Flail FAQ - The Mangual! Weapon or Toy?
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- Опубликовано: 12 май 2023
- The second part of my Flail FAQ series. Here I summarize my thoughts on the mangual regarding the question of whether it was a real weapon that was actually used, or just a training tool. Of course I can't prove my conclusion at the end, it is my personal opinion under the pure aspect of the handling of this "weapon".
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A tremendous advantage of an unpredictable and dangerous weapon like a flail is that in real combat people don't want to get hurt. In training it's fun for your student to rush in but if the price for failure was death or terrible injury they would be much more cautious and possibly choose not to risk coming inside your range at all. Against a predictable weapon when you see a clear opening you can have greater confidence that you can exploit it and not be injured yourself. Against a flail there is always doubt that you'll pay dearly for your aggression even if you strike your opponent.
Thanks for the research you're doing! I agree with all your findings based on my own experience sparring with similar weapons. They're really fun, a little impractical compared to the commonly used weapons of the day, but quite difficult to fight against if you have any sense of self preservation.
Exactly, you bring it on point :)
Yes ... and no.
During the Napoleonic wars French officers complained that after having provoked English officers into duels (outside of the battlefields) those English duelists would charge the French duelists without concern for their own safety, thus skewing the Frenchmen who did not know how to defend against barbaric madmen unconcerned for their own safety. (see "The Romance of Dueling in All Times and Countries" by Andrew Steinmetz 1868)
Yes, a lot of people would choose to remain safe if they can and keep their distance to an opponent with an unknown or unpredictable weapon or an opponent who appears unpredictable irrelevant to the weapon. "People don't want to get hurt" is absolutely true, but "in real combat" you don't normally have much of a choice. Otherwise all wars in history would have played out as two sides looking at each other but never moving close enough to come into weapons range.
Like Hrothgar the Saxon points out and many other period accounts verify it is a contextual issue only. Time and time again people can see that there are worse outcomes than death; maybe the loss of your children or even the loss of honor which could turn you into a pariah and become unable to continue your life anyhow or perhaps the pursuit of some goal may seem worth it.
Here's the thing, if I had a facon and I saw a guy with a knife, I'd say I'm doing okay, if I saw a guy with a flail, yeah...
@@HrothgarTheSaxonConsidering that ranks existed specifically to stop fighters from just running away, and that most melee warfare was a battle of morale more than almost anything else, I'd say you're still greatly exaggerating based off one example.
You quote the French calling the English duelists "barbaric", but considering they were officers, I'd say they were more likely just bold and clever. If the French duelist seemed to retreat often, the most effective strategy is to rush them, as it's clear they are a timid fighter, thus the Englishman wins. Calling that barbaric is just noble malding over the fact they were the worse fighter.
However, that is an example of experienced fighters against one another. The mangual is presumably not for fighting duels or battlefield roles, but rather more of a crowd-control and training weapon. It's worth in those things is far more clear. Civilians are far less likely to willingly injure themselves to hurt someone, and as a training weapon it makes you focus more on flow and weapon positioning than a montante, the weapon it helps you train for.
Thank you for this. Very insightful to flails which can be overlooked in modern fantasy or medieval recreations for film, video games, etc.
I'm so glad professional HEMA practitioners are slowly proving once and for all that the flail was not something the middle ages dreamt about in a fever dream. It existed, it was used, it had its advantages and disadvantages (y'know, like EVERY WEAPON EVER MADE), and if you trained enough with it it was genuinely a dangerous weapon that was hard to defend against.
So tired seeing history buffs know-it-alls pushing their glasses up on the internet and saying it was NEVER a thing because it was "too dangerous for the wielder", not even once considering that maybe they just aren't training hard enough or implementing proper techniques.
Word! ⚔️
I think usually the one handed Ball flail that is in question not so much the 2 handed ones !
Question: how many times did you hit yourself with it during practice?
With the metal reconstruction actually not at all...i did however sometimes try to hit myself on purpose like in the video...but that was very soft.
With the tennis ball simulator it was more difficult when the student constantly pushes you away...then it quickly becomes difficult to control.
"The three-part head increases the hit area enormously."
Thank you sir, you have answered a long standing question for me!
Feels like this more a weapon for the city "guards" like the flail was often used in german cities. Probably useful for "deescalating" a pub fight. There is a german rapier manual that mentions flails in a similar context. I would also guess that if they were used in war then probably mostly on the ramparts. But great that we can see more of the less known weapons in action.
You handle the Mangual really good,solid and constante moviesments really is the way of the Magual,very cool weapon!
Its always a privilege to find new content on this channel! My take away from the Mangual, Hussite Flail, Battle swords and Pole arms is that they require very high stamina and very good core strength compared to so many other weapons. The amount of onlique movement and near constant movement, requires way more athleticism to be able to defend. But the return in power is far greater of course!
Man!
You can really see the strengths and weaknesses of this thing!😮
Fantastic video, I love these kind of breakdowns!
Can you imagine the situation that arose where this weapon was used 'in a serious dispute'?
Hol' up. I'mma go get my mangual, beeech.
Eine flexible Waffe ist schwerer zu kontrollieren für Anwender und Gegner und hat definitiv seinen Reiz. Damit zu üben bringt dem Kämpfer neue Erkenntnisse und verbessert seine Fähigkeiten auch wenn man normalerweise mit einer Klinge kämpft.
Vielen Dank für das Video und Glück Auf!
Love your stuff, keep it up! I really like your tire pell as well!
As always, your channel is a treasure trove of information. I'm hoping for the day where you do videos for axes and maces. If there's a channel that can pull that elusive rabbit out of a hat, I know it's yours.
Even if I don't consider the flail a good choice in most scenarios - great video as usual!
If you make the balls really heavy, like lead fillings or so, you could use this quite well against armour. It's also ergonomic, since you don't transfer the percussive shock after hitting the target.
Perfect for the next zombie apocalypse!
Great and lovely. Looking forward to swing your mangual at hanseschlag and feel the difference as montantero.
remember me when its time :)
Flail is my favorite weapon because it allows you to get over the shieldwall
Yep. The majority of people are unable to see this. The flail is meant to be used in a violent and single strike manner. Too many hollywood one to one combat demostration. When used on the battlefield, the people behind the first line don't know what hit them.
Super informative video!
I also think the mangual might have served a specialized role. Maybe bodyguard just like the montante? It just being a training tool and nothing else seems a bit weird to me.
If I may ask, where did you get your steel mangual?
And is it possible for you to make a small video tutorial showing us how to build the sparring safe mangual?
Great video! Keep it up!
Sehr cooles Video mit einer spannenden Waffe! Danke Björn und Bussis aus Wien! :)
Da kommen direkt die Bussis zurückgeflattert... bis spätestens zum Dreynevent :D
Awesome.
Cheers!
Thankd for sharing
Very nice.
Using the flail to hook or reap an opponents weapon would seem to be A gamble. Going at their hands would seem less risky.
Great content, as always.. If the spear man was more aggressive and the swordsman had a bucker, they might have had more hits.
By one of the illustrations alone you could see it being useful to get a strike in on a horse opponent with a shield where a spear would be deflected.
Turks, Tatars, Ruthenians and Poles used one-handed flails (Кистень /kiścień) as cavalry weapons against lightly armoured opponents, the head was around 250g of weight; from what I found basic strikes were similar to that of a really heavy whip.
That psychological deterrent for defense isn't to be underrated, if the heads of the mangual were built to make a whistling/loud audible sound as they swung that could freak out the opponent
4:27 The moment your flail wraps around the halberd's head she should charge and stick the spike into you - if it's only the 2 of you.
Yep...bad situation for me :)
@ could you not rip out out their hands like you did with the sword or choke up on the chain and get into grappling distance?
Staff guy: I will poke without making contact, to show the opening was there.
sword guy: MURDERRRR
Tangling a Halberd could be viewed as a feature since you now also have partial control over their weapon lol
Thats true
Many of the flail chains I’ve seen have chain links that are offset to prevent binding and tangling, like a dog chain. I wonder if that would effect getting tangled in the halberd?
Okay question is the one handed flail used in the off hand for distraction traping keeping your distance and make opening in opponents defense like the parrying dagger
Interessant, aber für sowas hab ich zuviel Schiss mich selbst zu verletzen.
Interesting, but for something like that I am to much afraid of hurting myself. 😅
Like i said...just dont stop^^
@ true.
@@thomaswilkinson3241 If you use a sharp montante and do some reglas, there is also alot potential of self-destruction. What I can say is, be calm, know what part of the weapon can hit you, don't stop to swing and/or end the energy in long moves.
As with using firearms we say it's quicker to switch to sidearm than re-load, maybe the same is the case with the Mangual? Maybe if it gets tangled quickly go to a Langmesser or Seax type weapon, just a theory.
I guess it is like you said...if someone uses that special tool for a specific situation he would also have a main weapon equipped.
Like in modern times: "gimme a grenade mate...lets hit them behind the trench..."
@ Yes, I was just thinking a Mangual could be used to tangle a row of Halberds to create a hole in a rank of men. But as you said it would be a specific situation and I suppose anything is possible.
Hi Björn. 😊
If its hard to use with protection gear maybe its hard to use in historical armor as well ?
Full armor would be really hard...but maybe partly attached like breast, helmet, gloves...that could work.
@ I think a called Krebs (Breastplate and belly fold) and a open face helmet would be ideal for this !
Maybe some chain mail pieces on the right spots would be great as well !
@@killerkraut9179 yeah i was also thinking about that kind of armor :)
Dont know if youll see this, however I was wondering how a shorter handled flail would work as a thrown weapon? I imagine it being used like a bolas against calvary horses and the like.
7 minutes of Björn Rüther? why not
Haha, thats lovely mate :)
7 minutes arent that long !
@@killerkraut9179 yeah i want 49 minutes
The Japanese have a flail-like weapon called the kusari bundo, but it has the potential to hurt itself and is not very practical...
exactly, thats the point...i guess such weapons are special tools for a specific situation if they where used in serious combat...but was not a main-weapon.
how did shorter handle + longer chain treat your wrists? with heavy balls not dummy.
Ravis in Star Wars Jedi uses a similar weapon
If the flail or Montante user is stock on the helbeard i think then the Healbeard user hase often the advantage !
Mh, good question...
I even say almost everytime, since all the halberd bearer needs to do is step forward and thrust you into oblivion.
Obviously you can try to parry, but I don't think you will hardly be able to do that.
@ If the Flail guy get stock on the healbeard if he pulls , then he will pull to them self, most likely then maybe the healbeard guy hase just give in and thrust and go forward !
I think maybe this healbeard was to real to test that , maybe test it with a healbead who is less real ?
Are there any Iberian fight manuals that describe the use of the Mangual in combat/duelling? I'm aware of the snippets from Talhoffer's works and Opus Amplissimum.
Unfortunately not :(
@ Sad times, thanks anyway. I'm writing a piece on flails (more aimed at all the many/unknown early medieval sources), will happily share when finished.
@@lolroflpmsl Defenitely do that. Im curious :)
would give more than one thumb up. but stupid wont let me do that 😡
really nice, buddy👍
Thx 😊
It can deflecting arrow ? Someone try it ?
I don t think it was just gimmick...the word Mangual is kept to this time in Spanish, it s also a Toponimic and Patronimic....and in heraldry almost always the actual medieval item is present for the Surname. So it was important enough at some time in my opinion.
I could easily see this being used as a sort of "less lethal" crowd control weapon used by guards to clear the masses out of an area.
Against armed opponents? Your demo seems to show there are far better options.
something
or something, who knows... :)
I hope the beauty in your videos is yours, I feel like you deserve a hotty like that 😆
Great video as always, fantastic demonstration of the weapons capabilities and its shortcomings.
Where there any weapons that were used by city guards against the populace or weapons to disrupt riots?
Blame "Kill Bill Volume 1" for the increased love of chain-based weapons. My favorite, though, is from the comic book series "Kabuki" by David Mack. The main character is a female who uses a sickle with a weighted chain attached to the handle. Yes, she's dangerous. ;)
Не понимаю чего он на месте то стоит? Нужно двигаться. Да и такими ударами серъезных ран не нанесешь. Такое себе видео.