The Ground Loop Monster
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- Опубликовано: 20 янв 2019
- Let's talk about ground loops.
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The Gear I used for this video:
Fuji X-T3 - amzn.to/2EE3WU7
The bendy tripod thing - goo.gl/n7wx14
My on camera mic - goo.gl/GNsHF6. 
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Trent, I am a CFI and have 1100 hours tailwheel time in aircraft from T6’s to Cubs and have to say you did an EXCELLENT job with this video. Well done! And, yup....keep those rudders pedals moving. “Happy feet” is the best way to deny the “Ground Loop Monster” 😉
As just a drone pilot at the moment, I really enjoyed this explanation and am glad to hear a CFI found it accurate. Trent, you rock
You say you're not an instructor... but you did a far better job at explaining this, then I've ever heard. Well done, Trent!
Thanks Serg!
My very 1st landing (I was 14 years old and learning in a J3 ) ended in a ground loop. That was in 1963 and I’ve never been bitten again. There was no damage to anything but my pride, but I learned my lesson and I learned to dance on those pedals. My instructor thought it was hilarious but when he quit laughing, he explained exactly what happened and took me to our practice area for an intense lesson on rudder control. Good video. Keep up the good work. Thanks. After all these years I still prefer flying taildraggers.
Nice UMX timber;) Awesome vid Trent!
Thanks to you guys for that one!!!
UMX Timmy... THE best umx ever made, IMO. It's Trent's fault i wanted one.... now I got the big one, too!
Hi flight test. Big fan. I'm getting my AXN ready. It's like the bixler. It's almost ready to fly. I've been a supporter for a long time. One year I'm going to go to flight fest. I'm going to have some rc videos soon ( although not as good as yours ). You inspired me to join the hobby. Thank you so much. I've had so much fun.
Go the umx timbers
Thanks Trent for taking the time to create a physical model to demonstrate this affect, very well done!
As an ex tail wheel instructor I’d say you’re pretty spot on Trent. LOVE your model and demonstration on the treadmill. Love the videos man. Keep em coming.
That's probably the most use your treadmill has had in years.
I can tell you for a fact it’s the only use it’s gotten in years 🤪
We taught the dog to use it
Lol
The best use of a treadmill I have ever seen is the ddwfttw Blackbird series. That stuff is a total mind bender. Immense fun reading the comments as as people struggle to wrap their brains around it.
@@kwittnebel ddwfttw: "Dead DownWind Faster Than The Wind" oops! That really is something! But you could perhaps elaborate, or I can give a link:
www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/museum/ddwfttw.htm
... though I am still sceptical!
But I came here to say thanks for the treadmill-explanation. Love and LOL.
Excellent explanation. I've explained it by comparing it to a game of darts. Every time a pilot lands a taildragger, its like getting a dart to hit the board going backwards.
This was the single best, clearest explanation I have ever seen or heard of a ground loop. I got the concept with the RC model, but the demonstrations with the model you built and with the luggage cart nailed it. I hope you would be at least credited for it, but I cannot believe that some instructors would not use this to help explain the concept. I could see an instructor sitting with his or her student, smart phone in hand, saying "hey, watch this", before the first flight.
Funny thing, I was going to say really nice things about the intro because it was so well done, but the lesson was just outstanding.
Thanks John!
Right on spot, many thanks Trent for this imaginative way of showing the famed Ground Loop Monster - Jean-Marc
My ground loop was caused by a brakeline failure on landing. Dent in the empanage, that had to be repaired, and a broken runway marker light. The plane was fixed and flying again long befor the runway light was replaced. Dragonfly Mk4.
The close call was when I was instructing a new pilot in an Avid Flyer, He had about 4 good landings in a row, and the 5th started to go around and off the runway, " I have control" full opposite rudder, brakes, cross ailerons and power happend instinctivley. I heard the control tower over the radio call the emergency service as they hit the crash button. But like Trent's story I was able to save it and was flying with a short takoff roll in the grass to avoid the runway marker sign. The next thing I hear is " Cancel Emergency service, he took off in the grass". It took a week before the owner/student was ready to try again, but try again he did and is now a pilot.
Trent....Many years ago in the Great White North, I taught myself to fly taildragers in my Champion airyplane. It was many years after that before I actually had an instructor sign off my log book , a mere formality. I also taught myself to fly floats in both of my planes, the Camp and a Stinson 108. Both tail draggers have many hours (about 40 years worth)on them with me at the controls. I only came close to a ground loop once when I was distracted on rollout due to the big fan in the front stopping. Minor adjustment to the carburetor corrected that. My idle was a tad too slow with the carb heat on.
I learned to fly in a tail wheel Cessna 140. At solo I had some problem seeing the the angle between the direction the plane was moving and the centerline of the aircraft. I took a piece of tape and made a centerline on the cowl, that simple vissual reference immediately solved the problem.
With almost 50 years in tw, first a C140 and now my C120, this is great advice.
Although I've never ground-looped, I've seen two, one right in front of me, and the second about 1/4 mile away.
You are exactly right, at some point you'll know your aircraft so well that you will anticipate and correct this swerving tenancy immediately.
I've found that taking cross-wind runways for landing has helped a lot, one will have lots of deviations and can practice for them.
Force the aircraft to go straight down the runway. If there is drift, there is a problem in the making.
Well thought out video.
Thanks! And I am in the same boat as you only a lot of years less experience. But I have watched a few ground loops right in front of me. Never any fun.
I’m an experienced USN pilot and airline pilot. I’m new to GA and tail draggers and I really appreciate this quality instruction. Thank you.
My grandpa was an aviation mechanic during WWII. He fixed more than 1000 airplanes. He knew about ground loops, but he barely saw one. Though all the planes were taildraggers at that time. And airstrips were muddy offroad fields. At any second either wheel could get stuck in a dirt puddle while the other one would roll on with little resistance.
Later, in 1950s-1960s, when jet planes and tricycle gear took over he saw many ground loops. They started to occur frequently. Even later in 1970s and on when tricycle gear became a standard ground loops happened to be rare again.
I love how you used your UMX Timber as an instructional model...lol 😂👍
Yeah that was great!
dude excellent analogy with the 3 wheel shopping cart demo!
Hah! I have personally tried to get a shopping cart to roll backwards without turning around. It doesn't wanna do it!
One of the best explanations! I have been flying tailwheels for 40 years and am still in the gonna category. The CG behind the mainwheels is the physics, but your model on the treadmill was priceless! GREAT JOB!
Loved the model on the tread mill. Explained it very well. 😊
Thx to you I'm flying again. I started with RC aircraft on flight test and found you. I had given up on ever flying again. My pilot license from the 90's was dusty and I was rusty. The government shutdown has my medical stuck in Oklahoma City but my CFI has me ready to solo again. I bought a 1957 Cessna 172 and my wife has started ground school. I'm so excited and thankful for your inspirational videos. I've learned so much from you, avation 101, MZeroA and many others. I hope to shake your hand in person soon at a fly in somewhere. Thank you. Doc Mike in TEXAS
Windows Operating System
I started on Gliders, so I'm 110% rudder when I'm flying. Recently transitioned to single engine, and even the DPE said it showed. Will be getting tailwheel this spring, and hope I will remain one of "those who will groundloop" for as long as possible before it happens.
I also started as a glider pilot. And was flying competition glider aerobatics for some years. So using the rudders was in the blood.
This might be, why I love taildraggers soooo much more than trigears.
My little Boredom Fighter biplane had a locking tailwheel which prevented ground loops. It worked perfectly. I forgot to lock it prior to take off once, and sure enough, upon landing, the monster came alive! No damage to the plane, but I felt 3 feet tall. Flying is great fun, but it is a game of caution, preparation, and ongoing training. Flying skills don't last forever, either, so know your limitations as the years go by. Nice presentation, Trent!
I used to fly with an old pilot who had both Tricycle, and tail wheel aircraft, including a Harvard T-6. He taught me to start tapping the pedals as soon as you throttle up on the runway. This is tailwheel only, obviously. He feels that this constantly induced wobble puts the aircraft in a known state.This way, you are not waiting to react to the airplane. As the airspeed increases, and the rudder starts to become effective, you switch from tapping the pedals, to a slower, longer push to left and right. As a passenger, it was definitely noticeable, but not uncomfortably so.
We once landed in his Aeronca Champ, and the tailwheel springs let go when the tailwheel touched the runway. He saved the landing with brakes, but things could have gone badly.
I for one have really enjoyed the talking videos as of late, very informative, Thanks Trent
Trent, more of this please....
I'm currently 20 + hours into training as a (tail wheel only) student pilot fighting off the Monster.
My intention is to keep my training all pure tail wheel.
Your simulation of trike and tail is the best and most useful illustration of how things work that I have seen yet.
Please share more of your real world tail wheel learning experiences with us future Flying Cowboys in training.
Another adventure bike guy getting his PPL? I love it! Same here. I find that these 2 hobbies overlap quite often. Good luck with your flight training!
@@MotoFlightGuy Yes, as an avid off-road, back-country motorcyclist, Trent and the Cowboys have shown me a new level of "Dual Sport Adventure Riding" that can extend my reach deeper into the bush.
@@ADVRider990 that's EXACTLY why I am drawn to back country flying as well. It's just a natural fit for an off road motorcyclist.
I’m learning tail dragger myself in a Kitfox. No clue what a trike is like... my instructor recommended a good book, “the compleat taildragger pilot”. Definitely helps me grasp the physics around them a lot better.
1. Stay proactive. Dance, dance, dance!
2. Required inputs will change depending on the phase of rollout/takeoff.
3. Stay off the breaks until your tailwheel is on the ground and you have let enough energy bleed off. Then apply breaks evenly and slowly. Before takeoff and touchdown, make sure that your feet are AWAY from the breaks. This was one that I needed to work on. Easy to get into a bad habit and real easy to cause you trouble.
3. FLY THE PLANE UNTIL THE ENGINE STOPS.
It will probably click after more practice. The only ones you'll want to keep reminding yourself about is #2 and #3. That's pretty much all that I can think of.
Proud to say I got my first ground loop out of the way in my primary training. J-3 Cub, happened on roll out, super slow, no damage. You’re spot on about the end phase where you’re just along for the ride. You can have full left rudder applied and just be rotating to the right. Glad mine happened early so I could feel what it’s like.
I have also ground looped twice with a glider. Both times at a outlanding, but that´s totally different to powered plane :D
In your Libelle? How did you avoid breaking the tail boom?
@@WyllSurfAir One at the JWGC in Lithuania with my Std. Libelle and one with a DG300. Both times the tail was not on the ground when the glider was rotating.
@@WyllSurfAir It's very circumstantial. T tails are more inclined to break than cruciform (big weight up the top of a long axis of the fin). Crops, furrows, speed, cross winds, how much the wing digs in and more all contribute to whether the backend departs.
I think the light just went on for a lot of us...myself included! Now I get it. Great explanation...thank you!
Had my first (and hopefully last) groundloop today on a piper supercub in training, got away extremely lucky with no damage or anything at all. Just got absolutely terrified.
Treadmill demonstration made it clear that the tailwheel is inherently unstable. With no input it's still all over the place. That's what I'll be trying to accomplish from now on, staying just ahead of those occilations. Excellent job explaining and demonstrating these concepts.
When I learned to fly and land gliders my instructor told he I would need to be doing a tap dance on the rudder all the time and keep the wings level ( only one wheel ) you can't use brakes to steer when you only have one wheel. A few years later when I added a conventional landing gear rating to my power rating, it was easy for me. The big problem when a fiberglass high performance gliders ground loops it brakes the tail boom off, very expensive repairs. My home field had two shops doing composite aircraft repairs I saw several broken tail booms. Good video thanks.
I just turned 70, I'm craving flying my own cub. I might have to stop watching these awesome videos. I had my chance and did not get my license when I was younger. It would be fun talking classes, I'll have to look into what's available around me. I'm in Cape Breton, N.S. .
Keep on keeping on. Don't lose track of the wife, she comes first!
Sport pilot license seems to be your answer, I hope you get in the air!
Jose! (My name is David Jose)…keep up your dream. I got my PPL in a Cessna 140 that I had purchased BEFORE my very first lesson. I was 58 years young then. I have 500 hours total (in a taildragger) and exactly 1 hour in a nose wheel aircraft
My family had always owned tail draggers (Cessna 170, T-Craft, DC 3, etc,). I only heard the axiom of have/will ground loop from bus drivers whose aircraft had the tail wheel on the wrong end. You must "fly" a conventional gear aircraft even when on the ground.
I am a 76 year old geezer who was never able to afford to fly but always wanted to fly bush planes low and slow. Your demo of ground loop dynamics especially the airport cart, was astonishingly enlightening. Nothing magic, just basic physics demonstrated slowly without drama. It just happens before your eyes, I must have watched that clip a dozen times in amazement.
Excellent explanation! I have been flying RC aircraft for 40 years and am an RC instructor. I plan to have my students watch this video so they can understand how and why ground loops happen.
You'd make a good instructor Trent. In the transition from "reactive" to "authoritative" tailwheel pilot, it's about keeping your feet moving. Incidentally, this is true for nose dragger pilots too. While the ground loop monster leaves them alone, I see students who don't track the centerline because they are slow and lazy on the pedals. So if you are a nosewheel pilot thinking of making the transition to tailwheel, you can develop good habits now by staying light and quick on your pedals to always be over and parallel to centerline.
should mention using the throttle to recover. counterintuitive but lotsa power blasts the tail back behind you.
Hmm not according to this guy...
m.ruclips.net/video/1iJeuflwj5g/видео.html
HaaHaa !
Agree with the point about nosewheel pilots having to pay attention, too. Especially if the plane has a freely castering nose wheel. I had gotten used to the Cessnas being easy to steer on takeoff, and then transitioned to a Diamond DV20... It took a while to figure out the amount of rudder input you need when starting the takeoff run, and how active you have to stay to keep it anywhere near the centerline :)
...I'm glad I got it nailed before the end of the summer, because now the runway surface of the local airport is mostly just shiny ice :) Brakes? What brakes? Don't use the brakes! If there's a patch under one wheel that actually *does* have some friction, you'll end up in the snow bank on the side of the runway! The runway is long enough that you can just let the plane run out of momentum and then taxi off. Carefully.
If you're flying a nose dragger, you're going the wrong way.
The guy I bought my Champ from suggested this exercise to get aquainted with that little wheel in back: Put a series of cones down the centerline of the runway then taxi a slolum track through them. After you can easily get through a pass or three, increase the speed and do it again. At some point, you can feel the tail want to come around similar to an oversteering car. This is the feel that you practice staying ahead of by learning the dance.
That sounds like a great technique for training in a tailwheel
Not only is it a good training exercise, it's fun in its own right,,
That treadmill demonstration is very similar to the ones showing how a mis-loaded trailer (Not enough tongue weight) behave. As an avid RVer, I have known this, but I never really knew the physics. Thanks for putting it so simply.
Yeah, that video is what inspired me to test it with a landing gear simulation
@@TrentonPalmer I've posted a link to it on my RV forum. Knowing what will happen is good, Knowing WHY is better. Maybe your demonstration will help another guy understand the 'why'.
I loved the makeshift vehicle on the treadmill, incredible visual to see how massive the change is!
Looking forward to, "My first ground loop", video. 😄
Got caught out once in the early 90s, was in my early 20s and flying a Maule M7 235 onto a narrow dirt runway on top of a hill. Long story short I relaxed for a second then tried to correct, realised what was happening too late. Undercarriage held out, thought id got away unscathed. Got out noticed front side of the left elevator had hit a small bush causing minor damage to it.
Love your videos. I learned to fly in a Luscombe Silvaire. Taught by my father who had 40,500 hours of flying before he retired and flew no more! I have 5000 hours in tail draggers of many different types pf planes. Not once have I nor my father, ever ground looped a plane! The Luscombe I learned in is hanging in the Permian Basin Petroleum Museum in Midland Texas. The Plane was used as a leak finder for Mobile Oil Pipelines from 1951 to around 1964 when Magnolia Oil, the Subsidiary pipeline company of Mobile purchased Cessna 172s to replace the Luscumbes. Since N2645 was the first plane Magnolia Oil bought for their Pipline service they have loaned it to the Museum for display. My father and I along with my youngest son made a trip to see the plane before my father passed and he left pictures of he the plane and all pilots standing in front of this Luscombe. If you google Permian Basin Petroleum's Luscombe you will find the plane.
Trent good review. I am one of those tail dragger pilots waiting for my first ground loop. I noticed you highlighted a broken Carbon Carbon involved in a ground loop. That surprised me. I have been flying Carbon Cubs for 8 years and find with the right training they are more resistant to ground looping thanother tail draggers. The reason is because they have an awsome power to weight ratio. I have wrapped up my Carbon Cub into the later stages of a ground loop several times. In each case application of full power (180 HP in a 1320 lb airplane) literally blows the Carbon Cub out of a ground loop. That 180 HP of thrust provides instantaneous rudder authority and you are likely flying in just a few feet. If you are well along in the ground loop you may be flying 90 degrees to the runway with this recovery but you are flying and in total control.
I believe some pretty nasty crosswind gusts were involved with this particular ground loop
Excellent explanation with visuals on the treadmill and shopping cart. I just noted the guy below me said the same thing and a pilot, so I must be right. Well done!
Every tailwheel pilot has heard the "have/will" axiom, and it's understandable. But when discussing it with Budd Davisson, he said that he's never groundlooped... in almost half a century of flying over 140 aircraft models (including warbirds) and many decades of instructing in the Pitts Special. That tells me that it the tailwheel monster can be kept at bay indefinitely... one landing or taxi at a time. Every one counts.
I heard Budd say this at his Oshkosh forum last July. Impressive! If he can pull that off training students in a Pitts and flying Warbirds, the rest of us should be able to as well.
I was gonna say, my dad has over 25K hours with every bit of half of that in tailwheels and has never had a ground loop.
Agreed
I agree to a point, the problem is there are sometimes things that are out of a pilots control. For example I almost lost it in my Maule because of a low tire. Now before someone quips how I should've found it during my preflight etc it happened after pulling the floats. We pulled the floats, changed the gear etc and took a test flight. Had it been in the tire prior to taking off for the 2.5-3 hour flight home we'd have seen it, either during the install or prior to my friend signing off of doing the swap. Believe me, it can happen to anybody. I'm a AG pilot and I've been flying since 11-12 years old and 95% of it has been in tail draggers. It was worse than trying to land with half a hopper in a bumpy fields with a crosswind, luckily it was my home field so when she came around I just went with it and the only damage was to our pumpkin patch.
"Had it have been in the tire prior to taking off".... those air nails are sneaky. 👍Lol.
I landed with an ice frozen left wheel onto asphalt. C180.. made it ok...
Taught me to not get the brake hot taxiing in snow.
You MUST be "on your toes" every second and ahead of the airplane.
You cannot be asleep.
Trent, that demonstration with the little stick model on a treadmill says more than a thousand words about how important awareness of your center of gravity is. It also reminded me of stories I've heard from cargo pilots who've had pallets or containers break free and slide towards the nose or tail in flight. And while you may not have the rating, you're an instinctive instructor.
Great demo! And you're spot on about transitioning from being reactive to anticipating the plane's actions and being able to make the plane go where you want it to go, when you want it to. A very satisfying accomplishment, once you get there. Practice, practice, practice......in less than ideal conditions.
I know old timers, pilots with many thousands of hours in tail wheel aircraft, that have never had a ground loop!
BUT, these same pilots will never touch certain models of aircraft!
For a safe tail wheel aircraft, you need excellent brakes and plenty of rudder!
A wide, stout main gear and very strong tail-wheel.
With all that going for you, IF THE PILOT DOES HIS JOB, your not going to ground loop!
Haha love the creativity at the beginning :D
I got my private certificate in 1973 and accumulated about 350 hrs tt, put a few hours in a Luscombe 8E luckily never looped or got confidence in landings, you can’t play a piano with two left feet. Always enjoy going along for the ride with you and all your flying buddies. Stay safe!!
You are exactly right about active rudder inputs. I flew taildraggers as a student pilot back in 1965 and did two of my required x-countries in a Cessna 140. My instructor hammered the rudder usage into me until it was automatic. The one problem I did have at first, which was corrected with further instruction, was bouncing. Not only does the mass behind the main gear want to make you turn, it also pushes the tail down if you touch down too hard. In other words, instead of making a 3-pointer, I was making a sloppy wheel landing.
I have the umx timber and the bigger one as well
Love the rc hobby!!!!!
PLANES THAT IS!!!!!!
oh the days in the Champ with my father smacking me in head with the sectional yelling "use your feet!"
The Cub was so much tamer :)
papa loved you!
that was tough love, at least it was before ipads !!@@UncleWiggy252
My btother and I owned a Champ. I nearly ground looped it once, and my Dad's
Citabria.
What a wonderful modell you built to explain the effects with the help of a treadmill. Now I understood the principle, too. Thanks.
Hi Trent, Enjoy your videos of your Kit Fox, always wanted to build one, but got too old! The first tail dragger I learned to fly, was a Boeing Stearman. I was taught to fly it 'til I was stopped, and parked. I have never ground looped any tail dragger since. I've seen seasoned pilots and also vets, ground loop, because of falling asleep, lazy rudder, or head locked up "you know where". Thanks for your vids, they are entertaining at times! Bob
The Ground Loop Monster claimed another victim today. A moment of silence for PZL-104 Wilga N123T "Draco".
We're all here because we all heard about that.
That was a great plane. At least no one was hurt - but for a broken finger nail.
Not exactly. Mike himself stated that he made the mistake of taking off in conditions beyond the limits of the aircraft and the pilot, i.e. crosswinds of 35 knots+. It was really the 'get there monster' that caused the pilot to make a bad decision.
Yep. The accident happened before he even left the ground. A nose wheel airplane would have ground looped in those conditions.
That wasn't the ground loop monster. That was the stupid pilot monster.
In my glider training we have discussed the ground loop as a measure of last resort to stop the glider :-)
I had to perform a groud loop once to come to a stop in time. In a scenario like the one you described. it was a short field, slightly downhill with high trees on final. I side-slipped over the trees, put the plane down asap and braked as hard as possible. The harvested crop field was pretty hard, I hoped it was softer but unfortunately the plane did not slow down as fast as I hoped it would. So the only option I had was to ground loop; tail of the ground and forcing the right wing into the ground. That did the trick. Otherwise it would have been a barbed wire and a ditch. Only five meters left. Worst landing decision I ever made. In hindsight I would have landed with tailwind.
Luckily no significant damage, only the tailskid came off. And I had to remove the wheel to clean of the dirt that became stuck between the tire and the rim. Had it fixed the same evening.
@@RickSoaring You walked away so good landing airplanes can be mended easier than pilots.
I did a similar thing myself after an engine out into too small a field.
@@RickSoaring Thx for sharing!
Have seen it once as my field. Luckily at the point of wingtip touchdown, the glider was going a walking pace. Still bumped a tree and cracked the nosecone though. Easy fix on the Blanik.
Yikes, my glider instructors taught me the international ground loop as last resort. Then again no going around,
For any pilots wanting to learn to fly rc - that UMX Timber (or the Timber Turbo)
is an excellent entry level plane - I learned on it and began developing my aerobatic skills with it.
Heck Trent I ground looped a Cessna 150 about 45 years ago my instructor said my right foot was too high on the pedals, I say it was my first cross wind landing instead of left rudder I over-corrected with too much right rudder. Have never spun around that fast in anything else, thank the lord for renters insurance that was an expensive mistake. Awesome video keep um coming I'm never too old ta learn something new.
Dance dance dance.... that’s the best way I can explain it. Any rudder input followed by a quick opposite jab. :-)
How does this help?
If you noticed his tailwheel prop, how even with a straight wheel it begins to wobble left then right bigger each time. Your constantly countering that unwanted movement. Dancing on the rudders, plane goes left, enter a right rudder immediately followed by slightly less left. Keeps it straight. The worst thing you can do is not have your feet moving. Especially if your in a short coupled tailwheel like a pacer, a Pitts, etc. The most dangerous portion is when your moving but don’t have rudder authority. Requires bigger inputs. As airspeed increases, it will be a series of very rapid small inputs. These rapid inputs help keep that cg on the center line and keep it from getting out of hand.
If you watch someone landing a short wheel base (short coupled) tailwheel, you will see that rudder wagging back and forth constantly. Some airplanes will let you get away with more, like a Cessna 170, the longer the easier, assuming nothing is broke or unequal braking. Like the Cessna 195 (a very stable tailwheel), in the video, they lost it because likely a brake issue or failing to enter right rudder when applying power (p factor).
Needless to say, quick little movements keeps it straight, it’s a dance, hence dancing on the rudder... :-)
@@AkPacerPilot I only ground looped once in my Aeronca L3. Right after my tailwheel touched the runway, I began dancing on the pedals, as usual. At that moment, the spring connecting the cable to one side of my steerable tailwheel chose to separate from the steering horn, thus giving one pedal more authority to turn than the other. Before I realized what had happened, my dance on the pedals sent me into the loop. Murphy, it seems, always awaits. No damage to my airplane, but as luck would have it, I had my wife in the back seat, and I don't think she ever felt comfortable flying with me again 😢
Frank Castronovo that’s a bummer, but at least plane was ultimately okay. Mechanical causes ground loop, might not be anything you can do about that other than catching it on a preflight, but even that can mis what you had.
As an FAA Airworthiness Inspector, these types of videos can be very informative when training new inspectors investigating incident/accidents.
Thank you for putting this in terms even a non-aviator will understand.
Great video, sir!
Trent I can tell from your explanation of tailwheel aircraft control and your emphasis on rudder that there is one word I can tell you that will help more than anything else to avoid the groundloop. That word is AILERON! before you say that I'm crazy and don't know what I'm talking about just try this one time and you will be convinced! This will be much easier if you go to a nice 5000 foot paved runway so you have a little time to spend experimenting with those mainwheels on that pavement. You don't even have to land to do this, in fact i encourage all my tailwheel students to use every takeoff as a chance to practice this.. Either on the landing roll or on the takeoff use enough power to get the tailwheel up in the air and start playing with the ailerons while rolling down this nice long paved runway while up on the mains. you will notice that when you make even the tiniest left aileron input the nose will go right and when you make right aileron input the nose will go left! After you learn this you can steer the plane going down the runway with absolutely NO, yes that's ZERO rudder input. Now you will be ready to discover how much more powerful and effective aileron is than rudder for directional control going down the runway. then you can see why when you have just touched down in a left xwind for example and the plane which was drifting right on final and over the runway touches down and suddenly weathervanes into the wind and goes left it catches the untrained and unprepared pilot by surprise and when he makes right aileron input it overpowers his right rudder input and does a left groundloop for sure! almost every single pilot i've trained has not had any idea at all of his aileron inputs when we started and they always steer like they would in their car which almost guarantees a ground loop in the correct circumstances. yes Trent you will discover that the aileron will overpower the rudder every time! I have avoided many groundloops by steering the aileron in the SAME direction the nose is starting to go. also you are spot on when you state that nosewheel pilots are way behind the tailwheel airplane in the beginning. they have no idea the level of concentration it takes to maintain positve directional control.
I love your videos. I have over 25,000 hours in the air and about 15,000 of those were in tail draggers like the Piper Cub, Luscombe Silvaire and Cessna 180 and my favorite the Stenson and other tail dragging airplanes. My father on the other hand flew more than 50,000 hours. WWII P47, various tail dragging aircraft as a civilian flight instructor and about 22,000 hours in a Luscombe Silvaire 8 F for Magnolia Oil Company of Dallas Texas. His Luscombe is hanging in the Permian Basin Museum in Midland Texas. Tail Number N2645. Neither of us ever ground looped a tail dragger. My father is gone now and at 74 my health has taken my ability to pass a flight physical but I still run outside when I hear a Round Motor Airplane fly over my house. Keep up the great videos young man and Please be Careful. My whole family watches all of your videos and we gather together to watch them when you have a new one out. And as an after thought on tail draggers the P47 had a Locking Tail Wheel and this helped the pilots of WWII to keep from ground looping. If you could make your Kit Fox tail wheel lockable it would help. Just a thought.
Absolutely love the treadmill demonstration! Brilliant!
Same, I think it should be shown like this at flight schools!
I have had the opportunity to go flying pretty regularly with my friend Don in his red Taylorcraft. As time has progressed, I’ve experienced things like taxiing, takeoffs, a bit of cross country, and a few touch and goes on the ice. I can definitely tell I’m still a bit reactionary with rudder inputs on takeoff but I’m getting pretty good at telling the airplane where to go when taxiing. I hope to start flight training in the Taylorcraft in the spring...
Good job Trent! The best ground loop demonstration, without leaving the house! I'm about to fly my Experimental Eros for the first time. 726 hrs in light singles, but all my "taildragger" time, is with my R/C fleet of airplanes, which run to about 34 now.
I have a background in audio production. In audio, a "ground loop" is when you have two pieces of equipment (say, a CD player and an amplifier) with two different paths between their electrical ground connections (say, one connection through the audio cable, and one through the equipment's power cables) at different potentials. This causes a current to flow around the loop, which causes buzzing in the output. In fact, I would say that 99% of all buzzing or humming in an audio system is caused by a ground loop somewhere.
So I was very confused when I started getting in to aviation, and heard people talking about ground loops in their planes. I thought they were talking about problems with their radios until I found a RUclips video explaining it.
Also in the geothermal heating world a “ground loop” is a liquid filled pipe ran in a large loop through the ground to extract the heat from it. So there’s definitely a few different uses for the term ground loop!
Great video! And what a coincidence! I made my first ground loop just 3 days ago when I was training crosswind landings in a Cub. The airfield I fly from was very icy, so the wheels didn’t grip. And the plane just turned on me when i had landed. I’m also very new to fly tail wheel planes. I think it turned just cause the field was so icy, I probably should have used more rudder also, luckily nothing happened to the plane. But it was scary for sure. And I learned from it the hard way I guess. 😊 I guess when flying from icy airfield that you have to be extremely cautious, so if any have som tips for that I would be very happy. 😊
Fly em ALL tiedown to tiedown.
Learn to use control input in cross wind taxiing...
learn to control every airplane without the "brake crutch".
JMO. 2,000 Tailwheel.. no loop
*If you have the time and hes doing good enough you should go down and make another video on nikks recovery*
I did my PPL training in a PA-11 at an airport where the Gendarmerie also trained their pilots in a PA-11. Early in my training we're #1 for takeoff holding short of the runway with the Gendarmerie PA-11 on final. Not 100 ft after they touch down, sure enough, they spin like a top. I think I could physically hear my CFI's eyes roll back into his skull.
By the time I was ready to take my exam, we would both be rolling our eyes as we saw them coming - I could swear they managed to ground loop the aircraft one out of every three times I saw them landing.
Well done Trent. As a Pilot who learned in a tail wheel type a long time ago, it brought back memory's of my own learning curve. Very good information and well explained. And remember "Never hit your shadow"
I equate landing a tailwheel aircraft to backing up a trailer at 55 miles an hour.
There's a good King of the Hill episode about that.
I have never reversed a trailer as that speed. I've also, I'm quite certain, never reversed a car at that speed. Cars are pretty controllable at 25mph in reverse. Not that interested in trying anything beyond that
I almost ground looped in my first flying lesson wasn't concentrating on the right rudder my instructor had to take over QUICK
Trent, this is definitely one of the channels that I save my morning coffee for. These ground Loop demonstrations with treadmill and shopping cart having the best descriptions I've seen. Thanks for the work
Back in the day when I lived in upstate NY, we had five or six months out of the year we could not ride our Harleys. We would gather on Sunday afternoons in the local Haley shop and listen to engine runs by the mechanic and tell stories. Like you, it wasn't as good as doing it, but it helped pass the time. We miss the flying but, in the mean time, videos like this are good.. Thank you.
Trent you HAVE TO stop complaining about your own videos 😂
Just keep making them
Danger Industries - Word. I don't know who'd be expecting Trent to go flying in winter in a Kitfox which, as far as I can tell, is made of a clothes horse with a flag wrapped round it!
Trent - indoor videos are fine in winter, and you made a good investment of time in demonstrating with your little trolley thing and the treadmill - I'm sure there's now tons of your viewers have a good concept of ground loop, that wouldn't have got the same insight from just a technical description.
Came here to say this; these are really great videos. I enjoyed the last one about drones, and as an aspiring pilot who's being encouraged to learn tailwheel *first*, this is great, relevant content for me. Keep it up, Trent!
honestly I agree but making videos I just feel guilty when I can't upload a flying video all the time. But in reality, I'm a student and cant fly everyday. And Trent is wintering it out, he'll be delivering soon :)
@@K1lostream I'm fairly sure winter isn't the reason he is not flying, if i recall, there was a problem with a part of the kitfox that has been recalled and needs to be replaced before he can fly it again.
adm2204 if you have the opportunity to learn in a tail stagger 1st please do so. It will make a more conscious pilot. You will never regret that decision.
You don't scare me. I still want a Kitfox LOL. In all flying there is going to be mishaps and close calls anyway. Might as well have fun anyway and just learn from he hard knocks.
Look into avids too if the money is an issue. Theyre what the kitfox is based on. I bought one to learn in.. about half the price of a used midrange kitfox and there are multiple versions from STOL to speedwing (about 15mph faster but higher stall) to Magnums that have insane weight capacity
My initial flight training was in a Cessna 152, but I didn't fiish to Private at that flight school. I finished with a good ol boy country pilot and a Piper Colt. Still a tricycle, but many times more reactive then the 152. The Colt was like learning to fly all over again. I can remember my second instructor admonishing to get my hands off the alerons (speeling?) and use the rudder to control the level of the wings. Eventually I was able to learn how to do it, but it was not until years later after I could no longer afford to fly when talking to another old pilot that he explained the science behind using the rudder for levelling the wings that it fully clicked. Basically increase the air speed of the wing that is dipping. From memory? Step on the rudder that the wing is dipping? It has been over 30 years since I have flown pilot in command.
Excellent explanation @Trent Palmer Thanks for creating this.
Brasil 🇧🇷!💪👍
I love the fact that you used the EFlight UMX Timber from Horizon Hobby. My favorite RC plane.... when is HH going to make the Trent Palmer signature Kit Fox UMX plane????? Woo hoo! My aviation experience has only been with tail wheels (all RC that is).
Hi Trent, as a motorcyclist our saying is "If you ride, there are 2 kinds of motorcyclists, those who haven't crashed and those that will". I love all your videos! I'm always looking for the next one.
Take care!
I never had the desire to even try flying a tail dragger. I had enough trouble landing a tricycle gear aircraft when I was a student. Years ago I was helping put a fly-in together and met a guy with a BT-13 when he parked next to me on one of our $100 hamburger flights. I talked him into coming to our fly-in. He had just finished restoring the aircraft. After he arrived at our fly-in, he offered to give rides in his aircraft and donate the money back to our club. I got the privilege of loading and unloading passengers. On his first flight he came in hot and fast. I noticed that out of the corner of my eye and then I heard someone say “look at this”! I turned just in time to see him ground loop the aircraft, go off the runway, hit a berm, become airborne again and land in some trees below the airport which was a ridge top airport. Both the pilot and passenger escaped without serious injury, but it was scary to watch. We offered to give his passenger his money back, but with blood dripping down his forehead he just said “No, where else could I get a ride like that for $25. I admire tail dragger pilots, but it’s still not for me. Excellent video.
Just convinced me to keep my tri gear ! 😓
Can you please trademark the camera smack thing so other people stop doing it?
Jason Carter
Trent has it down to a science!!
If someone could Trademark it, he would!!!
Makes to a very nice ending to his Vlogs!! 🖐
LOL I had thought the same thing, and even discussed it with another of my favorite (and very popular) Vloggers. I was told Trent wasn't the first guy to do it; it's been around a while, and now it's gaining popularity... so the horse is kinda out of the barn.
@@goatflieg In that case, I propose that if Trent is looking for future non flying video topics, he do a documentary on the origin of the camera smack. Where did it come from? Who accidentally dropped a camera on their face to get the whole thing started? etc.
I think Tucker Gott was ahead of Trent on this one.
Gotta admit, I used it on my latest music video "I Don't Need This"... but that was because the very last thing I didn't need was the camera.
Do not apologise Trent by using the useful downtime to explain these vital tail wheel techniques is a good thing to make people aware,and yes it can catch even the most experienced pilot out I can lay testamant to this as seeing a well known aviation author ground looping his aeroplane in front of hundreds of people ! the shopping trolly syndrome in particular on short coupled aeroplanes like the SIPA Minicab can wreck the undercarriage and tear it away from its mountings just like your opening photograph shows,in the extreme it can place loads on the wing attachment points and even buckle wing struts as the side loads take effect,your rolling road model was an excellent demonstration by the way.
I few my first plane at the age of 8 in 1989, have been obsessed with flying ever since.
This is the single best explanation of ground looping I have ever seen.
Trent I started trying to get my private pilots license in 1996. So what that equates to is I ordered the sporty skit and started watching the videos and started falling asleep. Now the reason for this is my friend was a pilot and I flew with him all the time and he wanted me to get my license and start flying with him. I used to race Motorcross and quads. Anyway I’m 49 Yrs old now and I got my sportys kit out and started watching it again last night.
Ive been watching your videos and I think I want to get my license and start flying but the bush planes are what I like. You guys are my kind of people. Adventurous and I like that. I like the kit fox. Especially what you did with the upgrades. Anyway I have enjoyed your videos keep them coming. I’ll try to come to Oshkosh and meet the cowboys. Who knows I may be one soon! Later
Duncan Crittenden
Freeport fl
Love that demonstration on the treadmill! Very dramatic and a great eye opener! Thanks for taking the time to present this, much appreciated.
One of the best descriptions of the mechanics of a ground loop and why they continue to potentiate as loss of control continues. Stop apologizing, your vids are still good man!
Gread vid as usual trent, i recently converted to a tail dragger. All my pilot buddies told me i was crazy and beware of the ground loop. An instructor once told me, “dont be afraid of the monster under your bed” meaning dont create a monster where there isnt one. I have since learned “the dance” or that punch and jab you mentioned and have become a much better and proficient pilot leaving my buddies far behind with my new skill set. And if you want to play off airport and open up a whole new world, its the only way to go. Thanks again for the great content and inspiration. V
What a fantastic way to explain it! I've heard about ground loops many times (not a pilot, just interested) but have never seen it explained to clearly and simply and the treadmill experiment was a perfect explanation!
Good video, with generally good points. There is another arrow for the quiver (beyond rudder and brakes): USE ADVERSE YAW - from the AILERONS. In a developing ground loop, this is STICK TO THE INSIDE OF THE TURN. The additional drag of the lowered aileron, on the outboard wing, is corrective. Also, the lift is helpful for avoiding a wingtip strike.
Amazingly simplistic visual comparisons. Wish it was explained to me like that back in the day
It happened to me & my dad while landing in a weight-shift trike mounted on a zodiac (flying inflatable boat). The breakaway 180 degree turn was followed by a slow but unstoppable capsize into saltwater. No injuries, except the aircraft.
Ha ha ha, GREAT intro Trent! Great vid. I also need to add, that SUPERB explanation (and demo of the physics) of a ‘ground loop’ tells me that you’d make a great CFI too
That was a great example with your little model. Good job. Thanks that helped a lot.
I first heard the phrase "ground loop" when I was a kid at a small airshow outside of Phoenix, AZ in 1960 because a pilot had just done one in a P-47. It was a real eye-opener.
m.ruclips.net/video/iFvD7Ok0ghY/видео.html
The treadmill and cart, FANTASTIC examples. Way to teach!