okay with it. I have 4 cars currently, 2 with horizontal filters and 2 with vertical filters. Never prefill any of them.
My Merc has the vertical cartridge filters. The filter is up at the top of the engine. No pre-filling those. I've owned a few of them since my first 2004 model and never had any problems. They use 0W-40.
I had a friend that owned a 95 Prelude since it was new. He drove that car until last year when he passed away. Had half a million miles on it with just regular oil changes with synthetic and basic maintenance. Nothing special. Honda really knew how to make a great long lasting engine. also Ricardo, known for building some of the most successful race engines in the world and the Mclaren M838/840 series (derived from the Nissan VR8), also uses a vertically mounted oil filter at the top of the engine. Granted this is a dry sump system but if oil starvation was a real issue I would assume they would have mounted the oil filter so that it wouldn't drain whenever the engine wasn't running, particularly since they equipped these cars with stop/start for fuel economy......which I always disable because stop/start sucks
I have always filled mostly because it reminds me to lube the gasket, but also because I figure it can't hurt. You have a far greater chance of introducing contaminants when filling the block than by filling the filter. My wrenching days are pretty much over, but subbed anyway because of your humor/thoroughness/editing. Just an all-a-round great vid. Happy New Year!
Came for the science, stayed for the bacon. 30 seconds in and I smashed the subscribe button. When it came to race engines that I’ve had the pleasure to touch over the years (IMSA, HSR, Grand Am, historic F1, SCCA) cranking the engine for oil pressure before firing was always what we were taught. On some of the engines we would have to pre warm oil and coolant before even firing the engine. To each their own. But the number one killer of engines was driver error. Money shifts or missed gears sending the revs past recommended red line was always the fastest way to make internal engine components part of the space program.
Thanks for watching. I think a few things to keep in mind with race engines. They generally run much more viscous oils, sometimes mono-grade (SAE50, SAE60, etc…) so they don’t flow well until very warm. They also have much higher valvetrain pressures. Both of those lend themselves to pre-oiling or priming before firing. And pre-heating is sometimes required to achieve adequate oil clearance on bearing journals. Aluminum blocks grow a lot more than iron blocks, so you have to make the oil clearances very tight at ambient temps, to ensure they are not too loose at operating temp. Sometimes too tight to rotate the engine without pre-heating it first. 👍
@ you know your stuff. Before they started removing shop classes in my state in the 90s, people like you that teach with examples are the reason that kids loved to take these classes.
I've always just filled the engine until the dipstick says full, go start the car let it run for 3-4 seconds, shut it off and go check the dipstick to make sure the level dropped, then top it off and then secure the oil cap and check for leaks. Never had a problem in 20 years.
every time you explain something that brings questions to mind, you immideately follow up with answers to those questions and by theend of the video i have no questions left. never had this experience with any other youtuber. well done.
Loved the detail on this. Funny this supports what my grandfather taught me about the additive sales men and the " one arm bandit friction test" they like to use as a demo. They would drop any oil on and load the arm up fast, no time to heat up the oil. Then with there product they keep a hand on the level giving a light load as they talked to heat it up then load it producing much less wear. Gramps always said the oil temp meant more than anything. Something in it doesn't work until it hot. Looks like he was right. And he was a prefill the filter kind of mechanic. I turned out to be a "if its convenient fill it" kind mechanic.
Yes, I prefill my filters. Does it matter? Probably not. Best part of this video is the part about wear from cold starts. Provides that much more confirmation that spending $13,500 on a Green APU for my Peterbilt was a great idea. Fuel savings alone pays that off in around 2 to 2-1/2 years. And in the morning when I crank it up, my coolant temperature is between 100 - 160 degrees depending on outside temperature. I bump up the idle to build air pressure and finish my pretrip so it idles 10 - 15 minutes. I had it rebuilt right after I bought it with 972K on the odometer. All the bearings looked real good, and the sleeves all still showed the cross hatching. The truck used or burned no oil but I wanted to start off with a fresh rebuild so it will last me until I retire.
I can remember riding with my Grandad as a kid in his Pete 362. We’d idle that thing all night while we were in the sleeper. Of course, diesel was $0.74 back then. Nobody knew about no APU 😂
A $1000 Webasto Thermo Top EVO would do the same thing, just installed one on my KW and it’s worth its weight in gold. Fire it up for two-three hours and the coolant temp is at 110-120 degrees and oil at 80-90. All that in -10F degrees ambient temperature.
Thank you for your input! I have 2 old school DD 60 series in my semi's. I do oil samples 3 or more times a year. I use 15w-40 oil and have been told i can up to 20k intervals. People dont understand, as long as contaminants are low.... sulfur, metals etc, and viscosity is still good, you can go longer intervals. I'll take numbers over "ive always"...... Also, we high idle our semis to keep the cylinders at operating temps to keep the fuel burning. Unburned fuel in the cylinders will wash out the oil in the cylinders. When possible I always plug in my truck when temps are cold. Doesnt have to be overnight. Just a few hours. I do the same for my F250 with a 7.3 and my 98 Suburban with a 6.5. Keep em warm, cut out idling and keep oil clean.
Most entertaining video I've watched all day. The most useful information was in the last ten minutes. Every engine I've ever torn down has had one or two rod bearings that were worn, or scarred, considerably more than the others. Some of them always look pretty good. I always wondered about that, as they all had the same amount of the same oil on them. Thumbs up for rifles in the background. Two thumbs up for Dillon Precision reloaders. I like the can in your hand, too. Not the oil cans. The suppressor. I'm 63 years old. Getting down on the ground and getting back up is hard on my back and my knees. But I still love being under a vehicle. Especially a truck with enough ground clearance that I don't need to jack it. You are far more entertaining and less annoying than the Motor Oil Geek. I only suffered through his videos because I love motor oil tests. I've done some of my own tests. Mostly just to see how they react to heat and cold. From the very best oils to the very cheapest oils, both synthetic and conventional, and blends, the difference in the way they flow at -15 degrees Fahrenheit is minimal. Then, just about two minutes at room temperature, and they flow normally again. Add a little heat to the oils, and they all turn thin as water. I could see no difference at all, visually. But there probably was some. Manhole covers are round so the lid can't fall into the hole. Happy New Year, Sir.
Nice vid! Who knew, my daily commute activity is almost ideal. I typically start my vehicle and in less than a minute I'm idling out of my driveway and out of my neighborhood. Speed then picks up a little as I go through our small community, and after about 2 minutes from startup, I'm kicking it up to 70 mph for the next 3 minutes until I arrive at work.
Wow Burnt, you're on fire! 🔥 I'm so happy you sobered up and quit comedy for this, much better! Much love from Houston where the engines are practically at operating temperature year round. Thank you for doing this test and providing the summary on the SAE docs, the effort is appreciated 👍
Only example of the oil pump failing to prime with an oil filter (it's a mesh screen, not a spin on type, but whatever) change is my Continental A65 aircraft engine. As for dry start damage, I've started her a half dozen times after oil change/screen clean with zero oil pressure, where it runs for at least 10 seconds before I can check the oil gauge. I have to hand prop her since there's no electric system or starter and it takes that long after propping her to get around the wing to check the gauge. Anyway, she was made in the 40's and only rebuilt in 1976. After many zero oil pressure starts, there's still no measurable damage from them. You are right in saying there's still a film of oil on the parts even after sitting for a long time. It's when there's no pressure during power runs that the catastrophic damage happens.
My first thought to this is that there is simply not enough beer for me to complete this. The second thought was I would be trashed after realizing my first thought was wrong and 15 beers in after a half hour. Appreciate your odd amount of patience to put up with this test.
I read Bob Sikorsky's book "Drive it Forever" about 15 years ago and he shared the same information about operating temperature and engine life. His recommendation, and I should've done this, was add heaters to your engine block and coolant system to keep the engine at constant operating temperature. That way when you jump in to start it the system is practically always at operating temperature. However here's another study for ya, how much power will you use to keep the engine always at operating temperature? Add that up over the years and see if that equates to a an engine rebuild/replacement. After restoring a reliable vehicle from the ground up, I found you're likely to get into a vehicle totaling accident before you have to go through another major maintenance cycle anyway. When you're on the public highways it seems inevitable that idiots will find, and mess with your happiness, and Insurance companies don't care how much you spent restoring a vehicle, you know to keep from buying some questionable new junk.
I am totally fine with a few dollars per year going into keeping my garage above 50 degrees instead of potentially rebuilding an engine (when 90% of mechanics would screw it up anyway), but you're right about never knowing if your car will last that long for other reasons. My Toyota will most likely succumb to rust long before the engine fails. For the garage, obviously that's not operating temp for the engine, but it's going to be a lot easier on the car than the 10 degrees outside.
@@kylemacintoshlinux1449 Oh boy, we're going to need testing for this now..... And of course the decison will need to be made: is accelerated rust better to deal with or accelerated engine wear? I'll take engine wear everday.
@@mediocreman2 There are other considerations though. Air inside your garage at 50F holds a way more water than cold air outside (if it's an attached garage of course), so when you drive out some parts (like chassis) will get condensate, some in the places where water would never get into during normal driving. Needless to say water and steel are not friends.
The area I'd expect more wear with dry filters is in the head, the valves and the cam in overhead cam engines. The crankshaft bearings are just over the oil sump and oil gets splashed around as the crankshaft turns. So long as you have sufficient oil in the sump the crank bearings will be lubricated. But you need oil pressure to get oil up into the head and that's where I'd expect a dry filter to result in more wear. But, only by a little. Slick 50 has demonstrated that there is sufficient oil left behind when an engine has shut off and drains into the sump that the residual oil keeps the bearings lubricated long enough for the pressure to build up. Every day the first start of the engine will have to rely on residual oil to lubricate the engine until the pressure builds up, a dry filter only results in a few extra seconds of that. To me the most important thing is to not rev the engine or put a load on it until the oil is pressurized. Let the engine idle for 10 or 15 seconds after starting to insure proper oil protection before operating the vehicle.
You think that oil gets "splashed around" by the crankshaft? If that would happen, you will have a milkshake in the engine, with that much aeration. There is a reason why we have a level for the oil fill... Oil needs to get UNDER PRESSURE between the crank and piston bearings. Not just "splashed on the outside.
@@SorinNicu I know it does, look for videos of running engines. Do you have any clue at all how engines with unpressurized lubricating engines work? Clearly you don't. I love how willingly clueless people like to out themselves.
Yeah, the oil is sucked up through the sump and pumped through the galleries. It's filtered on the way back to the sump or reservoir. Why does it need to be prefilled?
@@KyleReese-vt8bo It is filtered BEFORE the circuit. Until it fills the oil filter... nothing it goes up that way. But the crankshaft is rotating. Dry.
I can’t for the life of me get the average forum lurking knuckle dragger to understand that use case determines what kind of oil change intervals one can get away with. If you do a dozen 2 mile trips a day, your engine isn’t gonna last, don’t care what oil or intervals you use but you’d better change it often. If you’re starting it once a day and driving 600 miles and you live in a hot climate, you could likely get away with 10k mile intervals however there are plenty of other factors to consider. Ultimately, cold starts kill machines.
@@freedomworx I change my oil ONCE per YEAR. Every January, I change the oil. I put about 3000-5000 miles per year on my Raptor. I use a Fram fully synthetic oil filter. I used to use Penzoil Ultimate synthetic, but recently switched to Supertec Advance full synthetic.
I’m a science, engineering, and education focused guy. You’re testing methodology was good value given the cost of materials. However your analysis of the results was amazing, you’ve done a perfect job of presenting your results and referencing other research papers to back up your claims. This is a very badass example of science communication. Your “big picture” moment at the end of the video snapped me back to reality. As you said, “[bearings don’t cause engine failure]” we often forget that we shouldn’t place too much value on a single test if there’s something much more appropriate to worry about such as cylinder wear. And good job of being complete in your video by offering a solution to reducing wear; drive up to operating temperature as well as one reasonably can without placing too much load on the engine.
Super grateful for your work here. Your comments on cold starts have confirmed my suspicions that cold starts are worse for engine wear than anything else. That’s why I personally try to avoid them as much as possible. 1) I don’t start my summer vehicles in the winter to “exercise them” 2) I consolidate chores to avoid separate cold starts. It’s obsessive yes, but cars are expensive.
Yes any engine that sits over winter, just leave it be, especially in frigid temps. Unless you can drive/ run it enough to get it to full temp for like a half hour 20 miles or so to cook off any condensate moisture.
This is a great explanation of why diagnosing the DTCs P0125 ( Insufficient Coolant Temperature For Closed Loop Fuel Control) OR P0128 (Coolant Temperature Below Thermostat Regulating Temperature) is so important to get corrected to ensure engine longevity. The thermostat monitor is designed to verify correct thermostat operation. This monitor is executed once per drive cycle and has a monitor run duration of 300-800 seconds. If a concern is present, DTC P0125 or P0128 is set and the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) is illuminated. A timer is initialized while the engine is at moderate load and the vehicle speed is above a calibrated limit. The target timer value is based on ambient air temperature at startup. If the timer exceeds the target time and engine coolant temperature or cylinder head temperature has not warmed up to the target temperature, a concern is indicated. The test runs if the startup intake air temperature from the intake air temperature (IAT) sensor is at or below the target temperature. A 2 hour engine OFF soak time is also required to enable the monitor and to prevent erasing of any pending DTCs during a hot soak. This soak time feature also prevents false passes of the monitor when the engine coolant temperature rises after the engine is turned OFF during a short engine OFF soak period. The target temperature is calibrated to within 11°C (20°F) less than the thermostat regulating temperature. For a typical 90°C (195°F) thermostat, the target temperature would be calibrated to 79°C (175°F). Some vehicle calibrations may lower the target temperature to less than 27°C (50°F) for vehicles that do not warm-up to thermostat regulating temperatures in the 11°C (20°F) to 27°C (50°F) ambient temperature range.
@@freedomworx Thanks for the reply! I’m an engineering student, and this is exactly how we approach lab experiments-controlling variables, ensuring an adequate sample size, minimizing external influences, and maintaining consistency in procedures. Since you’ve used all these methods, your results should be spot on! I loved this video, man. You have no idea how happy it makes me to see someone actually putting in the work to prove something with solid science, instead of just saying 'trust me, bro,' with their only source being their own imagination
Just idling is a waste of fuel, but in the winter you first start the engine while you get the ice and snow off the windows. If the car don't start you don't have to waste time on clearing the windows. And you'll get a bit of heat enough for the defroster to start working. Then drive smoothly until the engine is reasonably warm. One factor that wasn't in here is that too quick heating of the engine could result in a blown headgasket and other similar unwanted events caused by temperature stress in the engine. Now do a video on if it's worth it to have a break-in period of a new vehicle. I think it's worth it.
I never filled an oil filter ever. 219k miles on my 2010 pilot. Runs puuuurrrrfect. I've been working cars with my dad since I was a kid. I was a Honda mechanic also.
very cool. I have been prefilling for years and probably would not stop because it has worked for me so far, but finally someone with a little bit of scientific testing !
@@craigfin3222 you call that extensive testing??? 😆😆 Me...an actual engineer, giving you actual science. Might want to watch the video before you start pimping your man crush!
@@craigfin3222 BTW, you pay $650 and take a test to become a Tribologist. Try to become an engineer with $650 and one test... Give me 3 days to study and I could be a Certified Lubrication Specialist 😆
@@owenhill-vf7koyou said the same thing he did. And to you Michael, you’re not going to be able to trace something back like that. Prefilling, or not prefilling, will not destroy your engine in one go. That’s the point of this entire argument, if it was that easy to tell, one way or the other would be in the big fancy rule book of mechanic musts
I started and ended this video in the “it doesn’t make a difference. If it did people, way smarter than me wouldn’t be designing engine with the filter positioned upside-down or horizontal & manufactures would make it a point.” camp.
Thanks for the kind words! 😎 You should go watch my By-Pass Filter video. Even if you don't care about By-Pass Filtration, it has lots of good nuggets about engine lubrication in it. ruclips.net/video/qPXsCG-C-JY/видео.html
Been building and maintaining V8's for decades, mostly hemi's in the last twenty or so. I always fill the oil filter before firing it up. Letting the engine come up to temp before driving (when possible) is also a good practice- hemi's often "tick" before coming to temp. Thanks for the vid!
Yes! Most wear occurs on the rings and cylinders. And most wear is caused at start-up. Running an engine cold is the worst. The best thing you can do is warm your engine the fastest. A block heater in winter, and driving the vehicle to warm it, is the fastest and best way to warm it. The WORST way to warm it is to install a remote engine starter and let it sit idling in your driveway. Yes, evidence and science trumps all opinions. Also, short commutes when the engine is cold allows unburned fuel, moisture and combustion by-products to accumulate. The oil takes significantly longer than the coolant to reach full operating temperature, especially during winter months. If you don't take periodic extended highway runs, where the oil reaches operating temperature long enough to heat and evaporate off these contaminants, they WILL accumulate and degrade the oil's lubricating properties, causing premature wear, and sludge to build up that restricts oil flow. This essentially is Severe Service, which requires more frequent oil changes than what the OEM recommends. (Many OEM owner's manuals discuss Severe Service and recommend oil changes at half the normal distance.) Good job on this video...!
Good. Hopefully my jagoff next door neighbor who idles his engine for 45-60 minutes every damn night at 1:30 before finally leaving will have it seize soon.
@@thewiseguy3529 Sorry, but actual demonstrated evidence, as in the study referenced in the vid, always trumps mere opinion and old wives tales... Modern oils are designed to flow in cold start-ups. That's what the W means in an oil's viscosity rating of say 5W30. And no one advised to floor it or drive on the expressway. You're supposed to keep moderate load on the engine until it warms. Since it's been demonstrated most wear occurs in a cold engine, the point is it will warm significantly faster by driving it at a moderate speed, than sitting idling in your driveway...
My friend always pre-filled his filters, then drove his top-of-the-line Honda at 4000 rpm everywhere he went, except the interstate. Around town was always 2nd gear or 3rd. I had a POS Pontiac, never pre filled filters, and always drove at about 1200 to 1500 rpm, even used 5th (top) gear around town. At 133,000 miles his Honda desperately needed rings and a hone job because it used a quart of oil every five minutes. My Pontiac also had 133,000 miles, and it never burned a drop. So, I bought a compression test kit and found the cylinders were 133, 136, 136, and 139. The shop manual said do a hone job at something like 96 psi, or if any one cylinder was 25 psi less than the other three. Basically, my engine was in mint condition. BTW we both used Mobil 1 synthetic. BTW, my friend said the engine didn't make proper oil pressure until 4000 rpm. I later told him that the idle speed is determined by the point at which the oil pressure regulator starts bleeding off pressure, which is where it's making proper pressure. Yes, he has had many concussions when crashing, even knocked himself out a few times. Me? Never, I always protected my head and neck with my arms. He and most racers use their heads to break their fall.
1000% correct about why engines fail. Finally someone else saying it 👊looks like Dave’s auto center was correct about cold starting an engine let it idle for a few seconds and go. Proved all the haters wrong. They won’t admit defeat tho. Because they know it all. Cousins brothers uncles cat told them so and he’s a mechanic.
Dave's Auto Center also says to change your oil every 3,000 miles to maintain your warranty on their engines... They lost me when they said that. Not sure if he believes that is actually needed, or if that is just a loophole for them to get out of warrantying their engines.
@@freedomworx I think it's probably because, and I say this from turning wrenches for years too, most common people straight up don't keep up with their oil even a little, they don't care. They hear 5 or 6 thousand and think what's a few more thousand, and the next thing you know I'm swapping out a 120,000 mile engine that's had probably 10 oil changes in its life, 6 of those with no oil left to drain lol. At some point the "mechanic's ethics" die a little inside 😂
With modern engines and manufacturers requiring more from oil than just cooling, cushioning and lubricating changing the oil sooner rather than later is not a bad idea. Once manufacturers started using oil to run cam phasers, vvt solenoids, DOD/ MDS on top of performing its normal duties but also suggesting extended oil change intervals it didn’t make sense to me to run the oil longer than 3-5k miles especially how I drive. Yes oil is better than it has ever been but engines today also run hotter for fuel and emissions efficiency than they ever have. That isn’t even including how hard these small displacement turbo charged engines get run in just daily driving. With that said I have never heard of or seen an engine dying because I changed the oil too often but I have heard and seen them die when it was not changed frequently enough. Plus oil changes are a lot cheaper than a whole built engine. Plus I get to get under there and spot potential issues before they become problems. Like that loose exhaust pipe you found.
@@freedomworx ya his insane change intervals I don’t really agree with either but he’s technically not horribly wrong there either. Just not that’s crucial if ya ask me. Definitely wouldn’t hurt. His mentality is probly because people are so lazy that if he said 6 thousand they’d change it at 10-12 so if he says 3 it might actually happen at 6 🤷♂️all depends on the engine tho to. These new diesels, oh heck ya I agree with that. With emissions junk in tact the amount of soot that gets into the oil is friken insane and we can clearly see neeer diesel engines with emissions in tact absolutely don’t last like the old ones without so there’s definitely something to it when it comes to emissions in tact engines I’d say
@@sportmedtech Modern air/oil separators (PCV systems) greatly extend the life of the oil by pulling a vacuum on the crankcase at all times, even in boosted applications. Combined with the advances in oil itself, anything short of 5k is just goofy unless all you do is short trips.
I'll start by saying good video, and an interesting take on a highly debated topic. The data from your test doesn't necessarily show that dry filters don't introduce additional bearing wear compared to pre-filled, it shows that any bearing wear that occurs from either is more than offset by the 6 gallons of fresh oil introduced into the system over the course of the testing. The likely source of the high initial wear indicators would be the residual old oil from the previous use interval, which was diluted down over the course of your testing. I'd be interested to see a follow up test where you just repeatedly drain and fill the engine incrementally with 6 gallons while performing 50 starts and see if your beginning and end points are similar to what you got from this experiment. To get truly accurate data on the effect of just filling or not filling the filters you would need to start from a known clean state without that residual used oil and bearing material already floating around in there. As you yourself pointed out, even letting it sit for years won't remove all of the old oil (with old contaminants) from every nook and cranny of the engine. You need to find a way to completely clear it all out and start with pure, fresh oil coming out of the motor that tests identically to what comes straight from a new bottle. Anything less is an additional uncontrolled variable.
Totally agree with you. I don't understand how this point can be overlooked so easily. Still have never seen anyone actually do a test that doesn't leave a simple answer overlooked 🤦♂️. And also notice how when someone points out the obvious the creator has nothing to say.
Great video, man! Thanks for all that usage of those muscles you haven’t worked out in a while! Not long ago I saw a Motor Oil Geek (or one where he was a guest) video where they were actually measuring how long their engine took to get oil pressure with pre-filled filter vs dry filter. The pre-filled took 6.6 seconds and the dry took…7.1 seconds. He basically just said “Well, I’m gonna continue to pre-fill anyway” 😂
I don't know what video you were watching. Way back when I was first learning engine mechanics we compared time to reach 40 psi oil pressure in a 1970 Pontiac Stratochief with Chevrolet 250 cu.in. inline six cylinder engine. It took 1.8 seconds for the engine with pre-filled filter to obtain oil pressure. But it took 7.7 seconds with a dry filter. That was a looong 7.7 seconds! The engine rattled and knocked the entire time. We saw and heard all we needed to know.
Sounds like something was wrong and the oil pump lost its prime, no way an engine would last if every startup it took 6.6 seconds to build pressure at 1000 rpm
@@KevinMaxwell-o3t just tried to find it in my RUclips history…went back through November before I gave up lol It was a video where they had an engine on a stand, they timed the time until oil pressure. It might have been a video where he was a guest on someone else’s channel? Not doubting you on the time difference, I was just surprised (as they were) that the time difference they were seeing was so minimal
He also had a video where he LOA'd a thin oil like 0W20 vs 20W50 and found measurable wear metals not filling the filter with the thin oil vs. it not mattering with the 20W50.
Great video. Been changing my own oil for 40+ years and never filled an oil filter until my last change on my 6.7 F250. The filter must have weighted 10 lbs full of oil and i had time getting it started. not work all that effort. BTW you had me at the Dillon press.
When I worked for Westrac/Cat ( working on 793 dump trucks, D11 dozers etc etc) I read a lot of technical bulletins and data about filling and pre filling oil filters, it was also a big no no pre filling filters, that included all oils like engine, trans, diffs and diesel filters. I get why they say not to do it, Westrac/Cat where very big on contamination not getting into components.
As a company, they had to think of all the different things that happen in a shop . Like the kid who removed my Alison Transmission filter when the shop was just doing an oil change . I don't know how much engine oil got into the filter .
Tesla used to have a coolant flush as part of the maintenance schedule. They eliminated it, and it reduced their failure rate. This happened not because of some new magical coolant, but because they traced the primary cause of cooling related failures to contamination and determined it was better to leave the degraded coolant in the cars than risk a tech contaminating the system when flushing it.
I once rode an airhead bmw motorcycle for 5 mins with no oil in the sump… I never checked the bearings, but the bores had no noticeable wear. It had nearly 40k miles when this happened, I put another 20k miles on the bike before selling. Crazy stuff!
I would only prefill if the engine has been completely stripped down and rebuilt where there is no oil on the surfaces. Plus if prefill is so important, manufacturers would never put filters in horizontal or even upside down positions. Clearly it doesn't matter. Also pressure doesn't mean protection. Pressure means there is flow and flow is cooling. Your oil film can withstand 30kpsi of pressure and the measly 15psi from oil pressure does nothing. On the same topic, warming up the engine too long can actually cause more damages to the piston rings and cylinder walls. The rich mixture from cold engine washes the oil film off the walls and rings. It also dilutes the oil when going into the oil crank case.
Hopefully your rebuilld engine has oil applied of the surfaces, when you assamble the engine. On new or rebuild engines you just have to prevent the engine from starting. The easiest thing to do is, pull the fuse for the full pump, try to start the engine for 10 sec and here you have your fillter pre fiiled. Also you now have oil pressure on the chain tensionar, hydraulic lifter etc. that completely eliminate the rattle noises on first starts.
If you put an engine together with no assembly lube of some sort(oil or better yet GM EOS is what ive used) then pre filling an oil filter wont help you at all. Gonna have instant bearing damage. If pressure does not mean protection then try running it with 2PSI oil pressure and see how long it lasts. Your last statement is off base as well, multiple cold starts and short trips cause what your describing. Idle speed up to operating temp does not do what you say.
Long ago I spent time with a boat engine builder. He was running his engines boosted and running at very high power, steady. The boats were making violent turns and pounding the water up and down. As a result, they were getting a lot of air into the oil system. Even dry sump, the separators were unable to completely de-aerate. At his very high bearing loads and violent torque spikes as the prop got into air, he determined that the collapsed bubbles were growing into dry spots at bearings causing bearing damage. He actually mapped the pressure field across the plain bearings (main oil pressure at the feed port, zero at the edge of the bearing, with gradient profile varying depending if on the loaded or unloaded side). After experimenting with extremely high feed pressures, multiple feed ports, he came across a paper on designing for oil wedging, He has assistance from a company specializing in bearings meant for 2stroke engines and had bearings made with tree shaped slots , and placed restrictors into the supply ports. The oil pressure now dropped greatly right after the restrictor. Oil mass flow per bearing increased. Bubbles now blew out as they passed the restrictor and air and oil rapidly flowed through the channels. Now, the advancing journal was wiping up the oil so as to build dynamic pressure. The end result was that his engine life jumped. No more spun bearings and scrapped crankshafts. Does this apply to a car engine? Not very much as a car engine with a bunch of air in the oil arriving at a lightly loaded bearing (engine at idle), isn’t going to suffer much damage. But, for a race engine being run at say twice the torque is was designed for, at steady high RPM, he increased plain bearing life from about 1 hour to indefinite. His experience underscores how expanding bubbles can cause touchdown. The solution of arranging wedging type bearings was brilliant.
Fantastic comment, which is exactly why the comments section is so useful! Someone told me about a very reliable car that had seized, but about six months after it had been involved in an accident and ended up on its roof. I suggested it had remained running upside down for a bit and had had enough oil starvation to put a simulated 100k miles on it. So it packed up very early. Unlikely in a car but as you say in a power boat it's a very violent environment. Can't think of another motor sport that's as bad. Maybe rally driving?
@@highdownmartin I thought modern cars had rollover detection? But maybe the rollover detection cuts fuel pump and enough dry running can happen to wipe the bearings?
I always prefill oil filters on passenger buses, but never on small cars. Also, you are ALWAYS supposed to prefill diesel fuel filters. If you don't, you've introduced an entire filter worth of air into your fuel system 😂. By the way, I'm a diesel mechanic. I've have worked for multinational companies for a decade.
I have some old videos of my Nitrous 2 valve 4.6L 2004 Mustang GT on my channel than took a beating and kept on ticking even after survivng a major oil related wear issue. Related to engine wear with no oil pressure, I once did a rolling nitrous burnout from a stop sign (trying to impress a girl in the passenger seat) and blew the oil pump gear apart on the 2-3 shift. I thought I heard a "pop" during it but after the burnout i put it in 5th and was cruising around the lake with no weird sounds or problems. About 2 minutes and over a mile later I started hearing a faint "puft puft puft" sound and I thought to myself I blew an exhaust gasket. Another about 2 minutes and 3 miles later the "puft puft puft" sound got a little louder but I was talking to the girl and it didn't register to me that it could be something other than the exhaust gasket. Around 6 minutes and at least 5 miles later the "puft" sound started to sound like a "tack tack tack" sound which was the lifters drying out. I checked my gauges and noticed my factory oil pressure gauge was at zero! I immediately shut the engine off and coasted the car into the nearest driveway. I flipped on my aftermarket Autometer oil pressure gauge and cranked the car. Zero oil pressure on both gauges. Towed the car home and tore into the engine. The outer ring gear on the pump cracked and a tooth on the gear broke. I pulled the oil pan off to get to the rod caps to check the rod bearings for wear. I took a rod cap off and was amazed to see that the rod bearing looked new. Literally zero wear! I credit that to the Mobil 1 full synthetic I ran in the car. Car had about 50,000 miles on the engine. Replaced the pump with a billet one and it went on to survive 6,000RPM rev limiter clutch dumps on slicks N/A and lot of 4,000 RPM launches with a 150 shot of nitrous. Car ran like a dream when I traded it for a terminator. I say all that to say if I ran my car for over 6 minutes with zero oil pressure and my rod bearings showed no visual wear I don't think one second of no oil pressure during oil changes by not filling the filter will affect the engine in a material way. Also, I always pre-fill my filters to this day. It doesn't really help much but gives me peace of mind.
When changing a fuel filter on a diesel engine if you do not have a priming pump you could cause yourself problems. I serviced a lot of caterpillar equipment and there were a few in particular that was best to fill the primary and secondary filters. However, caterpillar does not recommend filling the fuel filters either because of accidental introduction of contaminants. If you’re careful, you are not going to introduce contaminants.
Steady state engine operation of any kind is much better than varying RPM and load. Commercial equipment like over the road trucks have clearly proven than. also dozers excavators ect engines have been proven to last much longer running against the governor at a single speed all day instead of constantly accelerating and decelerating.
most cars have manual pumps at the filter housing or electric pump at the tank, so it will self prime, or you manually prime it, some exotics or money pits like Range Rovers require diagnostic to prime the filter, but they are not that many
I once started a ford fiesta and ran it until the thermostat opened and the fan came on . Then I saw that the oil light was on and remembered that I had drained it the previous day . I dropped the sump and pulled the Big end caps . And they looked new I put them back and refilled it . Its still running 4 years later
Which generation was it? If it’s an old one from the late nineties I‘m not surprised. They had the Endura E engines that made almost no power but were nearly indestructible
Bro, first time I’m seeing a video of yours, and I love videos like this, and I can already say you’ve just got yourself a subscriber, at least. Probably.
. I used to work in a large plant that had many moving parts. Each of the bearing surfaces were lubricated with collodial graphite oil either once a week of once a month, depending upon the machine. We applied one drop of oil to the bearing surface with a paint brush, and then wiped a rag over it to remove any excess. Admittedly our parts were light duty only. Your engine should already have oil on its bearings from the last time it was run. The pumped lubrication system on most cars is an overkill. Once the bearing surfaces have oil on them, there is little point in adding more. Once it is wet, it is wet. You can't get wetter than wet. .
@@freedomworx Also, to keep the clearances filled with oil so the wedge of oil can be dragged into the load zone and thus pressurized, which does the heavy lifting in a journal bearing. The pump pressure DOES NOT float the journal/bearing apart. Also to keep the oil itself cool. The shear within the oil layer is the source of a lot of the heat produced; the relative contribution of contact friction I don’t know, but suspect it’s the lesser.
Man you ate wrong on so many levels, pressure from combustion squeezes the oil film pushing the oil out of the bearings, luckiny we have pressurized oil to immediately fill the gap, so yes pressure is very much needed,and as the engine wears the film is thicker and more pressure can be needed, you cant turn 7500 rpm with 15 pounds of pressure,
@@ShannonpdpHammond-yy7yh Just wondering how many years your 7500rpm engine will last.... I have two 1925 motorcycles that use Pilgrim Total Loss lubricators. These admit one drop of oil into the engine main bearings every 6 seconds, and have run that way for the last 100 years. Also some Briggs and Stratton engines use a Flinger on the big end to splash oil from the sump all over the crancase. I could also try to explain to you how all two strokes get lubricated, with petrol that has just 1/50th part of oil mixed in. ruclips.net/video/JkYeGolDxfA/видео.html
I don't think I've ever prefilled, because when I asked an old timer mechanic, he told me it didn't really matter. I figured why do an extra step if it didn't really matter, and my highest mileage truck (320k+) only failed due to the transfer case chain coming apart.
Highest mileage engine we had was a bmw M52TU in a 2000 323i It’s a top mount cartridge filter. You literally cannot pre fill that filter. Sold the car with 252k miles and engine was perfect. Trans was starting to slip a little after never being serviced. This was also with bmws oil service indicator so whenever the oil light came on it was changed. That’s can be up into the 10-15k mile range but it’s a full synthetic oil.
This is well done. And it makes sense. It also explains why engines that have extremely high mileage were almost always highway driven. I remember seeing a Scotty Kilmer video on this topic. In his multi-decade experience as a mechanic, he has only seen a million-mile (1.6 million km) engine a few times. One was in an older Toyota Camry, while the other was in an older Ford F150. These vehicles are known for longevity, but the common denominator was highway driven - and almost exclusively at that! So the take-away is pre-filling or not likely won’t make much of a difference. The best advice may be: doing regular maintenance, driving your vehicle for a longer period at a time (to drive more at operating temperature), and driving calmly when the engine is cold.
ESPECIALLY the drive calmly when engine is cold. I live in Canada and the amount of tims I see someone hop into their BMW put it in sport mode, and boot off down the road from their driveway. You can hear the engine wails and screeches sometimes from all thie ice cold parts crying. Then thy wonder why their engine/trans only lasted 60,000Kms. "BMWs are crap cars, with shitty engines that break all the time.".... No, you're just a moron with more uncontrolled testosterone than rational brain cells....
The real hero here is the starter.
someone buy that starter a beer
@@herzogsbuick and some bacon.
It’s still under warranty 😎
yeah, everyone talks about the starter, what about the battery?
On a serious note though, very good video, very well done and explained and shown in a way everyone can understand.
Excellent work
50 starts, with only 1 minute run-time inbetween - the **BATTERY** is the real HERO here if it didn't require supplemental charging!!!
I’m an engineering student, and this is exactly how we approach lab experiments-controlling variables, ensuring an adequate sample size, minimizing external influences, and maintaining consistency in procedures. Since you’ve used all these methods, your results should be spot on! I loved this video, man. You have no idea how happy it makes me to see someone actually putting in the work to prove something with solid science, instead of just saying 'trust me, bro,' with their only source being their own imagination.
I appreciate the support brother. I was in your shoes 20 years ago. Funny thing is how many people tell me my results aren’t valid because of this, that, and the other. And those people generally have no education or training in engineering, physics, chemistry, Thermo, metallurgy, etc… but they can always find the flaw in the procedure. The rest are disgruntled scientists or engineers that are butt hurt because some guy on the internet showed or explained something better than they could. No matter how good you do it, there will always be masses of people on social media that would have done it better or done it correctly with their infinite budget and access to NASA’s labs. 😂.
@@freedomworxHaha, lmao, right. I don’t think a lot of people realize how much work goes into producing a video like this. It’s not just the editing, filming, and time-it’s also about setting up a solid experiment. You need clear steps that can be easily repeated, and it has to give a clear answer to the hypothesis while following all the rules of proper experimentation, like only having one independent variable. Seriously, great job, man. There are people out there who see the effort you put in and really appreciate it. You’re genuinely making the world a better place by showing others how to objectively find the truth. Keep it up!
@Colin_MacNeil I appreciate the kind words. And you are right. I’ve had this one on the docket for over a year. No telling how many times I thought about this while driving down the road, just to make sure what I was doing would provide a solid result. 👍
Yep. This is a terrific video. The scientific method is the power step of human history. They teach the Age of Enlightenment as guys thinking and writing. Nope, it's engineering and scientific experimentation. Do more of what works, less of what doesn't and... the king, pope, minister, your mother in law are no longer unquestionable authorities.
I have a Yanmar diesel engine in my boat. I changed the oil and tried to fill up the filter 'just like everybody says to...' The oil filter is a side mount. More of a mess than anything else. The one thing the real manuals (and not just some people on RUclips doing something for the first time) is warm up the engine on idle for 5 minutes before doing anything. This is that wear period. If I had to guess I would say that an engine not at operating temperature has tolerances that are not to spec so take it easy. But these must not be too significant otherwise there would be heaters on engine blocks. (And engines in cold countries should probably wear more quickly than those in warm countries....)
The vast majority of people in the world are really good, friendly, helpful... but most insist on doing anything but thinking and learning. Me? I was very fortunate to have wonderful parents who punished me for just about everything (I was also really annoying). So that one day when I (finally) fixed my sister's bicycle, I still got snapped at and smacked. But this changed everything. If it works than I'm not wrong. After that I was unstoppable.
Somewhere along the line I fine tuned this. 1. Positive feedback loops are incredibly powerful. Do more of what works, less of what doesn't. Learn how to objectively tell the difference.
2. Make a lot of mistakes and learn from them. (but 2.B. It still rankles me when someone tells me I'm wrong. It shouldn't, they're either helping me, or if they are wrong - so what? I usually don't argue, but that pinch of ego? A waste of my time.)
3. Always go back to basics.
4. Deliberate practice. Break it down, step by step.
5. Have fun, make money, do amazing things,
@@freedomworx welp.... Yep, there's a hell of a lot of work that went into making this video..... The editing and the filming makes it easy for the viewer to take in but the freaking headache that probably came with just obtaining the lab results, which means all the testing that took place just to get those two sheets of paper, I sure as hell wouldn't have the patience to do it LoL ... My titties are tickled just to see somebody go through it all with actual results... Great work 👍
“I know the gorilla that put this on and he always over tightens them, plus I was drinking that day” 😂😂😂
High test gorilla beers 😂💪🏼
I always love how I’m not supposed to pre-fill an oil filter because it might get contaminated, but I’ve also got to jam the filter up through a bunch of dirty wiring and hoses to install it. It’s like the engineers never thought a dump truck would get dirty.
And, quite a few of the diesels I service don’t have an electric lift pump or a manual priming pump. If we didn’t pre-fill the fuel filters many won’t prime themselves after changing filters. Some won’t even prime with the priming pump if you don’t pre-fill the water separator.
some engineers did good and made it super convenient at the top, no more dirt in the filter except you're a pre-filler and dump all the oil out while trying to install the filter.
Totally agree brother. Ended my mechanical career as a school bus mechanic and my district bought a lot of Cummins powered busses. Cummins puts the oil filter in an easily accessible area R/F of the engine. Then the chassis/body builders procede to route wiring harness and heater coolant lines all around the oil filter making it nearly impossible to remove/install. Oblivious to the fact that particular part needs changed regularly!
@@kypparmstrong2775 I found installing a prefilled filter there difficult (ISX15) and even had one jump threads when tightening. I might of cross threaded it, but had jumped a thread on one side after the pop. What a fix. Have fun
100%, go ahead and don't pre fill the fuel filters in an M113 armored personnel carrier and watch what happens, you'll NEVER get it started, same thing with those diesel powered welding rigs I worked with as an ironworker, you couldn't go a week without someone forgetting to fuel one up in the morning and before lunch it'd run out of fuel, you could top off the fuel tank and without priming the filters you'll never get it to start.
your supposed to clean that thing
This is an excellent video. Probably one of the best Ive seen. Excellent example of the scientific process.
Wow! Thank you so much for your generosity! That’s going straight back into the science fund 😎🤓👍
Good of you both.
thats inasane ive never seen a donation this high!
So fill them half way… got it.
Half empty or half full?
Literally just do whatever you want all the time cause nothing has ever mattered and certainly still does not
@markrix if your adding, then half full, if you're removing then half empty 🤷♂️
@@619omni The obvious logical answer I've concluded my whole life. Stop projecting emotions onto cups folks.
LOL I'm with Andrew.
Hey, I just saw someone put 49 USED oil filters on EBay, that wouldn't happen to be you?? 🤣
Were they listed as barely used BNIB...
LNIB…pre-oiled at no extra charge 🤓
Only driven on Sundays.
I know what I got.
The car talks for itself (I've always wanted to call up and ask to speak to the car).
@@freedomworx 'Seller refurbished' or 'customized'?
That's funny!
Thank you for this incredible science-based video. You clearly spent a lot of time assembling this, and did a great job of packaging the information while being respectful of alternate realities. As an engineer, I tip my hat to you!
I appreciate the support brother👍
I’ve got one for and one against. In my 20 years in the Air Force, on multi-million dollar aircraft our tech data always has us pre fill oil and hydraulic filters. The point against is I have owned a dozen vehicles with inverted and horizontal filters, both of which make it impossible to pre-fill. So at the end of the day I suppose I’m in the “it doesn’t matter” camp unless otherwise explicitly stated in the technical documentation. On a side note, I admire your dedication to the debate. Rock on!
But,,,You can still pre-soak the filter which also makes a big difference.
A horizontal filter will still absorb about half into the paper, I always do, makes sense to deliver oil ASAP
Obviously your “experience” failed to understand how prefilling soaks the filter element
My wife's wrangler has a horizontal oil filter. I always pre fill it....
Does that blower have an intercooler underneath? That's the same setup that I plan on using in my Vega wagon and I'm planning on using E85 but I'm wondering if I'm still going to need an intercooler.
"Engines don't reach their EOL because of bearing wear" - BMW guys, hold my beer. 😂😂
Well obviously there are exceptions 😂
Mercedes M274 doesn't have this issue, because valve seats burn out just before the bearings wear out, so the owner can rebuild the whole engine at once. So convenient. 😂
A lot of BMW's are spinning bearings... and that's a lubrication issue.
🙂#XcelPlus
I feel attacked
VAG had to change the specs of the oil for their 1.9TDI PD engines from 97-00. Without the proper oil, the cams, lifters and injectors were getting damaged. Something about needing to maintain an oil film on them for restarts ?
Been wrenching on engines since 1948 - yeah, I'm that old.
No pre-fill - the engine rattles until the oil pressure comes up
Pre-fill - the engine does not rattle
A rattling engine is not a happy engine
That's enough science for me
Rattle also stops if you bond a lubricant to your engine.
:-) #XcelPlus
@@MichaelCzajka Thats splash oiling you need pressure to float the bearing in an oil wedge. Oil does have a film strength but its not enough.
Four seconds compared to how many thousands of hours of use ? Negligible.
I have an aftermarket ecu, i just disable injectors and prime the engine to build a bit of pressure first, then start it, avoid the rattling and potential wear from it. That way it starts with pressure built up already.
I own a 4.6L 2V Ford. It rattles every single time it pumps up because it drains down every time it stops. My self-assuredness does not prevent physical mechanical wear of inanimate objects, regardless of how old I am or important I believe that makes me.
First off this is a great video.
I still think warming the engine up at idle temperature is best because you left out one major variable. So we know you want to avoid your engine torque peak because that creates more cylinder wall pressure. With that in consideration, let’s say your engine takes three minutes to get to operating temperature idling at 1000 RPMs, and it takes one minute for your engine to reach operating temperature at 6000 RPMs. You are going to get to operating temperature faster at 6000 RPMs, but you will use 6000 revolutions. While idling your vehicle at 1000 RPMs for three minutes will use 3000 revolutions. I think the low torque low rpm would be the best bet after watching your video because it’s less revolutions to get to operating temperature at low torque.
I appreciate the support. But you kinda went to the extreme with the 6,000 RPM statement. I live in the diesel world most of the time. And many diesels will never reach operating temp by idling. You need RPM and load to ever get to operating temp. Gas engines will typically get there without any load. But you are making the assumption that the cold engine wear is related to engine speed. But the reality is, it's primary from corrosion, not physical wear. Combustion byproducts react with the cold cylinder walls, and condense, forming acids that corrode the cylinder wall and rings. It'll do that regardless of the RPM. Probably 😉
All I saw was bullets, bacon, trucks, comedy and competence. So i followed.
Thanks brother 😎
Did you miss the suppressor and the huge syringe LOL!
I'm a classically trained session violinist. I don't even know how I got here, but bacon, science and thick oily fingers stroking small oily tubes makes for a compelling video.
@@freedomworx youre a fascinating man well made video
Exactly the same here, just had to do some math for understanding. Turns out i am a lazy european, no filling of the oil filter, and only once in 50000 kilometers, that's about 31000 miles. After 300000 kilometers, my little ford still runs great.
“Bearings don’t take out engines…” *Unless it’s one of the new v6 Tundras.
Or Kia and Hyundai from around 10, 15 years ago.
Or the Subaru BRZ.
Or "old" Renault 1.5 DCI. But if you change rod bearings preventively every 150k miles it will last way more than that.
or early 2000s porsche 911 engine thats notorius for spinning the main bearings
BMW has entered the chat.
One of the best vids I've seen on the subject, thank you for doing it. I'm a commercial fisherman that has just over 34K hours on on my vessel's main engine, over 42K on the 21KW genset since its last overhaul, as well as with 5500 hours on my 2006 Ford F250 diesel. The boats' genset runs constantly for days and weeks on end, sometimes up to 4 weeks straight without a prolonged shutdown (only shut down to change oil and fuel filters). Since my main and genset share the same cooling system, due to the heat in the engine room and the coolant flow the main engine is kept near operating temp even when it's not running. When I fire it up after 8 hours of down time, the temp is at 170 degrees within seconds. My poor Ford, however, gets started and stopped several times a day when I'm in town. In my small island town (13 miles of road), it rarely gets a chance to warm up properly.
I do 300 hour oil change intervals on both my main and genset by default (prefill both engines' spin-on filters), and 5k intervals on my Ford (cartridge filter, so no pre-fill). I buy my oil by the barrel and use the same oil in everything - whatever CI-4 or better 15W40 my oil vendor has in stock. Last few barrels have been Phillips 66 Guardol, but I'll use whatever they have as their 15W40 commodity oil. My oil analysis results appear to show exactly what your conclusion shows - both of my boat engines' hourly wear rates are miniscule compared to the Ford's wear (I bought that truck new in 2006, and currently have 175K on it - a non-tuned 6.0 with good maintenance history and none of the stereotypical 6.0 issues). I had always assumed it was in part due to prefilling my vessel's spin-on filters, where that isn't an option for the Ford.
As an observation, I'll add the following - the vessel's main was installed brand new in 2014 when I bought the boat, and I overhauled the genset engine the same year when it had 50K hours on it as it was buring oil. It has always been on basically the same run schedule for decades before I bought the boat. No joke, it looked like the genset bearings could have been reused. The crank spec'd within tolerances and had no scoring at all. I didn't really look at the cylinder wear at the time, unfortunately. I put a set of standard rod and mains back in it, new pistons, rings and sleeves, refurbished injectors and injector pump units, and besides a water pump and front main seal issue (my fault on install), it's been running flawlessly since then.
Didn't mean to write a book here, but this is a long way to come around and say this video was very, very enlightening. I had always suspected the lack of prefill ability on my F250's engine was a root cause of the additional wear, but you've convinced me that it's just my abusive driving habits. With the boat engines basically being at operating temp for a third of the year and rarely run between seasons, I expect to easily get 50k out of each no problem.
Excellent work, thanks again. Subscribed.
Thanks for adding your personal experiences. It correlates well with the conclusion of this video.
Sounds like Ketchikan where winter weather is 32.5 degree, wind 90 mph, and rain 3" per hour blowing sideways filling your cistern. Have fun
@@adiamondforever7890 Good call - I'm on the coast in Sitka.
Your VW likely has aluminum bimetal bearings unless they've been replaced, so lead isnt really a wear metal. They're likely lead free. That 5.9 has leaded bearings, tho.
Oh, and I called the trend. But, I can't tell you how I knew the outcome (with confidence). 😊 Almost like I know where this was professionally done before...
Also, the wear. My bet would be on ring dynamics and dimensional changes across temp ranges assumin constant speed, load, and combustion. Those radiotracer measurements on one of the treated aluminum parent bore engines would be cool.
@@JC-dt7jv VW? 5.9? I don't have either of those.
8:53 Sponsor segment so fast I didn't even have time to skip it
😂😂
Had me dead😭👌
My hand didn't even make it to the touch pad on my laptop before the segment finished. That's smart advertising!
Nice work! The SAE paper data at the end was gold. I'm with you on piston ring and liner wear.
fancy seeing you here!
How does it feel to be discredited.
Why an Oil Geek watching an oil video.
@@stuglenn1112yeah what does he know building winning nascar cup engines and being around it his entire lifetime and learning from his father also a nascar legend. But hell experience and wisdom means nothing I don’t know why anyone even makes or watches videos about any of these topics cause we all can just build engines first try that make 800+HP n/a and run wide open for 500 miles straight😂
@@Thumper68 To be fair theoilguy worked in that industry with very sciency equipment for years but he doesnt know more than the dude that idled his motor for ten minutes in between tests points. No double blinds, no (real) control. No hate btw he put together some really good information and made a valiant effort.
As an engineman in the Navy working on locomotive engines (used for main propulsion and generators) the engines have lube oil pumps and heaters AND coolant heaters/pumps running consistently when not in use. They keep the engine up near that 160°F temp and flowing through the system to prevent wear as stated in the SAE papers. Samples are also taken while running. The oil is also sent through Lube oil purifiers and are hardly ever changed. We just add "make up oil" for what is lost through through the purification process. The coolant system also does not have "antifreeze". It is just a corrosion inhibitor such as NALCOOL since the temp is never allowed to get close to freezing. Keeping the oil up at temp also helps prevent condensation in the oil system which we all know is bad.
ALCO baby
Locomotive engines....GM 16-278A's? Fairbanks Morris 38D 8 1/8 ? You B a boat sailor?
That’s a great data point, but most folks on here are looking at filters for automobile engines that done have pre lube pumps or keep warm circuits. So it may be a bit different…
If I had a locomotive I might do that too.
@@MM1Teracruzer was before I switched to Riverine.
To avoid conflict when doing an oil change i've taken some steps to do it properly:
1) Clean room for oil dispensers
2) All oil sent to refill the filter is run thru a filter before passing thru a sanitizer and molecular analysis system.
3) If the program detects no contaminants above 3 microns, the process is completed until the filter is 98.5% filled since our scientists determined this was the amount for best results.
4) Our robots bring a mobile containment system protecting the prefilled filter from the dirty air we breathe and other contaminants into the service bay.
5) After a thorough prep of the area around, under and inside the filter mounting area a sealed robotic arm brings the filter thru a previously sanitized tube, where our filter installation tooling spins it into place to exacting factory specifications. Of course the filters seal was prefabricated.
6) In clear flood mode the engine is cranked until oil pressure rises to specification. The engine is safe to start at this point.
7) Once the system is removed and stowed in the clean room the vehicle is inspected for leaks and oil level, a sticker added to the windshield with the next recommended interval at half what the manufacturer recommends. Oil reminder is reset during the final phase of the process.
8) All floor, seat, wheel, armrest and fender protection is removed.
9) The vehicle is delivered to the Happy customer.
10) We are aware The internet will still find a fault in the process.
So sterile, the vehicle’s immune system is underdeveloped.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PROTECT AGAINST WEAR ON THE PRE SANITIZED COMPONENTS! YOU HAVE FAILED TO TAKE IN MICRO PLASTICS AND MICRON SIZED DUST PARTICLES REMAINING ON THE ASSEMBLY DUE TO FRICTION! THIS ENTIRE PROCEDURE MUST BE DONE IN A VACCUM! WITH NEAGTIVE PRESSURE VENTED TO HEPA FILTEATED AND UV SANITIZED AIR FILTERS!
(The Internet will still find fault in this process)
You didn't mention hair and beard nets.
The Internet is always right :)
But did you wear a MIL spec hazmat suit?
Anyone who lives up north and freaks out about "contaminated" oil, from the oil pan, getting into the output side of their filter, obviously has no idea how often their oil filter bypasses in cold weather.
They should do real time cut away, or clear filter tests, to show how that really works..
Load,
Temp,
R.P.M.
that would be really interesting.
@@alansand7116 It would be interesting to see but it also depends on the winter rating of the oil. So they'd have to test with multiple different oils like 0W, 5W etc.
Very true. And, the higher the rpm, the greater the likely hood the filter is on bypass. Good reason to run synthetic and low winter startup viscosity. Warmup before driving can be good in this scenario though depending on various factors.
I have literally cringed cranking over my car a couple of times. I know it was likely not much additional damage than any other start but -35C is damn cold. You're like 'please start'
Bypass valve spec of my cars OEM oil filter is 24 psi. Fram is 10-15 psi. Needless to say a lot of oil bypasses the filter regardless. Moderate acceleration and I see 40 psi on the gauge.
My grandfather was an incredible mechanic whose brother designed engines with Kohler as their chief engineer. He basically said all the same things you did. I particularly remember him shaking his head at truck drivers who would warm up their vehicles - he always said, just get in and drive to get the temps up as fast as possible (but not driving it hard). I’m glad to hear someone substantiating what he had told us.
I don't trust ANYONE who worked for kohler, they need to stick with making faucets and toilets.
You are required to warm up TURBO Diesel Engines
Cummings Turbo Diesel - you need to warm up the Turbo
I'll take the Engineers who designed the Cummings Turbo Diesel word over your father's
At -40f >>i would say no warm it up
those are iron blocks and heads, big difference to todays engines
Is that even the same company? @@Daniel-qe8qe I'm asking, cause I really don't know.
20 yrs as a professional mechanic. This is one of the few videos that can porperly teach you something.
Glad you got something out of it brother 👍
I had a Chevy 350 engine I rebuilt in 1993. I put 367k miles on that engine over around 17 years. It ran perfectly fine, I simply pulled it out for mileage. On the post mortem teardown, I discovered the main bearings and rod bearings were all worn down into the copper. Engine ran fine and had decent oil pressure, 25 psi at idle after driving in the Phoenix, AZ summer heat. I prefilled half the time and didn't prefill the other half.
That's a great engine story, I got a long one too but not nearly as good, but that some will find interesting anyway.
I had a 1988 Nissan Z24 4 cyl. Back around year 2,000 when this truck had about 180,000 it finally needed a valve job so I decided to do an in-car overhaul on this engine while I had teh cylinder head off anyway.
I maintained this truck pretty well, and I did oil changes every 3,000 miles. And the most interesting part to me was, I saw for myself how little internal wear happens when you change your oil so often. Timing chain and gears were like new, only the plastic chain tensioner part was worn out. The engine had no tell-tale cylinder wear ridges, as you often see in poorly maintained engines; I had even bought a cylinder-ridge-reamer tool beforehand but found I had no need for it. Removing the oil pan showed the oil pump pickup and oil pan were clean as new. And overall there was no trace of sludge or varnish anywhere inside the engine.
None of the piston rings were sticking, all the rings were still free to move, and the baked-on deposits you often find in the ring grooves were barely there. I never touched the main bearings since there was no need to. And since the connecting rod bearings looked fine too, I didn't do anything except coat them in assembly lube and reinstalled them in their original locations untouched (naturally I had marked which bearings came from which cylinder beforehand). The only thing I did was hone the cylinders with the tool, and change the rings for new ones before pre-lubing everything and putting it all back together. I drove the truck for another 4 years.
But finally I had to take it in for the dumb biennial Calif smog check. And despite the engine still running perfectly, it wouldn't idle low enough, instead of the 800 rpm specified that the smog machine needed to see it would only idle at 1,000. So the remorseless car-killing smog-check machine declined to pass it, no matter what adjustments, cleaning, etc. I tried on it.
But the keep-it--or-dump-it decision was now forced: either junk the Nissan, or spend 4 figures in repairs on a 15 year old truck with 200,000 miles. My bank account won, since by then I already had a second car (2002 Camry V6) that I was making payments on.
I guess the point of the story is that even if you pamper, baby, and over-maintain your engine, the rest of the car keeps wearing out too! And a "Last straw"-type issue that finally forces an owner to get rid of a car, will seldom be caused by internal engine wear anyway.
Arizona mild to very hot weather helps avoid colder (sub zero f) starts
We once had a “52 Dodge two wheel drive pickup with a flathead engine. The oil pressure was falling in the “60s and I asked dad why we didn’t pull it for a rebuild. “Too many jobs to do” ( farm tiling which is very seasonal.) What I did not know is that he had a hankering for a new 4WD and with a busted pickup there would be less opposition from mom. Anyway I watched the oil pressure go from 30 psi to 20, then 10, then 5. Finally the needle did not move. It ran for another two weeks and then stopped for the last time and became a brick. There: bearing failure, it happens, but we were too busy pulling the tile cart in the muddy fields with our Grand Sierra GMC fresh from the dealer: 350 Automatic, high and low gear, 4 wheel drive, 411 gears, radio, new and nice. Mom did not like because it was too high to step into. Maybe that was also part of the plan too. So bearing failure can happen, if you plan correctly.
I laughed and laughed! Country boy ingenuity!
My first truck was a 52 Dodge. Modern oils meant I never had a bearing wear failure
This ‘52 was old enough that a steering link popped off and we drove into the ditch. We snapped it back on the ball and with a couple of wraps of bailing wire we were off again. Since the odometer had failed several years previous we could only guess at the total miles. It’s important to remember that cars in this period could require a valve job at 40,000 miles especially on dusty country roads when oil filters were aftermarket accessories.
@@cadewey6181 I do remember but mine had a bypass oil filter. Like I said modern oils made all the difference. I got 260 thousand and some change out of mine before it pulled a wrist pin bushing.
What I mean by modern oils is I run Rotella in everything I have and I got my drivers license in 2011
Edit punctuation
This guy is awesome, he is funny and does decent science
I saw The Oil Geek's video on prefilling oil filters and it showed how long an engine can go without oil pressure and I was convinced it is the thing to do! So ever since I bought my new car I've prefilled the filter. But in all honesty before seeing that video I never prefilled an oil filter and I've been changing my own oil for 30+ years!
I've ran two vehicles above 200,000 miles and another to 150,000 miles. I had only one oil burner and never had an oil related breakdown. The only oil burner was my first used car and it was burning before I owned it.
I will probably continue prefilling but in lieu of this video I'll be extra careful about getting packaging foil into the new filter or introducing any other contaminants from the rim of the oil bottle. Point well made on that! 😉
Machinist here. When the block is cold the cylinder bores are ~.005-.010" smaller than when at operating temp(bore diameter dependent). So, while the engine is warming up the fit between the piston and rings to the cylinder wall is much tighter, and therefore will wear more during each stroke. I've always been told to drive gently until at operating temp, I guess I'll keep doing that.
This is the crux of it. Comes down to the difference in coefficient of expansion of aluminum vs steel. The piston will heat up and expand in diameter before the cylinder catches up. In tech school it was taught the need to warm up the engine partially prior to applying load or high cylinder pressure.
Actually the pistons fit tighter in a warm engine because the thermal expansion rate of aluminum (piston) is greater the iron (cylinder).
It depends on whether the block is made of gray cast iron or aluminum. With aluminum pistons in an aluminum block, a change in temperature will have no effect on the running clearance in the cylinder bore.
Get this, they run hot coolant through F1 engines before use because it’s locked up when cold. Tolerance the thought!
…I’ll show myself out…
Per research an engine wears the most at the piston/ cylinder before reaching operating temperature, not the main or cam bearings.
“Honey, he’s changed 37 oil filters in a row, is there a number we should call? I think he needs help.”
- some concerned neighbor
1-800-BEER
@@freedomworx1-800-MOR-BEER*
This was one of the most informative videos regarding engine wear I have seen on YT. Most videos only focus on oil viscosity and definitely don't show the science. Subscribed.
I am a fan of BOTH Lake Speed, Jr and FreedomWorx. Both have something to contribute to the very esoteric world of engines, lubricants, and wear. The SAE data regarding piston ring wear is pretty compelling, and I think the evidence to support that wear is inversely related to coolant temperature below operating level is solid. Merging FreedomWerx's conclusions with Lake's looks like this:
1. Start, immediately drive gently until operating temperature, and then run normally.
2, To avoid contamination and ensure the optimum oil/metal interface, use the right oil and change it regularly
3. Use the appropriate oil WITHOUT aftermarket additives that disturb the additive package.
Great work on this video!! As we used to say in Naval Aviation, BRAVO ZULU!
Esoteric world of engines... Adeptus Mechanicus chanting intensifies...
Great video. I appreciate you calling people out for claiming that no oil pressure causes bearing wear. Oil pressure isn’t what protects journal bearings, it’s hydrodynamic film. Oil pressure simply supplies new oil to the bearing. I’m sure there’s a point at which no oil pressure does allow wear but it’s far greater than 4 seconds.
One factor that this video doesn’t consider however is how low tension piston rings (which are in almost all modern gas engines now) would change the results found in the cited case studies.
That being said, you mentioned that the reason for engine end of life is cylinder wall and piston ring wear. This assumes the engine was well-maintained and at that point we’re talking service of over 500,000 miles assuming the engine wasn’t driven 2 miles per heat cycle. A bigger issue (and arguably out of scope for what you were doing here) is oxidation. Carbon, coking, sludge deposits and causing piston rings to stick are a far more common occurrence causing engines to burn oil. Oxidation stability is critical.
All this being said, I’m now wondering if something like AMSOIL’s upper cylinder lubricant would be of any tangible benefit to alleviating piston ring and cylinder wall wear during warm up, but that’s another discussion for another day.
Bearing wear doesn't kill engines
Introduce Subaru engines
Ther's always exceptions 🤷♂️
@@300zxturbo even the old ones had sideways mounted filters.
@@300zxturbo Call that an engineer failure
@@xenn4985no they didn’t lol
@@Shane.C uh, yes they did? Im under one right now...
Motor oil geek always talks about science in his videos, but never actually does any science and when he does theres usually no control or serious flaws in how he does it. This is probably the only video I've seen where somebody has done any real science on the issue.
Yeah, but hey, he's Certified!😂. I'm just an engineer...
A few of his videos I liked, but the way he goes over his data sometimes seems hard to follow accurately to me. He also has a unique way of trying really hard to make oil testing seem exciting, yet making it as boring as possible 😂
He does provide some good insights and data. But he also doesn’t always live up to his motto of “Science not Speculation.” Everyone makes mistakes though. And I don’t think he is trying to deceive anyone, I think he was just blinded by bias on this topic.
You'd think the geek was paid by one or more of the oil companies
"Never actually does... when he does" ??
My only complaint about your videos…..NOT NEARLY ENOUGH OF THEM!! You are one of my favorites brother
What about all the filters that mount on their sides ……. GM, Dodge, Nissan or even upside down ….John Deere tractor?
All filling arguments are dead which ever way you go!!
I’m trying brother. Full time husband, dad, engineer…part time RUclips Certified Mechanic 🤓
@@freedomworxI’ve understood the excessive wear from cold rings and cylinder. I own a brand new F350 with the 7.3 Godzilla and from break in to current I add Amsoil upper cylinder lubricant every tank. I add it for the express purpose of reducing wear on the rings at startup and during warm up. I’d like your thoughts and engineering mind to let me know if I’m up a tree and punching at the air. I feel good about it but you know….science and bacon.
@@freedomworx You do your thing brother, life comes first, youtube 2nd. You will be worth the wait.
@@freedomworx +1 sub
Nice to see someone having a bit of fun, I was in the, it doesn't matter camp, but enjoyed your presentation. I am also in the it doesn't matter what brand of filter or oil you choose as long as it's the proper oil for your application camp, many years ago I read an article about taxis and the trend was the same there, many hundreds of thousand miles on those vehicles without issues, the common theme they were always at operating temperature as well.
Manhole covers are round because if they were square they could fall into the manhole. But being round, they can't.
Technically a square manhole cover would work just fine and not fall in, as long as it is ~44% larger than the diagonal of the opening. For an 18in square opening the cover would need to be about 26in and it wouldn't be able to fall in. For an 18in round opening, you would need say a 20in manhole cover. That works out to be about 50% less area. So the real answer is that you need half the material to make a round opening of a similar sized square opening.
@@wojtek-33you can make a sguare hole smaller and a round hole smaller just taper the opening inwards from top to bottom just like a set of well rings lid is done
Or just make them round and be done?
@@Rotorcycle they can be my shape done my way.
That and...If you put a load in the middle of a square manhole cover the stress is going to be that of a round cover with the load on the middle of each of the sides. Imagine the sides being loaded and the corners of the cover lifting up. So the square cover will have extra unnecessary material at the corners.
Important point here is that from the moment my engine is stopped to drain the oil, to the moment I start it back up to after an oil and filter change at most 30 minutes passes (because I need to get the car off the ramps to put them away). There will still be an oil film on all surfaces when I crank it over.
You could do that a week later and there'd still be plenty wet with oil to lube for the 15-20 revolutions at basically no load before pumped pressure takes over.
Exactly. Imagine how quickly a quick lube place changes your oil after shutting down the engine. It's only a few minutes. Prefilling an oil filter has ZERO benefit in those situations.
@@benjurqunov 15 to 20 revolutions ? 2000 rpm, 4 seconds to fill, 2000 divided by 60 equals 33 revolutions per second, times 4, is 133 revolutions, not 15 to 20.
ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE mr short shrift
Yes but the first cylinder compression cycle is going to squeegee the oil off the cylinders from the piston rings. So there might be a few seconds where the only liquid in the cylinder is just gasoline and thus mostly metal-to-metal contact.
@@shakdidagalimal
What kind of fugging idiot revs a motor 2k upon startup ?
Hot Damn!!! There are still people out there that have a brain. I like your style just as much as your sense of humor, and I forking love that. I started my mechanical career in 1959 at 9 years old, trying to keep a $209.95- , Sears and Roebucks 2 seater go-kart running. Been well lubricated with motor oil ever since (beer started at 13). Joined the USN in 1968 and became an engineman on Diesel submarines but while in A school we went on a field trip up to Milwaukie, Wis. to a railroad engine overhaul shop. They were overhauling an EMD 567 in a yard donkey that had been running virtually continuously for 5 years since new. It had 2 separate oil supply sumps so wasn't shut off for oil changes. Over 40,000 hrs and the bearings were all in spec., and you could still see the crosshatching in the cylinder walls. They rough honed the cylinder walls and threw in a new set of piston rings, thinking maybe another 25,000 or so hrs. I was always told that starting and stopping was what caused the most wear on a reciprocating engine. I also agree that temperature can be a killer...living in Alaska like I do🥶. I been told that Lady farts weigh less than Man farts....think there's any truth to that?🤣
Hell of an effort, bud. Nice job on the video, and thanks for this.
Also, thanks for being yourself and not trying to be another vice grip garage.
no need to hate on Derek. he's a cool dude.
I usually skip to the end for videos like this, but you are too entertaining to do that.
I appreciate that! Thanks for watching 👍
Nope not true
Man, I was just about to type that and here you gone beat me to that fact!
@@freedomworx Great video, how much does block heaters help. My cummins is at 100 degrees each morning thanks to my block heater. I have it connected to a kasa smart plug that turns on 2 hours before I leave in the morning.
@@freedomworxyou say it’s best to run it seconds after you start it to get the heat up quicker but wouldn’t running it at higher rpm load cold be worse than letting it warm up at low rpm?
Finally a good scientific explanation of what I’ve been telling people for years. Start the engine, wait a few seconds, drive gently until operating temp at least. Don’t start and let it idle for 10-20 minutes every morning. Also, my Honda has a horizontal filter so I can’t prefill it. 5K mile OCI’s for over 300k miles with Mobil1 0w-30. Engine is all original and has nearly 400k miles on it now, and the UOA reports are still coming back good, so I think I’m doing okay with it. I have 4 cars currently, 2 with horizontal filters and 2 with vertical filters. Never prefill any of them.
Do you use the 0w-30 AFE or ESP? Just curious.
My Merc has the vertical cartridge filters. The filter is up at the top of the engine. No pre-filling those. I've owned a few of them since my first 2004 model and never had any problems. They use 0W-40.
@@d47000 I’ve been using the M1 AFE since the mid 2000’s, which I think is when they first came out with it.
I had a friend that owned a 95 Prelude since it was new. He drove that car until last year when he passed away. Had half a million miles on it with just regular oil changes with synthetic and basic maintenance. Nothing special. Honda really knew how to make a great long lasting engine.
also Ricardo, known for building some of the most successful race engines in the world and the Mclaren M838/840 series (derived from the Nissan VR8), also uses a vertically mounted oil filter at the top of the engine. Granted this is a dry sump system but if oil starvation was a real issue I would assume they would have mounted the oil filter so that it wouldn't drain whenever the engine wasn't running, particularly since they equipped these cars with stop/start for fuel economy......which I always disable because stop/start sucks
They've been recommending that style of driving for decades. I think I first read about how to perform cold starts correctly in the '80s.
I have always filled mostly because it reminds me to lube the gasket, but also because I figure it can't hurt. You have a far greater chance of introducing contaminants when filling the block than by filling the filter. My wrenching days are pretty much over, but subbed anyway because of your humor/thoroughness/editing. Just an all-a-round great vid. Happy New Year!
Came for the science, stayed for the bacon. 30 seconds in and I smashed the subscribe button.
When it came to race engines that I’ve had the pleasure to touch over the years (IMSA, HSR, Grand Am, historic F1, SCCA) cranking the engine for oil pressure before firing was always what we were taught. On some of the engines we would have to pre warm oil and coolant before even firing the engine. To each their own. But the number one killer of engines was driver error. Money shifts or missed gears sending the revs past recommended red line was always the fastest way to make internal engine components part of the space program.
Thanks for watching. I think a few things to keep in mind with race engines. They generally run much more viscous oils, sometimes mono-grade (SAE50, SAE60, etc…) so they don’t flow well until very warm. They also have much higher valvetrain pressures. Both of those lend themselves to pre-oiling or priming before firing. And pre-heating is sometimes required to achieve adequate oil clearance on bearing journals. Aluminum blocks grow a lot more than iron blocks, so you have to make the oil clearances very tight at ambient temps, to ensure they are not too loose at operating temp. Sometimes too tight to rotate the engine without pre-heating it first. 👍
@ you know your stuff. Before they started removing shop classes in my state in the 90s, people like you that teach with examples are the reason that kids loved to take these classes.
I've always just filled the engine until the dipstick says full, go start the car let it run for 3-4 seconds, shut it off and go check the dipstick to make sure the level dropped, then top it off and then secure the oil cap and check for leaks. Never had a problem in 20 years.
Waist of time. I throw in what the manual says and send it. I never pull the dipstick except when the car is new to make sure it doesn’t burn any oil.
@@user-tb7rn1il3qwaste*** And no you always have to double check the dipstick after you start the engine
@@user-tb7rn1il3q you must be a real busy guy if you can't spare 30 seconds when you're already doing the oil change...??
@@BillLouis-b7c It's pointless. Of course the oil level will drop, unless your oil pump happened to fail while you were changing the oil.
@BillLouis-b7c but if you know the car takes 6 quarts at a change, and you pour in 6 quarts during a change, why check it?
every time you explain something that brings questions to mind, you immideately follow up with answers to those questions and by theend of the video i have no questions left. never had this experience with any other youtuber. well done.
If I were your neighbor, I would never get mad at how many times you started up your engine. Plus, I'd volunteer with the science projects.
I appreciate it. But to be honest, most of my neighbors actually like my toys. But there is always a Karen in the bunch 😉
A guy could only be so lucky.
Loved the detail on this. Funny this supports what my grandfather taught me about the additive sales men and the " one arm bandit friction test" they like to use as a demo. They would drop any oil on and load the arm up fast, no time to heat up the oil. Then with there product they keep a hand on the level giving a light load as they talked to heat it up then load it producing much less wear. Gramps always said the oil temp meant more than anything. Something in it doesn't work until it hot. Looks like he was right. And he was a prefill the filter kind of mechanic. I turned out to be a "if its convenient fill it" kind mechanic.
Yes, I prefill my filters. Does it matter? Probably not. Best part of this video is the part about wear from cold starts. Provides that much more confirmation that spending $13,500 on a Green APU for my Peterbilt was a great idea. Fuel savings alone pays that off in around 2 to 2-1/2 years. And in the morning when I crank it up, my coolant temperature is between 100 - 160 degrees depending on outside temperature. I bump up the idle to build air pressure and finish my pretrip so it idles 10 - 15 minutes. I had it rebuilt right after I bought it with 972K on the odometer. All the bearings looked real good, and the sleeves all still showed the cross hatching. The truck used or burned no oil but I wanted to start off with a fresh rebuild so it will last me until I retire.
I can remember riding with my Grandad as a kid in his Pete 362. We’d idle that thing all night while we were in the sleeper. Of course, diesel was $0.74 back then. Nobody knew about no APU 😂
A $1000 Webasto Thermo Top EVO would do the same thing, just installed one on my KW and it’s worth its weight in gold. Fire it up for two-three hours and the coolant temp is at 110-120 degrees and oil at 80-90. All that in -10F degrees ambient temperature.
Thank you for your input! I have 2 old school DD 60 series in my semi's. I do oil samples 3 or more times a year. I use 15w-40 oil and have been told i can up to 20k intervals. People dont understand, as long as contaminants are low.... sulfur, metals etc, and viscosity is still good, you can go longer intervals. I'll take numbers over "ive always"......
Also, we high idle our semis to keep the cylinders at operating temps to keep the fuel burning. Unburned fuel in the cylinders will wash out the oil in the cylinders. When possible I always plug in my truck when temps are cold. Doesnt have to be overnight. Just a few hours. I do the same for my F250 with a 7.3 and my 98 Suburban with a 6.5. Keep em warm, cut out idling and keep oil clean.
Most entertaining video I've watched all day. The most useful information was in the last ten minutes. Every engine I've ever torn down has had one or two rod bearings that were worn, or scarred, considerably more than the others. Some of them always look pretty good. I always wondered about that, as they all had the same amount of the same oil on them. Thumbs up for rifles in the background. Two thumbs up for Dillon Precision reloaders. I like the can in your hand, too. Not the oil cans. The suppressor. I'm 63 years old. Getting down on the ground and getting back up is hard on my back and my knees. But I still love being under a vehicle. Especially a truck with enough ground clearance that I don't need to jack it. You are far more entertaining and less annoying than the Motor Oil Geek. I only suffered through his videos because I love motor oil tests. I've done some of my own tests. Mostly just to see how they react to heat and cold. From the very best oils to the very cheapest oils, both synthetic and conventional, and blends, the difference in the way they flow at -15 degrees Fahrenheit is minimal. Then, just about two minutes at room temperature, and they flow normally again. Add a little heat to the oils, and they all turn thin as water. I could see no difference at all, visually. But there probably was some. Manhole covers are round so the lid can't fall into the hole. Happy New Year, Sir.
Project Farm does some videos you'd love.
@@nikkolaus Thanks. I've seen some of his videos and yes, I like them.
Nice vid!
Who knew, my daily commute activity is almost ideal. I typically start my vehicle and in less than a minute I'm idling out of my driveway and out of my neighborhood. Speed then picks up a little as I go through our small community, and after about 2 minutes from startup, I'm kicking it up to 70 mph for the next 3 minutes until I arrive at work.
Wow Burnt, you're on fire! 🔥 I'm so happy you sobered up and quit comedy for this, much better!
Much love from Houston where the engines are practically at operating temperature year round. Thank you for doing this test and providing the summary on the SAE docs, the effort is appreciated 👍
I appreciate the support. I'm glad you got something from it 😎. Sincerely... Burnt Chrysler
@@freedomworx texan?? so what is your state bird?
@@freedomworxgot to do one without a shirt on.
I'd say floods and hurricanes kill more cars in Houston than engine wear or rust lol
Came to the comments for this, was not disappointed.
Only example of the oil pump failing to prime with an oil filter (it's a mesh screen, not a spin on type, but whatever) change is my Continental A65 aircraft engine. As for dry start damage, I've started her a half dozen times after oil change/screen clean with zero oil pressure, where it runs for at least 10 seconds before I can check the oil gauge. I have to hand prop her since there's no electric system or starter and it takes that long after propping her to get around the wing to check the gauge. Anyway, she was made in the 40's and only rebuilt in 1976. After many zero oil pressure starts, there's still no measurable damage from them. You are right in saying there's still a film of oil on the parts even after sitting for a long time. It's when there's no pressure during power runs that the catastrophic damage happens.
Did you just point bacon at me….??
Subscribed..
Damn right I did. Then I ate that sumbitch 😎👍
@ well I was trying to go to sleep. Now I’m in my kitchen..
It’s a teaser. 😮
My first thought to this is that there is simply not enough beer for me to complete this. The second thought was I would be trashed after realizing my first thought was wrong and 15 beers in after a half hour. Appreciate your odd amount of patience to put up with this test.
I read Bob Sikorsky's book "Drive it Forever" about 15 years ago and he shared the same information about operating temperature and engine life. His recommendation, and I should've done this, was add heaters to your engine block and coolant system to keep the engine at constant operating temperature. That way when you jump in to start it the system is practically always at operating temperature. However here's another study for ya, how much power will you use to keep the engine always at operating temperature? Add that up over the years and see if that equates to a an engine rebuild/replacement.
After restoring a reliable vehicle from the ground up, I found you're likely to get into a vehicle totaling accident before you have to go through another major maintenance cycle anyway. When you're on the public highways it seems inevitable that idiots will find, and mess with your happiness, and Insurance companies don't care how much you spent restoring a vehicle, you know to keep from buying some questionable new junk.
I am totally fine with a few dollars per year going into keeping my garage above 50 degrees instead of potentially rebuilding an engine (when 90% of mechanics would screw it up anyway), but you're right about never knowing if your car will last that long for other reasons. My Toyota will most likely succumb to rust long before the engine fails. For the garage, obviously that's not operating temp for the engine, but it's going to be a lot easier on the car than the 10 degrees outside.
@@mediocreman2 A warm garage melting salty snow will accelerate rusting or so I've been told.
@@kylemacintoshlinux1449 Oh boy, we're going to need testing for this now..... And of course the decison will need to be made: is accelerated rust better to deal with or accelerated engine wear? I'll take engine wear everday.
Bob also recommended #Slick 50: The original formula not the new one.
🙂 #XcelPlus
@@mediocreman2 There are other considerations though. Air inside your garage at 50F holds a way more water than cold air outside (if it's an attached garage of course), so when you drive out some parts (like chassis) will get condensate, some in the places where water would never get into during normal driving. Needless to say water and steel are not friends.
The area I'd expect more wear with dry filters is in the head, the valves and the cam in overhead cam engines. The crankshaft bearings are just over the oil sump and oil gets splashed around as the crankshaft turns. So long as you have sufficient oil in the sump the crank bearings will be lubricated. But you need oil pressure to get oil up into the head and that's where I'd expect a dry filter to result in more wear. But, only by a little. Slick 50 has demonstrated that there is sufficient oil left behind when an engine has shut off and drains into the sump that the residual oil keeps the bearings lubricated long enough for the pressure to build up. Every day the first start of the engine will have to rely on residual oil to lubricate the engine until the pressure builds up, a dry filter only results in a few extra seconds of that. To me the most important thing is to not rev the engine or put a load on it until the oil is pressurized. Let the engine idle for 10 or 15 seconds after starting to insure proper oil protection before operating the vehicle.
You think that oil gets "splashed around" by the crankshaft?
If that would happen, you will have a milkshake in the engine, with that much aeration. There is a reason why we have a level for the oil fill...
Oil needs to get UNDER PRESSURE between the crank and piston bearings. Not just "splashed on the outside.
Ever heard of splash lubrication? 🤓
@@SorinNicu I know it does, look for videos of running engines. Do you have any clue at all how engines with unpressurized lubricating engines work? Clearly you don't. I love how willingly clueless people like to out themselves.
Yeah, the oil is sucked up through the sump and pumped through the galleries. It's filtered on the way back to the sump or reservoir. Why does it need to be prefilled?
@@KyleReese-vt8bo It is filtered BEFORE the circuit. Until it fills the oil filter... nothing it goes up that way. But the crankshaft is rotating. Dry.
I can’t for the life of me get the average forum lurking knuckle dragger to understand that use case determines what kind of oil change intervals one can get away with. If you do a dozen 2 mile trips a day, your engine isn’t gonna last, don’t care what oil or intervals you use but you’d better change it often.
If you’re starting it once a day and driving 600 miles and you live in a hot climate, you could likely get away with 10k mile intervals however there are plenty of other factors to consider.
Ultimately, cold starts kill machines.
I get by with 10K intervals in Georgia just fine. Just someone else in Georgia might need it every 5K. It's application specific 👍
I do 5k intervals on the 7.3 powerstroke. Haven't had a chance to rebuild it, It's sitting at around 334k miles.
@@freedomworx I change my oil ONCE per YEAR. Every January, I change the oil. I put about 3000-5000 miles per year on my Raptor. I use a Fram fully synthetic oil filter. I used to use Penzoil Ultimate synthetic, but recently switched to Supertec Advance full synthetic.
@tensecondtwoii4182 you need to drive more.... i put 5000 miles on in 6 weeks
Not to mention but warming the engine for 3-4mins that helps as well.
Engines + Bacon = Instant subscribe. A little bit country and a little bit science… I like your style. Greetings from a Californian CAT mechanic
I appreciate the Sub. Praying for you guys. Hopefully you are far from the fires👍
I’m a science, engineering, and education focused guy. You’re testing methodology was good value given the cost of materials. However your analysis of the results was amazing, you’ve done a perfect job of presenting your results and referencing other research papers to back up your claims. This is a very badass example of science communication.
Your “big picture” moment at the end of the video snapped me back to reality. As you said, “[bearings don’t cause engine failure]” we often forget that we shouldn’t place too much value on a single test if there’s something much more appropriate to worry about such as cylinder wear.
And good job of being complete in your video by offering a solution to reducing wear; drive up to operating temperature as well as one reasonably can without placing too much load on the engine.
I’m glad you enjoyed it. I thought it was the best way to address the topic. Thanks for watching 👍😎
Super grateful for your work here. Your comments on cold starts have confirmed my suspicions that cold starts are worse for engine wear than anything else. That’s why I personally try to avoid them as much as possible.
1) I don’t start my summer vehicles in the winter to “exercise them”
2) I consolidate chores to avoid separate cold starts.
It’s obsessive yes, but cars are expensive.
If you walk instead of driving short trips then your car benefits and so does your health! And a bit less pollution too.
If only right? Where I live in America, there’s no sidewalks!
Yes any engine that sits over winter, just leave it be, especially in frigid temps. Unless you can drive/ run it enough to get it to full temp for like a half hour 20 miles or so to cook off any condensate moisture.
If you're worried about cold starts, please just park your car and never drive it again.
Absolutely ridiculous.
Love your style of content and the humor. Keep up the awesome vids.
I appreciate that! Thanks for watching 👍
This is a great explanation of why diagnosing the DTCs
P0125 ( Insufficient Coolant Temperature For Closed Loop Fuel Control)
OR
P0128 (Coolant Temperature Below Thermostat Regulating Temperature)
is so important to get corrected to ensure engine longevity.
The thermostat monitor is designed to verify correct thermostat operation. This monitor is executed once per drive cycle and
has a monitor run duration of 300-800 seconds. If a concern is present, DTC P0125 or P0128 is set and the malfunction
indicator lamp (MIL) is illuminated.
A timer is initialized while the engine is at moderate load and the vehicle speed is above a calibrated limit. The target timer
value is based on ambient air temperature at startup. If the timer exceeds the target time and engine coolant temperature or
cylinder head temperature has not warmed up to the target temperature, a concern is indicated. The test runs if the startup
intake air temperature from the intake air temperature (IAT) sensor is at or below the target temperature. A 2 hour engine OFF
soak time is also required to enable the monitor and to prevent erasing of any pending DTCs during a hot soak. This soak time
feature also prevents false passes of the monitor when the engine coolant temperature rises after the engine is turned OFF
during a short engine OFF soak period.
The target temperature is calibrated to within 11°C (20°F) less than the thermostat regulating temperature. For a typical 90°C
(195°F) thermostat, the target temperature would be calibrated to 79°C (175°F). Some vehicle calibrations may lower the target
temperature to less than 27°C (50°F) for vehicles that do not warm-up to thermostat regulating temperatures in the 11°C (20°F)
to 27°C (50°F) ambient temperature range.
With all the misinformation out there, it’s so nice to see this. The world needs more people like you!
I appreciate it. Thanks for the sub 👍
@@freedomworx Thanks for the reply! I’m an engineering student, and this is exactly how we approach lab experiments-controlling variables, ensuring an adequate sample size, minimizing external influences, and maintaining consistency in procedures. Since you’ve used all these methods, your results should be spot on! I loved this video, man. You have no idea how happy it makes me to see someone actually putting in the work to prove something with solid science, instead of just saying 'trust me, bro,' with their only source being their own imagination
Just idling is a waste of fuel, but in the winter you first start the engine while you get the ice and snow off the windows. If the car don't start you don't have to waste time on clearing the windows. And you'll get a bit of heat enough for the defroster to start working.
Then drive smoothly until the engine is reasonably warm.
One factor that wasn't in here is that too quick heating of the engine could result in a blown headgasket and other similar unwanted events caused by temperature stress in the engine.
Now do a video on if it's worth it to have a break-in period of a new vehicle. I think it's worth it.
I never filled an oil filter ever. 219k miles on my 2010 pilot. Runs puuuurrrrfect. I've been working cars with my dad since I was a kid. I was a Honda mechanic also.
I love those v6 pilots! Currently searching for a 3.5 manual accord
First time watcher, first time caller here... Terrific piece of work, great presentation, and I learned something... 70μg :)
Thanks for watching. The more you know 😂👍
very cool. I have been prefilling for years and probably would not stop because it has worked for me so far, but finally someone with a little bit of scientific testing !
I promise you’ll get something out of this video 👍
Motor Oil Geek (an actual Tribologist) did much more extensive testing.
@@craigfin3222 you call that extensive testing??? 😆😆 Me...an actual engineer, giving you actual science. Might want to watch the video before you start pimping your man crush!
@@craigfin3222 BTW, you pay $650 and take a test to become a Tribologist. Try to become an engineer with $650 and one test... Give me 3 days to study and I could be a Certified Lubrication Specialist 😆
@@freedomworx i would trust you more if you were a "certified" for sure
The real TRUTH is that no premature engine failure has EVER been linked to not prefilling the oil filter.
It's voodoo is what it is as long as you change your filters and oil you'll be fine
Or not pre filling!
@@owenhill-vf7koyou said the same thing he did. And to you Michael, you’re not going to be able to trace something back like that. Prefilling, or not prefilling, will not destroy your engine in one go. That’s the point of this entire argument, if it was that easy to tell, one way or the other would be in the big fancy rule book of mechanic musts
Because it's not about the engine, but it's about the turbocharger.
@@Dexian-j9m oh yea! because every engine has one of those
I started and ended this video in the “it doesn’t make a difference. If it did people, way smarter than me wouldn’t be designing engine with the filter positioned upside-down or horizontal & manufactures would make it a point.” camp.
This video was fantastic. I'm sharing it with all my car buddies. Thank you for being both entertaining and informative
Glad you enjoyed it! I sense an argument in your future 😂
This has to be the best oil science video I've ever seen.. I'm serious I'm not even kidding. Love it !
Thanks for the kind words! 😎 You should go watch my By-Pass Filter video. Even if you don't care about By-Pass Filtration, it has lots of good nuggets about engine lubrication in it. ruclips.net/video/qPXsCG-C-JY/видео.html
So I guess those engine block heaters might actually be worth their weight in gold..? 😅
Been building and maintaining V8's for decades, mostly hemi's in the last twenty or so. I always fill the oil filter before firing it up. Letting the engine come up to temp before driving (when possible) is also a good practice- hemi's often "tick" before coming to temp. Thanks for the vid!
Yes! Most wear occurs on the rings and cylinders. And most wear is caused at start-up. Running an engine cold is the worst. The best thing you can do is warm your engine the fastest. A block heater in winter, and driving the vehicle to warm it, is the fastest and best way to warm it. The WORST way to warm it is to install a remote engine starter and let it sit idling in your driveway.
Yes, evidence and science trumps all opinions.
Also, short commutes when the engine is cold allows unburned fuel, moisture and combustion by-products to accumulate. The oil takes significantly longer than the coolant to reach full operating temperature, especially during winter months. If you don't take periodic extended highway runs, where the oil reaches operating temperature long enough to heat and evaporate off these contaminants, they WILL accumulate and degrade the oil's lubricating properties, causing premature wear, and sludge to build up that restricts oil flow. This essentially is Severe Service, which requires more frequent oil changes than what the OEM recommends. (Many OEM owner's manuals discuss Severe Service and recommend oil changes at half the normal distance.)
Good job on this video...!
You know your stuff👍
Thanks for the insight into why short journeys require a shorter oil change interval - I'd always wondered.
Yes drive your engine cold that's good for it.
Make sure you floor it when you get on the expressway while the needle still on cold 😂
Good. Hopefully my jagoff next door neighbor who idles his engine for 45-60 minutes every damn night at 1:30 before finally leaving will have it seize soon.
@@thewiseguy3529 Sorry, but actual demonstrated evidence, as in the study referenced in the vid, always trumps mere opinion and old wives tales...
Modern oils are designed to flow in cold start-ups. That's what the W means in an oil's viscosity rating of say 5W30. And no one advised to floor it or drive on the expressway. You're supposed to keep moderate load on the engine until it warms. Since it's been demonstrated most wear occurs in a cold engine, the point is it will warm significantly faster by driving it at a moderate speed, than sitting idling in your driveway...
My friend always pre-filled his filters, then drove his top-of-the-line Honda at 4000 rpm everywhere he went, except the interstate. Around town was always 2nd gear or 3rd.
I had a POS Pontiac, never pre filled filters, and always drove at about 1200 to 1500 rpm, even used 5th (top) gear around town.
At 133,000 miles his Honda desperately needed rings and a hone job because it used a quart of oil every five minutes.
My Pontiac also had 133,000 miles, and it never burned a drop. So, I bought a compression test kit and found the cylinders were 133, 136, 136, and 139. The shop manual said do a hone job at something like 96 psi, or if any one cylinder was 25 psi less than the other three. Basically, my engine was in mint condition.
BTW we both used Mobil 1 synthetic.
BTW, my friend said the engine didn't make proper oil pressure until 4000 rpm. I later told him that the idle speed is determined by the point at which the oil pressure regulator starts bleeding off pressure, which is where it's making proper pressure.
Yes, he has had many concussions when crashing, even knocked himself out a few times. Me? Never, I always protected my head and neck with my arms. He and most racers use their heads to break their fall.
1000% correct about why engines fail. Finally someone else saying it 👊looks like Dave’s auto center was correct about cold starting an engine let it idle for a few seconds and go. Proved all the haters wrong. They won’t admit defeat tho. Because they know it all. Cousins brothers uncles cat told them so and he’s a mechanic.
Dave's Auto Center also says to change your oil every 3,000 miles to maintain your warranty on their engines... They lost me when they said that. Not sure if he believes that is actually needed, or if that is just a loophole for them to get out of warrantying their engines.
@@freedomworx I think it's probably because, and I say this from turning wrenches for years too, most common people straight up don't keep up with their oil even a little, they don't care. They hear 5 or 6 thousand and think what's a few more thousand, and the next thing you know I'm swapping out a 120,000 mile engine that's had probably 10 oil changes in its life, 6 of those with no oil left to drain lol. At some point the "mechanic's ethics" die a little inside 😂
With modern engines and manufacturers requiring more from oil than just cooling, cushioning and lubricating changing the oil sooner rather than later is not a bad idea. Once manufacturers started using oil to run cam phasers, vvt solenoids, DOD/ MDS on top of performing its normal duties but also suggesting extended oil change intervals it didn’t make sense to me to run the oil longer than 3-5k miles especially how I drive. Yes oil is better than it has ever been but engines today also run hotter for fuel and emissions efficiency than they ever have. That isn’t even including how hard these small displacement turbo charged engines get run in just daily driving. With that said I have never heard of or seen an engine dying because I changed the oil too often but I have heard and seen them die when it was not changed frequently enough. Plus oil changes are a lot cheaper than a whole built engine. Plus I get to get under there and spot potential issues before they become problems. Like that loose exhaust pipe you found.
@@freedomworx ya his insane change intervals I don’t really agree with either but he’s technically not horribly wrong there either. Just not that’s crucial if ya ask me. Definitely wouldn’t hurt. His mentality is probly because people are so lazy that if he said 6 thousand they’d change it at 10-12 so if he says 3 it might actually happen at 6 🤷♂️all depends on the engine tho to. These new diesels, oh heck ya I agree with that. With emissions junk in tact the amount of soot that gets into the oil is friken insane and we can clearly see neeer diesel engines with emissions in tact absolutely don’t last like the old ones without so there’s definitely something to it when it comes to emissions in tact engines I’d say
@@sportmedtech Modern air/oil separators (PCV systems) greatly extend the life of the oil by pulling a vacuum on the crankcase at all times, even in boosted applications. Combined with the advances in oil itself, anything short of 5k is just goofy unless all you do is short trips.
This is a fantastic video! The editing is top tier.
I appreciate it 👍
I'll start by saying good video, and an interesting take on a highly debated topic.
The data from your test doesn't necessarily show that dry filters don't introduce additional bearing wear compared to pre-filled, it shows that any bearing wear that occurs from either is more than offset by the 6 gallons of fresh oil introduced into the system over the course of the testing. The likely source of the high initial wear indicators would be the residual old oil from the previous use interval, which was diluted down over the course of your testing. I'd be interested to see a follow up test where you just repeatedly drain and fill the engine incrementally with 6 gallons while performing 50 starts and see if your beginning and end points are similar to what you got from this experiment.
To get truly accurate data on the effect of just filling or not filling the filters you would need to start from a known clean state without that residual used oil and bearing material already floating around in there. As you yourself pointed out, even letting it sit for years won't remove all of the old oil (with old contaminants) from every nook and cranny of the engine. You need to find a way to completely clear it all out and start with pure, fresh oil coming out of the motor that tests identically to what comes straight from a new bottle. Anything less is an additional uncontrolled variable.
Totally agree with you. I don't understand how this point can be overlooked so easily. Still have never seen anyone actually do a test that doesn't leave a simple answer overlooked 🤦♂️. And also notice how when someone points out the obvious the creator has nothing to say.
Great video, man! Thanks for all that usage of those muscles you haven’t worked out in a while!
Not long ago I saw a Motor Oil Geek (or one where he was a guest) video where they were actually measuring how long their engine took to get oil pressure with pre-filled filter vs dry filter. The pre-filled took 6.6 seconds and the dry took…7.1 seconds. He basically just said “Well, I’m gonna continue to pre-fill anyway” 😂
I don't know what video you were watching. Way back when I was first learning engine mechanics we compared time to reach 40 psi oil pressure in a 1970 Pontiac Stratochief with Chevrolet 250 cu.in. inline six cylinder engine. It took 1.8 seconds for the engine with pre-filled filter to obtain oil pressure. But it took 7.7 seconds with a dry filter. That was a looong 7.7 seconds! The engine rattled and knocked the entire time. We saw and heard all we needed to know.
Sounds like something was wrong and the oil pump lost its prime, no way an engine would last if every startup it took 6.6 seconds to build pressure at 1000 rpm
@@KevinMaxwell-o3t just tried to find it in my RUclips history…went back through November before I gave up lol
It was a video where they had an engine on a stand, they timed the time until oil pressure. It might have been a video where he was a guest on someone else’s channel?
Not doubting you on the time difference, I was just surprised (as they were) that the time difference they were seeing was so minimal
@@LibertyOrD___h yeah, maybe…I was trying to find the video but gave up lol
He also had a video where he LOA'd a thin oil like 0W20 vs 20W50 and found measurable wear metals not filling the filter with the thin oil vs. it not mattering with the 20W50.
And if you ask quick lube shops. It doesn’t even matter if you pre-fill the engine.
😂😂
Great video. Been changing my own oil for 40+ years and never filled an oil filter until my last change on my 6.7 F250. The filter must have weighted 10 lbs full of oil and i had time getting it started. not work all that effort. BTW you had me at the Dillon press.
When I worked for Westrac/Cat ( working on 793 dump trucks, D11 dozers etc etc) I read a lot of technical bulletins and data about filling and pre filling oil filters, it was also a big no no pre filling filters, that included all oils like engine, trans, diffs and diesel filters.
I get why they say not to do it, Westrac/Cat where very big on contamination not getting into components.
As a company, they had to think of all the different things that happen in a shop . Like the kid who removed my Alison Transmission filter when the shop was just doing an oil change . I don't know how much engine oil got into the filter .
Tesla used to have a coolant flush as part of the maintenance schedule. They eliminated it, and it reduced their failure rate. This happened not because of some new magical coolant, but because they traced the primary cause of cooling related failures to contamination and determined it was better to leave the degraded coolant in the cars than risk a tech contaminating the system when flushing it.
Heavy equipment many times is serviced in the field so the conditions can be poor. That's why they don't recommend prefilling.
I once rode an airhead bmw motorcycle for 5 mins with no oil in the sump…
I never checked the bearings, but the bores had no noticeable wear. It had nearly 40k miles when this happened, I put another 20k miles on the bike before selling.
Crazy stuff!
the bacon simplified it all for me. Solid video sir! thanks
Bacon makes it bearable 😂
Certain BMW engines beg to differ about the bearings taking them out. 🤣
Awesome video, thank you so much for your hard work and dedication! ❤
German engineering 😂😉
I would only prefill if the engine has been completely stripped down and rebuilt where there is no oil on the surfaces.
Plus if prefill is so important, manufacturers would never put filters in horizontal or even upside down positions. Clearly it doesn't matter.
Also pressure doesn't mean protection. Pressure means there is flow and flow is cooling. Your oil film can withstand 30kpsi of pressure and the measly 15psi from oil pressure does nothing.
On the same topic, warming up the engine too long can actually cause more damages to the piston rings and cylinder walls. The rich mixture from cold engine washes the oil film off the walls and rings. It also dilutes the oil when going into the oil crank case.
Exactly..
Plus that oil film can easily carry the load during the 20-30 revolutions at basically no load until pressure comes up.
Everything else aside, do you really believe that the manufacturer wants your engine to last as long as you do?
Hopefully your rebuilld engine has oil applied of the surfaces, when you assamble the engine. On new or rebuild engines you just have to prevent the engine from starting. The easiest thing to do is, pull the fuse for the full pump, try to start the engine for 10 sec and here you have your fillter pre fiiled. Also you now have oil pressure on the chain tensionar, hydraulic lifter etc. that completely eliminate the rattle noises on first starts.
If you put an engine together with no assembly lube of some sort(oil or better yet GM EOS is what ive used) then pre filling an oil filter wont help you at all. Gonna have instant bearing damage. If pressure does not mean protection then try running it with 2PSI oil pressure and see how long it lasts. Your last statement is off base as well, multiple cold starts and short trips cause what your describing. Idle speed up to operating temp does not do what you say.
If you rebuilt an engine and assembled it dry, whether or not you fill your oil filter is the least of your problem by a long shot.
Long ago I spent time with a boat engine builder. He was running his engines boosted and running at very high power, steady. The boats were making violent turns and pounding the water up and down. As a result, they were getting a lot of air into the oil system. Even dry sump, the separators were unable to completely de-aerate. At his very high bearing loads and violent torque spikes as the prop got into air, he determined that the collapsed bubbles were growing into dry spots at bearings causing bearing damage. He actually mapped the pressure field across the plain bearings (main oil pressure at the feed port, zero at the edge of the bearing, with gradient profile varying depending if on the loaded or unloaded side). After experimenting with extremely high feed pressures, multiple feed ports, he came across a paper on designing for oil wedging, He has assistance from a company specializing in bearings meant for 2stroke engines and had bearings made with tree shaped slots , and placed restrictors into the supply ports. The oil pressure now dropped greatly right after the restrictor. Oil mass flow per bearing increased. Bubbles now blew out as they passed the restrictor and air and oil rapidly flowed through the channels. Now, the advancing journal was wiping up the oil so as to build dynamic pressure. The end result was that his engine life jumped. No more spun bearings and scrapped crankshafts. Does this apply to a car engine? Not very much as a car engine with a bunch of air in the oil arriving at a lightly loaded bearing (engine at idle), isn’t going to suffer much damage. But, for a race engine being run at say twice the torque is was designed for, at steady high RPM, he increased plain bearing life from about 1 hour to indefinite. His experience underscores how expanding bubbles can cause touchdown. The solution of arranging wedging type bearings was brilliant.
Fantastic comment, which is exactly why the comments section is so useful!
Someone told me about a very reliable car that had seized, but about six months after it had been involved in an accident and ended up on its roof. I suggested it had remained running upside down for a bit and had had enough oil starvation to put a simulated 100k miles on it. So it packed up very early. Unlikely in a car but as you say in a power boat it's a very violent environment. Can't think of another motor sport that's as bad. Maybe rally driving?
@@highdownmartin I thought modern cars had rollover detection? But maybe the rollover detection cuts fuel pump and enough dry running can happen to wipe the bearings?
@ I think it might have been an old Nissan, usually bomb proof but this one expired very early doors.
Entertaining and extremely informative. Not to mention, a ton of effort. Thank you!
I appreciate it. It was a ton of work! 🥴
I always prefill oil filters on passenger buses, but never on small cars. Also, you are ALWAYS supposed to prefill diesel fuel filters. If you don't, you've introduced an entire filter worth of air into your fuel system 😂. By the way, I'm a diesel mechanic. I've have worked for multinational companies for a decade.
I have some old videos of my Nitrous 2 valve 4.6L 2004 Mustang GT on my channel than took a beating and kept on ticking even after survivng a major oil related wear issue.
Related to engine wear with no oil pressure, I once did a rolling nitrous burnout from a stop sign (trying to impress a girl in the passenger seat) and blew the oil pump gear apart on the 2-3 shift. I thought I heard a "pop" during it but after the burnout i put it in 5th and was cruising around the lake with no weird sounds or problems. About 2 minutes and over a mile later I started hearing a faint "puft puft puft" sound and I thought to myself I blew an exhaust gasket. Another about 2 minutes and 3 miles later the "puft puft puft" sound got a little louder but I was talking to the girl and it didn't register to me that it could be something other than the exhaust gasket. Around 6 minutes and at least 5 miles later the "puft" sound started to sound like a "tack tack tack" sound which was the lifters drying out. I checked my gauges and noticed my factory oil pressure gauge was at zero! I immediately shut the engine off and coasted the car into the nearest driveway. I flipped on my aftermarket Autometer oil pressure gauge and cranked the car. Zero oil pressure on both gauges. Towed the car home and tore into the engine. The outer ring gear on the pump cracked and a tooth on the gear broke. I pulled the oil pan off to get to the rod caps to check the rod bearings for wear. I took a rod cap off and was amazed to see that the rod bearing looked new. Literally zero wear! I credit that to the Mobil 1 full synthetic I ran in the car. Car had about 50,000 miles on the engine. Replaced the pump with a billet one and it went on to survive 6,000RPM rev limiter clutch dumps on slicks N/A and lot of 4,000 RPM launches with a 150 shot of nitrous. Car ran like a dream when I traded it for a terminator.
I say all that to say if I ran my car for over 6 minutes with zero oil pressure and my rod bearings showed no visual wear I don't think one second of no oil pressure during oil changes by not filling the filter will affect the engine in a material way. Also, I always pre-fill my filters to this day. It doesn't really help much but gives me peace of mind.
Humm, good info.
When changing a fuel filter on a diesel engine if you do not have a priming pump you could cause yourself problems. I serviced a lot of caterpillar equipment and there were a few in particular that was best to fill the primary and secondary filters. However, caterpillar does not recommend filling the fuel filters either because of accidental introduction of contaminants. If you’re careful, you are not going to introduce contaminants.
Yep. I’m much more worried about contaminated fuel fouling an injector than I a worried about contaminated oil.
Really what I learned from this is that we should be changing our oil filter every minute to reduce wear metals in the oil.
Boom 💥
You sir, are as thorough as a proofreader in a tattoo parlor! Thank you!
I've never heard that one 😂
Seems the highway mile myth has been confirmed to be better on an engines longevity. Those cars do seem to run and perform better too.
Miles per cold start and load. Steady cruising down the highway all day is easy on an engine.
It was never a myth fortunately.
Steady state engine operation of any kind is much better than varying RPM and load. Commercial equipment like over the road trucks have clearly proven than. also dozers excavators ect engines have been proven to last much longer running against the governor at a single speed all day instead of constantly accelerating and decelerating.
@mediocreman2 but has anyone really proved it? This video clearly did so kudos to freedom.
I'm still pre-filling fuel filters, I'm not messing around with air in a diesel fuel rail.
Whatever makes you happy. I own 4 diesel trucks. They all have priming features.🤷♂️
most cars have manual pumps at the filter housing or electric pump at the tank, so it will self prime, or you manually prime it, some exotics or money pits like Range Rovers require diagnostic to prime the filter, but they are not that many
Mine I don't think I have to. The installation procedure just says to press the hand primer until firm.
The clearances in a diesel injection system are just too ridiculously tight for me to want to risk it. One little particle….
The equipment and trucks I run don't all have ways to prime them easily so they are getting pre filled or else you are SOL
I once started a ford fiesta and ran it until the thermostat opened and the fan came on . Then I saw that the oil light was on and remembered that I had drained it the previous day . I dropped the sump and pulled the Big end caps . And they looked new I put them back and refilled it . Its still running 4 years later
Which generation was it? If it’s an old one from the late nineties I‘m not surprised. They had the Endura E engines that made almost no power but were nearly indestructible
Automotive Jesus must've forgiven you for your sins lmao.
we used to do this in high school and use slick 50 then drain the oil and start the engine.
@@Anonymus-ih7yb 2007 . They called it a duratec here In SA
@@blown503 Hahaha, Slick 50!! Damn, haven't heard anyone mention that in years!!
Bro, first time I’m seeing a video of yours, and I love videos like this, and I can already say you’ve just got yourself a subscriber, at least. Probably.
.
I used to work in a large plant that had many moving parts. Each of the bearing surfaces were lubricated with collodial graphite oil either once a week of once a month, depending upon the machine. We applied one drop of oil to the bearing surface with a paint brush, and then wiped a rag over it to remove any excess. Admittedly our parts were light duty only.
Your engine should already have oil on its bearings from the last time it was run. The pumped lubrication system on most cars is an overkill. Once the bearing surfaces have oil on them, there is little point in adding more. Once it is wet, it is wet. You can't get wetter than wet.
.
Oil pumps are needed so that there is enough flow to cool the components that are being lubricated. Lubrication is only one function of the oil.
If you think pumped lubrication is overkill, i challenge you to remove your oil pump and drive your car for awhile.
@@freedomworx
Also, to keep the clearances filled with oil so the wedge of oil can be dragged into the load zone and thus pressurized, which does the heavy lifting in a journal bearing. The pump pressure DOES NOT float the journal/bearing apart.
Also to keep the oil itself cool. The shear within the oil layer is the source of a lot of the heat produced; the relative contribution of contact friction I don’t know, but suspect it’s the lesser.
Man you ate wrong on so many levels, pressure from combustion squeezes the oil film pushing the oil out of the bearings, luckiny we have pressurized oil to immediately fill the gap, so yes pressure is very much needed,and as the engine wears the film is thicker and more pressure can be needed, you cant turn 7500 rpm with 15 pounds of pressure,
@@ShannonpdpHammond-yy7yh Just wondering how many years your 7500rpm engine will last.... I have two 1925 motorcycles that use Pilgrim Total Loss lubricators. These admit one drop of oil into the engine main bearings every 6 seconds, and have run that way for the last 100 years. Also some Briggs and Stratton engines use a Flinger on the big end to splash oil from the sump all over the crancase. I could also try to explain to you how all two strokes get lubricated, with petrol that has just 1/50th part of oil mixed in.
ruclips.net/video/JkYeGolDxfA/видео.html
I don't think I've ever prefilled, because when I asked an old timer mechanic, he told me it didn't really matter. I figured why do an extra step if it didn't really matter, and my highest mileage truck (320k+) only failed due to the transfer case chain coming apart.
Well now you have some actual science to support the old timer's recommendation 😉
Highest mileage engine we had was a bmw M52TU in a 2000 323i It’s a top mount cartridge filter. You literally cannot pre fill that filter. Sold the car with 252k miles and engine was perfect. Trans was starting to slip a little after never being serviced. This was also with bmws oil service indicator so whenever the oil light came on it was changed. That’s can be up into the 10-15k mile range but it’s a full synthetic oil.
I never have either. All my vehicles have 200k to 300k on them.
This is well done. And it makes sense. It also explains why engines that have extremely high mileage were almost always highway driven. I remember seeing a Scotty Kilmer video on this topic. In his multi-decade experience as a mechanic, he has only seen a million-mile (1.6 million km) engine a few times. One was in an older Toyota Camry, while the other was in an older Ford F150. These vehicles are known for longevity, but the common denominator was highway driven - and almost exclusively at that!
So the take-away is pre-filling or not likely won’t make much of a difference. The best advice may be: doing regular maintenance, driving your vehicle for a longer period at a time (to drive more at operating temperature), and driving calmly when the engine is cold.
Scotty Kilmer 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
ESPECIALLY the drive calmly when engine is cold. I live in Canada and the amount of tims I see someone hop into their BMW put it in sport mode, and boot off down the road from their driveway. You can hear the engine wails and screeches sometimes from all thie ice cold parts crying. Then thy wonder why their engine/trans only lasted 60,000Kms. "BMWs are crap cars, with shitty engines that break all the time.".... No, you're just a moron with more uncontrolled testosterone than rational brain cells....
I'll take any free 1000 miles I can get. Not like leaving the filter empty saves a significant amount of time when it only takes 5 extra seconds
How can you watch Scott Kilmer? His voice is so painful to listen to...