Difficult to tell though. If you watch Josh's "history of missing episodes" trilogy some of the means by which films have appeared are fairly implausible :)
Regarding film print deterioration: While it is a serious concern, there is plenty of reason to be optimistic. The missing footage from Metropolis (1927) was recovered in watchable (if rough) state in 2008. For something a bit more recent than missing Doctor Who, the theatrical cut of The Big Boss (1971) was rediscovered and released in 2023. And while the missing footage stands out from what was not lost, it still got a well-received 4K release. While the clock is ticking on degradable media, time may yet be on our side.
And I'm afraid it also comes down to the kind of material. Metropolis was on film, most of the movies and television worldwide is on film, while British television is almost all on tape. How does this affect the reels' durability?
@@sabrinatirabassi3529 All the tapes were wiped ages ago and reused as cost-cutting measure. All the lost Doctor Who recoveries were film copies, typically meant for foreign broadcast.
The Metropolis case shows that in some cases of Lost Media, the question wether it can be found is just a matter of Luck. You see, until 2008, the owner of the Metropolis Tape had no Idea that the Original Cut was Lost Media at the time.
Not all private collectors keep their copy because it's rare, I think it's more about having trust issues with the BBC. I recently saw some people arguing about it in some forum years ago and the reason why some of them didn't give their DW episodes are simply because: - They are afraid of not getting their copy back - They want to remain anonymous - Not getting treated kindly by the fans - They don't get enough or any thanks for bringing the episode back It's not just about it's rarity, it's more about trust and I had read in the forum that private collectors known each other, so if you attract negative attention from anyone of them, that's basically it for you, because word of it gets around among them. Also sorry if my grammar is bad, I'm not an english speaker.
This happens in the video game preservation community too. There's lost prototype arcade games that people refuse to dump and distribute. One infamous one only had 3 copies that existed in the world, and one owner would take theirs to conventions to let people play it, but not distribute it. It eventually leaked online, according to the owner someone who they hired to maintain their machine dumped the board without their permission. Because of this, Atari actually were able to rerelease the game digitally in an official capacity. It may have been a "stolen copy" but that meant that Atari now had access to a game they previously lost and still legally owned. Thankfully it is now available officially and legally to anyone who wants to buy and play it.
@TheYellowShyGuy it's a very interesting story of a publisher needing to use illegal copies of a game to distribute them legally. Atari as a company has changed ownership so many times over the past 50 years that a lot of stuff has been lost, even if they still own the right. This was a great way for them to get access to one of those things that they had lost in the years of transferring ownership.
Yep it's very interesting that when things are recovered some people just hoard it. The NES SimCity prototype took ages to get dumped and released, and even rarerer things definitely exist but people just hold onto them for whatever reason.
As one who watched "An Unearthly Child" when it first aired (Delayed by the Kennedy Assassination) If I happened to encounter a missing episode of Doctor Who (Or "A for Andromeda," or other important series), I would immediately do everything within my power to get it back to the BBC, just cover the packing and shipping cost. The irony is that, considering these various hoaxes, with my being a Nobody, I'd have great trouble getting anyone to accept that I DO have such! And I know about hoarders -- a fellow stole all the Al Jolson sequences (on 78 and 33 1/3 transcriptions) for the Paul Whiteman Kraft show of 1935, from Williams College. There were desperate attempts to get the material back, the fellow died, and the episodes were trashed by the family, with highly desirable musical history gone for all time.
It is so bizarre to me that only a couple of seconds exist of one of the French Revolution episode. Why would you record 5 seconds and nothing else? And another, where 7 minutes exist of it. So strange.
It is very hopeful that of web of fear 3 is still existing. It went missing from the TV station in Nigeria just before Philip Morris could arrange for the films of the web of fear to be returned to the BBC in 2013
4:25 "The true story may have been lost to time" The idea that an attempt to preserve the past, the story of what happened or which version is true potentially being lost is a great statement on how quickly and often we need to be concerned about the preservation of history.
It’s impossible to be objective with the past. First hand accounts are always biased, with two people contradicting each other. It’s about finding the truth in the middle
@@JoshSnares This is true and it's also possible for people to forget certain details with time, as the story they remember slowly becomes more and more of a haze.
It's like how Hbomberguy talks about how people are already rewriting much of the early history of gaming and getting their versions of events (normally self promoting) out there as the true stuff. Also how, for example, audio in early Japanese games was often made by women but was seen as kind of shameful work so they used false names. Which is one of the reasons why people aren't aware of pioneering women in gaming.
About the private collectors part: There are a few reasons why people don't return the episodes back to the BBC. The main reason why they hold on to the material is because they do not own them and they could be sued by the BBC. I don't think the BBC would do that and I'm pretty sure they'd be happy just getting it back, but it worries these collectors. The second reason is that collectors just doesn't trust the BBC. The last person to have an episode of "Dad's Army" sat on it for decades because the person thought it would just get junked. And then there are also people who don't even know they have a missing episode or don't know that Doctor Who episodes are missing! I remember reading that someone had all the episodes of The Celestial Toymaker but threw them away after watching them, because he thought the episodes where terrible and he didn't wanna keep them. He didn't knew the episodes were missing.
I'm glad you're back and feeling better! I think we'd have a better shot of developing relationships and maybe, hopefully, convincing collectors to return missing episodes to the BBC if we could just be *normal*. Don't be weird! Don't threaten people by printing magazines that say someone is "hard to track down" or wanting to shake people if they could just get a hold of them, etc. Develop positive relationships with the collecting community and maybe we'll get some stuff ffs
Always a delight to see you Josh. It's 7am here in Brazil and I haven't slept yet, I just had to watch this. Here's hoping that guy that said he has one episode of Marco Polo is telling the truth!
Great video Josh on everyones favourite subject, love anything ME related. This takes me back, I remember reading all these rumours back in the day. Glad you are feeling better. Take care and "Keep Warm" :-) - Also ALL HAIL MILO CLANCEY
What's a good strategy for politely asking the owner of a potential missing episode to kindly share it? (It's so scary how accurate your description is. A coworker of mine let it slip that their father owns something "rare and lost". I only ever enquired once as to what it was but because neither her nor her father were actual fans of Doctor Who, she's not sure. From what I could gather it sounded like a TV reel of an episode of The Mind Robber which, if true, isn't exciting or even missing. And yet I've never stopped imagining this guy who inherited alot of old broadcasting stuff might be sitting on a gold mine)
I've always been curious about that Britbox listing error, having episodes like The Myth Makers 2 and 4 and Celestial Toymaker 2 on there. A part of me feels like some disgruntled missing episode researcher who knew what some private collectors had just said "We have these!" to Britbox just to get the word out there.
One of my friends has an entire theory about this involving the fact it may be legit and honestly there's some merit to the evidence that was presented but who knows
I agree it is great see whotube classic era archivist back I say that cause josh is the only one I have found who does primarily the classic era and I’m grateful cause I love watching the whole series not just the revival and most of the other do the revival
You're bang on about the collector hoarders. The exclusivity is the most important thing to them, which is even sadder when you consider that if it was returned to the BBC, they would take a copy for the archive and then return the original to the owner (at least, that's my understanding of how these things go), so they would still possess the original film/video reels.
People who collect things, but don't use them... That's genuinely insanity. It's just hoarding for people who think imagined monetary value that will never be cashed in on outweighs the actual value of having something in the first place: putting it to use. I don't think they're malicious, I think they're mental.
Always look forward to seeing new stuff from you regardless of how often you upload, interesting and informative as always. Hope you're feeling much better than when you were earlier in the year. I look forward to the next video and set of stories and fun facts you have no matter how far off that may be :)
WAAAAAAAAY before you were born..... Back in the mid 80's, there was a guy from Blackpool who used to put adverts in "Exchange & Mart", offering VHS copies of Tenth Planet pt4 for £200 (which was a LOT of money back then), but he never would send out a clip as proof, nor let anyone visit him to see if it was real or not. Needless to say it still hasn't been seen by anyone....
It really is difficult to explain today how rumour and innuendo could spread unchecked and unchallenged in a world before greater connectivity. Even today it's difficult to control. Which is why fan myths are still repeated today. And the 1980s really were a hotbed for 'characters' who drew their importance from being big fishes in a small pond. This inevitably had an effect on how the BBC - and those involved in the production - viewed the fanbase. One of the most positive outcomes of the post-2005 era is seeing the show open up and being widely appreciated by enthusiasts that don't have an axe to grind - unless your life is spent on Gallifrey Base - for a given definition of life...
I also feel like maybe some collectors worry about how they'll be viewed by fans if they don't return it or it takes ages for them to do so. they might just get a lot of angry messages from fans
I think that's one of the least likely scenarios, people don't even know or need to know who they are. They're keeping it to themselves, only a small amount of people ever know about these guys
Great to see you back, Josh. I implore anyone out there with missing episodes to please return them to the BBC for restoration and preservation, and so they can be enjoyed by a wider audience as first intended. Meanwhile, the good news is that the animated Underwater Menace will be released November 2023!
I agree even if they lend them to the bcc for copying if they don’t want to give up the master tapes cause hoarding them to me isn’t being a fan cause a fan should be willing to share their love for the doctor with other fans
Excellent video - thanks. Regarding the secret hoarding of lost episodes, and the collectors' motives for doing it, I think it's pretty easily explained. Sadly, we've all met fans whose attitude to the material is proprietorial. The attitude is most obvious among fans with a higher profile than the rest but not, I suspect, exclusive to them.
The thing I don't understand is that, if they really do own copies of these lost episodes and they are hoarding them because it gives them an ego trip, why wouldn't they provide some evidence? Even if it's just a few seconds of grainy video on an old CRT that they recorded with a smartphone? Absent any evidence, my default assumption is that such claims are false and people are just lying to gain attention. So if their motivation is purely ego-driven, shouldn't they want to prove me wrong?
@@GeoffTrowbridge Well, now that some of the more seasoned episode hunters seem to have identified individuals with lost episodes, it might be that those hoarders are happy to be known only among the Higher-Ups, who will have their own (not necessarily dishonourable) reasons for withholding further info from the rest of us. They're up on that rarefied stratum of fandom: the holders of secret knowledge. I've encountered the kind of ego that could get off on that. I'm speculating wildly of course. Not meaning to sound bitter and twisted either. Those in the know may have good reasons for not forcing the issue. When the latest stories of more episodes being out there began to sound credible, I was just glad at the possibility that a few more had escaped the skip. If I found a lost episode, I'd be happy to tick the box marked Full Publicity but again, that's still an ego-driven thing!
It is bittersweet knowing that some episodes could still be out there in collections but won't be returned. Who knows what could exist out there? The worst is "The Web of Fear" pt 3. where you know the person who took it understood exactly what it was (first appearance of the Brig,) then either hoarded, or more likely sold it. The sad truth is most there probably aren't many more episodes to recover, it's been 12 years since the last find. But, like the Doctor, we must choose to live in hope.
@@tardis221space Actually, the episodes were found in 2011, but only returned to the BBC in 2013. (Though I suspect they delayed announcing the find to line up with the 50th.)
@@crimsong8068 IIRC the reason for the delay was partially government red tape and partially because WoF 3 went missing and Phil was hoping to be able to somehow secure it.
@@MSDOSProject I've also heard that film is considered flammable material, so certain clearances would have to be granted first. I'm glad the episodes were found.
@@crimsong8068 Nitrate film is certainly flammable and apparently become toxic as it decays. That wouldn't affect Doctor Who though, which has usually been shot on videotape, plus nitrate use ended in the 50s.
@@JoshSnares Can't help but notice the recent news of missing Doctor Who episodes being found in private collections. Coincides with you reappearing and this very specific video. We love you, Josh... Even if you are _enemy to all Doctor Who fans!_
"Never say never" - yeah... except for "The feast of Steven". There is no chance this one will ever turn up again. The tape for the episode was wiped September 17th 1967 and was no official film copy made because it was never meant to be broadcast anywhere ever again. 1967 means there is no way for someone to have made a copy directly to any type of consumer video tape or taped it at home. So if there was a copy it would have been a telerecording. Copied to film with one of those special TV to camera devices. This would have been either done officially but not documented, which would be strange. Or someone would have made a copy in secret which means this person had access to the tapes and the recorders and everything without anyone knowing (or caring to report them). The filmstock would have either been taken from and later developed inside the BBC which seems risky as well or the person brought their own material and got it developed provately or did it themselves. They would need to do this twice as the first one would be a negative from which a print needs to be struck to watch it. Something like this is not cheap and never was very cheap. The chance that someone would have done this is so tiny. I would like to be proven wrong but I don't think there is a chance for this one.
Honestly, I'm just happy with what we have these days. We could have had nothing, but instead we're missing less than 100 episodes. (I am still hoping for 5-10 more, but I don't think more than that will ever be found.)
Wow what a coincidence. Josh releases another video relating to the missing episodes and around the same time, we get an announcement of The Underwater Menace getting animated!
I full agree with what you think, Josh. At the end, anyways. I do hate people that keep the episodes to themselves, I DO think they do it to get the fans off. But I at least hope that they're taking care of the prints and that we'll see them someday. In private hands is better than destroyed. I just wish we knew which episodes, and had plans for the owner's death.
I feel like we only hear these hoaxes about Tenth Planet 4 or Evil of the Daleks. No one pretends to have all the missing episodes of The Space Pirates
Sorry you've been sick. Post when you feel like it. You will find an audience. I keep hope that some more missing episodes will turn up, but it's unlikely that all the missing episodes will ever be found. Some are likely just lost to space and time. But just one more episode of Galaxy 4, or the Space Pirates, or The Underwater Menace, or Marco Polo, etc. might change they way we view those stories. Hope burns bright - but light and heat deteriorate film. Here's hoping!
In the case of some private collectors, some might not even know that the tape is highly sought after, like in the case of the owner of Galaxy 4 episode 3 and Underwater Menace episode 2. I really hate those who know the tape is valuable, and keep it for themselves. It’s so greedy and selfish.
So happy that Underwater Menace ep. 2 exists. It's got the most unhinged and disturbed villain cliffhanger in the Classic Doctor Who, in my opinion: "Shoot those men! *BLAM BLAM* NOTHING IN THE WORLD CAN STOP ME NOW!!" *credits*
Excellent video Josh! It's so frustrating that hoaxes pop up and get fans' hopes up. The same frustration in knowing that there are missing episodes of Doctor Who out there that may never be returned, but I try not to worry too much about that and be grateful for what does exist because it could have been so much worse!
Roger K. Barrett was the legal name of `Syd` Barrett (1946-2006). The original front man of `Pink Floyd.` Barrett left the band in Spring 1968. This `coincidence` should have alerted the B.B.C. that they were probably dealing with a pseudonym.
"Its value comes from the fact that no one else has it." Still sounds pretty damn selfish to me. I collect coins, and some of the ones I have are rare-ish. But I would be ecstatic if a trove of those previously rare coins were found buried under a tree somewhere. More for all to love and enjoy!
Get 100% well very soon, yes? Please watch yourself. You're so valuable to the Doctor Who Fandom alone, can't imagine how valuable you are for your loved ones. Thank you for your videos.
4:57 Yes, but not to me. Interestingly, in the 90s we used to just call them video-tapes, not VHS. Because other videotape formats were all gone. ... except the newly emergent VHS-C for handycams. I didn't bother with those, we just got a full-size shoulder mounted Panasonic VHS "Movie" cam. Which got stolen as soon as I took it to Bangladesh... But we got another one a few years later. Later I got a mini-DV camcorder, which stopped working when I took it to Thredbo. I've repaired it once and it stopped working again, but I don't know what I've done with my 9 tapes of home videos (some in Bangladesh), which I want to hand to a pro to copy to hard drive ...
Excellent video. This subject always fascinated me. As a kid I always used to record over stuff when I was done, thinking it would be kept in the archives. Shows like No.73 and Motor Mouth only to discover that the master tapes were skipped/dumped by Disney about 15 years ago! I met Philip Morris, Paul Vanezis and Sue Malden in June and they said there are still retrievable eps out there but probably not ALL of them. I feel the same about all missing shows Hancock and Morecambe end Wise etc there's still hope for Web of Fear ep 3
It brings up an interesting question: what 'should' be kept? Every episode of everything on every channel forever? Magazine shows, quiz shows, 24 hour rolling news channels? What about radio - is it all being kept, should it be? Should some stuff be transient and just disappear? What about programmes/episodes that are no longer deemed appropropriate? I would love it if everything was kept, but how feasible is this with so many channels?
@benwillis5840 I think the problem with the TVS archive was that it was ALL being skipped. Those shows were of cultural significance. Sandi Togsvik and Neill Buchannan to name a couple, launched their careers and it was being dumped.
@@JoshSnares Your timing on missing episode related content is just too good though 😂 Underwater Menace announced after this. I'm sure you could keep a secret.
Josh, random question, what would you say is the toughest part of making a RUclips video? And what do you think makes it difficult to keep up with it weekly? (I'm asking as I face the same problem lol.)
I hope you’re feeling better. In terms of film deteriorating, it’s much resilient than tape. Sure, if it’s not stored in good conditions, it can degrade, but film will always outlast tape. FYI - I worked for many years transferring film to tape, so I’m not talking out of my ass.
But film degrades over time so the “rare and priceless” item valued in someone’s collection becomes useless as it’s no longer playable… so really how does it benefit them long term.
No need to apologise for the lack of uploads Josh! Brilliant video. I think you're right that private collectors see their films as an investment and so returning those films to the BBC would impact said investment.
Hope you're feeling much better now! This was another great video - you do a great job of putting all the information in a clear and entertaining video. All hail Milo Clancy!
AFAK it is pronounced 'sh-bah-den' we had one at school and was used to record schools/open university programs. Also at the time, The 10th Planet 'find' was known to be dubious if not complete BS - esp by anybody who was a early Pink Floyd fan.
![How Doctor Who's Missing Episodes Came Back [Part 3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EnpDyHlODmI/mqdefault.jpg)
![How Doctor Who's Missing Episodes Came Back [Part 3]](/img/tr.png)
If I was the BBC I would simply just not fall for hoaxes
SAME
Sometimes, that's unfortunately easier said than done.
Difficult to tell though. If you watch Josh's "history of missing episodes" trilogy some of the means by which films have appeared are fairly implausible :)
Great profile picture.
And you can tell the difference can you?
Regarding film print deterioration: While it is a serious concern, there is plenty of reason to be optimistic. The missing footage from Metropolis (1927) was recovered in watchable (if rough) state in 2008. For something a bit more recent than missing Doctor Who, the theatrical cut of The Big Boss (1971) was rediscovered and released in 2023. And while the missing footage stands out from what was not lost, it still got a well-received 4K release. While the clock is ticking on degradable media, time may yet be on our side.
All comes down to how it’s stored!
@@JoshSnares Of course.
And I'm afraid it also comes down to the kind of material. Metropolis was on film, most of the movies and television worldwide is on film, while British television is almost all on tape. How does this affect the reels' durability?
@@sabrinatirabassi3529 All the tapes were wiped ages ago and reused as cost-cutting measure. All the lost Doctor Who recoveries were film copies, typically meant for foreign broadcast.
The Metropolis case shows that in some cases of Lost Media, the question wether it can be found is just a matter of Luck. You see, until 2008, the owner of the Metropolis Tape had no Idea that the Original Cut was Lost Media at the time.
Not all private collectors keep their copy because it's rare, I think it's more about having trust issues with the BBC.
I recently saw some people arguing about it in some forum years ago and the reason why some of them didn't give their DW episodes are simply because:
- They are afraid of not getting their copy back
- They want to remain anonymous
- Not getting treated kindly by the fans
- They don't get enough or any thanks for bringing the episode back
It's not just about it's rarity, it's more about trust and I had read in the forum that private collectors known each other, so if you attract negative attention from anyone of them, that's basically it for you, because word of it gets around among them.
Also sorry if my grammar is bad, I'm not an english speaker.
I will be honest, none of those points makes me feel warmer towards their plight.
@@genesisknight9948 That's not a private collector, thats just Stef Coburn who threatens to sell the rights to Putin
In my defense, it was pretty early in the morning when I replied.@@mrmister3782
.... and then everyone clapped.
This happens in the video game preservation community too. There's lost prototype arcade games that people refuse to dump and distribute. One infamous one only had 3 copies that existed in the world, and one owner would take theirs to conventions to let people play it, but not distribute it. It eventually leaked online, according to the owner someone who they hired to maintain their machine dumped the board without their permission. Because of this, Atari actually were able to rerelease the game digitally in an official capacity. It may have been a "stolen copy" but that meant that Atari now had access to a game they previously lost and still legally owned. Thankfully it is now available officially and legally to anyone who wants to buy and play it.
@TheYellowShyGuy it's a very interesting story of a publisher needing to use illegal copies of a game to distribute them legally. Atari as a company has changed ownership so many times over the past 50 years that a lot of stuff has been lost, even if they still own the right. This was a great way for them to get access to one of those things that they had lost in the years of transferring ownership.
Yep it's very interesting that when things are recovered some people just hoard it. The NES SimCity prototype took ages to get dumped and released, and even rarerer things definitely exist but people just hold onto them for whatever reason.
There are people out there who have famous stolen paintings worth millions that nobody is ever going to see.
So true
As one who watched "An Unearthly Child" when it first aired (Delayed by the Kennedy Assassination) If I happened to encounter a missing episode of Doctor Who (Or "A for Andromeda," or other important series), I would immediately do everything within my power to get it back to the BBC, just cover the packing and shipping cost. The irony is that, considering these various hoaxes, with my being a Nobody, I'd have great trouble getting anyone to accept that I DO have such! And I know about hoarders -- a fellow stole all the Al Jolson sequences (on 78 and 33 1/3 transcriptions) for the Paul Whiteman Kraft show of 1935, from Williams College. There were desperate attempts to get the material back, the fellow died, and the episodes were trashed by the family, with highly desirable musical history gone for all time.
It is so bizarre to me that only a couple of seconds exist of one of the French Revolution episode. Why would you record 5 seconds and nothing else? And another, where 7 minutes exist of it. So strange.
It is very hopeful that of web of fear 3 is still existing. It went missing from the TV station in Nigeria just before Philip Morris could arrange for the films of the web of fear to be returned to the BBC in 2013
I believe that incident is why future missing episode hunts became more secretive. Soon as word got out that is existed someone jumped on it
@@EngineerLume I think that is what he has said. Basically that he will be completely tight-lipped until something is in the hands of the BBC.
It HAS to still exist somewhere. I can't imagine anyone who bought it would just let it rot away.
4:25 "The true story may have been lost to time" The idea that an attempt to preserve the past, the story of what happened or which version is true potentially being lost is a great statement on how quickly and often we need to be concerned about the preservation of history.
It’s impossible to be objective with the past. First hand accounts are always biased, with two people contradicting each other. It’s about finding the truth in the middle
@@JoshSnares This is true and it's also possible for people to forget certain details with time, as the story they remember slowly becomes more and more of a haze.
It's like how Hbomberguy talks about how people are already rewriting much of the early history of gaming and getting their versions of events (normally self promoting) out there as the true stuff. Also how, for example, audio in early Japanese games was often made by women but was seen as kind of shameful work so they used false names. Which is one of the reasons why people aren't aware of pioneering women in gaming.
About the private collectors part:
There are a few reasons why people don't return the episodes back to the BBC.
The main reason why they hold on to the material is because they do not own them and they could be sued by the BBC. I don't think the BBC would do that and I'm pretty sure they'd be happy just getting it back, but it worries these collectors.
The second reason is that collectors just doesn't trust the BBC.
The last person to have an episode of "Dad's Army" sat on it for decades because the person thought it would just get junked.
And then there are also people who don't even know they have a missing episode or don't know that Doctor Who episodes are missing!
I remember reading that someone had all the episodes of The Celestial Toymaker but threw them away after watching them, because he thought the episodes where terrible and he didn't wanna keep them. He didn't knew the episodes were missing.
It’s always a good days when Josh Snares uploads a video!
When the world needed them most they returned ❤
For now 😂😂
Thanks for these stories. It's shocking what some people will try to get away with!
Insane, isn’t it?
I'm glad you're back and feeling better!
I think we'd have a better shot of developing relationships and maybe, hopefully, convincing collectors to return missing episodes to the BBC if we could just be *normal*. Don't be weird! Don't threaten people by printing magazines that say someone is "hard to track down" or wanting to shake people if they could just get a hold of them, etc. Develop positive relationships with the collecting community and maybe we'll get some stuff ffs
Thanks for the new video, Josh!!
Personally, I hope that the Smugglers is found because pirate stories are always good
I hope so too!
There were lots of pirate episodes doing the rounds in the '80s and '90s 😉
Always a delight to see you Josh. It's 7am here in Brazil and I haven't slept yet, I just had to watch this. Here's hoping that guy that said he has one episode of Marco Polo is telling the truth!
babe wake up, Josh Snares uploaded
😎😎
Imagine sleeping
TRUE
Great video Josh on everyones favourite subject, love anything ME related. This takes me back, I remember reading all these rumours back in the day.
Glad you are feeling better. Take care and "Keep Warm" :-) - Also ALL HAIL MILO CLANCEY
ALL HAIL MILO CLANCY
What's a good strategy for politely asking the owner of a potential missing episode to kindly share it?
(It's so scary how accurate your description is. A coworker of mine let it slip that their father owns something "rare and lost". I only ever enquired once as to what it was but because neither her nor her father were actual fans of Doctor Who, she's not sure. From what I could gather it sounded like a TV reel of an episode of The Mind Robber which, if true, isn't exciting or even missing.
And yet I've never stopped imagining this guy who inherited alot of old broadcasting stuff might be sitting on a gold mine)
I’m not sure what the correct approach is. Watch them like a hawk until they cork it, then swoop in? 😂😂
I've always been curious about that Britbox listing error, having episodes like The Myth Makers 2 and 4 and Celestial Toymaker 2 on there.
A part of me feels like some disgruntled missing episode researcher who knew what some private collectors had just said "We have these!" to Britbox just to get the word out there.
One of my friends has an entire theory about this involving the fact it may be legit and honestly there's some merit to the evidence that was presented but who knows
@@alternatethirteenth5594 If you don't mind, could you post this theory here? I'm interested in their thoughts.
Josh. You are loved. This video is amazing. Keep being you. Thank you! ✨✨✨
5:18 Boy do I feel what Mr. Levine said there.
Ive been craving some Snares content for Ages, it was worth the wait!
😎😎😎
I agree it is great see whotube classic era archivist back I say that cause josh is the only one I have found who does primarily the classic era and I’m grateful cause I love watching the whole series not just the revival and most of the other do the revival
Thank you for providing the Ian Levine content that I live for.
“Wish I could get a hold of him” makes me laugh so much 😂
You're Back!!! Awesome :D
For one video, a moonlight shift, then I shall go into hiding again haha
@@JoshSnares Shame!
@@JoshSnares Although I have a feeling it won't be long before you resurface again in a popular podcast. :D
Very happy to see you upload again, missed the content
I always enjoy your videos Josh. Thank you for carrying on with them! 😊
I love these videos on missing episodes! I've been hoping you'd post something soon!!!
Continuing your addendum to the lost and missing episodes. Great job Josh!
I hope you’re well/will get better.
I’ll send you a beer
You're bang on about the collector hoarders. The exclusivity is the most important thing to them, which is even sadder when you consider that if it was returned to the BBC, they would take a copy for the archive and then return the original to the owner (at least, that's my understanding of how these things go), so they would still possess the original film/video reels.
Great vid, Josh! Interesting and informative
People who collect things, but don't use them... That's genuinely insanity. It's just hoarding for people who think imagined monetary value that will never be cashed in on outweighs the actual value of having something in the first place: putting it to use. I don't think they're malicious, I think they're mental.
😂😂
6:58 true about private collectors although I think you just perfectly described Ian Levine lol
Always look forward to seeing new stuff from you regardless of how often you upload, interesting and informative as always. Hope you're feeling much better than when you were earlier in the year. I look forward to the next video and set of stories and fun facts you have no matter how far off that may be :)
New Josh Snares video babe ❤️
mayhaps 😌
Great Video! Here's to hoping there's still more out there!
Annother super interesting video Josh! You are more than welcome to upload anytime you like, we'll be here 😊
WAAAAAAAAY before you were born.....
Back in the mid 80's, there was a guy from Blackpool who used to put adverts in "Exchange & Mart", offering VHS copies of Tenth Planet pt4 for £200 (which was a LOT of money back then), but he never would send out a clip as proof, nor let anyone visit him to see if it was real or not.
Needless to say it still hasn't been seen by anyone....
That's the infamous Darren Gregory. His hoaxing is well known about.
@@endofthelane1Thank You! I couldn't for the life of me remember his name!
I gotta say, that was a well done video!
Great upload. Always enjoy your stuff. 😁
It really is difficult to explain today how rumour and innuendo could spread unchecked and unchallenged in a world before greater connectivity. Even today it's difficult to control. Which is why fan myths are still repeated today. And the 1980s really were a hotbed for 'characters' who drew their importance from being big fishes in a small pond. This inevitably had an effect on how the BBC - and those involved in the production - viewed the fanbase. One of the most positive outcomes of the post-2005 era is seeing the show open up and being widely appreciated by enthusiasts that don't have an axe to grind - unless your life is spent on Gallifrey Base - for a given definition of life...
Fantastic video!!! Sad but hopeful topic to talk about!!!
A JOSH SNARES VIDEO?! It's not my Birthday.....good to see you. Entertaining and informative as always. Hope you feel better
The sound of the crt in the background is really noticeable around 4:30.
Sorry I forgot to fix that
Good to hear your getting better.
I also feel like maybe some collectors worry about how they'll be viewed by fans if they don't return it or it takes ages for them to do so. they might just get a lot of angry messages from fans
I think that's one of the least likely scenarios, people don't even know or need to know who they are. They're keeping it to themselves, only a small amount of people ever know about these guys
@@matheusflores619 true but I was thinking of a similar scenario, that josh pointed out, where their identity is made public.
Great to see you back, Josh. I implore anyone out there with missing episodes to please return them to the BBC for restoration and preservation, and so they can be enjoyed by a wider audience as first intended. Meanwhile, the good news is that the animated Underwater Menace will be released November 2023!
I agree even if they lend them to the bcc for copying if they don’t want to give up the master tapes cause hoarding them to me isn’t being a fan cause a fan should be willing to share their love for the doctor with other fans
Excellent video - thanks. Regarding the secret hoarding of lost episodes, and the collectors' motives for doing it, I think it's pretty easily explained. Sadly, we've all met fans whose attitude to the material is proprietorial. The attitude is most obvious among fans with a higher profile than the rest but not, I suspect, exclusive to them.
The thing I don't understand is that, if they really do own copies of these lost episodes and they are hoarding them because it gives them an ego trip, why wouldn't they provide some evidence? Even if it's just a few seconds of grainy video on an old CRT that they recorded with a smartphone?
Absent any evidence, my default assumption is that such claims are false and people are just lying to gain attention. So if their motivation is purely ego-driven, shouldn't they want to prove me wrong?
@@GeoffTrowbridge Well, now that some of the more seasoned episode hunters seem to have identified individuals with lost episodes, it might be that those hoarders are happy to be known only among the Higher-Ups, who will have their own (not necessarily dishonourable) reasons for withholding further info from the rest of us. They're up on that rarefied stratum of fandom: the holders of secret knowledge. I've encountered the kind of ego that could get off on that.
I'm speculating wildly of course. Not meaning to sound bitter and twisted either. Those in the know may have good reasons for not forcing the issue. When the latest stories of more episodes being out there began to sound credible, I was just glad at the possibility that a few more had escaped the skip. If I found a lost episode, I'd be happy to tick the box marked Full Publicity but again, that's still an ego-driven thing!
It is bittersweet knowing that some episodes could still be out there in collections but won't be returned. Who knows what could exist out there? The worst is "The Web of Fear" pt 3. where you know the person who took it understood exactly what it was (first appearance of the Brig,) then either hoarded, or more likely sold it.
The sad truth is most there probably aren't many more episodes to recover, it's been 12 years since the last find. But, like the Doctor, we must choose to live in hope.
10*
in 2013 the "Enemy of the World" and most of the "Web of Fear" were found
@@tardis221space Actually, the episodes were found in 2011, but only returned to the BBC in 2013. (Though I suspect they delayed announcing the find to line up with the 50th.)
@@crimsong8068 IIRC the reason for the delay was partially government red tape and partially because WoF 3 went missing and Phil was hoping to be able to somehow secure it.
@@MSDOSProject I've also heard that film is considered flammable material, so certain clearances would have to be granted first. I'm glad the episodes were found.
@@crimsong8068 Nitrate film is certainly flammable and apparently become toxic as it decays. That wouldn't affect Doctor Who though, which has usually been shot on videotape, plus nitrate use ended in the 50s.
7:07 That.. sounds like something a private collector would say! 👀
😂😂😂
@@JoshSnares Can't help but notice the recent news of missing Doctor Who episodes being found in private collections. Coincides with you reappearing and this very specific video. We love you, Josh... Even if you are _enemy to all Doctor Who fans!_
Let's be hopeful. Feel better. Thank you for your content.
I’m a simple man. I see Josh Snares post a video, I click it
"Never say never" - yeah... except for "The feast of Steven". There is no chance this one will ever turn up again. The tape for the episode was wiped September 17th 1967 and was no official film copy made because it was never meant to be broadcast anywhere ever again. 1967 means there is no way for someone to have made a copy directly to any type of consumer video tape or taped it at home. So if there was a copy it would have been a telerecording. Copied to film with one of those special TV to camera devices. This would have been either done officially but not documented, which would be strange. Or someone would have made a copy in secret which means this person had access to the tapes and the recorders and everything without anyone knowing (or caring to report them). The filmstock would have either been taken from and later developed inside the BBC which seems risky as well or the person brought their own material and got it developed provately or did it themselves. They would need to do this twice as the first one would be a negative from which a print needs to be struck to watch it. Something like this is not cheap and never was very cheap. The chance that someone would have done this is so tiny. I would like to be proven wrong but I don't think there is a chance for this one.
Honestly, I'm just happy with what we have these days. We could have had nothing, but instead we're missing less than 100 episodes. (I am still hoping for 5-10 more, but I don't think more than that will ever be found.)
I'm pretty sure there's definitely someone on Earth who's holding onto Web of Fear pt 3, purely because it's the Brig's first appearance.
Wow what a coincidence. Josh releases another video relating to the missing episodes and around the same time, we get an announcement of The Underwater Menace getting animated!
I full agree with what you think, Josh. At the end, anyways.
I do hate people that keep the episodes to themselves, I DO think they do it to get the fans off.
But I at least hope that they're taking care of the prints and that we'll see them someday.
In private hands is better than destroyed.
I just wish we knew which episodes, and had plans for the owner's death.
"had plans for the owners death" sounds like you're planning an assassination! haha
you are good dude Josh Snares! Thank you for your awesomeness!!!!
Great video as always Josh! ALL HAIL MILO CLANCY! 🏴☠️🏴☠️
Omg the official Josh Snares RUclips channel!!
The nicest Australian whotuber commenting on my video 🥰🥰🥰
The saviour has returned!
I also think some private collectors don't even know what they have.
Edit: Also, you should talk about "The Pheonix Rises".
Good time for a missing episodes video, as it turns out
I feel like we only hear these hoaxes about Tenth Planet 4 or Evil of the Daleks. No one pretends to have all the missing episodes of The Space Pirates
Why won’t anyone lie about The Space Pirates? 😭😭😭
@@JoshSnares Here, I'll start! "The Space Pirates is good"
Sorry you've been sick. Post when you feel like it. You will find an audience.
I keep hope that some more missing episodes will turn up, but it's unlikely that all the missing episodes will ever be found. Some are likely just lost to space and time. But just one more episode of Galaxy 4, or the Space Pirates, or The Underwater Menace, or Marco Polo, etc. might change they way we view those stories. Hope burns bright - but light and heat deteriorate film. Here's hoping!
In the case of some private collectors, some might not even know that the tape is highly sought after, like in the case of the owner of Galaxy 4 episode 3 and Underwater Menace episode 2.
I really hate those who know the tape is valuable, and keep it for themselves. It’s so greedy and selfish.
So happy that Underwater Menace ep. 2 exists. It's got the most unhinged and disturbed villain cliffhanger in the Classic Doctor Who, in my opinion: "Shoot those men! *BLAM BLAM* NOTHING IN THE WORLD CAN STOP ME NOW!!" *credits*
5:18 LOL Ian!! 😂😂
Let's hope one day they will come back yes one day.
Excellent video Josh! It's so frustrating that hoaxes pop up and get fans' hopes up. The same frustration in knowing that there are missing episodes of Doctor Who out there that may never be returned, but I try not to worry too much about that and be grateful for what does exist because it could have been so much worse!
Roger K. Barrett was the legal name of `Syd` Barrett (1946-2006). The original front man of `Pink Floyd.` Barrett left the band in Spring 1968. This `coincidence` should have alerted the B.B.C. that they were probably dealing with a pseudonym.
The genuine Roger Barrett, irl, was better known as Syd Barrett from Pink Floyd.
And all hail Milo Clancy!
I have the same Dr Who Police Box that you have on the top of your TV.
"Its value comes from the fact that no one else has it." Still sounds pretty damn selfish to me. I collect coins, and some of the ones I have are rare-ish. But I would be ecstatic if a trove of those previously rare coins were found buried under a tree somewhere. More for all to love and enjoy!
Get 100% well very soon, yes? Please watch yourself. You're so valuable to the Doctor Who Fandom alone, can't imagine how valuable you are for your loved ones. Thank you for your videos.
i wish that collector's would at LEAST find value in being the one to make it public
WELCOME BACK
Thanks for this Josh! Always a pleasure to watch your videos as/when you upload 😊
How did you know we all chant *"Hail Milo Clancy"* ?
3:02
Your missing episode videos are fascinating, thanks for posting.
4:57 Yes, but not to me.
Interestingly, in the 90s we used to just call them video-tapes, not VHS. Because other videotape formats were all gone.
... except the newly emergent VHS-C for handycams.
I didn't bother with those, we just got a full-size shoulder mounted Panasonic VHS "Movie" cam. Which got stolen as soon as I took it to Bangladesh...
But we got another one a few years later. Later I got a mini-DV camcorder, which stopped working when I took it to Thredbo. I've repaired it once and it stopped working again, but I don't know what I've done with my 9 tapes of home videos (some in Bangladesh), which I want to hand to a pro to copy to hard drive ...
I think just knowing they are out there is a start shame that people are like this even more so since everyday the film will be slowly rotting 😢
I have Dragons in my family. Dragons do not give up even the smallest piece of their treasure. The same applies here.
This is such a great thing to wake up to, i cant even tell you
Excellent video. This subject always fascinated me. As a kid I always used to record over stuff when I was done, thinking it would be kept in the archives. Shows like No.73 and Motor Mouth only to discover that the master tapes were skipped/dumped by Disney about 15 years ago! I met Philip Morris, Paul Vanezis and Sue Malden in June and they said there are still retrievable eps out there but probably not ALL of them. I feel the same about all missing shows Hancock and Morecambe end Wise etc there's still hope for Web of Fear ep 3
It brings up an interesting question: what 'should' be kept? Every episode of everything on every channel forever? Magazine shows, quiz shows, 24 hour rolling news channels? What about radio - is it all being kept, should it be? Should some stuff be transient and just disappear? What about programmes/episodes that are no longer deemed appropropriate?
I would love it if everything was kept, but how feasible is this with so many channels?
@benwillis5840 I think the problem with the TVS archive was that it was ALL being skipped. Those shows were of cultural significance. Sandi Togsvik and Neill Buchannan to name a couple, launched their careers and it was being dumped.
3:15 I mean in modern day they’d likely convert it to USB for ease of use.
I'm convinced Josh Snares has a contact at the BBC about missing episodes.
They don’t tell me nothing - because they know I’ll tell everyone on this channel 😂
@@JoshSnares Your timing on missing episode related content is just too good though 😂 Underwater Menace announced after this. I'm sure you could keep a secret.
That's more or less why I thought collectors hold onto eps but....man I think its scummy.
They r doing the underwater menace!!!!! Animations r back! 😎
Josh, random question, what would you say is the toughest part of making a RUclips video? And what do you think makes it difficult to keep up with it weekly? (I'm asking as I face the same problem lol.)
It’s the writing, the motivation to set up all my camera gear, finding time between working full time. Trying to perform! The list goes on haha
Relatable! xD Thank you! @@JoshSnares
The Returnnnnnnn
This is the earliest hoax that I remember from the 1991 time.
I would love it if they did find Marco Polo…but I’m not holding out much hope that they will find any more now.
We can dream 😌
I hope you’re feeling better. In terms of film deteriorating, it’s much resilient than tape. Sure, if it’s not stored in good conditions, it can degrade, but film will always outlast tape. FYI - I worked for many years transferring film to tape, so I’m not talking out of my ass.
Great video! Thank tou very much.
Thanks for watching :)
Come back again soon, Josh - always enjoy your videos....quality over quantity...
But film degrades over time so the “rare and priceless” item valued in someone’s collection becomes useless as it’s no longer playable… so really how does it benefit them long term.
If they store it correctly (which collectors do), they should outlive the owner!
No need to apologise for the lack of uploads Josh! Brilliant video. I think you're right that private collectors see their films as an investment and so returning those films to the BBC would impact said investment.
Hope you're feeling much better now! This was another great video - you do a great job of putting all the information in a clear and entertaining video. All hail Milo Clancy!
8:32 *MATHS!* 🤬👿👹
guys I think it was Syd Barrett's Schizophrenia kicking in (Pink Floyd joke (he was also Roger K Barrett))
AFAK it is pronounced 'sh-bah-den' we had one at school and was used to record schools/open university programs.
Also at the time, The 10th Planet 'find' was known to be dubious if not complete BS - esp by anybody who was a early Pink Floyd fan.
Ah! Thank you :)
Nicely done, Josh!