"You will not find Peace until you have removed the nails from the hands of God's Son, and taken the last thorn from His forehead. The Love of God surrounds His Son whom the god of crucifixion condems. Teach not that I died in vain. Teach rather that I did not die by demonstrating that I live in you." ~ A Course in Miracles ♥️
"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned-every one-to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." --Isaiah 53:4-6
@@erykpatrykchudy5675 that’s the packaged answer, but it doesn’t hold up to exegesis. AND there are rabbinical sources who agree it IS talking about Messiah, not the nation, In this verse (there are verses in the previous chapters which talk of Israel as the Servant. That is not in contention). The Nation gets punished for its sins. This is talking about a sinless Servant, who bore sins, just like the High Priestly Role which some say Messiah ben Joseph will fulfill. This servant is killed (Israel as a nation or people never died, and will never die). When taken with Daniel’s prophecies that Messiah will be cut off, and that happening during the era of the Second Temple, the ONLY candidate for this is Yeshua. Jesus.
@@John-dw6ru Who are you to question Paul? This was a man who constantly sacrificed and suffered greatly in order to spread the Gospel of God. And his apostleship was confirmed by the twelve. Jesus said we can know them by their fruit. Those who invent lies do so for shameful gain. Muhammad took wives, lands, and slaves; Joseph Smith, likewise, took wives, money, and power for himself. What did Paul take? Paul took lashes across his back. Paul took homelessness, persecution, and distress. Paul took it upon himself to be poured out as a drink offering time and time again for the sake of Christ. And Paul was beloved by the early church, and his life testimony is above and beyond all reproach. Yet because the scriptures penned by Paul are offensive to your 21st century, sin-dulled sensibilities, you have the right to read his epistles with "a grain of salt"? I would encourage you to repent and believe the Gospel. To reject historical, biblical orthodoxy is to play fast and loose with your very soul.
@@John-dw6ru To be completely honest, I couldn't care less about what works for me. If I did, I might very well reject Paul's teachings and give in to my sin. No, I care about what is objectively true. And objectively speaking, Paul's apostleship can stand up to the toughest scrutiny. It is not unknown to us what the Apostles taught, which they sealed with their own blood. Nor is it a mystery what the early Christian church believed. It would serve you well to stop picking and choosing what suits you, and to humble yourself before God and repent of your sins, trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, and believing in your heart that God raised Him bodily from the dead. Jesus Christ lived the perfect life that we, as sinners, could not live. And being without sin, He died a sinners death - the very death that we ourselves owe. And God completely validated all that Jesus Christ did and accomplished when He raised Him from the dead. The power of sin and death has been dealt a mortal blow. And all those who are in Christ Jesus are counted as righteous, and are guaranteed victory over sin and death. Jesus Christ will one day return, and He will judge the entire world, taking vengeance on the wicked, and whosoever loves falsehood. Repent, and believe the Gospel.
This man is a true visionary, a mystic, I'd even say. I had a personal experience during meditation (on Good Friday, no less!) that revealed these same sentiments to me. Ever since then, I've lived based on those revelations and my life has become richer, fuller, and more filled with love than it ever had with the "Remember, you're a sinner!" mentality I'd been taught growing up in the Episcopal church. Great to see that others, especially a man of the church, have realized this, too. Now I don't feel so alone. Wake up, everyone!
I disagree, since meditation is simply one traveling into their own thoughts/subconscious, and I don't see anything wrong with divination, either, but to each their own.
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus, WHOM GOD PUT FORWARD AS A PROPITIATION BY HIS BLOOD, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." --Romans 3:23-26
This is the only way I can believe in Jesus. Bishop Spong has done a tremendous service to the church by his service. I arrived at this point of view by myself and was in so much doubt that I was right that to hear another speak the same thoughts made me weep. Christianity now is both believable and desirable Thank you for sharing
+hermenutic This is not Christianity, it is an utterly false "gospel" that denies the truths of both the fallen, sinful state of man, and the perfect being and atoning work of Jesus Christ our Savior. If you believe what Spong here says, it is not Jesus that you believe in, but lies from the evil one. "For even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". Please find a good church with a Bible-believing pastor and teachers from whom you can learn the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has the power to save your soul. "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:2 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," - Ephesians 2:4-6 "And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,'" - Revelation 5:9
***** It seems to me that the Jewish religion did away with human sacrifice. I think it is unreasonable to think that Christianity re-instituted the idea of human sacrifice. If the death of Christ was not a human sacrifice I see no reason to disqualify him from being redeemer and savior. It was he himself who placed the emphasis on his teaching of the gospel of the kingdom as a means of entering into the kingdom. Yes Christ lived, taught and died and was raised up. But in the tradition he came from human sacrifice was never anything they did. Human sacrifice is a non-Jewish, non-Christian practice.
Well the Christian church presents Jesus as a human sacrifice by means of it's soteriology and doctrine of atonement/ propitiation and wrath doctrines it produces to make believers of people. Yes I would agree God did not imagine of human sacrifice as part of the gospel message, but the Christian church has made it to be that way. Jesus is said to be human and it is said his death was a sacrifice. It really does not take mental gymnastics to recognize that means human sacrifice It is a bloody doctrine of revenge and savage indignation. The Reformer Martin Luther explains the sacrifice of Christ in the following words. "Our most merciful Father…sent his only Son into the world and laid upon him…the sins of all men saying: Be thou Peter that denier; Paul that persecutor, blasphemer and cruel oppressor; David that adulterer; that sinner which did eat the apple in Paradise; that thief which hanged upon the cross; and briefly be thou the person which hath committed the sins of all men; see therefore that thou pay and satisfy for them. Here now comes the law and saith: I find him a sinner…therefore let him die upon the cross. And so he setteth upon him and killeth him. By this means the whole world is purged and cleansed from all sins.” bible.org/illustration/christ-our-substituteDoes this sound like a human sacrifice or does it not sound like a human sacrifice? I'd say it sounds like a human sacrifice. So that is what I had in mind.
Well I did not mean to do that but to a rational observer with millennia of Christian doctrine explaining the death as a propitiation designed to avert the anger and wrath of God does appear to be a sacrifice and Jesus was a human. The gnostic Christians believe otherwise, that Jesus was not a human. One thing is certain about Jesus. He did die and his words are spirit and life and those who receive them will never die. But as for this full of wrath hell fire propitiation business not being a human sacrifice I just do not see why it cannot be called what it is portrayed as by the Christian Church. Even in Catholic circles the mass is called a 'sacrifice'. You can hardly get any more Christian than the RC Church. Personally I do not regard his death as a sacrifice in the theological sense, but as a murder. Like you and me will meet out fate , he died like a human at the hands of evil men. Jesus was spit out into existence as a human just like us where he was murdered. It is the Christian church which regards his death as a sacrifice and has developed theology to demonstrate that and that is why I spoke like that. I regard Jesus' words as spirit and life and a means of transformation which is how the apostle Paul regarded information about Christ.So that is the reason I feel that way. I do not see any cheapening of the Christ experience by simply saying what it is. It is a sacrifice in the way it is portrayed by Christian doctrine and in Christian doctrine, much of it anyhow, Jesus is considered to be completely human so that he could empathize with us and bear our sorrows and afflictions and understand our feelings as humans. To say his death was not a human sacrifice seems to me to disparage his entire purpose in coming if we look at it in that context. He joined himself with humanity by means of the incarnation and by his teaching raised us all to life as sons and daughters in the family of God. Where I disagree with the churches idea of sacrifice propitiation etc is that I do not believe Jesus died to satisfy the claims of any written religious code of behavior on our behalf. In fact he said he came to give abundant life. I hope that explains my thought. I wish to repeat I did not want to or mean to disparage the work of Christ whom I admire and to whose teaching I am committed to seek understanding with greater and greater clarity. Jesus has promised each of us the Holy Spirit and taught specifically that with the Spirit there is no need for any man to teach you, because with the Spirit, God is your personal teacher.Most Christians will rebel at such an idea. But Jesus was a rebel and he did not like religion one bit. .
"There is no atonement in the Fourth Gospel . . . " "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"" John 1:29 "There is no wallowing in the sinfulness of humanity . . ." "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."" John 8:34 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains." John 9:41 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." John 15:22 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment." John 16:8 "There's no portrayal of Jesus as the divine rescuer who comes to save the sinner . . ." “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:16-17 I don't think he's really read the Fourth Gospel. He's just read it through his specially-colored lenses.
Yes. Saying what he wants to believe. And those who believe him want an excuse to live their own way and not God’s. A perfect example of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Jesus spoke about love and forgiveness. And only through him is it possible
@@kimg04 totally agree. Frankly speaking, this heresy tends to seem more dangerous than many sects today, cuz they are not even parts of Christianity. This man and his teaching claim to be real Christian teaching and the sole right statement. Jesus taught us about them. So the Holy Spirit spoke to us this way: “Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed 35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:34-35)
If Jesus died for your sins then he would still be dead as that is the price. No one can do that for you. YOU must crucify your own carnal flesh so your new regenerated man can arise. Hebrews 5:7, Psalm 18, 41, 91 Refutes Christianity lie of Jesus' death. Thats the point of PASSOVER. And the lamb of God is his holy spirit not a man named Jesus. Isaiah 40:3. Unfortunately the truth was corrupted over the centuries. You must offer your life as a living sacrifice for others as Jesus did. He to had to be born from above. Romans 1:3-4. He didnt become a son until his miracle NEW BIRTH not physical birth.
@@jdaze1 So He didn't become the Son of God until His "miracle new birth"? I take it you mean His baptism? Well, when Jesus was 12 years old - many years before His baptism - He was teaching in the temple, and I believe He said that He was "about His Father's business". So He called God His Father, even at 12. And it was not common for Jews in those days to refer to God as their Father. In fact, it was so unheard of that His own mother had no clue what He was talking about. So I think that pretty much sinks the adoptionism heresy that you espouse.
John Shelby Spong's message cannot be handled by evangelical conservative bible-quoting fundamentalists who believe they have acquired the entire Truth about God. But only by those who are open to be challenged by the Mystery we all call God.
Jesus to people like John MacAurthur, “John, I literally never said to hate, discriminate, subjugate, or belittle anybody in my name. I came into the world to open my arms to it and you wanted to make it an exclusive club for white people.”
@@PBJ5519 I live the way I want by making sure I care about everybody's well being. You don't need a god for that, unless by "god" you mean higher idea of self. What would you prefer: I dislike John Shelby Spong? Many Christian fundummies sure do.
My whole thinking on Christianity was confirmed by this courageous man who dared to voices what millions think but dare not voice within a brainwashed church. He brings people closer to the real God rather than the one we've been sold.
@10:00 "There's no portrayal of Jesus as the divine rescuer who comes to save the sinner". John 10: 14-15 "I am the Good Shepherd... and I lay down my life for the sheep". John 4:22 "... salvation is from the Jews." John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 1:29 "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" Spong is a false teacher who does not even know the gospel he claims to have studied.
Exactly! This is when we must be aware! They are against God. This is the arrogance the Bible speaks of. If you have kids, you are a sinner. No matter if you do everything else right. He clearly says we all must bow. I pray that day is soon! I've been sucked in, and I'm doing everything in my power through the Savior to wake up the world. If you didn't believe, you wouldn't waste your time on lies🤔🤔🤔🤔
If Jesus paid the debt for our sins then he would still be dead. Thats the price for my sins. Psalm 146:3. No one died for your sins. Hebrews 5:7, psalm 18, 41, 91.
Mr. Spong says at 22:04- "Jesus did not die for your sins; what a strange and terrible idea that is. It makes God an ogre, who would demand the death of the son. That makes God the ultimate child abuser. It turns Jesus into being a masochistic sufferer. It turns you and me into being guilt-laden people because we become responsible for the death of Jesus...You and I were not born in sin; we were born incomplete. We do not need to be rescued from sin, we need to be empowered to become all that we are." Everyone needs to run away from this heretic as fast as you can. Read your Bibles and you will see his lies for what they are. Christ DID in fact die for your sins and you are, myself included, born in sin/with a sinful nature. He says John's Gospels does not speak of these things. Please just read John chapter 3. For example "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."--John 3:36. Please, again, ready your Bible and understand that God is Holy and Christ is our mediator between His Righteous Wrath and our sin. Do not die in your sin (law breaking)! Come to Christ! Do not listen to this false preacher!
I was already of the opinion that there's not much good that can said about God, but I like going to church, as funny as that sounds. Going to a church like this sounds doable.
Here is the rub...those detractors here are Biblical literalist and people like me who agree w Spong see the Bible as an inspired yet fallible set of writings best understood in the context of the political, cultural and geographic setting in which those books are written. I once believed as they, that Spong was dangerous. However, after coming to my moral end my believes about Jesus and the Bible had to be set because my conservative religion never worked. Magic Jesus never materialized. However, the God Spong speaks about I now comprehend and worship has brought me hope, peace, and serenity. I’m done with fear, shame, and manipulation.
@@shanemontgomery1358 - Myself and many others do take the Bible literally, but *literally* in the sense of we take the Bible for what it means when it is both literal in actual historical events AND when it is literally metaphorical/poetic. You're correct to run from the extreme "literalist" interpretation that seems to take everything at surface level with no literary depth, but you're also incorrect to fall off on the other side to this extreme solely "allegorical/didactic" approach to Scripture. It's an interpretative balance we must strive for if we want to garner the entire Truth of God's Word. You then say that Scripture is "inspired yet fallible." You'll have to redefine inspiration if you believe there's no logical incoherence here. By definition, theologically speaking, when we say the Scriptures are inspired we mean this *necessarily* entails they are then infallible. The Scriptures are given and authored by God, therefore it is inspired AND infallible. It never fails in its truth. I also agree we should understand the Scriptures in its "political, cultural and geographic setting" and context, but this doesn't take away from Scripture's infallibility. This simply shows the context in which God gave His Scriptures and helps us to understand His infallible Truth. "However, after coming to my moral end my believes about Jesus and the Bible had to be set because my conservative religion never worked. Magic Jesus never materialized. However, the God Spong speaks about I now comprehend and worship has brought me hope, peace, and serenity. I’m done with fear, shame, and manipulation."--Shane, with all due respect, this statement simply reveals you need the Gospel (i.e. Christ dying for your sins and setting you free from the power of sin). I'm sure there is hurt, disappointment and many other painful things you've experienced in your religious past, but this is ultimately irrelevant. I agree conservative religion in itself won't save you. It's not about conservatism/liberalism or any other 'ism.' It's about have you bowed the knee to the Lord of Glory, the one Who died for your sins. If you would look to the Savior crucified for your sins and repent of them with a sincere and contrite heart, and believe Christ resurrected from the dead, you shall be saved (i.e. saved from the Wrath of God). Spong's gospel won't save you--he is anathema (e.g. Galatians 1:7--"If we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed."). Spong's gospel does not give you the worship, *peace,* and serenity with God you believe you've found (Romans 5:1--"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have *peace* with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."--emphasis mine). There is only peace with a Holy, Holy, Holy God through the sin-bearing crucified savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.There is no hope in anything contrary to this you have found. The Love of the Lord is extended to you, turn back to Him, or the Wrath of God abides on you. *Please, read these verses about Christ dying for the sins of men* (All ESV) - 1 Peter 2:24--"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." - Isaiah 53:4-6, 10--"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned-every one-to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all...Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt." - 2 Corinthians 5:21--"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - Galatians 3:10-13--"For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.'" - John 1:29--"The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'" - 1 John 2:1-2--"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the *propitiation for our sins,* and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." (emphasis mine)
1 Peter 3:18Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit
May GOD FORGIVE YOU even though you know exactly what you are doing. All I can say to you John that having encountered God in my Parish Chruch and later on a mountain stream and thence to encounter Christ on the peak of that mountain, all I can say to you is that the ordination of women was and is against God's will and that If you present a fallen person to Christ [ no therapies] Jesus will meet and heal them if they desire healing - As a mortal and a sinner I know that Christ both lives, saves and heals.
God was born a man in the Son, Christ Jesus; in Him the glory of God was seen in human flesh. By the power of His eternal spirit Jesus Christ atoned for our sins on the cross of Golgatha and overcame sin, death and condemnation. He rose from the dead! If you receive Jesus Christ in faith as your Savior and Lord and follow Him, you'll be saved into eternal life with God - whoever you are.
Johanna040713 This is poetry and epodich, mystical speech for obtaining Christ consciousness. To integrate and connect with Divine Source, the forward moving Creator. It is an archetype that transcends time and all locality. Jesus said that we will do as he did, and there were those that preceded him that did before him. We are all the Christ, untapped, connected to the Wonder of Existence, which we call G-d, that of which cannot be named. Christians worship Ba'al. They were tricked into the worship of Ba'al. They sold their Souls to the Devil, the LORD they worship today.
I’m sorry but that meme sounds more and more like that “Offer you can’t refuse”: “God the Father loves you and your eternal soul is precious to him. Be a shame if something happened to it….” Uh huh..There is nothing free about a man getting the flesh whipped off his back and nailed to a cross till dead. Who made that depraved rule? No thanks. I thank God for John Shelby Spong, who I started reading when I was ready to dismiss the barely disguised tribal egotism - as if the creator of the universe needs one human’s belief. Wish the Salvationists would give God more credit - God’s ridiculously strong enough to endure human proclivities to IGM certainty - Salvationists who use Jesus as a door man to the magic kingdom may meet the members of the hundreds of their sister denominations, every religion, every atheist, secular humanist, hetero/non-hetero as their eternal neighbors soon as they walk through that gate. That would be worthy of worship. 🇺🇸😊✝️🇺🇸. Semper Fi. God bless John McCaine. Peace all, and thank you Bishop Spong.
Truly the language of one who denies that Christ came into the world to save sinners. Did he exegete the first chapter of John, specifically John 1:29?
Listening to this literally made my cry, so much beauty and wisdom and this is coming from a non believer(me). Shame that this is not that norm in Christianity, shame that your religion is so polluted and distorted by hate, prejudice and bigotry. But seeing people like bishop Spong gives me hope 😃
If it is anti-Christ and against sound Biblical teaching then yes it is demonic doctrine. Doesn't really matter how you feel about it - it is what it is. By the by, I really am not the one you should feel sorry for. Get a mirror.
Well it's very sad that this is the idea you have of Spong, very, very sad...even sadder though is that you think that REAL, HONEST and TRUE Christianity is bigotted and polluted...you probably don't know many Christians or if you do than they may not actually be Christians...Just a thought...listen to the opening where Spong is described as a "Prophet" you're so blind that you have no clue where this type of rhetoric is taking you...it is very sad that there are still so many people like you.
Irene M. Irene, my name is Mike and aside all the inferences you've made respective of my person, I have only to be honest and humble and not to present myself as the knower of all things but simply as someone who does his best to love everyone even those I don't agree with, even those who claim to be good and are clearly not and those who appear to know everything and in reality know little to nothing. I don't actually disapprove of anything you said I simply disagree nor am I going to judge you for what evidently seems to me to be a very poor exegesis of the scriptures. Realising that there are so many subjects here to grapple with and try to understand not by being good, because everybody is good in someone's eyes but by being honest and faithful to what the Bible teaches and not what we would like it to be. John Spong is a good man filled with good intentions...or so it seems...the only thing that saddens me is that he is clearly trying to please everybody but God and he does an excellent job at that. I am no one special, I'm just a regular man, but I'm neither stupid nor blind. I was an atheist, a raging atheist for 44 years but am no longer. When I embraced Jesus Christ I accepted this relationship on His terms, not mine...the problem with people like Spong and those who praise him for being such a good man is that he wants to proclaim a autonomous relationship with God and not a Theonomous one. God gives you and me and all of us the greatest of all gifts which is the right to choose, to choose how we view him, how we live and who and how we love...what He does not give us is what our choices may entail..so we can choose as we wish, what we can't do is determine the consequences of our choices. You seem to be a mature person hence I believe you understand what I mean..and as for sin and hell...well it's actually not at all the way you portray it but these topics are far too big for a simple youtube comment. God bless you. Mike.
Irene M. Hi Irene, I'm a musician and in the studio at the moment but I'll try to give yuou the best answers I can. I have spent many years researching several fields of knowledge, seven of which were at University. I don't belong to a particular sect or Church because I am aware of the countless crimes throughout the centuries of the Catholics, Protestants, / Lutherans, and would have to admit that the Orthodox Church has the cleanest hands of the 3 main sects..I go into a church and pray because I live in a city where there are 800, 900 and 1000 year old churches and sometimes it just feels good...nevertheless God loves us all, if He didn't He wouldn't have established covenants, commandments and sent His Son for the Ultimate Sacrifice...if God didn't love us He wouldn't care, we wouldn't have a single jot inspired by him unto those who wrote down the scriptures. Hell is no more no less than the soul's desire to be apart from God, it is no lake of fire it's a second death where God simply grants the soul what it wishes to have, it is not a form of punishment rather it is God's acquiescence to what a specific human being desires which is to be apart from Him. Sin..as Christ so simply put it is that wide door through which we all like to pass through because of the ease with which one can always do the wrong thing...it's very easy to be bad and it's very hard to be good and I'm sure you know this as well as I do...isn't it always easier and more tempting to argue and condemn than to forgive? We as children are all about doing the wrong things we have to learn through a moral code (which I don't have time to go into here) as we grow to "behave" to "be good", to be "satisfied", to not lie and so on ...it's a learning process and it's always with us until the day we die we still have that latent desire to do bad rather than good...we just grow with practice through the years but it's always there, it never goes away..we all like the easy way out to everything and that is "sin" in a nutshell. I don't agree with Rousseau when he said we're all good natured and society makes us bad...rather it is a will to power that we possess like Nietzsche said we are constantly pitting our strength against one another because any outcome you can think of can only go one way, never two, somebody is eventually going to lose and someone else will win...the trick is the perspective Christ gave us...He turned all the losers into winners too and hence He gave us an alternative so as to nullify the way we behave toward each other within the groups that make up our society.. Take care, gotta work.
Yes John, maybe Christ didn't die for out sins, nor did God sacrifice his only son so that others could be saved, but, Jesus's focus on forgiveness of others allows us to forgive ourselves in this life, so that we can forgive ourselves in the hereafter, to what purpose I've yet to figure out. John Shelby Song is a wonderful speaker and thinker that inspires. Thanks John.
@@kimg04 I believe that the verse you stated was written by Paul to Timothy, yet it was never really stated what was the "message" false teachers, however you can study it and you will know what he really means. I believe it's far from what your thinking he means right now, since you might used the verse out of context and literally interpret it, disregarding the author's situation, culture, time setting, to whom he wrote it, etc.
John the Baptist cried out concerning Jesus saying "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29) He also said, "Behold, the Lamb of God." (John 1:36) We understand that Jesus was not literally a lamb but he was the "sacrificial lamb" offered to take away the sins of the world. The Bible states "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8). 1 John 3:5 states "And he (Jesus) was manifested to take away our sins." 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning." Isn't it interesting that it can be argued that the same John who wrote the Gospel according to St. John can be said to be the self same author of 1 John, 2 John and 3 John? Clearly the Book of St. John does not take the stance that Jesus did not die for the sins of mankind, but to the contrary. Jesus as the propitiation for the sins of mankind is throughout the whole bible...from the Old Testament prophecies to the New Testament testimony. This is heresy and this is error, and this is altogether wrong!! And, if you shall prove me wrong, please do it through the scriptures by the preponderance of evidence or testimony! Let God be true and every man a lie!!
Sad for his family, no doubt, but glad that the damning influence of this Christ hater is at an end. He will be judged by the Almighty for his works..there will be no peaceful rest for him.
I've always felt kind of bad for Spong. It's clear that he wants to come out as an atheist, or possibly a person who believes in panentheism. Unfortunately, he still tries to portray himself as a member of Orthodox Christianity. This message is proof that he willfully chooses to ignore the foundational truths of the Gospel. Around the 10:00 mark, when he says that John's gospel never portrays Jesus as the savior of our sins, he is blatantly ignoring the entire dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3. He also misses the point of John's testimony to Jesus when he states that the climax of the book is Jesus' death upon the cross. No, the climax is the resurrection. John 20 is the crowning achievement of Jesus' ministry. Again, I feel deeply sorry for this man, because he loved the platform that religion has given him, yet he truly despised the actual teachings that created his religion.
Without wracking my brains too much I can think of John 1:29, and good old John3:16. Sounds like atonement to me. Why do I keep listening to these guys? Because I like intellectual self-flagellation?
BecomingMike I was using the quote as we do in anything: quote our sources. Now, are they misquoted or used out of context, or in a way that's contrary to the thrust of the whole? Well, The whole message of the Bible is this. God created a perfect world and as the highpoint of his creation, he created us, a people who were perfect and were designed to live in a perfect relationship with him. We destroyed this relationship by our rebellion against him, but our deliberate choice to be autonomous from God, able to make up our own rules, and to ultimately worship ourselves as the centre of our universe. Which means we come under the judgement of God, to live in eternal death and separation from him. That’s what we deserve. But Jesus paid the price for our sin, offering himself up as the perfect sacrifice, paying for our sin by shedding his blood, which under OT law was the price for sin. He did this so that through faith in him, we might have everlasting life. All of that is covered by the word 'atonement.' But Spong denies this. Spong's thrust seems to be, we're all good people, god is nice, so be nice people. This is not what scripture teaches. He is one of those false teachers that we are warned about, who get up and teach what people are itching to hear.
gagawithpasswords That cannot be the message of the Bible, for the world was never perfect. It was good and it always has been good. Jesus did not die for our sins, at least not in a mechanical way. Love does not demand retribution. Love demands reunion of a once broken relationship. That is the atonement. Christ shows God's love and His will to accept us. All we have to do is to accept Him. That is the atonement. No scape goating, no necessary blood shed. You make God an evil, angry father who needs to slap somebody when he is angry.
BecomingMike It's the premise of the Bible. God created it good, and it was marred by the Fall in Genesis 3. Since that time there has been sin and evil in all of us and we are all effected. Jesus did die for our sins. The NT says that explicitly. Rom 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Much of our problem comes about because we think God's anger is the opposite of his love. No, the real opposite is indifference. Because he is love, he can't just sweep sin under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen: it needed payment. His earlier provision was the sacrifice of sheep and goats, in itself looked forward to what Jesus would do one day. So in John's Gospel, when Jesus presented himself for baptism, John acknowledged him: 'behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world' John 1:29. This was a direct reference to the Passover lamb, and applying to Jesus as the one who was to die for our sins. In this way, God could satisfy his justice, because the sin was paid for by someone who was truly innocent, and yet he could make provision so that we need not be under his judgement but can be declared righteous through faith in him. A read of Paul's epistle to the Romans would be a good read for you. Add to that, if you like, Hebrews.
gagawithpasswords The very life of Jesus that was the atonement. God becoming man so that God and man could be reconciled again. The life and teachings of Jesus was the atonement. His death shown the extent of that love. God's love is the atonement.
On the contrary ....I like what he says about Christianity... He backs up some very interesting comments of his own findings and his experiences on the way he sees the bible written.. There appears to be some inconsistencies when you read the gospel eye witness accounts..they don't seem to be consistent.
Adrian, there are no inconsistencies in the eyewitness accounts. If you put several people in a place where an event happens....the details of each person will be told a little differently...yet the same. This man is a wolf in sheeps clothing, whose agenda is to cast doubt and destroy our faith in the Word of God.
There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus. The author of Luke is, for his part, specific about this saying, “With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account.” If he were giving eyewitness testimony, investigation would not have been necessary. The names associated with the 4 gospels were assigned around 200 CE. None of them have passages indicating who wrote them. They were written, by whomever did so, 40 to 70 years after Jesus’ death by people who did not know Him. There is a great deal of evidence to support this, including these books having been written originally in Greek, a language the first followers of Jesus did not speak or write. This is not controversial among Biblical scholars and is accepted by even conservative seminaries.
Flower Power Sorry, but there are many contradictions in the Gospels. Here are a few: The nativity stories of Luke and Matthew are incompatible. In one, after the birth, the Family who has journeyed to Bethlehem goes to Jerusalem after 8 days and then directly home to Nazareth . In the other they don’t travel to Bethlehem, as they seem to live there in a house, but flee to Egypt and only after years of exile go to Nazareth. The Gospel According to John has a 3 year ministry where the Synoptics all have a 1 year ministry. John sets the turning over of the money changers’ tables in the first year, followed by Jesus’ years of teaching. The others all set this event in the last week of His life. John even has Jesus being crucified on a different day than the others - the day of Passover preparation rather than the day after the Seder. As a result, John doesn’t include the Last Supper, but has a washing of feet. I could go on. These differences need not void one’s faith, but a claim of inherent consistency does not hold up to a reading of the texts.
Why is he treating the Gospels in such a Nestorian way (separate with no unity)? As if just because certain things are not mentioned in John's gospel, they are not in his thought in any way?
The Gospel of John is not traditionally seen by most Christian sects as being a part of the four as a whole. Much of John contains events not shown in any other gospel therefore it should not be consider along with the rest. That is why the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are considered the “synoptic gospels,”
Poor exegesis. What about the context of the Scripture? Prophecies in the Old Testament hundreds of years before Jesus point to Messiah dying for the sins of humanity. He yes died and rose again. To life that we could have life!!
Christianity is nonsense to start with. You want to believe that there were prophecies about Jesus but you are wrong and deluded. As an atheist, I have to say that Bishop Spong vastly improves Christianity, even though he is also wrong. If Christianity were true, I’d like it to be Spong’s exegesis.
Paul and Christ are not on the same level. Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross that we can receive forgiveness. Paul became a Christian and a follower of Jesus. Real Christians LOVE Jesus and do his will. Real Christians honor the son as they honor the Father. John 5:23.
Jesus WARNED about those who liked to wear the long clothing! Legit preachers never wear that garbage. That garbage is clue #1 to run away That definitely includes the mother wh0re of Catholicism and all it's break off sub cults including this one.
They mocked the Messiah by putting purple garments on him during his crucification. This is Blasphemy. Then they put his original clothes back on him then proceeded to kill him. The hypocrites love John so much. I stay away from those who try to prove the Bible through John. Or one book!. The Son of God, told his deciples to preach the gospel/coming of the kingdom to all who wish to hear, because 'HIS PEOPLE" rejected him. Judah and the tribes rejected him. God knows our hearts. He knows we can't make it in this world without him. All praises to The God of Abraham!!!!!
This message is not for trained, conditioned, programed radical christians ... This message is for those that have gone beyond dogma and really want to evolve spiritually. For simple minded people who are confined to that true they never deeply unearth but accept from conventional religious training this is nothing but blasphemy .... Soon they will start quoting bible verses like they know what they mean 🙄 They only repeat what others have told them.
@@bobthebuilder9553 No because the gospels claim to be historical accounts of what literally took place. To say that they can change is analogous to saying that the fact that Abraham Lincoln issues the Emancipation proclamation in January 1863. Christianity is not a spiritual experience devoid of historical fact. If you get rid of the history, its worthless and we should do something else. It is claimed as historically and literally true by the apostles that Jesus Christ died for our sins and that he was buried and that he was raised for our justification. This is good news for all people. Spong is a dangerous false teacher and to call him a Christian is a mockery of the biblical and historic Christian faith.
@@cbergland yes :) Acts 10 (sermon of St. Peter) 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 2 Peter 1:16 Besides the original accounst of the resurrection are very simple and have little to no embellishment. Besides, why would they make the first and most important witnesses women?
It's fascinating to me that if I depress the "thumb's down" for a comment I don't agree with, it isn't activated yet if I do the opposite it is recorded. Who's is behind that and what is it about?
1 John 3:5 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
What is the evidence that circumcision, kosher diet and sabbath observance were all instituted during the Babylonian exile? And why does Bishop Spong say circumcision was "re-instituted"? Does he think it was practiced by Jews and then abandoned?
Why is this guy even at the pulpit? He has stated several times that he does not believe the Bible is the Word of God! He is not a Christian by any definition of the word and he should not be allowed to speak in any Christian venue whatsoever! Is that what has become of our churches?
nce again, I consider your comment a high honor! Thank you! I want to be remembered as a man of God who believed the Word of God is His final authority for Morals and ethics. Jesus wasn't kidding when He wondered if there would be faith on the planet at His return!
marpa If the Word of God was given to men to be a testament to his commandments, why are there so many discrepancies? Why didn't God care about preserving his word as much as He cares about spreading it?
Thank you for replying here. I think you're mistaking something here... The Word of God is a testament to who Jesus is. He is the fulfillment of Scriptures. As for the preservation of His Word, He did a fine job. The so called contradictions are all easily explained if you truly want to know.
He gave his life/soul in the garden of gasthemene. That was the true crucifixion. Just like we all must do if we want to live. No one can do that for you.
There are different strains of theology which developed over time. Christianity is a smorgasbord of ideas. Not everyone accepts substitionary atonement, the virgin birth, and all kinds of other things. You kind of have to look up the history of this denomination and this congregation to understand where they're coming from.
@2000sDigitalBoy Spong is trying to bring Christianity into the 21st century. Granted, obviously the vast majority of Christian teaching cannot survive.
This person should not be in the pulpit. He doesn't represent biblical Christianity in any way shape or form. Peter, John, Paul and Jesus spoke about these kind of people in the new testament.Spong should have the honesty to come out and say , "I am a religious person who believes in a god." His scholarship on the gospel of John is sadly misrepresented.
Randy Pacchioli Does Mosaic sacrificial law support the idea of substitutionary atonement? Is there anything in the OT regarding what God said or did that would lead you to believe that God solution for sin would involve the killing of His own son?
10 minutes in...redemption of sinners (the fallen) have no place in John's gospel?? What perverted new Bible version does this guy read? JN. 1:29....behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. JN. 3:15 - 19....Jesus speaks of the Cross as the remedy for those who otherwise will perish, who are under God's condemnation. These are in just the first 3 chapters
JAMES 1:14, 26 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. 1 CORINTHIANS 3:18-20 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. PROVERBS 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. PSALMS 9:15-17 15 The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken. 16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
John Lemings Marginalized = oppressed, underprivileged, the minority either socially, religiously, educationally, racially, and relationally. Before you equate marginalization with wanting to live in sin, I encourage you to actually look at the definition to which the word refers. Would you not agree that Jesus’ entire ministry was to those who would fit that definition? The only people Jesus withdrew from were those who thought they were God’s favorites because they were following the law. His harshest words were for legalistic letter of the law keepers who looked down their noses at the less than, the whore, the gentile, the prisoner...do not get that twisted in your religious arrogance and moral superiority.
@@shanemontgomery1358 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a]will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[b] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11
Do you know that bible is your idol and all you own for a relationship with God is a book with many gospels not included. A book the Catholic Church put together for you.
9:54 - Totally false: John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
What an irrelevant discussion to be engaged in. Whether Jesus die for our sins or not. It looks to me more of an issue for some progressive Christians and I consider myself one however I do not have a problem with the doctrine of atonement nevertheless Christians like Spong and others travel around the world in a crusade attempting to emancipate those who embrace such doctrine. There are more important issues for the church now to be debating nevertheless historical and literal criticism on the scriptures offers the opportunity of full attendance forums a solid springboard to sell books. I wonder if Bishop Spong considers anything he has done in his life especially from a financial or investment perspective a sin or just the reality of the world he lives in. Sin or life I do not care but Christ came to either save us or to give us life in abundance.
1 JOHN 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. HEBREWS 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. 1 PETER 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. PSALMS 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. ISAIAH 25:7-8 7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken .
Speaks not according to the word of God. A man made religion which is full of lies and completely faithless. He is lacking the spirit of Christ, and has no spiritual wisdom or understanding. The only way to God the Father is through and in Christ, the only begotten Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. Corruption cannot put on incorruption and we need our Savior Jesus Christ.
Hes actually correct. If Jesus paid the debt for all our sins then he would still be dead. As thats the price. You must crucify your own flesh so you can arise to new life. It was metaphor.
As a Mormon raised woman, I appreciate his story about the children of lesbians going into a Mormon church, but I wish instead of threatening to beat the 14 wives, they had threatened to beat the leaders who commanded 14 women to be married to the same man. The women might be getting beaten at home already.
So typical of Christians. Judging and condemning. Who gives you the right to judge him and make such a disparaging comment? Pointing out the splinter in his eye but disregarding the beam in your own eye. If there were a devil, that would be you.
Seems that people have a problem with believing sin exists these days. One definition of sin is "Anyone who knows the good she should do but does not do it, sins." Sin is not just about making mistakes but its about not standing up for what is right at the appropriate time, its about your silence when people are doing terrible things to others that you know about but you do nothing because you fear for yourself more than others. You love your job/money more than the truth, you love your own life more than that of others. Jesus said "Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it but anyone who loses his life for my sake and the gospel will save it" A lot of people are flocking around people like Spong to hide their own guilty consciences. Why not confess your sins to God and seek his face and ask Him to give you strength, rather than trying to make justification for sinning. Jesus said "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for you shall be filled.
How can there be any hope in Spong's gospel? It is nothing more than Christianized platitudes robbed of meaning. Bishop Spong did nothing more than project his own ideas and prejudices onto Jesus.
I like Bishop Spong I have read several of his books, and listen to him whenever I can because his ideas are radical, thought provoking and unifying. Having said that, he has gutted the fish, and when you do that the fish remains a dead, empty, shell, that certainly no longer swims. I am not a Christian, but if I were I would struggle to see the point, really. Mysticism is mysticism and really doesn't require a Bishop's robe at all. He sounds more like a Unitarian than an Anglican, more like a non-believer than a believer, and more like a spiritualist than a rationalist. Having said all that, he has my respect for setting down homophobia, racism, outmoded thinking, and dark mindedness.
I studied some of his work but still perplexed since his teachings contradict the Bible!! Either St. Paul and the apostels got it wrong and wasted years in falshood or this man was the only one who got it right in the entire Christian history not to mention all churches, theologians throughout the ages, and schoolars. Does that even make sense?!! St. Paul warned of "the false teachers" and yes some might have the best of intentions but still not right.
I may be old fashioned but I dislike the way the congregation applauds after, and during the sermon. The sermon is about the word of God, not a performance by the preacher. It's a pity Mr Spong didn't start with one of the traditional opening sentences for a sermon (May I speak in the name of, etc etc) which might have stressed this fact a bit more.
I guess this is not Christianity anymore. If you strip everything away from the faith as Spong does, you end up with something completely different than what it has been before.
According to your interpretation of ancient literature you read in a different language, in a different culture, in a different time. You are confusing your own opinion with what God wants us to believe.
From a traditional Calvinist view of Orthodox Christian theology I am saying what i am convinced that this sermon is,Heresy. He clearly said that Christ did not die for our sin's.What else needs to be said but Heresy.Gross, base heresy.Also if you disagree your a bigot and a dumb racist.... nice touch.
GOODTAGO Calvinism is only 400 years old. If there would ever be a heresy, it would be that. Don't you think it is strange NO ONE ever believed the tenets of Calvinism before 1600? Quite ballsy to call anyone a heretic upon that premise.
Heresy, from the Greek, means roughly "that which is chosen." The pejorative use to which that word is accustomed, has taken the meaning of blasphemy, the profaning of God. If your idea of blasphemy, includes choosing to believe the interpretation of the sacred text that seems best and truest to you, then you set man-made convention and tradition up as God. A heresy may have far more truth than those who condemn it to the stake and the rack, as history tells.
John 1:29 Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. I am the way the truth and the life....NO man comes to the Father, except by me. To this end was I born and for this cause came I into the world to bear witness of the truth. The truth is that in which there is NO fault. I find no fault in Him. Jn 18:38. Dr. Spong needs to internalize the fact that it was the tax collector, the publican who recognizing his own sins and unworthiness, cried out for mercy and went home, justified. The cocky pharisee left the same way as he came, only with a few more sins added to his report card and for which he will one day be brought to judgement. Spong, needs to recognize that he CANNOT cherrypick a piece of the text of John to paint the whole book of John. On the cross, Christ was glorified. But the story does NOT end there. One must remember the purpose of the giving.......that whosoever believes in him, should not perish but instead, have eternal life and not eternal hell.
heresy. 1 Corinthians 15:3 "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,".
La personna che pecca e' quella che morirà, il figlio non pagherà per l' inquita'del padre,e il padre non pagherà per l" inquita' del figlio ...ez 18 20
Ci sono molte contradizioni dei 4 vangeli durante la Pasqua e durante la resurrezione ,marco 14 50 ci dice quanto sono arrivati i soldati per arrestare Gesu' tutti i discepoli scapati
The Holy Spirit is so powerful, influential, and greatly mysterious in Her doings that to some an action-- better yet a speaker-- can appear as a Light Bearer and to another the same person can appear to be the Anti-Christ. Both observers in the audience can have equal attainment of information or experience or both and yet fall into the dualism of either side. Even more profound, those who support or oppose the speaker ultimately reveal and fulfill the unfolding of our GOD. I for one appreciate John Shelby Spong, although I do not subscribe to 100% of his theological conclusions. Nevertheless, he is a Truth Seeker. He is a Gnostic Christian in its truest form.
Paul forbade women from teaching in the church and having authority of men. If the Holy Spirit is female how does that work exactly? Stop clowning with scripture.
@@TuxKamen Unilateral equality between men and women is not biblical. Feminism is a Jewish fable. Titus 1:14 warns against listening to Jewish fables such as Jesus being one of them or that Edomite Jews are Israel or their holocaust fable described as whining about "being impoverished" in Malachi 1:4. Stop clowning with scripture.
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Thank you for your post. Much of Spongs ideas are floated in a bubble without a consideration of Holy Scripture.
according to whom
@@johnjumper7066 do you feel guilty and responsible for the death of Jesus?
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
@@johnjumper7066 very misinformed statement.
"You will not find Peace until you have removed the nails from the hands of God's Son, and taken the last thorn from His forehead. The Love of God surrounds His Son whom the god of crucifixion condems. Teach not that I died in vain. Teach rather that I did not die by demonstrating that I live in you."
~ A Course in Miracles ♥️
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned-every one-to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."
--Isaiah 53:4-6
This is a passage about Israel not Jesus.
@@erykpatrykchudy5675 that’s the packaged answer, but it doesn’t hold up to exegesis.
AND there are rabbinical sources who agree it IS talking about Messiah, not the nation, In this verse (there are verses in the previous chapters which talk of Israel as the Servant. That is not in contention).
The Nation gets punished for its sins. This is talking about a sinless Servant, who bore sins, just like the High Priestly Role which some say Messiah ben Joseph will fulfill. This servant is killed (Israel as a nation or people never died, and will never die). When taken with Daniel’s prophecies that Messiah will be cut off, and that happening during the era of the Second Temple, the ONLY candidate for this is Yeshua. Jesus.
Romans 4:25
He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.
Amen. They are willingly ignorant.
@@John-dw6ruI agree with you
@@John-dw6ru Who are you to question Paul? This was a man who constantly sacrificed and suffered greatly in order to spread the Gospel of God. And his apostleship was confirmed by the twelve. Jesus said we can know them by their fruit. Those who invent lies do so for shameful gain. Muhammad took wives, lands, and slaves; Joseph Smith, likewise, took wives, money, and power for himself. What did Paul take? Paul took lashes across his back. Paul took homelessness, persecution, and distress. Paul took it upon himself to be poured out as a drink offering time and time again for the sake of Christ. And Paul was beloved by the early church, and his life testimony is above and beyond all reproach. Yet because the scriptures penned by Paul are offensive to your 21st century, sin-dulled sensibilities, you have the right to read his epistles with "a grain of salt"? I would encourage you to repent and believe the Gospel. To reject historical, biblical orthodoxy is to play fast and loose with your very soul.
@@samuelrosenbalm As I said, if it works for you, and you find his words to be a blessing, who am I to try to change or influence your experiences.
@@John-dw6ru To be completely honest, I couldn't care less about what works for me. If I did, I might very well reject Paul's teachings and give in to my sin. No, I care about what is objectively true. And objectively speaking, Paul's apostleship can stand up to the toughest scrutiny. It is not unknown to us what the Apostles taught, which they sealed with their own blood. Nor is it a mystery what the early Christian church believed. It would serve you well to stop picking and choosing what suits you, and to humble yourself before God and repent of your sins, trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, and believing in your heart that God raised Him bodily from the dead. Jesus Christ lived the perfect life that we, as sinners, could not live. And being without sin, He died a sinners death - the very death that we ourselves owe. And God completely validated all that Jesus Christ did and accomplished when He raised Him from the dead. The power of sin and death has been dealt a mortal blow. And all those who are in Christ Jesus are counted as righteous, and are guaranteed victory over sin and death. Jesus Christ will one day return, and He will judge the entire world, taking vengeance on the wicked, and whosoever loves falsehood. Repent, and believe the Gospel.
This man is a true visionary, a mystic, I'd even say. I had a personal experience during meditation (on Good Friday, no less!) that revealed these same sentiments to me. Ever since then, I've lived based on those revelations and my life has become richer, fuller, and more filled with love than it ever had with the "Remember, you're a sinner!" mentality I'd been taught growing up in the Episcopal church.
Great to see that others, especially a man of the church, have realized this, too. Now I don't feel so alone. Wake up, everyone!
A spirit of antichrist perhaps, considering meditation is related to divination. Which is demonic.
I disagree, since meditation is simply one traveling into their own thoughts/subconscious, and I don't see anything wrong with divination, either, but to each their own.
TheaterRaven As far as you know. Been there, done that. Spirits are not something you should mess around with
Fair enough. Like I said, to each their own. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe. Namaste. :)
TheaterRaven Eternity is a long time.
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus, WHOM GOD PUT FORWARD AS A PROPITIATION BY HIS BLOOD, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
--Romans 3:23-26
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.-Psalm 118:8
Well, if God doesn't speak to us through each other, just how does God speak to us? Through The Bible? Hmmm, which translation?
This is the only way I can believe in Jesus. Bishop Spong has done a tremendous service to the church by his service. I arrived at this point of view by myself and was in so much doubt that I was right that to hear another speak the same thoughts made me weep. Christianity now is both believable and desirable Thank you for sharing
+hermenutic This is not Christianity, it is an utterly false "gospel" that denies the truths of both the fallen, sinful state of man, and the perfect being and atoning work of Jesus Christ our Savior. If you believe what Spong here says, it is not Jesus that you believe in, but lies from the evil one. "For even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". Please find a good church with a Bible-believing pastor and teachers from whom you can learn the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, which has the power to save your soul.
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:2
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," - Ephesians 2:4-6
"And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,'" - Revelation 5:9
*****
It seems to me that the Jewish religion did away with human sacrifice. I think it is unreasonable to think that Christianity re-instituted the idea of human sacrifice.
If the death of Christ was not a human sacrifice I see no reason to disqualify him from being redeemer and savior. It was he himself who placed the emphasis on his teaching of the gospel of the kingdom as a means of entering into the kingdom.
Yes Christ lived, taught and died and was raised up. But in the tradition he came from human sacrifice was never anything they did. Human sacrifice is a non-Jewish, non-Christian practice.
Well the Christian church presents Jesus as a human sacrifice by means of it's soteriology and doctrine of atonement/ propitiation and wrath doctrines it produces to make believers of people. Yes I would agree God did not imagine of human sacrifice as part of the gospel message, but the Christian church has made it to be that way. Jesus is said to be human and it is said his death was a sacrifice. It really does not take mental gymnastics to recognize that means human sacrifice It is a bloody doctrine of revenge and savage indignation. The Reformer Martin Luther explains the sacrifice of Christ in the following words. "Our most merciful Father…sent his only Son into the world and laid upon him…the sins of all men saying: Be thou Peter that denier; Paul that persecutor, blasphemer and cruel oppressor; David that adulterer; that sinner which did eat the apple in Paradise; that thief which hanged upon the cross; and briefly be thou the person which hath committed the sins of all men; see therefore that thou pay and satisfy for them. Here now comes the law and saith: I find him a sinner…therefore let him die upon the cross. And so he setteth upon him and killeth him. By this means the whole world is purged and cleansed from all sins.” bible.org/illustration/christ-our-substituteDoes this sound like a human sacrifice or does it not sound like a human sacrifice? I'd say it sounds like a human sacrifice. So that is what I had in mind.
Well I did not mean to do that but to a rational observer with millennia of Christian doctrine explaining the death as a propitiation designed to avert the anger and wrath of God does appear to be a sacrifice and Jesus was a human. The gnostic Christians believe otherwise, that Jesus was not a human. One thing is certain about Jesus. He did die and his words are spirit and life and those who receive them will never die. But as for this full of wrath hell fire propitiation business not being a human sacrifice I just do not see why it cannot be called what it is portrayed as by the Christian Church. Even in Catholic circles the mass is called a 'sacrifice'. You can hardly get any more Christian than the RC Church. Personally I do not regard his death as a sacrifice in the theological sense, but as a murder. Like you and me will meet out fate , he died like a human at the hands of evil men. Jesus was spit out into existence as a human just like us where he was murdered. It is the Christian church which regards his death as a sacrifice and has developed theology to demonstrate that and that is why I spoke like that. I regard Jesus' words as spirit and life and a means of transformation which is how the apostle Paul regarded information about Christ.So that is the reason I feel that way. I do not see any cheapening of the Christ experience by simply saying what it is. It is a sacrifice in the way it is portrayed by Christian doctrine and in Christian doctrine, much of it anyhow, Jesus is considered to be completely human so that he could empathize with us and bear our sorrows and afflictions and understand our feelings as humans. To say his death was not a human sacrifice seems to me to disparage his entire purpose in coming if we look at it in that context. He joined himself with humanity by means of the incarnation and by his teaching raised us all to life as sons and daughters in the family of God. Where I disagree with the churches idea of sacrifice propitiation etc is that I do not believe Jesus died to satisfy the claims of any written religious code of behavior on our behalf. In fact he said he came to give abundant life. I hope that explains my thought. I wish to repeat I did not want to or mean to disparage the work of Christ whom I admire and to whose teaching I am committed to seek understanding with greater and greater clarity. Jesus has promised each of us the Holy Spirit and taught specifically that with the Spirit there is no need for any man to teach you, because with the Spirit, God is your personal teacher.Most Christians will rebel at such an idea. But Jesus was a rebel and he did not like religion one bit. .
***** I'm convinced truth is understood differently by different people and that even if the understanding is different it can still be the 'truth'.
"There is no atonement in the Fourth Gospel . . . "
"The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"" John 1:29
"There is no wallowing in the sinfulness of humanity . . ."
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24
"Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."" John 8:34
"Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains." John 9:41
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." John 15:22
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment." John 16:8
"There's no portrayal of Jesus as the divine rescuer who comes to save the sinner . . ."
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:16-17
I don't think he's really read the Fourth Gospel. He's just read it through his specially-colored lenses.
Yes. Saying what he wants to believe. And those who believe him want an excuse to live their own way and not God’s. A perfect example of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Jesus spoke about love and forgiveness. And only through him is it possible
@@kimg04 totally agree. Frankly speaking, this heresy tends to seem more dangerous than many sects today, cuz they are not even parts of Christianity. This man and his teaching claim to be real Christian teaching and the sole right statement. Jesus taught us about them. So the Holy Spirit spoke to us this way: “Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed 35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:34-35)
@@rodionkadatskyi182 says he is a Christian yet he is speaking against Christianity 🤔
If Jesus died for your sins then he would still be dead as that is the price. No one can do that for you. YOU must crucify your own carnal flesh so your new regenerated man can arise.
Hebrews 5:7, Psalm 18, 41, 91 Refutes Christianity lie of Jesus' death. Thats the point of PASSOVER.
And the lamb of God is his holy spirit not a man named Jesus. Isaiah 40:3.
Unfortunately the truth was corrupted over the centuries. You must offer your life as a living sacrifice for others as Jesus did.
He to had to be born from above. Romans 1:3-4. He didnt become a son until his miracle NEW BIRTH not physical birth.
@@jdaze1 So He didn't become the Son of God until His "miracle new birth"? I take it you mean His baptism? Well, when Jesus was 12 years old - many years before His baptism - He was teaching in the temple, and I believe He said that He was "about His Father's business". So He called God His Father, even at 12. And it was not common for Jews in those days to refer to God as their Father. In fact, it was so unheard of that His own mother had no clue what He was talking about. So I think that pretty much sinks the adoptionism heresy that you espouse.
John Shelby Spong's message cannot be handled by evangelical conservative bible-quoting fundamentalists who believe they have acquired the entire Truth about God. But only by those who are open to be challenged by the Mystery we all call God.
C. Mokgotho to quote Jack Nicholson with a slight edit “They can’t handle the truth!”
Yeah, this guy can't handle the truth that God's word is undisputable.
Jesus to people like John MacAurthur, “John, I literally never said to hate, discriminate, subjugate, or belittle anybody in my name. I came into the world to open my arms to it and you wanted to make it an exclusive club for white people.”
Well said
@@Weatherman1214 What a divisive and racist thing to write.
I'm an atheist and I love John Shelby Spong. (I also love the Cologne Cathedral, and Bach, but I digress)
He tickles your ears , doesn't he? Live the way you want ---- it will not affect society around you. Hmmmm
@@PBJ5519 I live the way I want by making sure I care about everybody's well being. You don't need a god for that, unless by "god" you mean higher idea of self. What would you prefer: I dislike John Shelby Spong? Many Christian fundummies sure do.
2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for
themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
My whole thinking on Christianity was confirmed by this courageous man who dared to voices what millions think but dare not voice within a brainwashed church. He brings people closer to the real God rather than the one we've been sold.
Amen
A made up God made by his own desires. God is the same yesterday, tomorrow and forever. He already found out by now who is the real God.
@10:00 "There's no portrayal of Jesus as the divine rescuer who comes to save the sinner".
John 10: 14-15 "I am the Good Shepherd... and I lay down my life for the sheep".
John 4:22 "... salvation is from the Jews."
John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
John 1:29 "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world"
Spong is a false teacher who does not even know the gospel he claims to have studied.
Why then do you listen to him?
@@dougthatcher3521 RUclips suggested videos, probably. Their algorithm is far from perfect.
Exactly! This is when we must be aware! They are against God. This is the arrogance the Bible speaks of. If you have kids, you are a sinner. No matter if you do everything else right. He clearly says we all must bow. I pray that day is soon! I've been sucked in, and I'm doing everything in my power through the Savior to wake up the world. If you didn't believe, you wouldn't waste your time on lies🤔🤔🤔🤔
If Jesus paid the debt for our sins then he would still be dead. Thats the price for my sins. Psalm 146:3.
No one died for your sins. Hebrews 5:7, psalm 18, 41, 91.
"I was not punished because you were bad"
Jesus 🤍
Mr. Spong says at 22:04- "Jesus did not die for your sins; what a strange and terrible idea that is. It makes God an ogre, who would demand the death of the son. That makes God the ultimate child abuser. It turns Jesus into being a masochistic sufferer. It turns you and me into being guilt-laden people because we become responsible for the death of Jesus...You and I were not born in sin; we were born incomplete. We do not need to be rescued from sin, we need to be empowered to become all that we are."
Everyone needs to run away from this heretic as fast as you can. Read your Bibles and you will see his lies for what they are. Christ DID in fact die for your sins and you are, myself included, born in sin/with a sinful nature. He says John's Gospels does not speak of these things. Please just read John chapter 3. For example "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."--John 3:36. Please, again, ready your Bible and understand that God is Holy and Christ is our mediator between His Righteous Wrath and our sin. Do not die in your sin (law breaking)! Come to Christ! Do not listen to this false preacher!
Patrick Cole nope
Spong makes more sense that you
Nice try buddy
I was already of the opinion that there's not much good that can said about God, but I like going to church, as funny as that sounds. Going to a church like this sounds doable.
Here is the rub...those detractors here are Biblical literalist and people like me who agree w Spong see the Bible as an inspired yet fallible set of writings best understood in the context of the political, cultural and geographic setting in which those books are written. I once believed as they, that Spong was dangerous. However, after coming to my moral end my believes about Jesus and the Bible had to be set because my conservative religion never worked. Magic Jesus never materialized. However, the God Spong speaks about I now comprehend and worship has brought me hope, peace, and serenity. I’m done with fear, shame, and manipulation.
@@shanemontgomery1358 - Myself and many others do take the Bible literally, but *literally* in the sense of we take the Bible for what it means when it is both literal in actual historical events AND when it is literally metaphorical/poetic. You're correct to run from the extreme "literalist" interpretation that seems to take everything at surface level with no literary depth, but you're also incorrect to fall off on the other side to this extreme solely "allegorical/didactic" approach to Scripture. It's an interpretative balance we must strive for if we want to garner the entire Truth of God's Word.
You then say that Scripture is "inspired yet fallible." You'll have to redefine inspiration if you believe there's no logical incoherence here. By definition, theologically speaking, when we say the Scriptures are inspired we mean this *necessarily* entails they are then infallible. The Scriptures are given and authored by God, therefore it is inspired AND infallible. It never fails in its truth. I also agree we should understand the Scriptures in its "political, cultural and geographic setting" and context, but this doesn't take away from Scripture's infallibility. This simply shows the context in which God gave His Scriptures and helps us to understand His infallible Truth.
"However, after coming to my moral end my believes about Jesus and the Bible had to be set because my conservative religion never worked. Magic Jesus never materialized. However, the God Spong speaks about I now comprehend and worship has brought me hope, peace, and serenity. I’m done with fear, shame, and manipulation."--Shane, with all due respect, this statement simply reveals you need the Gospel (i.e. Christ dying for your sins and setting you free from the power of sin). I'm sure there is hurt, disappointment and many other painful things you've experienced in your religious past, but this is ultimately irrelevant. I agree conservative religion in itself won't save you. It's not about conservatism/liberalism or any other 'ism.' It's about have you bowed the knee to the Lord of Glory, the one Who died for your sins. If you would look to the Savior crucified for your sins and repent of them with a sincere and contrite heart, and believe Christ resurrected from the dead, you shall be saved (i.e. saved from the Wrath of God). Spong's gospel won't save you--he is anathema (e.g. Galatians 1:7--"If we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed."). Spong's gospel does not give you the worship, *peace,* and serenity with God you believe you've found (Romans 5:1--"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have *peace* with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."--emphasis mine). There is only peace with a Holy, Holy, Holy God through the sin-bearing crucified savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.There is no hope in anything contrary to this you have found. The Love of the Lord is extended to you, turn back to Him, or the Wrath of God abides on you.
*Please, read these verses about Christ dying for the sins of men* (All ESV)
- 1 Peter 2:24--"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed."
- Isaiah 53:4-6, 10--"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned-every one-to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all...Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt."
- 2 Corinthians 5:21--"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
- Galatians 3:10-13--"For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.'"
- John 1:29--"The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"
- 1 John 2:1-2--"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the *propitiation for our sins,* and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." (emphasis mine)
Patrick Cole you have become like a Pharisee. I pray you can deepen your understanding
1 Peter 3:18Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the
righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put
to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit
You too must crucify your flesh so you can rise to new life. That was the point of the story. No one did it FOR you.
Its talking about carnal flesh not physical flesh. You must crucify YOUR carnal flesh so that you can live.
Bishop Spong was the first author and teacher to help me break out of my straitjacketed fundamentalist mindset. Awesome intellect!
How did he do that?
I saw the lies when l was 10 yrs old Sunday school
Christianity is about love, about living full life.Thanks
Christianity is about reconciliation with God. You're welcome.
May GOD FORGIVE YOU even though you know exactly what you are doing. All I can say to you John that having encountered God in my Parish Chruch and later on a mountain stream and thence to encounter Christ on the peak of that mountain, all I can say to you is that the ordination of women was and is against God's will and that If you present a fallen person to Christ [ no therapies] Jesus will meet and heal them if they desire healing - As a mortal and a sinner I know that Christ both lives, saves and heals.
God was born a man in the Son, Christ Jesus; in Him the glory of God was seen in human flesh. By the power of His eternal spirit Jesus Christ atoned for our sins on the cross of Golgatha and overcame sin, death and condemnation. He rose from the dead! If you receive Jesus Christ in faith as your Savior and Lord and follow Him, you'll be saved into eternal life with God - whoever you are.
Johanna040713 This is poetry and epodich, mystical speech for obtaining Christ consciousness. To integrate and connect with Divine Source, the forward moving Creator. It is an archetype that transcends time and all locality.
Jesus said that we will do as he did, and there were those that preceded him that did before him. We are all the Christ, untapped, connected to the Wonder of Existence, which we call G-d, that of which cannot be named.
Christians worship Ba'al. They were tricked into the worship of Ba'al. They sold their Souls to the Devil, the LORD they worship today.
I’m sorry but that meme sounds more and more like that “Offer you can’t refuse”:
“God the Father loves you and your eternal soul is precious to him. Be a shame if something happened to it….” Uh huh..There is nothing free about a man getting the flesh whipped off his back and nailed to a cross till dead. Who made that depraved rule? No thanks. I thank God for John Shelby Spong, who I started reading when I was ready to dismiss the barely disguised tribal egotism - as if the creator of the universe needs one human’s belief. Wish the Salvationists would give God more credit - God’s ridiculously strong enough to endure human proclivities to IGM certainty - Salvationists who use Jesus as a door man to the magic kingdom may meet the members of the hundreds of their sister denominations, every religion, every atheist, secular humanist, hetero/non-hetero as their eternal neighbors soon as they walk through that gate. That would be worthy of worship. 🇺🇸😊✝️🇺🇸. Semper Fi. God bless John McCaine. Peace all, and thank you Bishop Spong.
we don not need to be rescued from sin, we need to be empowered to be all that we are.....RIP John Shelby Spong
This man is leading people astray. I am glad I Know The Truth Because He Is a False Teacher.
That is pure nonsense
You will see when you die in your sin
Truly the language of one who denies that Christ came into the world to save sinners. Did he exegete the first chapter of John, specifically John 1:29?
Listening to this literally made my cry, so much beauty and wisdom and this is coming from a non believer(me). Shame that this is not that norm in Christianity, shame that your religion is so polluted and distorted by hate, prejudice and bigotry. But seeing people like bishop Spong gives me hope 😃
Hope for what? This is the doctrine of devils. You have nothing to look forward to but the eternity without God. Is that really what you want?
If it is anti-Christ and against sound Biblical teaching then yes it is demonic doctrine. Doesn't really matter how you feel about it - it is what it is. By the by, I really am not the one you should feel sorry for. Get a mirror.
Well it's very sad that this is the idea you have of Spong, very, very sad...even sadder though is that you think that REAL, HONEST and TRUE Christianity is bigotted and polluted...you probably don't know many Christians or if you do than they may not actually be Christians...Just a thought...listen to the opening where Spong is described as a "Prophet" you're so blind that you have no clue where this type of rhetoric is taking you...it is very sad that there are still so many people like you.
Irene M. Irene, my name is Mike and aside all the inferences you've made respective of my person, I have only to be honest and humble and not to present myself as the knower of all things but simply as someone who does his best to love everyone even those I don't agree with, even those who claim to be good and are clearly not and those who appear to know everything and in reality know little to nothing. I don't actually disapprove of anything you said I simply disagree nor am I going to judge you for what evidently seems to me to be a very poor exegesis of the scriptures.
Realising that there are so many subjects here to grapple with and try to understand not by being good, because everybody is good in someone's eyes but by being honest and faithful to what the Bible teaches and not what we would like it to be. John Spong is a good man filled with good intentions...or so it seems...the only thing that saddens me is that he is clearly trying to please everybody but God and he does an excellent job at that. I am no one special, I'm just a regular man, but I'm neither stupid nor blind. I was an atheist, a raging atheist for 44 years but am no longer. When I embraced Jesus Christ I accepted this relationship on His terms, not mine...the problem with people like Spong and those who praise him for being such a good man is that he wants to proclaim a autonomous relationship with God and not a Theonomous one. God gives you and me and all of us the greatest of all gifts which is the right to choose, to choose how we view him, how we live and who and how we love...what He does not give us is what our choices may entail..so we can choose as we wish, what we can't do is determine the consequences of our choices. You seem to be a mature person hence I believe you understand what I mean..and as for sin and hell...well it's actually not at all the way you portray it but these topics are far too big for a simple youtube comment. God bless you. Mike.
Irene M. Hi Irene, I'm a musician and in the studio at the moment but I'll try to give yuou the best answers I can. I have spent many years researching several fields of knowledge, seven of which were at University. I don't belong to a particular sect or Church because I am aware of the countless crimes throughout the centuries of the Catholics, Protestants, / Lutherans, and would have to admit that the Orthodox Church has the cleanest hands of the 3 main sects..I go into a church and pray because I live in a city where there are 800, 900 and 1000 year old churches and sometimes it just feels good...nevertheless God loves us all, if He didn't He wouldn't have established covenants, commandments and sent His Son for the Ultimate Sacrifice...if God didn't love us He wouldn't care, we wouldn't have a single jot inspired by him unto those who wrote down the scriptures.
Hell is no more no less than the soul's desire to be apart from God, it is no lake of fire it's a second death where God simply grants the soul what it wishes to have, it is not a form of punishment rather it is God's acquiescence to what a specific human being desires which is to be apart from Him.
Sin..as Christ so simply put it is that wide door through which we all like to pass through because of the ease with which one can always do the wrong thing...it's very easy to be bad and it's very hard to be good and I'm sure you know this as well as I do...isn't it always easier and more tempting to argue and condemn than to forgive? We as children are all about doing the wrong things we have to learn through a moral code (which I don't have time to go into here) as we grow to "behave" to "be good", to be "satisfied", to not lie and so on ...it's a learning process and it's always with us until the day we die we still have that latent desire to do bad rather than good...we just grow with practice through the years but it's always there, it never goes away..we all like the easy way out to everything and that is "sin" in a nutshell. I don't agree with Rousseau when he said we're all good natured and society makes us bad...rather it is a will to power that we possess like Nietzsche said we are constantly pitting our strength against one another because any outcome you can think of can only go one way, never two, somebody is eventually going to lose and someone else will win...the trick is the perspective Christ gave us...He turned all the losers into winners too and hence He gave us an alternative so as to nullify the way we behave toward each other within the groups that make up our society.. Take care, gotta work.
Yes John, maybe Christ didn't die for out sins, nor did God sacrifice his only son so that others could be saved, but, Jesus's focus on forgiveness of others allows us to forgive ourselves in this life, so that we can forgive ourselves in the hereafter, to what purpose I've yet to figure out. John Shelby Song is a wonderful speaker and thinker that inspires. Thanks John.
But didnt God created us sinner?
Yes Jesus was sacrificed for our sins .
@@sheilalangston7035 bible is true cuz the bible says so,if bible would say all people are stupid what would you say?
My wife almost had her faith destroyed reading one of song's books.
They will turn to teachers who tell them what their itching ears want to hear!
Exactly.
Where is this? I haven't come across one single person who can tickle my ears yet. Get going then. Where are they?
Christianity is a dead religion now full of crazies and loons who just repeat scripture.
A wolf in sheep’s clothing. Many people will follow this man because he’s telling them what they want to hear. He’s a liar
@@kimg04 I believe that the verse you stated was written by Paul to Timothy, yet it was never really stated what was the "message" false teachers, however you can study it and you will know what he really means. I believe it's far from what your thinking he means right now, since you might used the verse out of context and literally interpret it, disregarding the author's situation, culture, time setting, to whom he wrote it, etc.
John the Baptist cried out concerning Jesus saying "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29) He also said, "Behold, the Lamb of God." (John 1:36) We understand that Jesus was not literally a lamb but he was the "sacrificial lamb" offered to take away the sins of the world. The Bible states "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8). 1 John 3:5 states "And he (Jesus) was manifested to take away our sins." 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning." Isn't it interesting that it can be argued that the same John who wrote the Gospel according to St. John can be said to be the self same author of 1 John, 2 John and 3 John? Clearly the Book of St. John does not take the stance that Jesus did not die for the sins of mankind, but to the contrary. Jesus as the propitiation for the sins of mankind is throughout the whole bible...from the Old Testament prophecies to the New Testament testimony. This is heresy and this is error, and this is altogether wrong!! And, if you shall prove me wrong, please do it through the scriptures by the preponderance of evidence or testimony! Let God be true and every man a lie!!
Thank you for this!
RIP Bishop John Shelby Spong 🙏❤️ June 16, 1931- September 12, 2021
Sad for his family, no doubt, but glad that the damning influence of this Christ hater is at an end. He will be judged by the Almighty for his works..there will be no peaceful rest for him.
@@garethifan1034 Unfortunately his life's work of railing against Christ is still available, especially now in this new information age. Tragic
A truly great man who brought common sense and an informed sense to the scripture rather than the ignorant thinking of the masses.
@@rrickarr TAKE THAT GOD!!!!!
He’s roasting in hell right now!
The world loves it's own
"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him will not perish."
I've always felt kind of bad for Spong. It's clear that he wants to come out as an atheist, or possibly a person who believes in panentheism. Unfortunately, he still tries to portray himself as a member of Orthodox Christianity. This message is proof that he willfully chooses to ignore the foundational truths of the Gospel. Around the 10:00 mark, when he says that John's gospel never portrays Jesus as the savior of our sins, he is blatantly ignoring the entire dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3. He also misses the point of John's testimony to Jesus when he states that the climax of the book is Jesus' death upon the cross. No, the climax is the resurrection. John 20 is the crowning achievement of Jesus' ministry. Again, I feel deeply sorry for this man, because he loved the platform that religion has given him, yet he truly despised the actual teachings that created his religion.
Without wracking my brains too much I can think of John 1:29, and good old John3:16. Sounds like atonement to me. Why do I keep listening to these guys? Because I like intellectual self-flagellation?
Quoting verses as proof texts is irrational...
BecomingMike I was using the quote as we do in anything: quote our sources. Now, are they misquoted or used out of context, or in a way that's contrary to the thrust of the whole? Well, The whole message of the Bible is this. God created a perfect world and as the highpoint of his creation, he created us, a people who were perfect and were designed to live in a perfect relationship with him. We destroyed this relationship by our rebellion against him, but our deliberate choice to be autonomous from God, able to make up our own rules, and to ultimately worship ourselves as the centre of our universe. Which means we come under the judgement of God, to live in eternal death and separation from him. That’s what we deserve. But Jesus paid the price for our sin, offering himself up as the perfect sacrifice, paying for our sin by shedding his blood, which under OT law was the price for sin. He did this so that through faith in him, we might have everlasting life. All of that is covered by the word 'atonement.' But Spong denies this. Spong's thrust seems to be, we're all good people, god is nice, so be nice people. This is not what scripture teaches. He is one of those false teachers that we are warned about, who get up and teach what people are itching to hear.
gagawithpasswords That cannot be the message of the Bible, for the world was never perfect. It was good and it always has been good. Jesus did not die for our sins, at least not in a mechanical way. Love does not demand retribution. Love demands reunion of a once broken relationship. That is the atonement. Christ shows God's love and His will to accept us. All we have to do is to accept Him. That is the atonement. No scape goating, no necessary blood shed. You make God an evil, angry father who needs to slap somebody when he is angry.
BecomingMike It's the premise of the Bible. God created it good, and it was marred by the Fall in Genesis 3. Since that time there has been sin and evil in all of us and we are all effected. Jesus did die for our sins. The NT says that explicitly. Rom 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Much of our problem comes about because we think God's anger is the opposite of his love. No, the real opposite is indifference. Because he is love, he can't just sweep sin under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen: it needed payment. His earlier provision was the sacrifice of sheep and goats, in itself looked forward to what Jesus would do one day. So in John's Gospel, when Jesus presented himself for baptism, John acknowledged him: 'behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world' John 1:29. This was a direct reference to the Passover lamb, and applying to Jesus as the one who was to die for our sins. In this way, God could satisfy his justice, because the sin was paid for by someone who was truly innocent, and yet he could make provision so that we need not be under his judgement but can be declared righteous through faith in him. A read of Paul's epistle to the Romans would be a good read for you. Add to that, if you like, Hebrews.
gagawithpasswords The very life of Jesus that was the atonement. God becoming man so that God and man could be reconciled again. The life and teachings of Jesus was the atonement. His death shown the extent of that love. God's love is the atonement.
On the contrary ....I like what he says about Christianity... He backs up some very interesting comments of his own findings and his experiences on the way he sees the bible written..
There appears to be some inconsistencies when you read the gospel eye witness accounts..they don't seem to be consistent.
Adrian, there are no inconsistencies in the eyewitness accounts. If you put several people in a place where an event happens....the details of each person will be told a little differently...yet the same. This man is a wolf in sheeps clothing, whose agenda is to cast doubt and destroy our faith in the Word of God.
There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus. The author of Luke is, for his part, specific about this saying, “With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account.” If he were giving eyewitness testimony, investigation would not have been necessary. The names associated with the 4 gospels were assigned around 200 CE. None of them have passages indicating who wrote them. They were written, by whomever did so, 40 to 70 years after Jesus’ death by people who did not know Him. There is a great deal of evidence to support this, including these books having been written originally in Greek, a language the first followers of Jesus did not speak or write. This is not controversial among Biblical scholars and is accepted by even conservative seminaries.
Flower Power Sorry, but there are many contradictions in the Gospels. Here are a few: The nativity stories of Luke and Matthew are incompatible. In one, after the birth, the Family who has journeyed to Bethlehem goes to Jerusalem after 8 days and then directly home to Nazareth . In the other they don’t travel to Bethlehem, as they seem to live there in a house, but flee to Egypt and only after years of exile go to Nazareth. The Gospel According to John has a 3 year ministry where the Synoptics all have a 1 year ministry. John sets the turning over of the money changers’ tables in the first year, followed by Jesus’ years of teaching. The others all set this event in the last week of His life. John even has Jesus being crucified on a different day than the others - the day of Passover preparation rather than the day after the Seder. As a result, John doesn’t include the Last Supper, but has a washing of feet. I could go on. These differences need not void one’s faith, but a claim of inherent consistency does not hold up to a reading of the texts.
Thank you, Bishop Spong.
Can you define exactly what you are thanking him for?
Mark and Avoid this Heretic.
Why is he treating the Gospels in such a Nestorian way (separate with no unity)? As if just because certain things are not mentioned in John's gospel, they are not in his thought in any way?
For the same reason that you don't try to reconcile different books by different authors.
The Gospel of John is not traditionally seen by most Christian sects as being a part of the four as a whole. Much of John contains events not shown in any other gospel therefore it should not be consider along with the rest. That is why the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are considered the “synoptic gospels,”
eternity is outside of time. Time is a dimension of this dimension....created by people as a measurment.
This Spong guy is leading people astray.
Poor exegesis. What about the context of the Scripture? Prophecies in the Old Testament hundreds of years before Jesus point to Messiah dying for the sins of humanity. He yes died and rose again. To life that we could have life!!
Christianity is nonsense to start with. You want to believe that there were prophecies about Jesus but you are wrong and deluded. As an atheist, I have to say that Bishop Spong vastly improves Christianity, even though he is also wrong. If Christianity were true, I’d like it to be Spong’s exegesis.
DO CHRISTIANS FOLLOW JESUS TEACHING OR PAUL TEACHING?
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS AND PAUL?
DO CHRISTIANS REALLY LOVE JESUS?
Paul and Christ are not on the same level. Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross that we can receive forgiveness. Paul became a
Christian and a follower of Jesus. Real Christians LOVE Jesus and do his will. Real Christians honor the son as they honor the Father. John 5:23.
Isn’t it hillarious that they have redefined everything theologically but they still wear those silly garments?! Why?
Lacking the authority that comes from a genuine calling and mandate from God, they fake it with baubles and robes.
Jesus WARNED about those who liked to wear the long clothing!
Legit preachers never wear that garbage.
That garbage is clue #1 to run away
That definitely includes the mother wh0re of Catholicism and all it's break off sub cults including this one.
They mocked the Messiah by putting purple garments on him during his crucification. This is Blasphemy. Then they put his original clothes back on him then proceeded to kill him. The hypocrites love John so much. I stay away from those who try to prove the Bible through John. Or one book!. The Son of God, told his deciples to preach the gospel/coming of the kingdom to all who wish to hear, because 'HIS PEOPLE" rejected him. Judah and the tribes rejected him. God knows our hearts. He knows we can't make it in this world without him. All praises to The God of Abraham!!!!!
@@555pontifex And take titles such as "the most reverend".
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.
From such turn away.
Yesss! I do not identify as a christian but I am a lover of truth and follower of love...this man is a light!
God bless you
Knowing God doesn't require a formula
God is not a Christian nor a Muslim
That will not help you, my friend. Please Read John 5:38-40
You walk in darkness. Jesus Christ is the light.
This message is not for trained, conditioned, programed radical christians ... This message is for those that have gone beyond dogma and really want to evolve spiritually. For simple minded people who are confined to that true they never deeply unearth but accept from conventional religious training this is nothing but blasphemy .... Soon they will start quoting bible verses like they know what they mean 🙄
They only repeat what others have told them.
This message is for people who lean on their own understanding and create their own God 🙄
jubinych: to what you have written, I can only say: AMEN!!!!
Loving me some Bishop Spong!
TRUTH.
An angel of light!
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Then he would still be dead as thats the price for our sins.
He knows now
May his memory stirr up love for Christ
Jesus is God as far as I can see that makes me Goddess
No it doesn’t.
This is so sad. Lord have mercy.
@@bobthebuilder9553 No because the gospels claim to be historical accounts of what literally took place. To say that they can change is analogous to saying that the fact that Abraham Lincoln issues the Emancipation proclamation in January 1863. Christianity is not a spiritual experience devoid of historical fact. If you get rid of the history, its worthless and we should do something else. It is claimed as historically and literally true by the apostles that Jesus Christ died for our sins and that he was buried and that he was raised for our justification. This is good news for all people. Spong is a dangerous false teacher and to call him a Christian is a mockery of the biblical and historic Christian faith.
@@wilwelch258 and where, exactly, did the Apostles make this claim for the historicity of anything. I am curious. Can you offer a citation?
@@cbergland yes :) Acts 10 (sermon of St. Peter)
1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 2 Peter 1:16
Besides the original accounst of the resurrection are very simple and have little to no embellishment. Besides, why would they make the first and most important witnesses women?
@@wilwelch258 Yes
This guy is roasting in hell right now!
It's fascinating to me that if I depress the "thumb's down" for a comment I don't agree with, it isn't activated yet if I do the opposite it is recorded. Who's is behind that and what is it about?
Jesus Christ died for our sins and I can feel his presence in me. I rather be sure then not..
I hope he got right with God and accepted Jesus as his savior before he passed away.
"I was not punished because you were bad "
~ Jesus
فيه ترجمه او تفصيل ما قاله
This blasphemy is not worth translating.
Beautiful, thank you so much :) Amen
1 John 3:5
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Thanks
Jose Jr Ababat
What is the evidence that circumcision, kosher diet and sabbath observance were all instituted during the Babylonian exile? And why does Bishop Spong say circumcision was "re-instituted"? Does he think it was practiced by Jews and then abandoned?
Why is this guy even at the pulpit? He has stated several times that he does not believe the Bible is the Word of God! He is not a Christian by any definition of the word and he should not be allowed to speak in any Christian venue whatsoever! Is that what has become of our churches?
Amen brother,you are right,this an is a heretic and an apostate.
nce again, I consider your comment a high honor! Thank you! I want to be remembered as a man of God who believed the Word of God is His final authority for Morals and ethics. Jesus wasn't kidding when He wondered if there would be faith on the planet at His return!
Amen brother,Jesus is not what they make out of Him.
marpa If the Word of God was given to men to be a testament to his commandments, why are there so many discrepancies? Why didn't God care about preserving his word as much as He cares about spreading it?
Thank you for replying here. I think you're mistaking something here... The Word of God is a testament to who Jesus is. He is the fulfillment of Scriptures. As for the preservation of His Word, He did a fine job. The so called contradictions are all easily explained if you truly want to know.
The "Episcopal Church". Nuff said!
He gave his life/soul in the garden of gasthemene. That was the true crucifixion. Just like we all must do if we want to live. No one can do that for you.
The atoning death of Jesus is at the core of the Christian faith, and this bishop flatly rejects it. What kind of church is this?
2000sDigitalBoy It's called being a Liberal!
There are different strains of theology which developed over time. Christianity is a smorgasbord of ideas. Not everyone accepts substitionary atonement, the virgin birth, and all kinds of other things. You kind of have to look up the history of this denomination and this congregation to understand where they're coming from.
@2000sDigitalBoy Spong is trying to bring Christianity into the 21st century. Granted, obviously the vast majority of Christian teaching cannot survive.
You need to sit and meditate on why a god would want anyone to suffer.
Jesus Christ died for our sins.
This person should not be in the pulpit. He doesn't represent biblical Christianity in any way shape or form. Peter, John, Paul and Jesus spoke about these kind of people in the new testament.Spong should have the honesty to come out and say , "I am a religious person who believes in a god." His scholarship on the gospel of John is sadly misrepresented.
Randy Pacchioli
"Jesus Christ died for our sins." Just to be clear, do you believe Jesus's death was a substitutionary atonement?
Sammy Skeptic Yes I do. And the scriptures tell us that Christ died for our sins.
Randy Pacchioli Does Mosaic sacrificial law support the idea of substitutionary atonement? Is there anything in the OT regarding what God said or did that would lead you to believe that God solution for sin would involve the killing of His own son?
Sammy Skeptic Indeed. Scripture foretold of the coming of the Messiah. Daniel 9 :24-27 is one of many prophecies concerning Messiah.
10 minutes in...redemption of sinners (the fallen) have no place in John's gospel?? What perverted new Bible version does this guy read?
JN. 1:29....behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
JN. 3:15 - 19....Jesus speaks of the Cross as the remedy for those who otherwise will perish, who are under God's condemnation.
These are in just the first 3 chapters
7:08
JAMES 1:14, 26
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
1 CORINTHIANS 3:18-20
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
PROVERBS 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
PSALMS 9:15-17
15 The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.
16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
I love the comments, this will stir up the old cross huggers.
Salvation is mediated through the cross of Christ. There is NO salvation in Christ without the cross, my friend.
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
thank you thank you so much for the truth i always knew deep inside but religion got in the way Kathleen
You still lost three years now?
Anathema!
Church that is culturally relevant, fighting for justice in behalf of the disadvantaged, righteousness in it's hand, lacking any power of God.
What in blazes are you trying to say In English??? Making a snide point? Hate the guy? Just say it,,, quit trying to be cute!
Redefining the Historic Christian faith. Such blasphemy against our Lord.
He doesn't sound like I imagined when I first started reading his works way back in grade 11. But he's a great and brilliant man nevertheless.
Pump up the volume please
“Marginalized.” Code word for wanting to live comfortably in sin and defiance.
John Lemings Marginalized = oppressed, underprivileged, the minority either socially, religiously, educationally, racially, and relationally. Before you equate marginalization with wanting to live in sin, I encourage you to actually look at the definition to which the word refers. Would you not agree that Jesus’ entire ministry was to those who would fit that definition? The only people Jesus withdrew from were those who thought they were God’s favorites because they were following the law. His harshest words were for legalistic letter of the law keepers who looked down their noses at the less than, the whore, the gentile, the prisoner...do not get that twisted in your religious arrogance and moral superiority.
@@shanemontgomery1358 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a]will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[b] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6: 9-11
Do you know that bible is your idol and all you own for a relationship with God is a book with many gospels not included. A book the Catholic Church put together for you.
Men who practice homosexuality is not even in all translations. It was added into the ESV translation by man.
A HELLBOUND REPROBATE.
+Margie Spiritdragon YOUR HELL IS THAT OF FLUFF 'N' STUFF - PERHAPS YOU SHOULD CHECK YOUR TRAVEL GUIDE FOR THE FACTS.
9:54 - Totally false:
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This is complete heresy!!!!!
LIES...LIES...LIES.
thanks for that
Amen.
What an irrelevant discussion to be engaged in. Whether Jesus die for our sins or not. It looks to me more of an issue for some progressive Christians and I consider myself one however I do not have a problem with the doctrine of atonement nevertheless Christians like Spong and others travel around the world in a crusade attempting to emancipate those who embrace such doctrine. There are more important issues for the church now to be debating nevertheless historical and literal criticism on the scriptures offers the opportunity of full attendance forums a solid springboard to sell books. I wonder if Bishop Spong considers anything he has done in his life especially from a financial or investment perspective a sin or just the reality of the world he lives in. Sin or life I do not care but Christ came to either save us or to give us life in abundance.
if jesus didnt die for our sins-then we are all in trouble. this is real blasphemy.
1 JOHN 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
HEBREWS 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 PETER 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
PSALMS 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
ISAIAH 25:7-8
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken .
Have you understood a word he says!!!!!!! John is not CHRIST!!!!!! So what John says is NOT the Divine Word of our Lord.
Speaks not according to the word of God. A man made religion which is full of lies and completely faithless. He is lacking the spirit of Christ, and has no spiritual wisdom or understanding. The only way to God the Father is through and in Christ, the only begotten Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. Corruption cannot put on incorruption and we need our Savior Jesus Christ.
It's a real shame that a man of the cloth denies something as basic and fundamental as the Atonement.
More than shame, it's blasphemous and heresy
I think you’ve failed to understand his message. Your understanding of God a little shallow perhaps.
Hes actually correct. If Jesus paid the debt for all our sins then he would still be dead. As thats the price.
You must crucify your own flesh so you can arise to new life. It was metaphor.
As a Mormon raised woman, I appreciate his story about the children of lesbians going into a Mormon church, but I wish instead of threatening to beat the 14 wives, they had threatened to beat the leaders who commanded 14 women to be married to the same man. The women might be getting beaten at home already.
Hes made a deal with the devil!
Cure yourself
So typical of Christians. Judging and condemning. Who gives you the right to judge him and make such a disparaging comment? Pointing out the splinter in his eye but disregarding the beam in your own eye. If there were a devil, that would be you.
@@cmk1964 Very nice use of scripture there. I applaud you
All things taught in scripture have to do with the present
No but ok
Seems that people have a problem with believing sin exists these days. One definition of sin is "Anyone who knows the good she should do but does not do it, sins."
Sin is not just about making mistakes but its about not standing up for what is right at the appropriate time, its about your silence when people are doing terrible things to others that you know about but you do nothing because you fear for yourself more than others. You love your job/money more than the truth, you love your own life more than that of others. Jesus said "Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it but anyone who loses his life for my sake and the gospel will save it"
A lot of people are flocking around people like Spong to hide their own guilty consciences. Why not confess your sins to God and seek his face and ask Him to give you strength, rather than trying to make justification for sinning. Jesus said "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for you shall be filled.
You are just spouting dogma and modern educated people want authenticity
Amen
anastasia: If we want tot alk about sin--let´s talk about Christians condoning slavery and segregation, mysogyny, women hating!
How can there be any hope in Spong's gospel? It is nothing more than Christianized platitudes robbed of meaning. Bishop Spong did nothing more than project his own ideas and prejudices onto Jesus.
Christians: why I left Jesus and told him to get lost.
Much learning hath made thee mad.
Ever heard about, ever learning and NEVER able to come to the TRUTH. 2 TIMOTHY 3:7. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6.
I like Bishop Spong I have read several of his books, and listen to him whenever I can because his ideas are radical, thought provoking and unifying. Having said that, he has gutted the fish, and when you do that the fish remains a dead, empty, shell, that certainly no longer swims. I am not a Christian, but if I were I would struggle to see the point, really. Mysticism is mysticism and really doesn't require a Bishop's robe at all. He sounds more like a Unitarian than an Anglican, more like a non-believer than a believer, and more like a spiritualist than a rationalist. Having said all that, he has my respect for setting down homophobia, racism, outmoded thinking, and dark mindedness.
I studied some of his work but still perplexed since his teachings contradict the Bible!! Either St. Paul and the apostels got it wrong and wasted years in falshood or this man was the only one who got it right in the entire Christian history not to mention all churches, theologians throughout the ages, and schoolars. Does that even make sense?!! St. Paul warned of "the false teachers" and yes some might have the best of intentions but still not right.
I may be old fashioned but I dislike the way the congregation applauds after, and during the sermon. The sermon is about the word of God, not a performance by the preacher. It's a pity Mr Spong didn't start with one of the traditional opening sentences for a sermon (May I speak in the name of, etc etc) which might have stressed this fact a bit more.
I agree with you...but it's John Shelby Spong so he's not going to do things like that lol
I guess this is not Christianity anymore. If you strip everything away from the faith as Spong does, you end up with something completely different than what it has been before.
One word , Heresy.
According to your interpretation of ancient literature you read in a different language, in a different culture, in a different time. You are confusing your own opinion with what God wants us to believe.
From a traditional Calvinist view of Orthodox Christian theology I am saying what i am convinced that this sermon is,Heresy. He clearly said that Christ did not die for our sin's.What else needs to be said but Heresy.Gross, base heresy.Also if you disagree your a bigot and a dumb racist.... nice touch.
GOODTAGO Calvinism is only 400 years old. If there would ever be a heresy, it would be that. Don't you think it is strange NO ONE ever believed the tenets of Calvinism before 1600? Quite ballsy to call anyone a heretic upon that premise.
Heresy, from the Greek, means roughly "that which is chosen." The pejorative use to which that word is accustomed, has taken the meaning of blasphemy, the profaning of God. If your idea of blasphemy, includes choosing to believe the interpretation of the sacred text that seems best and truest to you, then you set man-made convention and tradition up as God.
A heresy may have far more truth than those who condemn it to the stake and the rack, as history tells.
I tried, I warned you in love. Now it's 2 Corinthians 6:17. Good luck with your fancy new prophet I'll stand with mine, Jesus.
John 1:29 Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. I am the way the truth and the life....NO man comes to the Father, except by me. To this end was I born and for this cause came I into the world to bear witness of the truth. The truth is that in which there is NO fault. I find no fault in Him. Jn 18:38. Dr. Spong needs to internalize the fact that it was the tax collector, the publican who recognizing his own sins and unworthiness, cried out for mercy and went home, justified. The cocky pharisee left the same way as he came, only with a few more sins added to his report card and for which he will one day be brought to judgement. Spong, needs to recognize that he CANNOT cherrypick a piece of the text of John to paint the whole book of John. On the cross, Christ was glorified. But the story does NOT end there. One must remember the purpose of the giving.......that whosoever believes in him, should not perish but instead, have eternal life and not eternal hell.
Total rubbish
Blake Delaney Simpletons only read the headline.
heresy. 1 Corinthians 15:3 "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,".
La personna che pecca e' quella che morirà, il figlio non pagherà per l' inquita'del padre,e il padre non pagherà per l" inquita' del figlio ...ez 18 20
Ci sono molte contradizioni dei 4 vangeli durante la Pasqua e durante la resurrezione ,marco 14 50 ci dice quanto sono arrivati i soldati per arrestare Gesu' tutti i discepoli scapati
The Holy Spirit is so powerful, influential, and greatly mysterious in Her doings that to some an action-- better yet a speaker-- can appear as a Light Bearer and to another the same person can appear to be the Anti-Christ. Both observers in the audience can have equal attainment of information or experience or both and yet fall into the dualism of either side. Even more profound, those who support or oppose the speaker ultimately reveal and fulfill the unfolding of our GOD.
I for one appreciate John Shelby Spong, although I do not subscribe to 100% of his theological conclusions. Nevertheless, he is a Truth Seeker. He is a Gnostic Christian in its truest form.
Paul forbade women from teaching in the church and having authority of men. If the Holy Spirit is female how does that work exactly? Stop clowning with scripture.
Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit with the masculine pronoun. Do you know better than Jesus? Arrogant muppet!
@@djanchovy One of the most popular verses that people used to keep women as second class citizens
@@TuxKamen Unilateral equality between men and women is not biblical. Feminism is a Jewish fable. Titus 1:14 warns against listening to Jewish fables such as Jesus being one of them or that Edomite Jews are Israel or their holocaust fable described as whining about "being impoverished" in Malachi 1:4. Stop clowning with scripture.
He exonerates the Father of sadism and child abuse, perhaps. I'm not sure he shows that the Son is not a masochist.