I believe the concept used during the Cell saga is still a thing it the anime using that to induce drama and for the visual aesthetics! That is why there is no consistency in how they transform.
In the English dub Gohan tells Krillin he powers down to go to sleep for the night...though when Krillin throws that rock in Goku's Super Saiyan face he's definitely napping so...English dub retcon?
Hmm... Maybe its not that the super saiyan form make him resistant when he's asleep but that it is unconfortable to sleep as a super saiyan and even if he is as weak as a normal human when asleep(even transformed) he could still move sleeping, imagine the trouble if he accidentaly powered up in his SSJ form while dreaming? So I guess for him it's better to power down to base form Meanwhile Goku was trying to get as used as possible to the super saiyan form, which included sleeping while in the state, and he is less thoughtful than Gohan about sleeping I think
I think since gods like Zamasu are called kais in Dragon Ball, while destruction gods like Beerus are haKAIshin They could have simple called it Saiyan Kai, which also would reference Dragon Ball Kai Then Super Saiyan + Saiyan Kai would be Super Saiyan Kai, which in turn could be simply nicknamed "Blue"
The godly state should have always been named saiyan god instead of super saiyan god since the godly state is pretty much a base since it is just changing the nature of the mortal ki to a godly it doesnt matter if they used it all the time like their new base or not since it is a base al ready... the super saiyan blue should have been named super saiyan god since it is a super saiyan with godly ki... but since akira toriyama didnt thought of blue while making red we have the names as they are
The series was not supposed to end after the cell saga, the anime does this for drama nothing more! Unless u can show me in the Manga where Goku struggles to go SSJ then this is a moot point!
@@doc_s1krr751 Actually, no, that's a myth- the series part anyway. He was considering Gohan becoming the hero, but I'm pretty sure he decided his personality wasn't suited for it, but I'm not entirely sure. Him wanting to end the series after either Frieza or Cell was never said, though.
@@doc_s1krr751 Because the crap about Toriyama wanting to end DBZ after the cell saga has been debunked by Toriyama Interview and Geekdom101 a long time ago! That is why it is Moot!
They would be soo much stronger if they never left SS base form imo. Love that you made this video. Also, i definitely think the series would be in a way better place if they followed this videos points and Akira just needs to stop forgetting all these important details throughout the series.
I must say I disagree. It makes no sense to me why they would opt to stay in super saiyan 24/7 after already attaining mastery of the form. Training wouldn't be as effective, because their training wouldn't produce 50 times the results when training in ssj. If they train just as hard in their base form, they'll progress at the same rate. So when they do transform, they get fifty times the strength they fostered. Also, being in ssj isn't the same as being in base form. Even if the difference is negligible, like the difference between sitting, and a casual walk, it's still there. So even if they regain more stamina than they spend, they're still not getting their maximum amount of rest. This is shown when Gohan reverts to base after defeating Cell. Meaning there must be some cost to staying in ssj, no matter how small. There's also the point of controlling their power. It may be trivial for them to do, but why add the extra difficulty of being in ssj? Even if the effort is subconscious, it's still something they have expend effort to do. We also have to consider the strain on their bodies. Something as simple as feeling stressed can have major negative repercussions on your health, so something as flight or fight-esque as ssj certainly could. We don't know how saiyan biology works, or what long term effects it could have on their hormone balance. As for them straining to go into super saiyan, I think that's a pretty weak point. It doesn't add anything to your argument of why they should stay in ssj all the time. The strain is just a way of showing that they're powering up, to get the audience hyped. Do you mean to say they wouldn't have to strain to power up? Goku strained to power up to half power in front of Korin. And it's not like they strain every time they transform. There's many instances where Goku transforms with zero strain in Super. It all depends on whether they're powering up to fight, putting on a show, or just remaining suppressed in ssj. And while it's true that remaining in the state doesn't strain them, (which is why an exhausted Goku wasn't bothered by being in ssj versus Caulifla.) There's nothing to state that turning it on and off doesn't require any effort. Even if it's something small like making their back tingle. Overall, there's no day to day benefit for the saiyans to be in ssj outside of battle.
Knutty Entertainment Not to mention the character’s design being locked in their transformed state would kinda make the whole thing redundant from a design standpoint (Ik Frieda exists but you get the point)
I 100% agree. I think focus on powering up their base forms would be waaaay more important than only focusing on their powered up states. To be honest they shouldn't do much sparring wile in a transformed state. Pushing your base form to get stronger and stronger and practice meditation when in a transformed state to improve Ki control would be ideal...in my opinion. Imagine if they surpassed SSB in their base forms a basic Ssj transformation at the level would be immense.
I actually made this comment into a video on my channel. m.ruclips.net/video/BCxVwI_5yZ8/видео.html There's also two more points that I feel are important to mention: 1) Elder Kai told Goku to not be in ssj when using the potara earrings, as he would be stuck in ssj, and it would shorten his lifespan. 2) when Gohan fought one of the wolf bros during the ToP exhibition match, he got poisoned, and going ssj made that poison spread faster. This likely means that A.) Being in ssj raises his heartrate, and/or B.) The exertion likely puts stress on and/or takes the body's focus away from maintaining the immune system, likely also effecting the endocrine system in the long run. (E.G. heart virus gets worse when Goku turns ssj) These two corroborative pieces of evidence definitely prove that being in ssj long term isn't a good idea. I compare it to running. Running is a good way to build stamina, but after a point, long bouts of cardio have been shown to be unhealthy. After achieving grade 4, there's no benefit to putting consistent unnecessary stress on the body. Especially when most of their physical training seems to be built around bodybuilding, which is high res, low rep.
@@Supreme0757 They have surpassed SSB in their base. If we take present day Moro Goku, he easily surpasses his blue form in RoF up to probably Goku black arc. Even if we take base Goku at the end of ToP it should be comparable to the blue Goku at the beginning of ToP. His blue kaioken was stronger than his first omen after fighting jiren. He gets even stronger throughout the fight and by the end of it after Mastered UI his base should be insane. Every UI gives him an insane zenkai as shown in the series, and mastered UI should give him an even bigger zenkai because of the bigger strain on his body and the insane conditions required to activate it. (Beaten near death 3 times in the span of an 48 minutes, twice by a being stated to be stronger than gods of destruction.) It explains why Goku and vegeta fought decently well against broly in just base blue. (Broly stated to be as strong as a GoD)
I personally think it wasn't really needed. With Cell they had to stay constantly in the form to master it's energy usage. Since Cell was gone there would be no real reason to keep using ssj constantly. The form was already mastered so it was probably easier to just stay in base at that point. I also think that the form does still have a small energy drain due to the Tournament of Power and other situations. In most situations it would probably be easier and less straining in the long term to stay base and train that instead. If you stay Super Saiyan forever your base won't get much stronger. It would restrict Goku's growth if at the one moment he can't sustain it he loses a lot of his abilities.
@@Saint0999 Trying to stay SS for days/weeks doesn't grant Goku the potential to go SS3. Not only have we seen Goku training in base while dead, but he's never needed to stay SSG for such a long time to go SSB nor does his comments in the series indicate that's how you move up levels. You simply need better control of your inner power, hence SS3 Gotenks. The kid didn't even know how he went SS3. He was just powering up then bragged about the results, despite asking how to earlier on. Note: Dead bodies can utilize more energy than living ones and SS3 was something Goku was inexperienced using.
Machiyuu-gaming ye that’s what I meant. Mastering it doesn’t grant the power u just need to know the steps. It’s literally raw ssj power but not in a muscular way that’s y he is drained after using it but isn’t slow or out of breath
When Goku’s demonstrating the forms to Buu, SSJ and even SSJ 2 don’t show any strain at all. He just pops into the form instantly. Only SSJ 3 obviously required actual effort.
I think the reason Toriyama did away with it after the Cell arc was most likely because if SSJ was the new base then gone would be the days of Goku's iconic hairstyle and he feared the potential backlash that would have.
Super saiyan should not be base simply because there was no need to always be a super saiyan.... Goku and Gohan mastered super saiyan through grade 4 as training so that they could minimize ki consumption and body strain while maximizing the efficiency of the transformation. What’s the purpose to be a super saiyan at all times if you’ve already mastered the form and there’s no need to be transformed?
It makes sense because in z he was Constantly breaking things hurting chi-chi in his base form but in super this problem just went away because he gained more control over his power so he should be fine to do it in super just not z
I think instead of goku getting blue, he should've practiced the god form and mastered it, becoming his base form and ascending his god state into higher states of insane calmness, yet tense and always alert and powerful, until he reached pure bliss. Ultra Instinct.
Righteous one51 I think Ultra Instinct was introduced way to fast. He should have spent most of super mastering Normal SSG and SSB should have taken the place of Ultra Instinct.
That's basically what whis was getting at. He mentioned that unless they find a way to increase their base forms their transformations will reach a plateau. Ultra instinct is a technique not a transformations as well. That's why he was pushing for them to learn it.
@Exile Considering I understand where you're getting at because of how "rushed" the transition between BoG and RoF was, and the entire RoF saga, but you forgot Frieza spent around 5 months training to achieve his golden form
I think from a storytelling standpoint, it would have made sense for Gohan following the Cell Saga to revert, or more specifically, effortlessly transition back into his base form in order to either mask his energy, or to simply not stand out so much in public. Remember how during his match with Kibito, he went Super Saiyan 2, and a few people in the audience recognized him as the kid who fought Cell, even though he was 16 by that point? Had he remained a Grade 4 Super Saiyan for the seven years that followed the Cell Saga, then people would have recognized him immediately, because the whole world saw him on TV, and Gohan isn't that big a fan of the spotlight. That being said, I do think it would have been better if the story made it seem like he could turn Super Saiyan on and off at will with absolutely no effort. That way he could have sprung into action at any time, and he could focus his energy on powering up to Super Saiyan 2. And then, they could have transitioned into Gohan unlocking his ultimate potential, maybe by making the whole process more visual, like by showing Gohan slowly transition from his base to his Super Saiyan form and then to his Super Saiyan 2 form before finally gaining mastery over his true power. Gohan's story would have literally come full circle at that point. He would have gone from being this kid who slowly but surely tapped into the power of his Saiyan ancestry and gained total mastery of his Super Saiyan abilities, to a young man who now has all of his inner power and the experience he has gained at his disposal. This would have also been displayed visually with Gohan's appearance reverting to that of his base form, showing that he had a power all his own; a power that didn't rely on transformations, but rather his vast, almost limitless potential.
My personal head canon is that while Super Saiyan Grade 4/Full Power did consume the least amount of stamina it did still overtime consume more stamina than the standard base. The idea was to use the least amount of effort to get to that initial form to then be able to jump to higher forms more efficiently as they came along. Also in Super when Goku and Vegeta first started training with Whis, they both decided not to use their transformations but rather improve their base forms which would in turn make their transformations better
It makes sense why they don't use the form 24/7 I think during the buu arc and I think it was included in gt but, staying constantly in super saiyan no matter the condition greatly shortens one's life-span. And not just that, but it would've messed up not just power scaling and power system's later on in the series. But I digress.
@@dsg9648 I did my research again and during the cell arc Goku, Vegeta, And Trunks all made various statements on how super saiyan still consumes energy no matter the mastery which is why it can't be used as a base.
@@dsg9648 No he is right. It consumes ki no matter the mastery level and it was stated to hasn't your lifespan and health issues (why goku was hit with the heart virus while transformed)
@@dsg9648 in dragonball that's how energy is explained and super as well as a z had adapted that. Ki is one's life energy the new arc in the manga even goes as far as to constantly remind fans of this.
@@dsg9648 during the android saga ki is classified as life force when android 19 was draining Goku of his ki/energy. Gero stated that 19 was draining Goku of his life energy. And Gero stated that he would do so many times. Toriyama also stated so in a Daizenshuu file for DragonBal itself, Ki can be thought of or In some aspects be thought of as life energy. Our warriors just manipulate that life energy into a form known as ki.
2:44 No, it would not make Goten, Trunks, and Caulifla's easy attainment of the form any better. Because they'r be getting the *regular* Super Saiyan, not the *relaxed* Super Saiyan
Fool, he never said any better but less aggrovating. This is because we would have been used to Goku and Gohan's natural super saiyan transformation and so we wouldn't have been as pissed as we were in super because for us super saiyan would have been a regular, rather than a form attained through sheer rage. We would forget the mental trauma and anger required to obtain the form and thus be less 'aggrovated'.
If I remember correctly, shortly in the manga and expanded on in the anime episodes. After Goku and Vegeta managed to get every one of Majin Buu's victims out of his system currently at the time, they managed to stay in their Super Saiyan states while also making similar expressions they normally would in their base for which transitions when they are out of Buu's binary tracks and are full size again. They aslo managed to stay like that all the way up to when they are transported on the Kaioshin planet. They keep these states until they decide who fights Pure Buu (Kid Buu). So it would seem the concept wasn't fully forgotten, but now in Super the whole mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation has slipped the mind of the writers in the Dragon Room. RIP Super Saiyan Grade 4. Nice video today Carthu!
I thought one small detail was that the form did but strain on the body, just so minimal that if didn't really effect those within it. I think Gohan only went back to base simply because after going ssj2 and powering down his body needed as much energy as possible and thus he went back to base, its really just head cannon but that's the only possible way, other than "Toriyama just forgot" that I can think of
MSSJ is one of my favorite forms and it makes so much sense why this would be baseform. There's no ki drain and feels like a base form too. It's also strong. Imagine if Goku went Ultra instinct while Mssj
I know I'm a couple months late, but maybe we interpreted grade 4 wrong. Maybe the mastery over the form wasnt just the ease of accessibility and effortless maintenence, but also the ability to amplify the form at will. This would explain why Goku never seems relaxed while transforming, and why the transformation process is inconsistent. When in a position where he needs the strength he has to put more power behind the transformation, but when he feels that he can start of light, he can transform effortlessly, but with less of a boost. This would also explain why ssj1 cant be the base form. Because the form is a power multiplier, the users natural ability needs to increase without the form in order for it to be effective or even useful. That's why DBS ssj1 Goku is much stronger than DBZ ssj1 Goku. This also supports my first idea because by building up his natural ability he can make his grade 4 ssj1 transformation much stronger with more effort, or sacrifice some strength for a quicker, more stable transformation.
I think the reason that they've powered up and stuff to turn into Super Saiyan is because they're just firing themselves up like the elder kai said. And the reason Gohan was struggling in the resurrection f is because he hasn't practiced it and he might've forgot about it since he didn't train.
Well..sorta..The ssj form being base was meant so that they could go ssj without any strain its not meant to be a base form nor ever was. Goku and Gohan wanted to stay ssj for the 9 days so it isnt exhausting and it wokred out well since during the whole cell games they were ssj and Goku stopped being a ssj since he died and it already accomplish the goal of him going ssj with little to no effort, Gohan was able to go ssj just as well as Goku and yes he did struggle but keep in mind Gohan hasnt trained at all during the Resurrection of F and when he fights Piccolo for the ToP he goes ssj easily and also he hasnt used the form in a long time since he had been using his mystic form.
This is a really interesting point and i never thought about it that way. Yes it would have been cool to see ssj become the permanent base, now the question would be would ssj being the base affect strength gains obtained through training?
well an argument to power down out of SSJ could be during training, since it would, arguably be more effective to train in base than in SSJ, and with Gohan well, the guy got so weak out of not training at all that he lost the ability to go Ultimate and even SSJ2, it could be that after so much time with practically no training his progress with the SSJ form also reverted, as for Goku, eh they probably chose to animate it that way since it's more flashy, and it's still easier and faster than the transformation at the start of the Cell Saga he did against 19
I think the reason Gohan went back to base due to Chi-Chi not wanting him to be a quote-unquote "degenerate", meaning she didn't approve of him being Super Saiyan at all times and forced him to drop the form. Edit: Just realized that he also could have not wanted to be too recognizable by people as the Cell Games tournament was broadcasted and he wanted somewhat of a normal life.
I do agree with this 100% However I may be the only one to say this, but during DBS I was hoping ssj God would actually be Goku's and Vegeta's base form. Like they would have to go through the basics again while in good form (e.g Ssj Blue 1, 2, 3 etc)
I think probably the real reason is because the publishers didn't think that Super Saiyan would be as marketable if it just became the base form watching Goku and them transform into it over and over again is a cool scene that they can right to death to get make more money.
Cuz they'd be too op, goku and SPECIALLY GOHAN went from i dunno, weaket than imperfect cell? Weaker than androids 17 and 18? To goddamn half of perfect cells power levels of strenght for goku and mf ssj2 for gohan
@@weightacademy7834 I think goku would forget about base tbh, because I would too, and I probably would be struggleing to actually turn down a notch because it feels like I feel normal so because it feels normal there is no trigger to go back, because in retrospect and logical thinking, the mind accepts you now as comfortable enough and you instinctively forget about the fact that you had a former form, it's kinda like getting muscle mass tbh, once you start feeling like you did before you started doing a work out and you are in a comfort zone, you forget that you looked different.
@@guywithnohouse.6808 u cant forget, if someone knocks you out, in this show you automaticaly drop to base and you will feel what normal is again. If you dont have enough ki in ur body, you go to base again
Maybe it’s like SSJG being absorbed into his base form and all the power of transformations just slowly get absorbed into base so that the transformation will always be a higher level each time.
I had a similar idea myself wherein when you train as a ssj your base form make 50 times the gains luss creating a feedback loop ( especially when you are sparring with your training partner)
Well by now SSG should be base form for goku and vegeta while Ultimate for gohan and MSSJ for goten and kid trunks maybe even gohan in both Ultimate and MSSJ together
Well carthu the possibility of super saiyan being the new base is actually there and will always be there but the thing about that is that i think it is a little uneffective.... yes they get so used to the form they can use its strenght all they want but since it is not the base you are just adding to a multiplier and if you were to power down the base would remain almost the same since what i think would happen is that the additional strenght you got on ssj would be divided by 50 and it would have been like you powered up almost nothing...... but if you were to remain at the real base and added the same amount of power you added to the ssj then you would have a stronger ssj since the addition is before the multiplication instead of after the multiplication and therefore it would result in stronger transformations ....... although we know that saiyans dont train their bases that much.. the fact is still there that powering up the base is way more efficient than powering up the transformation because the power up will end up being exponential if you do so and plus you wouldnt have as much of a need to transform into stronger states since the weaker ones are enormously strong because of the tremendous base power..... like lets say if we grabbed goku gt and goku super...... if both had the same base power goku super would win by raw power but if we augment goku gt's base just enough so that the 500x multiplier of the super saiyan 4 gives him the exact same strenght as goku's super saiyan blue... then the result would end up on goku gt winning since he has no stamina issues and he would not need to transform as fast as goku from super since his base power would be able to keep up with some of the transformations of goku from super..... just like how future gohan had no problem training trunks who was on super saiyan while gohan was at base
After the Cell Arc, I've always gone with a two multiplier concept. When transformed in this state the multiplier to transform is significantly smaller, more than likely around x1.5 or something like that, but when powered up to full power, the multiplier is overall x50.
It matters. If you get 1 power level in base form it multiplies to 50 in Ssj If you get 1 power up in ssj it goes to 1/50 of a power level in base form. Base form should be super Saipan god because as you know it’s basically base form but with god ki.
Always thought that Gohan struggling to transform after unlocking the ultimate form was because he unlocked the ultimate form. He didn't need to use super saiyan so he didn't, and in the case that you don't use a skill for years. He was around 10-11 during the Cell Saga and then quit training and fighting until he attended school at about 15-16. Then from the Buu saga to Resurrection F, he's about 23 so 7 or 8 more years have passed. That's a lot of time to not use a skill and expect to stop have mastery over it. Also making Super Saiyan base would be a disadvantage to them. If I have a power level of 5 and go Super Saiyan, I'm now at 250. If I have a power level of 6, that jumps to 300. With all their transformations being multipliers, small gains in base are equal to if not greater than large gains in a higher form for the Saiyan's.
still waiting for Super Saiyan Blue Full Power and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2. and bulla has blue hair so you'd think she was born with the base form of Super Saiyan Blue Full Power :)
One of your videos showed up in my feed about the Saiyans being revived so I saw it and liked it , now this video showed up in my feed and it's pretty cool so might as well subscribe since you're putting out videos I'm enjoying
I always thought the fusion principle was why this didn't happen. Goku asked old kai if he should transform before fusing and old kai stated that it would be bad cuz staying powered up would shorten your life. That and chichi probably cant afford to replace cups and plates everyday.
Whis told them they’re other forms wont be strong unless they train in their base forms. And before that im assuming it was harder for vegeta to be gentle with his family, gohan stopped training and who knows what goku was doing while dead, probably how he found ssj3 since theres not much limits in other world. I would also think that being ssj forever would lower their life expectancy
And every new level achieved would be the new base. Lol image goku ssj3 throughout the entirety of the buu saga and the first episodes of gt or super, it would be weird.
Jdbeast 205 that’s not what’s said it’s like Goku absorbing god form into his base were saying that, the reason the strain is there is because he’s struggling to boost his energy when his base is way weaker. If his base has that energy then it isn’t a struggle to keep it and he would be fine
We have to remember that the man behind this doesn't even remember his own characters hair colors, it seems like everything is a repeat new idea for Toriyama but I would still think it would be a wise decision to make super saiyan base plus now inking will take less time overall
Once they learned grade 4 it should have been the goal to master each new transformation to that level. By the time they meet Beerus Goku should have been casually strutting around with level 3 hair.
Being in base makes training harder. Training in base form (not super saiyan) makes growth happen much more as its getting massive amounts of multiplication from the saiyans various forms. Making super saiyan their base just makes training less effective
If he trained in SSJ form his training would've been slowed, divided by 50, since super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier, if you gain one battle power in base, that's 50 in super Saiyan, if you gain one battle power in SSJ form, that's 1/50 of 1 battle power, meaning your ascended forms will get less power too
Good video, but I think you’re missing one key point. In the buu saga old kai warned goku to no try and fuse while in super sayain because the form over stresses the body and will overall shorten their life span. While the level of stress was greatly shortened by goku and gohan’s training in the hyperbolic time chamber. It would still have some level of strain and that’s why I believe it isn’t their base form after the cell games.
I see what you're getting at, but knowing what we know now about Saiyans and their transformations, it stands to reason that having Super Saiyan as the new base would be more of a hindrance than anything else, especially in regards to training since, at the end of the day, Super Saiyan is just a multiplier.
I... guess it didn't stop them from power-up and yelling to transform. I'm pretty sure Mastered SSJ is still in Super with instances of relaxing expression in Goku's SSJ face, and it can revert to non-mastered if the user is not trained for a long time. I don't find the concept abandoned and changed.
I'm pretty sure they stayed in it so they didnt waste power transforming into it, they didnt say that it would stop the strain of going into it just the strain of being in it and when that was like their base form the could power up from there.
Yeah I believe the creators did forget when it can to the Buu Saga. But I think the other reason why Gohan had a hard time going Super Saiyan was because after Goku died, and there was no immediate threat. His body got weak from the lack of training and not being in that form over the years, that he had to train his body to get use of the form again.
Didnt the elder Kai state in Z that if goku and vegeta fused as ssj it would sharply decrease the lifespan of Vegito? Wouldnt that mean that staying super saiyan your entire life can have adverse long-term effects?
I may be 3 years late, but think about the negatives of keeping SSJ as base form. First of all, the amount of power increase from training would be far less than if you trained in base. Because you’re training on a constant multiplier, the amount of increase is actually divided by the multiplier. For example, if your power level only increased by 100, you only need to increase your base form by 2 to match that. Unless it’s shown that training in forms is more efficient, long term it would make the saiyans much weaker. That’s only my opinion though.
I think it all follow the same problem: first frieza saga was supposed to be the end of Z, then cell's, then buu's. But now we have super. All of this super sayian base form was discarded in favor of the continuation of the show (don't forget, during frieza saga goku could read minds, but it was never seen again), and to keep progressing the show they have to discard concepts introduced in other sagas cause they were meant to represent goku at his peak, but they can't do that, they nees to put him in a constant state of growth to keep the show going.
Nah even the elder Kai tells them that if they stay as permanent ssj (as vegito) it would shorten their life span, The SSJ form no matter how much you master it will always stress the body for a short time Think of it like this Base form is resting SSJ is walking SSJ2 is jogging Ssj3 is sprinting Even if you got super fit and really really mastered walking, it would still stress your body out and if walked for the rest of your life and never rested.. well you would be dead prettt quickly
It’s not base because it would mess up the strength training dynamic since transformations are a multiplier to base power then it would make more sense to train in base rather than get stronger slower using a transformation since you would need stronger things to train against and even then if a Saiyan gets low on energy that revert back to base so if you trained a transformation then your base would have very little improvement if any at all and if your backs against the wall you still need strength not strength only at certain times
ssj2 isn’t even another transformation right? Neither is 3? Just different grades of the same ssj? But ssj2 is basically the perfect one Bc it’s mastered ssj but with a deeper understanding and unlocked power
The actual base form was the being normal with the kaioken technique, super Saipan was the awaking of the Kundalini, the super Saipan isn’t explain correctly the reason why they don’t go over the second.
I like to think it's because the z fighters like to keep their power hidden when they aren't fighting and it's hard to do while at ssj. Also it was shown Goku and Gohan had a hard time controlling their strength by breaking plates and glasses or accidentally hurting chichi. It's easier to stay a ssj in the time chamber where there isn't much damage they could do to anyone or anything
I'm surprised that they didn't do the same with SSG. Guess they knew Base form and Super Saiyan sells more. Also slightly infuriated SSG is a Super Saiyan form at all as opposed to just being a Saiyan form.
Ultimate Gohan transformation should be his base form .... elder Kai unlocked his power .. meaning all his potential is always out so there is no need for transformations .
I think that when goku died he forgot the way to maintain it due to not having a physical body and my guess is to gohan is that he quit training meaning weakening his power to the point where it could’ve deactivated the transformation
Maybe the permanent state of being in Super Saiyan grade four is only permanent as long as Goku or Gohan were both alive and have the stamina to keep it. Once they either die or deplete all stamina they would be returned to their original base form. Yet the effects are still in the Super Saiyan transformation since they seem to be able to hold the form for a really long period of time. Like in the Tournament of Power where Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan effortlessly against Universe Nine... Just my thoughts though god ki seems to be more reliable now then the traditional Super Saiyan forms (Exept for Super Saiyan Two and the occasional rage boosts). [Please don't get all hating on my thoughts]...
1. People like to see the black hair base form transform into a standing powered up form If ssj was base then we would lose the glammour when you see goku hair go from black to standing up as another color. 2. Ssj gets in the way of training at times. its better to train your base form. 3. Ssj has negativity in the heart so goku would not be able to form the spirit bomb. 4. You cant acually stay ssj all the time bc if you were acually unable to go back to base ssj would drain your life force to 0 and eventually you would die. Tho if you could turn back as you attempt to stay ssj forever you would lose the form before you acually die. And honestly i would not like for ssj to be base form of anyone.
I think that there's a defence between the Ssj form & the Ssj calm form While in the Ssj calm form the sayain can control his ki much better like he can low his ki so it can match almost 0
Carthu i had a empty spot in the dragon ball xenoverse 2 character's meun and i made you :3. I wasn't sure if character is human or Saiyan so i just used saiyan. Made super saiyan god might be a other option for a saiyan's base form considering of the what if you made: What if goku had god ki.
It sounds interesting but there is a flaw unlike Ultra Instinct or the Super Saiyan forms the Super Saiyan God Ritual is only can happen with six pure blooded Saiyans...
@@babarshah6479 yes but everyone on planet vegeta is a pure blooded saiyan and it was never stated that the 7 saiyans had to intentionally activate the ritual, therefore it is very well possible that bardock or any other saiyans could have activated the ritual unintentionally.
I have a theory of dbsbroly,do y'all remember when goku couldn't handle mui I believe he's body was affected cause when he was transforming into ssjb he was struggling harder than ever like it was his first time going blue
I always wondered what if ssj transformations were permanent? Goku would have reached grade 4 on yardrat. Goku, vegeta, and gohan probably would have found the grade 4 version of ssj2 by the beginning of the buu arc.
Why don't Goten or Trunks try it? They've turned Super Saiyan by accident before(Or at least Goten has),and it'd make Gotenks' instant SSJ3 a *little* easier to understand if his fusees are so used to the formerly incredible Super Saiyan form.
I think super saiyan still puts some level of strain on the body. It's like a professional runner or athlete in general. They can run a mile and look relatively unfatigued compared to the normal person. However, it will still raise their heart rate even just a little. Super saiyan is still not their natural state, it puts strain on the body to maintain it, they've just trained to the point where that strain is minimal. When an athlete doesn't train, they lose stamina, feats that were once a piece of cake are now a lot more difficult. Also, it would be a lot harder to control their power. Goku is already SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than every other normal person. It's his control that essentially keeps him from killing people just by touching them. So him being 50x stronger would make it that much harder to control. So I respectfully disagree, the series was right not to make them always walk around in super saiyan imo.
Goku has control over his body in ways that is literally not possible for a human being to do, youre using real world facts and attributing them to an alien with god powers. He has such mastery over his own ki to the point where he can stack kaioken on the strongest form he had available for the majority of super, so imo super saiyan can become base form. Especially considering that saiyans get stronger under pressure.
@@thomashoughton5270 yes he has an insane degree of mastery of his body and ki. However, super saiyan is NOT a saiyan's natural state. It's a mutation. That's just their biology. If goku is beaten unconscious he goes back to his base, if he stops training it becomes harder to access super saiyan, just like we saw with gohan.
@@infiniteimprovement No youre missing the point of this video, and what i said. By saying super saiyan is their new base, its not stating that they cant turn it off. Its stating that there is absolutley no difference between actual base and ssj, if he can sleep with the form activated im pretty sure thats a mastery right then and there. Also, i call that a plot hole with what happened to gohan, dude doesnt train a single day for 7 straight years and he can still go ssj2, to then training again, to then unlocking mystic and him somehow regressing to the point where he can barely turn ssj in what? A year? Maybe 2? Gohan is a putrid example and just a massive inconsistency
@@thomashoughton5270 I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. There IS a difference between base and ssj. When goku or any of the saiyans get beaten unconscious they go back to their base, because their body wants to conserve energy. Just like when a human is in critical condition their body protects their vital organs first. Regardless of how minimal super saiyan still puts some amount of stress on the body. At the end of goku's fight with jiren even he was struggling to go super saiyan. And even though the form puts 0 stress on the body, it still makes an already crazy strong character 50x stronger. Goku was struggling to eat dinner because he was breaking stuff, he tapped chichi and she went flying. Chichi was a martial artist much stronger than the average human, if that was the average human that would've killed them. So there'd be very little point in using it unless they were going to fight someone.
Yessss i agree, super just progressed too fast with the power ups, i think it should have taken the majority of the series for them to get used to God ki and learning how to use it in unique ways
Thank you. I think everyone at one time was getting used to SSGod form but then boom Blue, Ultra Instinct, Kao-ken... it's too much. Stay God and learn some abilities
And another thing that kinda broke the ceiling was the whole absorption of God into base, which was cool and all but maybe it should have been a temporary thing,
The stronger they get, the more powerful the regular super Saiyan will be. Remember it’s a multiplier of the base form. If this weren’t true, they wouldn’t use super Saiyan 1 at all.
yes it should have and i think in the anime version of DBS SSGod should alos become their new Base form as should the Ultimate state for Gohan my theory is that they transform into grade 1 and power up further into grade 4 and from there go to grade 5 or SS2 that'S why i think they still get the x50 boost in Base Power and then go from there to the Max of SSJ
No SSGSS? Vegata having the power on the Freeza arc? No Cell? What about the apes? No Ros'e? Does this mean Goku didn't need Kaioken? Just a few questions I have that no one needs to go hard on. Cause like, these are theoretical questions to this video.
Super Sayian isnt base because Chi-Chi doesnt want Gohan to look like a delinquent
chi chi racist to super saiyans
That's Not How Gohan Portrayed Himself
@@futuregohan4837 Stop acting like a hoodlum grandson.
@@Gettinoverbarrie no is just blonde is a sign of delinquensy in japan
as an asian kid im just gonna put it out there that 99% of asian parents are agaisnt bleaching/dying hair
This makes lots of Sense for at least all the Saiyans that have Super Saiyan 2.
I believe the concept used during the Cell saga is still a thing it the anime using that to induce drama and for the visual aesthetics! That is why there is no consistency in how they transform.
Goten and trunks don't
no it dosent cause they break things in life to life activites
ok
@@naahh3027 Ironically Gotenks does despite he always bypass SSJ2 when ever he gos SSJ (Grade 4) to SSJ3.
In the English dub Gohan tells Krillin he powers down to go to sleep for the night...though when Krillin throws that rock in Goku's Super Saiyan face he's definitely napping so...English dub retcon?
Hmm...
Maybe its not that the super saiyan form make him resistant when he's asleep but that it is unconfortable to sleep as a super saiyan and even if he is as weak as a normal human when asleep(even transformed) he could still move sleeping, imagine the trouble if he accidentaly powered up in his SSJ form while dreaming? So I guess for him it's better to power down to base form
Meanwhile Goku was trying to get as used as possible to the super saiyan form, which included sleeping while in the state, and he is less thoughtful than Gohan about sleeping I think
He probably powered down but had ssj look on him
It was controlled super Saiyan, not the one fueled by rage
I dont think he was napping i think he was just very relaxed
Dont u guys realise that scene was filler? It wasnt apart of the actual story
My head cannon is that Chi Chi didn't want to see Gohan with blonde hair.
@RedSplat Is this why ChiChi hates Launch and Mrs. Briefs so much?
Do you think that Super Saiyan God should have been a base form too? So it is just called Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue is called Super Saiyan God
Yes!!
Probably. I mean.....it has no problems that were stated
I think since gods like Zamasu are called kais in Dragon Ball, while destruction gods like Beerus are haKAIshin
They could have simple called it Saiyan Kai, which also would reference Dragon Ball Kai
Then Super Saiyan + Saiyan Kai would be Super Saiyan Kai, which in turn could be simply nicknamed "Blue"
Well that's what it is goku did absorb the power of God into Base
The godly state should have always been named saiyan god instead of super saiyan god since the godly state is pretty much a base since it is just changing the nature of the mortal ki to a godly it doesnt matter if they used it all the time like their new base or not since it is a base al ready... the super saiyan blue should have been named super saiyan god since it is a super saiyan with godly ki... but since akira toriyama didnt thought of blue while making red we have the names as they are
Pretty sure the answer is: the series was suppose to end after the Cell Arc so Toriyama wasn't thinking when he said those things
The series was not supposed to end after the cell saga, the anime does this for drama nothing more! Unless u can show me in the Manga where Goku struggles to go SSJ then this is a moot point!
@@sonnywoods6846 how is MY point moot, bud? Toriyama wanted the series (or at least Goku's involvement) to end after that saga
@@doc_s1krr751 Actually, no, that's a myth- the series part anyway. He was considering Gohan becoming the hero, but I'm pretty sure he decided his personality wasn't suited for it, but I'm not entirely sure. Him wanting to end the series after either Frieza or Cell was never said, though.
@@doc_s1krr751 Because the crap about Toriyama wanting to end DBZ after the cell saga has been debunked by Toriyama Interview and Geekdom101 a long time ago! That is why it is Moot!
Sonny Woods the series was supposed to end after the frieza saga
They would be soo much stronger if they never left SS base form imo. Love that you made this video. Also, i definitely think the series would be in a way better place if they followed this videos points and Akira just needs to stop forgetting all these important details throughout the series.
I must say I disagree. It makes no sense to me why they would opt to stay in super saiyan 24/7 after already attaining mastery of the form.
Training wouldn't be as effective, because their training wouldn't produce 50 times the results when training in ssj. If they train just as hard in their base form, they'll progress at the same rate. So when they do transform, they get fifty times the strength they fostered.
Also, being in ssj isn't the same as being in base form. Even if the difference is negligible, like the difference between sitting, and a casual walk, it's still there. So even if they regain more stamina than they spend, they're still not getting their maximum amount of rest. This is shown when Gohan reverts to base after defeating Cell. Meaning there must be some cost to staying in ssj, no matter how small.
There's also the point of controlling their power. It may be trivial for them to do, but why add the extra difficulty of being in ssj? Even if the effort is subconscious, it's still something they have expend effort to do.
We also have to consider the strain on their bodies. Something as simple as feeling stressed can have major negative repercussions on your health, so something as flight or fight-esque as ssj certainly could. We don't know how saiyan biology works, or what long term effects it could have on their hormone balance.
As for them straining to go into super saiyan, I think that's a pretty weak point. It doesn't add anything to your argument of why they should stay in ssj all the time. The strain is just a way of showing that they're powering up, to get the audience hyped. Do you mean to say they wouldn't have to strain to power up? Goku strained to power up to half power in front of Korin. And it's not like they strain every time they transform. There's many instances where Goku transforms with zero strain in Super. It all depends on whether they're powering up to fight, putting on a show, or just remaining suppressed in ssj. And while it's true that remaining in the state doesn't strain them, (which is why an exhausted Goku wasn't bothered by being in ssj versus Caulifla.) There's nothing to state that turning it on and off doesn't require any effort. Even if it's something small like making their back tingle.
Overall, there's no day to day benefit for the saiyans to be in ssj outside of battle.
Knutty Entertainment Not to mention the character’s design being locked in their transformed state would kinda make the whole thing redundant from a design standpoint
(Ik Frieda exists but you get the point)
I 100% agree. I think focus on powering up their base forms would be waaaay more important than only focusing on their powered up states. To be honest they shouldn't do much sparring wile in a transformed state. Pushing your base form to get stronger and stronger and practice meditation when in a transformed state to improve Ki control would be ideal...in my opinion. Imagine if they surpassed SSB in their base forms a basic Ssj transformation at the level would be immense.
Knutty Entertainment ur a fuckin genius
I actually made this comment into a video on my channel. m.ruclips.net/video/BCxVwI_5yZ8/видео.html
There's also two more points that I feel are important to mention:
1) Elder Kai told Goku to not be in ssj when using the potara earrings, as he would be stuck in ssj, and it would shorten his lifespan.
2) when Gohan fought one of the wolf bros during the ToP exhibition match, he got poisoned, and going ssj made that poison spread faster. This likely means that A.) Being in ssj raises his heartrate, and/or B.) The exertion likely puts stress on and/or takes the body's focus away from maintaining the immune system, likely also effecting the endocrine system in the long run. (E.G. heart virus gets worse when Goku turns ssj)
These two corroborative pieces of evidence definitely prove that being in ssj long term isn't a good idea.
I compare it to running. Running is a good way to build stamina, but after a point, long bouts of cardio have been shown to be unhealthy. After achieving grade 4, there's no benefit to putting consistent unnecessary stress on the body. Especially when most of their physical training seems to be built around bodybuilding, which is high res, low rep.
@@Supreme0757 They have surpassed SSB in their base. If we take present day Moro Goku, he easily surpasses his blue form in RoF up to probably Goku black arc. Even if we take base Goku at the end of ToP it should be comparable to the blue Goku at the beginning of ToP. His blue kaioken was stronger than his first omen after fighting jiren. He gets even stronger throughout the fight and by the end of it after Mastered UI his base should be insane. Every UI gives him an insane zenkai as shown in the series, and mastered UI should give him an even bigger zenkai because of the bigger strain on his body and the insane conditions required to activate it. (Beaten near death 3 times in the span of an 48 minutes, twice by a being stated to be stronger than gods of destruction.) It explains why Goku and vegeta fought decently well against broly in just base blue. (Broly stated to be as strong as a GoD)
Goku probably didn't bother working on staying SSj anymore while he was dead
Gohan definitely wasn't training
Yep that true
I personally think it wasn't really needed. With Cell they had to stay constantly in the form to master it's energy usage. Since Cell was gone there would be no real reason to keep using ssj constantly. The form was already mastered so it was probably easier to just stay in base at that point. I also think that the form does still have a small energy drain due to the Tournament of Power and other situations. In most situations it would probably be easier and less straining in the long term to stay base and train that instead. If you stay Super Saiyan forever your base won't get much stronger. It would restrict Goku's growth if at the one moment he can't sustain it he loses a lot of his abilities.
Machiyuu-gaming goku did. That’s how he got ssj3
@@Saint0999 Trying to stay SS for days/weeks doesn't grant Goku the potential to go SS3. Not only have we seen Goku training in base while dead, but he's never needed to stay SSG for such a long time to go SSB nor does his comments in the series indicate that's how you move up levels.
You simply need better control of your inner power, hence SS3 Gotenks. The kid didn't even know how he went SS3. He was just powering up then bragged about the results, despite asking how to earlier on.
Note: Dead bodies can utilize more energy than living ones and SS3 was something Goku was inexperienced using.
Machiyuu-gaming ye that’s what I meant. Mastering it doesn’t grant the power u just need to know the steps. It’s literally raw ssj power but not in a muscular way that’s y he is drained after using it but isn’t slow or out of breath
When Goku’s demonstrating the forms to Buu, SSJ and even SSJ 2 don’t show any strain at all. He just pops into the form instantly. Only SSJ 3 obviously required actual effort.
I think the reason Toriyama did away with it after the Cell arc was most likely because if SSJ was the new base then gone would be the days of Goku's iconic hairstyle and he feared the potential backlash that would have.
Super saiyan should not be base simply because there was no need to always be a super saiyan.... Goku and Gohan mastered super saiyan through grade 4 as training so that they could minimize ki consumption and body strain while maximizing the efficiency of the transformation. What’s the purpose to be a super saiyan at all times if you’ve already mastered the form and there’s no need to be transformed?
There is always a need for it, being in the form is all benefits, no negatives.
It makes sense because in z he was Constantly breaking things hurting chi-chi in his base form but in super this problem just went away because he gained more control over his power so he should be fine to do it in super just not z
Its the opposite Goku was breaking things and hurting chichi while he was transformed
Actually he did both
Nah he didn't get more power the plot was entirely forgotten
I mean can you blame toriyama? Dbz was years ago
I think instead of goku getting blue, he should've practiced the god form and mastered it, becoming his base form and ascending his god state into higher states of insane calmness, yet tense and always alert and powerful, until he reached pure bliss. Ultra Instinct.
Righteous one51 I think Ultra Instinct was introduced way to fast. He should have spent most of super mastering Normal SSG and SSB should have taken the place of Ultra Instinct.
That's basically what whis was getting at. He mentioned that unless they find a way to increase their base forms their transformations will reach a plateau.
Ultra instinct is a technique not a transformations as well. That's why he was pushing for them to learn it.
Joshua Fallet still, it would have made sense for SSG to have more screen time.
@Exile Considering I understand where you're getting at because of how "rushed" the transition between BoG and RoF was, and the entire RoF saga, but you forgot Frieza spent around 5 months training to achieve his golden form
ElectroBlastLuigi which is also dumb. How did Frieza catch up to them in 4 months?
Shouldn't God ki (red one) be Goku's base and Ultimate form be Gohan's base?
Neither are easy to sustain.
@@robloxtrolling1907 But they've been stated to be so
@@rewrose2838 When?
@@rewrose2838 god forms train stamina
And ultimate gohan is treated like a transformation now
@@user-gk6nt5gi5n But in Super during the bout with Beerus , wasn't it stated by Beerus that the God Ki got absorbed into Goku's base or something?
Just like in What if Broly was sent to Earth. After the Cell Arc, Vegeta and Trunks remained as Super Saiyans
I think from a storytelling standpoint, it would have made sense for Gohan following the Cell Saga to revert, or more specifically, effortlessly transition back into his base form in order to either mask his energy, or to simply not stand out so much in public. Remember how during his match with Kibito, he went Super Saiyan 2, and a few people in the audience recognized him as the kid who fought Cell, even though he was 16 by that point? Had he remained a Grade 4 Super Saiyan for the seven years that followed the Cell Saga, then people would have recognized him immediately, because the whole world saw him on TV, and Gohan isn't that big a fan of the spotlight. That being said, I do think it would have been better if the story made it seem like he could turn Super Saiyan on and off at will with absolutely no effort. That way he could have sprung into action at any time, and he could focus his energy on powering up to Super Saiyan 2. And then, they could have transitioned into Gohan unlocking his ultimate potential, maybe by making the whole process more visual, like by showing Gohan slowly transition from his base to his Super Saiyan form and then to his Super Saiyan 2 form before finally gaining mastery over his true power. Gohan's story would have literally come full circle at that point. He would have gone from being this kid who slowly but surely tapped into the power of his Saiyan ancestry and gained total mastery of his Super Saiyan abilities, to a young man who now has all of his inner power and the experience he has gained at his disposal. This would have also been displayed visually with Gohan's appearance reverting to that of his base form, showing that he had a power all his own; a power that didn't rely on transformations, but rather his vast, almost limitless potential.
My personal head canon is that while Super Saiyan Grade 4/Full Power did consume the least amount of stamina it did still overtime consume more stamina than the standard base. The idea was to use the least amount of effort to get to that initial form to then be able to jump to higher forms more efficiently as they came along.
Also in Super when Goku and Vegeta first started training with Whis, they both decided not to use their transformations but rather improve their base forms which would in turn make their transformations better
It makes sense why they don't use the form 24/7 I think during the buu arc and I think it was included in gt but, staying constantly in super saiyan no matter the condition greatly shortens one's life-span. And not just that, but it would've messed up not just power scaling and power system's later on in the series. But I digress.
The power scaling is already broken
@@dsg9648 I did my research again and during the cell arc Goku, Vegeta, And Trunks all made various statements on how super saiyan still consumes energy no matter the mastery which is why it can't be used as a base.
@@dsg9648 No he is right. It consumes ki no matter the mastery level and it was stated to hasn't your lifespan and health issues (why goku was hit with the heart virus while transformed)
@@dsg9648 in dragonball that's how energy is explained and super as well as a z had adapted that. Ki is one's life energy the new arc in the manga even goes as far as to constantly remind fans of this.
@@dsg9648 during the android saga ki is classified as life force when android 19 was draining Goku of his ki/energy. Gero stated that 19 was draining Goku of his life energy. And Gero stated that he would do so many times. Toriyama also stated so in a Daizenshuu file for DragonBal itself, Ki can be thought of or In some aspects be thought of as life energy. Our warriors just manipulate that life energy into a form known as ki.
2:44
No, it would not make Goten, Trunks, and Caulifla's easy attainment of the form any better. Because they'r be getting the *regular* Super Saiyan, not the *relaxed* Super Saiyan
Fool, he never said any better but less aggrovating. This is because we would have been used to Goku and Gohan's natural super saiyan transformation and so we wouldn't have been as pissed as we were in super because for us super saiyan would have been a regular, rather than a form attained through sheer rage. We would forget the mental trauma and anger required to obtain the form and thus be less 'aggrovated'.
It's all Chi Chi's fault. She didn't want her family looking like delinquents.
Yeah, since the gohan didn't want people see super saiyan to get flash backs to the cell games. Where though they were gonna die.
If I remember correctly, shortly in the manga and expanded on in the anime episodes. After Goku and Vegeta managed to get every one of Majin Buu's victims out of his system currently at the time, they managed to stay in their Super Saiyan states while also making similar expressions they normally would in their base for which transitions when they are out of Buu's binary tracks and are full size again. They aslo managed to stay like that all the way up to when they are transported on the Kaioshin planet. They keep these states until they decide who fights Pure Buu (Kid Buu). So it would seem the concept wasn't fully forgotten, but now in Super the whole mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation has slipped the mind of the writers in the Dragon Room. RIP Super Saiyan Grade 4. Nice video today Carthu!
I thought one small detail was that the form did but strain on the body, just so minimal that if didn't really effect those within it. I think Gohan only went back to base simply because after going ssj2 and powering down his body needed as much energy as possible and thus he went back to base, its really just head cannon but that's the only possible way, other than "Toriyama just forgot" that I can think of
MSSJ is one of my favorite forms and it makes so much sense why this would be baseform. There's no ki drain and feels like a base form too. It's also strong. Imagine if Goku went Ultra instinct while Mssj
I know I'm a couple months late, but maybe we interpreted grade 4 wrong.
Maybe the mastery over the form wasnt just the ease of accessibility and effortless maintenence, but also the ability to amplify the form at will. This would explain why Goku never seems relaxed while transforming, and why the transformation process is inconsistent. When in a position where he needs the strength he has to put more power behind the transformation, but when he feels that he can start of light, he can transform effortlessly, but with less of a boost.
This would also explain why ssj1 cant be the base form. Because the form is a power multiplier, the users natural ability needs to increase without the form in order for it to be effective or even useful. That's why DBS ssj1 Goku is much stronger than DBZ ssj1 Goku. This also supports my first idea because by building up his natural ability he can make his grade 4 ssj1 transformation much stronger with more effort, or sacrifice some strength for a quicker, more stable transformation.
Oh the new dokkan battle opening screen I see as the thumbnail
I think the reason that they've powered up and stuff to turn into Super Saiyan is because they're just firing themselves up like the elder kai said. And the reason Gohan was struggling in the resurrection f is because he hasn't practiced it and he might've forgot about it since he didn't train.
Well..sorta..The ssj form being base was meant so that they could go ssj without any strain its not meant to be a base form nor ever was. Goku and Gohan wanted to stay ssj for the 9 days so it isnt exhausting and it wokred out well since during the whole cell games they were ssj and Goku stopped being a ssj since he died and it already accomplish the goal of him going ssj with little to no effort, Gohan was able to go ssj just as well as Goku and yes he did struggle but keep in mind Gohan hasnt trained at all during the Resurrection of F and when he fights Piccolo for the ToP he goes ssj easily and also he hasnt used the form in a long time since he had been using his mystic form.
This is a really interesting point and i never thought about it that way. Yes it would have been cool to see ssj become the permanent base, now the question would be would ssj being the base affect strength gains obtained through training?
well an argument to power down out of SSJ could be during training, since it would, arguably be more effective to train in base than in SSJ, and with Gohan well, the guy got so weak out of not training at all that he lost the ability to go Ultimate and even SSJ2, it could be that after so much time with practically no training his progress with the SSJ form also reverted, as for Goku, eh they probably chose to animate it that way since it's more flashy, and it's still easier and faster than the transformation at the start of the Cell Saga he did against 19
I think the reason Gohan went back to base due to Chi-Chi not wanting him to be a quote-unquote "degenerate", meaning she didn't approve of him being Super Saiyan at all times and forced him to drop the form.
Edit: Just realized that he also could have not wanted to be too recognizable by people as the Cell Games tournament was broadcasted and he wanted somewhat of a normal life.
Very interesting Carthu 👍
I do agree with this 100%
However I may be the only one to say this, but during DBS I was hoping ssj God would actually be Goku's and Vegeta's base form. Like they would have to go through the basics again while in good form (e.g Ssj Blue 1, 2, 3 etc)
I think probably the real reason is because the publishers didn't think that Super Saiyan would be as marketable if it just became the base form watching Goku and them transform into it over and over again is a cool scene that they can right to death to get make more money.
@Carthu's Dojo, why didnt the Z - Saiyans work to make the higher SSJ and God forms like their base forms as well, like what they had done with SSJ1?
Cuz they'd be too op, goku and SPECIALLY GOHAN went from i dunno, weaket than imperfect cell? Weaker than androids 17 and 18? To goddamn half of perfect cells power levels of strenght for goku and mf ssj2 for gohan
Wouldn’t they forget how to untransform
I was about to say that
just go futher and power down
No lol,if he can drop from ssblue to base he can go from ss1 to base.
@@weightacademy7834 I think goku would forget about base tbh, because I would too, and I probably would be struggleing to actually turn down a notch because it feels like I feel normal so because it feels normal there is no trigger to go back, because in retrospect and logical thinking, the mind accepts you now as comfortable enough and you instinctively forget about the fact that you had a former form, it's kinda like getting muscle mass tbh, once you start feeling like you did before you started doing a work out and you are in a comfort zone, you forget that you looked different.
@@guywithnohouse.6808 u cant forget, if someone knocks you out, in this show you automaticaly drop to base and you will feel what normal is again. If you dont have enough ki in ur body, you go to base again
Making SSJ Goku's new base would mean doing away with his classic hairstyle of base form. They probably feared the potential backlash from fans.
Good video!! My only take away is how cool gohan looks as super saiyan 2 in the Great Saiyaman outfit lol
Maybe it’s like SSJG being absorbed into his base form and all the power of transformations just slowly get absorbed into base so that the transformation will always be a higher level each time.
I had a similar idea myself wherein when you train as a ssj your base form make 50 times the gains luss creating a feedback loop
( especially when you are sparring with your training partner)
Well by now SSG should be base form for goku and vegeta while Ultimate for gohan and MSSJ for goten and kid trunks maybe even gohan in both Ultimate and MSSJ together
Well carthu the possibility of super saiyan being the new base is actually there and will always be there but the thing about that is that i think it is a little uneffective.... yes they get so used to the form they can use its strenght all they want but since it is not the base you are just adding to a multiplier and if you were to power down the base would remain almost the same since what i think would happen is that the additional strenght you got on ssj would be divided by 50 and it would have been like you powered up almost nothing...... but if you were to remain at the real base and added the same amount of power you added to the ssj then you would have a stronger ssj since the addition is before the multiplication instead of after the multiplication and therefore it would result in stronger transformations ....... although we know that saiyans dont train their bases that much.. the fact is still there that powering up the base is way more efficient than powering up the transformation because the power up will end up being exponential if you do so and plus you wouldnt have as much of a need to transform into stronger states since the weaker ones are enormously strong because of the tremendous base power..... like lets say if we grabbed goku gt and goku super...... if both had the same base power goku super would win by raw power but if we augment goku gt's base just enough so that the 500x multiplier of the super saiyan 4 gives him the exact same strenght as goku's super saiyan blue... then the result would end up on goku gt winning since he has no stamina issues and he would not need to transform as fast as goku from super since his base power would be able to keep up with some of the transformations of goku from super..... just like how future gohan had no problem training trunks who was on super saiyan while gohan was at base
Nah they should have just trained they base form more cause look at broly
After the Cell Arc, I've always gone with a two multiplier concept. When transformed in this state the multiplier to transform is significantly smaller, more than likely around x1.5 or something like that, but when powered up to full power, the multiplier is overall x50.
It matters. If you get 1 power level in base form it multiplies to 50 in Ssj
If you get 1 power up in ssj it goes to 1/50 of a power level in base form.
Base form should be super Saipan god because as you know it’s basically base form but with god ki.
Always thought that Gohan struggling to transform after unlocking the ultimate form was because he unlocked the ultimate form. He didn't need to use super saiyan so he didn't, and in the case that you don't use a skill for years. He was around 10-11 during the Cell Saga and then quit training and fighting until he attended school at about 15-16. Then from the Buu saga to Resurrection F, he's about 23 so 7 or 8 more years have passed. That's a lot of time to not use a skill and expect to stop have mastery over it. Also making Super Saiyan base would be a disadvantage to them. If I have a power level of 5 and go Super Saiyan, I'm now at 250. If I have a power level of 6, that jumps to 300. With all their transformations being multipliers, small gains in base are equal to if not greater than large gains in a higher form for the Saiyan's.
1:30 Goku specifies that they would stop being SSJ while sleeping
I’m assuming that’s an anime only line as it isn’t mentioned anywhere in the manga.
Carthi how do you get these coloured dbz manga pagea
@@CarthusDojo It's in the manga. I don't know about the anime
@@CarthusDojo Read the manga
still waiting for Super Saiyan Blue Full Power and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2.
and bulla has blue hair so you'd think she was born with the base form of Super Saiyan Blue Full Power :)
Super Sayian God Super Sayian 2 is Super Sayian Blue Evolution. I think
nah Super Saiyan Blue Evolution is Ascended Super Saiyan Second Grade. i think
@@MasterFalkner hmm it actually is.
@@MasterFalkner it is, more like Super Vegeta but this time it's blue
In the manga, Goku already used full power ssb against zamasu
One of your videos showed up in my feed about the Saiyans being revived so I saw it and liked it , now this video showed up in my feed and it's pretty cool so might as well subscribe since you're putting out videos I'm enjoying
I guess Mastered SSJ, one of the coolest and most sensical concepts, just either became forgot or discarded for flashy transformation sequences. 😪
I always thought the fusion principle was why this didn't happen. Goku asked old kai if he should transform before fusing and old kai stated that it would be bad cuz staying powered up would shorten your life. That and chichi probably cant afford to replace cups and plates everyday.
Whis told them they’re other forms wont be strong unless they train in their base forms. And before that im assuming it was harder for vegeta to be gentle with his family, gohan stopped training and who knows what goku was doing while dead, probably how he found ssj3 since theres not much limits in other world. I would also think that being ssj forever would lower their life expectancy
Oh I got a new idea for an what if
What if super saiyan was base form xD
And every new level achieved would be the new base. Lol image goku ssj3 throughout the entirety of the buu saga and the first episodes of gt or super, it would be weird.
Or an Ultra Instinct Goku for the rest dbz, giving little to no dialogue lol
Mieung'deairl Deimauseu lol walking around in mastered ultra instinct lol
Could never happen it’s the transformating that puts the most strain on goku and it constantly drains energy
Jdbeast 205 that’s not what’s said it’s like Goku absorbing god form into his base were saying that, the reason the strain is there is because he’s struggling to boost his energy when his base is way weaker. If his base has that energy then it isn’t a struggle to keep it and he would be fine
We have to remember that the man behind this doesn't even remember his own characters hair colors, it seems like everything is a repeat new idea for Toriyama but I would still think it would be a wise decision to make super saiyan base plus now inking will take less time overall
Once they learned grade 4 it should have been the goal to master each new transformation to that level. By the time they meet Beerus Goku should have been casually strutting around with level 3 hair.
Being in base makes training harder. Training in base form (not super saiyan) makes growth happen much more as its getting massive amounts of multiplication from the saiyans various forms. Making super saiyan their base just makes training less effective
If he trained in SSJ form his training would've been slowed, divided by 50, since super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier, if you gain one battle power in base, that's 50 in super Saiyan, if you gain one battle power in SSJ form, that's 1/50 of 1 battle power, meaning your ascended forms will get less power too
Good concept man
Good video, but I think you’re missing one key point. In the buu saga old kai warned goku to no try and fuse while in super sayain because the form over stresses the body and will overall shorten their life span. While the level of stress was greatly shortened by goku and gohan’s training in the hyperbolic time chamber. It would still have some level of strain and that’s why I believe it isn’t their base form after the cell games.
I see what you're getting at, but knowing what we know now about Saiyans and their transformations, it stands to reason that having Super Saiyan as the new base would be more of a hindrance than anything else, especially in regards to training since, at the end of the day, Super Saiyan is just a multiplier.
its cool to see the transformation happen, everybody loves a cool
power up
I... guess it didn't stop them from power-up and yelling to transform. I'm pretty sure Mastered SSJ is still in Super with instances of relaxing expression in Goku's SSJ face, and it can revert to non-mastered if the user is not trained for a long time. I don't find the concept abandoned and changed.
I don't think that anyone wanted Goku to lose permanently lose his signature appearance.
I agree with this. It would have undoubtedly pushed them beyond their current limits.
I'm pretty sure they stayed in it so they didnt waste power transforming into it, they didnt say that it would stop the strain of going into it just the strain of being in it and when that was like their base form the could power up from there.
Yeah I believe the creators did forget when it can to the Buu Saga. But I think the other reason why Gohan had a hard time going Super Saiyan was because after Goku died, and there was no immediate threat. His body got weak from the lack of training and not being in that form over the years, that he had to train his body to get use of the form again.
And no dude when they fell asleep they went back to black hair
Didnt the elder Kai state in Z that if goku and vegeta fused as ssj it would sharply decrease the lifespan of Vegito? Wouldnt that mean that staying super saiyan your entire life can have adverse long-term effects?
I may be 3 years late, but think about the negatives of keeping SSJ as base form. First of all, the amount of power increase from training would be far less than if you trained in base. Because you’re training on a constant multiplier, the amount of increase is actually divided by the multiplier. For example, if your power level only increased by 100, you only need to increase your base form by 2 to match that. Unless it’s shown that training in forms is more efficient, long term it would make the saiyans much weaker. That’s only my opinion though.
They did it, and I honestly do believe this, because it's more dramatic to transform
I think it all follow the same problem: first frieza saga was supposed to be the end of Z, then cell's, then buu's. But now we have super. All of this super sayian base form was discarded in favor of the continuation of the show (don't forget, during frieza saga goku could read minds, but it was never seen again), and to keep progressing the show they have to discard concepts introduced in other sagas cause they were meant to represent goku at his peak, but they can't do that, they nees to put him in a constant state of growth to keep the show going.
Nah even the elder Kai tells them that if they stay as permanent ssj (as vegito) it would shorten their life span,
The SSJ form no matter how much you master it will always stress the body for a short time
Think of it like this
Base form is resting
SSJ is walking
SSJ2 is jogging
Ssj3 is sprinting
Even if you got super fit and really really mastered walking, it would still stress your body out and if walked for the rest of your life and never rested.. well you would be dead prettt quickly
So u gonna do “what if grade 4 wasn’t forgotten?” That shit would be dope
It’s not base because it would mess up the strength training dynamic since transformations are a multiplier to base power then it would make more sense to train in base rather than get stronger slower using a transformation since you would need stronger things to train against and even then if a Saiyan gets low on energy that revert back to base so if you trained a transformation then your base would have very little improvement if any at all and if your backs against the wall you still need strength not strength only at certain times
This would have been a good idea. I mean just imagine
the money that would have been saved by not wasting ink.
Please make a video on what if the saiyan race didnt enstenct
ssj2 isn’t even another transformation right? Neither is 3? Just different grades of the same ssj? But ssj2 is basically the perfect one Bc it’s mastered ssj but with a deeper understanding and unlocked power
The actual base form was the being normal with the kaioken technique, super Saipan was the awaking of the Kundalini, the super Saipan isn’t explain correctly the reason why they don’t go over the second.
I think for the sake of training, the base form is the best way,, boost their natural strength before adding the multipliers of ssj
I like to think it's because the z fighters like to keep their power hidden when they aren't fighting and it's hard to do while at ssj. Also it was shown Goku and Gohan had a hard time controlling their strength by breaking plates and glasses or accidentally hurting chichi. It's easier to stay a ssj in the time chamber where there isn't much damage they could do to anyone or anything
I'm surprised that they didn't do the same with SSG. Guess they knew Base form and Super Saiyan sells more. Also slightly infuriated SSG is a Super Saiyan form at all as opposed to just being a Saiyan form.
Ultimate Gohan transformation should be his base form .... elder Kai unlocked his power .. meaning all his potential is always out so there is no need for transformations .
Lol just had to read the title to like and agree, makes no sense that if super saiyan takes no effort for it not to be base form
I think that when goku died he forgot the way to maintain it due to not having a physical body and my guess is to gohan is that he quit training meaning weakening his power to the point where it could’ve deactivated the transformation
Carthu can you make a what if where chichi wanted gohan to be a fighter pls I want to see that happens
my head canon is that the dramatic supersaiyan transformations are for fun
Maybe the permanent state of being in Super Saiyan grade four is only permanent as long as Goku or Gohan were both alive and have the stamina to keep it. Once they either die or deplete all stamina they would be returned to their original base form. Yet the effects are still in the Super Saiyan transformation since they seem to be able to hold the form for a really long period of time. Like in the Tournament of Power where Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan effortlessly against Universe Nine...
Just my thoughts though god ki seems to be more reliable now then the traditional Super Saiyan forms (Exept for Super Saiyan Two and the occasional rage boosts).
[Please don't get all hating on my thoughts]...
1. People like to see the black hair base form transform into a standing powered up form
If ssj was base then we would lose the glammour when you see goku hair go from black to standing up as another color.
2. Ssj gets in the way of training at times. its better to train your base form.
3. Ssj has negativity in the heart so goku would not be able to form the spirit bomb.
4. You cant acually stay ssj all the time bc if you were acually unable to go back to base ssj would drain your life force to 0 and eventually you would die. Tho if you could turn back as you attempt to stay ssj forever you would lose the form before you acually die.
And honestly i would not like for ssj to be base form of anyone.
Holy shit goku was in ssj grade 4 when he clapped those chi-cheeks
I think that there's a defence between the Ssj form & the Ssj calm form
While in the Ssj calm form the sayain can control his ki much better like he can low his ki so it can match almost 0
Then Gohan would have been found out by Videl earlier as the golden worrier back in the Buu saga.
Carthu i had a empty spot in the dragon ball xenoverse 2 character's meun and i made you :3. I wasn't sure if character is human or Saiyan so i just used saiyan. Made super saiyan god might be a other option for a saiyan's base form considering of the what if you made: What if goku had god ki.
Do what if bardock accidentally triggered the super saiyan god ritual and killed Frieza
It sounds interesting but there is a flaw unlike Ultra Instinct or the Super Saiyan forms the Super Saiyan God Ritual is only can happen with six pure blooded Saiyans...
@@babarshah6479 yes but everyone on planet vegeta is a pure blooded saiyan and it was never stated that the 7 saiyans had to intentionally activate the ritual, therefore it is very well possible that bardock or any other saiyans could have activated the ritual unintentionally.
There are too many bad saiyans at that era and you need 6 people with saiyan blood for you to tap into ssjg
@@naluanj9628 that is true but there were pure hearted saiyans because the original ssjg used the ritual
@@roninphan3161 kay
I have a theory of dbsbroly,do y'all remember when goku couldn't handle mui I believe he's body was affected cause when he was transforming into ssjb he was struggling harder than ever like it was his first time going blue
I always wondered what if ssj transformations were permanent? Goku would have reached grade 4 on yardrat. Goku, vegeta, and gohan probably would have found the grade 4 version of ssj2 by the beginning of the buu arc.
Heck maybe goku would even have even gotten rid of the stamina drain of ssj3 by the buu arc
Why don't Goten or Trunks try it?
They've turned Super Saiyan by accident before(Or at least Goten has),and it'd make Gotenks' instant SSJ3 a *little* easier to understand if his fusees are so used to the formerly incredible Super Saiyan form.
I think super saiyan still puts some level of strain on the body. It's like a professional runner or athlete in general. They can run a mile and look relatively unfatigued compared to the normal person. However, it will still raise their heart rate even just a little. Super saiyan is still not their natural state, it puts strain on the body to maintain it, they've just trained to the point where that strain is minimal. When an athlete doesn't train, they lose stamina, feats that were once a piece of cake are now a lot more difficult.
Also, it would be a lot harder to control their power. Goku is already SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than every other normal person. It's his control that essentially keeps him from killing people just by touching them. So him being 50x stronger would make it that much harder to control. So I respectfully disagree, the series was right not to make them always walk around in super saiyan imo.
Goku has control over his body in ways that is literally not possible for a human being to do, youre using real world facts and attributing them to an alien with god powers. He has such mastery over his own ki to the point where he can stack kaioken on the strongest form he had available for the majority of super, so imo super saiyan can become base form. Especially considering that saiyans get stronger under pressure.
@Xavier Thomas exactly what I wanted to say.
@@thomashoughton5270 yes he has an insane degree of mastery of his body and ki. However, super saiyan is NOT a saiyan's natural state. It's a mutation. That's just their biology. If goku is beaten unconscious he goes back to his base, if he stops training it becomes harder to access super saiyan, just like we saw with gohan.
@@infiniteimprovement No youre missing the point of this video, and what i said. By saying super saiyan is their new base, its not stating that they cant turn it off. Its stating that there is absolutley no difference between actual base and ssj, if he can sleep with the form activated im pretty sure thats a mastery right then and there. Also, i call that a plot hole with what happened to gohan, dude doesnt train a single day for 7 straight years and he can still go ssj2, to then training again, to then unlocking mystic and him somehow regressing to the point where he can barely turn ssj in what? A year? Maybe 2? Gohan is a putrid example and just a massive inconsistency
@@thomashoughton5270 I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. There IS a difference between base and ssj. When goku or any of the saiyans get beaten unconscious they go back to their base, because their body wants to conserve energy. Just like when a human is in critical condition their body protects their vital organs first. Regardless of how minimal super saiyan still puts some amount of stress on the body. At the end of goku's fight with jiren even he was struggling to go super saiyan. And even though the form puts 0 stress on the body, it still makes an already crazy strong character 50x stronger. Goku was struggling to eat dinner because he was breaking stuff, he tapped chichi and she went flying. Chichi was a martial artist much stronger than the average human, if that was the average human that would've killed them. So there'd be very little point in using it unless they were going to fight someone.
I think ssg(red) should still be the ceiling. The power scaling would be so much better if they were still trying to figure out ssg Red.
Yessss i agree, super just progressed too fast with the power ups, i think it should have taken the majority of the series for them to get used to God ki and learning how to use it in unique ways
@@darrellsimon4462 Exactly. The ceiling got way too high way too fast
@@WolfofWexlerStreet yhhh i mean especially now with ultra instinct its just too much man
Thank you. I think everyone at one time was getting used to SSGod form but then boom Blue, Ultra Instinct, Kao-ken... it's too much. Stay God and learn some abilities
And another thing that kinda broke the ceiling was the whole absorption of God into base, which was cool and all but maybe it should have been a temporary thing,
The stronger they get, the more powerful the regular super Saiyan will be. Remember it’s a multiplier of the base form. If this weren’t true, they wouldn’t use super Saiyan 1 at all.
yes it should have and i think in the anime version of DBS SSGod should alos become their new Base form as should the Ultimate state for Gohan
my theory is that they transform into grade 1 and power up further into grade 4 and from there go to grade 5 or SS2 that'S why i think they still get the x50 boost in Base Power and then go from there to the Max of SSJ
No SSGSS?
Vegata having the power on the Freeza arc?
No Cell?
What about the apes?
No Ros'e?
Does this mean Goku didn't need Kaioken?
Just a few questions I have that no one needs to go hard on. Cause like, these are theoretical questions to this video.