The 5.9s pull like crazy from down low because of the inline 6, but can't keep up at high rpms when the snail on the duramax spools up. Two different set ups, two great trucks, Ive owned and driven both.
@@noahranker4133 absolutely yes, a duramax is way better then a crappy dodge lol no comparison, the cummins is good, but it's in a piece of shit truck. The duramax is good, with a better tranny connected to it, in a much nicer riding, better built truck
Chris Thompson is have to agree with you, the inline 6 has tons of torque from down low and when you catch the spool right in that turbo that when you see a good result I like both trucks duramax and Cummins I love the shit out of dodge but I’d take a duramax as well but the Cummins I think would win a lot of things
Cummins for the win, but in all honesty it really depends on who has the most weight and traction, im a die hard Cummins fan but it is what it is. That's why i dont always agree in tug of war. But durability and longevity and also efficientcy definitely goes to Cummins.
Durability and longevity definitely go to the duramax. The demand tax is proof of that enough but the Cummins is absolutely more efficient by a landslide. Need the Cummins with the Alison in a toyota hilux....indestructible
I have a 2006 Duramax. I had a brand new 35' travel trailer shipped up from California. The hotshot driver who pulled it up for me had a 2009 Duramax, he had just had his first rebuild at 900,000 miles.
that'd work and keep adding weight till one can't pull the hill anymore. of course tire size gear ratios and all of that play into it as well as raw power, if I am running highway gears and you have a lower gear ratio your going to kill me on the climbs.
Lol Dyno proves HP not workable power a Cummins will out tow and work a power stroke or Duramax even in 2024 lol all them now days ant reliable but for a straight pulling truck can't beat a Cummins and people will say the trans but you throw a Allison behind a Cummins or any trans that isn't built and the low end torque kills it
FUCHK nooo that Allison goes into limp mode if it experiences ANY torque converter or clutch pack slip. Fuck that bullshit. The cummins would make it slip easy.
This is probably the best tug of war that I've ever seen. You guys are interested in safety and giving a good distance between you and the rope. Thanks for that. Dodge rules. but tug of war really means nothing but it's fun to watch and cheer on your manufacturer.
@@deandreblackwell8933 I agree but honestly Duramax is every bit as strong. Isuzu's bread and butter is heavy industry. They know how to build diesel engines.
fart sucker not impressive to you that is, you are just simply blind to facts lol, 6.0 just had bad heads (and were abused by owners) and the 6.7 cummins and power stroke are very good motors, the new 7.3 is out just not selling because as we both know it’s not 2020 and the original 7.3 was a godly motor that had good low end torque for being a v8 as well as decent power numbers at the time (idi or turbo)
Im waiting for someone to say well the cummins has a longer bed and more weight in the bed with the tool box..... Fact is this test proves nothing. The first person to spin the wheels first always looses. Could be a 1/2ton vs a 1ton and if the 1 ton floors it and loses traction the 1/2 ton will win.
Yeah and if I semi spins a prius will pull it... Not. . A 1 ton will always pull a half ton. Too much weight difference. But as far as equal truck. Yeah traction always wins.
Dodge dominates the towing arena. This little "competition" really proves nothing anyways. Just go build yourself a Dodge on their website VS GMC VS Chevy VS Ford and see the difference in payload and towing capacity. Then go look up the average miles of a each type of truck. Can't beat a RAM.
That_boy _daniel ok don't believe me go onto the Internet search up Dodge Ram 3500 toque then search up f350 toque it will say 900 ram and ford 925 to get the exact number go to fast lane truck then go to new river gauntlet where their towing campers the ford has more torque and they even say it does
That_boy _daniel not to mention I seen a cummins try to pull a small tree stump out the ground it took a while where my uncle Shawn pulled a full tree out with his 2005 ford power stroke
All diesels minus the 6.0 and 6.4 and 6.2 and 6.5 are all good lol mainly the duramax post lb7, the powerstroke 7.3 and 6.7 and all cummins are good 👍 im a duramax man but I would take me a 12 valve or a good old 7.3 any day
The first pull the duramax got a head start but the second time they were even and the cummins won.
5 лет назад
Whoever breaks traction first loses, that's the only reason the durashit got the first one. A fast pull back means you're winning that round fast, a slow back means you're really winning not by fluke or mistake. Also, doesn't matter which engine or gear ratio you have, it all boils down to weight+traction+reaction time. The split second you feel your tires slip backwards, slam your brakes on. If you let your opponent get too much momentum while you're spinning your tires while being towed backwards, the harder it will be to recover and you'll most likely lose. I've been to a few..dozen truck tugs. Dodge drivers are smarter because we are the only ones to put water kegs in the back and front of the truck xD it's not cheating if it ain't in the rules
To the gentleman standing 15 feet from the Cummings truck on the second run please find a video of a strap breaking. When they snap they can cut them in completely in half as in one part over here and one part over there, like a 25,000 pound bull whip snapping. Truly my friend be careful
And wheel base. I noticed right away the Cummins was longer (giving more advantage). I'm not hating or being a whiner, just what i noticed. This one was pretty fair, tho. And i will admit the Cummins beat 2/3.
nmdiesel89 bull shit. Video for proof then ill brlieve it "ive seen an old worn out 350 drag a 700hp truck" my ass bro. A carbed 350 has around like 150 horsepower. You add the fact that its worn out its probably pushing 100-125 horsepower maybe less.
I have a duramax and a 6.7 cummins that duramax is a fast truck and the exhaust is nice and loud even straight piped and fully deleted the 6.7 is quiet
There's a reason they put cummins engines in semi trucks and not Dmax or Power Strokes. What's funny is Volvo makes a decent diesel that is 80,000lbs worthy. But not Chevy or Ford. :)
Chevy or ford don't make an engine that big for semis . And the cummins in the pickups are just for the pickups . They are even to small to put in semis . Those semi engines are huge . I would buy a caterpillar if I was driving a semi any lol . But at the same time ford and gm made semis back in the day to .
The way I see it, Dodge has Never made a Diesel engine. Chevy is too stupid to know how to make one so they have to buy one from Japan. Ford is the only who has made their own diesel engine. And you can't deny that the 6.7 is pretty good. Talk crap on Ford after you guys have your own engines :D
I'm a chevy fan, all of my trucks have been chevy. .but in truck pulls it's all about traction, weight, suspension and driver like dude said Below. Power means nothing at all
actually, when the black smoke starts to roll out, is when the boost kicks in. because you can see the dodge on the last pull how he stepped on the gas very slowly, then when the boost kicked it then it started blowing black smoke. but also my theory does not mean that they both hit the gas at the same time, but its a possibility that the chevy just stomped on the gas, and smoke immedietly came out. but, you never know.
I have 3 Cummins all 5.9s 1 is a 12 valve they might not be the most powerful pickup truck but they have the good power for what you need them for crazy reliability and you can make them so much more powerful then other trucks and they will not explode like 6.0s pwrstrk and 6.6dmaxs and etc
Take a 6.0l / 6.4l out of a ford or a duramax out of a chevy replace it with a 5.9l or 6.7l cummins mate it together with a allison 6spd and tow the whole world.... best tow rig.
Todos los tironeos que veo y hacen para ver quién gana, no sirven hay factores a tomar en cuenta para una competencia de fuerza , si lo van a hacer lo correcto debería sería igualar el peso en la parte trasera, o poner un peso igual en cada pikup, caso contrario no sirve porq la pikup más liviana perderá porque patina. los fabricantes cada día ponen más.motor , pero tratan de minimizar el peso de carrocería y chásis po esa razón no se puede hacer una comparativa de fuerza de esa forma. Una comparativa de velocidad escacrprable y ahí la que ganara es la mejor.
I'm a dodge Cummins fan and owner but the duramax is not a reconfigured gas motor. It is an Isuzu diesel unlike the original 350 Oldsmobile conversion that gave everyone a bad taste years ago.
@@zaneturner4478 It's not an Isuzu diesel either. GM and Isuzu partnered together and created DMax LTD in Moraine Ohio. Every Duramax manufactured has been built there. GM owns 60%
Chevy jumped the gun first round dodge jumped the second. Fair third round. Both nice trucks, and to the people saying he's gonna kill his tranny, highly doubtful he's running a stock tranny. Allison honestly isn't all its hyped to be, firepunk is the way to go.
+TTC THE TRUTH CHANNEL 8 grand in rebuilds? why the first time it went didn't you buy a built transmission or have it built? you can buy a built transmission that will hold 650hp for around 6g.
The 5.9s pull like crazy from down low because of the inline 6, but can't keep up at high rpms when the snail on the duramax spools up. Two different set ups, two great trucks, Ive owned and driven both.
For sure. But you can make a cummins do crazy stuff.
Well said, but if I'd have to choose, I'd take a duramax anyday over a crappy dodge.
Micheal Ortiz absolutely not
@@noahranker4133 absolutely yes, a duramax is way better then a crappy dodge lol no comparison, the cummins is good, but it's in a piece of shit truck. The duramax is good, with a better tranny connected to it, in a much nicer riding, better built truck
Chris Thompson is have to agree with you, the inline 6 has tons of torque from down low and when you catch the spool right in that turbo that when you see a good result I like both trucks duramax and Cummins I love the shit out of dodge but I’d take a duramax as well but the Cummins I think would win a lot of things
the barking confused the hell out of me
+plurbleman i thought it was my phone lol
Kill Shot Outdoors::::: redkneck text message ring tone
It is still my ringtone haha!
Alex C so uhhh is it still your ringtone?😂😂😂
you cant base a trucks power off of this, whoever gets a better start wins.
Exactly. Once traction is lost, it's over. So basically whoever hits the gas first. Has to be a static load.
It's Me on the second pull duramax got the lead but still ended up losing.
Words of a dodge fan
Clearly you didn't see the second half of the video, Andrew, the Dodge raped the Chevy hard.
C.T. Productions im a chevy man but the fact is dodge is more powerful when it comes to hauling. As hard as that is to admit lol
Cummins for the win, but in all honesty it really depends on who has the most weight and traction, im a die hard Cummins fan but it is what it is. That's why i dont always agree in tug of war. But durability and longevity and also efficientcy definitely goes to Cummins.
except for the tranny which is a pretty important part lol
@@BP-uj9uq not if its manual
Durability and longevity definitely go to the duramax. The demand tax is proof of that enough but the Cummins is absolutely more efficient by a landslide. Need the Cummins with the Alison in a toyota hilux....indestructible
Did you watch the video? The Chevy dragged that dodge, then that dodge dragged that Chevy.. we call that a tie in English.
I love a V8 diesel but love the sound of that straight 6 in a cummins!
I think it comes down to specific applications bot truck s are great!
Inline 6 Cummins is hard to beat for pulling especially from a dead stop!
That Cummins was a going, cant beat that low end torque
Are you ready and as he says are you ready again duramax takes off lol
Yea
We all know who's the king of low end torque
I liked that the Ram tried it in 2wd for the first pull then put in 4wd for the last 2 pulls.
I like how the chevy put it in 4wd right off the bat. He knew he was out matched.
There is no doubt that Chevy diesel power has come a long way but durability and dependability is another thing
Yep. Goverment motors. Anything they touch is crap
I have a 2006 Duramax. I had a brand new 35' travel trailer shipped up from California. The hotshot driver who pulled it up for me had a 2009 Duramax, he had just had his first rebuild at 900,000 miles.
@@hurricane8634 ACTUALLY, IT’S GENERAL MOTORS, SOOOOOOOOO
Can’t beat them Cummins when it comes to raw power nothing like them 💯💯
Who cares! Drive it and enjoy it.
That long bed and tool box make a hell of a difference
Dyno is the only way to have bragging rights
shane knopp ehhhhh
Strap a trailer loaded the same and see who pulls them up a steep hill faster.
that'd work and keep adding weight till one can't pull the hill anymore.
of course tire size gear ratios and all of that play into it as well as raw power, if I am running highway gears and you have a lower gear ratio your going to kill me on the climbs.
Lol Dyno proves HP not workable power a Cummins will out tow and work a power stroke or Duramax even in 2024 lol all them now days ant reliable but for a straight pulling truck can't beat a Cummins and people will say the trans but you throw a Allison behind a Cummins or any trans that isn't built and the low end torque kills it
pretty much what i expected
I would love to have a Cummins with that Allison GM transmission that would be the ultimate
They say the new aisin transmission is better then an allison. But me personally idk. Never had one.
FUCHK nooo that Allison goes into limp mode if it experiences ANY torque converter or clutch pack slip. Fuck that bullshit. The cummins would make it slip easy.
The thing about these ‘ Tug of War’ is both vehicles need to have the same tire’s.
You could hook a gasser up and achieve the same results. All about traction.
More factors than that. Torque plays in as well
Yea, Point is there to many factors to count in to decide which truck is better.
Helps in a tug-o-war if both drivers know what the heck they're doing to get accurate results.
Never in a million years would I ever do this with my truck. I own a duramax but I like 5.9s almost as much.
This is probably the best tug of war that I've ever seen. You guys are interested in safety and giving a good distance between you and the rope. Thanks for that. Dodge rules. but tug of war really means nothing but it's fun to watch and cheer on your manufacturer.
mann 5.9 liters sound soooo nice mann good video
I do like cummins quality... but it's the rest of truck that I can't really say the same for
I agree. I think dodge trucks are just so unattractive
Deandre Blackwell no just stop ford fan
Can’t really say that a Chevy is a good truck either pos rust front end problems
@@deandreblackwell8933 I agree but honestly Duramax is every bit as strong. Isuzu's bread and butter is heavy industry. They know how to build diesel engines.
Beautiful 3rd gen love that year.
That dodge is going to break that Chevy
Ahhhh the good ole days 💪🤟
Of course the 5.9 is better, mostly because of government regulations but long body gives him to much advantage. Either one is a great truck
Cummins had it all day!!!!!!!
@The Tool Guy typical Dura Crap excuses.
Nice love that Cummins
Love how alot of people say "Go Cummins Go" but no one is saying that's BA Ram. Great engine Junk Truck
Keith Heath it’s a shipping crate
"Great engine, junk truck", I feel that's true of every diesel, except some of the shit Ford has put out lately.
fart sucker lol, 1,058 ft lbs of torque ford is making now, fym?
@@steezymk8815 is the new 7.3 for sale yet? The 6.0 and 6 7 were not impressive, and the old 7.3 is overrated for everything but reliability.
fart sucker not impressive to you that is, you are just simply blind to facts lol, 6.0 just had bad heads (and were abused by owners) and the 6.7 cummins and power stroke are very good motors, the new 7.3 is out just not selling because as we both know it’s not 2020 and the original 7.3 was a godly motor that had good low end torque for being a v8 as well as decent power numbers at the time (idi or turbo)
"Jim Bob this aint workin suh gooood. Caint figure it out"
The solid axle in the dodge has a little advantage over the ifs cv axles in the duramax.
still an inline 6 is the way to go CUMMINS...
Yeah but the trucks they put them in are junk
The Dodge wasn't in 4wd the first time
Thats the best sounding cummins I have ever heard. Sounds mean, but not like a damn crop duster. Nice trucks!!
4" straight pipe
Alex C I got an 06 cummins now cant wait for it to sound like that
It depends on the year and the grip with those tires they are both customized
lets go cummins lets go cummins
Im waiting for someone to say well the cummins has a longer bed and more weight in the bed with the tool box..... Fact is this test proves nothing. The first person to spin the wheels first always looses. Could be a 1/2ton vs a 1ton and if the 1 ton floors it and loses traction the 1/2 ton will win.
Yeah and if I semi spins a prius will pull it... Not. . A 1 ton will always pull a half ton. Too much weight difference. But as far as equal truck. Yeah traction always wins.
*****
Go watch the duramax vs the vw video. A 1/2 can def pull a 1 ton, I've saw it happen.
Sure an all wheel drive v10 diesel suv vs a 3/4 ton in 2wd. Put a 4x4 1/2 vs 4x4 1 ton and 1 ton will win
Yep in all comes down to traction and weight distribution,
***** a what???
Dodge dominates the towing arena. This little "competition" really proves nothing anyways. Just go build yourself a Dodge on their website VS GMC VS Chevy VS Ford and see the difference in payload and towing capacity. Then go look up the average miles of a each type of truck. Can't beat a RAM.
Amen
It's Me actually the power stroke has more torque with 860 and the cummins with 850
Bryce Swiger powerjoke you mean i had three its a v8 with diesel parts they suck ass cummins all day it has way more torque
That_boy _daniel ok don't believe me go onto the Internet search up Dodge Ram 3500 toque then search up f350 toque it will say 900 ram and ford 925 to get the exact number go to fast lane truck then go to new river gauntlet where their towing campers the ford has more torque and they even say it does
That_boy _daniel not to mention I seen a cummins try to pull a small tree stump out the ground it took a while where my uncle Shawn pulled a full tree out with his 2005 ford power stroke
I don't have that truck anymore, it was a good time... Saludos!
All diesels minus the 6.0 and 6.4 and 6.2 and 6.5 are all good lol mainly the duramax post lb7, the powerstroke 7.3 and 6.7 and all cummins are good 👍 im a duramax man but I would take me a 12 valve or a good old 7.3 any day
The first pull the duramax got a head start but the second time they were even and the cummins won.
Whoever breaks traction first loses, that's the only reason the durashit got the first one. A fast pull back means you're winning that round fast, a slow back means you're really winning not by fluke or mistake. Also, doesn't matter which engine or gear ratio you have, it all boils down to weight+traction+reaction time. The split second you feel your tires slip backwards, slam your brakes on. If you let your opponent get too much momentum while you're spinning your tires while being towed backwards, the harder it will be to recover and you'll most likely lose. I've been to a few..dozen truck tugs. Dodge drivers are smarter because we are the only ones to put water kegs in the back and front of the truck xD it's not cheating if it ain't in the rules
Way to put em to work. The diesel investment is paying off
To the gentleman standing 15 feet from the Cummings truck on the second run please find a video of a strap breaking. When they snap they can cut them in completely in half as in one part over here and one part over there, like a 25,000 pound bull whip snapping. Truly my friend be careful
That dog tho lol
Cummins all day
It is pretty much even, the winner is just the one to hit the gas first
William logan the chevy hit the gas first on second pull and still lost
Diesel
Just comes down to the driver, weight and traction. Seen old worn out 351W and 350 trucks drag 6-700 hp trucks like toys.
And wheel base. I noticed right away the Cummins was longer (giving more advantage). I'm not hating or being a whiner, just what i noticed. This one was pretty fair, tho. And i will admit the Cummins beat 2/3.
nmdiesel89 bull shit. Video for proof then ill brlieve it "ive seen an old worn out 350 drag a 700hp truck" my ass bro. A carbed 350 has around like 150 horsepower. You add the fact that its worn out its probably pushing 100-125 horsepower maybe less.
dude had it in 2wd First no wonder the he got killed. 4wd dodge is a hole another animal as you can see!!!
Yes, I did have it in 2WD the first time
I'm pretty sure they are both suppose to go at the same time
Outside2001 Guy they did on the second pull
I hate chevys with a passion and am a dodge guy but I will say, it's all about grip
Same!
Increíble Potencia de la Dodge es lo mejor para trabajar
Dodge is heavier
I have a duramax and a 6.7 cummins that duramax is a fast truck and the exhaust is nice and loud even straight piped and fully deleted the 6.7 is quiet
There's a reason they put cummins engines in semi trucks and not Dmax or Power Strokes. What's funny is Volvo makes a decent diesel that is 80,000lbs worthy. But not Chevy or Ford. :)
Chevy or ford don't make an engine that big for semis . And the cummins in the pickups are just for the pickups . They are even to small to put in semis . Those semi engines are huge . I would buy a caterpillar if I was driving a semi any lol . But at the same time ford and gm made semis back in the day to .
The way I see it, Dodge has Never made a Diesel engine. Chevy is too stupid to know how to make one so they have to buy one from Japan. Ford is the only who has made their own diesel engine. And you can't deny that the 6.7 is pretty good.
Talk crap on Ford after you guys have your own engines :D
I'm sorry, what about you not having an engine?
👂Mr. JDM.
You tell me to get a life? Look at you replying.
Please reply again with your shit answers 😐
Curtis he's just saying
Yep, the Dodge has the best traction.
BILL8637 Because of the longer bed too.
I'm a chevy fan, all of my trucks have been chevy. .but in truck pulls it's all about traction, weight, suspension and driver like dude said Below. Power means nothing at all
Ive owned both. Love both
Wish I could be between the trucks and inhale the fumes when they rev their engines
Has anybody seen a stock 2020 duramax vs a stock 2020 cummins video on here?
The Cummins one best outta 3 it’s clearly superior
Its literally all about who trees who, if you get the jump, you win, tug of wars prove literally nothing.
Did Elon put you up to this?
Ram 2500 ❤❤❤.
Don't f*ck with the horns
actually if you look at the tailpipe smoke, the duramax hits the gas before both times....still can't beat that Cummins lol
actually, when the black smoke starts to roll out, is when the boost kicks in. because you can see the dodge on the last pull how he stepped on the gas very slowly, then when the boost kicked it then it started blowing black smoke. but also my theory does not mean that they both hit the gas at the same time, but its a possibility that the chevy just stomped on the gas, and smoke immedietly came out. but, you never know.
The Cummings only lost the first time because 4wd was off
I have 3 Cummins all 5.9s 1 is a 12 valve they might not be the most powerful pickup truck but they have the good power for what you need them for crazy reliability and you can make them so much more powerful then other trucks and they will not explode like 6.0s pwrstrk and 6.6dmaxs and etc
It really just shows who has better tires
No it's stronger
I think to get this truly right they need to have computers in there and both idol to the same torque then go
Or maybe just a slow pull. The fast shit doesn't show much of anything
It’s funny because this pull doesn’t tell you what truck can haul more weight.
2017 gonna have a 454 hp duramax in it cant wait
Top Job and power stroke and ram still have more
Bryce Swiger 😂😂 you goofy ass the power stroke is only 410 hp nd Cummings is 393 hp dumb ass💯
Doesn't matter. In line 6 will still kick it's ass.
Inline 6 always for me
The Chevy has more power but Cummins has the best traction I like both
Wrong again.
Excuses come on ! Cummins won and the solid engine ever end of story
They both must hate their drivetrains
To all the experts the ram tried the first pull in 2wd lol
Make a truck with the cummins engine paired with the Alison transmission!!
That’s gayyyyy
I prefer to use my truck to make money.
That's what I drive Cummins dodge 2006 4×4
Same dude! Best looks best engine!
Carson Thacker o4 engine is better
I know where there are 2 diesel trucks for sale, but they both of torn up transmissions.
I love both trucks but I would take a Dodge over a Chevy any day
UnitedStatesMarine29 the dodge sounds better
alex gibbs I like the 3rd gen with a 2nd Gen manifold swap it sounds pretty good
@@jake-qn6zy really? I'll have to look that up, thanks man.
alex gibbs no problem
Sorry for the Chevy boys😢
Take a 6.0l / 6.4l out of a ford or a duramax out of a chevy replace it with a 5.9l or 6.7l cummins mate it together with a allison 6spd and tow the whole world.... best tow rig.
Cummins.....Cummins......👊👊👊
CUMMINS BETTER THAN ANY...☝👍👊
But doge still has after market parts
Lol drug his ass when they actually started at the same time
5.9 Cummins vs 6.6 Durarust..
Fuck you
Todos los tironeos que veo y hacen para ver quién gana, no sirven hay factores a tomar en cuenta para una competencia de fuerza , si lo van a hacer lo correcto debería sería igualar el peso en la parte trasera, o poner un peso igual en cada pikup, caso contrario no sirve porq la pikup más liviana perderá porque patina. los fabricantes cada día ponen más.motor , pero tratan de minimizar el peso de carrocería y chásis po esa razón no se puede hacer una comparativa de fuerza de esa forma.
Una comparativa de velocidad escacrprable y ahí la que ganara es la mejor.
Who let the dogs out
Dodge or ram all the way, best truck all around. They have a true diesel in them not a reconfigured gas V8.
I'm a dodge Cummins fan and owner but the duramax is not a reconfigured gas motor. It is an Isuzu diesel unlike the original 350 Oldsmobile conversion that gave everyone a bad taste years ago.
@@zaneturner4478 It's not an Isuzu diesel either. GM and Isuzu partnered together and created DMax LTD in Moraine Ohio. Every Duramax manufactured has been built there. GM owns 60%
We do we all watch these videos if we know Cummins is better?
Very eco friendly
always gotta be one...
julioigna71 pansy
Unfair
Cummins always wins
as long as it aint a ford im stoked!
Chevy jumped the gun first round dodge jumped the second. Fair third round. Both nice trucks, and to the people saying he's gonna kill his tranny, highly doubtful he's running a stock tranny. Allison honestly isn't all its hyped to be, firepunk is the way to go.
+TTC THE TRUTH CHANNEL 8 grand in rebuilds? why the first time it went didn't you buy a built transmission or have it built? you can buy a built transmission that will hold 650hp for around 6g.
See same class
this proves nothing,,,, traction, wins regardless