Years ago, an alum from my highschool published a book about a student being groomed by her teacher. The media slammed her for it, saying she had no right to speak for survivors, and even comparing her book to the story of another author, claiming she plagiarized it. Eventually, she was forced to admit that this book was semi-autobiographical, and she was actually a victim of her own teacher. She was forced to reveal her trauma when she wasn't ready to. Good for you for admitting you were wrong. So many journalists force writers to reveal deeply personal information about themselves, and then move on like they didn't just cause immense harm to someone.
I remember the incident you're talking about! I felt so bad for her, I can't imagine having to issue that kind of public statement. That story, and the story behind this video, actually really changed the way I thought about the way we talk about "own voices". Sometimes a demand for sensitivity or authenticity or accuracy can turn into an invasion of creator privacy if we're not careful.
Alex Claremont-Diaz summed it up pretty well for me "The forced conformity of the closet cannot be answered with the forced conformity in coming out of it"
A lot of these "queerbaiting" accusations also feel icky to me because of what they use as so called evidence. Like, in Harry Style's instance, dressing femininely or things like that. Sometimes we queer people have a lot of growing to do ourselves in regards to gender norms. A man can be feminine and show affection to other men without being queer. A woman can be masculine and show affection to other women without being queer. None of those things are inherently queerbaiting. If we want to normalize acceptance of gender nonconformity we have to be okay with straight people doing these things too
This. Even if Harry was 100% straight, how is him dressing fem queerbaiting? He's expressing himself in a way that gives him joy. Suggesting he's trying to look 'gay' by dressing femme is just continuing the gender norms of western society. Not to mention playing into stereotypes of queerness too. Us queers should be the last batch of people continuing the shitty "oh, this guy likes make up? Must be a homo, lollllll"
I see a lot of this coming from young people so I try to not get too bent out of shape over this. I'll be 40 soon and I'm trying very hard to not turn into the middle aged cranky guy who flips out and accuses the kids of "dragging us backward with their 'nonsense'". LGBTQ+ acceptance has made major moves in the few short years I've been alive, and I totally understand and empathize with the shitshow Gen Z is dealing with and the massive trauma it's causing. I understand the fear, anxiety, and dread they feel and I also understand why they react the way they do to certain things. But young people experience the world eventually, they grow and mature, and I'm really excited to see them get their hands on power. Gen Z is going to do amazing things; they're amazing people who are kind, empathetic, and extremely concerned about the well-being of others. So what if right now they're a little loud? They have to be, actually.
oh palease, a lot of this is predictable, and we can try to get others to act better without this stupid finger pointing and looking down upon. People dont even really care, they care enough to sound superior in the comments and then they go on with their lives. Also - 99% of the time, when it quakes like a duck. Of course, random online mob of people will sometimes get it wrong. this need for perfection is gross. you will never obtain, and no one can obtain for you. guess what, a movement for something good sometimes does something bad. Learn from it, don't use it as an excuse to brow beat and tell those OTHER gays how they are not GAYING it correctly.
Contrapoints latest video on romance novels and power dynamics of gender touches a bit on this very briefly. A lot of straight women like gay romance/porn/erotica, not because they're fetishizing gay men, but because society doesn't give women a lot of ways to imagine sexual relationships without coercive gender dynamics. Since women are expected to identify with male characters in a way men are never expected to identify with female characters, it's a just hop skip and a jump for women writing romance fantasies to genderswap their self-insert character to sidestep the misogyny of gender roles.
I do appreciate that Natalie did that and I hope people listen to her finally, because women have been trying to explain that for as long as I have been reading m/m fic, and it's been about 20 years.
remembering how hbomberguy talked about how james somerton was really rude to becky albertelli in his videos and how james was one of those who called her a "straight woman appropriating gay boys"... i am so glad that she stood up for herself and is here speaking to you, matt :)
@@AoiUsagiOtokoespecially toward bisexual women. sometimes it felt like he hated bi women more than straight women. misogyny in any capacity is bad, but if he's championing "centering queer ppl" why leave out bisexual women? it's called lgBt for gods sake.
Honestly as a bi man that had a rough experience in high school and primary school I don't want every story about being gay or being bi or whatever being a spiral of horrific homophobia filled mess that has thoughts about internalised homophobia and queer suffering like its fine to have serious story's but can we just enjoy some queer stories that aren't about all that it's just people in love can we please just have some stories like that without a "well this isn't realistic to the queer experience" like don't claim everyone's experience is pure suffering like mine was let's build a society where queer isn't associated with intense homophobia and bigotry like come on
In my observation, the queer people obsessed with stories about suffering, loneliness, and misery are usually the ones accusing anyone who doesn't want to be miserable of being straight.
Idk if it’s your taste but danmei does a great job at having queer stories that don’t revolve around homophobia. I mean obviously it exists in the universe but the main conflict is almost never tied to that. For example a very famous one the MC suffers but not because he’s a closet bi man(he still is don’t get me wrong) , it’s because his powers are unconventional and he stood up for war refugees and other mostly political affairs. The main conflict would still happen even if he was straight.There’s still some issues and danmei is not perfect by any means, but for the most part I can rest in peace that the conflict would never be about their queer identity.
@@frozentargaryen4736 Are you talking about Mo Dao Zu Shi? Also Thousand Autumns, it is as "manly" as it gets. Fights after fights. Politics and philosophy. One of my favorite works of fiction across all genres.
@@Kkttrr31643 yes it’s Mo Dao Zu shi. I haven’t started Thousand Autumms yet but I own all the books that are out.There’s probably more but the main danmei author I know is a man is Fei Tian.
As a person from a country that bans and persecutes LGBTQ+ content and it's creators, I'm shocked and disgusted listening to this. Like... bullying the author while being a part of the LGBTQ+ community...give it a rest, homophobes need something to do, leave it to them.
Except this didnt happen in your country and the resuly was realyl quite different. Let's stay in reality, and not your mind where this same thing happens where you live or lived and there were aditional consequences (and likely in that country, the outing was done by the bigots).
@@xBINARYGODxwow, I have never been so ashamed by a comment from one queer person to another. The dismissal you state of real problems queer people (who get persecuted and killed) face elsewhere to entertain your first world problem debate about queer-baiting is nauseating. Queer visibility in media is important and there are queerbaiting creators like Mario Adrion who make a living of this and don’t get any heat, so say thank you for showing some appreciation and gratitude and for directing your criticism where it’s due.
@@xBINARYGODx people are imprisoned and tortured by the government if they express their queer identity. This is my reality. Bullying an author of lgbtq+ books for their identity while being queer yourself is bizarre to me. If a book is shitty - criticise it, not the author for daring to write it. Otherwise you're doing the same thing as bigots.
I was in the midst of coming out when Love Simon was released. Hearing Jennifer Garner's character affirm and accept Simon with "you get to breathe again" was lifechanging to me. it helped me with the language I needed when i came out to my parents just a few weeks later. It was comforting and felt like a warm hug. Yeah Love Simon isn't perfect but it was needed, even for a depressed and closeted 22 year old. How Becky Albertalli was treated in that aftermath under the guise of "queerbaiting" was so disheartening. Using literary or media criticism to go after people in queer media for not being out is such a backwards notion.
@@Newton-ReutherI mean it don't know if it is "overwhelmingly positive" but it definitely set in a high school that is more open minded and homophobic people are an outlier. I think the book was more balanced take of "it is safer to be out than it would be ten years ago but we're still in Georgia." It felt realistic to a more Gen Z audience than me, who grew up in a small town in the 00's where being out made you a target.
@hanhantap I guess I'm just concerned (perhaps irrationally so) that in all the optimistic "it's much easier to be a gay kid now than it was 10-20 years ago," that people fail to recognize that there are still a lot of places that are awful for queer kids. But obviously, that topic is not going to get widespread and mainstream support when depicted in film/TV
@@Newton-Reuther But we can have both. We can acknowledge that the world still sucks for queer people in a lot of places, but still have stories that aren't weighed down by it.
Andre Aciman, author of Call Me By Your Name, is a straight, married man, and nobody ever gave him grief for being straight or "queerbaiting" in his book. But he's a man and his book had explicit sex in it, so it gets a pass... (Yes there are other issues in the book, but--rightfully--nobody claims "queerbaiting.")
The unforgivable part of that book was when the little twink wanted to look at his boyfriend’s turds in the bowl so “there would be nothing secret between them”. JAIL, MR ACIMAN. JAIL!
This just made me realise that "Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda" did not even have a single sex scene in it and yet Becky was accused of it being her sexual fantasy. Plenty of adults write about teens having sex, but it's her who gets accused of that when she the book was not even very sexual at all!
I do remember it being a very small amount of conversation compared to the entire conversation about the book and compared to what Becky had to go through. I feel like with Call Me By Your Name any conversation questioning the sexuality of the author got shut down fast
I'm still convinced that left's second worst enemy is always ourselves. It's like we can't focus on the real problems we face. I feel so bad for Becky. Much love queen!
In polish leftist world. There is sentence about that phenomen of the bigest leftist person enemy is the other leftist, that you could translate to: leftist being leftist to leftist
“The closet is not a safe place to be anymore” has deeply moved me as a comment. It really captures the paralysis that you feel while questioning gender or sexuality. Some of the shields that I use to give space for myself to explore gender are now seen as incriminating to a loud group of people
really reminds me of the tumblr meme ""we need weirder queers" you can't even handle aces" it basically applies to anyone beyond the LG part of the acronym honestly, nevermind people still figuring themselves out or gnc and other queer adjacent folk.
I think the critisism was/is that its misrepresenting gay people to some degree to an enourmous straight mainstream audience. I think people should have the guts and say that that critisism regardless of the authors Personal background but then again it is very weird to tell a queer person that the story they wrote about coming out isn't good or acurate.
I think there is still something to be said about someone from a majority trying to speak for a minority (not just the LGBT+ minority) and the possible guidelines they might need in order to do it respectfully. It's not necessarily impossible: an author can, for example, consult the people they want to talk about in order to be, at the very least, not offensive. This conversation is just more complicated than "always good" and "always bad".
The most heard thing I have heard back in the day was about women writing gay male stories much more than men writing gay male stories. The book came out when „own voices“ books were the trend
I think I was 14 or so when I read Simon vs the homo sapiens agenda and 16 when I watched the movie, and I never really got the criticism of it being an unrealistic portrayal of queerness, bc it was pretty similar to the experience I had. my family is supportive, my friends are supportive (and most of them are queer too), I was never persecuted at school for being queer or anything like that, and when I got to college I just told ppl right away that I wasn’t straight. there was never any suffering intertwined with my queer identity, i had other queer ppl in my family that were already out and it was always something that i saw as a possibility, even before I started to actually question my sexuality. tbh, I much more relate to an experience like simon’s in love Simon or nick’s experience in heartstopper, which ppl always accuse of being “queer media for straight ppl” or of being “sanitized versions of the queer experience”, than to any other media in which queer people are constantly suffering
I know I’m probably a minority amongst queer ppl and it’s really a shame that so many ppl have had (or still have) to suffer because of their identity or sexuality, but I’m still glad that I got a piece of media like love Simon that I could relate when I was younger
I'm glad your experiences have been so positive :) Plus, I imagine positive depictions like in Simon or Heartstopper could also be healing in a way for people from less supportive backgrounds. I loved the scene where Nick comes out to his mum, his nervousness and her being so very chill about it ❤
I’ve had a weird inverse experience with queerphobia that’s kind of illuminating. No one hated on queer identities around me, let alone wanted ME to try being cis/het when I was growing up. It was an utter nonissue. Then later on (after relocating to a more conservative area of the country) I urgently needed to work on some unrelated childhood trauma, but could only find therapists who wanted to problematize my queerness and would essentially call me a liar for trying to talk about my real experiences instead. I think that people who are obsessed with a monolithic queer suffering story are the second most dangerous tier of phobes fighting against our survival and thriving.
@@twitchycoopark they are. I read so many people who said they could live teenage queer experience they never had! It's so amazing! Sometimes even actors do this (if they also happened to be queer)! Heal through the show/movie because they just like us have similar experiences and lack of representation
This. I came out as bi (leaning lesbian) to my mom when I was 13 and she was like: "Yeah, I had a feeling." And that was the end of it. She didn't make a big deal out of it at all, but she has been supportive when I've needed it. My dad made that weird Lucifer comment: "Oh you like girls? So do I! We have so much in common!" But he's never not been accepting of it. o-o And whenever I've told friends they have never treated me badly or differently for it, either. I was bullied as a child, but that was probably more related to me being autistic and thus visibly "weird" than with my sexuality. So eh, I don't find it that unrealistic at all. Even my grandma is super open minded about those kinds of things.
I remember 10-15 years ago when straight actors often won Oscars for playing gay roles while gay actors couldn't be out and get cast in those same roles. The impulse to fight queerbaiting makes sense in that context, but I think we've moved beyond it. If someone thinks pretending to be queer will make their life easier, go for it! 🤣
There's the other side of it, where the few actors who were out were almost always pigeonholed into playing supporting gay roles, and so that kept them from having the kind of star power that would attract mainstream (straight) audiences to Oscarbait movies, so they didn't get cast in those roles, and thus kept anybody who was in the closet from wanting to come out.
I dunno how far past it we are. There’s an upcoming gay historical movie with Josh O’Connor (God’s Own Country) and Paul Mescal (All of us Strangers). It’ll be the second gay lead role for each of them. Nicholas Galatzine from Red White & Royal Blue just did a tv show with Julianne Moore where he was playing gay again. There are gay actors in their 20s but they’re not getting those roles. They’re playing the gay best friend in an ensemble.
I think the economic harm of appropriation is very fair to go after. I don't actually know whether a hypothetical out gay writer, writing a book like that, would be less likely to be published than anybody else, in the same way that out gay actors faced (or still face) problems being hired for gay roles. Regardless of that, the bullying of straight or straight-passing people for simply wanting to write on gay topics has got to stop.
@@BlueCyann it helps to know why the straights are being bullied though. And it’s because of frustration over how often we can see that they are getting opportunities that you would think would go to gay people but so often don’t.
We gotta stop searching for reasons to tear each other down as queer people. When Love Simon came out I was a mostly closeted lesbian dealing with a lot of fear and shame. Seeing that movie was profoundly comforting. It isn't perfect but nothing is... I'm so glad it exists.
If I remember correctly, Rowan Ellis has a video where she talks about her coming out journey and apparently it was pretty similar, too. So no, you're definitely not alone :D
I really enjoy Love, Simon. I understand it cuts out a lot of what us queer people can and do face, but it's nice to have a coming of age rom-com that just so happens to be gay.
@@yerinbaekscandlelightand we don’t always want to see those stories sometimes we just want fun stories. It’s like when Black people say they don’t just wanna see movies where the Black person is suffering something you just want for me to comedy it just happens to be inclusive of your community.
@@mbsiren Yeah, like how lots of coming of age comedies don't feature the worst of what teens go through on the daily. It's nice to have media out there you like, that represents you, without being a miserable watching experience lol.
@@fortetuono4068 exactly like would some stories benefit from including more queer culture yes but that doesn’t mean it only has to be about discrimination and the sort. We sometimes want an escape
Matt, you briefly mentioned Ace people (in the context of them being included in the LGBTQ umbrella-question mark). I wonder if you'd ever consider exploring this in a future episode. We have little to no media representation, no legal protection against discrimination (unless considered queer). Very few of us really come out.
@@tankiegirl oh gosh i don't know... Maybe the fact that everyone calls you "weird" if you don't have sexual feelings/don't feel the same sexual attraction as them? The fact that Ace characters are portrayed as villains, psychopaths, weirdos, social outsiders on TV? Maybe the life long pressure to find a partner? Hmmm... Maybe all of those and so much more? And before you come at me with the "but that's not legal discrimination"... It might not be illegal to choose not to have sexual partners, but it sure as hell signs you up for societal discriminations. And we haven't even touched on discrimination against people with disabilities... Because you know, we are much more likely to be taken advantage of, because "disabled people are all ace" anyway. Yes these are stereotypes, but they impact us on a daily level. Maybe all of you do some research, before you deny ace people a platform.
It feels like there's this paradox, where people have been and continue to be demanding more queer respresentation in media, while rejecting anything created by someone who is not explicitly queer. Yes, platforming marginalized voices is a valuable and important thing. But if we want queer representation, why should we say it must only be created by queer people? As many people are already saying - nobody should be forced to reveal their personal information to show that they are "qualified" to write on a subject. Not to mention, queer creators are also subject to immense scrutiny and criticism in their own depictions.
Feeling like an interloper in your own community and deferring to what other people say about your lived experience? That's the bi experience right there
I really appreciate you for making this episode Matt! Being a bi woman, you have to deal with a lot of biphobia and misogyny, mostly from cishet people but also from your own community. It's sort of a joke in online queer conversations that bi women in particular take up a lot of space, and I do think it's important to have self awareness about one's place in the world, but a lot of time we're asked to make a joke of our experiences. Not every lighthearted joke at bi women's expense is biphobia, but I've realized there's sort of a point where you have to put your foot down and stand up for yourself and your identity. I can relate to the idea of feeling "prickly," when people joke that biphobia doesn't exist or is inconsequential. The rates of DV against bi women certainly aren't inconsequential to me! I think it's important to ask ourselves: at what point can we stop laughing at ourselves? The queerphobia and misogyny I've faced in my life is very real, and I'd say I'm at a point in my life where I know my boundaries and I feel comfortable asking other queer people to draw a line where we stop laughing
real. fellow bi woman here and i feel like some queer ppl esp online have a really comfortable time making jabs at bi women and it bothers me. i get most are meant to be lighthearted but it doesnt change the fact that those jokes kinda contribute to the casual biphobia running around in certain online queer spaces
@@oppi-hop Maybe it's because of the presumption that bi women can simply escape from homophobia by living an essentially straight lifestyle, plus the perception among some queer men that anti-woman homophobia is milder than anti-man homophobia? I'm not saying that's the truth of bi womens' experiences, but it is certainly how I've personally, anecdotally heard bi women discussed in queer spaces. As a gay person I can relate to having a sort of idealized notion of bi and by extension straight people being able to simply have fulfilling relationships without being otherized by people extraneous to that relationship for it, but that's obviously ignoring a lot of stigmatization that bi people and especially bi women can face within their own relationships.
Yup. Biphobia and misogyny are rampant in queer spaces, but we get gaslit and told we have "bi privilege." Meanwhile, bisexuals have higher suicide rates than gays and lesbians. But obviously we're just doing it for the attention 🙄 Call me jaded, but I gave up on being accepted by my own community, and when I talk about my sexuality I expect exactly as much casual bigotry from fellow queers as I do from straights.
That’s so insane to insinuate that bi women take up a lot of space in queer spaces, online or in real life, when from my perspective it’s usually the opposite? I’d say in general bi people make themselves smaller to avoid being ridiculed and ostracized in both cishet and queer spaces. And saying that a woman is “taking up too much space” is just basic misogyny anyway smh
It's telling that so much of the discourse on this is about _profiting_ from identity. American culture has degraded so far into late-stage capitalism that everything _must_ be commodified, especially your identity. We can't just be people, we have to be a _brand._ It's another tragic example of the profit motive making everything worse. Without capitalism, this problem would be minor and personal, assuming it was even a problem at all.
I hate that kit conner was forced out and I'm sorry if this is a controversial take but if your a starting out actor you take any role you can get gay or straight it's just the nature of the industry we shouldn't be taking our anger out on the Actor who's just doing there job
I truly don’t understand the psychology of taking a bisexual role in a beloved graphic novel adaptation and then being so private and precious about you personally being bi. That whole cast went on a huge Netflix press tour complete with every goofy Buzzfeed-style interview and he was just gonna not be openly bi that whole time? 🤨 He shouldn’t have even auditioned if he was gonna do that. Sends the message to young people that there’s something wrong with being queer that it has to be some deep dark secret even for someone in an affirming show.
@@19031589 you do not turn down roles when your a starting out actor I don't know what you think hollywood is like but it's not la la land and you are not intitled to know an actors sexuality sorry for being the one to tell you that
@@19031589 jesus.. being in the closet and afraid of coming out doesn't mean you think your secret is somehow dark and dirty. try opening your mind a little bit. he did not owe coming out to anyone.
@@19031589 But then would you expect a teenager (who already played the younger version of an iconic gay man before he was even old enough to know his own sexuality) to necessarily foresee all that? He was, and still is, very young.
@@19031589 bro one actors are not entitled to give you any information about themselves that they don't want you to know there job is to act and promote the film/series they are doing 2 makeing gay roles exclusive to only one gay actors excludes actors that are in the closet from auditioning for roles that will allow them to come out in there own time and 3 when you are starting out as an actor in hollywood you take whatever role you can get
my (non) understaning of bisexuality as a bisexual was something like: well i get the gay ppl who arent bisexual (love them, my ppl, am a huge ally etc), but whats the with straight people who arent bisexual, whats the deal, doesnt seem plausible, after all as a sTrAiGht pErSon mYsELf etc etc
This is too real! I used to say things like "as a sTrAiGhT person" (my mates would roll their eyes, they knew years before I did) but I just thought "this is what normal is" and since most people seem to be straight, that's probably how they all think too so this is a totally heterosexual feeling... when I was depressed being separated from a girl I was so obviously in love with (but no we were best friends so this is normal). Having that heterosexual component to your attraction, especially as a femme person, really blurs the full scope of your sexuality and as someone with so many queer friends, I was often so suspicious that my "potential bisexuality" was just my mind tricking me to fit in with my group. There's a murkiness to bisexuality and learning about "comphet" from lesbians helped me accept it. In hindsight, the mental gymnastics I did is ridiculous and plain as day.
What a great talk. I used to take part in this type of discourse, retweeting posts talking about Harry Styles "queerbaiting" and the like. I think what really opened my eyes was the whole Kit Connor situation. Matt talked about how weird it is to demand answers about a teenager's sexuality, and of course it is weird, but I think him being a teenager is what got so many people to reconsider their stances.
i enjoy love simon because it kind of reflects my own experience with amazing supportive parents and friends. i know i was so lucky but it’s nice to have stories that aren’t all about the hardships queer people face, stories that give us some hope and optimism! and also as a bi woman, i’m so glad you guys talked about the different celebs that have dealt with what is honestly just biphobia to me. unfortunately some people are so wrapped up in questioning other people’s sexualities that anything they deem as at all “straight” erases their queerness. i’m a bi woman in a relationship with a man, i know the feeling of being unwelcome because i have a “straight” relationship. the biphobia in the community is genuinely heartbreaking and horrible
I have always felt extremely uncomfortable by how our community started applying the concept of queerbaiting to real people. It feels so closeminded and weird and causes people to come out extremely publically before they are ready OR an ally to stop creating positive queer content at all out of fear. I don't think turning inwards and rejecting otherwise thoughtful and respectful representation because the author, actor or whoever is straight, is going to help us in the long run. Of course a gay person can tell a gay story more personally and authentically than a straight person, that applies to literally _all_ storytelling. I think, however, that it is a good thing that we as humans are able to use empathy and try putting ourselves into someone else's shoes and tell an important story, as long as you don't put the actual people you are portraying down or speak over them. We need allies. We need people to be able to break gender roles and express themselves without it automatically meaning they are queer and having to disclose their private life. Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I hope I got my point across. I'm just a lesbian who wishes we were all a bit more friendly to each other.
Same. I was so vocal about defending queer people (gay, bisexual, trans, etc), helped start my school's GSA, and kissing my girlffriends in order "to destigmatize" in the early 2000s as an "ally". Years later, surprise! I'm complexly queer as fuck and oh also trans, lmao.
reminds me of the time I said “oh I don’t really think about my gender” when talking about trans identities and my trans housemate (correctly) pointing out that it was probably a sign I was not trans
The "Gay-Straight Alliance" clubs we had when I was in high school were actually a genius cover for kids who weren't out yet to be involved but still have the deniability of "I'm just here to support my queer friends". Looking back as an adult there is definitely a teen-ally-to-adult-queer pipeline. 😄
This phenomenon reminds me a lot of the James Somerton situation--a lot of bi women and femmes being forced out of the closet and harassed by other queer people including cis queer men. Let me make it clear that I am NOT comparing Matt to James AT ALL 😭 not in a million years. More so that James's blatant misogyny in his queer analysis was widely ignored and I think it's so important to confront that element of these conversations
I think the fact that Matt is here admitting he made a mistake speaks a lot to his character. Whereas Somerton just completely refused to ever mention her or her work again (and lied about why!) after he was called out.
@@beckyalbertalli1955 I saw your post on the hbomberguy subreddit with the full context of that conversation, and I still cannot get over what a coward that man was to you.
As someone who was subscribed to him I kind of barely noticed the weird little comments he made until after he was called out. And now I feel kinda bad about it.
@@jazmineraymond7495 I think they're very normalized, unfortunately. Oh, appropriating straight white women again, okay. What's next on the actual topic. Easy to go in one ear and out the other.
i never read the book ‘Love, Simon’ but i watched the movie when i realised i’m queer. i loved it immediately and it helped me came out to a friend. i was in a long distance relationship with a girl at the time so i felt really close to Simon and his relationship with ‘Blue’. it used to be one of my comfort movies but some years later i realised the hate towards this movie, i didn’t even understand why but to avoid criticism i stopped feeling so close to it. i felt like i was the only queer person to love it. i felt wrong, again. but i really enjoyed it and i wanted to thank u becky for writing it. ‘Love, Simon’ helped me. it’s really strange how other people’s opinion can destroy the things you enjoy.
Discomfort is such a great word to use here! The desire for authentic representation and queer stories has become a culture of projecting control onto others, to make up for the things queer people can't always control about ourselves
So glad you had becky on she's always who i think of when these conversations pop up and she's always so vocal about it. we not only still see it a lot about celebrities (that one video about the red white and royal blue cast always annoys me) but also in the book community it's still so prevalent. all the "why are queer romances overwhelmingly by afab authors writing mlm romances" and nobody thinks about the fact that romance in general is dominated by women and books by women are more likely to be marketed as young adult and romance. I'm so glad I'm seeing more "do you want another kit connor situation" in comments section as that person that was always bringing up becky and how real people can't queerbait (not to mention all the others this has happened to)
Thank you for what you said about ace people! I know way too many people who buys into the "but you don’t suffer" discourse and it’s seriously heartbreaking, firstly because if you actually listen to ace people you’ll realize they suffer, but also because isn’t the goal of us fighting for our rights is so anyone doesn’t have to suffer? What is the purpose of fighting for suffering to not be part of the gay experience if we’re gonna discredit people who doesn’t suffer??!!! Blows my mind
I find a lot of the acephobic arguments mirror biphobic ones. Basically, you're only "really queer" when you're in a gay relationship (and thus face discrimination based on being in a gay relationship).
@@divergentdreamerYes! This, absolutely. I’m bi, aroace, and agender. By this point I’m almost ready to give up and identify as tired. Trying to interact with the queer community, my own damn community, while learning to understand myself better through the years means I’ve lived through the same vitriol multiple times. My personal least favorite thing is that bisexuality and asexuality have both been smeared at different times as inherently transphobic, which is utter nonsense misinformation but made online queer spaces so hostile they became deeply harmful and essentially inaccessible for periods of time. It’s exactly the same rhetoric.
@@VexVerity I wonder how much of it is the changing definition (or composition) of community itself. "The queer community" used to be defacto just people who were very out in a very specific way. Involved in same sex relationships most or all of the time and spending time in community with other people who were doing the same thing. Gay bars, lesbian book shops, all of that. In-person get togethers among people who were mostly facing the same challenges and having the same experiences. But now it's more about identity. Mostly-closeted people, bi people in relationships that aren't same sex, ace people, nonbinary people who might not "look (or act) queer". All us invisibles. We weren't part of the community back then, and we didn't have the same experiences. All of us looking for that community we lack, in order to make sense of and give some kind of solidarity to our own versions of "the queer experience", and being rejected because we were never part of that community before and our experiences aren't the right ones. Nobody cares about your "identity", you poser. How many times have you been bashed? You know?
I so much don't understand this. If an author is limited to characters who exactly match their own demographics, then their fictional world is impoverished and unrealistic. An author finds their characters and follows them. You don't go in and say, well I have this straight Jewish woman and this Black gay man. You find the characters and then find out about them. If they all have to be just like you, then all you can make is an autobiography. It's so stupid.
that’s not so much the criticism… it’s more about perspective characters or stories that hinge on a marginalised identity theme. it’s definitely not perfect when strictly applied, but there is some good in there. for example, it encourages ownership, authenticity and uplifts marginalised artists.
@@caitie226 But in that case, marginalised artists -- if they can live off their art I don't even see if their marginalisation is real -- could only speak from a marginalised perspective about marginalised characters and events. This is to say that I agree a lot with @Cat_Woods
@@LisaSimpsonRules That’s an interesting perspective. I believe that the assumption is that marginalised people have an identity or experience poorly understood in the broader culture. However a non-marginalised identity is not poorly understood or misrepresented, so a marginalised person has enough exposure to present this identity well. You may feel that this principle holds better in some cases than others. I’m not sure what this has to do with whether their marginalisation is real though. For example, one of the creators of the Little Mermaid was gay and incorporated a character based off a drag queen (Ursula). He was able to make a living from his art, but he still faced discrimination and died of AIDS before treatment was available. It would be difficult to say he did not experience marginalisation despite his success…
@@caitie226 As I said in another comment on this video, my perspective comes from somebody who's an amateur writer, who has to make a living by means of having a job for a company, not from my art (I'm not saying mine s good art, but nevertheless of quality, it exists). Obviously I have to appropriate, some of the characters I've written about are the complete opposite of me in terms of age, race, sexuality, education, political ideology, gender religion, nationality and have done things that I disapprove strongly of. That's the fun of it. As I said, to say that this portrayal is good, bad, so-so, or even offensive, that's fair game, but I'm defending my right to talk about whatever and whoever I want to talk about in my fiction.
@@LisaSimpsonRules Hmm, I’m not sure you’ve really engaged with the argument here. The authentic authorship principle is interesting, but very few people would seek to apply it in the way you’re suggesting. All I can say is that I have read a lot of bad (misrepresentative, inauthentic, or offensive) fiction about a disability that I have, and this principle captures something that is an important consideration for writers. Imagination is not a reliable tool to understand other, real people. Even if strictly policing what people write is not a solution people favour. What I’m saying, is that if you can’t understand why people would suggest this principle, then you may not be as good at understanding marginalised perspectives as you seem to feel you are. Ironically, this would probably just weaken your writing! Like I say, I’m not advocating for policing what people write. I’m just suggesting the alternate perspective for you to consider-people have sought many ways to address this. If you enjoy understanding characters who you vehemently disagree with, then I’m sure this will be of interest to you.
One of the aspects of speculation about sexuality and pressuring and forcing people to come out that keeps nagging me is the heteronormativity and the gender normativity. Any man who even so much as glances at something feminine is gay, and usually this is something coming from the phobes. Why is the call coming from inside of the house with this sh!t? Why are we suddenly reinforcing gender stereotypes? It often really dances the line of drifting into transphobia and misogyny. And like, aren't we trying to stop that sh!t? I thought we were, but apparently I was wrong, and we can put men and women into two neat categories with zero overlap, and never shall the pink and blue touch. And when they do you MUST be queer. I might be simplifying and overgeneralising, but to me it really feels like an immature or possibly uninformed take on gender and sexuality. I've made those mistakes as well, of assuming people's gender or sexuality based on appearance, and then I learned better. All of it is more fluid and more varied, and gender expression, gender, sexuality, all of it, is not limited or defined by wearing a dress or being married to someone of a different sex. And it feels very limiting to try and make that the way we define gender or sexuality.
I was one of the early fans (I remember how excited I was by Becky's very first tumblr post about the movie!) and I remember how cozy and wholesome and queer(!) the fandom was at the time and how strange I felt when the movie came out and the public opinion became "it's for the straights" when I had found my little (very much not-straight) internet corner of friends through the fandom. It was very invalidating honestly.
I was there too! one of the first fandoms where I felt like I truly belonged, like I had a place. and she's always been so sweet the movie reviews left a rage in my soul that hasn't left since, and it's sad because even if from a non biased perspective I could agree to some of that, it was just an adaptation, there was so much to becky's work that didn't make it there
This video popped up in my feed tonight and it was so strange, as it's a topic I'd been talking about with friends very recently. The most shocking part to me about the backlash Becky received is that she'd essentially put in the work for years to affirm queer people, to add to intellectual resources for queer people, to make therapy spaces safe for queer people...AND YET still got an onslaught of harassment from (in particular) cis gay men. As a queer, trans and disabled person, I have to admit that it's exhausting to see the inevitable waves of backlash against ostensibly female creators from people who claim to represent those like myself. Personally speaking, if Becky had NEVER come out or didn't identify as queer, she's still someone whose voice and good works do more overall good than people like James Somerton who made it a mission to do actual harm to people like her. I hope Becky is doing well these days, and I hope her experience won't deter others from sharing their creative output.
This is the first time I've heard the term queer baiting used to refer to the way an individual celebrity conducts themselves in public...my immediate reaction was "oh, God, let's not go there." It makes sense to call out queer baiting in media but how much an individual wants to say about their own romantic or sexual life should really be up to them, no?
I haven't begin to seriously question my identity until late 20s so this speaks to me, the anxiety, too. On top of that I am just a very private person. Being a member of a community that's queer-friendly while not explicitly or exclusively queer I heard all the stories and experiences and "wittnessed" coming outs... I had this idea like there's a linear to-do list: I have to go through this, then this and then finally this and I become certified queer and everyone, including myself, will be satisfied and in the meantime I was kinda jealous of those who finished the list. It took me a while to realise I don't actually have to do anything... It definitely helps I'm a nobody.
I was the only out kid in 6th grade, part of how my mom (a children’s librarian) showed me she supported me was bringing me queer books, Simon Vs. the Homosapiens agenda had just come out, it was the only queer book I really connected to. I re-read it over and over. Which peace and love after reading leah on the offbeat I fully assumed you were queer and just didn’t realize it, because as a lesbian I related, there’s noooo way a straight woman wrote that are you kidding.
(I read Leah on the offbeat right when it came out, and was lined up for the movie as well. I felt that the movie felt a little more “straight-palatable,” but you’re clearly an author not a producer/casting director.
@@beckyalbertalli1955 I loved Leah on the Offbeat! Although I was already in my early twenties it found me at a time when I was still figuring myself out and I related a lot to Leah :) I'm so sorry people treated you so badly ❤
The developmental process of coming out to oneself for bisexuals can be so complex. Appreciate this interview and how Matt handles the conversation with such care and humor.
i love her so much. so many younger people don’t get how different it was in the 90s. i know i grew up in a mormon household and i excused my crushes on women until my 30s!
For the record, asexual people do still face discrimination, even though it's not as dramatic or obvious as what other queer identities go thorough. Putting aside the corrective rape and feeling like we can't be honest about our lack of sexual attraction with doctors or therapists out of fear of being pathologized, there's just the subtle struggle of receiving the message that there's something important just *missing* in us over and over again for all of our lives. It's especially difficult for men, who are assumed to be very sexual by default and are seen as lesser if they haven't had sex. And it can make it hard to engage with the greater queer community when your inclusion feels more like an obligation than eager acceptance, I've heard that the bi experience is often similar in that way.
Thank you so much for talking about this. I love Love Simon! That book and movie really helped me feel more comfortable about being queer in middle school in 2018 and I've always thought it got too much hate.
There's honestly so much discrimination between queers themselves. I generally dont talk about my Sexuality or pursue people of my gender because sometimes folks just make some ass backwards logic about me not being queer because i dont do something stereotypical. My favorite example is I'm not queer because I listened to freddie gibs, Kendrick lamar and emeniem but not mitski
I watched Love, Simon when I was just barely trying to figure out my own bisexuality. It was the first time I had really seen a story with queerness front and center and I really related to Simon’s feelings and fear and his acceptance arc. After watching it and feeling just a little seen I saw all the backlash and people saying that it wasn’t really queer and it was a movie for straight people and it messed with me. It made me question my sexuality, made me feel like an imposter, it was a super invalidating experience. In a similar vein I read Imogen, obviously and I have never felt more seen nor related to a character more. That book really encapsulated what it was like discovering my bisexuality when no one was willing to hold a space for me. So thank you Becky for using your experiences to help me feel more seen and validated and I’m sorry so many people made it so horrible and difficult for you. Edit: I also like that Love, Simon wasn’t super heavy and just a Rom-Com that just happened to be gay because it gave me hope that I could feel normal and have normal experiences some day. I watched it with my religious mom and the sympathy she had for Simon made me realize that maybe I would be okay some day. We need diverse queer stories, which means happy endings and simple lives have a place in queer media.
when love simon first came out i was 13. i knew i was gay and i was terrified to come out to my parents. i always knew in the back of my mind they'd be supportive, and really wouldn't think much of it, but that didn't help much lol. i watched the movie soon after it went on streaming (didn't dare ask for a theater ticket) and i absolutely bawled my eyes out. i only watched it a couple times, but i was honestly obsessed, and couldn't get it out of my head. i even stole a copy (on accident!) from my english teacher, which i still have and still haven't read. anyways, the movie gave me a push in the right direction. simon's parents are like mine, a little more liberal than average. seeing them react the same way i knew mine would, not the way i feared, really set in stone that i was gonna be okay. i came out the next year to my mom, dad, and step-mom. none of them were surprised :-)
There's such an easy solution that does not include harrassment: If you don't feel comfortable supporting straight authors, musicians, etc. then start researching out queer people and support their work instead of spending all this time speculating about and harrassing straight, questioning and closeted people. There's plenty out queer creators out there. If you so desperately want more representation, then give your money to the people already providing it and make THEM popular. The more people are out AND successful, the more people will feel comfortable to come out too. I want people to come out because they want to and I want closeted queer and questioning people to create queer media without having to fear it will out them or they'll be torn to shreds. I want people to explore their sexuality without fear and without having to immediately put a label on it. And I want straight people to include queer characters in their works as well! I'm 26 and I've gone from thinking I was straight to identifying as bisexual to identifying as a lesbian to right now still identifying as a lesbian but also thinking I'm probably on the asexual spectrum. Many people don't have their sexuality figured out, some never find a label that perfectly fits, others know their label from an early age and keep it forever - let people be HUMAN.
Great episode! While i also dont agree with campaigns targetting actors doing queer roles, there is a perspective missing though: that out queer actors are still often sidelined after them coming out. Defs not an actor issue but on the casting agents and producers and big corporations. But its a systemic issue that we can’t fight on individual art projects
More than anything, we need to all learn to apologies quicker and forgive more quickly. This story is so sweet, the world needs more understanding. Good on both of you guys❤❤❤
I feel like if we want to rid ourselves of heteronormativity that we need to start living that way ourselves. It shouldn't matter what someone else might label themselves and we need to stop asking. Either someone voluntarily decides to label themselves or they don't. If you really must, then just assume that everyone is bisexual (or pansexual) by default. That way people can live their lives and date who they want without it being some big revelation when they do. If someone really identifies with the straight label then it's their burden to come out to us. We shouldn't automatically apply it for them. 💅
i was a young, closeted teen when the movie came out and gotta admit it took a while til i heard aboiut the "queerbaiting" accusations. The discourse that was going on around me was mostly straight people complaining that it was made into "such a big deal the main character was gay". Even allies said those things, thinking they were supporting the queer community, all becaus the movie didnt tell the coming out story from the perspective of a straight person, but from the perspective of a gay teen who is struggling with how it changes his life and makes him different. I find that relatable. At 21 I'm still not out to my family, because I don't want to change their perception of me. I finally got to watch Love, Simon on Netflix now these days and it made that part of me, that was 15 and felt she couldn't talk back to straight people saying "I just don't get why they have to make a whole movie about it" so happy. It's not a story for straight people. It's part of our story. Thank you, Becky
I know this was just a passing comment, but I think it's important to emphasize that, while I agree that queerness should not be gatekept by how oppressed you are, ace people are also forced to go through conversion therapy, corrective r*pes, may have their marriages annulled by some governments and are also constantly alienated from both cishet and queer society.
We should allow straight people to write gay stories, to play gay characters, to explore that side of the world. Tbh, I don’t think Becky coming out as a bisexual woman makes her more “qualified” to write a book about a gay high school boy. And what I mean by that is that what qualifies you is a genuine, good-faith interest in telling queer stories, and anyone can have that, regardless of their identity. And I think she does have that, and that should be enough.
I agree, although I think her being LGBT does give her a bit more personal insight into how her characters might be feeling, I also think the experience of a bi girl vs a gay boy are so different that it doesn’t make her the best person to tell that story… Still, I think Love Simon was an important first step in popularizing LGBT stories and I’m glad it was successful!
I really don't understand how the book could be viewed as queerbait. It was not queerbait because Simon and Blue expressed MANY TIMES how they were gay. Queerbait is if there is no queer representation, so the author puts in a queer subtext, but her book had no "subtext", they were just gay, which was stated many times, and they got together in the end. Also, I don't understand why the queer representation was considered wrong. Not all queer coming outs are sad and awful like people tend to think, coming outs can be happy too (Simon's coming out was not happy because he was forced out of the closet and mocked online, but his family immediately accepted him). I'm sure many people can identify with that, everyone has different experiences. I don't know how anyone could've hated on that book and thought that it was queerbaiting??? I always considered Becky to represent the mom in that book, who was very accepting. The hate just sounds very forced and I don't have any criticism with the book, it's one of my favourite books. Any author can write about any sexuality if they understand enough about it because at the end of the day, it's fiction and it's representation. It represents me even if it doesn't represent you, and that doesn't make it a bad book.
Its wild cus after Leah on the Offbeat came out my teenage brain was like ''Becky isnt straight, no way'' And then I was proven right. Only a fellow sapphic can write the longing girlies have for other girlies
this was a really important conversation. Thank you for facilitating it, Matt, and huge thanks to Becky for sharing your personal life so candidly even though you never should have had to. I really relate to your experience as someone who still avoids using the terms queer, bisexual or genderqueer despite never relating to straight communities and feeling so at home with my queer friends. I never feel gay enough with my predominantly masc presenting AMAB partner (who also deals with the exact same feelings as myself and like he doesn't "deserve" to come out as nonbinary) and my frilly dresses. But why does any of that matter? If I feel the mostly comfortable in queer spaces, that's where I belong.
@user-pl6bh4bd7q oh please. She wasn't born a spoiled brat and this isn't a small thing. Ignoring someone being forced to come out is not okay. She is one example and a very clear one. If we are discussing how people are forced to come out to avoid cries of "queerbating!" Merely as a consequence for existing, then she is a good example. Also she's a woman. And the point is that it's horrible when people are forced to out themselves. She is one example. Focusing on her only is problematic
@@calvinpittser2975 half the country cant pay their rent. trans people cant get hired. and im supposed to feel bad for a millionaireYT girl that felt uncomfortable? sorry but billie eilish is not gay rights lol it’s very hillary clinton feminism
@@calvinpittser2975 yt deleted my comment… half the country cant pay their rent.transpeople cant get hired. and im supposed to feel bad a millionaireWyte girl who felt uncomfortable? billie is notgayrights. she is hillary clinton feminism.
I'm not usually interested in romcoms, but Love, Simon is one I can definitely say I love. I also try to avoid hype-trains, so I don't often see movies until much later when the commotion dies down, which sometimes bites me when the DVDs suddenly become harder to find. Anyways, I can appreciate that it has a much less doom-and-gloom tone; we get more than enough of that everywhere else that it's no secret. Frankly, it's a bit more of what communities should strive for, where Simon _didn't_ have to face such life-altering rejection once he was outed. Even his friends, bad as their reactions were, weren't angry at him for being gay as they were for being toyed with, even if it was on account of Simon being blackmailed. Plus, even though it doesn't express just how dangerous being outed can be, it's not like it completely ignores negative reactions. I like that moment Simon flips the scenario in his head on straight people having to come out. I also like the secondary commentary on social media gossip; ironic given how some people went after Becky and celebrities generally.
Having re-read Imogen Obviously recently and only ever having known the gist of this situation, hearing it all in Beckys Words was really enlightening and heartbreaking at the same time. Thank you so much for your strength and your amazing books Becky!
When I was 17, my parents violated my privacy, found out I was gay, and then cornered me with the evidence. They forced me out of the closet in a way that is very painful to think about even now. I saw Love Simon in theaters a year later, and the scene where Simon yells at Martin (who violated his privacy and then outed him) made me cryyyy and still does. It articulated my sense that something had been stolen from me and externalized the anger I was too scared to feel towards my parents in a way that made me feel recognized. I do think the movie has some flaws, but I will always have a soft spot for it because it gave me that gift.
this is so strange to me, especially with actors - straight people can play queer people and vice versa. it is their job to act, not to portrait themselves. the same for authors of novels. If everyone can only write about what they themselve experienced, we would loose so much great art. when did people forget how empathy works?
Omg I didn’t realise Becky is the author of Imogen, Obviously until she mentioned it at the end. That book had me crying because I felt so validated. I only recently came out as bi while in a longterm relationship with me boyfriend. I always feel like it’s not important to come out because what does it matter, I hope to marry my partner so I don’t expect to ever get into a relationship with a woman, but that doesn’t take away my feelings nor does it erase my bisexuality. Still coming to terms with it but Imogen, Obviously was a big part of me feeling valid. Thatnk you Becky for all that you do and I will eagerly wait for more books to come ❤
By this logic, the entire genres of fiction are nothing more than spacebaiting and appropriating fantasy characters' voices, since the author cannot possibly have lived experience of them. Seriously, whatever happened to good writers doing research and immersing themselves in other people's stories to become a conduit for their emotions? Is empathy not the cornerstone of both sharing stories and engaging with them?
when i first discovered i was queer at age 12, i had no one i could identify with. i literally knew no other queer people. i felt so alone and deeply closeted, and simon was the first piece of queer media i found. i hid the book at the bottom of my drawer and read it until it was falling apart. even though it didn't perfectly encapsulate my experience as a lesbian, it brought me so much comfort and joy that i desperately needed. i got more into sapphic ya fiction in high school, but i found this book at the time i most needed it. i'm now an out gnc lesbian who surrounds herself with the queer community at university, and i am eternally grateful to becky for giving me (and many other queer kids, i'm sure) that lifeline.
Man, that tweet at 45:35 hit me out of nowhere because that is the exact reasoning which prevented me from realising my own bi-ness for quite a while. Well, until my early 20ies, I wasn't even really aware that it was an option to begin with. Luckily I was in some very open-minded groups at the time, which helped out quite a bit. It still took me until my late 20ies to fully accept my bisexuality, because of a lot of stereotypes around it. And now, a few years later I am happy in a hetero marriage, so I get to experience the wonderful world of "see it was just a phase, you are straight after all." Well, at least I don't face much bigotry from people that don't know me, so there's that.
I am a firm believer that people cannot queerbate. Humans are fluid. Claiming certainty from someone is counterproductive to the human experience and limits people from self discovery, exploration and reflection. It is ridiculous to demand a coming out from someone, public figure or not. I feel a lot of queer discourse has turned sour over the years and I've had to distance myself from a lot of it.(especially on twitter) It's as if queer pain has become more valued than queer pride. We almost don't allow ourselves happy love stories. That there has to be some kind of tragedy associated with us. Queer pain of course is important to recognize, but making it so integrated with queer identity itself I feel is holding us back from experiencing the joy of queer love, diverse gender expression and identity. I would have loved to have grown up with YA gay romance stories. Where is my "cringe" gay teen romcom that I can rewatch and revel in nostalgia every year? Let people have fun movies that aren't all trauma.
When Love, Simon came out I was at the first grade of High School and was not out to my parents, only to friends. I cried a lot by the end of the movie. Of course it was a romanticized version of a coming out story, but I guess what got to 14-year-old me was that rather fairytale-ish, “”ideal”” coming out story that I kind of wished would be mine.
As an amateur writer, I would like to think for myself that no topic is off limits. But there is a book club which I attend on which appropriation is heavily criticised. In the debates I tend to say that, if you take appropriation to its limits, nobody can write about anything than their own past experiences and themselves: no other person / characteristics can be explored. That is so limiting for creators! Humans have empathy and dialogue, and those things are the only ones that may save us. Appropriation in this sense can be done well or badly, of course, and that X author is giving a wrong image, or that a portrayal is unrealistic, can be said, and sometimes it should be said, and that's fair game. I don't even see much of the point in putting this type of barriers. And then the same people that yell at creators for appropriation, then complain that they are not being represented enough in popular media. There is a contradiction there, in my opinion. And nowadays it seems like 'damned if you do, damned in you don't'.
I can't say it was for me (the movie, I have not read the book). I would not call it queerbaiting, that's a mostly useless term at this point anyway. and I obviously do not think someone has to be of any particular sexuality to write about queer characters. but it did feel very "safe" in a way that I think would be very easily-digestible and non-threatening to a straight audience, but that I could not relate to either now (understandably, I'm an adult) or from my experiences around the age of the characters. all that said, it's not like rom-coms have to be remotely realistic or relatable (not really what the genre is known for at all, actually), and I'm definitely older than the target audience, and there are limits to what the market will tolerate in queer storytelling. even if I didn't personally love it, I do think it's better that the story is out there for some young queer kid to find compared to not. it probably would have been a good experience for me to see a movie like that when I was a kid. (the ferris wheel scene still bugs me a bit though. I know it was meant to be a heartwarming climax, but it felt yucky and a little voyeuristic) my criticisms aside, Becky seems like a nice lady, and harassing her was obviously really shitty and uncalled for. people shouldn't do that sort of thing, the stakes around a piece of fiction are pretty much never going to anywhere near high enough to justify it. and absolutely nothing good ever comes from getting aggressively nosy and trying to police other people's gender/sexuality. (and a lot of fandom sounds like a truly wild place that I'm just going to keep on staying away from)
Your channel seems to be growing very fast and it’s been blessed by the algorithm! Keep up the podcasts, long form audio content has a huge audience and your pacing and topics are really good 💘
I think anyone of any identity can and should write stories of anyone of any other identity. More people thinking about and caring about stories beyond their own experiences is good actually (imho). Plus, I don't think it's healthy to have Hayes code style censorship of stories about marginalized people but with a progressive rhetorical coat of paint. I also am NOT a fan of the tendency I see to assume people writing queer stories are secretly sexually deviant freaks in some way. And the fact that I keep seeing people get harassed for telling stories centering people from marginalized identities, which seems counterproductive if your goal is more visibility. We should be normalizing queer content, not less. And because this is the uncharitable environment of a comment section on the internet: yes, of course, we should be centering stories directly from people of marginalized identities. These things aren't mutually exclusive imo.
This is a big thing in the KPOP fandom right now. There is a lot of fanservice and perhaps some nuance here, but coming out in the industry is practically a no go in such a conservative country. There is a group called OnlyOneOf who make music and music videos with explicitly queer themes, they've said it's about queer stuff, they are supportive and welcoming to the queer community at their events and concerts, but they havent come out publicly about their sexualities for what to me is obvious reasons, and people still ignore them when asking for queer representation in kpop, and talk about how they are queerbaitng and therefore don't count, it's infuriating lol
Loving the discussion today, I first heard of Love, Simon and Becky Albertelli in the HBomb plagiarism video. But completely feeling seizing the moment when your baby first actually sleeps thru the night! 😂 And further, I swear to god, as a Gen X person (and normally, I hate the stupid generation distinctions but) one way we were better off was that we didn't have social media, and there wasn't such a fixation on who was holding hands with who, or who was making out with who. Granted, I grew up in NY, but honestly, I believe *everyone* is on a sexual spectrum. I consider myself straight, but have had serious crushes on and hookups with girls, which I legitimately enjoyed, loved being with those women, but for the most part I love men. I wouldn't consider myself bisexual, but I'm so frustrated with this sort of militant attitude about how people MUST come out if they have ANY sense that they might like to explore a relationship, whether sexual or emotional with someone of the same sex. And then to be called a poser, or baiter for pursuing those relationships. I think so much of the issue with social media is the drive to open their lives up to millions of people. Teenagers especially. No one needs to have their young blunderings out onto the internet, but they almost feel like they HAVE TO expose every part of their lives to millions of people, and they DON'T! Also Matt's nails and eyes this video? ❤ I can't have long nails, bc I destroy any manicure in 5 min, but I'm going to try to emulate the natural eye you've got going on!
This topic is very important to me. I'm closeted eastern european lesbian artist. I have a big passion for art and storytelling and drawing my own queer comic or graphic novel IS my biggest dream. Yet with modern internet culture i'm also legit terrified of it because outing could ruin my entire life. And as i see the same situation is whith a lot of non western queers. We need normalise back not knowing anything about creators. I prefer 10000 "straight people" who are pretending to be gay for profits than one outed author.
30:55 True. Mine coming out was awful as well, but watching smb having better one was very therapeutic for me... It was like""Oh, if only my parents were like this"
I agree that people shouldn't be defined by their pain, but for the record the people who say ace people can't be hurt haven't been told they need to "get over it" or they will never be loved by their parents and dismissed when they try to come out
When i watched love, simon i related to having your coming out moment talking out of you, and was happy for we having a happy gay story instead of painful homophobia
As a closeted queer teen I got to watch love Simon on a plane trip I took by myself. I cried my eyes out and it changed my life in being able to start consuming queer media. Even if you had been straight, in my eyes there was still a large positive impact in representation! I’m sorry you got pressured into coming out, you’d think we’d eventually learn as a community about not harassing people about their sexuality, from you, Dan and Phil etc. all the way to Kit Connor the fact that people can’t have their own private lives is just disappointing.
I feel like the prime example of this is the fallout of "helicopter story". The Creator dropped out of public life, stopped their transition, despite winning a Hugo. No one knows who they are and they deserve that privacy, but they also didn't deserve to get attacked for being creative while queer.
UGH I LOVE IMOGEN OBVIOUSLY SO MUCH i’ve personally had zero romantic experience but am bi and also went through an extreme ally phase… although i haven’t had the specific kind of trauma they’re talking about here that book speaks to me SO MUCH especially with all the biphobia i experience 😭
I'm turning 30 next month and only now figuring out my sexuality and gender. And I've gotta say, this discourse and witch hunting makes me feel pretty awful about it. Especially given my age. I can't imagine going through what I've gone through over the past four years in the public eye. I've been pretty loud and public about what I've been dealing with when it comes to friends and family, but in those cases it's been my choice who I do and don't include in that. I can't imagine struggling and overcoming all of my internalized queerphobia and religious programming, getting to the place where I can say out loud the words "I'm a girl" or "I'm bi" only to have a thousand randos on the internet tell me I'm lying or performing because I'm too old or because I'm married to a woman or because I use she/they pronouns or whatever else. I've had to work very hard to get to this place. And if I'm real, every step of the way I've questioned whether or not I'm fake. I've been fortunate to have validating people around me who help to assure me that yes, I am real, and I do count as fill in the blank. Even though it took me this long to get here. Maybe if those voices had been replaced with ones of condemnation instead, I wouldn't have gotten here at all.
I would just like to add that (while not necessary imo to be included in the lgbtq+ community) ace and aro people do experience abuse and persecution for their ace and/or aro-ness - I just don't think it's very well publicized or discussed.
I have to admit the title and the thumbnail made me nervous to watch the video. As a fujoshi/danmei lover, I am pretty tired of hate dogpiled onto straight women for enjoying BL. But I'm glad I clicked. This was informative!
I really related to Becky when she said that she felt she was the straight ally and ignoring all the neon signs lol. Even the part when she talks about minimizing your attraction to girls. (internalized heteronormativity, much?) BEEN THERE. I'm happy for her now, she's an author I can relate to! And will def check out her work, not much of a YA/romance girly myself but I'll give her a chance. Great episode Matt!! It was very insightful, I found myself nodding along several times.
As much as it saddens me, as someone who can basically never come out I think I need to lessen the queer coding of the characters in the book I’m co writing. I’m glad I heard all of this and I hope one day the world will have changed enough for characters to be queer without the author having to put themself ❤️
Years ago, an alum from my highschool published a book about a student being groomed by her teacher. The media slammed her for it, saying she had no right to speak for survivors, and even comparing her book to the story of another author, claiming she plagiarized it. Eventually, she was forced to admit that this book was semi-autobiographical, and she was actually a victim of her own teacher. She was forced to reveal her trauma when she wasn't ready to. Good for you for admitting you were wrong. So many journalists force writers to reveal deeply personal information about themselves, and then move on like they didn't just cause immense harm to someone.
I remember the incident you're talking about! I felt so bad for her, I can't imagine having to issue that kind of public statement.
That story, and the story behind this video, actually really changed the way I thought about the way we talk about "own voices". Sometimes a demand for sensitivity or authenticity or accuracy can turn into an invasion of creator privacy if we're not careful.
I’m pretty sure which book you’re talking about, and I’ve read it. It’s so well written and I feel awful for the autbor
I don’t know what that book’s name is but that sounds HORRIFIC, how are people still so ignorant and stupid in 2024??
Are you talking about My Dark Vanessa?
@@BOO13FRI people speaking on behalf of demographics they don’t belong to, in order to white night, and also a lack of media literacy.
Alex Claremont-Diaz summed it up pretty well for me "The forced conformity of the closet cannot be answered with the forced conformity in coming out of it"
exactly.... I am sorry my story resembles a guy in a stupid boys love anime and that is not normal.... but hey what can I do 😅
A lot of these "queerbaiting" accusations also feel icky to me because of what they use as so called evidence. Like, in Harry Style's instance, dressing femininely or things like that. Sometimes we queer people have a lot of growing to do ourselves in regards to gender norms. A man can be feminine and show affection to other men without being queer. A woman can be masculine and show affection to other women without being queer. None of those things are inherently queerbaiting. If we want to normalize acceptance of gender nonconformity we have to be okay with straight people doing these things too
Exactly. And queerness doesn't look and feel the same way for everyone
💯
This. Even if Harry was 100% straight, how is him dressing fem queerbaiting? He's expressing himself in a way that gives him joy. Suggesting he's trying to look 'gay' by dressing femme is just continuing the gender norms of western society. Not to mention playing into stereotypes of queerness too. Us queers should be the last batch of people continuing the shitty "oh, this guy likes make up? Must be a homo, lollllll"
I see a lot of this coming from young people so I try to not get too bent out of shape over this. I'll be 40 soon and I'm trying very hard to not turn into the middle aged cranky guy who flips out and accuses the kids of "dragging us backward with their 'nonsense'". LGBTQ+ acceptance has made major moves in the few short years I've been alive, and I totally understand and empathize with the shitshow Gen Z is dealing with and the massive trauma it's causing. I understand the fear, anxiety, and dread they feel and I also understand why they react the way they do to certain things. But young people experience the world eventually, they grow and mature, and I'm really excited to see them get their hands on power. Gen Z is going to do amazing things; they're amazing people who are kind, empathetic, and extremely concerned about the well-being of others. So what if right now they're a little loud? They have to be, actually.
oh palease, a lot of this is predictable, and we can try to get others to act better without this stupid finger pointing and looking down upon. People dont even really care, they care enough to sound superior in the comments and then they go on with their lives.
Also - 99% of the time, when it quakes like a duck. Of course, random online mob of people will sometimes get it wrong. this need for perfection is gross. you will never obtain, and no one can obtain for you. guess what, a movement for something good sometimes does something bad. Learn from it, don't use it as an excuse to brow beat and tell those OTHER gays how they are not GAYING it correctly.
Contrapoints latest video on romance novels and power dynamics of gender touches a bit on this very briefly. A lot of straight women like gay romance/porn/erotica, not because they're fetishizing gay men, but because society doesn't give women a lot of ways to imagine sexual relationships without coercive gender dynamics. Since women are expected to identify with male characters in a way men are never expected to identify with female characters, it's a just hop skip and a jump for women writing romance fantasies to genderswap their self-insert character to sidestep the misogyny of gender roles.
I've been trying to explain this phenomenon to people for decades, I'm so glad more people are pointing it out
Very well articulated comment. That's the best and most concise way I've seen this phenomenon summarized thus far.
I do appreciate that Natalie did that and I hope people listen to her finally, because women have been trying to explain that for as long as I have been reading m/m fic, and it's been about 20 years.
Oh my god that makes so much sense
I watched it, at some parts it felt like she was reading from my soul. Why I gravitate to certain types if fantasies.
remembering how hbomberguy talked about how james somerton was really rude to becky albertelli in his videos and how james was one of those who called her a "straight woman appropriating gay boys"... i am so glad that she stood up for herself and is here speaking to you, matt :)
somerton's open, blatant misogyny is something i really wish people brought up more. it seems like he genuinely just hates women
@@AoiUsagiOtokoespecially toward bisexual women. sometimes it felt like he hated bi women more than straight women. misogyny in any capacity is bad, but if he's championing "centering queer ppl" why leave out bisexual women? it's called lgBt for gods sake.
Honestly as a bi man that had a rough experience in high school and primary school I don't want every story about being gay or being bi or whatever being a spiral of horrific homophobia filled mess that has thoughts about internalised
homophobia and queer suffering like its fine to have serious story's but can we just enjoy some queer stories that aren't about all that it's just people in love can we please just have some stories like that without a "well this isn't realistic to the queer experience" like don't claim everyone's experience is pure suffering like mine was let's build a society where queer isn't associated with intense homophobia and bigotry like come on
Yes. This. This is why I adore fanfiction, it gives anyone the opportunity to create queer stories about anything
In my observation, the queer people obsessed with stories about suffering, loneliness, and misery are usually the ones accusing anyone who doesn't want to be miserable of being straight.
Idk if it’s your taste but danmei does a great job at having queer stories that don’t revolve around homophobia. I mean obviously it exists in the universe but the main conflict is almost never tied to that. For example a very famous one the MC suffers but not because he’s a closet bi man(he still is don’t get me wrong) , it’s because his powers are unconventional and he stood up for war refugees and other mostly political affairs. The main conflict would still happen even if he was straight.There’s still some issues and danmei is not perfect by any means, but for the most part I can rest in peace that the conflict would never be about their queer identity.
@@frozentargaryen4736 Are you talking about Mo Dao Zu Shi? Also Thousand Autumns, it is as "manly" as it gets. Fights after fights. Politics and philosophy. One of my favorite works of fiction across all genres.
@@Kkttrr31643 yes it’s Mo Dao Zu shi. I haven’t started Thousand Autumms yet but I own all the books that are out.There’s probably more but the main danmei author I know is a man is Fei Tian.
As a person from a country that bans and persecutes LGBTQ+ content and it's creators, I'm shocked and disgusted listening to this. Like... bullying the author while being a part of the LGBTQ+ community...give it a rest, homophobes need something to do, leave it to them.
Same here
Except this didnt happen in your country and the resuly was realyl quite different. Let's stay in reality, and not your mind where this same thing happens where you live or lived and there were aditional consequences (and likely in that country, the outing was done by the bigots).
@@xBINARYGODxwow, I have never been so ashamed by a comment from one queer person to another. The dismissal you state of real problems queer people (who get persecuted and killed) face elsewhere to entertain your first world problem debate about queer-baiting is nauseating. Queer visibility in media is important and there are queerbaiting creators like Mario Adrion who make a living of this and don’t get any heat, so say thank you for showing some appreciation and gratitude and for directing your criticism where it’s due.
“homophobes need something to do” is iconic
@@xBINARYGODx people are imprisoned and tortured by the government if they express their queer identity. This is my reality. Bullying an author of lgbtq+ books for their identity while being queer yourself is bizarre to me. If a book is shitty - criticise it, not the author for daring to write it. Otherwise you're doing the same thing as bigots.
I was in the midst of coming out when Love Simon was released. Hearing Jennifer Garner's character affirm and accept Simon with "you get to breathe again" was lifechanging to me. it helped me with the language I needed when i came out to my parents just a few weeks later. It was comforting and felt like a warm hug. Yeah Love Simon isn't perfect but it was needed, even for a depressed and closeted 22 year old.
How Becky Albertalli was treated in that aftermath under the guise of "queerbaiting" was so disheartening. Using literary or media criticism to go after people in queer media for not being out is such a backwards notion.
Was "Love, Simon" one of the media that depicted being gay in middle school as an overwhelmingly positive experience?
@@Newton-ReutherI mean it don't know if it is "overwhelmingly positive" but it definitely set in a high school that is more open minded and homophobic people are an outlier. I think the book was more balanced take of "it is safer to be out than it would be ten years ago but we're still in Georgia." It felt realistic to a more Gen Z audience than me, who grew up in a small town in the 00's where being out made you a target.
@hanhantap I guess I'm just concerned (perhaps irrationally so) that in all the optimistic "it's much easier to be a gay kid now than it was 10-20 years ago," that people fail to recognize that there are still a lot of places that are awful for queer kids.
But obviously, that topic is not going to get widespread and mainstream support when depicted in film/TV
They should never have deleted the "WE are not gay!" scene, which gave it much needed balance. The film as it stands is seriously off.
@@Newton-Reuther But we can have both. We can acknowledge that the world still sucks for queer people in a lot of places, but still have stories that aren't weighed down by it.
Andre Aciman, author of Call Me By Your Name, is a straight, married man, and nobody ever gave him grief for being straight or "queerbaiting" in his book. But he's a man and his book had explicit sex in it, so it gets a pass...
(Yes there are other issues in the book, but--rightfully--nobody claims "queerbaiting.")
The unforgivable part of that book was when the little twink wanted to look at his boyfriend’s turds in the bowl so “there would be nothing secret between them”. JAIL, MR ACIMAN. JAIL!
This just made me realise that "Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda" did not even have a single sex scene in it and yet Becky was accused of it being her sexual fantasy. Plenty of adults write about teens having sex, but it's her who gets accused of that when she the book was not even very sexual at all!
that's interesting! Do yout think it's because he's a man?
@@Chachoncha and the genre probably. YA vs “literary” fiction.
I do remember it being a very small amount of conversation compared to the entire conversation about the book and compared to what Becky had to go through. I feel like with Call Me By Your Name any conversation questioning the sexuality of the author got shut down fast
I'm still convinced that left's second worst enemy is always ourselves. It's like we can't focus on the real problems we face. I feel so bad for Becky. Much love queen!
In polish leftist world. There is sentence about that phenomen of the bigest leftist person enemy is the other leftist, that you could translate to:
leftist being leftist to leftist
“The closet is not a safe place to be anymore” has deeply moved me as a comment. It really captures the paralysis that you feel while questioning gender or sexuality. Some of the shields that I use to give space for myself to explore gender are now seen as incriminating to a loud group of people
really reminds me of the tumblr meme ""we need weirder queers" you can't even handle aces" it basically applies to anyone beyond the LG part of the acronym honestly, nevermind people still figuring themselves out or gnc and other queer adjacent folk.
Even if she was straight, that shouldn't have deligitmazed her point-of-view as an author of a fictional story.
Plus I mean if they're not happy about it they can read or watch other things and bring light to those works. @jmwilliams88
I think the critisism was/is that its misrepresenting gay people to some degree to an enourmous straight mainstream audience.
I think people should have the guts and say that that critisism regardless of the authors Personal background but then again it is very weird to tell a queer person that the story they wrote about coming out isn't good or acurate.
I think there is still something to be said about someone from a majority trying to speak for a minority (not just the LGBT+ minority) and the possible guidelines they might need in order to do it respectfully.
It's not necessarily impossible: an author can, for example, consult the people they want to talk about in order to be, at the very least, not offensive. This conversation is just more complicated than "always good" and "always bad".
Why should a straight woman be profiting of the experience of gay people?
The most heard thing I have heard back in the day was about women writing gay male stories much more than men writing gay male stories. The book came out when „own voices“ books were the trend
I think I was 14 or so when I read Simon vs the homo sapiens agenda and 16 when I watched the movie, and I never really got the criticism of it being an unrealistic portrayal of queerness, bc it was pretty similar to the experience I had. my family is supportive, my friends are supportive (and most of them are queer too), I was never persecuted at school for being queer or anything like that, and when I got to college I just told ppl right away that I wasn’t straight. there was never any suffering intertwined with my queer identity, i had other queer ppl in my family that were already out and it was always something that i saw as a possibility, even before I started to actually question my sexuality. tbh, I much more relate to an experience like simon’s in love Simon or nick’s experience in heartstopper, which ppl always accuse of being “queer media for straight ppl” or of being “sanitized versions of the queer experience”, than to any other media in which queer people are constantly suffering
I know I’m probably a minority amongst queer ppl and it’s really a shame that so many ppl have had (or still have) to suffer because of their identity or sexuality, but I’m still glad that I got a piece of media like love Simon that I could relate when I was younger
I'm glad your experiences have been so positive :)
Plus, I imagine positive depictions like in Simon or Heartstopper could also be healing in a way for people from less supportive backgrounds. I loved the scene where Nick comes out to his mum, his nervousness and her being so very chill about it ❤
I’ve had a weird inverse experience with queerphobia that’s kind of illuminating. No one hated on queer identities around me, let alone wanted ME to try being cis/het when I was growing up. It was an utter nonissue. Then later on (after relocating to a more conservative area of the country) I urgently needed to work on some unrelated childhood trauma, but could only find therapists who wanted to problematize my queerness and would essentially call me a liar for trying to talk about my real experiences instead. I think that people who are obsessed with a monolithic queer suffering story are the second most dangerous tier of phobes fighting against our survival and thriving.
@@twitchycoopark they are. I read so many people who said they could live teenage queer experience they never had! It's so amazing! Sometimes even actors do this (if they also happened to be queer)! Heal through the show/movie because they just like us have similar experiences and lack of representation
This. I came out as bi (leaning lesbian) to my mom when I was 13 and she was like: "Yeah, I had a feeling." And that was the end of it. She didn't make a big deal out of it at all, but she has been supportive when I've needed it. My dad made that weird Lucifer comment: "Oh you like girls? So do I! We have so much in common!" But he's never not been accepting of it. o-o And whenever I've told friends they have never treated me badly or differently for it, either. I was bullied as a child, but that was probably more related to me being autistic and thus visibly "weird" than with my sexuality. So eh, I don't find it that unrealistic at all. Even my grandma is super open minded about those kinds of things.
I remember 10-15 years ago when straight actors often won Oscars for playing gay roles while gay actors couldn't be out and get cast in those same roles. The impulse to fight queerbaiting makes sense in that context, but I think we've moved beyond it. If someone thinks pretending to be queer will make their life easier, go for it! 🤣
There's the other side of it, where the few actors who were out were almost always pigeonholed into playing supporting gay roles, and so that kept them from having the kind of star power that would attract mainstream (straight) audiences to Oscarbait movies, so they didn't get cast in those roles, and thus kept anybody who was in the closet from wanting to come out.
I dunno how far past it we are. There’s an upcoming gay historical movie with Josh O’Connor (God’s Own Country) and Paul Mescal (All of us Strangers). It’ll be the second gay lead role for each of them. Nicholas Galatzine from Red White & Royal Blue just did a tv show with Julianne Moore where he was playing gay again. There are gay actors in their 20s but they’re not getting those roles. They’re playing the gay best friend in an ensemble.
I think the economic harm of appropriation is very fair to go after. I don't actually know whether a hypothetical out gay writer, writing a book like that, would be less likely to be published than anybody else, in the same way that out gay actors faced (or still face) problems being hired for gay roles.
Regardless of that, the bullying of straight or straight-passing people for simply wanting to write on gay topics has got to stop.
@@BlueCyann it helps to know why the straights are being bullied though. And it’s because of frustration over how often we can see that they are getting opportunities that you would think would go to gay people but so often don’t.
We gotta stop searching for reasons to tear each other down as queer people. When Love Simon came out I was a mostly closeted lesbian dealing with a lot of fear and shame. Seeing that movie was profoundly comforting. It isn't perfect but nothing is... I'm so glad it exists.
I love hearing I wasn't the only one who spent my teenage years being "just a very VERY passionate ally" 😂
If I remember correctly, Rowan Ellis has a video where she talks about her coming out journey and apparently it was pretty similar, too. So no, you're definitely not alone :D
The A in LGBTQA stands for ally for a reason
@@tankiegirlI thought it was for Asexual 😭
@@StarsinRain For some people it does, but that's a very recent thing iirc.
It's a common queer experience I mean I did so much research about lgbt topics in my teen years 😅
I really enjoy Love, Simon. I understand it cuts out a lot of what us queer people can and do face, but it's nice to have a coming of age rom-com that just so happens to be gay.
Not all queer stories have to include awful experiences, not all gay people go through awful experiences.
@@yerinbaekscandlelightand we don’t always want to see those stories sometimes we just want fun stories. It’s like when Black people say they don’t just wanna see movies where the Black person is suffering something you just want for me to comedy it just happens to be inclusive of your community.
@@mbsiren Yeah, like how lots of coming of age comedies don't feature the worst of what teens go through on the daily. It's nice to have media out there you like, that represents you, without being a miserable watching experience lol.
@@fortetuono4068 exactly like would some stories benefit from including more queer culture yes but that doesn’t mean it only has to be about discrimination and the sort. We sometimes want an escape
Of course you’re white and basic looking
Matt, you briefly mentioned Ace people (in the context of them being included in the LGBTQ umbrella-question mark). I wonder if you'd ever consider exploring this in a future episode. We have little to no media representation, no legal protection against discrimination (unless considered queer). Very few of us really come out.
As a fellow (demi) acey, I second this, especially with International Day of Asexuality coming up on April 6th 😍😍😍🖤🩶🤍💜
What legal discrimination do asexual people face in society?
@@tankiegirl so... you didn't listen to the episode?
@@dustafee666i don’t see how that would’ve been answered in the video
@@tankiegirl oh gosh i don't know... Maybe the fact that everyone calls you "weird" if you don't have sexual feelings/don't feel the same sexual attraction as them? The fact that Ace characters are portrayed as villains, psychopaths, weirdos, social outsiders on TV? Maybe the life long pressure to find a partner? Hmmm... Maybe all of those and so much more? And before you come at me with the "but that's not legal discrimination"... It might not be illegal to choose not to have sexual partners, but it sure as hell signs you up for societal discriminations. And we haven't even touched on discrimination against people with disabilities... Because you know, we are much more likely to be taken advantage of, because "disabled people are all ace" anyway. Yes these are stereotypes, but they impact us on a daily level.
Maybe all of you do some research, before you deny ace people a platform.
It feels like there's this paradox, where people have been and continue to be demanding more queer respresentation in media, while rejecting anything created by someone who is not explicitly queer. Yes, platforming marginalized voices is a valuable and important thing. But if we want queer representation, why should we say it must only be created by queer people? As many people are already saying - nobody should be forced to reveal their personal information to show that they are "qualified" to write on a subject.
Not to mention, queer creators are also subject to immense scrutiny and criticism in their own depictions.
Feeling like an interloper in your own community and deferring to what other people say about your lived experience? That's the bi experience right there
Not me as a teenage girl wanting a gay best friend because they supposedly have the keys to the community I already belong to 😂
@erraticonteuse yes, this.
I really appreciate you for making this episode Matt! Being a bi woman, you have to deal with a lot of biphobia and misogyny, mostly from cishet people but also from your own community. It's sort of a joke in online queer conversations that bi women in particular take up a lot of space, and I do think it's important to have self awareness about one's place in the world, but a lot of time we're asked to make a joke of our experiences. Not every lighthearted joke at bi women's expense is biphobia, but I've realized there's sort of a point where you have to put your foot down and stand up for yourself and your identity. I can relate to the idea of feeling "prickly," when people joke that biphobia doesn't exist or is inconsequential. The rates of DV against bi women certainly aren't inconsequential to me! I think it's important to ask ourselves: at what point can we stop laughing at ourselves? The queerphobia and misogyny I've faced in my life is very real, and I'd say I'm at a point in my life where I know my boundaries and I feel comfortable asking other queer people to draw a line where we stop laughing
Omg, I appreciate this comment so much
real. fellow bi woman here and i feel like some queer ppl esp online have a really comfortable time making jabs at bi women and it bothers me. i get most are meant to be lighthearted but it doesnt change the fact that those jokes kinda contribute to the casual biphobia running around in certain online queer spaces
@@oppi-hop Maybe it's because of the presumption that bi women can simply escape from homophobia by living an essentially straight lifestyle, plus the perception among some queer men that anti-woman homophobia is milder than anti-man homophobia?
I'm not saying that's the truth of bi womens' experiences, but it is certainly how I've personally, anecdotally heard bi women discussed in queer spaces. As a gay person I can relate to having a sort of idealized notion of bi and by extension straight people being able to simply have fulfilling relationships without being otherized by people extraneous to that relationship for it, but that's obviously ignoring a lot of stigmatization that bi people and especially bi women can face within their own relationships.
Yup. Biphobia and misogyny are rampant in queer spaces, but we get gaslit and told we have "bi privilege." Meanwhile, bisexuals have higher suicide rates than gays and lesbians. But obviously we're just doing it for the attention 🙄 Call me jaded, but I gave up on being accepted by my own community, and when I talk about my sexuality I expect exactly as much casual bigotry from fellow queers as I do from straights.
That’s so insane to insinuate that bi women take up a lot of space in queer spaces, online or in real life, when from my perspective it’s usually the opposite? I’d say in general bi people make themselves smaller to avoid being ridiculed and ostracized in both cishet and queer spaces. And saying that a woman is “taking up too much space” is just basic misogyny anyway smh
It's telling that so much of the discourse on this is about _profiting_ from identity. American culture has degraded so far into late-stage capitalism that everything _must_ be commodified, especially your identity. We can't just be people, we have to be a _brand._ It's another tragic example of the profit motive making everything worse. Without capitalism, this problem would be minor and personal, assuming it was even a problem at all.
I hate that kit conner was forced out and I'm sorry if this is a controversial take but if your a starting out actor you take any role you can get gay or straight it's just the nature of the industry we shouldn't be taking our anger out on the Actor who's just doing there job
I truly don’t understand the psychology of taking a bisexual role in a beloved graphic novel adaptation and then being so private and precious about you personally being bi. That whole cast went on a huge Netflix press tour complete with every goofy Buzzfeed-style interview and he was just gonna not be openly bi that whole time? 🤨 He shouldn’t have even auditioned if he was gonna do that. Sends the message to young people that there’s something wrong with being queer that it has to be some deep dark secret even for someone in an affirming show.
@@19031589 you do not turn down roles when your a starting out actor I don't know what you think hollywood is like but it's not la la land and you are not intitled to know an actors sexuality sorry for being the one to tell you that
@@19031589 jesus.. being in the closet and afraid of coming out doesn't mean you think your secret is somehow dark and dirty. try opening your mind a little bit. he did not owe coming out to anyone.
@@19031589 But then would you expect a teenager (who already played the younger version of an iconic gay man before he was even old enough to know his own sexuality) to necessarily foresee all that? He was, and still is, very young.
@@19031589 bro one actors are not entitled to give you any information about themselves that they don't want you to know there job is to act and promote the film/series they are doing 2 makeing gay roles exclusive to only one gay actors excludes actors that are in the closet from auditioning for roles that will allow them to come out in there own time and 3 when you are starting out as an actor in hollywood you take whatever role you can get
my (non) understaning of bisexuality as a bisexual was something like: well i get the gay ppl who arent bisexual (love them, my ppl, am a huge ally etc), but whats the with straight people who arent bisexual, whats the deal, doesnt seem plausible, after all as a sTrAiGht pErSon mYsELf etc etc
It's like looking in a mirror
This is too real! I used to say things like "as a sTrAiGhT person" (my mates would roll their eyes, they knew years before I did) but I just thought "this is what normal is" and since most people seem to be straight, that's probably how they all think too so this is a totally heterosexual feeling... when I was depressed being separated from a girl I was so obviously in love with (but no we were best friends so this is normal). Having that heterosexual component to your attraction, especially as a femme person, really blurs the full scope of your sexuality and as someone with so many queer friends, I was often so suspicious that my "potential bisexuality" was just my mind tricking me to fit in with my group. There's a murkiness to bisexuality and learning about "comphet" from lesbians helped me accept it. In hindsight, the mental gymnastics I did is ridiculous and plain as day.
What a great talk. I used to take part in this type of discourse, retweeting posts talking about Harry Styles "queerbaiting" and the like. I think what really opened my eyes was the whole Kit Connor situation. Matt talked about how weird it is to demand answers about a teenager's sexuality, and of course it is weird, but I think him being a teenager is what got so many people to reconsider their stances.
i enjoy love simon because it kind of reflects my own experience with amazing supportive parents and friends. i know i was so lucky but it’s nice to have stories that aren’t all about the hardships queer people face, stories that give us some hope and optimism! and also as a bi woman, i’m so glad you guys talked about the different celebs that have dealt with what is honestly just biphobia to me. unfortunately some people are so wrapped up in questioning other people’s sexualities that anything they deem as at all “straight” erases their queerness. i’m a bi woman in a relationship with a man, i know the feeling of being unwelcome because i have a “straight” relationship. the biphobia in the community is genuinely heartbreaking and horrible
Sending love and solidarity
I have always felt extremely uncomfortable by how our community started applying the concept of queerbaiting to real people. It feels so closeminded and weird and causes people to come out extremely publically before they are ready OR an ally to stop creating positive queer content at all out of fear. I don't think turning inwards and rejecting otherwise thoughtful and respectful representation because the author, actor or whoever is straight, is going to help us in the long run. Of course a gay person can tell a gay story more personally and authentically than a straight person, that applies to literally _all_ storytelling. I think, however, that it is a good thing that we as humans are able to use empathy and try putting ourselves into someone else's shoes and tell an important story, as long as you don't put the actual people you are portraying down or speak over them. We need allies. We need people to be able to break gender roles and express themselves without it automatically meaning they are queer and having to disclose their private life. Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I hope I got my point across. I'm just a lesbian who wishes we were all a bit more friendly to each other.
I remember going to a queer club meeting as an "ally" and saying "I don't care what pronouns you use for me."
Turns out, I was a trans egg.
Gender? I hardly know 'er
Same. I was so vocal about defending queer people (gay, bisexual, trans, etc), helped start my school's GSA, and kissing my girlffriends in order "to destigmatize" in the early 2000s as an "ally". Years later, surprise! I'm complexly queer as fuck and oh also trans, lmao.
The A in LGBTQA stands for ally for a reason: it's the way for people in the closet to be a part of the community
reminds me of the time I said “oh I don’t really think about my gender” when talking about trans identities and my trans housemate (correctly) pointing out that it was probably a sign I was not trans
The "Gay-Straight Alliance" clubs we had when I was in high school were actually a genius cover for kids who weren't out yet to be involved but still have the deniability of "I'm just here to support my queer friends". Looking back as an adult there is definitely a teen-ally-to-adult-queer pipeline. 😄
This phenomenon reminds me a lot of the James Somerton situation--a lot of bi women and femmes being forced out of the closet and harassed by other queer people including cis queer men. Let me make it clear that I am NOT comparing Matt to James AT ALL 😭 not in a million years. More so that James's blatant misogyny in his queer analysis was widely ignored and I think it's so important to confront that element of these conversations
I think the fact that Matt is here admitting he made a mistake speaks a lot to his character. Whereas Somerton just completely refused to ever mention her or her work again (and lied about why!) after he was called out.
@@erraticonteuse Yes!! IMO, Matt is, like, a PERFECT contrast to James, and it speaks volumes
@@beckyalbertalli1955 I saw your post on the hbomberguy subreddit with the full context of that conversation, and I still cannot get over what a coward that man was to you.
As someone who was subscribed to him I kind of barely noticed the weird little comments he made until after he was called out. And now I feel kinda bad about it.
@@jazmineraymond7495 I think they're very normalized, unfortunately. Oh, appropriating straight white women again, okay. What's next on the actual topic. Easy to go in one ear and out the other.
i never read the book ‘Love, Simon’ but i watched the movie when i realised i’m queer. i loved it immediately and it helped me came out to a friend. i was in a long distance relationship with a girl at the time so i felt really close to Simon and his relationship with ‘Blue’. it used to be one of my comfort movies but some years later i realised the hate towards this movie, i didn’t even understand why but to avoid criticism i stopped feeling so close to it. i felt like i was the only queer person to love it. i felt wrong, again. but i really enjoyed it and i wanted to thank u becky for writing it. ‘Love, Simon’ helped me. it’s really strange how other people’s opinion can destroy the things you enjoy.
Discomfort is such a great word to use here! The desire for authentic representation and queer stories has become a culture of projecting control onto others, to make up for the things queer people can't always control about ourselves
When people started accusing noted bisexual, Cardi B, of Queer baiting I knew it was over.
So glad you had becky on she's always who i think of when these conversations pop up and she's always so vocal about it. we not only still see it a lot about celebrities (that one video about the red white and royal blue cast always annoys me) but also in the book community it's still so prevalent. all the "why are queer romances overwhelmingly by afab authors writing mlm romances" and nobody thinks about the fact that romance in general is dominated by women and books by women are more likely to be marketed as young adult and romance.
I'm so glad I'm seeing more "do you want another kit connor situation" in comments section as that person that was always bringing up becky and how real people can't queerbait (not to mention all the others this has happened to)
I appreciate you very much!!
Thank you for what you said about ace people! I know way too many people who buys into the "but you don’t suffer" discourse and it’s seriously heartbreaking, firstly because if you actually listen to ace people you’ll realize they suffer, but also because isn’t the goal of us fighting for our rights is so anyone doesn’t have to suffer? What is the purpose of fighting for suffering to not be part of the gay experience if we’re gonna discredit people who doesn’t suffer??!!! Blows my mind
I find a lot of the acephobic arguments mirror biphobic ones. Basically, you're only "really queer" when you're in a gay relationship (and thus face discrimination based on being in a gay relationship).
@@divergentdreamer Yes the amount of biphobia passing off as humor on socials is quite alarming…
@@divergentdreamerYes! This, absolutely. I’m bi, aroace, and agender. By this point I’m almost ready to give up and identify as tired. Trying to interact with the queer community, my own damn community, while learning to understand myself better through the years means I’ve lived through the same vitriol multiple times. My personal least favorite thing is that bisexuality and asexuality have both been smeared at different times as inherently transphobic, which is utter nonsense misinformation but made online queer spaces so hostile they became deeply harmful and essentially inaccessible for periods of time. It’s exactly the same rhetoric.
@@VexVerity I wonder how much of it is the changing definition (or composition) of community itself. "The queer community" used to be defacto just people who were very out in a very specific way. Involved in same sex relationships most or all of the time and spending time in community with other people who were doing the same thing. Gay bars, lesbian book shops, all of that. In-person get togethers among people who were mostly facing the same challenges and having the same experiences.
But now it's more about identity. Mostly-closeted people, bi people in relationships that aren't same sex, ace people, nonbinary people who might not "look (or act) queer". All us invisibles. We weren't part of the community back then, and we didn't have the same experiences. All of us looking for that community we lack, in order to make sense of and give some kind of solidarity to our own versions of "the queer experience", and being rejected because we were never part of that community before and our experiences aren't the right ones. Nobody cares about your "identity", you poser. How many times have you been bashed? You know?
To the “but you don’t suffer” people, in the words of Dolly Parton, get down off that cross cause someone else needs the wood
I so much don't understand this. If an author is limited to characters who exactly match their own demographics, then their fictional world is impoverished and unrealistic. An author finds their characters and follows them. You don't go in and say, well I have this straight Jewish woman and this Black gay man. You find the characters and then find out about them. If they all have to be just like you, then all you can make is an autobiography. It's so stupid.
that’s not so much the criticism… it’s more about perspective characters or stories that hinge on a marginalised identity theme.
it’s definitely not perfect when strictly applied, but there is some good in there. for example, it encourages ownership, authenticity and uplifts marginalised artists.
@@caitie226 But in that case, marginalised artists -- if they can live off their art I don't even see if their marginalisation is real -- could only speak from a marginalised perspective about marginalised characters and events. This is to say that I agree a lot with @Cat_Woods
@@LisaSimpsonRules That’s an interesting perspective.
I believe that the assumption is that marginalised people have an identity or experience poorly understood in the broader culture. However a non-marginalised identity is not poorly understood or misrepresented, so a marginalised person has enough exposure to present this identity well. You may feel that this principle holds better in some cases than others.
I’m not sure what this has to do with whether their marginalisation is real though. For example, one of the creators of the Little Mermaid was gay and incorporated a character based off a drag queen (Ursula). He was able to make a living from his art, but he still faced discrimination and died of AIDS before treatment was available. It would be difficult to say he did not experience marginalisation despite his success…
@@caitie226 As I said in another comment on this video, my perspective comes from somebody who's an amateur writer, who has to make a living by means of having a job for a company, not from my art (I'm not saying mine s good art, but nevertheless of quality, it exists). Obviously I have to appropriate, some of the characters I've written about are the complete opposite of me in terms of age, race, sexuality, education, political ideology, gender religion, nationality and have done things that I disapprove strongly of. That's the fun of it. As I said, to say that this portrayal is good, bad, so-so, or even offensive, that's fair game, but I'm defending my right to talk about whatever and whoever I want to talk about in my fiction.
@@LisaSimpsonRules Hmm, I’m not sure you’ve really engaged with the argument here. The authentic authorship principle is interesting, but very few people would seek to apply it in the way you’re suggesting.
All I can say is that I have read a lot of bad (misrepresentative, inauthentic, or offensive) fiction about a disability that I have, and this principle captures something that is an important consideration for writers. Imagination is not a reliable tool to understand other, real people. Even if strictly policing what people write is not a solution people favour.
What I’m saying, is that if you can’t understand why people would suggest this principle, then you may not be as good at understanding marginalised perspectives as you seem to feel you are. Ironically, this would probably just weaken your writing!
Like I say, I’m not advocating for policing what people write. I’m just suggesting the alternate perspective for you to consider-people have sought many ways to address this. If you enjoy understanding characters who you vehemently disagree with, then I’m sure this will be of interest to you.
One of the aspects of speculation about sexuality and pressuring and forcing people to come out that keeps nagging me is the heteronormativity and the gender normativity.
Any man who even so much as glances at something feminine is gay, and usually this is something coming from the phobes. Why is the call coming from inside of the house with this sh!t? Why are we suddenly reinforcing gender stereotypes? It often really dances the line of drifting into transphobia and misogyny. And like, aren't we trying to stop that sh!t?
I thought we were, but apparently I was wrong, and we can put men and women into two neat categories with zero overlap, and never shall the pink and blue touch. And when they do you MUST be queer.
I might be simplifying and overgeneralising, but to me it really feels like an immature or possibly uninformed take on gender and sexuality.
I've made those mistakes as well, of assuming people's gender or sexuality based on appearance, and then I learned better.
All of it is more fluid and more varied, and gender expression, gender, sexuality, all of it, is not limited or defined by wearing a dress or being married to someone of a different sex. And it feels very limiting to try and make that the way we define gender or sexuality.
I was one of the early fans (I remember how excited I was by Becky's very first tumblr post about the movie!) and I remember how cozy and wholesome and queer(!) the fandom was at the time and how strange I felt when the movie came out and the public opinion became "it's for the straights" when I had found my little (very much not-straight) internet corner of friends through the fandom. It was very invalidating honestly.
I was there too! one of the first fandoms where I felt like I truly belonged, like I had a place. and she's always been so sweet
the movie reviews left a rage in my soul that hasn't left since, and it's sad because even if from a non biased perspective I could agree to some of that, it was just an adaptation, there was so much to becky's work that didn't make it there
i love how she navigates THE discourse in imogen, obviously. it's truly one of the best books ive ever read
Ahhh--this makes me so happy!!
This video popped up in my feed tonight and it was so strange, as it's a topic I'd been talking about with friends very recently. The most shocking part to me about the backlash Becky received is that she'd essentially put in the work for years to affirm queer people, to add to intellectual resources for queer people, to make therapy spaces safe for queer people...AND YET still got an onslaught of harassment from (in particular) cis gay men. As a queer, trans and disabled person, I have to admit that it's exhausting to see the inevitable waves of backlash against ostensibly female creators from people who claim to represent those like myself. Personally speaking, if Becky had NEVER come out or didn't identify as queer, she's still someone whose voice and good works do more overall good than people like James Somerton who made it a mission to do actual harm to people like her. I hope Becky is doing well these days, and I hope her experience won't deter others from sharing their creative output.
I’m there with you two lol I was fighting for trans women DAILY never questioning why lol
This is the first time I've heard the term queer baiting used to refer to the way an individual celebrity conducts themselves in public...my immediate reaction was "oh, God, let's not go there." It makes sense to call out queer baiting in media but how much an individual wants to say about their own romantic or sexual life should really be up to them, no?
I haven't begin to seriously question my identity until late 20s so this speaks to me, the anxiety, too. On top of that I am just a very private person. Being a member of a community that's queer-friendly while not explicitly or exclusively queer I heard all the stories and experiences and "wittnessed" coming outs... I had this idea like there's a linear to-do list: I have to go through this, then this and then finally this and I become certified queer and everyone, including myself, will be satisfied and in the meantime I was kinda jealous of those who finished the list. It took me a while to realise I don't actually have to do anything... It definitely helps I'm a nobody.
I was the only out kid in 6th grade, part of how my mom (a children’s librarian) showed me she supported me was bringing me queer books, Simon Vs. the Homosapiens agenda had just come out, it was the only queer book I really connected to. I re-read it over and over. Which peace and love after reading leah on the offbeat I fully assumed you were queer and just didn’t realize it, because as a lesbian I related, there’s noooo way a straight woman wrote that are you kidding.
(I read Leah on the offbeat right when it came out, and was lined up for the movie as well. I felt that the movie felt a little more “straight-palatable,” but you’re clearly an author not a producer/casting director.
This is my favorite compliment, and I am such a dodo
@@beckyalbertalli1955 I loved Leah on the Offbeat! Although I was already in my early twenties it found me at a time when I was still figuring myself out and I related a lot to Leah :)
I'm so sorry people treated you so badly ❤
41:37 the idea/feeling that i'm lying by has absolutely kept me in the closet about my transness longer than i would have liked
The developmental process of coming out to oneself for bisexuals can be so complex. Appreciate this interview and how Matt handles the conversation with such care and humor.
i love her so much.
so many younger people don’t get how different it was in the 90s. i know i grew up in a mormon household and i excused my crushes on women until my 30s!
For the record, asexual people do still face discrimination, even though it's not as dramatic or obvious as what other queer identities go thorough. Putting aside the corrective rape and feeling like we can't be honest about our lack of sexual attraction with doctors or therapists out of fear of being pathologized, there's just the subtle struggle of receiving the message that there's something important just *missing* in us over and over again for all of our lives. It's especially difficult for men, who are assumed to be very sexual by default and are seen as lesser if they haven't had sex. And it can make it hard to engage with the greater queer community when your inclusion feels more like an obligation than eager acceptance, I've heard that the bi experience is often similar in that way.
Thank you so much for talking about this. I love Love Simon! That book and movie really helped me feel more comfortable about being queer in middle school in 2018 and I've always thought it got too much hate.
wow saw this episode and immediatly clicked, love your show so much, and this is a first for me catching a video 1 min after it publishes
There's honestly so much discrimination between queers themselves. I generally dont talk about my Sexuality or pursue people of my gender because sometimes folks just make some ass backwards logic about me not being queer because i dont do something stereotypical. My favorite example is I'm not queer because I listened to freddie gibs, Kendrick lamar and emeniem but not mitski
I watched Love, Simon when I was just barely trying to figure out my own bisexuality. It was the first time I had really seen a story with queerness front and center and I really related to Simon’s feelings and fear and his acceptance arc.
After watching it and feeling just a little seen I saw all the backlash and people saying that it wasn’t really queer and it was a movie for straight people and it messed with me. It made me question my sexuality, made me feel like an imposter, it was a super invalidating experience.
In a similar vein I read Imogen, obviously and I have never felt more seen nor related to a character more. That book really encapsulated what it was like discovering my bisexuality when no one was willing to hold a space for me.
So thank you Becky for using your experiences to help me feel more seen and validated and I’m sorry so many people made it so horrible and difficult for you.
Edit: I also like that Love, Simon wasn’t super heavy and just a Rom-Com that just happened to be gay because it gave me hope that I could feel normal and have normal experiences some day. I watched it with my religious mom and the sympathy she had for Simon made me realize that maybe I would be okay some day. We need diverse queer stories, which means happy endings and simple lives have a place in queer media.
when love simon first came out i was 13. i knew i was gay and i was terrified to come out to my parents. i always knew in the back of my mind they'd be supportive, and really wouldn't think much of it, but that didn't help much lol. i watched the movie soon after it went on streaming (didn't dare ask for a theater ticket) and i absolutely bawled my eyes out. i only watched it a couple times, but i was honestly obsessed, and couldn't get it out of my head. i even stole a copy (on accident!) from my english teacher, which i still have and still haven't read. anyways, the movie gave me a push in the right direction. simon's parents are like mine, a little more liberal than average. seeing them react the same way i knew mine would, not the way i feared, really set in stone that i was gonna be okay. i came out the next year to my mom, dad, and step-mom. none of them were surprised :-)
There's such an easy solution that does not include harrassment: If you don't feel comfortable supporting straight authors, musicians, etc. then start researching out queer people and support their work instead of spending all this time speculating about and harrassing straight, questioning and closeted people. There's plenty out queer creators out there. If you so desperately want more representation, then give your money to the people already providing it and make THEM popular. The more people are out AND successful, the more people will feel comfortable to come out too. I want people to come out because they want to and I want closeted queer and questioning people to create queer media without having to fear it will out them or they'll be torn to shreds. I want people to explore their sexuality without fear and without having to immediately put a label on it. And I want straight people to include queer characters in their works as well!
I'm 26 and I've gone from thinking I was straight to identifying as bisexual to identifying as a lesbian to right now still identifying as a lesbian but also thinking I'm probably on the asexual spectrum. Many people don't have their sexuality figured out, some never find a label that perfectly fits, others know their label from an early age and keep it forever - let people be HUMAN.
Great episode! While i also dont agree with campaigns targetting actors doing queer roles, there is a perspective missing though: that out queer actors are still often sidelined after them coming out. Defs not an actor issue but on the casting agents and producers and big corporations. But its a systemic issue that we can’t fight on individual art projects
More than anything, we need to all learn to apologies quicker and forgive more quickly. This story is so sweet, the world needs more understanding. Good on both of you guys❤❤❤
I recently discovered your podcast, and have binged through previous episodes over the past few days.
Thank you for posting, looking forward to more 😊
I feel like if we want to rid ourselves of heteronormativity that we need to start living that way ourselves. It shouldn't matter what someone else might label themselves and we need to stop asking. Either someone voluntarily decides to label themselves or they don't. If you really must, then just assume that everyone is bisexual (or pansexual) by default. That way people can live their lives and date who they want without it being some big revelation when they do. If someone really identifies with the straight label then it's their burden to come out to us. We shouldn't automatically apply it for them. 💅
Oh, and if someone starts pushing garbage queerbaiting narratives, then call them out for their old-school heteronormative trash takes 🤣
i was a young, closeted teen when the movie came out and gotta admit it took a while til i heard aboiut the "queerbaiting" accusations. The discourse that was going on around me was mostly straight people complaining that it was made into "such a big deal the main character was gay". Even allies said those things, thinking they were supporting the queer community, all becaus the movie didnt tell the coming out story from the perspective of a straight person, but from the perspective of a gay teen who is struggling with how it changes his life and makes him different. I find that relatable. At 21 I'm still not out to my family, because I don't want to change their perception of me.
I finally got to watch Love, Simon on Netflix now these days and it made that part of me, that was 15 and felt she couldn't talk back to straight people saying "I just don't get why they have to make a whole movie about it" so happy. It's not a story for straight people. It's part of our story. Thank you, Becky
I know this was just a passing comment, but I think it's important to emphasize that, while I agree that queerness should not be gatekept by how oppressed you are, ace people are also forced to go through conversion therapy, corrective r*pes, may have their marriages annulled by some governments and are also constantly alienated from both cishet and queer society.
We should allow straight people to write gay stories, to play gay characters, to explore that side of the world. Tbh, I don’t think Becky coming out as a bisexual woman makes her more “qualified” to write a book about a gay high school boy. And what I mean by that is that what qualifies you is a genuine, good-faith interest in telling queer stories, and anyone can have that, regardless of their identity. And I think she does have that, and that should be enough.
I agree, although I think her being LGBT does give her a bit more personal insight into how her characters might be feeling, I also think the experience of a bi girl vs a gay boy are so different that it doesn’t make her the best person to tell that story… Still, I think Love Simon was an important first step in popularizing LGBT stories and I’m glad it was successful!
I really don't understand how the book could be viewed as queerbait. It was not queerbait because Simon and Blue expressed MANY TIMES how they were gay. Queerbait is if there is no queer representation, so the author puts in a queer subtext, but her book had no "subtext", they were just gay, which was stated many times, and they got together in the end. Also, I don't understand why the queer representation was considered wrong. Not all queer coming outs are sad and awful like people tend to think, coming outs can be happy too (Simon's coming out was not happy because he was forced out of the closet and mocked online, but his family immediately accepted him). I'm sure many people can identify with that, everyone has different experiences. I don't know how anyone could've hated on that book and thought that it was queerbaiting??? I always considered Becky to represent the mom in that book, who was very accepting. The hate just sounds very forced and I don't have any criticism with the book, it's one of my favourite books. Any author can write about any sexuality if they understand enough about it because at the end of the day, it's fiction and it's representation. It represents me even if it doesn't represent you, and that doesn't make it a bad book.
Its wild cus after Leah on the Offbeat came out my teenage brain was like ''Becky isnt straight, no way'' And then I was proven right. Only a fellow sapphic can write the longing girlies have for other girlies
this was a really important conversation. Thank you for facilitating it, Matt, and huge thanks to Becky for sharing your personal life so candidly even though you never should have had to. I really relate to your experience as someone who still avoids using the terms queer, bisexual or genderqueer despite never relating to straight communities and feeling so at home with my queer friends. I never feel gay enough with my predominantly masc presenting AMAB partner (who also deals with the exact same feelings as myself and like he doesn't "deserve" to come out as nonbinary) and my frilly dresses. But why does any of that matter? If I feel the mostly comfortable in queer spaces, that's where I belong.
Gotta love it when ppl are forced to come out.... like Billie Eilish
Kit Connor :(
poor little rich girl lol
@user-pl6bh4bd7q oh please. She wasn't born a spoiled brat and this isn't a small thing. Ignoring someone being forced to come out is not okay. She is one example and a very clear one. If we are discussing how people are forced to come out to avoid cries of "queerbating!" Merely as a consequence for existing, then she is a good example.
Also she's a woman.
And the point is that it's horrible when people are forced to out themselves. She is one example. Focusing on her only is problematic
@@calvinpittser2975
half the country cant pay their rent. trans people cant get hired. and im supposed to feel bad for a millionaireYT girl that felt uncomfortable?
sorry but billie eilish is not gay rights lol
it’s very hillary clinton feminism
@@calvinpittser2975
yt deleted my comment…
half the country cant pay their rent.transpeople cant get hired. and im supposed to feel bad a millionaireWyte girl who felt uncomfortable?
billie is notgayrights.
she is hillary clinton feminism.
I'm not usually interested in romcoms, but Love, Simon is one I can definitely say I love. I also try to avoid hype-trains, so I don't often see movies until much later when the commotion dies down, which sometimes bites me when the DVDs suddenly become harder to find.
Anyways, I can appreciate that it has a much less doom-and-gloom tone; we get more than enough of that everywhere else that it's no secret. Frankly, it's a bit more of what communities should strive for, where Simon _didn't_ have to face such life-altering rejection once he was outed. Even his friends, bad as their reactions were, weren't angry at him for being gay as they were for being toyed with, even if it was on account of Simon being blackmailed. Plus, even though it doesn't express just how dangerous being outed can be, it's not like it completely ignores negative reactions. I like that moment Simon flips the scenario in his head on straight people having to come out. I also like the secondary commentary on social media gossip; ironic given how some people went after Becky and celebrities generally.
Having re-read Imogen Obviously recently and only ever having known the gist of this situation, hearing it all in Beckys Words was really enlightening and heartbreaking at the same time. Thank you so much for your strength and your amazing books Becky!
When I was 17, my parents violated my privacy, found out I was gay, and then cornered me with the evidence. They forced me out of the closet in a way that is very painful to think about even now. I saw Love Simon in theaters a year later, and the scene where Simon yells at Martin (who violated his privacy and then outed him) made me cryyyy and still does. It articulated my sense that something had been stolen from me and externalized the anger I was too scared to feel towards my parents in a way that made me feel recognized. I do think the movie has some flaws, but I will always have a soft spot for it because it gave me that gift.
oof, i had ground floor seats for this one and it was not fun. looking forward to watching your take.
this is so strange to me, especially with actors - straight people can play queer people and vice versa. it is their job to act, not to portrait themselves. the same for authors of novels. If everyone can only write about what they themselve experienced, we would loose so much great art. when did people forget how empathy works?
Omg I didn’t realise Becky is the author of Imogen, Obviously until she mentioned it at the end. That book had me crying because I felt so validated. I only recently came out as bi while in a longterm relationship with me boyfriend. I always feel like it’s not important to come out because what does it matter, I hope to marry my partner so I don’t expect to ever get into a relationship with a woman, but that doesn’t take away my feelings nor does it erase my bisexuality. Still coming to terms with it but Imogen, Obviously was a big part of me feeling valid. Thatnk you Becky for all that you do and I will eagerly wait for more books to come ❤
By this logic, the entire genres of fiction are nothing more than spacebaiting and appropriating fantasy characters' voices, since the author cannot possibly have lived experience of them. Seriously, whatever happened to good writers doing research and immersing themselves in other people's stories to become a conduit for their emotions? Is empathy not the cornerstone of both sharing stories and engaging with them?
when i first discovered i was queer at age 12, i had no one i could identify with. i literally knew no other queer people. i felt so alone and deeply closeted, and simon was the first piece of queer media i found. i hid the book at the bottom of my drawer and read it until it was falling apart. even though it didn't perfectly encapsulate my experience as a lesbian, it brought me so much comfort and joy that i desperately needed. i got more into sapphic ya fiction in high school, but i found this book at the time i most needed it. i'm now an out gnc lesbian who surrounds herself with the queer community at university, and i am eternally grateful to becky for giving me (and many other queer kids, i'm sure) that lifeline.
Man, that tweet at 45:35 hit me out of nowhere because that is the exact reasoning which prevented me from realising my own bi-ness for quite a while. Well, until my early 20ies, I wasn't even really aware that it was an option to begin with. Luckily I was in some very open-minded groups at the time, which helped out quite a bit. It still took me until my late 20ies to fully accept my bisexuality, because of a lot of stereotypes around it. And now, a few years later I am happy in a hetero marriage, so I get to experience the wonderful world of "see it was just a phase, you are straight after all." Well, at least I don't face much bigotry from people that don't know me, so there's that.
I am a firm believer that people cannot queerbate. Humans are fluid. Claiming certainty from someone is counterproductive to the human experience and limits people from self discovery, exploration and reflection. It is ridiculous to demand a coming out from someone, public figure or not.
I feel a lot of queer discourse has turned sour over the years and I've had to distance myself from a lot of it.(especially on twitter) It's as if queer pain has become more valued than queer pride. We almost don't allow ourselves happy love stories. That there has to be some kind of tragedy associated with us. Queer pain of course is important to recognize, but making it so integrated with queer identity itself I feel is holding us back from experiencing the joy of queer love, diverse gender expression and identity. I would have loved to have grown up with YA gay romance stories. Where is my "cringe" gay teen romcom that I can rewatch and revel in nostalgia every year? Let people have fun movies that aren't all trauma.
When Love, Simon came out I was at the first grade of High School and was not out to my parents, only to friends. I cried a lot by the end of the movie. Of course it was a romanticized version of a coming out story, but I guess what got to 14-year-old me was that rather fairytale-ish, “”ideal”” coming out story that I kind of wished would be mine.
As an amateur writer, I would like to think for myself that no topic is off limits. But there is a book club which I attend on which appropriation is heavily criticised. In the debates I tend to say that, if you take appropriation to its limits, nobody can write about anything than their own past experiences and themselves: no other person / characteristics can be explored. That is so limiting for creators! Humans have empathy and dialogue, and those things are the only ones that may save us. Appropriation in this sense can be done well or badly, of course, and that X author is giving a wrong image, or that a portrayal is unrealistic, can be said, and sometimes it should be said, and that's fair game.
I don't even see much of the point in putting this type of barriers. And then the same people that yell at creators for appropriation, then complain that they are not being represented enough in popular media. There is a contradiction there, in my opinion. And nowadays it seems like 'damned if you do, damned in you don't'.
I can't say it was for me (the movie, I have not read the book). I would not call it queerbaiting, that's a mostly useless term at this point anyway. and I obviously do not think someone has to be of any particular sexuality to write about queer characters. but it did feel very "safe" in a way that I think would be very easily-digestible and non-threatening to a straight audience, but that I could not relate to either now (understandably, I'm an adult) or from my experiences around the age of the characters.
all that said, it's not like rom-coms have to be remotely realistic or relatable (not really what the genre is known for at all, actually), and I'm definitely older than the target audience, and there are limits to what the market will tolerate in queer storytelling. even if I didn't personally love it, I do think it's better that the story is out there for some young queer kid to find compared to not. it probably would have been a good experience for me to see a movie like that when I was a kid. (the ferris wheel scene still bugs me a bit though. I know it was meant to be a heartwarming climax, but it felt yucky and a little voyeuristic)
my criticisms aside, Becky seems like a nice lady, and harassing her was obviously really shitty and uncalled for. people shouldn't do that sort of thing, the stakes around a piece of fiction are pretty much never going to anywhere near high enough to justify it. and absolutely nothing good ever comes from getting aggressively nosy and trying to police other people's gender/sexuality. (and a lot of fandom sounds like a truly wild place that I'm just going to keep on staying away from)
Congratulations on the Patreon! 👏🏽
Your channel seems to be growing very fast and it’s been blessed by the algorithm!
Keep up the podcasts, long form audio content has a huge audience and your pacing and topics are really good 💘
I think anyone of any identity can and should write stories of anyone of any other identity. More people thinking about and caring about stories beyond their own experiences is good actually (imho).
Plus, I don't think it's healthy to have Hayes code style censorship of stories about marginalized people but with a progressive rhetorical coat of paint.
I also am NOT a fan of the tendency I see to assume people writing queer stories are secretly sexually deviant freaks in some way. And the fact that I keep seeing people get harassed for telling stories centering people from marginalized identities, which seems counterproductive if your goal is more visibility. We should be normalizing queer content, not less.
And because this is the uncharitable environment of a comment section on the internet: yes, of course, we should be centering stories directly from people of marginalized identities. These things aren't mutually exclusive imo.
Sorry this is so long, but this is a very touchy topic that I feel requires a little extra clarification 😅
idk why or how but your "hello, hello" gave goosebumps, in a good way
i wish i could profit off being nonbinary
This is a big thing in the KPOP fandom right now. There is a lot of fanservice and perhaps some nuance here, but coming out in the industry is practically a no go in such a conservative country. There is a group called OnlyOneOf who make music and music videos with explicitly queer themes, they've said it's about queer stuff, they are supportive and welcoming to the queer community at their events and concerts, but they havent come out publicly about their sexualities for what to me is obvious reasons, and people still ignore them when asking for queer representation in kpop, and talk about how they are queerbaitng and therefore don't count, it's infuriating lol
Loving the discussion today, I first heard of Love, Simon and Becky Albertelli in the HBomb plagiarism video. But completely feeling seizing the moment when your baby first actually sleeps thru the night! 😂 And further, I swear to god, as a Gen X person (and normally, I hate the stupid generation distinctions but) one way we were better off was that we didn't have social media, and there wasn't such a fixation on who was holding hands with who, or who was making out with who. Granted, I grew up in NY, but honestly, I believe *everyone* is on a sexual spectrum. I consider myself straight, but have had serious crushes on and hookups with girls, which I legitimately enjoyed, loved being with those women, but for the most part I love men. I wouldn't consider myself bisexual, but I'm so frustrated with this sort of militant attitude about how people MUST come out if they have ANY sense that they might like to explore a relationship, whether sexual or emotional with someone of the same sex. And then to be called a poser, or baiter for pursuing those relationships. I think so much of the issue with social media is the drive to open their lives up to millions of people. Teenagers especially. No one needs to have their young blunderings out onto the internet, but they almost feel like they HAVE TO expose every part of their lives to millions of people, and they DON'T! Also Matt's nails and eyes this video? ❤ I can't have long nails, bc I destroy any manicure in 5 min, but I'm going to try to emulate the natural eye you've got going on!
Imogen Obviously was in the list of book I was considering listening to the audiobook of and this podcast just convinced me to go buy it immediately.
This topic is very important to me. I'm closeted eastern european lesbian artist. I have a big passion for art and storytelling and drawing my own queer comic or graphic novel IS my biggest dream. Yet with modern internet culture i'm also legit terrified of it because outing could ruin my entire life. And as i see the same situation is whith a lot of non western queers. We need normalise back not knowing anything about creators.
I prefer 10000 "straight people" who are pretending to be gay for profits than one outed author.
30:55 True. Mine coming out was awful as well, but watching smb having better one was very therapeutic for me... It was like""Oh, if only my parents were like this"
I had no idea she was trolled to such an extent. I love hearing her insights what an astonishing redemption arc.
I agree that people shouldn't be defined by their pain, but for the record the people who say ace people can't be hurt haven't been told they need to "get over it" or they will never be loved by their parents and dismissed when they try to come out
When i watched love, simon i related to having your coming out moment talking out of you, and was happy for we having a happy gay story instead of painful homophobia
As a closeted queer teen I got to watch love Simon on a plane trip I took by myself. I cried my eyes out and it changed my life in being able to start consuming queer media. Even if you had been straight, in my eyes there was still a large positive impact in representation! I’m sorry you got pressured into coming out, you’d think we’d eventually learn as a community about not harassing people about their sexuality, from you, Dan and Phil etc. all the way to Kit Connor the fact that people can’t have their own private lives is just disappointing.
I feel like the prime example of this is the fallout of "helicopter story". The Creator dropped out of public life, stopped their transition, despite winning a Hugo. No one knows who they are and they deserve that privacy, but they also didn't deserve to get attacked for being creative while queer.
UGH I LOVE IMOGEN OBVIOUSLY SO MUCH
i’ve personally had zero romantic experience but am bi and also went through an extreme ally phase… although i haven’t had the specific kind of trauma they’re talking about here that book speaks to me SO MUCH especially with all the biphobia i experience 😭
I'm turning 30 next month and only now figuring out my sexuality and gender. And I've gotta say, this discourse and witch hunting makes me feel pretty awful about it. Especially given my age.
I can't imagine going through what I've gone through over the past four years in the public eye. I've been pretty loud and public about what I've been dealing with when it comes to friends and family, but in those cases it's been my choice who I do and don't include in that.
I can't imagine struggling and overcoming all of my internalized queerphobia and religious programming, getting to the place where I can say out loud the words "I'm a girl" or "I'm bi" only to have a thousand randos on the internet tell me I'm lying or performing because I'm too old or because I'm married to a woman or because I use she/they pronouns or whatever else.
I've had to work very hard to get to this place. And if I'm real, every step of the way I've questioned whether or not I'm fake. I've been fortunate to have validating people around me who help to assure me that yes, I am real, and I do count as fill in the blank. Even though it took me this long to get here. Maybe if those voices had been replaced with ones of condemnation instead, I wouldn't have gotten here at all.
i actually never got around to reading or watching her stuff bc of The Discourse™️, but i think i wanna go back and give it a shot
I would just like to add that (while not necessary imo to be included in the lgbtq+ community) ace and aro people do experience abuse and persecution for their ace and/or aro-ness - I just don't think it's very well publicized or discussed.
I have to admit the title and the thumbnail made me nervous to watch the video. As a fujoshi/danmei lover, I am pretty tired of hate dogpiled onto straight women for enjoying BL. But I'm glad I clicked. This was informative!
I really related to Becky when she said that she felt she was the straight ally and ignoring all the neon signs lol. Even the part when she talks about minimizing your attraction to girls. (internalized heteronormativity, much?) BEEN THERE. I'm happy for her now, she's an author I can relate to! And will def check out her work, not much of a YA/romance girly myself but I'll give her a chance. Great episode Matt!! It was very insightful, I found myself nodding along several times.
As much as it saddens me, as someone who can basically never come out I think I need to lessen the queer coding of the characters in the book I’m co writing. I’m glad I heard all of this and I hope one day the world will have changed enough for characters to be queer without the author having to put themself ❤️