This NeverMo continues to be blown away by your content! It's breathtaking to realize the sheer extent of the colonization of thought and culture necessary to uphold the BoM as historically true.
1:09:00 "World to world translation" in fact means replacing a text with a completely different text. They are not related. There is a joke: "The taste of Tofu can be further improved by replacing it with a steak before serving". This is what the above translation paradigm actually means.
“If you tell the truth you do not need a good memory!” ~ Huckleberry Finn “Right is right, and wrong is wrong, and a body ain’t got no business doing wrong when he ain’t ignorant and knows better.” ~ Huckleberry Finn According to the reasoning adopted by Elder Oaks, if we find any value in these words of Huckleberry Finn we cannot deny that Huckleberry Finn was a real person who lived in Missouri and floated around on the Mississippi River some time in the 1830s or thereabout. In fact, it's almost surprising that he and Joseph Smith, Jr. never met in Kirtland or Nauvoo, since Huckleberry and his friend Tom would certainly have wanted to see the mummies and have an adventure meeting the famous "Peepstone Prophet of Palmyra". Tom Sawyer would have been especially attracted to the Peepstone Prophet's teachings about plural marriage, which would have made it possible for Tom to have both Becky Thatcher and Amy Lawrence. He really was infatuated with both of them, but Becky didn't know that polygamy was good.
"Peepstone Prophet of Palmyra" - Love it! Keep it up, Team Poseidon, I love your stuff! The entire point of that Hoax talk is absurd and all it really serves to do is illustrate how brainwashed the faithful truly are. Those same people are undoubtedly reasonable in every other aspect of life and would easily recognize the absurdity of saying, "well, if you agree that it has good content then you must agree that it's literally true". Yet the faithful accept such blatant hogwash because to apply critical thinking to anything Mormon would be to open the Pandora's box of other issues and they don't want to have to deal with any of them.
Not only would a fully literate society, that could field hundreds of thousands of soldiers, produce a huge volume of remnants, but that fully literate society would have wiped out the oral societies (like Europeans put indigenous peoples on reservations or married the indigenous women and dissipated those cultures).
About the claim that only a small number of elite were literate, I wonder what proponents of that kind of ad hoc claim of convenience do with the story of Captain Moroni, who wrote a message about "liberty" on his coat and raised it up in order to rally the masses to the cause. "And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it-In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children-and he fastened it upon the end of a pole." (Alma 46:12) "And when Moroni had said these words, he went forth AMONG THE PEOPLE, waving the rent part of his garment in the air, that ALL might see the writing which he had written upon the rent part...." (Alma 46:19) Well we can be sure that the rental company that provided the rented garment would not be happy about Moroni writing on it. ;o) But more importantly, what would be the point of writing that message on his coat and going all over the place waving it in the faces of the PEOPLE...if they couldn't read? Hey, Teanki-hookihah, why is Moroni waving that coat around with funny squiggles on it? I don't know, Morcancumer-leha-anti-phinehah-lemulamansman, but it looks like it's a rented coat that he ripped and he's showing off or something. And he seems to be yelling something about puberty or luberty....I can't really make it out from this distance.
Agreed 100%. We brought that up with some apologists and they claim the priests read to the people what was written on the title of liberty and they sent scribes out to the masses to share what was written. But we agree if they couldn’t read why not produce a symbol that means something to the people rather than writing that would just be gibberish to his people.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 So, basically, the apologists have to (yet again) try to make sense of what is actually stated in the text of the Book of Mormon...by making up things that are not mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon...and then pretend that what they made up now has to be deemed to be part of the Book of Mormon narrative because, otherwise, the Book of Mormon wouldn't make sense...and they know that it has to make sense because it's true, so whatever story they have to make up in order to make it make sense must also be true because their made-up narrative is what is needed to help ensure that the Book of Mormon can appear to be true as it should instead of being true but looking like it's not true. I almost forgot how quickly apologists' arguments can give me migraines. ;o)
Excellent podcast! What people don't understand is that neither John the Baptist nor PJ&J held a priesthood. JtheB was a Levite prophet (Luke 16:16) but not a priest. No where in NT does it say Jesus gave His apostles priesthood. He ordained them which in the Greek means He authorized them to preach and baptise in His name. But He never laid hands on them to confer a priesthood. So, those men could not confer a priesthood on JS and OC they themselves never had.
The Melchizedek priesthood of Jesus Christ as described in Hebrews is a pure metaphor, based on the concept of "types/shadows", a Platonic or Aristotelian idea. The old testament priesthood of men burning animals is replaced by the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This event figuratively rips apart the veil at the temple, and thus Christians can directly enter in front of god. In this metaphor, they become priests, as in the old system only priests could enter into the presence of God. When Catholicism reintroduced priests as intermediaries between God and lay men, this was argued against by Martin Luther, who introduced the priesthood of all believers. None of this expresses any keys or authority, it simply describes that the at-one-ment of Jesus Christ has broken down all barriers between God and man. No temple recommend needed!
I was a member for 60 years. 30 years as a high priest before realizing the Biblical teaching of priesthood. I have since repented of calling myself a high priest. Mormonism has its own system of priesthood which is fine I guess. But they cannot claim that it's a restored priesthood and be correct.
Since the BoM teaches that three of the Nephite disciples were to tarry on earth without dying till Christ's second coming, it would have made more sense for them to confer priesthood power on JS and OC. But by the time Smith backdated and inserted the account of the priesthood restoration, he had moved on from teaching anything in the BoM. His focus was on restoring pure masonry.
I love this series. The only problem with it being live is that people don't post their comments here, so it isn't getting pushed out to more people. It seems that everyone who is introduced to the study of the history of history is thrilled to learn about it. Wouldn't some of the rock art actually be doodles? I should think kids have been attempting to draw things since we became human. I think the desire to play and to create art would have coexisted with the need to transmit knowledge. I don't see how scholars can tease that apart, given our post-literate view.
One small correction that John Lundwall got wrong. The Zapruder Film is the famous film of JFK being shot in Dealey Plaza. The Patterson / Gimlin film is the famous one of bigfoot walking.
The issue I cannot reconcile is the specific, concrete and consistent testimony of the 3 witnesses, especially David Whitmer, who gave scores of interviews over 50 years or so. To him he saw the angel, saw the plates & other implements, and heard the voice of God testify that they were true and translated correctly. Whitmer never refers to an "eye of faith", rather he emphasizes the reality and corporeality of his experience: in one interview he asked the interviewer: "do you see that table in the room" and then pounded on it, and said "so I saw the plates and saw the angel." I agree with Lundwall hear that there is very little chance the BOM is coming out of historical reality, based on any appeal to the natural world. I've tried to reconcile these issues, but so far am unable.
Many people claim to have seen a bigfoot, and will pound on tables and not back down. The brain can create all kinds of experiences that seem very real, but are actually hallucinations or dreams. Another explanation is that Whitmer was fabricating and didn't want to ever admit it or contradict himself. And then there are false memories. Any one of these explanations are more believable than a supernatural angel and gold plates that conveniently disappeared.
Like many Hollywood movies, the Book of Mormon is based on a true story. The true story that it is based on is that there were people living in the Americas during the period between 600 BCE and 400 CE. It's also true that in the Americas, there was dirt. Any honest archaeologist will confirm that there was dirt in the Americas during the relevant time periods...and the Book of Mormon refers to dirt. The Book of Mormon mentions wood several times...and archaeologists have confirmed that there was wood during the relevant time periods. So far, so true. Just as there are fictional elements in any dramatized movie or story that is based on a true story, there are also fictional elements in the Book of Mormon. For example, Lehi, Nephi, the building of transoceanic vessels, a magic 8-ball called Liahona, steel swords, Lamanites, Nephites, Jaredites, skin curses, Jesus appearing in Zarahemla, gold plates, Moroni, God touching rocks with his finger to turn them into glow stones, etc. appear to be entirely fictitious embellishments. Paul H. Dunn's faith-promoting stories were based on true stories too. So we do find consistency in the Church. Paul H. Dunn was in the military. Paul H. Dunn played baseball. In that sense, Paul H. Dunn's far-fetched fanciful tales...as embellished, exaggerated and full of fantasy as they were...were nonetheless closer to a true underlying reality than the Book of Mormon is. But both the Book of Mormon and tales of Dunn are based on true stories to some limited extent. Russell M. Nelson's story about his stoic and heroic demeanor and calmness as a passenger in the face of a dramatic and catastrophic engine failure in an airplane and the resultant terrifying death spiral from which the plane recovered only at the last minute due to divine providence...was based on a true story. The true story was that Nelson was a passenger on a plane that landed without incident at a nearby airport, prior to reaching the final destination, in order to check on one of it's engines. I guess as long as things are based on true stories, Mormons can still obtain detectable trace elements of truths in their faith diet that will be worth their weight in tithing payments paid with Monopoly board-game money.
I just noticed the Pharaoh Unis reigned (2375-2345 BC) during Noah's flood (2348 BC) , according to Bishop Ussher's (1581-1656 AD) Bible literalist chronology.
Maybe the Church is starting to distance itself from the BOM. They've wiped it from their Name now. Who knows... maybe in 50 years the members will be studying from a Book Titled "Do As We Say". I've really enjoyed this Series and will be reviewing it in days to come. Thank You for providing this Expert Analysis and explaining it in terms that are so Understandable.
Would Dallin H Oaks apply his quote to the scriptures of other religions? Has he evaluated their truth claims through the lens of revelation, faith and scholarship or can he reject the idea that we originated on an alien planet and traveled here in airplanes?
To go along with the section on what the Apostles have said, I've come to ask people to think if leaders of other organizations were saying the same thing. What if the Pope were saying such things to Catholics? What if the Dalai Lama were saying such things to Buddhists? What if it came from Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, or Scientology? Whether you agree or not, why? This is the kind of thinking people need to do far more.
It is imperative for faith to blind completely, that there is no evidence whatsoever. The less the evidence the more obedience can be extracted. Evidence would kill faith. It is important for the charade to be optimal that there is no evidence.
As a former MexiMormon ,THANK YOU! I too have been sounding the alarm of the Church appropriating anything indigenous to fit the fiction of the Book of Mormon. Truly the greatest work of subtle racism is at play!
This is very interesting -- I hope to hear more! However, the Book of Mormon t was passed down through a succession of Chief Priests, offering a legendary account of a tribe that called themselves "Nephites". Only a small group of "Nephite" aristocrats / priests knew the language or could read and write it. As Hugh Nibley pointed out, all those "And it came to pass'" are a poor translation (vis the U&T or the Stone) of a single Hebrew word. Bad translation may also explain the anachronisms. On the other hand, the pearl of Great Price IS a "translation" of parts of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. As you point out, literalist Egyptian experts would (and do) reject Joseph Smith's more literary "translation" -- using KJV language that he knows so well. Everyone agrees that the Book of the Dead tells a story very similar to the endowment ceremony -- a ritual with vast and complex meaning. Criticism of the Joseph Smith Papyri. would've been more convincing if the actual text had been a love letter from King Tut tp Nephertiti.
First I have to agree that the Book of Mormon needs to be 100% historical or it and the church are a fraud, you made a statement if I understood correctly that church authorities/ priesthood get their authority from the Book of Mormon. As a missionary we would teach people that all authority comes from John the Baptist and Peter, James and John. Which would put authority as coming from Joesph Smith having a historical visitation from John the Baptist and the original Peter, James and John from the Bible.
I don't see that the priesthood came from BOM. The book has nothing about priesthood. That was restored when "Peter, James and John appeared to Joseph and Oliver Coudry".
In this context, I don't think we're referring to formal priesthood authority that is conferred from one holder to another. It's "authority" that answers the question "why should anyone pay any attention to what these guys say?" If Joseph Smith was just a random guy who wrote down his opinions of how Christian beliefs should be interpreted and practiced, then nothing makes him stand out as someone deserving attention anymore than the thousands of other ordinary people spouting their personal opinions. Joseph Smith and the Church use the Book of Mormon as evidence of a miracle...a divine act of intervention and delivery of instructions. According to them, only the "power of God" can explain the existence of the Book of Mormon and no ordinary person, especially as uneducated and ignorant as Joseph Smith could have produced such a miraculous work (a "marvelous work and a wonder" in Mormon parlance). That's the authority used to support all of Joseph Smith's other claims, including his claims of revelation and receiving of the formal priesthood and so on. If he lied or was "mistaken" in his perceptions about the Book of Mormon, then everything else he claimed is easily just as dubious and suspect.
Just finished watching this podcast at 12:52 am somewhere in northern Louisiana. I could not stop and continue later, could not pause or tune off. Wow!!! Just wow!!! Don’t have much to add. I believe our very own Indiana Jones has spoken AND HAS SHOWN WITH FACTS, as in actual historical facts, what we need to know in order to arrive to a logical conclusion. The only thing I have left to say is how I am feeling after watching this. My angry period happened a long time ago. I no longer scream as loud as I used to about how much falsehood there is in all of this. I no longer go to Mormon forums (late 90’s early 2000’s) to discus and show these Mormons the truth. I no longer cry of frustration and anger trying to tell my then Mormon husband (now Mormon only by name ex husband) what ridiculous things about Mormonism I was learning from Sandra and Jerald. I no longer feel the need to prove myself. What I feel right now is a huge sadness for so many people who are being lied to straight faced. Good and trusting people who love these Sasquatches from hell!!! So many broken people because of these men on the top who just manipulate, lie, and use everyone in the bottom to fulfill their own personal agenda. So so sad….
New to the channel but absolutely love the content. LOVE JOHN!! Holy smokes!! Great series. I hope Mormon truth seekers stumble across this series early in their search. It’s simply undeniable!! 🙏🏻😮💨🔥🤌🏼💪🏼
I understand Dr. Lundwall's passion concerning the grift perpetrated by the church. They use their power to threaten members into obedience, threatening their spirituality, their eternity, their families. It really may be just evil.
I prayed and received an undeniable belief in sasquatch.. In reality, I'm not convinced by your contention that Moroni definitely wasn't an Aztec (or Mayan or whatever.) If they existed, it's obvious that the Nephites & Lamanites were small tribes -- since the BoM doesn't mention contact with other peoples. There's ample evidence that, if King Nephi existed, he could read & write (on gold, tin, tapir skin, or whatever) but the general population couldn't. Also remember that the BoM was written by Nephi for his grandchildren, from his rather arrogant perspective. Ie, much of the text is deceptive -- he wants to show his grandchildren how glorious he was. In other words, the Laminates might have been the good guys. The Mayans had a vast trading empire. Surely merchants had some method of tallying sales. Perhaps the BoM was written by an arrogant cad on fool's gold, translated by another arrogant but ignorant cad sold to gullible farmers.
When you compare the King Follett discourse, where God once was a human on another planet, then it's actually like scientology, which in OT3 (a level you reach on their ladder of salvation )0turns into a space religion where alien souls get latched onto your body.
Bumpin' off the BoM is getting old. This particular spin was good. But it's something for old folks. I'd say that a good theme should be ......What kinda revelatory novelty this spin to Jesus the Christ in Mormon theology brings to the Evangelical Community, so devoid of any canon.
@@kurtgoodman6664 It's hard to decipher, but it appears to be some kind of message that was originally written in Reformed Egyptian and then translated into a Reformed Beatnik-Hipster dialect. Probably need a seer stone to get it into standard English. I tried a run at it with my seer stone, but all I got was some kind of Beatnik-Hipster rewording: "The BoM groove be skippin' hard, but don't be no blast for any daddy-o who got places to be. Them squares and cubes be hip to it like old school. But the cool cats be wigged out on it cuz they can't dig feelin the ride on the slide past this station til they noodle out some new-fashioned kicks to lay down on the church of the lost cause."
@@kurtgoodman6664 Simple. Whatever my generation experienced as " Mormon belief" and culture, will be gone in a generation. All this repetitive pounding over BofM historicity should be over by now. The question should be, ahead of the mark, what kind of improvement the LDS brings to notoriously canon-less Pentecostal and Evangelical sectors of American Christendom? Political Savvy? Organization? More Canon rigor? Or more of the same?
@@Coriantumr1 Interesting questions, if I understand them correctly. But once "Mormon belief" is gone (and the Book of Mormon being what it was originally claimed to be...is the so-called "keystone" to that), there's nothing left to distinguish the LDS church from the "canon-less" modern mush of American Christianity. As it is, the Book of Mormon provides no rudder or canonical rigor for anything and hasn't done so for many decades. But it is the origin story on which all of the other claims are based, including the leaders' claims that they've been especially appointed and anointed by Jesus to tell everyone else what to do (whatever they decide that may be from month to month and year to year) and collect and manage money for Jesus. Analyzing the non-historicity of the BoM is an act of opening prison doors for those among the imprisoned who have eyes to see, so to speak. With each passing year, there are different people who have begun to take off their faith blinders. It's an interesting discussion for those who are interested. If you feel that it's no longer relevant to anything that you're interested in, that's all about you. One size does not fit all. One topic is not the primary topic of interest for everyone universally. They're kind of trying to replace the Book of Mormon's centrality in the faith with temples, which they are slapping up at an accelerated pace. The problem is that the temples are just The Emperor's New Clothes redux, redux (and the BoM was The Emperor's New Clothes redux). The temples are whited sepulchres marketed to the flock as the pinnacle of Mormon spiritual experience. Inside, it's just mumbo-jumbo and a sales pitch for Mormon underwear, taking place in a somewhat gaudy version of a 1950s upscale hotel lobby...all available to any member who can prove that they are worthy of such a spiritual treat by (a) routinely telling/confessing their deepest secrets to an unpaid local Mormon leader whose day job may be insurance sales, plumbing, retail management or accounting; and (b) confirming to such local leaders, with receipts and paperwork, on annual basis that they've forked over 10% of all of their wages, tips, capital gains and interest income to the LDS Church. What kind of improvement can the LDS Church bring to other sects? None at all...unless the tight-fisted LDS leaders decide to give their hoard of money and assets away to other sects...or depending on how you define "improvement". If anything, the current and future leaders have been moving in the direction of simply blending in with the canon-less modern "sectors of American Christendom"...incrementally...so as to not shock the main body of current tithepayers into waking up to the reality of the big wealth extraction business that they've mistaken for a religion all their lives. For more than a century, the LDS Church has simply brought up the rear with regard to prevailing political and religious sensibilities, usually lagging about 20 years behind the mainstream of society.
hahaha this is bogus, if you need proof that the Book of Mormon is true.....Read it in Hebrew. In Hebrew the Book of Mormon is clearer, has better syntax, and the numerous names such as Mosiah are Hebrew and have texual significance. No one but No one could have achieved that unless they were fluent in Hebrew and knew ancient Hebrew motiffs. Shalom.
This argument makes no sense since the book was never written in Hebrew and there is no original Hebrew to read. Any Hebrew Book of Mormon would be a translation from the English. My guess is you can’t even read Hebrew and you are taking the word of some LDS scholar on this. Fiddler On the Roof is probably better in Hebrew too but that doesn’t make it true. Shalom.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 Haha there have been Hebrew translations of the Book of Mormon since the 1920s. One of my friends is an Israeli soft ware designer . One of the best in the world. He read the Book of Mormon in Hebrew. He and many others say the text is easier to read in Hebrew. His first language. There are numerous words in Hebrew in the Book of Mormon not found in the Bible. In the 1960s Yigael Yadin the head of the Israeli Archelogical department found the Hebrew name " Alma" in a contract in a purse near the Dead Sea written thousands of years ago. He said it matched the name "Alma" in the Book of Mormon. I guess you are guessing because you are ignorant.
Kind of interesting on the plate thickness, thin sheets of tempered copper covered with a soft layer of thin gold definitely seem possible. Here is a video of a bit softer copper than the high temper of approximately .01 inches, and they also demonstrate a .007 inch sheet. ruclips.net/video/63dSu3ZGYwk/видео.htmlsi=Vij6GsEYMUMKhHck I get Lundwall is not a metallurgist so probably venturing into area that he doesn't have any experience in, so probably best to stick to the topics in which he is trained. Anyway, found the podcast to be interesting.
Because ancient culture depended on nature's fertility, thus ancient religion was full of fertility and sexuality symbols. Wake up from your Victorian world.
Lundwall is an archaeologist, right? No. Anthropologist? No. Historian? No. He's not even a linguist. If he were, he'd know that several English words and even phrases can be represented by a simple symbol. Lucy Mack Smith is reported to have said her son had such detail about the ancient people that it was as if he had lived there himself. I just think this much ado about nothing. Wanna leave the church, fine. Just accept it as your decision without trying to rationalize or encourage others to leave as well. I can't think of a greater waste of energy.
Dr. Lundwall works in the field of archeology and has his Bachelor’s in English so yes he does know that English phrases cannot be represented by one symbol as he explains in the episode but you are probably right knowing the truth about Book of Mormon historicity is probably no big deal!
@@mormonishpodcast1036 Anyone can "work" in the field of Archaeology. A bachelors in English means he has read Shakespeare or Chaucer. It does not make one a linguist familiar with other languages. Sorry to disappoint.
Dr Lundwall is the best --- still can't believe that it took 'til the year 2023 for a historical analysis like this to be revealed.
Dr John: "The Brethren do not seek Truth, they seek Obedience." THIS.
"They will put the burden on proof on you, not them to prove what they teach."
Great lesson on history, linguistics, anthropology, human behavior, rituals, religion and psychology within Mormonism.
This NeverMo continues to be blown away by your content! It's breathtaking to realize the sheer extent of the colonization of thought and culture necessary to uphold the BoM as historically true.
I'm disgusted by the church's behavior. I'm so glad I left.
Every episode with Dr. Lundwall has been fantastic! Looking forward what he has to share in the future!
He actually has laid out another 3 part series he wants to do so watch for that in the future.
@@mormonishpodcast1036
YAY! Thank you! Can’t wait!
Fantastic episode.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE Dr Lundwall and this 5 part series!!!!!
So do we! He has some ideas for more episodes soon so keep watching!
The discussion of ancient cultures and their world view was simply fascinating. Thanks for the history lesson Dr John.
These arguments are so compelling that I guess I gotta believe in Sasquachistan now. Thanks a lot, Lundwall.
I vote John for President of Sasquachistan!
I live there, it's located just south of Saskatchewan.
Rebecca and Landon: you guys are awsome!!!!!! The level of high quality of your podcast is something!!!!!!! Thank you!!!!!!
Well done thou good and faithful servants Rebecca, Landon & John!! Thy faith hath made thee whole 🙏🏻✨🧖🏼♂️🤌🏼✨😮💨🎊🙏🏻 Thank you!!
1:09:00 "World to world translation" in fact means replacing a text with a completely different text. They are not related. There is a joke: "The taste of Tofu can be further improved by replacing it with a steak before serving". This is what the above translation paradigm actually means.
“If you tell the truth you do not need a good memory!” ~ Huckleberry Finn
“Right is right, and wrong is wrong, and a body ain’t got no business doing wrong when he ain’t ignorant and knows better.” ~ Huckleberry Finn
According to the reasoning adopted by Elder Oaks, if we find any value in these words of Huckleberry Finn we cannot deny that Huckleberry Finn was a real person who lived in Missouri and floated around on the Mississippi River some time in the 1830s or thereabout.
In fact, it's almost surprising that he and Joseph Smith, Jr. never met in Kirtland or Nauvoo, since Huckleberry and his friend Tom would certainly have wanted to see the mummies and have an adventure meeting the famous "Peepstone Prophet of Palmyra". Tom Sawyer would have been especially attracted to the Peepstone Prophet's teachings about plural marriage, which would have made it possible for Tom to have both Becky Thatcher and Amy Lawrence. He really was infatuated with both of them, but Becky didn't know that polygamy was good.
"Peepstone Prophet of Palmyra" - Love it! Keep it up, Team Poseidon, I love your stuff!
The entire point of that Hoax talk is absurd and all it really serves to do is illustrate how brainwashed the faithful truly are. Those same people are undoubtedly reasonable in every other aspect of life and would easily recognize the absurdity of saying, "well, if you agree that it has good content then you must agree that it's literally true". Yet the faithful accept such blatant hogwash because to apply critical thinking to anything Mormon would be to open the Pandora's box of other issues and they don't want to have to deal with any of them.
The episode I’ve been waiting for!
Great episode! Really love what you guys are doing with this podcast.
Wow so much to absorb, excellent info!! Keep doing excellence Rebecca and Landon!
Not only would a fully literate society, that could field hundreds of thousands of soldiers, produce a huge volume of remnants, but that fully literate society would have wiped out the oral societies (like Europeans put indigenous peoples on reservations or married the indigenous women and dissipated those cultures).
About the claim that only a small number of elite were literate, I wonder what proponents of that kind of ad hoc claim of convenience do with the story of Captain Moroni, who wrote a message about "liberty" on his coat and raised it up in order to rally the masses to the cause.
"And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it-In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children-and he fastened it upon the end of a pole." (Alma 46:12)
"And when Moroni had said these words, he went forth AMONG THE PEOPLE, waving the rent part of his garment in the air, that ALL might see the writing which he had written upon the rent part...." (Alma 46:19)
Well we can be sure that the rental company that provided the rented garment would not be happy about Moroni writing on it. ;o) But more importantly, what would be the point of writing that message on his coat and going all over the place waving it in the faces of the PEOPLE...if they couldn't read?
Hey, Teanki-hookihah, why is Moroni waving that coat around with funny squiggles on it?
I don't know, Morcancumer-leha-anti-phinehah-lemulamansman, but it looks like it's a rented coat that he ripped and he's showing off or something. And he seems to be yelling something about puberty or luberty....I can't really make it out from this distance.
Agreed 100%. We brought that up with some apologists and they claim the priests read to the people what was written on the title of liberty and they sent scribes out to the masses to share what was written. But we agree if they couldn’t read why not produce a symbol that means something to the people rather than writing that would just be gibberish to his people.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 So, basically, the apologists have to (yet again) try to make sense of what is actually stated in the text of the Book of Mormon...by making up things that are not mentioned at all in the Book of Mormon...and then pretend that what they made up now has to be deemed to be part of the Book of Mormon narrative because, otherwise, the Book of Mormon wouldn't make sense...and they know that it has to make sense because it's true, so whatever story they have to make up in order to make it make sense must also be true because their made-up narrative is what is needed to help ensure that the Book of Mormon can appear to be true as it should instead of being true but looking like it's not true. I almost forgot how quickly apologists' arguments can give me migraines. ;o)
Excellent podcast! What people don't understand is that neither John the Baptist nor PJ&J held a priesthood. JtheB was a Levite prophet (Luke 16:16) but not a priest. No where in NT does it say Jesus gave His apostles priesthood. He ordained them which in the Greek means He authorized them to preach and baptise in His name. But He never laid hands on them to confer a priesthood. So, those men could not confer a priesthood on JS and OC they themselves never had.
The Melchizedek priesthood of Jesus Christ as described in Hebrews is a pure metaphor, based on the concept of "types/shadows", a Platonic or Aristotelian idea. The old testament priesthood of men burning animals is replaced by the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This event figuratively rips apart the veil at the temple, and thus Christians can directly enter in front of god. In this metaphor, they become priests, as in the old system only priests could enter into the presence of God. When Catholicism reintroduced priests as intermediaries between God and lay men, this was argued against by Martin Luther, who introduced the priesthood of all believers. None of this expresses any keys or authority, it simply describes that the at-one-ment of Jesus Christ has broken down all barriers between God and man. No temple recommend needed!
That is a great point! Where did their “Priesthood” come from? Maybe a future episode.
I was a member for 60 years. 30 years as a high priest before realizing the Biblical teaching of priesthood. I have since repented of calling myself a high priest. Mormonism has its own system of priesthood which is fine I guess. But they cannot claim that it's a restored priesthood and be correct.
Yes. Thank you for saying.
Since the BoM teaches that three of the Nephite disciples were to tarry on earth without dying till Christ's second coming, it would have made more sense for them to confer priesthood power on JS and OC. But by the time Smith backdated and inserted the account of the priesthood restoration, he had moved on from teaching anything in the BoM. His focus was on restoring pure masonry.
Excellent! Thank you!
I love this series. The only problem with it being live is that people don't post their comments here, so it isn't getting pushed out to more people. It seems that everyone who is introduced to the study of the history of history is thrilled to learn about it.
Wouldn't some of the rock art actually be doodles? I should think kids have been attempting to draw things since we became human. I think the desire to play and to create art would have coexisted with the need to transmit knowledge. I don't see how scholars can tease that apart, given our post-literate view.
One small correction that John Lundwall got wrong. The Zapruder Film is the famous film of JFK being shot in Dealey Plaza. The Patterson / Gimlin film is the famous one of bigfoot walking.
Best episode of this topic in Mormon themed podcast realm. Well done ❤
The issue I cannot reconcile is the specific, concrete and consistent testimony of the 3 witnesses, especially David Whitmer, who gave scores of interviews over 50 years or so. To him he saw the angel, saw the plates & other implements, and heard the voice of God testify that they were true and translated correctly. Whitmer never refers to an "eye of faith", rather he emphasizes the reality and corporeality of his experience: in one interview he asked the interviewer: "do you see that table in the room" and then pounded on it, and said "so I saw the plates and saw the angel." I agree with Lundwall hear that there is very little chance the BOM is coming out of historical reality, based on any appeal to the natural world. I've tried to reconcile these issues, but so far am unable.
Many people claim to have seen a bigfoot, and will pound on tables and not back down. The brain can create all kinds of experiences that seem very real, but are actually hallucinations or dreams. Another explanation is that Whitmer was fabricating and didn't want to ever admit it or contradict himself. And then there are false memories. Any one of these explanations are more believable than a supernatural angel and gold plates that conveniently disappeared.
Awesome episode. One correction: the Zapruder film was the JFK assassin. The Bigfoot film is the Patterson-Gimlin film.
Like many Hollywood movies, the Book of Mormon is based on a true story.
The true story that it is based on is that there were people living in the Americas during the period between 600 BCE and 400 CE. It's also true that in the Americas, there was dirt. Any honest archaeologist will confirm that there was dirt in the Americas during the relevant time periods...and the Book of Mormon refers to dirt. The Book of Mormon mentions wood several times...and archaeologists have confirmed that there was wood during the relevant time periods. So far, so true.
Just as there are fictional elements in any dramatized movie or story that is based on a true story, there are also fictional elements in the Book of Mormon. For example, Lehi, Nephi, the building of transoceanic vessels, a magic 8-ball called Liahona, steel swords, Lamanites, Nephites, Jaredites, skin curses, Jesus appearing in Zarahemla, gold plates, Moroni, God touching rocks with his finger to turn them into glow stones, etc. appear to be entirely fictitious embellishments.
Paul H. Dunn's faith-promoting stories were based on true stories too. So we do find consistency in the Church. Paul H. Dunn was in the military. Paul H. Dunn played baseball. In that sense, Paul H. Dunn's far-fetched fanciful tales...as embellished, exaggerated and full of fantasy as they were...were nonetheless closer to a true underlying reality than the Book of Mormon is. But both the Book of Mormon and tales of Dunn are based on true stories to some limited extent.
Russell M. Nelson's story about his stoic and heroic demeanor and calmness as a passenger in the face of a dramatic and catastrophic engine failure in an airplane and the resultant terrifying death spiral from which the plane recovered only at the last minute due to divine providence...was based on a true story. The true story was that Nelson was a passenger on a plane that landed without incident at a nearby airport, prior to reaching the final destination, in order to check on one of it's engines.
I guess as long as things are based on true stories, Mormons can still obtain detectable trace elements of truths in their faith diet that will be worth their weight in tithing payments paid with Monopoly board-game money.
For such a fictional story, I might pay $5, but not 10% of my income.
Absolutely facinating
I just noticed the Pharaoh Unis reigned (2375-2345 BC) during Noah's flood (2348 BC) , according to Bishop Ussher's (1581-1656 AD) Bible literalist chronology.
Yeah, it’s interesting that every civilization on the planet just ignored that whole global flood thing and just went about their business.
Maybe the Church is starting to distance itself from the BOM.
They've wiped it from their Name now.
Who knows... maybe in 50 years the members will be studying from a Book Titled "Do As We Say".
I've really enjoyed this Series and will be reviewing it in days to come.
Thank You for providing this Expert Analysis and explaining it in terms that are so Understandable.
Dr Lundwall, tell us how your really feel about the church 😂. Thanks for sharing this info, it was something I hadn’t heard before. Very interesting.
Would Dallin H Oaks apply his quote to the scriptures of other religions? Has he evaluated their truth claims through the lens of revelation, faith and scholarship or can he reject the idea that we originated on an alien planet and traveled here in airplanes?
To go along with the section on what the Apostles have said, I've come to ask people to think if leaders of other organizations were saying the same thing. What if the Pope were saying such things to Catholics? What if the Dalai Lama were saying such things to Buddhists? What if it came from Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, or Scientology? Whether you agree or not, why? This is the kind of thinking people need to do far more.
Thank you so much
Is it fraud when you sell something that you claim exists, but it doesn’t exist? Tax the church.
It is imperative for faith to blind completely, that there is no evidence whatsoever. The less the evidence the more obedience can be extracted. Evidence would kill faith. It is important for the charade to be optimal that there is no evidence.
As a former MexiMormon ,THANK YOU! I too have been sounding the alarm of the Church appropriating anything indigenous to fit the fiction of the Book of Mormon. Truly the greatest work of subtle racism is at play!
This is very interesting -- I hope to hear more! However, the Book of Mormon t was passed down through a succession of Chief Priests, offering a legendary account of a tribe that called themselves "Nephites". Only a small group of "Nephite" aristocrats / priests knew the language or could read and write it. As Hugh Nibley pointed out, all those "And it came to pass'" are a poor translation (vis the U&T or the Stone) of a single Hebrew word. Bad translation may also explain the anachronisms.
On the other hand, the pearl of Great Price IS a "translation" of parts of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. As you point out, literalist Egyptian experts would (and do) reject Joseph Smith's more literary "translation" -- using KJV language that he knows so well. Everyone agrees that the Book of the Dead tells a story very similar to the endowment ceremony -- a ritual with vast and complex meaning. Criticism of the Joseph Smith Papyri. would've been more convincing if the actual text had been a love letter from King Tut tp Nephertiti.
First I have to agree that the Book of Mormon needs to be 100% historical or it and the church are a fraud, you made a statement if I understood correctly that church authorities/ priesthood get their authority from the Book of Mormon. As a missionary we would teach people that all authority comes from John the Baptist and Peter, James and John. Which would put authority as coming from Joesph Smith having a historical visitation from John the Baptist and the original Peter, James and John from the Bible.
You said it perfectly!
I don't see that the priesthood came from BOM. The book has nothing about priesthood. That was restored when "Peter, James and John appeared to Joseph and Oliver Coudry".
In this context, I don't think we're referring to formal priesthood authority that is conferred from one holder to another. It's "authority" that answers the question "why should anyone pay any attention to what these guys say?" If Joseph Smith was just a random guy who wrote down his opinions of how Christian beliefs should be interpreted and practiced, then nothing makes him stand out as someone deserving attention anymore than the thousands of other ordinary people spouting their personal opinions. Joseph Smith and the Church use the Book of Mormon as evidence of a miracle...a divine act of intervention and delivery of instructions. According to them, only the "power of God" can explain the existence of the Book of Mormon and no ordinary person, especially as uneducated and ignorant as Joseph Smith could have produced such a miraculous work (a "marvelous work and a wonder" in Mormon parlance). That's the authority used to support all of Joseph Smith's other claims, including his claims of revelation and receiving of the formal priesthood and so on. If he lied or was "mistaken" in his perceptions about the Book of Mormon, then everything else he claimed is easily just as dubious and suspect.
Just finished watching this podcast at 12:52 am somewhere in northern Louisiana. I could not stop and continue later, could not pause or tune off. Wow!!! Just wow!!! Don’t have much to add. I believe our very own Indiana Jones has spoken AND HAS SHOWN WITH FACTS, as in actual historical facts, what we need to know in order to arrive to a logical conclusion.
The only thing I have left to say is how I am feeling after watching this. My angry period happened a long time ago. I no longer scream as loud as I used to about how much falsehood there is in all of this. I no longer go to Mormon forums (late 90’s early 2000’s) to discus and show these Mormons the truth. I no longer cry of frustration and anger trying to tell my then Mormon husband (now Mormon only by name ex husband) what ridiculous things about Mormonism I was learning from Sandra and Jerald. I no longer feel the need to prove myself.
What I feel right now is a huge sadness for so many people who are being lied to straight faced. Good and trusting people who love these Sasquatches from hell!!!
So many broken people because of these men on the top who just manipulate, lie, and use everyone in the bottom to fulfill their own personal agenda. So so sad….
@@emilymiller4195 let me understand this correctly. Ru saying the book or Mormon doesn’t have to be historic in order for the LDS church to be true?
New to the channel but absolutely love the content. LOVE JOHN!! Holy smokes!! Great series. I hope Mormon truth seekers stumble across this series early in their search. It’s simply undeniable!! 🙏🏻😮💨🔥🤌🏼💪🏼
The brethren don’t want truth or proof. They want belief, obedience and control.
No, it does not need to be historical to be a book. It is definitely a book. The BoM is truly a book.
I understand Dr. Lundwall's passion concerning the grift perpetrated by the church. They use their power to threaten members into obedience, threatening their spirituality, their eternity, their families. It really may be just evil.
Is this the pyramid of UnAs? The spelling you have is UnIs. Just want to make sure I have the correct place John.
Yes it can be spelled either way.
I prayed and received an undeniable belief in sasquatch.. In reality, I'm not convinced by your contention that Moroni definitely wasn't an Aztec (or Mayan or whatever.) If they existed, it's obvious that the Nephites & Lamanites were small tribes -- since the BoM doesn't mention contact with other peoples. There's ample evidence that, if King Nephi existed, he could read & write (on gold, tin, tapir skin, or whatever) but the general population couldn't. Also remember that the BoM was written by Nephi for his grandchildren, from his rather arrogant perspective. Ie, much of the text is deceptive -- he wants to show his grandchildren how glorious he was. In other words, the Laminates might have been the good guys. The Mayans had a vast trading empire. Surely merchants had some method of tallying sales.
Perhaps the BoM was written by an arrogant cad on fool's gold, translated by another arrogant but ignorant cad sold to gullible farmers.
It's Pictionary , with no coaxing from the artist, and no finger on the nose.
Hoffman's Salamander had more truth. At least we can prove the existence of salamanders!
Dallin Yoaks, his yoke is tight and his burdens are heavy ---- exact opposite of Christ.
Most def not history. A mythology book. It is the scientology .1
When you compare the King Follett discourse, where God once was a human on another planet, then it's actually like scientology, which in OT3 (a level you reach on their ladder of salvation )0turns into a space religion where alien souls get latched onto your body.
Bumpin' off the BoM is getting old. This particular spin was good. But it's something for old folks. I'd say that a good theme should be ......What kinda revelatory novelty this spin to Jesus the Christ in Mormon theology brings to the Evangelical Community, so devoid of any canon.
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@@kurtgoodman6664 It's hard to decipher, but it appears to be some kind of message that was originally written in Reformed Egyptian and then translated into a Reformed Beatnik-Hipster dialect. Probably need a seer stone to get it into standard English. I tried a run at it with my seer stone, but all I got was some kind of Beatnik-Hipster rewording: "The BoM groove be skippin' hard, but don't be no blast for any daddy-o who got places to be. Them squares and cubes be hip to it like old school. But the cool cats be wigged out on it cuz they can't dig feelin the ride on the slide past this station til they noodle out some new-fashioned kicks to lay down on the church of the lost cause."
@@kurtgoodman6664 Simple. Whatever my generation experienced as " Mormon belief" and culture, will be gone in a generation. All this repetitive pounding over BofM historicity should be over by now. The question should be, ahead of the mark, what kind of improvement the LDS brings to notoriously canon-less Pentecostal and Evangelical sectors of American Christendom? Political Savvy? Organization? More Canon rigor? Or more of the same?
@@Coriantumr1 Interesting questions, if I understand them correctly. But once "Mormon belief" is gone (and the Book of Mormon being what it was originally claimed to be...is the so-called "keystone" to that), there's nothing left to distinguish the LDS church from the "canon-less" modern mush of American Christianity. As it is, the Book of Mormon provides no rudder or canonical rigor for anything and hasn't done so for many decades. But it is the origin story on which all of the other claims are based, including the leaders' claims that they've been especially appointed and anointed by Jesus to tell everyone else what to do (whatever they decide that may be from month to month and year to year) and collect and manage money for Jesus. Analyzing the non-historicity of the BoM is an act of opening prison doors for those among the imprisoned who have eyes to see, so to speak. With each passing year, there are different people who have begun to take off their faith blinders. It's an interesting discussion for those who are interested. If you feel that it's no longer relevant to anything that you're interested in, that's all about you. One size does not fit all. One topic is not the primary topic of interest for everyone universally.
They're kind of trying to replace the Book of Mormon's centrality in the faith with temples, which they are slapping up at an accelerated pace. The problem is that the temples are just The Emperor's New Clothes redux, redux (and the BoM was The Emperor's New Clothes redux). The temples are whited sepulchres marketed to the flock as the pinnacle of Mormon spiritual experience. Inside, it's just mumbo-jumbo and a sales pitch for Mormon underwear, taking place in a somewhat gaudy version of a 1950s upscale hotel lobby...all available to any member who can prove that they are worthy of such a spiritual treat by (a) routinely telling/confessing their deepest secrets to an unpaid local Mormon leader whose day job may be insurance sales, plumbing, retail management or accounting; and (b) confirming to such local leaders, with receipts and paperwork, on annual basis that they've forked over 10% of all of their wages, tips, capital gains and interest income to the LDS Church.
What kind of improvement can the LDS Church bring to other sects? None at all...unless the tight-fisted LDS leaders decide to give their hoard of money and assets away to other sects...or depending on how you define "improvement". If anything, the current and future leaders have been moving in the direction of simply blending in with the canon-less modern "sectors of American Christendom"...incrementally...so as to not shock the main body of current tithepayers into waking up to the reality of the big wealth extraction business that they've mistaken for a religion all their lives. For more than a century, the LDS Church has simply brought up the rear with regard to prevailing political and religious sensibilities, usually lagging about 20 years behind the mainstream of society.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N
I like how you think!
I think the church made the rules wrt the truth...
hahaha this is bogus, if you need proof that the Book of Mormon is true.....Read it in Hebrew. In Hebrew the Book of Mormon is clearer, has better syntax, and the numerous names such as Mosiah are Hebrew and have texual significance. No one but No one could have achieved that unless they were fluent in Hebrew and knew ancient Hebrew motiffs. Shalom.
This argument makes no sense since the book was never written in Hebrew and there is no original Hebrew to read. Any Hebrew Book of Mormon would be a translation from the English. My guess is you can’t even read Hebrew and you are taking the word of some LDS scholar on this. Fiddler On the Roof is probably better in Hebrew too but that doesn’t make it true. Shalom.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 Haha there have been Hebrew translations of the Book of Mormon since the 1920s. One of my friends is an Israeli soft ware designer . One of the best in the world. He read the Book of Mormon in Hebrew. He and many others say the text is easier to read in Hebrew. His first language. There are numerous words in Hebrew in the Book of Mormon not found in the Bible. In the 1960s Yigael Yadin the head of the Israeli Archelogical department found the Hebrew name " Alma" in a contract in a purse near the Dead Sea written thousands of years ago. He said it matched the name "Alma" in the Book of Mormon. I guess you are guessing because you are ignorant.
Kind of interesting on the plate thickness, thin sheets of tempered copper covered with a soft layer of thin gold definitely seem possible. Here is a video of a bit softer copper than the high temper of approximately .01 inches, and they also demonstrate a .007 inch sheet. ruclips.net/video/63dSu3ZGYwk/видео.htmlsi=Vij6GsEYMUMKhHck I get Lundwall is not a metallurgist so probably venturing into area that he doesn't have any experience in, so probably best to stick to the topics in which he is trained. Anyway, found the podcast to be interesting.
Did anyone notice how much more ADULT this podcast was? Hmmmm , I wonder why🤔
Because ancient culture depended on nature's fertility, thus ancient religion was full of fertility and sexuality symbols. Wake up from your Victorian world.
Haha! We provided meat not milk…information for adults not infants!
Lundwall is an archaeologist, right? No. Anthropologist? No. Historian? No. He's not even a linguist. If he were, he'd know that several English words and even phrases can be represented by a simple symbol. Lucy Mack Smith is reported to have said her son had such detail about the ancient people that it was as if he had lived there himself. I just think this much ado about nothing. Wanna leave the church, fine. Just accept it as your decision without trying to rationalize or encourage others to leave as well. I can't think of a greater waste of energy.
Dr. Lundwall works in the field of archeology and has his Bachelor’s in English so yes he does know that English phrases cannot be represented by one symbol as he explains in the episode but you are probably right knowing the truth about Book of Mormon historicity is probably no big deal!
@@mormonishpodcast1036 Anyone can "work" in the field of Archaeology. A bachelors in English means he has read Shakespeare or Chaucer. It does not make one a linguist familiar with other languages. Sorry to disappoint.