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LGBT Conservatives (w/ Contrapoints)
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2023
- LGBT conservatives: Why? How? Where did they come from? What can we learn from them, and how can we dismantle the LGBT conservative that lives within all of us? Natalie Wynn (aka Contrapoints) helps us psychoanalyze one of the more confusing political positions of our time. Jeffree Star makes an appearance, for better or for worse.
Indulge in Natalie’s work: / contrapoints
Find us:
/ abitfruitypod
/ mattxiv
Produced by Samantha Land: / samalander
Edited by Justin Bretter: / fieldsobriety
Just casually having Natalie as your FIRST GUEST is such a power move
Not really
@@alexxx5749 oh, okay.
I think it's cool too.
@@alexxx5749 its ok to have wrong opinions no ones perfect
@@alexxx5749 Hush child
Not the queen mother herself omg
Correct. Emphasis on “not”
Right? For free on RUclips? Is this an hallucination??
@@NinaNeko4shut
@@NinaNeko4L+ ratio+ yo mama
@@NinaNeko4L+ ratio+ yo mama
“Theres always gonna be a job for queer people who say homophobia is gay people’s fault” EXACTLY
What are "queer people"?
google is free@@yarpenzigrin1893
*EEYUP*
We could fill in the blank with probably any marginalized group. If you perform a show reassuring bigots that they're right, you'll never be out of work and probably never go broke.
Same thing with anti-feminism, like how tradwives make money
I hope this is ok, but every time soneone says "Ron DeSantis" I hear "Rhonda Santis" and I hope there is a drag performer somewhere who is not sleeping on this. It would be a classic act.
Rhonda Sandtits is I think!
Rhonda SandTits
Lol
I hope she is out there somewhere and thriving
Genius
Part of the reason that Jeffree Star is a grifter now is that he has money. His priority is protecting his wealth and does not face the same oppression that a working class queer would. He now has more in common with wealthy conservatives than other queer people.
Edit: if I had known this would have become a popular comment I would have worded it better lmao. Beliefs don't matter if they don't align with your actions.
this
Money will corrupt you if you don't cherish your working class roots
Wait, Jeffree Star is conservative? Are you sure? I searched it, and I could be wrong, but I've never seen anything about him announcing his conservatism.
I do notice that a lot of leftists seem to think anything not politically correct left is far right. I'm a tr**ny and I've been called a "conservative" countless times, and I'm NOT. I'm literally anything but, but people call me that because I'm not woke.
The only thing I could find is that he thinks new pronouns are stupid, which isn't necessarily conservative. My entire social circle are racial minority LGBT and we ALL think it's stupid and don't get it too. And we're NOT conservative.
@@briannab4770 Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
@@gc.96 - Haha, okay then. Never voted conservative in my life, TOTALLY opposite in my psychological disposition, have zero family members that are conservative. And you have literally not a fucking clue about who I am, nor do I, you. We've never met. Take care.
I can't believe that Jeffree Star accidentally found a way to stop gun violence by making a pink gun
He’s sacrificing himself for be cause
gun restriction law: only bright pink guns allowed
Wonder how effective would that be lol
We did it! 😂💀
@@Medytacjusz that’s a genius idea.
This comment made me chuckle
"it's so spineless it's amoebic" I am in LOVE with this woman.
Which one is a woman?
She’s literally a poet
@@yarpenzigrin1893 please seek help.
@@yarpenzigrin1893the one that looks like, acts like and refers to herself as a woman. Grow up
@@yarpenzigrin1893 if you are that dumb just watch the damn video and you'll know.
It speaks a lot of Natalie that she was "cancelled" for being "non-binary-phobic" because of an (admittedly careless) mistake, but to this day she skillfully and passionately defends us. Some people get "cancelled" and double down and drift right, some give up and abandon their platform, she did neither and clearly always supported us all along despite any imperfections
that is actually still so sweet. i didn't think of her like that.
Its been 4 years, you contrapoints ass kissers need to stop babying her and get over it, especially since the nonbinary people that criticised her got 100x more harassment then her.
Not as empatheic as should be
@@hiidenkiuasit really affected her mental wellbeing though
I don't think she ever admitted it as a mistakie, and rightly so.
6:32 honestly making guns queer so that conservatives will cancel them could be a hilarious way to finally ban guns
Needing a gun to feel big/safe whatever is sth, but it’s not 'alpha‘ 😅 rather weak tbh
like in Bojack Horseman
@@saffronst3612
Hey arent you the horse from horsin around
That's lowkey the only reason that there is decent gun regulation in California... when the Black Panthers started getting guns for their safety the government shut that shit down.
So original…
It reminds of how so many women go through a "not like other girls phase" where we try to survive a sexist society by saying "Well I don't like pink or wear makeup or listen to pop music or any of those GIRLY things society hates, so please stop hating me please."
That's what Contrapoints was saying when she said the "pick me" girls.
100%. I used to describe myself on dating profiles as (and was proud of) a sports and beer loving, virtually unoffendable woman. I’ve done a lot of things I was uncomfortable with because I thought it would make guys like me.
It's almost like a weird kind of virtue signaling.
@@knithackerI feel like those are a bit different at the end of the day
I was the same, and it never made me safe, happy or anything. I was a miserable little bitch that missed out on some great female friendships cause "I'm such a tomboy, girls are just too much drama"
(You poor dumb creature, you didn't not like girls, you REALLY liked girls. XD)
I honestly feel so bad for Dave Rubin's husband and family. Like imagine seeing some guy trash your entire relationship and then your husband just sits there and then says "that's fine." Like how embarrassing and disheartening that must be.
Don’t feel to bad for the husband. Apparently it was him who pushed Rubin into conservatism in the first place.
I do feel very bad for their kids tho. I can’t imagine having dads who are such spineless caitiffs that they’d refuse to defend their family against bigoted attacks from strangers
His husband is his producer. They're both that kinda weak willed
@twistysunshine Honestly that makes more sense, otherwise there would have to be problems in that relationship lol -- I know I wouldn't want to be married to a guy with Dave Rubin's job
yeah
I am more sad for the kids than the husband, I am sure his husband is enjoying that grifting money if he is willing to stay with him.
Seeing Natalie without an elaborate costume on is like realizing your favorite fictional character is played by an actor.
My girlfriend and I were at the public pool and this kid wanted to play with us (we couldn't see his parents anywhere around), so we played with him for a little bit. But the whole time we were worried that someone watching would see an obviously queer couple interacting with a child and think we're groomers. We just wanted to be nice to this kid and not ignore him, it's sad we had to worry about people treating us as predators...
Regardless of my fear, I proudly show love for my girlfriend in public. I hold her hand, I call her cute names, I kiss her cheek, I cuddle up next to her. I won’t be intimidated into hiding myself. These people who hate us and call us groomers will have to just get over it.
reality check-people are only scared of men around children .. the 'grooming' accusations only come from the whole education thing
@@noklarokWhat are you referring to when you say “whole education thing”?
@@noklarok OP didn't describe their gender or sex, so your "reality check" is presumptive and useless in addition to being false. 🥱
OP, it's a you problem
You experienced "male privilege" hope you liked it.
I know Natalie always has impeccable backgrounds and sets but can we talk just about her decor in her office? Truly a decorating genius
wonderful opulence
@lulucool45 You own everything!
honestly it's amazing I thought it was a zoom background at first lool
The only thing i dont like is that pink thing at the top middle what is that ? Doesnt fit the rest of the room
@@lautaroescarlon7501Pretty sure thats a painting lol. Kinda rude
I explained Blaire white to my sister, and she was like "Isn't that like a chicken working for KFC?"
she's more like a poultry butcher
she's basically someone who thinks children cant consent to life-changing medical procedures (that may or may not be led by their munchhausen, NPD parent) and wait a couple years.
evil, i know.
@@user-iy6sk2qt2git's not about freethinking tho, it's about her own self-hatred and attempting to be accepted by those who hold power (and money) in our society. It's ironic because they'd turn on her in a heartbeat once she's no longer the token conservative trans woman. Freethinking is about questioning what we've been conditioned to believe and the people who perpetuate those ideals.
@@videowifie she can be that AND just horrible in other ways, almost like an actual person 😮
She's one of the examples where not every alphabet member has lost their sanity. Unfortunately it's not enough to generalise the rainbows.
The saddest Blair White moment I have seen was when she was in this panel with a group of really bigotted christian nationalists who were saying stuff that completely negated her right to basically even exist and she just sat there and said absolutely nothing.
Why is that sad? They are entitled to their awful views. She respects their right because she's a fing ADULT.
@@agrupnia Apparently, it seems like she instigated that incident by crossing over the barrier where the anti-Trump protestors were. I absolutely don't think she should've been attacked, but some common sense could've helped in this situation.
Do you feel the same about drug addicts? You're just giving attention to someone who's asking for it instead of those who deserve it...
That's pretty pathetic.@@agrupnia
@@ALotOfCancerthat is so completely random talk about a straw man argument. Blair white is in the video therefore a subject of this discussion, this persons stance on drug addiction is completely irrelevant. Why can’t both be true??? Can a person who cares about drug addicts not make a comment about/ feel bad for Blair? Lmao it just doesn’t make any sense.
@@emomuApparently, she didn't- she was just walking and there happened to be an anti-Trump rally so she decided to just keep filming. I don't think she knew it was anti-Trump (see: she was just walking), just really bad luck.
“Well, there’s many methods of self-annihilation.” -Natalie Wynn
I couldn't not think of "The Hunger" at that part
Yeah and the far left have done more to self-annihilate and cause resentment than any other group.
Like anti white white people?
@@Leviathan762-zh4lq💀
“A large percentage of women go through some stage in their life of enthusiastically endorsing the male point of view”
I think this resonated with a lot of people because when I rewound that to quote it, the video said “most replayed part”
Goddamn, it’s like looking in a mirror 5 years ago.
There is no such thing as a male view, you're in a cult go and listen to the assimilationist they're not self-hating this whole podcast was propaganda and deeply hateful.
It’s happening right now in huge waves. Women on the political right are rallying to have the state control their pregnant bodies, and women on the left are rallying to destroy female spaces by opening them up to males.
Hilarious how people who claim there is no gender or sex binary now in this cherry-picked case acknowledge a specifically MALE point of view is a THING (the self-contradictions are adorable lol)… hmm, maybe gender and sex difference actually biologically EXIST and identify is just a personal journey that shouldn’t be politicized or pushed on children??? 🤔
Yeah, that resonated with me as well
Idk how y’all did that
As someone who's had to grow up queer in WY, Jeffree Starr pisses me off bc he can only move so safely in these spaces bc he's rich. His wealth protects him from what I've seen so many of my queer siblings suffer growing up there, and he waltzes in femme as can be, buys a fucking yak ranch (yaks... are not common in WY), gets pink guns, and yells about the rest of us being "crazy" and helps lay out the rope for the lynching more or less.
And he appears to be under the belief that they accept him bc of him throwing us under the bus- the people who hate us laugh at him actually. They don't accept him. He has money and if you kill or beat the shit out of a rich rancher you WILL get in trouble, as has always been the case. They think he's a humorous clown and the moment he isn't protected by being a rich rancher, he will be the same as the rest of us
What is WY
@@sit-insforsithis1568 Wyoming
@@sit-insforsithis1568 Wyoming.
@@sit-insforsithis1568wyoming maybe
But some of the left is legitimately crazy. And I don't think he genuinely cares whether the people accept him or not.
I'm glad I found this. It helps me understand my teenage son, who identifies as bi, but is very anti LGBT+ and has conservative views. It's hard for me as a fierce feminist.
I guess he is in the stage of opossing to parent’s ideals in order to find his own identity. Just be patient
Time to disown him. :/
@@MezzoForte4oh please, shut up
@@shesmashgrrshe probably already has since she’s his mom? And judging from the fact that she literally says he’s anti-LGBT+ and conservative, those views weren’t good
@@shesmashgrr You are the person they are talking about in the video.
Self-hatred politics is like how Just Pearly Things bends over backward to say what she thinks the misogynists want her to say, and yet, they still don't pick her.
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never has and it never will."
- Frederick Douglass
Wonder if the same can be said for Lauren Chen
@@unknownninja4430roaming millennial? Seems that way
Self-hating policy is actually the most prevalent in liberal white people.
Whenever I think of Blair White the first thing I think of is when she was on a conservative panel being told to grow out her mustache
Ah the one Bug Joel covered?
@@kostajovanovic3711 same event
Or when she was doing that “debate” with Candace Owens and Candace kept calling her “a grown man picking on women”.
If it's the same event I'm thinking of then holy shit did she come out as pathetically spineless and weak on that one. What do you expect though? A trans pick-me. What could go wrong with this formula?
Frankly I'm happy that I got therapy and realized that supporting "traditional values" as a bisexual man who mostly dates men is incredibly boneheaded.
Yaaayyy!!! Gaaaayyy!!! 🩷💜💙🌈
I’m happy about that as well. Sometimes I fear it’s some kind of irreversible state of being with no hope of changing. You have given me hope. As always, Therapy is the answer. Lol. But fr tho.
Remember when Kaitlyn Genner went to that far right republican convention?
The crowds there literally chased her out, hounded het roght back into her car, shouting the most vile slurs and hate at her the whole time. She got chased away from a public convention of her own political party... "People like you don't belong here!" They were shouting at her, calling her an 'it' to her face... crazy stuff. Honestly looked like if it wasn't for her security it might have got violent.
Anyway, watching it happen made me feel so bad for her, even though I despise her politics, i still felt for her...
But then i thought: "you brought this on yourself sista."
Not by being trans, of course, but by being a conservative fascist and pandering to their hate. You reap what you sew girl.
WTF are you talking about? There was like, one heckler. Big deal.
@@wakkablockablaw6025Pretty sure it was multiple, but the worst part is always the crowd who stares. Every icy glare feels like another person shouting obscenities at you.
@@GuiSmith Can you tell me what to type on Google to find this clip? Because I'm pretty sure what happened is nothing like what the OP described. Also, crowds stare all the time. It is the least offensive thing a crowd can do. If someone famous like Jenner was there, I would stare too.
@wakkablockablaw6025 a crowd staring at a famous person is one thing
A crowd staring and doing nothing as a person is being chased out of a place(by one or multiple people it doesn't matter) is taciturn acceptance of the behavior. Because obviously it doesn't cross a line for them, otherwise they would intervene.
please link a video of it.
“This is why conservatives like me”
…Jeffree really does live in a whole different world of delusion 🙄🤣
right? more like "that's why conservatives find me useful while still hating me"
Meanwhile, from where I sat, even the conservatives who appreciated him throwing the queer community under the bus still didn't want to touch him with a ten foot pole. It was exactly like the time Dave Rubin tried to suck up to Ben Shapiro as Ben Shapiro casually tried to shake him off his leg.
@@dinosaysrawr It’s just sad and embarrassing for Jeffree - my sympathy runs out whenever I remember the harm he is causing others in the community however
Jeffre giving off the same "if I pander to them, I'll be the last one in the gas chamber" energy that Blair White does.
@@darkgardener9577you're so smart and know what the fuck you're talking about! it is such an intelligent move to showcase this position on LGBT issues while having a Gomez Addams profile pic! you are absolutely capable of thinking critically
this topic immediately makes me think of german populist right-wing politician Alice Weidl, who's a lesbian, with a wife and two children, but is somehow aggressively anti-queer
She isnt queer, she is married to a woman shes known for 20 years
Some people are honestly so embarrassing
And her wife is also an immigrant, the irony is of the charts
@@maggie_5433 oh yeah true, i forgot about that 😅
they also live in Switzerland, right? so they don't eve pay taxes in germany euther
Ah, like the Serbian prime minister
I’m a non-binary pansexual who came out in 1997. I’m in my forties now and I want to say you both are so wonderfully educated on queer history! You guys really have an understanding of ALL our different struggles. Refreshing and I even learned some new stuff. Thank you both for this wonderful video. ❤️
non-binary as a term existed in 1997?
@@v1ped Nah, I mean, I went to a rural country highschool. I used the term Androgynous back then. We didn’t have the internet. We had Bowie, Little Richard, Annie Lennox etc though. 💖
@@v1ped non-binary always existed, gender comes from the feeling not from the specific word thats used. words like "tomboy", "butch", "femboy", "androgenous", etc are all words that were used back then to refer to people in between the gender binary. non-binary is so self-explanatory that it didnt really need to exist as a term before, people typically have just come up with their own personal term for their specific gender. "non-binary" is just a category to group people of generally non-binary genders together to describe a shared experience that became more defined in the past 20 years, where in the 90s all queer people were put more or less in the same category of like, "freak", "queer", "satanist", "groomer", but now non-binary people get a specific type of bigotry thrown at them, where other queer people have been able to achieve some conditional acceptance for being more similar to straight people. as straights became more aware of words like "lesbian" and "transgender" nonbinary people started to notice they were being put into one of two boxes, "girl gay" or "boy gay" when they didnt actually belong in those categories. so they came up with a word to describe an experience. now we have people pretending that no one ever had a non binary gender ever in the history of humanity because some young people wanted some more descriptive language. i believe what makes people so specifically enraged by "non-binary" is that it gives you no invasive personal information about what someone's anatomy might be. people will literally ask non-binary people they cant "identify" what is in their pants. what binary people dont get is how creepy it is that we have all normalized that this information about our anatomy is public knowledge a lot of the time, by using certain language and assumptions.
@@lilleopard6537 people who are non-binary aren't women, though. being non-binary isnt inherently sexist, it's a non-female, non-male identity.
@@lilleopard6537this is the craziest reach i’ve ever seen
My uncle is a conservative gay man. He was raised in a devout Catholic family. Growing up he seemed more fun and would share with us some hilarious stories of his gay adventures. But as we grew up, I noticed he started to clamp down on misogynistic bullshit like when I wore a spaghetti strap dress and developed (wait for it) BOOBS in 8th grade. He was like acting like I was diseased or something and as if I’d “fallen.” There was very much this gross purity vibe he was giving off. He really started to double down on conservative hysteria and hatred when Trump came along, along with his family. Honestly, I don’t talk to him at all anymore and the last I heard about him, he tried to drag one of my gay cousins to this disgusting Catholic gay conversion therapy thing. Thankfully she’s (my cousin) thriving and happily married to a wonderful woman 👩🏻❤️💋👩🏻 but anyways yeah, part of me thinks it might be some kind of defense mechanism that he’s conforming so hard. Another part of me doesn’t want to give any kind of justification or apology because his behavior is so atrocious and actively hurts gays.
Well, you should ask him about his gay friends, who was young but didn't made it. I guess he has lots of stories to share - about mistakes young people do and how hard it is to correct them. And that he want you and other young gay people to live longer. (And not "live fast die young" sh*t)
Lots of things that old people are against of - they attribute to the errors which they don't want young people to repeat....
Your story sounds sad and I don’t like the behavior of your uncle. But it also sounds sad, that your uncle isn’t validated by your Expectation how a gay man has to be. A funny, colorful circus clown with the duty to the absolute submission to tolerance and liberality. It’s also weird. I hope you know what I mean.
I don't say this lightly, but contrapoints saved my life. It's amazing and it gives me so much hope to know that there's someone that intelligent, eloquent, nuanced, friendly and creative out there and she's alive at the same time as I am to share her existence with us in these dark times. I love you Natalie
I am so grateful that natalie was brave enough to be vunerable about what was going on in her heart and mind to make the cringe video on youtube. its an everlasting recording of intelligent introspectivity and it brings me joy
The grand witch herself will save us all
I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with this
There are a lot of intelligent and eloquent nice people, of all genders in the world, especially in academia and research but we don't see them because they don't post entertainment.
I'm glad she helped you but idolizing someone will only lead to disappointment.
@@testest8101 i never said she's the only one and I would never burden a human being with having to live up to their fanbase's fantasies.
That said, her personality resonates with me, as with a lot of other people, clearly. Interestingly, I think Natalie is particularly hell bent - whether consciously or not - on addressing parasocial relationships and humanizing herself (including her vices and shortcomings) and not catering to an idolized image that fans may have of her.
That's why we love her! :)
Wait, that whole "for white cishet men there is not a political position they could take, where anyone would ever accuse them of being politically at odds of who they are" is blowing my mind
Hmm I don't quite agree, plenty of people would accuse men who consider themselves feminists of being politically at odds with who they are
I’m afraid I have to agree. The amount of white men I’ve known who are only republican because they are afraid of being perceived as feminine if they have left leaning beliefs is insane. It’s way more prevalent in poor white communities so I can understand why it’s not as well known.
@@dawert2667 the meaning of that quote is that not everyone would think that. tons of people wouldn't think twice about white cis men being feminists and same goes for any other political stance. Not everyone would think they are wrong whereas its common sense that black or queer conservatives are straight up wrong.
@agent_star if that is the meaning of the quotation it should say "everyone" and not "anyone".
Given that it does say "anyone", Oscar's reply makes perfect sense
Yeah there isn't a political party with the platform of "down with white cishet men", whereas there is one that is explicitly against the existence of lgbtq people
I've noticed quite a few comments from conservatives on this video, and it seems like some of them are saying, "You two aren't making any sense; you're just a couple of super liberals agreeing with each other." I was honestly surprised to see these comments because Matt clearly explained why they made this video 10:13 - 'this is worth talking about bc we can learn about why people don't behave in ways that are politically rational. i think we can learn a lot ab shame, scapegoating, validation from ppl who will never give it to us.'
I doubt they made it that far tbh
I love how Contra breaks stuff down; it's so precise and exact but also charitable. Also it should be illegal to look this stunning over a Zoom call.
I dated a trans man who turned out be a hard core right winger. For context I'm a trans woman who can "pass" (this is just what people tell me, I don't necessarily agree or buy into the idea of "passing" in the first place) who's very feminine (tradwife on the outside with a gooey commie center). He was an extremely masculine man, blue collar worker, built like a power lifter, had a huge truck, the works (I am sorry to say this is my type, I really should have seen this coming). Like, the first half of our date was great, he was a gentleman, open doors for me, didn't talk over me, seemed to really be interested in me as a person, etc. etc. But then we get into politics and we start arguing over UBI of all things and he masks off as a Trump voter and I just stared at him in silence for like, a solid minute. He seemed pretty bewildered that a trans woman "like me" that can "pass" was "on the side" of the crazy leftists. The date really crashed and burned at that point. 🤦♀️
Dogged a bullet.
Wait let's be friends I also look like a tradwife on the outside (I live on a farm) but I'm definitely also a commie. Guys like that are not my type AT ALL but what kinda sucks is they're almost all like that, trans or not, money or no money. I haven't gone on a single date with a man like that that ended well. Not once. Maybe some are nice but they have such rigid ideas of how the world "should be" even if they're a minority. They think they can escape prejudice by dishing it out.
We're all people. It's ironically reassuring to meet someone, someone that you think should understand all of these issues, be an A-hole.
@@OrinSorinsonit definitely makes me feel less shit about myself when I make mistakes because it's like at least I can grow and change, some people become more miserable and rigid with time and they don't even realize it
As a Trans man I can totally understand why some of us are like that. We sometimes fall into the "alpha male" conservative ideology bc we want to be seen as "real men". It seems like Trans men fall into right-wing ideology way easier since conservatives often forget we exist and we can skurt by.
The last half of this is so important for everyone to hear, the idea that we need to other people 'weirder' than us to feel valid is so sneaky and deceivingly comforting.
Yep! It's that age-old delusion that if we circle the wagons neatly enough and exclude the embarrassing "weird kids," polite society will be appeased and gratified, and will finally see as sensible, proper people who can be invited to sit at the adult table and drink tea with pinkies extended.
Heck, I'm reminded of how a bunch of people on Twitter recently flipped out about a young trans furry making a cute little trans rights poster with her fursona because OH NOES FURRIES ARE CRINGE! WE CAN'T LET THE NORMIES THINK TRANS PEOPLE ARE CRINGE, TOO! THEN THEY WON'T WANT TO GIVE US RIGHTS, ON ACCOUNT OF US BEING CRINGE!
They are weird .. and should be called out .. I’m glad Blaire white and others are doing just that 🥰🙌
@@SexyBeautifulBabe Hate to break it to you but we're all weird.
@@SexyBeautifulBabeconservatives pipe down for one sec thanks
@@SexyBeautifulBabei love how caught up bigots like you are in hate, like my guy, you are talking about peoples feelings, and you are furious, touch grass
42:16 that is so embarrassing. Imagine considering a guy who wouldn't even come to your wedding your "friend." That's genuinely so sad.
God, every time I hear Natalie talk, I never want it to end.
Thank you both for covering a lot of ground that a straight guy doesn’t hear in our corner of online media.
I felt like there were a lot of times where you took the time to explain something you both knew for the audience.
and for someone whose algorithm doesn’t usually server them this topic it’s much appreciated.
This is such a wholesome comment. Here for it :)
That's when you know you're dealing with someone who knows how to communicate clearly
When Natalie said "appeasement," I had a light bulb moment on how to explain it to cishets. appeasement in WWII and how it didn't work because after giving mustache man austria, he wanted czechoslovakia, then the rhinelands (western france) and poland, then england and spain and russia. Giving him austria wasn't enough and was never going to be enough. Same with LGBT politics. As a trans guy, I completely understand the want to fit in and be "one of the good ones." I tried that and oh boy being a token doesn't work because the moment they think you did something to further your rights, they turn on you FAST. Personal experience from an area where it really is 50/50 on acceptance.
i entered terf spaces because i wanted to be one of the good ones lol. but also to desist myself. 3 years later i'm back where i started
Just look at how Dave Rubin's audience reacted to his announcement of having/adopting a child (I'm not sure which one).
Appeasement metaphor also works for LGBT politics, whats next until you are not progressive anymore pushing for something to change, and pushing for status quo. I bet people have their own, different limit.
The funny thing about Ben Shapiro is that Jews literally don't believe in hell or even have a concept of it in their own mythology besides Sheol being a temporary purgatory thing.
If I could ask Blair White one question: Does it not bother you that other conservatives you are “friends” with misgender you constantly?
Because I get the vide that she either doesn’t care or she’s in the grift too deep and knows she can’t complain or she’ll lose what little ground she has. Meanwhile, people on the left who she dislikes and dislikes her( me included) would never do that because we know her identity is valid. No matter how much we disagree with her political views.
Blaire's actions in this context can be likened to that of gay politicians in Russia who have supported the recent anti-LGBT laws
She really can't complain. She has worse things to complain about.
honestly its mostly that she chooses to say things she truly things to signal to the conservatives she is "catering" too bc she is convinced that keep her safe. Whether she cares or not we wont know unless shes honest with herself and addresses directly if she did.
@@samantha_proust
Serbia has a lesbian prime minister who upholds homophobic laws. Assimilation doesn't work.
I think she is beyond caring because she knows well that even that is pretense on their part. I remember watching this very painful interview of her and Ben Shapiro doing the same 'oh look how civil we are oh look how friendly we are even though he doesn't believe my identity is real' thing, and he had started out by saying how he just cannot call her 'she/her' because biology birth gender something something.... but then during the interview he kept accidentally saying 'she' because of course he did, because you look at her and it is extremely hard to call her 'him', you literally have to force yourself to prove a point. It was really funny/sad. Like him pretending he sees her as 'a man' because 'biology' but then failing that in normal conversation and referring to her as a woman because obviously when he looks at her he sees a woman, and her kind of laughing it off and being fine with both of those because I think she knows in the end it's all about the grift. I genuinely don't know a single right-winger who I think actually believes the crud they're saying. It's a circus they've discovered prints money for them.
This argument about LGBTQ+ people fighting for their rights made me realize something about my autism. I've tried everything to assimilate and mask as much as I can and became very quiet. I try to seem as neurotypical as I can, but I'll always seem autistic in a neurotypical world. I also have 'resting bitch face' but it's often exhausting and doesn't work to fake a smile. I got called a weirdo teasingly yesterday when I was just shy. Natalie made that point that the more you try to assimilate, the more you shrink. I've experienced discrimination at work and lost jobs because of my autism. The second I tell someone I have autism I'm 'othered' This had led to some rejection on dates, and a man even 'jokingly' saying 'Oh you have the 'tism'. I thought the better I continue to get at masking, the less I'd experience this rejection, but this isn't true. I've learned from this interview that LGBTQ+ people demanding acceptance did more for everyone in the end than those who try to be liked by everyone and assimilate.
Oh yeah! I was diagnosed pretty late (early-mid twenties), but nowadays, even if I'm not too vocal about it, I prefer going into groups where I'll be accepted as myself, and don't have to pretend being something else.
I'm lucky enough to be able to live with government aids iny country, because I was shown I was too autistic for a job, and none would be willing to make the effort.
If I want to be accepted, it can only be as myself, because otherwise the effort isn't worth it. Especially when it's such a core part of my identity.
The fact there's a link between autism and different gender expression just add to the mix
I can definitely relate in terms of seeing certain parallels between autism acceptance and queer acceptance.
Example - "high-functioning" autistics who can more effectively mask as neurotypical belittling and throwing under the bus other autistics who can't mask as well and stick out more (the types more likely to be labelled as "cringe")
female autist here, super open about it, have actually found great success leaning into my Ways. you will never come out on top competing in someone else's category, i really urge you to win in yr own lane
I feel for you, I had to end a friendship with my best friend who is autistic. Autism , from the outside, can come across so rude and anti-social. I guess the other thing is that everyone has to mask themselves to a degree to fit in at work or society, not just lgbt, not just autists- everyone. LGT has a strong political force behind it from non LGBTQ people,, and also the global media. Autism does not have this support yet. All the best.
Wow! You don't even see the problems with your statement, do you. You ended a friendship with your best friend because
'Autism, from the outside, can come across so rude and anti-social." Did you really see yourself as their true friend? @@noklarok
My gay uncle didn’t believe in gay marriage.
I once told him that it’s ok, that I believed in him and his rights whether he wanted them or not, that he deserved the same rights as anyone else.
There was a reason he liked me the best. ❤
That’s ok if he doesn’t want to marry as a gay person. But that bleeds into other people’s rights to marry, which opposes others freedom. Should still be called out of that
Maybe he was right.
@@shlockofgodand maybe you’re not as smart as you think
I am gay and I also did not believe in gay marriage, but because I also dont believe in marriage for man and woman
@@onlyrealtalentedartists i think its totally normal as long as its a personal choice
Me as a Black woman trying to join the Klan. Makes zero sense. Voting for a party that wishes for your demise. 😢
Which party is that?
@@djgroopz4952 100% of them today vote republican
@@ashleyjohansson230 Many of the cities that are rife with black demise are governed by Democrats.
@@djgroopz4952 The Klu Klux Klan(KKK)?
The well known group known for their white supremacy ideals, including wanting any non-whites to be second class citizens(if not slaves or just dead)?
Also, the other person is correct, they consistently vote Republican because they are the ones who will tolerate the group and push for the policies they want.
Every time Natalie speaks on these issues, I find some of my faith in people restored because she demonstrates a thoughtfulness that we don't get to see very often.
Natalie's voice is amazing. It's like a warm blanket and a hot cup of coco. She's so smart too. I hope that doesn't come out the wrong way. I've always loved her, and knew she was smart.
I completely get what you mean.
I love listening to her. her sense of humor is great too
As a white guy that was active in immigration reform, I was accused of being a race traitor by Proud Boys (among other things). Also as a white person that is financially comfortable, I'm often told that I'm voting against my own interests/hating myself by voting for Democrats/WFP.
at least the second point showed a more sophisticated awareness of their ultimate interest: capital.
@@dancincoolkid but voting for either the democrats or republicans is voting for the party that just wants to serve capital. At the very least in an economic sense, they have the same goals.
As a cis woman I get a lot of the same rhetoric from TERFs. All bigots seem to be cut from the same cloth.
@@gloomyeyes1527 yes but thats how the politcal system works
@@gloomyeyes1527not voting is basically giving a vote to whoever wins the election.
Great and important discussion. When I lived in London, I discovered that a lot of the gay men who hung out in Soho were conservatives. But I've never forgotten how bigoted the right wing tabloids etc. were in the early 1990s, when I first came out. This bigotry, as Natalie has said in some of her videos, has been transferred to trans people sadly, notably by the current Tory government. So I'd prefer to ally myself with movements that are seeking to improve life for everyone, and not invent new forms of discrimination.
"Common-sense gays" is my new favorite "yes, I am gay, and I do love my partner & we've made a life together, but only after pragmatic triangulation, like god intended."
As a recovered terf I love this conversation, there's so much internalized trauma and homphobia being queer we have to unpack in this comphet and patriarchal society you can easily slip through the cracks of the alt right propaganda. We are all valid and inspiring ❤️
Agreed!
I thankfully never felt attached to my womenhood in a way that made me a good target for TERFism, but I did have some very weird notions about beauty and make-up and similar things in the past.
As women when we face sexism it's sometimes so much easier to try to find something to blame, a scapegoat, or trying to find ways to behave and think that will minder the amount of sexism we'll face or make it easier to withstand.
So I definitely empathize with your situation. Keep going you're doing great!
(Also, Contrapoints made quite an interesting video about TERFs recently, don't know if you've seen it, maybe you wouldn't want to watch such a thing, but if you're interested, I thought it was really good)
What is a "recovered terf" if you don't mind me asking, how do you recover from that exactly?
@@aflockofconnivingmagpies3490basically an ex-terf, they used to be a terf and recovered from being one (stopped being a terf.)
“Recovered terf” is a way too friendly way to put it. You wanted trans people to loose their rights and most terfs wish them even worse…
Speaking of spinelessness, I'm surprised neither of yall mentioned that time some unironic Christofascist woman not only called Blaire White a groomer, but outright told her she needs to detransition and grow a beard "if you truly want to protect children", and Blaire said *nothing*.
If she did,then they would have called her a leftist. Which,to her I guess is literally worse than being called a groomer..for some reason. That or zero self respect. Or both
That was Lauren Witzke and it’s worse actually. Blaire said she agrees for the most part and argued that she doesn’t encourage other people transitioning
It's not spinelessness. It's just the reality of the incredibly tribalist mentality that permeates most of Western society, but especially the US: if you say anything that's out of line with the tribe that you are more closely ideologically aligned with, you'll get shunned and fucked over by it, and the other tribe will treat you even worse because, well, your ideology is even more out of line with theirs.
She had to resist saying anything lest she ruin her entire career. And please, don't pretend like this doesn't happen on the left. JK Rowling has exactly ONE opinion that isn't entirely progressive, and the left cancelled the hell out of her. The motto of 2020s Western society is "ideologically conform or perish".
@@maxkho00what you wrote is literally the definition of spineless.
@@maxkho00 She's been a Blairite and supported centre right policies and politicians for decades. She has never been progressive or left-wing. In fact, she's been actively opposed to them. Back in the 90s she was conservative, albeit moderate. Nothing about her politics is progressive. She was also anti-Corbyn for years. Her economic and social views are conservative ones.
Furthermore, left wing people have never supported her politically, especially not in the UK. Some centrist/moderate liberals supported her, that's all.
Great video. I'm straight but I came to hear what you had to say. In my feeds normally have maga attacking your community at every turn. So I just came to see how you guys were doing. Stay strong. One love.
❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you for acknowledging that there's more of a conversation to be had beyond, "Well, they're just self-hating gays." Very nuanced discussion thank you!
My dad is a huge conservative republican and pretty much told me that he hates all democrats and they all should go to hell (he’s atheist so not sure what he means by that) and that I’m the only exception cause I’m his daughter. I’m a democrat masc lesbian and he always says he doesn’t understand how I could be apart of the Democratic Party considering the whole family is republican they own a business. Basically that I should look past the GOPs stance on gay people because economic view points are far more important. We used to be really close but I won’t vote for a party that is actively and outwardly against me just cause “but the economy!” Big sigh.
"but the economy" there's literally no evidence whatsoever that a Republican type of governance is better for the economy than a Democratic one, actually if you observe economic growth per mandate since the creation of the USA if tends to show the opposite
He means ☠️ that's just what it is.
What I don't understand there is like, my family is on a farm of 180 acres and we sell cattle and we're all progressive, not even democratic I think we're almost not even on the scale. My grandma was from Mexico and had to drop out of school to pick fruit (we're mixed) but I've never had fog over my eyes about the exploitation of the poor and immigrants CAUSE THAT'S MY FAMILY. I don't get how our families are so different? And actually the Republican party regularly fucks over farmers so there's that
Ure insanely handsome btw
Republicans are completely dogshit for small businesses too, like ??
Please don't hesitate to do many more of these with contrapoints.
The lobbies trying to shorten LGBTQ+ to LGB are also trying to shorten LGB to LG. And shortening L to only women who have never had sex with a man, and on and on. It all reduces to reaffirming a myogenist-oriented strict political gender binary.
Listening to this video made me realize how much i wanted the words to give to my identity as being an american pakistani LGBTQ person. If i would have remained religious and within the conservative bent of my muslim family, i would been down in the path of assimilation. I dont regret leaving my religion of islam as now i feel i can think and identify structures for myself then looking at a religious lens. I love the word you used in the video of being Liberationist. I can definitely say with a 100% that is what my identity of being LGBTQ is now. I want liberation not assimilation in the current power structures we live in. Being part of this community is in regards about liberation to me.
My absolute favorite part of this video was being introduced to Natalie, who I am now deeply obsessed with and her content is delivering that sweet, sweet blast of dopamine into my god-forsaken brain
I discovered her this year and I’m obsessed. Her voice is so gorgeous and she’s so well-spoken.
In the same vein as her content I very much recommend Philosophy Tube if you're not already familiar 🫶
I know her since 2019. Totally can recommend all of her videos.
don't binge all the content too fast or you will discover the withdrawal of waiting for the next one! savor them
Aaaaah, welcome to the prayer circle!!
My little theory about Jeffrey is that he moved to Wyoming for tax reasons since it's a tax haven after the Shane Dawson, Tati and James Charles drama, he was losing money then tried to integrate himself to the conservatives and right wing grift which kinda failed as he is too 'much' and a step too far for a lot of conservatives and now with how much TikTok live he is doing and trying to relaunch his makeup company clawing and cockroaching him back to more wealth. Jeffree is someone who will do anything for money and clout
That Rubin/Shapiro clip is mindblowing. The only way I can rationalize it is if Rubin doesn't really understand/is in denial about what Shapiro means when he says being gay is "sinful". I mean, how little self-respect must you have to be friends with someone who thinks the most important relationship in your life is an evil that makes you *deserving of eternal torture?* And they call US cucks.
I think Buck Angel should be a part of this conversation. I was honestly surprised by his right turn. He would receive criticism for not getting bottom surgery and he seemed like a forward thinking guy, and now he's appearing on Turningpoint. When Contrapoints was getting heat for working with him (briefly) my honest reaction was "Buck? What did he do?"
He’s somehow a truscum/transmed while not having bottom surgery himself. Mind-boggling how brains work to convince yourself that you’re the exception.
Jeffree Star being anti non binary was crazy to me, when I was in the closet (before knowing about how bad of a person he is) I used to talk about how cool I thought it was that he bended the gender norms and talked about how I wish I could be like that.
Also I’ve noticed that as a leftist, despite being latino, poor working class, and very queer, im critiqued by the more racist white people for having “woke” viewpoints because I’m white, even calling me a race traitor. I’m a proud race traitor if that’s what they wanna call ppl who believe we all deserve to be treated equally.
I mean bending norms isn't the same as being non-binary. These are two mutually exclusive ideologies and the fact that many assume they're the same is what tells me a majority of non-binary-identifying people don't actually FEEL what they think they feel
@@AllThoseChickens he literally said he doesn’t care what pronouns anyone calls him and he literally was on that “non-binary alien it/its” train before it was more common for ppl to do that openly online
You're not a leftist.
You know you're living right when other white people call you a race traitor.
@@isabellaschuster4470 that pronoun comment most likely stems from the fact he got fed up of being asked if he’s a man or a woman due to his androgynous appearance, even though he’s a man he probably got to the point where he was like “fuck it! I don’t care, call me what you want”.
Queer conservatives are such a fascinating phenomenon and I am sooo glad you talked about this! Excited for more episodes
It's like a new animal species
new pokemon unlocked
lol y’all are so ingrained in the status quo, it breaks your brain hearing about conservative gays 😂
Idk what status quote you’re talking about. You saw that screenshot of when beretta posted Jeffree Star’s custom gun and the comments that came with it. You aren’t blind
@@lightingrod5907what does that have to do with their being conservative gays… there’s life outside of the bubble
Candace Owens met the chair of Turning Point UK and CEO of Parler, who is also the heir of the former treasurer of the UK Conservative Party, and 3 weeks later they were married at a Trump Vineyard with Kanye West in attendance
I don't think there is a level where the grift stops with these people
Or maybe..just maybe..they genuinely have those beliefs. I think the reason you’re so confused is because you’re suffering from cognitive dissonance. You are so delusional that you think a grifter would MARRY someone and have multiple children with that person in a lifelong relationship to keep up your weird racist fantasy you have in your head. Grow up.
I LOVE that you have an active channel now but also getting Natalie as your guest like holy shit amazing. What a power discussion.
This is amazing. I live in Saskatchewan, Canada. We recently had this million march for children. In other provinces anti LGBTQ protesters were outnumbered by counter protesters, but here they marched virtually unopposed and are working hard to remove any mentions from schools. I was treated very badly here growing up for being too feminine, I still don't understand that one, I only wore "boys" clothes, had short hair. But I didn't play sports and hung out with girls so adults would harass me for "being gay" long before I ever figure that out for myself. Now those same people are again claiming we are shoving it down their throats and grooming kids. I can't begin to explain how crazy it is to watch people you grew up with basically planning hate rallies and saying they are about love when talking about "exterminating people with opposing views".
Hey, I'm from BC but was working in Ottawa when these marches happened. I just want to say that I hear you and I get it (even if it's just a little bit) as a lesbian dating a lovely butch woman. It was like watching people sharpen pitchforks in front of you.
You're not listening to their concerns.
Natalie saying that hatred is just a stage that young queer people have to go through is so real
It's sad that being a queer person means you literally inevitably have to go through at least some phase of feeling like an isolated misfit.
@@ihsahnakerfeldt9280 hopefully in the future we can make that no longer the case. Hopefully while avoiding falling into the TERF hole of using that pain to justify our identity, and as a result cling to it and insist anyone who doesn't suffer doesn't belong.
We need to remember it's a shared experience, not the defining one.
Wasn't for me personally but I was lucky enough to be raised in a good environment for being part of LGBTQ+ community already.
Natalie's Cringe video was really important for me, and I'm glad she put her issues in the video because it helped me reckon with my own feelings of shame and rejection. This was awesome, thank you!
UGH I know this is 5mo old but this is SUCH an important conversation to be had and I’m just so grateful for people like this, love yall!!!
I agree, especially since this is my 3rd listen!
a crossover i didnt expect but definitely the crossover i needed
I could just listen to Natalie talk all day. She's so incredibly smart
RUclips recommendations giving me actual good content and not garbage for once. Hell yeah.
EDIT: Natalie is so damn smart. I feel like she just flicked a switch in my head that made me literally go, "Ooohhhhh..." multiple times with revelation.
Natalie is so thoughtful, intelligent, and witty! We truly don't deserve her!
Great podcast, Matt. You put 11 months of work into this and it shows! Well worth the wait.
Gsjfjagshdjaha stop 💀
nope, it's garbage. Pure lies.
I got Jeffree Star's live banned the other day because he was spewing misinformation. Truly one of my proudest moments 💅
Honestly, a whole slay
You're out here doing real work. Thank you. Lol.
Sis thinks she's powerful. A bunch of people spam report him ALWAYS. You didn't do anything 🎉🎉🎉
@@noimnotakpoppfpsheacy2526what a weirdly rude and negative comment ew
@@noimnotakpoppfpsheacy2526 you can just say you want to nominate me for a noble 🙄 it's okay 💕
I accidentally jumped to a random time in the video and heard "they get excited by some level of face-eating."
I love how eloquent and well spoken Natalie is. It shows she has done a lot of inner work and has verbalised all of these thoughts. I literally just listen so I can widen my vocabulary about my own feelings and inner battles.
Natalie is amazing at this
Her intelligence always gets me simping so hard 👌😩❤🔥
I’m a young transitioner, binary “transsexual” 10 1/2 years into my transition, and I’m really glad the “transsexual VS tucute/trender/fetishist” dichotomy was brought up. I’m constantly added to group chats where fellow dolls engage in these Blanchardian discussions and it’s always so transparent how desperate these girls are to put themselves on these special “HSTS” platforms at the expense and humiliation of others. The resentment comes from all sides too. I’ve recently been seeing a rise in self-proclaimed “femboys” harassing trans women for example. It really does yourself a disservice not to explore where these resentments come from and it truly is the root of this bigger issue of LGBT conservatives. What a great conversation, I wish more people explored these ideas with nuance.
I feel like contra kind of touched on this when she started to talk about lesbian infighting, but yes I would love to see them discuss this more in depth, especially with contra being the victim of some seriously wild projection that wouldn't have happened without the preexisting backdrop of this "tucute/true trans" crap
As a straight conservative, I really loved listening to this conversation. What Natalie had to say about how “people don’t make sense” really gets back to how we are all individuals with a wide range of views who are all worthy of respect. ❤ thank you for having this conversation and I’m looking forward to listening more
In what way are you conservative if you don't mind elaborating?
Absolutely!! First off - I believe that we are responsible for our own destiny - in life, financially, spiritually, etc. No amount of finger pointing at “systems” or “oppression” or “structures” is going to solve the problems you have in your every day life. Your life is an outcome of your choices. That being said, no matter what background you come from, your state in life is dependent upon merit and your dedication to your own success, will in turn, give you that success (i.e., I believe in EQUALITY and not EQUITY). I think “equity” mentality has led to people believing they are not worth success which pushes them into depression, anxiety, etc. I would know- because I’m a victim of this mindset myself. The moment I picked myself up and told me I was responsible for the outcomes of my life, I started making better choices. Joy and happiness are a side effect of success. They are not something that can be manifested.
That being said, this concept also leans into my beliefs on fiscal policy (I’m for limited welfare, against government run healthcare, etc.). Your financial/health-related wellbeing are outgrowths of your merits.
I am generally a free speech absolutist - meaning, as long as your rhetoric that is protected by the American first amendment - it should not be censored or shadowbanned in any way.
I believe that we are all human beings put on this earth with very complex ideologies, cultures, and attitudes. All are worthy of listening and respect as long as they do not cause physical violence.
I believe these pillars lean into all aspects of the political realm (the LGBT debate, the police reform debate, foreign policy, etc.). Speaking about these issues with compassion and introspectiveness, but not combativeness, will begin to heal our societal divides. Hope this helps!
This was an amazing conversation! I came here as a fan of Natalie, and as in this conversation, I’m always so struck by how simultaneously compassionate she is to others and incorporates and understanding of human psychology into her political analysis, while being able to address the bigger picture and hold these people accountable. I feel like RUclips and the world as a whole is better because these deeply nuanced conversations can have a space to happen and be heard.
The blair white pick me situation, (being attractive for straight men who will never acknowledge her as a human being) reminds me of the paradox one experiences being a fat woman. You are both fetishised for simply having a body (having big boobs and a butt that are under constant surveillance, will get stared at, and must be kept covered up at risk of looking like you are sexualising yourself); and yet, at the same time, being told each moment of your life you are not physically appealing to anyone because of that same body. Like with trans women, Men often look at you like an inanimate object that both disgusts them and fulfills their fantasy. None of which lets them see past your physique and into your humanity.
Babe this was one of the most astute things I’ve read in a long time 👏🏻
Just have a simple conversation .. it’s not hard to get someone to see your humanity .. and if they don’t, there’s billions of other people who will.. Stop generalizing all men.. I don’t experience that with men and I’m a transsexual .. it’s not that complicated .. just look presentable and people respect you
@@SexyBeautifulBabe you know I sincerely hope you never get to meet the real world. But when you do, and someone hurts you even though you’ve done everything you could to “look presentable” and not offend, it’ll be ugly. Remember this exchange then
@@NUBF sweety, I live in the south Bronx .. the world doesn’t get more realer than where I’m at .. a lot of these men are hyper masculine and mean .. even to cis women .. and yet I’m still here telling you that not all men are bad .. you’ll be okay
@@SexyBeautifulBabe if you say so hun 🙏🏽
I've never understood discrimination against anyone. And I'm a 56 yo white man. For my own part, I think those who engage in the politics of non acceptance and hate should be called out and dealt with accordingly. Thank you both for discussing this very, very important topic.
so you hate people that hate?, you don't accept people that don't accept?
@@noklarok "iaws"
@@noklarokno i dont. Look up the paradox of intolerance.
@@noklarok oooo you’re so edgy and different 😂 yo shut up
@@noklarok Did you read what I wrote? I said I never understood. Not hate. Pay attention.
Its so nice to hear people curiously examining things instead of instantly reacting and taking that as the conclusion. So nice to not feel stressed all the time. Of course, Natalie will do that, idk who the other person is but i really like the vibe od this video!
I'm rewatching this days after Ann Coulter told Vivek Ramaswamy that while she agrees with him politically and thinks he's "articulate," she still wouldn't vote for him due to him being "an Indian." And immediately, it made me think of how that situation is paralleled to Ben Shapiro telling Dave Rubin how they are "friends" but yet, Rubin's marriage and family is sinful---which demands Shapiro not attend Rubin's wedding, bake a cake or buy a gift for his "friend." Rubin and Ramaswamy frame this as simply engaging in conversation, an exchange of ideas, being tolerant of those that disagree with you. And I would frame it differently, many of us don't mind engaging in conversation with those that differ in perspective. Hell, by default of being a minority in a society where you're not the status-quo, we're often MADE to have these conversations. But for many of us, we choose to have higher expectations of those we call friends/loved ones and that includes not just being tolerated but holistically loved and embraced. Having the expectation/value that my "friends" are not going to cite my immutable trait (race, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc.) for why they can't give me full-fledged support, love, friendship, vote for me or attend my wedding!
The Shapiro / Ruben clip never fails to make me pause and reflect on the surrealism of the moment
I think one of the things that also need to be considered in this sort of conversation is stuff like racism. As much as we like to believe otherwise, A LOT of white gays are INCREDIBLY racist and, perhaps prior to their coming out, enjoyed a certain level of privilege, protection, and enjoyment at being a part of the default and the "majority", but then they come out and a good deal of that privilege and protection is stripped away as they suddenly find themselves a minority and suddenly have to reckon with the idea that all those things that they previous did and enjoyed might be turned against them. Or they just simply carry those bigoted, racist beliefs along with them into the LGBT space which is, for the most part, diverse and suddenly they're equal with those who they once thought they were above. For some, they realize their bigotry and prejudice and work to overcome them, realizing that we are all in the same struggle and that those who oppress LGBT people often also oppress racial minorities and so understand that our struggles are in tandem, but others cling to their perceived superiority and try to assert it in these spaces which of course causes push back and is ultimately self-defeating so they often have no choice, but to flee back into the arms of their oppressors, attempting to placate them in the hopes of being spared from their own marginal status and allowed to enjoy all the privileges that they once had.
There is no LGBT community. Being gay is my private life and doesn’t mean I am in a community or enter other people’s spaces.
@@xeganxerxes4319Peterson fan much
Was looking for this!
James Baldwin's white gays
banger
the captions saying 'rhonda santos' is something.
This episode went by so fast! Wow, Matt! This was a wonderfully made and well-researched first episode. I have been listening to Natalie for the past two years, and I have discovered you like 6 months ago or so, and i am so thrilled to be able to see both of you discuss, it just makes sens that you two get to discuss together about such an important subject! Thank you for this podcast of yours, i can't wait to listen to the next episodes and learn more about so many things! Keep up the good work, i can't wait to see where you will be in a few years
Everytime I watch content with Contrapoints I wish I could purge it from my head and watch it again for the first time it's so good.
Thanks for existing mom we love you.
Yep it's a desire I get with great music and art in general.
This is VITAL. Period. Thank you for dissecting the psychological undercurrents of LGBT conservatism and especially for the warning of how we are all vulnerable to slipping into defensive projection (to some degree)in the process of grappling with our place in a society that doesn't accept us.
PS: I adore you both omg.
Your ideology is about compliance and domination. You should be happy with being tolerated; so many other people are. I don't get why queer lefties like you demand everyone love and respect you. That is not how the world works. Things are actually much more complicated than they appear but I'm wondering if you can tolerate that?
Great recap! In my English class we’re taking about anti gay legislators being later outted themselves in a book called Blind Spot, the purpose of the book was to highlight people’s subconscious beliefs that serve hierarchical power and isn’t apparent to the person enforcing the mentality subconsciously, and coincidentally I was talking with my therapist about how my mom was studying with her boyfriend (a predator) when she herself had been molested as a child by an adult in her family.
At the time I was experiencing us breaking up, I was so angry that she couldn’t sympathize with me, or see herself in me in what was happening.
When Natalie talked about femme lesbians throwing butches under the buss, all the femme policing, the idea that these judgements exist in all spheres including supposedly the most alienated of people, it made me realize that people continue to fall into this support to hierarchical power because none of us are exempt from its judgement and we are all being policed for how we behave out who we are, and we resent the people who get to live in freedom and make it hard for us, the people still subjecting ourselves to these constraints.
I saw a video of a supposedly trans girl in bangkok, unconfirmed, the comment from a mid weight white woman was “if she is a woman, why do I exist?” She meant it as a self deprecating joke but to me it said the quiet part out loud.
I saw another video of a white woman saying “white women do resent black women for “being loud” because we were taught good girls never spoke up and rocked the boat.” So essentially their label of womanhood could be revoked by being opinionated, a male engendered thing. It was the resentment of back women’s freedom they gave themselves by pushing back and saying they wouldn’t participate that made them jealous.
So I realized my mom was probably thinking “why didn’t you just choke it down, erase it, and keep the family together and happy like I did?” As if it were easy for her and worth it, but it wasn’t, and that’s why she resents me for talking about it.
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When I saw Contrapoints in the title I though “oh we’re gonna see her casual side.” Cut toNat just chilling in her Sherlock library
Awesome to see Contrapoints here, she is so funny and knowledgable. I also gotta say, you are so well spoken and a clear communicator ❤ It was a pleasure to listen to this!
OK Matt you ate out the gate. I thought at first this was going to be a cute commentary and roast episode with your research in there, which would have been hella entertaining. But damn, the psychoanalysis of common human experiences deconstructing anti-gay gays was an incredible arc. Calling on the trauma, pain, fear and humanity behind these self-annihilating choices. Excited to see you continue to grow with this podcast!
well this is the type of content contra does. there's a lot of psychoanalysis in her videos
@@lil_weasel219 I went to follow right away, I'll have to catch up on her content!
@@tsamurphy it really is worth it. her background in philosophy and the fact that she puts months into every video both definitely show, and she's got an uncanny ability to find the right way so say things that are right on the point.
totally! Don't know how I haven't come across them before but look forward to catching up!@@overgrownkudzu
I've had a couple of so-called "Log Cabin Republicans" tell me flat-out that being gay is just their sexual kink and not something they were born as.
Which should be irrelevant to the questions of human rights
Since recently, I've even started to think that being a gay liberal is something negative. Or, to put it differently, I've started to feel like there are very few gay liberals left. Too many people are talking about what's often referred to as 'gender craziness,' 'neo pronouns craziness,' and 'non-binary insanity' to the extent that they can't even see the extent to which the 'I'm gay, but I'm leaving the left' concept has gained traction.
I've made a bunch of videos about folks like Blaire White and other conservatives, trying to call out any fibs. And, well, RUclips started throwing me LGBTQ+ conservative content left and right. My videos even found their way to the right-wing corner of RUclips, which is pretty wild. I've received some funny comments from far-right folks suggesting I take a break from the internet, haha. So, stumbling upon this video is a breath of fresh air. Thanks! =^_^="
I'm sorry about what you described in your second paragraph.
And thank you for your videos.
@@3243_ Thank you for this comment 😍
It's weird how gaslighting is a common conservative tactic isn't it?
The moment you start to call them out, you're told to take a break. With the implication that being online is causing you to see things that dont exist...
@@the_last_ballad So true!
I have embarrassingly never heard of Contrapoints before, but I love her voice so much! Will definitely have to look into more of her work. This was such a great episode!
i think people become so traumatized that they assume someone will always be under attack. they don’t see what they’re doing as destructive because they take destruction as a given and are tired of always being on the same end of it. it’s a false dichotomy and people are still accountable for their actions but i think it’s definitely more complex than self hate.
“more complex than self-hate” - thank you, this is something that keeps popping into my head during these discussions and I need to do more work to unpack it, but thank you for saying it in any event 😊
Loooove ContraPoints. So glad she was on your first episode!!! Definitely do more with her!
Finally subscribed and will listen to all of the episodes! Can't believe I've been missing this!
I’ve almost never clicked so fast to watch a podcast episode