Ron, I was amazed to see this video title, because I am the IP who had this experience, and I've told the story for decades now. It was at Columbus AFB, about 1973. Short version: we got into a nice spin and my Iranian student did everything wrong. Just flailed the controls seemingly at random. Naturally, the spin wound up tighter than an eight-day clock. Finally, he let go of the controls, crossed his arms and - staring straight ahead - said those famous words. It was at that point that I took over, of course. Flew the plane back to the field and flunked him on the ride. Which got me into hot water because due to State Dept pressure, it was very difficult to wash out Iranians. Until I told my Squadron commander what had happened. I was forgiven; the student was not. So it is in fact a true story.
Wow and thanks for sharing! I was hoping someone would come forward with more details but straight from the source is the best! One of my favorite IP stories. Like your details even better!
@@ronrogers His actual words were "I am not afraid to die." I love doing that story with an Iranian accent. I later became Chief of Check Section where my duties were to fly all the final washout rides. Telling young men their dream was over was soul-draining. But I also passed some and even soloed one or two on their "99" ride.
@@ronrogers There isn't a lot more. From day one, I was considered to be a "Senior IP" because I had just turned Captain and had combat time as a FAC. They gave me the table closest to the door - symbolic of it being a poor student's last chance. I got almost nothing but poor students that other IPs couldn't teach. I managed to get a lot of them soloed, even my overly generous share of foreign students, Iranians included. This particular guy only flew with me a few times before he washed out - he was truly incapable of grasping either English or "airplane". Then there was my favorite, a giant man named Isah Badaki, but that story will have to wait.
I want to share a horrifying story with you. And perhaps hear your opinion. I was a danish student pilot at Webb AFB in 1974 (74-06) and graduated a year later. As many other students I had very little flying experience before getting into the T-37. I had my first 25-30 flying hours in a Chipmunk in the Danish Air Force before getting sent to Texas and then about 25-30 hours in a Cessna 172 to get a little practice with a second airplane and with the desert surroundings and the american language. At the time I thought I was pretty good at english but I still had to think about every sentence, though. Speaking in the microphone was easy because what one needs to say is mostly standardized flight speak. Getting into the T-37 was very exciting, of course. A real jet with two engines, ejection seat and oxygen. Plus the airfield had two long concrete runways and there was lots of traffic in the air. I felt 100 percent awake and excited all the time. It was wonderful and I was indeed happy. As I recall, we had to fly a first solo after around 10 flying hours. It was a short and simpel task. All we had to do was to fly one rectangular pattern, use the prescribed radio calls and then land safely and return the airplane to the parking area. That was it. Simple…. right? I was young and selfconfident. I had around 60 hours of flying experience. What could go wrong? So, I got into the plane, strapped in and adjusted the seat height. You had to use leg muscles to adjust it. I was unlocked and locked with a latch. Almost as in a car, only up and down. I did everything as I was taught. I took off at runway 170R because the t-37's always flew from that runway whereas the left runway was used by the T-38's. As soon as I was airborn I raised gear and flaps, getting ready for the initial turn. So… 60 degrees bank and a pull at the stick. That was when the seat latch broke loose. The seat slammed into the floor with a loud bang. I could see nothing outside, only my right hand on the stick in front of my nose. In that critical moment I remembered a sentence that one of the instructors said a few days earlier, "If anything goes wrong, always get wings level first". Behind the stick was the artificial horizon. I looked at it and realized that I was in a shallow dive, perhaps 5 degrees. Talk about getting awake. I felt a fire in the back of my neck because I knew I had extremely little time to react. Wing level, stick back in that order. I established at climp of 10 degrees and started breathing again. I climped to about 800 feet before I dared to level off to touch the seat latch and stretch the legs to raise the seat to a normal position. But it turned out that it is very difficult to adjust the seat while flying. It is impossible to do it without moving the sensitive stick. So I loosened the latch and stretched my legs. Immediately the seat went to the top position, again violently. And now the plane was in a dive. But I was able to look out the window so I could level off and return to 800 feet. As You can guess the heading was about 220 degrees and the airfield was getting smaller in the mirrors. I was headed for the big hazy desert. I tried again to adjust the seat, now with the opposite result. The seat at the floor again and a steep climp. Once more and I paused… now at the top position. Leveled off again at 800 feet height. I knew that I had to say something to the tower, but what…? It felt like a difficult conversation, especially with my language level, which I suddenly understood could be a lot better. But I didn't want to disappear over the desert. I wanted to keep the airfield in sight. So I decided to circle. Not with a 2g turn (60 degrees bank), but a little less, perhaps 1.5 g's - around 45 degree bank which I never tried before. This would be a greater turn, perhaps even close to the traffic over the airfield. So I decided to make a left turn, 45 degree bank, and then try the seat again. This would give me a smaller speed difference from the other traffic than a right turn, should I get too close. The big turn could give me a chance to get the seat right… and perhaps give me some time to figure out what to say in the microphone. Preferably something simple yet adequate. I climped to 1000 feet on order to get the best view of the airfield as the turn got closer to it and kept trying to adjust the seat. Suddenly the seat stopped maybe five inches above the position I was used to. I figured it would be possible to land the T-37 with it. So I focused on the landing pattern which I could overview easily from my position about two miles from it. But what to say in the radio? How could it be explained? And what would happen thereafter? I looked at the T-37 pattern where four or five T-37's were an their way, some of them on their first solo mission like me. They were all visible in the clear sunlight and they were spaced about 400 yards apart, as they should be. I suddenly realized that one T-37 was a bit slow to get from the taxiway to the runway. He began accelerating and got airborne with almost double spacing from the plane in front of him. I realized that by the time he would get to initial turn, I could be at the beginning of the downwind leg. Just by getting out of my circle at the right time and by giving a little extra rpm until I could fill the "hole" between two aircraft. I thought about it for a few seconds because the time to act was coming up quickly. Eventually I slided into my place halfways down the downwind leg, just as the follower was about to turn to downwind. He was a bit closer than expected. But next time I saw him, he was in my mirrors. I levelled my wings and trimmed the elevators, while hurrying with the downwind procedures. I stayed approximately 300 yards behind the plane ahead of me - as a compromise to help the plane behind me. Then I got ready for the last two legs and the landing, wondering how it would be to land with the seat higher than usual. I just wanted to it down in one piece, perhaps with a bumpy landing. Thats when I recalled something else I had heard on the flightline. "You shouldn't judge your height by the horizon in relation to the window frame, but by sensing the angle of the horizon above my own memory of the horizon when landed." So I intended to do just that, using my peripheral vision, so to speak. The landing was uneventful, just as usually. It worked, the peripheral vision. Taxiing back to the parking area I began wondering what would happen when I told my instructor about the whole thing. I put a comment in the log about the seat latch to be inspected. And began worrying. Student pilots were being washed out of the program regularly. And nobody ever told us why. They were just gone all of a sudden. I was unsure if I had done well or not. And I was certainly not ready to be sent home to Denmark yet. So I decided to not tell the same day, unless I was approached and asked what the hell had happened. No one did. So I kept silent until the next day. And the next and the next. Many days passed until it definitely was too late anyway. I never told it. Later I found out that the tower would have helped me getting to an undisturbed area where I could have adjusted the seat at a safe altitude while flying level. Then tower would have guided me to a landing. I would like to hear your opinion as a seasoned instructor. My first solo turned out to be both instrument flying and some kind of aerobatics, all at a dangerously low altitude. Followed by entering a controlled airspace, only without the control. Would you have washed me out? Or would you just have corrected my mistakes? After the incident I added a solid jump in the seat after adjusting to the correct height. 🙂
I think you did a commendable job! You should have reported it because your handling of the issue (I am well aware of the seat issues in the tweet) would have probably got you a commendation. Well handled in my opinion. So for the rest of the story.....how did your career go?
@@ronrogers My flying career was short. I was young, disappointed and in need of good advice. I left the Danish Airforce by my own decision - without getting hit by my contract for five years service. The condition was that I could not take jobs as a pilot - that would inwoke a contract penalty. So I left and did not look back. I had decent careers as a policeman and later as a journalist. Both jobs are in my eyes defenders of democracy and a stable society. I tried to forget about flying, but did not succeed in that. As a 50 year old journalist I suddenly had a chance to fly once - after a 30 years hiatus. The story is that a couple of danish fighter pilots started a private company with two rather hot italien trainer planes. They wanted to sell aerobatic experiences to bachelor parties and other party-goers. As part of their marketing they asked a journalist to fly with them and report the experience. I was handed the stick in the middle of a dogfight exercise...! I pulled the stick immediately to go up. I felt the tingle in the stick at the edge of stalling until I got over the top and right in behind the opponent to get him in gunsight. Awesome!! That felt really good. All the memories came back to me. Ballet-dancing in a four-ship formation of T-38's, looping around a large cumulus - or landing in a hazy sunset. It's poetry and I miss it. There is nothing like a big engine and a pair of wings. Happy flying, all of you who still have the opportunity. 🙃 By the way: Don't invest in a company like the one I described. It went bankrupt, because the customers got airsick from the aerobatics.
My introduction to spin training was in a Piper Cherokee with an instructor who had never flown the Cherokee. He pulled the nose up stomped the rudder and around it went. He recovered and pulled up so hard I could feel the seat springs through the upholstery as I was squashed into my seat. On his second attempt we spun in the opposite direction. He was impressed that it "spins just as good to the left as it does to the right ... and by the way that spot on the ground that's not spinning will be be the point of impact it we don't recover." I didn't challenge that assertion. After the second high G recovery and "pull through the secondary stall" I was three shades of green. I can't say I'm a fan of old Pipers, spins or pulling Gs. I would never have made it as a military pilot. The greatest respect for you Ron.
Interesting. Thanks, Ron. I heard something similar which supposedly took place in the late '80s/early '90s. However, it was a middle eastern student, a son of a prince or sheik, who had to go into their national Air Force. The goal was to get their GA Private certification, so they could go back and get higher training at home. The flight instructor said he told the student mid-flight that he was going to fail him, so the student pushed the yoke forward and locked his elbows. This resulted in a tussle. Flight school staff corroborated the story. The flight instructor said he never gave bad news while flying ever again.
Ron, I was class leader of my section in class 75-05 at Reese AFB. The training lasted most of 1974, we received our wings on Feb 14, 1975. I was a 2nd Lt. Navigator for the 707th MAS at Charlestown AFB. I was only a Nav on the C141A for about 7 months before I went to pilot school. Ok, to the point. I was in D flight at REE in the T37. One day there was a Full Bird colonel sitting in the back of our briefing room taking notes. Not 2 weeks go buy and we have the General in charge of ATC and every wing commander from every UPT base in the back of our briefing room. We go through the ritual of standing at attention when our instructors enter the room. We are briefed about what we will be doing that day and then some of us are called upon to answer EPQ questions. Of course I was selected to spurt out the spin recovery procedure. After that and a closing statement from our class commander. The General stands up as say's "That is the way to do a briefing" and all of our guests leave. I forget what we called the 2 students riding with each other but on my ride I had an Iranian in the back seat who did not have much time in the T38. I conveyed to him not to touch a thing and we survived the flight. Best year of my life flying the T37 and T38 plus I got to meet and marry the girl of may dreams. All this happened 50 years ago this year.
I was in 73-04 at Webb. We had Iranians in my class. They all ended up washing back a class. We heard a story very similar to the one you shared to us about “not afraid to die”.
Laughlin 70-01. ROTC put me in a Piper Cherokee. Was working full time and full time student, so flights were limited to Sundays. Hardest part was getting an instructor. The one I had flipped a landing and destroyed a plane. Soloed at 6 hours and got private pilot at 35 (must have been a standard). T-41 (Cessna 172) was easy enough. Soloed on 4th flight after learning the Air Force way. T-37 spin recovery earned me an unsatisfactory by recovering inverted prioritizing minimal altitude loss. Instructor grabbed my oxygen hose, squeezed it, and said if I did that again it would be the last breath I took. Had an Iranian student who had moved back 4 times. In the T-38 on a straight in approach, another T-38 was entering initial the pattern. Hit the mic and asked if he had conflicting traffic in sight. He was Saudi Royalty and responded "What's matter Yankee, you 'fraid to die".
I was at Willi class 72-03. I ended up as a t-37 IP. I had Iranians in myUPT class and as students. My rule was you recover or if you can’t I will then we will talk. My experience with Iranians that they were incredible people and very good pilots given the language issues. This takes me back. Thanks brother. DF.
My son, while on vacation, soloed at the same flight school in Florida where some of the 9/11 perps trained. Our residence was then, and still is, right across the street from the WTC. You can imagine how a young guy in NYC would react when his neighborhood was destroyed. He went off to college to become a missionary pilot and gosh was I so proud of him. He quit school and flying, and joined the Marines. His flight shools up here; Teterborough, Linden, and Morristown, were corrupt and would do anything for a buck. Be careful where you train.
@@ronrogers Ron, thanks for the effort you put into showing all sides of aviation. Hope you'll do a video with Juan and share the funny side of flying the 777.
Not flying, but I went to Ankara on business many years ago and on getting a taxi back to the airport was amazed at the high speed the taxi driver drove at, even over blind cross roads (they ignored traffic lights, but these junctions didn't even have those). I remonstrated with the driver that I'd really like to live long enough to take my chances on the 727 Ankara to Istanbul, but he continued his lunatic driving and pointed to some religious artefact hanging from the the rear view mirror. "Allah will watch over us" Very, very scary.
Back in the 70s, we used the French Fouga Magister for initial pilot training. We got introduced to the spin on flight 7 - 8. There we two gates: one, after 8 flights, the other, after 18. The latter one was called “check solo”. By the 18 th flight, over 60% of cadets were screened out. For the lucky ones, the 19th flight was SOLO. This proverbial “Abdul” guy wouldn’t probably let close to the plane. He’d be screened after one chat with the psychologist. Btw, the attrition rate in the IDF flight academy in the 70s - 80s was close to 75%. Out of 1000 candidates showed up on day one, only about 30 -35 would graduate. Not more than 15 - 18 would continue to the OTU (fighter pilots Operational Training Unit with 102nd squadron). Got the piccha?
I was at Vance in UPT Class 73-08. We had 2 Vietnamese students (Ha and Chouk) along with about 4 Iranian studs. Damavandi was practicing straight in approaches in the T-37, landing to the South after completing a training session to Dogface and the training areas to the North. There used to be a shopping center north of Enid that lined up with the T 37 runway and the instructer cautioned him several times that the airport was on the South side of Enid and that his glide path would have him landing in the parking lot. I swear, on a Friday night at the Officer's Club that the instructor told this story about his student and that the reply from Damavandi was "Me no afraid to die! This would have been in the summer of 1972. I was on the wrong side of the 50% of students that succed/fail in earning their wings, but do not regret for a minute failing in my quest.
Vance Air Force Base, 1965. The 'Tweetie Bird' was not the first airplane in primary. The first airplane was the T-41, a Cessna 172 with two seats. Beginning pilots learned to fly in T-41's at Woodring Field, across town from Vance. I began my civilian private pilot work in a Cessna 150 at Woodring. Often times, I would come out for a lesson and see twenty or more T-41's in the pattern. I just knew I would be spending alot of extra time waiting to take off, extending my downwind FIVE MILES to stay in the same pattern with the Air Force guys, and had to work with their portable 'tower' when otherwise Woodring was not a control tower airport. My fears turned out to be unfounded. As soon as my instructor and I taxied out to take off, the 'tower' would clear us for immediate takeoff and made the students go around. When we would re-enter the pattern the 'tower' would approve our short base turn and made all the others make way. I learned to land by getting abeam the numbers and cutting the throttle and not touching it again. The Air Force was more than obliging and my wallet much appreciated it.
My class was a test. Half of us went through the T-41, the other half started out in the T-37. I was in the T-37 only group and they saw no real difference between the two groups. My understanding was that the T-41 were shortly phased out.
I was in 78-06 at Reese. There were Iranians from earlier classes still there when I started in Tweets, and I heard a similar story - IP puts Iranian SP into a spin & says "Recover", nothing, again "Recover", again nothing, 3rd time "Recover", again nothing. IP takes the jet, recovers & heads home. On the way, asks SP, "Why didn't you recover?" SP says something like, "If it is Allah's will that we die, we die". Anyway, it's a good story. Another Iranian story that I know is true concerned the Shah's son, Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi. He & a bunch of other Iranian officers came to Reese very shortly after I graduated. Even though he was only about 17 yrs old when he arrived, he was already an experienced pilot and had some stick time in IIAF F-4s, among other planes. When I returned to Reese 4 yrs later as a T-38 IP, there were still stories floating around about the Prince & his cohorts, like every time he flew, another jet w/2 IPs on board would shadow his jet & orbit the MOA high until he recovered, just in case anything went wrong and he needed a wingman or some instant help. During the week, he was required to live on base in the Q's with the other bachelors, but the USAF comandeered all the adjoining rooms next to his Q room, knocked out the walls and turned the standard tiny Q room into a larger, more spacious suite fit for a Crown Prince. The Iranian government bought a huge house in Lubbock for him to stay in on weekends - it had about 6 bedrooms, 2 kitchens, an in-ground pool, guest house, etc etc. Only used by the Crown Prince & his entourage on weekends. After the fall of Iran, the US gov't took over the house from the Iranians and leased it to married USAF students. They called it the 'Pilot Palace'. I went to 1 or 2 parties there - very impressive.
Interesting and informative. I would say 9 months and 65 hours is typical private pilot training time. I had a Ray scholarship student that could have been done in 4 months except DPE took over a month to schedule. I do have older pilots on the 10 year plan. No matter what I find it very satisfying to watching a person go from clueless to pilot. My thoughts as a civil flight instructor.
Thanks! Nine months sounds much more reasonable, especially with all the DPE issues I have been hearing about. That (DPE) seems to be the biggest road block.
Back in the mid-1970s I worked at a flight school in the north-east as a CFI. The Air Force had a special program where civil CFIs, like me, would train future pilots for the first 25 hours. It was a "pass or fail" program and the pressure on them was enormous. My flight school entered into a contract with the Air Force and several instructors were assigned "student pilots" (not learners). I believe the syllabus was designed to make the pilots fail. It demanded way too much in too short of a time. Before this, I never had a student puke in my airplane, although some naturally became airsick. However, all but two of my Air Force cadets puked during the first few lessons, even during straight and level flight. The pressure to succeed was immense. One day, one of my better students was annoyed because he wasn't learning to land properly. He couldn't understand the "flare" process just before the touchdown. So, I decided to sit in the C-152 with him on the ground for about 45 minutes going over and over the landing process in our heads, just like a computer flight simulator which nobody had at the time. After that, we went into the traffic pattern, and he nailed it. His landings were perfect. To this day, I have wondered if he ever made it as an Air Force pilot. The Viet War was over, and pilots were coming home to a very poor economy and the competition for jobs was immense. True story.
As a civilian pilot with a thousand hrs. Id love to have the chance to fly a T37 and do spins etc. to see if i actually could’ve flown in the military. Of course that will never happen. But one can dream!! Love your videos 👍👍🙂
Around the 8:00 minute mark, I was thinking to myself “Man, this is a long story“ and then cracked up to notice the slogan on the teller’s T-shirt: “But I Digress“!
I was at Vance AFB UPT, Class 70-05. I heard the same story then, too. Seems it was also an Iranian student who simply took his hands off the controls during the spin recovery or some other threatening procedure and said, “If Allah wills that I die, then so it shall be. I will die!” Of course the result was the same, end of UPT for him. We had 4 Iranis, 2 in each section, two of who actually made it through the program. The others washed back several times before being pulled by their government.
ROFLOL check airman at my old airline told a similar story with a "Captain" and thunderstorms . " Abdul which way do you want to go around this storm ? After two more questions and NO response----Abdul says----> Allah will tell me which way to turn ." END OF LINE CHECK ! OMG.
During the early 1970's I started taking flying lessons. I got my private pilot license, instrument, commercial and multi engine ratings all without ever doing a single spin. The FBO that ran the flight school did not want any of its airplanes to be spun, so they were not taught. While I was verbally instructed on spin recovery, I never entered a spin. I eventually progressed to taking the check ride for my CFI rating. Toward the end of the check ride, which I thought was going well, the FAA examiner said, "what would you do if I did this?" and put the Piper Cherokee into a spin. We made two quick turns before I woke up and remembered what to do and thankfully it worked. It kind of shook me up, but I managed to conceal it well enough that I passed the check ride. To this day I still remember the sight of the Hudson River spinning in the windshield...
Interesting. I guess they don't require spin training to get your CFI anymore? I never soloed a student who had not done spins with me. But then I am old school.
Not me, but from a fellow IP. "Recover or we're gonna die". Student: "Allah will save me". IP: "True, but he's not gonna save me, so recover". I will vouch for that one. BC Raindance Tweet FAIP Willie Class 83-03
#true. I was a Navy Liason officer for Saudi flight students and also flew with Kuwaiti, Singapore, French, German, and Spanish students. “Allah will save me” was a well known problem.
I was instructing in America for a large FTO with contracts for ab initio training with several Middle Eastern airlines. It is not unusual for students to have difficulty with the holdoff and round-out,many instructors will be familiar. On one of several remedial lessons, at about fifty feet from the ground on the approach, Ahmed started his usual overcontrolling, and the possibility of a good touchdown was increasingly disappearing, he had reached his limit, and to my surprise, he let go of the controls and raised his hands with the words that ''Allah has control''. As far as he was concerned, whatever happened next was Allah's will, and he would accept it.
Current private time for me is estimated about 4ish months. I fly two to three times a week and 3ish hours a session. There’s some realllly… not natural… students that take forever. It helps that I knew a lot coming into it but you still need to be able to learn yourself. There are a few that are dozen of hours in when it should’ve only taken them 45-55ish tops
You realize your math isn’t adding up? Two to three times a week at three flight hours per session is roughly thirty hours a month! Four months at that pace puts you at 120 hours for your PPL! You should have an instrument rating by then.
Had a similar experience at Mather AFB (navigator school) in the mid 80s where we had middle eastern nav students train with us. I was a SSgt Security Policeman (Law Enforcement), and to arrest one of their Officers for serious misconduct meant expulsion and a flight back home so fast they still had a hangover when they landed. The biggest problem they had was controlling their alcohol intake and keeping their hands off our female Officers and enlisted women. Come to think about it, we did to. But I digress. Embarrassing their King was fatal.
The single spin recovery was a silly AF attempt to make spin recovery idiot proof. I nearly got thrown out for trying to convince the Major that all that thrashing was not required. The Squadron commander would put the tweet into a spin and I would fly it out with less than half forward stick and maybe half opposite rudder. He told me that my technique wouldn’t work all the time, I assured him it would. He threatened to kick me out of training so I did the single spin recovery, bouncing his helmet off the canopy and generally looking like an idiot and he was happy.
Question, what do you mean by 2 years to get a private pilot license? When I did mine a couple years ago it took me 6 months of theory and 2 months of actual flying. I'm not from the US but 2 years sounds shocking.
I was told by a local flight school that many people took 2 years. The way they fly their patterns I can see it. I think this is an extended time judging by the comments.
There's no time limit on getting your license. I soloed on my 16th birthday (you had to be 16 to solo). You have to be 17 to get your private pilot's license so I had to wait a year.
Wow that's interesting. In my country you have to be 17 to even be allowed in ground school and that would require parental permission. And once you finish the theory you have a year to get your 40 hours, the exams and your check ride, otherwise by law you have to start all over again.
Your stories are entertaining, but when you "DIGRESS" into your own memories, you ruin your videos. Please tell the story without continually diving into your own similar stories.
This is Ron's oral history. It is for him and him only to say what he wants, and with whatever amount of digressing required.🙂 Love what you do Captain Rogers. My Great Uncle flew Avro Lancasters in WWII. He trained in the U.S on the Arnold Scheme. He and his crew lost their lives bar one over Germany a month before Wars end in Europe. How I wish those guys and girls from WWII had RUclips in the 70s!!👍👍🇬🇧🙂
Ron, I was amazed to see this video title, because I am the IP who had this experience, and I've told the story for decades now. It was at Columbus AFB, about 1973. Short version: we got into a nice spin and my Iranian student did everything wrong. Just flailed the controls seemingly at random. Naturally, the spin wound up tighter than an eight-day clock. Finally, he let go of the controls, crossed his arms and - staring straight ahead - said those famous words. It was at that point that I took over, of course. Flew the plane back to the field and flunked him on the ride. Which got me into hot water because due to State Dept pressure, it was very difficult to wash out Iranians. Until I told my Squadron commander what had happened. I was forgiven; the student was not. So it is in fact a true story.
Wow and thanks for sharing! I was hoping someone would come forward with more details but straight from the source is the best! One of my favorite IP stories. Like your details even better!
@@ronrogers His actual words were "I am not afraid to die." I love doing that story with an Iranian accent. I later became Chief of Check Section where my duties were to fly all the final washout rides. Telling young men their dream was over was soul-draining. But I also passed some and even soloed one or two on their "99" ride.
Thank you for doing the Check Section job (head of it no less!). I would have found that very difficult.
Actually, I would love to hear the full story. Maybe I could do a more factual update later. So good to hear this directly!
@@ronrogers There isn't a lot more. From day one, I was considered to be a "Senior IP" because I had just turned Captain and had combat time as a FAC. They gave me the table closest to the door - symbolic of it being a poor student's last chance. I got almost nothing but poor students that other IPs couldn't teach. I managed to get a lot of them soloed, even my overly generous share of foreign students, Iranians included. This particular guy only flew with me a few times before he washed out - he was truly incapable of grasping either English or "airplane". Then there was my favorite, a giant man named Isah Badaki, but that story will have to wait.
I want to share a horrifying story with you. And perhaps hear your opinion.
I was a danish student pilot at Webb AFB in 1974 (74-06) and graduated a year later. As many other students I had very little flying experience before getting into the T-37.
I had my first 25-30 flying hours in a Chipmunk in the Danish Air Force before getting sent to Texas and then about 25-30 hours in a Cessna 172 to get a little practice with a second airplane and with the desert surroundings and the american language. At the time I thought I was pretty good at english but I still had to think about every sentence, though.
Speaking in the microphone was easy because what one needs to say is mostly standardized flight speak.
Getting into the T-37 was very exciting, of course. A real jet with two engines, ejection seat and oxygen. Plus the airfield had two long concrete runways and there was lots of traffic in the air.
I felt 100 percent awake and excited all the time. It was wonderful and I was indeed happy.
As I recall, we had to fly a first solo after around 10 flying hours. It was a short and simpel task. All we had to do was to fly one rectangular pattern, use the prescribed radio calls and then land safely and return the airplane to the parking area. That was it. Simple…. right?
I was young and selfconfident. I had around 60 hours of flying experience. What could go wrong?
So, I got into the plane, strapped in and adjusted the seat height. You had to use leg muscles to adjust it. I was unlocked and locked with a latch. Almost as in a car, only up and down.
I did everything as I was taught. I took off at runway 170R because the t-37's always flew from that runway whereas the left runway was used by the T-38's.
As soon as I was airborn I raised gear and flaps, getting ready for the initial turn.
So… 60 degrees bank and a pull at the stick.
That was when the seat latch broke loose. The seat slammed into the floor with a loud bang.
I could see nothing outside, only my right hand on the stick in front of my nose.
In that critical moment I remembered a sentence that one of the instructors said a few days earlier, "If anything goes wrong, always get wings level first".
Behind the stick was the artificial horizon. I looked at it and realized that I was in a shallow dive, perhaps 5 degrees.
Talk about getting awake. I felt a fire in the back of my neck because I knew I had extremely little time to react. Wing level, stick back in that order. I established at climp of 10 degrees and started breathing again.
I climped to about 800 feet before I dared to level off to touch the seat latch and stretch the legs to raise the seat to a normal position. But it turned out that it is very difficult to adjust the seat while flying. It is impossible to do it without moving the sensitive stick.
So I loosened the latch and stretched my legs. Immediately the seat went to the top position, again violently. And now the plane was in a dive.
But I was able to look out the window so I could level off and return to 800 feet. As You can guess the heading was about 220 degrees and the airfield was getting smaller in the mirrors. I was headed for the big hazy desert.
I tried again to adjust the seat, now with the opposite result. The seat at the floor again and a steep climp. Once more and I paused… now at the top position. Leveled off again at 800 feet height.
I knew that I had to say something to the tower, but what…? It felt like a difficult conversation, especially with my language level, which I suddenly understood could be a lot better.
But I didn't want to disappear over the desert. I wanted to keep the airfield in sight. So I decided to circle. Not with a 2g turn (60 degrees bank), but a little less, perhaps 1.5 g's - around 45 degree bank which I never tried before. This would be a greater turn, perhaps even close to the traffic over the airfield. So I decided to make a left turn, 45 degree bank, and then try the seat again.
This would give me a smaller speed difference from the other traffic than a right turn, should I get too close.
The big turn could give me a chance to get the seat right… and perhaps give me some time to figure out what to say in the microphone. Preferably something simple yet adequate.
I climped to 1000 feet on order to get the best view of the airfield as the turn got closer to it and kept trying to adjust the seat.
Suddenly the seat stopped maybe five inches above the position I was used to. I figured it would be possible to land the T-37 with it. So I focused on the landing pattern which I could overview easily from my position about two miles from it.
But what to say in the radio? How could it be explained? And what would happen thereafter?
I looked at the T-37 pattern where four or five T-37's were an their way, some of them on their first solo mission like me. They were all visible in the clear sunlight and they were spaced about 400 yards apart, as they should be.
I suddenly realized that one T-37 was a bit slow to get from the taxiway to the runway. He began accelerating and got airborne with almost double spacing from the plane in front of him. I realized that by the time he would get to initial turn, I could be at the beginning of the downwind leg. Just by getting out of my circle at the right time and by giving a little extra rpm until I could fill the "hole" between two aircraft.
I thought about it for a few seconds because the time to act was coming up quickly.
Eventually I slided into my place halfways down the downwind leg, just as the follower was about to turn to downwind. He was a bit closer than expected. But next time I saw him, he was in my mirrors. I levelled my wings and trimmed the elevators, while hurrying with the downwind procedures. I stayed approximately 300 yards behind the plane ahead of me - as a compromise to help the plane behind me.
Then I got ready for the last two legs and the landing, wondering how it would be to land with the seat higher than usual. I just wanted to it down in one piece, perhaps with a bumpy landing.
Thats when I recalled something else I had heard on the flightline.
"You shouldn't judge your height by the horizon in relation to the window frame, but by sensing the angle of the horizon above my own memory of the horizon when landed."
So I intended to do just that, using my peripheral vision, so to speak.
The landing was uneventful, just as usually. It worked, the peripheral vision.
Taxiing back to the parking area I began wondering what would happen when I told my instructor about the whole thing.
I put a comment in the log about the seat latch to be inspected. And began worrying.
Student pilots were being washed out of the program regularly. And nobody ever told us why. They were just gone all of a sudden.
I was unsure if I had done well or not. And I was certainly not ready to be sent home to Denmark yet. So I decided to not tell the same day, unless I was approached and asked what the hell had happened.
No one did. So I kept silent until the next day. And the next and the next.
Many days passed until it definitely was too late anyway. I never told it.
Later I found out that the tower would have helped me getting to an undisturbed area where I could have adjusted the seat at a safe altitude while flying level. Then tower would have guided me to a landing.
I would like to hear your opinion as a seasoned instructor.
My first solo turned out to be both instrument flying and some kind of aerobatics, all at a dangerously low altitude. Followed by entering a controlled airspace, only without the control. Would you have washed me out? Or would you just have corrected my mistakes?
After the incident I added a solid jump in the seat after adjusting to the correct height. 🙂
I think you did a commendable job! You should have reported it because your handling of the issue (I am well aware of the seat issues in the tweet) would have probably got you a commendation. Well handled in my opinion.
So for the rest of the story.....how did your career go?
@@ronrogers My flying career was short. I was young, disappointed and in need of good advice. I left the Danish Airforce by my own decision - without getting hit by my contract for five years service. The condition was that I could not take jobs as a pilot - that would inwoke a contract penalty. So I left and did not look back. I had decent careers as a policeman and later as a journalist. Both jobs are in my eyes defenders of democracy and a stable society. I tried to forget about flying, but did not succeed in that. As a 50 year old journalist I suddenly had a chance to fly once - after a 30 years hiatus. The story is that a couple of danish fighter pilots started a private company with two rather hot italien trainer planes. They wanted to sell aerobatic experiences to bachelor parties and other party-goers. As part of their marketing they asked a journalist to fly with them and report the experience. I was handed the stick in the middle of a dogfight exercise...! I pulled the stick immediately to go up. I felt the tingle in the stick at the edge of stalling until I got over the top and right in behind the opponent to get him in gunsight. Awesome!! That felt really good. All the memories came back to me. Ballet-dancing in a four-ship formation of T-38's, looping around a large cumulus - or landing in a hazy sunset. It's poetry and I miss it. There is nothing like a big engine and a pair of wings. Happy flying, all of you who still have the opportunity. 🙃 By the way: Don't invest in a company like the one I described. It went bankrupt, because the customers got airsick from the aerobatics.
My introduction to spin training was in a Piper Cherokee with an instructor who had never flown the Cherokee. He pulled the nose up stomped the rudder and around it went. He recovered and pulled up so hard I could feel the seat springs through the upholstery as I was squashed into my seat. On his second attempt we spun in the opposite direction. He was impressed that it "spins just as good to the left as it does to the right ... and by the way that spot on the ground that's not spinning will be be the point of impact it we don't recover." I didn't challenge that assertion. After the second high G recovery and "pull through the secondary stall" I was three shades of green. I can't say I'm a fan of old Pipers, spins or pulling Gs. I would never have made it as a military pilot. The greatest respect for you Ron.
Interesting. Thanks, Ron.
I heard something similar which supposedly took place in the late '80s/early '90s. However, it was a middle eastern student, a son of a prince or sheik, who had to go into their national Air Force. The goal was to get their GA Private certification, so they could go back and get higher training at home. The flight instructor said he told the student mid-flight that he was going to fail him, so the student pushed the yoke forward and locked his elbows. This resulted in a tussle. Flight school staff corroborated the story. The flight instructor said he never gave bad news while flying ever again.
Ron, I was class leader of my section in class 75-05 at Reese AFB. The training lasted most of 1974, we received our wings on Feb 14, 1975. I was a 2nd Lt. Navigator for the 707th MAS at Charlestown AFB. I was only a Nav on the C141A for about 7 months before I went to pilot school. Ok, to the point. I was in D flight at REE in the T37. One day there was a Full Bird colonel sitting in the back of our briefing room taking notes. Not 2 weeks go buy and we have the General in charge of ATC and every wing commander from every UPT base in the back of our briefing room. We go through the ritual of standing at attention when our instructors enter the room. We are briefed about what we will be doing that day and then some of us are called upon to answer EPQ questions. Of course I was selected to spurt out the spin recovery procedure. After that and a closing statement from our class commander. The General stands up as say's "That is the way to do a briefing" and all of our guests leave. I forget what we called the 2 students riding with each other but on my ride I had an Iranian in the back seat who did not have much time in the T38. I conveyed to him not to touch a thing and we survived the flight. Best year of my life flying the T37 and T38 plus I got to meet and marry the girl of may dreams. All this happened 50 years ago this year.
Wow! Great story, thanks for sharing!
I was in 73-04 at Webb. We had Iranians in my class. They all ended up washing back a class. We heard a story very similar to the one you shared to us about “not afraid to die”.
They washed out and became cashiers at the 7-11.
Laughlin 70-01. ROTC put me in a Piper Cherokee. Was working full time and full time student, so flights were limited to Sundays. Hardest part was getting an instructor. The one I had flipped a landing and destroyed a plane. Soloed at 6 hours and got private pilot at 35 (must have been a standard). T-41 (Cessna 172) was easy enough. Soloed on 4th flight after learning the Air Force way. T-37 spin recovery earned me an unsatisfactory by recovering inverted prioritizing minimal altitude loss. Instructor grabbed my oxygen hose, squeezed it, and said if I did that again it would be the last breath I took. Had an Iranian student who had moved back 4 times. In the T-38 on a straight in approach, another T-38 was entering initial the pattern. Hit the mic and asked if he had conflicting traffic in sight. He was Saudi Royalty and responded "What's matter Yankee, you 'fraid to die".
What's so bad about recovering inverted? Just because it's not the standard way?
I was at Willi class 72-03. I ended up as a t-37 IP. I had Iranians in myUPT class and as students. My rule was you recover or if you can’t I will then we will talk. My experience with Iranians that they were incredible people and very good pilots given the language issues. This takes me back. Thanks brother. DF.
My son, while on vacation, soloed at the same flight school in Florida where some of the 9/11 perps trained.
Our residence was then, and still is, right across the street from the WTC. You can imagine how a young guy in NYC would react when his neighborhood was destroyed.
He went off to college to become a missionary pilot and gosh was I so proud of him. He quit school and flying, and joined the Marines.
His flight shools up here; Teterborough, Linden, and Morristown, were corrupt and would do anything for a buck.
Be careful where you train.
Absolutely correct!
@@ronrogers Ron, thanks for the effort you put into showing all sides of aviation. Hope you'll do a video with Juan and share the funny side of flying the 777.
Not flying, but I went to Ankara on business many years ago and on getting a taxi back to the airport was amazed at the high speed the taxi driver drove at, even over blind cross roads (they ignored traffic lights, but these junctions didn't even have those). I remonstrated with the driver that I'd really like to live long enough to take my chances on the 727 Ankara to Istanbul, but he continued his lunatic driving and pointed to some religious artefact hanging from the the rear view mirror.
"Allah will watch over us"
Very, very scary.
Back in the 70s, we used the French Fouga Magister for initial pilot training. We got introduced to the spin on flight 7 - 8. There we two gates: one, after 8 flights, the other, after 18. The latter one was called “check solo”. By the 18 th flight, over 60% of cadets were screened out. For the lucky ones, the 19th flight was SOLO. This proverbial “Abdul” guy wouldn’t probably let close to the plane. He’d be screened after one chat with the psychologist. Btw, the attrition rate in the IDF flight academy in the 70s - 80s was close to 75%. Out of 1000 candidates showed up on day one, only about 30 -35 would graduate. Not more than 15 - 18 would continue to the OTU (fighter pilots Operational Training Unit with 102nd squadron).
Got the piccha?
Heard the same story when I was going through Navy flight training in the 70`s.
I was at Vance in UPT Class 73-08. We had 2 Vietnamese students (Ha and Chouk) along with about 4 Iranian studs. Damavandi was practicing straight in approaches in the T-37, landing to the South after completing a training session to Dogface and the training areas to the North. There used to be a shopping center north of Enid that lined up with the T 37 runway and the instructer cautioned him several times that the airport was on the South side of Enid and that his glide path would have him landing in the parking lot. I swear, on a Friday night at the Officer's Club that the instructor told this story about his student and that the reply from Damavandi was "Me no afraid to die! This would have been in the summer of 1972. I was on the wrong side of the 50% of students that succed/fail in earning their wings, but do not regret for a minute failing in my quest.
Greetings, Brother. Vance 73-07.
Vance Air Force Base, 1965. The 'Tweetie Bird' was not the first airplane in primary. The first airplane was the T-41, a Cessna 172 with two seats. Beginning pilots learned to fly in T-41's at Woodring Field, across town from Vance. I began my civilian private pilot work in a Cessna 150 at Woodring. Often times, I would come out for a lesson and see twenty or more T-41's in the pattern. I just knew I would be spending alot of extra time waiting to take off, extending my downwind FIVE MILES to stay in the same pattern with the Air Force guys, and had to work with their portable 'tower' when otherwise Woodring was not a control tower airport. My fears turned out to be unfounded. As soon as my instructor and I taxied out to take off, the 'tower' would clear us for immediate takeoff and made the students go around. When we would re-enter the pattern the 'tower' would approve our short base turn and made all the others make way. I learned to land by getting abeam the numbers and cutting the throttle and not touching it again. The Air Force was more than obliging and my wallet much appreciated it.
My class was a test. Half of us went through the T-41, the other half started out in the T-37. I was in the T-37 only group and they saw no real difference between the two groups. My understanding was that the T-41 were shortly phased out.
I was in 78-06 at Reese. There were Iranians from earlier classes still there when I started in Tweets, and I heard a similar story - IP puts Iranian SP into a spin & says "Recover", nothing, again "Recover", again nothing, 3rd time "Recover", again nothing. IP takes the jet, recovers & heads home. On the way, asks SP, "Why didn't you recover?" SP says something like, "If it is Allah's will that we die, we die". Anyway, it's a good story.
Another Iranian story that I know is true concerned the Shah's son, Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi. He & a bunch of other Iranian officers came to Reese very shortly after I graduated. Even though he was only about 17 yrs old when he arrived, he was already an experienced pilot and had some stick time in IIAF F-4s, among other planes. When I returned to Reese 4 yrs later as a T-38 IP, there were still stories floating around about the Prince & his cohorts, like every time he flew, another jet w/2 IPs on board would shadow his jet & orbit the MOA high until he recovered, just in case anything went wrong and he needed a wingman or some instant help. During the week, he was required to live on base in the Q's with the other bachelors, but the USAF comandeered all the adjoining rooms next to his Q room, knocked out the walls and turned the standard tiny Q room into a larger, more spacious suite fit for a Crown Prince. The Iranian government bought a huge house in Lubbock for him to stay in on weekends - it had about 6 bedrooms, 2 kitchens, an in-ground pool, guest house, etc etc. Only used by the Crown Prince & his entourage on weekends. After the fall of Iran, the US gov't took over the house from the Iranians and leased it to married USAF students. They called it the 'Pilot Palace'. I went to 1 or 2 parties there - very impressive.
Interesting and informative. I would say 9 months and 65 hours is typical private pilot training time. I had a Ray scholarship student that could have been done in 4 months except DPE took over a month to schedule. I do have older pilots on the 10 year plan. No matter what I find it very satisfying to watching a person go from clueless to pilot. My thoughts as a civil flight instructor.
Thanks! Nine months sounds much more reasonable, especially with all the DPE issues I have been hearing about. That (DPE) seems to be the biggest road block.
Back in the mid-1970s I worked at a flight school in the north-east as a CFI. The Air Force had a special program where civil CFIs, like me, would train future pilots for the first 25 hours. It was a "pass or fail" program and the pressure on them was enormous. My flight school entered into a contract with the Air Force and several instructors were assigned "student pilots" (not learners). I believe the syllabus was designed to make the pilots fail. It demanded way too much in too short of a time.
Before this, I never had a student puke in my airplane, although some naturally became airsick. However, all but two of my Air Force cadets puked during the first few lessons, even during straight and level flight. The pressure to succeed was immense. One day, one of my better students was annoyed because he wasn't learning to land properly. He couldn't understand the "flare" process just before the touchdown. So, I decided to sit in the C-152 with him on the ground for about 45 minutes going over and over the landing process in our heads, just like a computer flight simulator which nobody had at the time. After that, we went into the traffic pattern, and he nailed it. His landings were perfect. To this day, I have wondered if he ever made it as an Air Force pilot. The Viet War was over, and pilots were coming home to a very poor economy and the competition for jobs was immense. True story.
I once watched a t37 coming out of Vance Bank a little past 90° to the right almost went inverted then leveled off and recovered
I’ve heard very similar stories about the Saudi pilots in Pensacola.
@@JeannetteB. cultural common denominator.
As a civilian pilot with a thousand hrs. Id love to have the chance to fly a T37 and do spins etc. to see if i actually could’ve flown in the military. Of course that will never happen. But one can dream!! Love your videos 👍👍🙂
Thanks!
Around the 8:00 minute mark, I was thinking to myself “Man, this is a long story“ and then cracked up to notice the slogan on the teller’s T-shirt: “But I Digress“!
I was at Vance AFB UPT, Class 70-05. I heard the same story then, too. Seems it was also an Iranian student who simply took his hands off the controls during the spin recovery or some other threatening procedure and said, “If Allah wills that I die, then so it shall be. I will die!” Of course the result was the same, end of UPT for him. We had 4 Iranis, 2 in each section, two of who actually made it through the program. The others washed back several times before being pulled by their government.
Absolutely great comments on this one! You're building a community here.
Yes and I am really enjoying that part of this whole adventure!
ROFLOL check airman at my old airline told a similar story with a "Captain" and thunderstorms . " Abdul which way do you want to go around this storm ? After two more questions and NO response----Abdul says----> Allah will tell me which way to turn ." END OF LINE CHECK ! OMG.
During the early 1970's I started taking flying lessons. I got my private pilot license, instrument, commercial and multi engine ratings all without ever doing a single spin. The FBO that ran the flight school did not want any of its airplanes to be spun, so they were not taught. While I was verbally instructed on spin recovery, I never entered a spin. I eventually progressed to taking the check ride for my CFI rating. Toward the end of the check ride, which I thought was going well, the FAA examiner said, "what would you do if I did this?" and put the Piper Cherokee into a spin. We made two quick turns before I woke up and remembered what to do and thankfully it worked. It kind of shook me up, but I managed to conceal it well enough that I passed the check ride. To this day I still remember the sight of the Hudson River spinning in the windshield...
Interesting. I guess they don't require spin training to get your CFI anymore?
I never soloed a student who had not done spins with me. But then I am old school.
@@ronrogers Ron, This was back in1974 at a now defunct FBO/ flight school I would hope things are different today.
Not me, but from a fellow IP. "Recover or we're gonna die". Student: "Allah will save me". IP: "True, but he's not gonna save me, so recover". I will vouch for that one.
BC
Raindance Tweet FAIP
Willie Class 83-03
#true. I was a Navy Liason officer for Saudi flight students and also flew with Kuwaiti, Singapore, French, German, and Spanish students. “Allah will save me” was a well known problem.
I was instructing in America for a large FTO with contracts for ab initio training with several Middle Eastern airlines. It is not unusual for students to have difficulty with the holdoff and round-out,many instructors will be familiar. On one of several remedial lessons, at about fifty feet from the ground on the approach, Ahmed started his usual overcontrolling, and the possibility of a good touchdown was increasingly disappearing, he had reached his limit, and to my surprise, he let go of the controls and raised his hands with the words that ''Allah has control''. As far as he was concerned, whatever happened next was Allah's will, and he would accept it.
Wow!
It’s consistent with fatalism that is common in the Middle East.
Current private time for me is estimated about 4ish months. I fly two to three times a week and 3ish hours a session. There’s some realllly… not natural… students that take forever. It helps that I knew a lot coming into it but you still need to be able to learn yourself. There are a few that are dozen of hours in when it should’ve only taken them 45-55ish tops
You realize your math isn’t adding up? Two to three times a week at three flight hours per session is roughly thirty hours a month! Four months at that pace puts you at 120 hours for your PPL! You should have an instrument rating by then.
Had a similar experience at Mather AFB (navigator school) in the mid 80s where we had middle eastern nav students train with us. I was a SSgt Security Policeman (Law Enforcement), and to arrest one of their Officers for serious misconduct meant expulsion and a flight back home so fast they still had a hangover when they landed. The biggest problem they had was controlling their alcohol intake and keeping their hands off our female Officers and enlisted women. Come to think about it, we did to. But I digress. Embarrassing their King was fatal.
C flight at Vance still wears that patch on Fridays!
Totally credible if you have lived and worked in these countries
Based on our relative ages you could have been my IP if I was accepted into UPT back in 1977
Not familiar with DPE, please enlighten me,Thanks for all you do.
Designated Pilot Examiner, a stand in for the FAA examiner with the authority to issue licenses.
The single spin recovery was a silly AF attempt to make spin recovery idiot proof. I nearly got thrown out for trying to convince the Major that all that thrashing was not required. The Squadron commander would put the tweet into a spin and I would fly it out with less than half forward stick and maybe half opposite rudder. He told me that my technique wouldn’t work all the time, I assured him it would. He threatened to kick me out of training so I did the single spin recovery, bouncing his helmet off the canopy and generally looking like an idiot and he was happy.
Question, what do you mean by 2 years to get a private pilot license? When I did mine a couple years ago it took me 6 months of theory and 2 months of actual flying. I'm not from the US but 2 years sounds shocking.
I was told by a local flight school that many people took 2 years. The way they fly their patterns I can see it. I think this is an extended time judging by the comments.
There's no time limit on getting your license. I soloed on my 16th birthday (you had to be 16 to solo). You have to be 17 to get your private pilot's license so I had to wait a year.
Wow that's interesting. In my country you have to be 17 to even be allowed in ground school and that would require parental permission. And once you finish the theory you have a year to get your 40 hours, the exams and your check ride, otherwise by law you have to start all over again.
Your stories are entertaining, but when you "DIGRESS" into your own memories, you ruin your videos. Please tell the story without continually diving into your own similar stories.
Brother, you’re in the minority here. Let the rest of us enjoy as many stories as can be fit in one video!
I am here for the digressions, speak for yourself.
This is Ron's oral history. It is for him and him only to say what he wants, and with whatever amount of digressing required.🙂 Love what you do Captain Rogers. My Great Uncle flew Avro Lancasters in WWII. He trained in the U.S on the Arnold Scheme. He and his crew lost their lives bar one over Germany a month before Wars end in Europe. How I wish those guys and girls from WWII had RUclips in the 70s!!👍👍🇬🇧🙂
Thanks everyone for the great and supportive feedback!
BLASPHEMY!! Ron, digress to your heart’s content.