Speeding - Loophole or Trap?
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- Опубликовано: 21 июл 2024
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In the 1990’s I was stopped for speeding on the M4 motorway near Port Talbot. The Policeman who stopped me told me that he had measured my average speed at 106mph using a system called VASCAR. I asked the Policeman what point of reference had he used and he pointed to a bridge some 1/4 mile away as his first point of reference and a nearer bridge for the second point of reference. He then told me that I would get an automatic ban because I had exceeded 100mph.
On the day of the hearing I made use of the duty Solicitor on the basis that I was pleading guilty. I explained to the duty Solicitor that although I accepted I had exceeding 70mph, I disputed that I had exceeded 100mph. I maintained that from a distance of 1/4 mile, the Policeman would not be able to determine with accuracy when I was directly beneath the bridge. This is called parallax error. I maintained that the parallax error created doubt and uncertainty about the speed of 106mph that the Policeman had recorded. The duty Solicitor argued my case and presented it extremely well. I received 6 points on my licence and a substantial fine, but more importantly for me I did not receive a driving ban. The duty Solicitor advised afterwards that he had not heard of parallax error and was amazed that I escaped without a driving ban.
were you going over 100 though?
@@ohnolookwho241 🆘 no harm no loss no injury 🆓 ⚖️ ✅ 🙏 .
@@ZooScott The reference points used would have been the shadow cast by the bridge, no Parallax error involved. I suggest the lack of a ban was due to the lack of understanding by the Magistrate, a common problem.
@@solentbum unless the sun is out and it's near midday I can't see how that would be a reliable system, especially with UK weather, philip definitely had an argument, even if it was an assy one.
@@ZacsDashcam The shadow of an overbridge is visible even in poor weather, have look next time you are driving. The VASCAR system makes allowance for the slight irregularities involved , which is why the measured distance is quite long, enough to measure the average speed over the distance between the two chosen points. Have you noticed the white dots painted on many main roads, or random triangles, etc? The vascar operator will have the distances recorded for static checks, plus for a moving check the actual distance of the follow is used. Training for the operator is two days minimum,
Was home on leave from my unit (which was based in germany, early 90's), i got a phone call that i needed to return asap, i hit the M25 and was doing approx 90 mph when i was pulled over by an unmarked police car. Officer asked me if i knew what speed i was doing, i explained the situation, showed my ID and did abit of sweet talking. He nodded, said he was going to escort me to the dartford bridge but after that i needed to slow down. so there i was, behind a cop car doing 100+ , blue lights going. Surreal moment.
My experience (and it’s vast on speeding😱) is that for a fixed camera/camera van ticket it’s sent out promptly, often the same day, so rarely will this “loophole” be relevant😔
I live in France and have had a couple of speeding tickets in the last 50 years. I admitted the offence and lost 1 point each time (in France, you have 12 points on your licence and these are deducted). However, a friend of mine was caught entering a town at 83Km/h when the speed limit was 50. 2 months later, the limit at that spot was raised to 70. A year later (yes), he returned from holiday to discover a fine and withdrawal of his licence for 7 days. He had no defence as he had been caught on a mobile speed trap and stopped by the police.
you've cleared up something in this video for me. regarding registered keeper vs driver, as in "fleet operated vehicles", company vans etc managed through a fleet department of said company.
many thanks.
The history of the NIP procedure goes back to the 1930's when people were receiving a summons for an offence committed weeks beforehand, and could not of course remember any details. NIPs also apply to several other offences such as Dangerous driving, Double white lines and Traffic lights. With modern technology they can be churned out within minutes of the offence being 'recorded'.
As BBB points out it is a well established procedure, but unfortunately subject to many 'Urban Myths'.
Out of the thousands of speeding cases I've dealt with, do you know how many times the NIP has been sent out of time? Zero.
I remember when Top Gear looked at the placement of speed cameras, and the locations of accident black spots. No surprise to find that most of the speed cameras were not anywhere near accident black spots. The latter were virtually ignored in the pursuit of raising revenue, which is what they are all about. Speed does not kill, the context and situation are all-important. 90 mph on a clear motorway may be illegal but usually safe, especially with modern cars. 90 mph on crowded streets in towns, villages, and cities, are a completely different thing.
BTW I am not advocating speeding, just pointing out the way cameras are being used.
On the 5-lanes of M40 on a clear dry day you could be pretty safe doing 200 if your car can do it.
Lets make it worse
A bike magazine did a looksee into this and found a BMW motorbike using only its front brake could stop from 70 within the distance allocated for stopping from 30mph ..................
Thats 1 brake only ............... and this was near 20 years ago and brakes and tyres have improved since then ...........
Its also well known that certain cars can pull off from a standstill , get to 70 and then stop within the stopping distance of 315 feet .
I also dont think people should make up there own speed limits but basing them on a Triumph Herald back in 1967 , with cross ply tyres and drum brakes is simply insulting to motorists .
You state that speed does not kill, a tyre blow out at 30 mph, frightening..., a tyre blow out at 90 mph does not bear thinking about.....
@@jgrant1162 Richard Hammond survived a 250mph tyre blowout.
@@jgrant1162 No problem . Lets test your brainwashing .
75% of kids die when hit at 40mph and 75% survive at 30 going on the brainwashing you enjoy .
Could you tell me how many children died last year or indeed any year from cars travelling at 40mph ?
Cildren mean 14 or bellow . 40 is the desired speed limit and not those who drive dangerous or drunk .
Good luck ..... i sincerely mean this . Multi million pound advertising so kindly hunt out the numbers to demonstrate why it was valid . To be lied to once is once to often .
I'm curious whether you think that Section 1(3) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 could be argued as fundamentally opposed to the presumption of innocence. This section appears to require (albeit by implication) that the Defendant proves a negative. Given that not responding to an NIP is an offence in and of itself, surely this makes the Act open to massive abuse by the state.
Not quite. It's a notice that they intend to prosecute. You are then given the option to either admit you committed the offence or challenge it. If you challenge it you go to court and then it is down to the prosecution to prove you committed the offence with the evidence they have.
Nowadays, when you are caught, you are made to respond online. When you do so they actually give you the opportunity to view their evidence (which are the speed camera photos and I believe a report from an expert explaining how from the photos demonstrate you went over the speed limit). In doing this they are complying with full disclosure and giving you the opportunity to review the evidence they will use before you decide whether you want to 'admit guilt' or challenge the prosecution. This evidence would then be presented at court as the prosecution case.
In regards to the responding bit. The whole intention is to prosecute the person who committed the offence. Which may not be the registered keeper. hence they're asked to inform who the driver was. But if the registered keeper doesn't inform the police then they are, in essence, perverting the course of justice whether deliberately or not.
As a result I'm not entirely convinced this process runs contrary to innocent until proven guilty. Bar possibly the difficulties in proving someone didn't respond to the original NiP
But how is a person expected to prove the notice letter spent 2 weeks in the postal system before it arrived if it was not sent recorded or registered ?
They're not.
Maybe if the letter were postmarked more than 14 days after the alleged event?
@@nicks40 They are usually post marked within a few hours. Then they vanish for a while.
You cant ............ so much for presumed innocent until etc etc
Hi BBB, one of the most informative legal channels on RUclips. Happy new year
Steve
The volume of new videos arriving from Mr. Blackbelt is impressive.
Courts are closed over Christmas/New Year.
One thing I was told though is that it's actually 15 days in practise, as the 14 day limit starts the day following the 'event'. Not sure if that's true though.
There is also expected to be some "leeway" which means a court can enforce one after 14 days I think. I know this is true for some other issues.
Some police forces use a software system called Hummingbird to "date stamp" their outgoing mail. As some police forces also subcontract out their speed camera networks to private contractors and in realty non of the paperwork is ever seen by a real police constable. As the BBB may agree, it is always worthwhile researching the rules before you engage with the police and definitely when dealing with the scamera partnerships who are not interested in road safety only revenue.
Easy answer: don't want to give them revenue? Don't speed.
That really should be the start and finish of the conversation.
Can a prosecution from a fixed speed camera be unenforceable. Due to the requirements that allowed that fixed speed camera to be added to the road in the first place, has now expired ?
I heard of a defendant in s speeding case who cloned the judge's number plate and then did the ton through every speed camera in town.
The big problem in challenging the timing of the NIP is that the burden of proof is reversed. So how do you know when the notice was posted and how are you to find out if the police, realising a mistake, backdated the date on the notice, or, having dated it correctly, posted it late? If this is a problem for defendants, they could always ask for disclosure of documents, which applies to every offence but only when process i.e. court proceedings, have started. You could, however, ask for informal disclosure and it may look bad for the prosecution if you raise an NIP defence in court and the police have been unhelpful.
They in practice just send a fixed penalty notice unless it was over a certain speed which could be considered reckless or dangerous driving.
If a fixed speed camera with calibration from a yr earlier snaps you and you request a day in court yet the court miss reads the letter you sent back requesting a day in court and deals with it in your absence then slams you with 3 points on a 12yr clean license and £280 fine what options do i have because when I phoned up they argued with me and told me i was lying 7 times before finally reading my letter of reply properly and agreeing i was right but now it was to late to do anything about it ?.
What can i do about this as I know I wasn’t speeding at the time.
I was going to lose my license when I was young for having 6 points in the first year of driving. My uncle is a clerk of the court and told me to ask to be dealt with in court. He said the courts were too busy to deal with such cases and the actually sent me back my license. Bit of a gamble but it paid off. Is that still the case?
Delays more than 14 days due to Covid must be a good possibility.
If so, some good has come out of this mess we are in.
Or slow down
Boring Geriatrics 😂.
Good on ya
Learn where and how the speed you travel at is appropriate and learn where if you may find yourself exceeding the speed then need to be extra carefull . Note im not tell you not to speed , im not a hypocrite ....... unlike some ........
Note `appropriate` .
Remember if you drift over you will get done . But also remember you never get a pat on the back for travelling under the speed limit . No-one will shake your hand , knock 3 points off your license and give you £100 for doing 15 in a 30 when its school kicking out time . Its punishment only as the motorist is a cashpoint .
Always seek and aim to travel under the posted speed knowing most are based off archaic inappropriate limits of a bygone age . Yes its an insult but thats the UK in the 21st century for you .
A further exception to the 14 day rule is road traffic collisions. No NIP is required where the alleged offence occurs at the time of, or immediately before a collision (s.2 RTOA 1988) . Clearly, less likely to be applicable to speeding, but applies to careless / dangerous driving and perhaps a few other offences.
If the registered keeper returns the NIP stating that xxx was the driver at the time what happens if that person denies it? The keeper has complied with the law but there is no proof against the actual driver.
Thee years ago I was caught by a mobile speed camera. When I received the Notice, the road and location were completely different to the actual location where I was caught. I wrote back querying this and received a letter back saying no further action would be taken.
Wonder if the operator forgot to change the location in the system when setting it up and it was set for a previous location, although I thought GPS would have that sorted out. Be interesting to know if every other car that day also had the same incorrect location on their NIP.
Does anyone know what happens when there’s a dispute over who’s driving? I.e the registered keeper claims it’s person x who was driving but that person denies it?
Yes . Its taken to court and evidence is heard and decided upon . Most times though the registered keeper will get done if its not possible to decide . How you may ask well then lent the vehicle to someone who isnt trustworthy or they are lying themselves . Theres no way out of this then .
SELF CONTROL.
Practice makes perfect.
God does not drive.
What if the vehicle belongs to a recently deceased person, being registered in their name, and is being driven by someone for the purposes of dealing with the estate. Then the NIP would be unanswered/untrturned?
Can't prosecute a dead person
I would guess, it would still count if sent in time. The notice was sent to the registered keeper within the required time limit. This would be passed on to whomever is dealing with the estate in order to identify and then pass the notification on to the driver at the time of the offense.
@@JGZ. And the dead cant drive .
Control then goes to the executor of the state and that person stands a chance of being held accountable . They would then need to demonstrate a name to the court to avoid this .
Does the 14 days apply to the notice being sent or when it should have been received? I'm curious as to what happens should there be a postal strike that delays delivery or if I was to be on three week holiday abroad after the speeding offence occurred.
Sent. It could possibly be received outside the 14 days. The post is a law unto itself that the police have no control. The post mark is everything.
@@Wilkins_Micawber ..
Postmarks denote date of receipt of letter/package at postal depot/sorting facility. Date of delivery is not that date. Date of delivery to address of intended recipient is relevant to the 14 day limit.
Have you come across a legally recognised case law precedence for determining " Street Racing " in a Crown case and the prosecution thereof in a Magistrates or county court . Because their is one , but its not easy to find unless you know where to look and as the law stands many drivers could be prosecuted for simply overtaking in a multi lane one way street of motorways and large numbers of particular younger drivers are prosecuted for this offence simply due to lack of knowledge of the legal assistance to the Magistrates or of the defendants advocates .
Just went past a speed camera doing 32 mph in a 30mph area. Am I likely to get a fine and three points? My girlfriend said her car shows her speed higher than it is so I was likely doing 29/30 mph
Thank you, very well explained as always.😁
I'm an agency truck driver, and as such I switch between clients. If I get flashed while I'm at work and they notify the vehicle owner (the client) who then inform them I was the driver, but I've moved customer and they don't tell me, where would I stand?
At a bus stop 😂
when the client inform them (the police) you were the driver your will be written to directly. doesn't matter who your current employer/client is, and your client/employer may or may not inform you at all they have named you ona NIP, but you will know when your NIP letter arrives.
Can I ask, about speeding tickets... I say a programme, a few years ago, on the BBC I think, that showed that a police person actually holding a radar gun in his/her hands and pointing it at your car is unreliable as the programme showed that the officer only had to move their arm a tiny bit to give a distorted reading. Should I get such a speeding fine, can I challenge this by saying that the speed that I was accused of is unreliable due to possible movement of the gun whilst ascertaining my speed?
You can challenge it by all means. You'd need to prove the officer either wasn't trained in the device, failed to use it properly in your specific event or that the device was faulty. They will show that the model in question is Home Office approved which effectively eliminates that final point. The police would need to supply the evidence you require to prove your case, so good luck with that! Either that or physically demonstrate the failings of the device in court.
You can challenge several points, including if it was raining (in some cases), and if the reading was taken while the car is in a curve (inaccuracy/parallax error).
Unreliable reading due to arm movement or equipment used may be tough to prove. The officer catching will probably not use the same equipment that you saw in the documentary.
my friend commited this offence and pulled by police driving 100mph ; still did not receive summons? any reson for this?
My 2006 polo says I’m doing 30 but I have no clue if it actually is or not, could be 25 or 33
What is an old grey thin camera by traffic lights. Cant flint anything on web thankyou
How about not speeding in the first place and then you don't have to worry about trying to find Loopholes!!
Is it true that if your caught by a camera fixed or mobile that they have to provide evidence as in a photo? Mate of mine got papers saying he was caught by camera speeding and was being summoned for it. I told him to ask for photographic evidence but they replied ‘we don’t have to provide it’ surely that couldn’t have been right? If that’s the case they could sit on a roadside picking car registrations at random and posting fines to people.
Correct. 2 photos for those machine estimating the speed from line marking on the ground.
If this is not supplied with the notice of intended prosecution, it should be made available on request. If someone denied your request over the phone, make a written one with recorded delivery and give notice that someone previously refused to provide a copy. If you can prove denial of lawful request to submit evidence (both defendant and accusation should have copies), the case becomes unlawful and you win.
Funny they have times on many bus lanes when they're in force but a car doesn't seem to be required by law to have a working calibrated clock only a working speedometer, I don't think drivers by law have to wear a watch either.
And the same could be said of lighting-up time. And many parking restrictions. What's your point?
@@paulcollyer801 Sorry Paul - My question was aimed at the OP who seems to require a law to tell him when to wear a watch!
I get your point i really do but its your duty to know the times that you are allowed in or not and therefore your duty to know the time you intend to enter . Questionable i know .
I will also say this . NEVER EVER drive in a bus lane regardless of the times shown . You rely on the cameras and the times they are set at ............................ that is asking for trouble .
@@godzillas6301 I find it safer to use the bus lane where possible and more helpful to traffic flow in either directions, your further away from opposing traffic overtaking and enables opposing traffic and traffic behind to overtake. The draw backs are pedestrians and vehicles entering the road not expecting anyone except buses using the bus lane.
What if you send it back after 14 days stating delivered to wrong address???
You usually have 28 days to respond or you will be referred to the courts. If you return it after 14 days it may be investigated and if it was properly addressed you will likely have a summons for failing to identify the driver. If its after 28 days you may already have been referred for prosecution.
Great information thanks
just a though I know of two Van drivers that were done for speeding on a dual carriage way they did not know that for a van on a dual carriage way it is 60mph limit
Depends on the van .
2 that look alike may have different speed limits .
It needs to be checked on the logbook to see if it reads plg or car derived van . The car verson will carry less weight so is allowed the same seep as a car where the van version is restricted to a slower speed .
That is correct, a friend of mine found out the hard way, he's not even a fast driver, was caught doing 64. Since he had a good record, luckily he had to do and pay for a course, no points.
They get around things by changing the date to an earlier one from the police computer so even if it arrives a month later they still have you
You do not detail the finer points - is the date of the offence Day 1 - and what if the letter arrives on Day 15 OR sent on Day 14 ?
And just how can you prove the letter never arrived (prove a negative) OR arrived late (unless you manage to catch the postman and get him to countersign the envelope with his ID and the delivery date) ?
I can maybe give you a bit more help on that one. The police would usually send a reminder notice if no response to the original notice was forthcoming within the statutory timeframe (which is within 28 days of the original notice being served). Only if the reminder was unsuccessful would they consider prosecution. As for the 14 days: It is 14 calendar days starting with the day of the alleged offence. How can you prove a negative - that is very difficult. Most successful defences to this offence come from people being able to prove they have responded to the notice in time (e.g. by presenting proof of postage etc.)
Two questions ( great video and advice as always ) ie
If the registered owner of the car forwards the details of the person driving the car at the time of the alleged offence
And that person chooses to ignore the NIP notices to them
Is the registered keeper of the vehicle prosecuted or not ??
What happens if the alleged offender can not be identified because the 100 mile trip from A to B was shared between two drivers and neither of these drivers are 100% sure it was one of them driving at the time of this alleged offence
Does The police take the registered owner to court or ie say 4 family members purchased the car and all put 1000 in each to buy it ,
so all 4 turn up to court ??
Who is the court case against ie registered keeper or owners ??and how does the court decide who is the legal owner of the car when 4 people purchased it together
The register owner of the car is not the legal owner of the car
Anyone ignoring a NIP, be that the registred keeper or a driver that has been named, will likely end up with a summons. The registered keeper having complied and identified the driver would not be liable for prosecution if they correctly named the driver. Its the registered keepers responsibilty to identify the driver, failure to do so is an offense you may have to answer in court. However you must not guess, if you are genuinely unable you can ask the police for any additionaly information/pictures (they don't have to) or you can argue that in court, but you would want legal advise specific to your case first. The owner or owners are not relevant except if they happen to be named on the NIP.
Is the registered keeper of the vehicle prosecuted or not ??
Nope , you are now a witness against the other person and have already signed to say they are the driver at the time of offense .
alleged offender can not be identified because
Register keeper then gets done as they should know who was using the car at the time .You are ment to show due dilligence in whom is using it even if it was lent to 2 people at the same time . Yes this is unfair but its a loophole closer .
so all 4 turn up to court
Person on the logbook is the registered keeper . If there is more than 1 person named they all get taken to court .
Who is the court case against ie registered
They seek the registered keeper as in the person named on the logbook . The owner doesnt matter given it could easily be someone abroad . The registered keeper is simply that , the person registered to be accountable and in the event of being needed can answer to the hows and whys of a cars activities .
@@godzillas6301 very much appreciated for this info
The onus is on the owner, and you cannot fail to disclose the true offender properly (unless cases with other unforeseen circumstances IE car stolen). Repeat offender Katie Price tried to sort of pull off one like that. Refusal to name who was driving her pink Rangerover while at the time of crash and she did try the runaround show on the cops, before sticking to an overall no comment strategy. Later she entered a guilty plea of failing to tell, then failed to appear in court. Tried to play the ''I'm not available, in rehab due to PTSD'' card and maintained she was not driving at the time.
From memory I think she had a 2 year ban and 6 points + fine, or she had 6 points previous so got slapped extra.
''or ie say 4 family members purchased the car and all put 1000 in each to buy it , ''
No it does not work like that. There is only one owner declared on the UK standard V5 ownership document. But then you can name several drivers for the car to the insurance company.
I've heard of one loophole so far, and that is the registered keeper living in a different country can't be summoned. The only others being able to get away with that, are ambassadors.
@@Manu-Official the name on the log book is the registered keeper of the car
Not the owner !!!!
Does the 14 days include weekends or is it 14 working days
I always thought it was 14 working days, which works out to be about 20 calendar days.
Calendar days.
does the flash constitute the "warning"?
Im going to presume this is what counts as the warning:
‘You are going to be reported for consideration of prosecution for [offences]’
So if I am both the registered keeper and the driver, and I don't receive a warning at the time or a penalty notice within 14 days, then there is no prosecution. Unless the letter has been sent out within the required 14 days and subsequently delayed in the post. Some loophole!!
There was a little old lady cycling up a hill and a guy in a jag comes by and offers to tow her up the hill. "Just ring the bell if I go too fast" he said. A guy in another jag goes past that the first guy hates. So he tries to overtake him. They are going flat out past a police speed trap at the bottom of the other side of the hill. The officer radio's back "Erm Serge, you are not going to believe this. I just clocked two jags both doing 134 miles an hour and there's a crazy granny on a push bike ringing her bell trying to get past both of them".
When driving 2005 land rover at 70mph according to the speedo it shows as 66mph on sat navs/ googlemaps.
I wonder which is more accurate?
Probably both accurate, but more likely the Land Rover accurate with a deliberate Over estimate of around 10%, I suspect
@@BlackBeltBarrister I stick to the original speedo reading as my actual speed not maps just in case.
On a relatively straight road the GPS speed should be the most accurate, most car speedometers over-read by around 5-10%.
Vehicle speedometers MUST over read the speed (never UNDER) up to a maximum of 10% error.
Tachometer's are calibrated for new tyres. Given Land Rovers have big chunky ones,
if you are halfway to the legal tread limit, this would affect the Tacho's accuracy quite a lot.
Sat Nav satellites include relativity in their calculations and use atomic clocks . They are accurate.
What happens when the vehicle has been sold on and the dealer has not registered it their businesses name?
It's down to the seller to notify DVLA of change of keeper.
On sale day, seller sends his own half of the V5 registration document back to the DVLA, that document will include the day of sale.
Helpful.
So the law states it's complied with if sent signed for (registered & recorded delivery no longer are a thing) so if it's not delivered & the Pol, only sent it 1st class it's up to you to prove they didn't send it signed for ? What's the point of this section of the Law the Pol will never say they sent it 1st class will they ? & if it arrives late How can you prove this - you can't. What a pile of crap & we're expected to respect the law ?
Maybe a daft question, but what happens if you nominate another as the driver, they then nominate you, you then nominate them and so on? Will the NIP just stay in limbo for as long as you keep nominating?
That varies. I have heard of cases where a judge has taken action and asked for a police investigation if one of them did not own up. At that point it becomes far more serious.
I do that all the time...
After two or three "changes of name" most have been lost in the system...
I've rid myself of a possible four speeding infringements this year!!
@@bobmatthews151 Id be super careful fella . If they suss what you are doing they would have reason to venture back in time and if found to have done it in the past then its fraud all round and 4 years sentencing guidelines .
@@gordonlawrence1448 I seem to remember from some years back that Wilkinson's Road Traffic Offences (the Bible) stated that you were not obliged to answer questions from the police on this topic. The police, however, will be investigating an attempt to pervert the course of justice which when I last looked, carried 7 years, I think, and so I don't entirely see how what is said in Wilkinson squares with the usual caution about no answering police questions. However, if you are silent and the police have no other evidence as to who was driving, any prosecution will fail at half time in court on the basis of no case to answer.
As an officer I would give the driver a verbal NIP. But to remove any ambiguity and challenge in court, I would complete the paper work at the office among which I would create a written NIP on a pro-forma letter, following my force policy . This I would post in the appropriate manner ASAP when the post office counter was open. The Notice of Intended Prosecution should be in the following words. “You will be reported for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for the offence of ************”. Then finish with reminding the accused of the usual caution under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, noting any response. I would then have the accused sign and time our conversation in my pocket book.
I was done for speeding by a hand held camera by a police man they said I was doing 35 in a 30 but then I looked up they give you 10 percent plus 2 miles a hour so why was a done because 10per cent takes it up to 33 mph plus 2 mile a hour takes it up to 35 I just cannot understand it i did a online speed awareness
@@squicker ok well i have done my course but i did ask for a photo of my exceeding the limit but never got one
We're did you get your black belt
Re David Beckham, did a great thing for the poor people of the UK and took on these authorities and beat them on the 14 day. So black belt barrister try and get the facts right as the trust in the law of this country can only be taken on by RICH people
This is why I keep dashcam footage from my car for no less than one month. I also scrupulously observe speed limits, I should add.
What about if I was caught speeding on the way to a 15 day holiday and I only got back on day 16 to find the letter on the doorstep?
Your case is still live. It's when the NIP is sent, not when you recieve or are able to respond to it.
They just have to prove the day it was sent and postage m first class on day 13 is considered reasonable to be served in a 14 period
The date on the notice, and the time difference with the date on the envelope. Your own whereabouts during that time frame do not matter. Whether you're behind the door or not is irrelevant.
This is probably so much less confusing if you simply stay within the speed limits.
@@croikeymatesthrowashrimpon8130 it’s against the law.
@@croikeymatesthrowashrimpon8130 not irrelevant at all and I’m sure not an argument that will stand up in court.
@@croikeymatesthrowashrimpon8130 with that argument why make anything illegal? Laws are there for a reason. It’s best to stay within them.
SHEEPLE, get your booster before they run out ...quick, quick, run.....
@@croikeymatesthrowashrimpon8130 I can drive. I don’t see how you see me as staying within the rule of law as an argument that I can’t drive. You seem to be the one who has the problem with driving and the bad reputation. Laws should be adhered to. If they need changing then they will be changed through the proper channels. Breaking a law simply because you don’t agree with it is not a defence or a valid reason to do so. That just makes you a criminal and as such should be punished accordingly.
I was always under the impression that it was 14 working days, which is about 20 calendar days.
14 calendar days of the date of the alleged offence for the NIP to be served on the RK.
I got a camera flash a few Years back ,I was doing 34 in a 30, fair enough no excuses, I was offered a speed awareness course which I paid for did the course, no points and that was the end of it, a local person in a position of power however did a similar thing, tried to blame everyone else for the offence and got a 1 month jail sentence, I don't know how much was served, but some time was served , karma at work, and I should think a criminal record.
I would bet that sentence was for contempt of court.
@@gordonlawrence1448 sorry, wrong, it's ''perverting the course of law'' actually. Contempt of court applies when you start being demeaning to the judge or court.
What happens when the police pull you over,write the ticket, but put wrong details on it,such as wrong street name.
Fun fact my boss got Caught doing 130 mph last year and still has not got a date to go to court big back log still driving about.
Excellent news.
Good job he didn't hurt any of my family or a court hearing would be the last of the tools problems
@@wodens-hitman1552 sorry hard
@@wodens-hitman1552 Good job you weren't around the day I made 165 mph on a 1000cc Yamaha; you big, scary hardcase!
@@michaelandrews4403 Police Constable Softnuts here - you have confessed to a serious offence and we will be in touch in the near future. Which Yam btw?
Excellent useful Report as usual. If you have time to comment - I was prosecuted and fined with penalty points for "speeding". Thought I was in a light industrial area where the limit is usually 40mph and was doing just under that, however, both the 30 mph sign AND the camera were hidden by overgrown branches!!! Saw the White lines too late, braked but was 'flashed! Fined £100 plus 3 points! Tried to challenge this but was 'scared off' with a possible £1000, 00 fine!! Were the Police legally entitled to fine me? True situation where I must have not been the only one! Believe it or not, went back to film situation but the branches were "trimmed" back by the Local Authority!!! Double exasperation! Also caught again in Grove Way Cirencester a dual carriageway, entered it at 50 mph thinking I was ok but caught by Mobile Police unit as it was a 40 mph restriction, the sign very small and easily hidden by other traffic!!! No appeal, fine £100 3 points - outrageous! If a sign is NOT CLEAR is there cause for redress?
No - on both occasions you were guilty of the offences. The fact the equipment didn't comply with guidelines is an entirely separate matter - just thought I'd answer for BBB as I expect he's very busy and he looks rather tired
@@GaryAppledale - Well if that is legally correct thank you very much!!! Tried to engage legal teams but one said it was very risky! Again thanks, especially as it is not an uncommon situation. (Sod it! :-))
@@MaverickSeventySeven As i see it you offer this only as mitigation or seek to get out of it as the equipment is not fit for purpose .
Mitigation is an excuse after the fact .... you would still get done but now with court costs .
Demonstrating the equipment wasnt fit for purpose is a minefield of hassle . Theres reports of people getting off after the yellow sticker to indicate it is a speed camera was missing and therefore the camera hidden . This would have been your target defence . If theres signage indicating there are cameras this negates that claim as would the bushes hiding them . They would see it as you were warned and ignored both the signs and the speed limit .
If its anything i got done for doing 50 in a 40 that the cop listed as a 30 . He was on the 40 side of a canal bridge and its 50 on the other .
How do you plead ? slightly guilty or not at all as the cop got it wrong . Speaking to a JP she simply stated it would get altered in court and the fine would rise to £400 . I would be admitting to speeding but only altering the amount i exceeded by so wasting my time and wouldnt get off thanks to this .
Go back on location and take pictures or video while driving by, with dashcam if you have one, or passenger filming.
If the evidence holds up you have a case. In your case it won't. Until next time:
(Assets Publishing Service, UK government website)
Traffic Signs Manual - Chapter 8 - 8.1.7.
''It is also essential to maintain the necessary clear visibility distance to traffic signs.
Regular inspections should be made, particularly in summer when the rapid growth of foliage
and grass is most likely to cause obscuration. Examples of obscuration by dirt and growth of
foliage is shown in Figure 8-1. Advice on clear visibility distances for different types of sign is
given in Chapters 3 and 4 and in LTN 1/94 (see 1.6.1). ''
When you access the document at that chapter, just scroll down one page and you will see photo examples.
How on earth are you supposed to prove when you received a letter?
I got away twice for parking. Once by the police and the other by the council. How? The colour of my car was wrong on the letter on both occasions. I never answered the notices. I heard nothing from the police but I called the council and they dropped it. the colour of my car was dark green metallic. The one who booked me from the council said it turquoise and the police said it was blue. I know why the police got it wrong. In a certain light, it did look blue.
I can beat that. While I lived in Nottingham I got 17 parking tickets from the council as it was a permit controlled area where I lived. 16 I managed to prove it was their fault for dragging out my application (I sent all paperwork to them recorded delivery). The other one when I sent the paperwork back I also sent photographs of their parking enforcement officer driving across the pavement to get to my car. That one seems to have disappeared, funny that.
A Sunday 3pm
A vulture came out of nowhere to ticket my car parked opposite my house, while I was unloading bags and bags of shopping. I come back to the car, she just applied the sticker thing on the windscreen, still tapping away double speed on her device.
''Hey I literally just dropped my shopping bags, what are you doing here?'' I says
''too late it's already in there'' she says
''I don't think so'' while I reach for the sticker, while jumping in the car handbrake off 1st gear clutch start engine take off
Her face melted.
The double yellows were broken to a certain extreme, no T marks on either side, and a white line running all the way in the middle. I sent my appeal to the council the next day pointing out that this is not acceptable under the Highway Code. Along with pictures etc, plus thrown the Highway book at them.
I finished saying, ''Besides I do believe that your photo evidence may be quite unsubstantial in a court of law.''
Her face melted as she raised her ticket device to take a photograph, I was driving on the road and giving her the finger.
The council cancelled the ticket on grounds of '' Technicality - Other''
The next week there was a bloke scraping it all off and painting brand spanking new double yellows, with T marks.
Apologies if you have covered this but looking for a definitive answer as there is a lot of contradictory information on line which is " is speeding classed as a criminal offence in 2023"
My friend has a problem. He was trapped by speed camera without knowing and the NIP was sent to our house with his name, he uses our address because he lives on a boat. However, it was received late Jan during the lockdown and us being elderly he wasn't allowed to visit to collect his post and we are not allowed to tamper with his post, even had we known what was in it. So it sat there until we could find a way of getting it to him, which was too late to make the required response in 14 days or whatever. So now he will have to attend Court and all because Boris put us in LOCKDOWN!
So what's your answer to that?
Matter dismissed, by lockdown laws you were unable to establish physical contact, and Royal mail does not re-deliver on boats.
The prosecution may argue that you could have established contact by phone or internet communication, but the law does not concern itself with some ''could have'' and ''should have'' and rejecting the blame on a third party recipient.
Look up the De Minimis law,
The term de minimis is taken from a longer Latin phrase which translates into "the law does not concern itself with trifles." De minimis exceptions are commonly included in contracts to limit the application of covenants or other restrictions so that they do not apply in circumstances where the failure to observe the restriction has negligible impact. It can be used by the courts as an exclusionary tool to dismiss trivial matters from litigation.
In Laymans terms, the covid lockdown law interfered with the delivery of the prosecution notice. There's got to be something else in terms of noncontradiction law. Seeing this case, your friend will have to name you as a witness.
@@Manu-Official Thanks for your response. In fact he knew we were holding post for him from various sources, it's just that we didn't know who it was from (items from the Police aren't marked 'support you local Police and pay the fine enclosed'). We each tried different ways of how to get it to him, but in the end my son had business that carried him past, sort of, where his boat is moored and took it to him. My son was in our bubble because we often looked after our granddaughter. It will be interesting, but he hasn't learnt any more about it yet.
Is the 14 days apply to private parking fines? Please
Hi,
1. If a ticket is issued after 14 days, the notice is invalid.
2. The operator HAS to prove that the contravention occurred IE photograph of car AND driver.
3. A loophole is naming someone else as the driver and the operator has to chase that person.
4. If you park more than 1 hour, you have 5 min consideration period and 10 min grace period at the end, meaning you can pay for 1 hour and leave within 1 hour 15 min and not be charged.
The Police will not get involved because it's a civil matter. ''Any grant, forfeiture or fine before conviction is illegal and void'' (Bill of Rights 1688/89)
@@Manu-Official thank you
I am now an expert on turning into side roads , cycling in the centre of the lane , being stopped by police officers and speeding . I find these videos very absorbing and was educating the wife whilst she took me on a spin this afternoon. Well she said what has that to do with us here in Panama, Central America…I had to confess probably very little but it sure is interesting to watch …here a neatly folded 20 dollar bill allegedly solves all these tricky problems . ….note the allegedly bit . Have fun UK with your new codes !
😂
Ah yes. The "Officer, I am really sorry about this. Isn't there some sort of On-The-Spot fine I can pay in cash?" defense.
What do the police do to none uk residents if named as the driver of the vehicle at the time of the offence?
Not a lot now for EU we no longer share fines since Brexit
Cant speak for UK but I believe Australia logs the fine against your license and immigration record. Next tine you arrive at the border you run the risk of visa cancellation on the basis that you owe an Australian State unpaid fines.
If you drive a company car, or it's a lease-purchase/PCP, you are almost certainly not the Registered Keeper, you won't get the first NIP / S172, and the 14 day rule won't help you.
Wrong. The V5C states who the registered keeper is with regard to PCP. You simply don't own it until paid off. Company vehicles are a different matter.
How can you prove that you got the nip outside the 14 days tho? Mine came 19 days after the alleged offense. I emailed the company, the police replied saying that they're satisfied that it was sent in the guidelines as it was dated 10 days after the offense.
My argument is I can write you a letter dated from 4 years ago, it doesn't mean I wrote it then. If you ask me, the police force are royal stitch up artists
And I was going into a 40, got zapped 20 yards before the post by a hidden mobile speed camera
That's good to know 👍🏻
Is not road signs just for advice ; are there still freeways for all and anyone to travel on . I Travel 🆓 .
I was driving with the flow of traffic, by slowing down I would be at risk of causing an accident as the car behind was driving too close for me to be able to stop in a safe manner..... It didn't help he was banging me with flashing blue lights and flashing his full beams.
There was a little old lady cycling up a hill and a guy in a jag comes by and offers to tow her up the hill. "Just ring the bell if I go too fast" he said. A guy in another jag goes past that the first guy hates. So he tries to overtake him. They are going flat out past a police speed trap at the bottom of the other side of the hill. The officer radio's back "Erm Serge, you are not going to believe this. I just clocked two jags both doing 134 miles an hour and there's a crazy granny on a push bike ringing her bell trying to get past both of them".
Hi is a notice a offer to contact
What about fines with no speeds on it. For example expensive speed on A55 but neither you're speed or raod speeds on the fine?
Only a court can impose a fine.
You cannot plead guilty according to a bit of information that was not specified.
How would this work, if you had your car registered to a trust fund with the car insured for all drivers, who would be liable as technically you don’t own the car.
The registered owner (be that a person, company or any other legal entity) is responsible for notifying who the driver was. Else the legal owner will be prosecuted for failure to supply the details.
I work for a car hire firm. Our company owns the car but have to pass on the driver info.
@@jakebullet1731
You mean registered keeper. There's no such thing as a registered owner. Owner, registered keeper and keeper (at time of event) can all be different entities.
Ownership is irrelevant. It's the registered keeper that can be held liable. A company can be registered keeper and could be fined but obviously cannot be given points.
@@paulcollyer801 myself and a friend got out of a speeding ticket for this. We were both driving the same car the same day and you couldn't see who was driving from the photo taken from the back.
We admitted the offence had happened but we didn't know who was driving and were unwilling to perjure ourselves in court as we didn't know who was driving.
We told them we were willing to pay the fine but not take the points as it would mean one of us lying as to who was driving.
Never heard back again from them. This was a few years ago though, maybe 14 years ago.
Question: is it 14 days from the day of the offence?
And another conundrum for you, if you pass three speed cameras at excess speed without slowing down between is that one or three offences?
@@chrisstephens6673 smd :) lets see how long it takes for you to figure that one out
@@amarildoc7625 logically it is one offence but reported three times by the cameras which have none.😏
@@chrisstephens6673 Three offences, in three separate locations.
@@magistratesblog7928 if one doesn't slow down between three cameras in one road, how is it three offences? It may be reported three times but it is just one crime, although protracted in its nature. If three people report you for breaking into a house are you guilty of three offences or one? Do you understand the comparison?
what if the registered keeper has no driving licence?
in the video you mention that they have to be sent 'recorded' mail which would surely mean someone has to sign for them to either confirm or reject delivery. you then go on to say theyre usually sent first class, which would indicate that the police are trying to save a few pennies by not using recorded delivery. fair play on trying to save money BUT surely if theyre not sent recorded delivery, the onus is on the POLICE to PROVE beyond reasonable doubt that the papers were actually received? ive had mail arrive nearly a week later than its supposed to have arrived that was non recorded (admittedly less important) even through the quieter spells Royal Mail have. where would someone stand in this situation, and how could EITHER party prove their version of events if the notices arent sent by recorded mail?
Been sent nips after 14days twice over the years both times NO CHARGES 👍
Of course speeding cameras don't catch you if your overtaking a double decker bus or HGV at the time !
Another interesting thing is that (as I understand it) for a limit to be enforceable, other than the National Speed Limit, a Traffic Regulation Order needs to be in place. In Cheshire East many TROs are missing and thus many limits are technically unenforceable. Happy to be corrected on this.
I have heard of this sort of thing before, not in cheshire though, cannot remember where..
So basically the 14 days means nothing , if you didn’t receive it all they have to say is it was mailed within the 14 days , if you didn’t receive not their problem your done . Given the UK police’s tendency to be less than economical with the truth and the fact that they have such a high ratio pro rata against the general populous of officers involved in, rape , drug dealing, domestic abuse , murder , child abuse , drunk driving etc (1,000’s of them convicted since 2015 so likely the true figure is higher knowing how they all cover for each other ) then it’s hardly surprising you’ll never see justice if indeed you never received a summons , they’ll judge make you what ever story they want.
Your driving down a road in Wales come around a bend there are a couple of houses to the left and a village a few hundred yards you slow down to 30mph but too late a van was hidden just at the bend. Now £80 a whole day listening to two blokes talking spinning out what could what could be said in 1hour. Come out with a headache and knowing you have been robbed
What you should have said is, the NIP needs to be dated within 14 days of the said offence, if its dated and sent later than that, its not really valid
Or you could not break the speed limit to start with.....
Funny how mobile speed camera vans are often placed at roundabouts where the speed limit changes down from 40 to 30 unexpectedly, and they are partially concealed on the opposite side of the roundabout where they won't be noticed behind a bush, and where the new speed sign is partially concealed by roadside foliage until you are right on top of it. And the reason for the speed change is a few houses, 500 yards down the road round a bend. The voice of experience...
I was pulled over 3 weeks ago by police in my lorry he said i was on my mobile but i wasnt my phone had fell off the dashboard going round a roundabout i came up to traffic lights where traffic was stationary thats when i retreaved my mobile phone that had fell down under my brake pedel the officers where outside police station getting into there car at time he put blues on and spun around and pulled me he asked me to get out so i did he said i was on my phone that i totally denied and told him that phone had fell off dashboard ect he wasnt intrested in what i had to say asked for licence he did his checks then i asked for my licence back and walked back to my lorry and said nothing to him but see you in court as he said he was reporting me for jue care and attention but ive heard nothing he didnt give me a ticket or anything so how long have they got to procecute me.
As he has informed you of the intent to prosecute they now have 6 months I believe to bring that prosecution
@@TheJbsportstech i was told they have 14 days from the offence to inform me by letter that there prosecuting me.
@@camstewart4567 that only counts normally if your caught on camera as you have no idea if your being reported or not . The officer in this case stopped and spoke to you in person and would have said words to the affect of “you will be reported consideration of prosecution for the offence of careless and inconsiderate driving” that qualifies as a NIP you have been given verbal notice of the intent to prosecute. Therefore the 14 day is only to notify they have a case against which has been done by the officer so no they have six months to take it to court now
@@TheJbsportstech Well looks like ive a day in court coming as i wasnt on the phone i was stationary at a set of traffic lights and he has no evidence its just becoming a joke what these people get drivers for now thanks for your help.
@@camstewart4567 you need to legal advice, the holding of a hand held mobile device while driving which includes stationary with engine on is an offence. The vehicle does not have to be in motion. They deliberately wrote the law so people wouldn’t just stop in ghe middle of the road or at traffic lights to use a phone. What you have done is pulled over safely switched the engine off and retrieved the phone. Anything other than that does leave you open to prosecution. I am not a solicitor so you need to get solid legal advice piston heads forum may be a start
I don't recall the 10% in the title being mentioned in the video
Question please.
Is it acceptable for the NIP to be signed/printed by a Computer Printer and not in Wet Ink with a Pen!?
Thanks 👍
Yes.
This wet ink thing is a myth
Totally acceptable. Even search warrants do not need to be signed in wet ink, as long as they are authorised by the correct person.
Don't speed people, think of others especially in build up areas! 👍
'Any grant, forfeiture or fine before conviction is illegal and void'
Bill of Rights 1688/89
Works if no clear evidence is submitted against the defendant.
This is so simple to get around, get a lighter right foot!!
Or just better observation of the speedtraps
@@dcarbs2979 no not really. If you observe the speed limits you don't need to have the hassle of looking for speed traps as well as looking for all the other possible hazards.
@@malcolm6951 Either one are quite easy without thinking.
People: Stop trying to wriggle out of bad driving! Read the Highway Code, follow the law, and above all, have some regard for others' safety! Please.
another loophole that is not actually a loophole.. can you see of any instance where the cops make a traffic rule up that is not always utterly uncontestable ? they will NEVER allow any 'loopholes' when it comes to them gathering money..
I would not call it "loophole". At most it is procedural impropriety and I am sure it is extremely rare where NIP doesn't come within 14 days. It has happened to me several time where PCNs for decriminalised offences like Dart Charge, Bus Lane or Parking, or NORs, or OFRs came late or didn't come at all, but NIPs are always there like 3 days after the event.. at most I have seen one 11days after the event and it was Christmas time, so loads of non-working days and heavy parcel traffic etc. I would guess NIP being late is one in a million case which is guaranteed win (as you have evidence it was late), NIP missing or incorrectly reported as missing maybe more common and then maybe police didn't send it recorded, so they may not have evidence to support that it was sent out. So perhaps the "loophole" is to claim one has not received the NIP, hope that police has no evidence and try to get away this way, but it sounds to me more likely to result into "contempt of court" or "preventing course of justice", far worse than just speeding offence.