"Continue HOLDING, Not ROLLING! CONTINUE HOLDING!" Real ATC Audio
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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I was the pilot of N134VU. Funny to see this pop up again all this time later! This was back in 2020 when I was working on my instrument rating. I was doing my IFR cross-country with my instructor in the right seat while I was under the foggles. Just for clarity, the animation here is inaccurate. We did not do a low approach before the runway incursion occurred. We were quite a ways out to the north, flying the RNAV 17 approach into KSLN for a touch and go before continuing on. That's why you hear me report crossing the final approach fix as we were instructed to do so by the tower controller. We could hear the difficulties the controller was having with the pilot of N1307G, so I was already on high alert. As we reached the approach minimums, my instructor called out "Runway in sight, 12 o'clock." simulating that we had "broken out" and I removed my foggles. As I did, I saw N1370G crossing the hold short line and entering the runway. Without hesitation, I immediately called "Going around." and powered up. My instructor made the "Going around." radio call for me to remove some of the workload. We continued on from there and the rest of the trip was uneventful. Dealing with a runway incursion at approach minimums made this a very close and startling close call but it highlights why it's important as a pilot to pay attention to other traffic on the frequency for situational awareness. The pilot of 07G sounded very unsure of himself and confused. Likely a student pilot on his first solo. I squarely place the blame on 07G's instructor for letting their student solo when they clearly weren't fully prepared, as well as the controller's use of nonstandard phraseology. Some context that's lost is the fact that there was really no reason for him to hold 07G as long as he did. I feel like he was annoyed with 07G and was just holding him up to be petty. We were quite a ways out and he could have released 07G long before we arrived. However it may have had to do with the fact that we were on an IFR flight plan and had priority handling, but I don't know the ATC rules surrounding all that. I also feel like the main reason that 07G wasn't given a pilot deviation for this incident is the fact that the controller knew that he was partially to blame for his phraseology that would have been evident in the tapes, so he chose to just let it go.
Oh my god! I've never heard of foggles, but the name alone makes them my new favorite thing! From now on, I'll be using the phrase "wearing their foggles" to describe someone who fails to grasp something that's being explained. Rose-colored glasses no longer sit alone on the specialty eyewear shelf!
agreed
"Continue" seems like troublesome phraseology. Maybe just reaffirm, "Hold short ... ".
good point.... some times ya gotta dumb it down for the dummies.... 🤣
@@mrmustangman It isn't about it being dumb, the phrases used in aviation are designed to NOT sound like any other words that could be confused, in my country there is NO WAY they say "Continue holding", the phrase used is "WAIT". Otherwise it is "HOLD SHORT". Because exactly this reason here, rolling sounds a lot like holding.
@@TheWhiteOwl23 that's what i said.!!!!!!
Standard phraseology would've helped here. "Hold short" is harder to mistake than "continue holding".
who would say "continue rolling"?
@@don12459 Why say continue???
@@allgrainbrewer10 continue literally infers PROCEED. atc wasnt even mad. it is what it is
@@johndonovan7018 well, ATC sounded a bit mad, to be fair (but that may have been because he already had been annoyed by that aircraft)...
I think a clearer answer would be better too. Like
"This is Tower G4Y, no, not yet C3PO, continue holding"
Runway incursion for sure. The controller will get a contributing factor for phraseology. No matter how many times and every time it is "callsign, hold short"(reason optional)
The sincere apology kept him from jotting down a phone number :)
In some countries it is mandatory to report instances like this.
He probably did, it just wasn't shown in this video. You can be nice all you want but it still needs to be reported to the FAA.
The controller probably knew he would get the blame for using non standard phraseology. Better to just pretend it didn't happen.
I bet my savings that he did get a number to call. It wasn’t great from either side but it has to be reported. Sincere or otherwise.
for what. atc isnt in the clear here
I don’t know how anyone could possibly understand half this stuff that’s being mumbled into a microphone 😂
🎯
As a highly experienced pilot, continue holding is not a proper instruction. Hold short of runway should have been used. Not sure about the communication in this video but giving an approximate time to call back tower is normally given. The word (continue) should never be pronounced by ATC.
You are correct, but in no way are the words "continue rolling" considered a take-off clearance. But student pilots will student pilot, I guess.
To add to that, though, the more correct phraseology here would have been "hold short, arriving traffic."
Uhm, I hear "continue" often used as in "continue approach" when landing clearance would typically be expected but can't be given just yet. I realize it's a different situation, though.
Id be more empathetic if "continue holding" wasnt communicated and affirmed 5 minutes earlier.
You can’t be that experienced if you don’t think “continue holding is improper” lol🤣
Least he understood and acknowledged his mistake. He’s on the right path to becoming an excellent pilot if he sticks at it. I hope he’s a student solo and not a PPL holder tho.
Excellent? Uh…his performance was not convincing enough to warrant an excellent potential rating.
@@chuckinhouston9952 Are you really whining that I’m wishing the kid well?
@@AV4Life Probably. And acknowledging mistakes openly does show that one is "on the right path to becoming...excellent", because acknowledging mistakes shows willingness to learn from them, without which improvement becomes impossible after a while.
We arrived at "standard RT" for a reason. All this other stuff including "continue holding" just ups the probability that someone will mis-interpret or hear what they want to hear. The phrase should have just been "hold short runway 17".
There's been a fix for this for DECADES but the aviation industry won't adopt digital communications technology. That's why everyone's got worse communication than an 80's McDonalds drivethrough.
I am very surprised that N1307G didn't get a phone number to copy.
Pilot mumbles like he just woke up.
seems to fly/taxi like it too
Why did the ATC have him sit there for five minutes without an explanation?
he was already mad at him for not announcing his intentions after landing. it was just a power trip at that point.
I read it as 4 minutes plus another five. Nine minutes burning gas with nothing going on is wasting the guys time.
If you didn't know, there's an extension of Kansas State University there that's for Technology and Aviation. I'm sure this was probably a student and the tower sounds like he is used to dealing with students.
It would be better to say "Hold." Not "Continue holding." What's easier to understand when garbled. "_old." or "Continue ____ing."
agree - is "continue holding" standard phraseology? better for a struggling pilot to just say hold short of Runway XYZ at Foxtrot, or continue to hold short of Runway XYZ
Man, the ego of some controllers can really piss you off..
180 and hold was the start of it all , should have had him taxi back to full length , give everyone time to get set up on the same page again ...
I see questions about the length of time the aircraft was held. Impossible to know from the tape. I would like to point out the controllers often have other duties in the tower that the public is not aware, especially if they are by themselves. They might be cutting a new ATIS, taking a land line phone call, doing log entries, tabulating hourly traffic counts, among others. And yes, they might make a pilot wait a small amount of time while doing it. Especially if they have a high maintenance pilot that the controller wants to make sure they are paying 100% attention to. As for the hold short phraseology. Once a pilot has acknowledged a hold short instruction, which happened, the controller is not required to restate it just because they are responding to the pilot saying they are ready. The controller could have just said "Roger". There is no clearance onto a runway that sounds remotely like "continue holding". Without a valid clearance the pilot had no business rolling onto the runway.
Continue.... Holding 🤔
I put that on ATC. Improper instruction, and he mumbled it. Obviously a fairly inexperienced pilot in the Cessna- certainly not a 747 driver- so it's on ATC to make sure they are heard and understood. Stuff like this is even more common at Class C where you get a mix of small aircraft, student aircraft, and airline traffic. Usually those guys in the tower figure it out pretty quick and change their speech per the pilot they are talking to.
Why not Hold short instead of Contiue holding, wouldn't it be more clear ?
Regards,
Jean-François
hmm was the ATC punishing the cessna pilot by making him hold for 6 minutes ?
No.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 hope your right
@@jostmathe they won’t “punish” people. That’s just pity. But we don’t know what was going on in the tower. Sometimes they are on a call to approach control. Maybe he was also doing ground and clearance delivery and he was giving someone a clearance. Who knows. 🤷🏻♂️
I’ve never *cough*, *cough* punished a pilot. Well…. Maybe they went from #1 to #last at times. DAL stood for Delta Always Last.
@@michaelhall9138 😅
I don't understand how they can hear eachother when the line is so muffled ;o;
6 minutes of waiting? I suppose there might have been 12 other undepicted airplanes coming in to land during that time or that might just point to why there was no deviation after another plane was forced to go missed.
I'm assuming from experience that they were figuring out his intentions. He told them he wanted to depart, but they needed to know where to and if he is requesting flight following, etc.
He made him wait for 6 minutes, why?
i was asking the same thing.
Probably due to IFR traffic (both departing and inbound). Even if the weather is clear the IFR separations must be maintained between all the traffic. VFR traffic is second priority to traffic on an IFR flight plan in controlled airspace.
@@capchuckpriceutyoub Thanks for your reply.
Of course, pilot misunderstood, but controller keeping him there for 5mins idling? This is a small airport...not much going on.
Yeah that happens. Sometimes longer than that. They don't roll people so they don't have to wait. I was a crew chief on Blackhawks for 21 years. I spent a lot of time "idling". And I never complained once because my ass wanted to live.
I’ve held short a lot longer than five minutes. Just how it shakes out sometimes.
Usually, workload permitting, ATC will advise the crew/pilot the reason for the hold and estimated duration.
the pilot sounds stoned.
Was that not pilot deviation though!
I'm noticing a pattern in many of these videos. A large number of the pilots that are making these mistakes seem to have accents.
And a lot of the controllers screwing up their instructions don’t.
why didn't the atc just have him circle back to the beginning of the runway
No reason to. There's plenty of runway for a 172 from there.
COffee perhaps?
This dude didn't get deviated for a runway incursion with another aircraft on final???
Why was this pilot held for 6 minutes at the hold-short line?! Was the tower punishing him for not answering the "where do you need to go" question immediately? Did the tower really have no gaps in arrivals large enough to safely get the Cessna off the ground? According to Wikipedia, KSLN averaged 194 aircraft operations a day in 2023. One definition of "aircraft operations" involves interactions and/or direction of aircraft by ATC. Not only landings, but takeoffs would fall under "aircraft operations". So KSLN handles 97 aircraft a day on average, none of them full-sized commercial airliners. The tower made N1307G wait with engine running for over 6 minutes at an airport that sees nothing larger than a commuter airline (SkyWest d.b.a. "United Express") using Bombardier CRJ100/200 aircraft. The tower controller appears to have more issues than just his phraseology.
Sounds like Tower is on a power trip, probably fed up with all the student pilots at his airport. In my opinion, either he toughens up or resigns.
Sounds like a student pilot on his first short-cross country flight. There's a lot on your mind at that time if anyone recalls.
The hotshot controller sounds like he's running jets out of LaGuardia and doesn't have time for such nonsense. A nervous student pilot who's being belittled by the controller is now a danger to everyone in the pattern. No fault of his own. Just needs some direction, not that emotional child in the tower.
I thought the controller was exceptionally nice to let him off.
The controller was fine. Pilots shouldn’t need to be handled as snowflakes.
The pilot is a mumbler, probably ESL and really should not be out here terrorizing our airspace with his careless attitude and unintelligible comms.
"Just listen more carefully. "... they need better radios with better sound, too much noise there
Why was he held for so long? He sat there for 7 minutes!
Doesn’t matter how long he sat there.
Irrelevant.
That kind of pilot you wait for a large gap.
Cessna 07G STOP!! STOP!! STOP!!
Indeed. And then "break // other guy, go around".
Just gotta ask, as ATC are you permitted to do something like send 7G back to holding short for, say, 20 or 30 minutes? Not saying I would be vindictive if I were an ATC, but asking for a friend...
Technically pilot can't take off until cleared for take off. I don't know what Tower was trying to prove here honestly. Sounds like he was on a power trip trying to make this what sounds like a student pilot's life difficult for his own amusement. What lesson was to be learned here? That pilots should always do what ATC says? Even if they vector you into terrain or other traffic? Or tell you how to fly your airplane during a go around in an unsafe manner that causes you to spin stall and crash killing everyone on board? Tower is 100% in the wrong here. Can't fault the student cause they're learning.
Guy sounds like he is on sleeping pills
Controller needs disciplinary action for making him wait there for 6+ minutes for no legitimate reason.
We don't know why there was a hold. Potentially there was a string of airplanes coming in.
Controller's fault for using non standard phraseology. He should have known better when dealing with an obvious low time pilot.
the amount of feedback on these shitty audio systems is ridiculous. using words like holding and rolling is also ridiculous. what's wrong with 'stop' and 'go'? or continue waiting?
That pilot sounds impaired.
Always a common denominator with these student pilots causing mayhem
What is the common denominator?
yeah what is the common denominator
That guy sounded over his head. His instructor needs to spend some more time with him
The controller??? agreed.
controllers don't need to add their sarcastic remarks just talk
I'm with atc, too many pilot apologists on these videos.
wannabe?? name checks out.
I'm sorry about that for before.. Let me fuck up again!
Dumb ATC and dumb pilot - "cessna 07G hold short of runway 14, expect a few minutes delay" - should have been the conversation - american ATC hates ICAO standards in phraseology.
American ATC here, and I love standardized ICAO phraseology. It ensures pilots and atc are all on the same page. When i issue instructions, I don't want to guess what the pilot is going to do. I want to know what he will do. Some people are just lazy, but that doesn't mean we all are.
@@derekjeffords345 glad to hear it!!
@@derekjeffords345 no, of course, but when one listens to these videos, it just seems like a recurring pattern that American ATC and pilots use sloppier phraseology, sometimes much sloppier, than what is used in Europe or possibly elsewhere. Generalizing is bad if that means assuming everyone is like that, but it's good if it means noticing statistical issues that may be worth addressing. Also it's entirely understandable "socially" that people with the same native language would end up speaking more casually than ones always used to talking in English to people of various nationalities, but it being understandable doesn't mean it's the best for aviation safety...
Just another pilot with bad english proficiency. Should not be flying in American airspace.
Actually the ATC didn't use proper phraseology. But it's par for the course for native speakers to always think they're the ones in the right even when regulations say you should use standard phraseology because you should *not* assume everyone is a native/fluent English speaker (which is not actually what's required of pilots or ATC, what is required is that they know the standard phraseology).
@@LjL-Videos I get that. I really do. But, they should understand more then just the basics. They should have a basic understanding of the English language beyond the basics of pilot to tower communications.
@@BrotherTimothyClark yes, I've definitely heard pilots I thought had English that just wasn't good enough. With this one I'm not sure I have enough context to go on honestly, but at least as to the specific "continue holding/rolling" misunderstanding, I don't know if people whose native language is English can really grasp how hard it can be to understand the language even while being reasonably proficient at it and having learned it for many years: I have difficulty myself understanding the ATC's call, and I think you can see that my written English is at least okay... the first call where the ATC says "continue holding", which was respected, was clearer, but the second one is not. And that's precisely why standard phraseology exist and the way it's designed is to avoid having words/phrases that sound the same. English is a language with about 30 vowels (it's hard even to properly count them), in comparison to the most common pattern in world languages being 5 vowels... I know this stuff a bit as I have some linguistics/phonetics knowledge. Just this fact (although the vowels weren't specifically the issue here) may give a hint of how hard it can be, nevermind when it comes to very fast speaking, different dialects, and radio quality and interference. By the way, American pilots are often guilty themselves, when flying abroad, of trying to give ATC elaborate explanations in English that ATC is just not going to be able to understand (and that they aren't really taught or required to understand), but surely that doesn't warrant evicting American pilots from international airspace...
@@LjL-Videos I have to agree with this. Definitely true.
@@LjL-Videos Very good points, but at least language-wise it comes down to "continue". The pilot was not "rolling" and so can't "continue rolling". That should have had him questioning the directive. Or maybe he thought it meant 'go back to rolling like you were 6min before'?!
We need to quit training non American pilots
Maybe start training ATC to use standard phraseology too. Since that's actually required, and this ATC didn't, as repeatedly stated by pilots and other ATC in these comments.