Never do this in a D&D encounter!
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- Опубликовано: 22 янв 2024
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These are 5 things you should never do in a D&D encounter...and what you should do instead! Let's talk about adjusting encounters on the fly during a game.
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I would say its more normal for enemies to focus on whatever foes go down quickest(aka perhaps the least dangerous) But thats just me and my preffered strategy as a forever dps. I particulary like to takeout healers first unless thiers a special mechanic that makes that a bad idea, if no healers then any other mage of some kind based on the situation if no mages then supports, then debuffers, and when i say healers i mean squishy healers not like paladins in full platemail. (I don't just play D&D where every healer wheres heavy armor and has a mace)
Something I have used to adjust difficulty on the fly is adjust monster perceptions in a dungeon. Maybe the gobos in the next room hear the fight and investigate, maybe the brace for the adventurers maybe they just assume the others are bickering again and ignore it.
As an old school player/gm I find it really interesting that the idea of running from fights is a lost art. I’m not sure when it got lost, I’m not sure if it was more players from video games, or the games creating more super heroes at lower levels? But when I do get a chance to play (which is not often) these days and battle starts going sideways I still remember I can run. It shocks the other players, as I am leaving them to their fates, but I can always come back and loot what is left. :)
Retreat happens all the time when games actually have retreat rules. 5e and Pathfinder don’t.
Letting 2 PCs die to save a 3rd every time rolls go bad just isn’t satisfying for most players.
That worked in OSR games because character investment was generally low, but that’s not the play standard anymore.
(i.e. if a character died every time the hobbits retreated, none of them would have reached Rivendale in Lord of the Rings).
I think part of the issue is that RAW, it's kinda impossible. In 5e at least most monsters will win in a foot race against PCs, and the chase rules that could be used to facilitate a retrat are awful and cumbersome. As a result few classes can actually retreat from a fight with a good chance of success, outside of higher level games where you could teleport out.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
Retreat isn't always about rules mechanics. Imagine the party is struggling against a pack of wolves... they can throw down food as a distraction and run. If it's orc mercenaries, they can throw some gold or gems and run. A caster can use an illusion to present a more tempting target. Most monsters either can be distracted or they're slower than the players. There's very few times a clever group of players can't find something to give them time to break away and flee.
To those talking about retreat ..
There weren't rules about Retreating in the older games either. OP is right 5E players never retreat because they have no fear. As this was a P2 Game however a good amount of fault probably lies on the PCs Tactics. A Shambler is slower than most PCs and between P2 having a rather interesting Stealth sytem and a 3 Action Economy, they could've easily ran. They just didn't. The mentality has shifted.
Why do you need rules for retreat? Oh right opportunity attacks, that stupid rule. Or maybe a vindictive GM that wants to rundown the players that ran?
Yea it is better to just dig in and constantly make the GM have to make these choices that Luke is talking about? It is never on the players to make better choices? You can run before ANYONE dies!
My first step is always to remind the characters that there’s nothing wrong with fleeing an encounter to rest , and then coming back to finish it with a new approach
Must be nice to have a group where half the players don’t get extra butt-hurt when they run away or lose a fight. One day I will find a group that actually plays this game rather than using it to live out their power fantasies.
@@Chris-fn4dfDo you play online or in person?
I approve of the way you solved the Shambler encounter using role play. Giving the creatures motivation and using that to 'help' the players out and can grow their adventure arc. Rather than just an encounter, they become heroes trying to rescue their friends.
We were fortunate that our tank, who is a healer and has thorns that punish attackers, was a primary target. He did a great job heal tanking.
Think the hobbits were grateful of Gandalf rescuing them 😂
I think the trick is more in making the rescue feel earned.
You could also make the argument that Gandalf is actually a player as well, that got split from the party and made it back just in time to save his friends. So he's not actually an NPC.
I used the Gandalf effect to make an antagonist for the PC’s to hate and want to kill.
The whole campaign was over powered encounters(constructed by the Gandalf to swoop in and be the hero, sometimes pinning the PC’s as the bad guys to cause reputation/trust problems for them)
PC’s needed to uncover the plan, they started calling him Gandalf in the beginning of the campaign, then they hated him. They were so happy to defeat him, they didn’t even know it was a scooby doo episode.
I once had a gm bring in a rival hero to save the party when we bit off more than we could chew. We players had mixed emotions. We learned a lesson about our own hubris, we hated that the gm rescued us, but we embraced the rescuer as a rival. He became our frenemy -- we went out of our way to show him up, and he went out of his way to show us up. Eventually, we were in a position to save him, which we did, because we were heroes; it was a memorable roleplaying moment. So maybe don't dismiss the rescue if there is a way to leverage it later.
i was gonna make a comment about rivalries and how they could make for good npc rescuers because of their narrative potential - so it’s cool that you have an actual example of this happening! rescue by a rival is such a classic trope in certain types of media, i imagine some people might really enjoy it.
My group had been teleported to the Feywild and they came across a low-level Dryad who was meant to be a social encounter. The group got snippy with her and she summoned two low-level spectral wolves when combat began. At the time I had a brand new player who was joining for a few sessions to get a feel for D&D. With the combat going south, on the new player's turn she was taking a second to figure her move. Knowing she had something on her magic list to help, I said "Take a look at your spells and see if something can help you." She eventually found the spell, but used it somewhat incorrectly, however, it was enough to break up the enemy attack and they were able to safely retreat.
I ask for a low dc int check from the whole group, and anyone that passes 10, I give them a hint about what to do so they don't die 😂
I use the a mix of having the monster start using more powerful abilities/attacks and HP adjustment, but the later in a specific instance. I think I have a meta gamer looking up monster stat blocks during a fight and they gave themselves away when they were shocked their last attack and spending Ki points for bonus attacks didn't drop the Dragon; ("Bro, are you sure its not dead?" "Yes, I'm positive it's not dead.") They were counting HP and damage. When I get a sense of this happening, and it has been on more than one occasion, I do add HP along with using more of the monster abilities.
I have meta gamers that track AC and HP. Really throws their OCD and controlling personality into freak out mode. Especially when I give a foe a feat that neutralizes the rogue and monk's ability to dodge disengage. I really hate when they hit once and ask if it is dead. so they can spread their attacks.
I just tell players I actually roll for HP instead of using the standard MM hit points.
My players cheat for HP when they level, I might as well do that, too.
@@joebogart7093 how can you _not_ track AC? If you hit on a 22, and miss on a 21, you know what the AC is.
Just like every caster is paying attention to those saves, every martial class is watching what hits and what doesn’t. That isn’t meta gaming, that is _paying attention._
If you are just randomly changing your AC with no description or mechanical reason, your players know you are just bullshitting.
@@joebogart7093It should be obvious when a blow strikes down a foe, and not letting PCs know is yet another bad homebrew that fucks over martials.
instead of NPC rescuer, I've seen a "PC rescuer
From a friend's campaign, told to me
One party member decided to change his character, but wanted to do it when his character died.
They were in a dungeon a fair bit in, when his character died,
then his new one catches up during the tough combat, and helps the party succeed, then sticks around. He joined at partial health with 1 level of exhaustion, since he got the 'quest' after the party and raced off to "beat them there" only to get there when they were in need of an extra pair of hands
Same thing happened to me in PF2. Our group had a tougher time with two skeleton monks than either of boss encounters later in the same day.
This actually reminds me of two instances in my own history.
The first was a fight when I was DMing, challenge ratings seemed appropriate just like with your shambling mounds... but the monsters weren't a common one and EVERYONE failed their Knowledge checks making the fight go from slightly challenging to impossible. While it shouldn't have been allowed based on the location and some information I had not told the players yet, when the spellcaster decided to teleport the group to safety I had to internally breath a sigh of relief as I let the spell work.
The second was a game I was the player in, among other things the DM summoned a fire elemental... but it was the fire elemental that threatened to TPK the party. Then I realized where we were, on the docks. The WOODEN docks, over the lake. After talking with the DM I got the okay to attempt to sunder the docks, taking my pc and the elemental both below the water where we fought for a few rounds and prevented the TPK long enough for them to mop up and save me from my own looming doom.
In one of my one-shots, the final encounter was a bit of an anticlimax because the PCs had talked an NPC wizard into joining their party. The wizard was a summoner, so now they had 2 extra characters in the fight which made it a cakewalk.
I could have ruled against the wizard joining them (he was only supposed to give advice) but they rolled criticals in their efforts to convince him, and the wizard did have the same goals. I didn't want to arbitrarily deny that.
Persuasion is not mind control(does not matter how convincing someone is, a straight guy who has never had a homosexual thought would not just drop his pants to go with the bard). He could have desired to come assist but he had duties that kept him from being able to go on a life or death adventure.He could have provided them a scroll of summon monster
That or sometimes I make NPC assistants purposefully not take their entire action economy -- taking two turns to cast a spell, refusing to dump spellslots in general, etc.
In your scenario maybe the wizard is willing to help by casting some cantrips, but he had better things to do with his spellslots
Instead of NPC rescuers, I may sometimes use wandering monsters who either hate the enemies or all those fighting yet happens to attack the enemies first. The monster can serve as a distraction for the party so they can either escape or gain an advantage on the distracted enemies (though they may have to deal with the wandering monster after that).
The Godzilla tool, cool.
Ironically, I've done the same in a fight involving shambling mounds...
I had a large, ornery herbivore show up and decide to try taking a bite out of them and "almost" trample members of the party, in that case a bull mammoth crashed into the scene and break up the actual fight enough that the players could hightail it out.
Another time, with other monsters, I unleashed some more powerful enemies into the mix that were not allied with the ones they were tangling with.
After all, these new enemies see it as a win/win about which side wins, but they aren't going to charge after the group if they run and might end up being the major focus of the previous monsters there
Three way battles can be a powerful GM tool, since the other sides can easily change who they are attacking for balance.
@@alexj1989 And it even makes sense tactically for them to do so.
That Shambler Vine Lash was potentially very nasty indeed. I did notice you changed tactics to give them a break, but it did make some sense from the monster perspective. Also: Krobby burn! 😂
Always Krobby Burn! Now Krobby have Fireball!!
Last week my players downed the BBEG of the arc in less than one round. I think it was the highlight of their role-playing career. Their screams of joy woke up the blocks (it was 1am). They lured him out, felt like they outsmarted him. Then they had a whole dungeon to explore feeling like gods, being reckless and escaping with a couple hp. But they were so happy I couldn't take the kill from them :)
Been binging some old videos lately, pretty cool to be here early for a new one!!
Just yesterday I had a pf2e session where the players had an epic boss fight. I guess I still have that 5e brain thinking in action economy, because I gave the boss a bunch of stuff that basically give him free action. The worst one was called Counterattack which was a once per turn free action that would hav let him make a strike if a player critically misses him. When the fight actually started I quickly realized this guy has a 50% chance to crit and this was doing way more damage than expected. That free action went right out the window as if it never existed in the first place. The fight ended up being one of the best fights of the campaign so far, through some excellent teamwork they survived by the skin of their teeth.
Ty so much. This video was soooo needed for me.
This is a great video!
I can give a good example from literally Yesterday. I run a Curse of Strahd and my players just for to the Old Bonegrinder at lv3. They had suspicions of the women (They expected them to be either vampire spawns or werewolves) but asked them for a place to sleep.
I planned if they get into a fight, the Hags would capture them and make deal to deliver them the bones from Vallaki or maybe help them sneak into the Abbey in Krezk. However (skipping the details), they figured out that they are hags and agreed to escort one of the daughters to Vallaki to sell the pastries. I also ruled that the only Hag with a Heartstone is Morgantha at this point, and at this point the hags were not suspicious, they just thought they were stupid, cause the halfling drank the Youth Elixir. The encounter was reasonably on the easier side, but that's because the players took time to prepare, but I have plans to adjust it for later ^^
This is such a good video, i have this situation at my table so often
Funny how this video comes out and last Friday during my game session I did the npc rescuer during a boss fight. Although I did it only to progress story and introduce a new player who I was running a solo campaign with to catch her up to the group in terms of story etc. She also happened to befriend an important powerful npc during her solo which lead to them forcing the boss to run away. Thankfully the other players were excited about it all and weren't upset that the fight ended and got rescued but I probably won't do that again.
Thanks for the tips and tricks Luke, keep up the great work!
NPCs stepping in to rescue PCs is a great way to move the narrative forward and bail the PCs out. The key is the PCs need to initiate it. _Sending_ , or most recently, _Feather Token (Bird)_ have been successfully used recently by my players to call for help. It changes the hopeless combat from a certain TPK to a frantic bid to buy enough time to for relief to arrive. In many d&d-like systems, full retreat isn't really an option, as the PCs are _slower_ than their enemies, but if they just need to drag the fight out from 4 rounds to 20, falling back and barricading doors can easily buy the time required.
If the PCs ask for help it's absolutely fair game, and doesn't even fit the warning against using NPCs to bail them out. What could be fudged at that point is the time until help arrives.
Love the channel! I have and will share it with some friends!
Allow me to offer this... as many have said, run away today, live to fight another day.
As a DM, never be afraid of a TPK. Don't seek it, but if that's how it rolled, that's how it rolled.
Lastly, if they kill the BBEG quickly and easily, then draw upon Homer. In the Iliad, Achilles close friend Patroclus uses Achilles armor and gets himself killed fighting the Trojans. I've had this happen a couple of times, only for the party to find out it was an ally or minion of the BBEG masquerading as the BBEG. Thank you, Homer.
Edit: parting shot... use location specific damage. In my current campaign, the rogue is lethal with the bow, a stone cold killer. Except in one encounter, she got backstabbed by a bounty hunter that hit them in the shoulder, eliminating her ability to use the bow. It made the situation more dramatic and forced a shift of tactics.
As always really appreciate the videos, some great advice.
A dramatically-usefull video, full of hands-on advises. Neat 😊
I agree 100% with the statement “death should be a possibility otherwise it’s not worth playing.”
I played a game for 7-10 year olds at a birthday party once. The young players were playing teenage detective types investigating things. instead of “death”, the players could get caught by adults and grounded. This accomplished the same thing as death because the players knew that getting grounded meant their character was effectively out of the game…same as death.
So as long as there’s a consequence similar to “your character cannot act on the world anymore.” You don’t need death. Players can be kidnapped, retire, be convinced to leave, get grounded, arrested, put back in the dog pen (if you were playing a dog rpg lol)
Number 5 I do occasionally admit to what I did. But, I am training some future DMS. I have only 2 TPKS since 1980 both in 5E. Because I allow PCs to run away or surrender. Now with Adventure League I have to remind people they can surrender which just results in the lost of the final magic item.
gotta pump those numbers up, unless your pc's are just flawless tacticians anyway.
@@DellikkilleD numbers you say. 492 AL sessions 131 Kills. 3 in the last session because they would not flee. Working on my 4th Skull.
We learn from our mistakes. It's ok to make them. I've been a DM for over 30 years, and I usually tell players what mistakes I made. I do not do that at the current session. It could be weeks later while having beers together. Players make mistakes. They expect the DM to make them, too. They are pretty forgiving about it, and it never does any harm. Another way to handle the Shambler encounter might have been to let the shamblers wreck them. Then, have them drag them away to be eaten. Before they get eaten, have the mushroom dudes save them. The PCs now get a stern talking to by the mushroom dudes, and the mushrooms expect some compensation. This could be an unexpected favor (A quest of sorts), or some big bucks, or an item they think they should have. Ungrateful PCs get turned into decor or something. Killing PCs is a form of failure, sure, but there are plenty of consequences more creative than just killing them. Lastly, I've been ok with fudging dice rolls on a rare occasion. This also goes hand in hand with rolling dice behind my screen for no reason, and pretending to look concerned. Keeps 'em on their toes. Just be careful not to snicker.
I'm running an epic level campaign for a few friends and this last session they charged into an encounter knowing the MINIONS were capable of dropping Meteor Swarm. They had the heads up that there were loads of these things swarming the target area, hiding in the ethereal plane and ready to pop out at a moment's notice while they had some dialog with a Mini-BBEG. After combat took off, the party started getting tied down, realizing the reason for a lack of meteors was because the bad guys were intending NOT to kill them, but to capture them... as things began looking a little grim, they managed to make a come back and things started turning around. At the top of the next round, I came up with a fun twist. Teleporting onto the field was an NPC friend of the party, leading a small band of warriors, CHARGING TO THEIR RESCUE! .... only to get promptly squished by a Meteor Swarm, immediately killing 2 of the unnamed warriors, and badly injuring most of the would-be rescuers. Since I had figured the encounter would turn south for the party and they might need some assistance to balance things out, I had prepped for some of the army far behind the players to teleport in, if needed, and provide support... but with them turning the tides, I thought it would be more fun to do the opposite and turn the "rescuers" into "rescuees". Can't wait to have the Mini-BBEG try to leverage their NPC friend against them. 😈
Had my players in a tournament with a variety of creatures from different kingdoms and cultures around the world. One of the encounters had 3 goblins that has some player class abilities. One lower level than the party, One slightly higher level than the part, and one over twice the level of the party.
The trick? The Highest level one had a knife wound in their head that severely hampered their intelligence (2 Int, incapable of understanding any language without their Pact of the Chain Familiar present)
One of my players with Fey Touched decided to take Speak With Animals. And used it to talk to the goblin and make the High Level Goblin think that it was the statues in the arena that had attacked it for the first 2-rounds.
It was fantastic.
We ran a session and the Life Cleric misty stepped into the middle of 7 baddies. The caster made a wind wall right in front of their front lines(fodder) the front row took the dodge action in a choke point. The cleric went down then 2 fighters then the rogue. The sorcerer was down to 4HP and asked to try and convert spell points to a spell, but he was out of spell points. He asked if it could permanently burn out one of his 3rd level spell slots. As he drew the power and felt it missing he drew harder on the power and it allowed him to cast aid on his fallen companions. The cleric healed everyone and they won the day. The orb that represented spell slots on the Warforged is now black and cannot fill back up. It still comes up from time to time. SOOOOOO cool and I would have never come up with it.
One way that CAN work with NPC saving (used sparingly) is to assure that either the NPC or his/her others are badly affected in the combat, so that they don't make a huge impact, just interference.
Said differently, the myconid example you suggested, they show up, and four of the 6 are wasted by the shambling mounds due to their vine-whip, the other two survive after helping (not saving) just enough to give them the PCs the break they needed.
OR a solo NPC gets involved, and loses a pet companion, or takes a near-mortal wound in the process and requires the PCs to save him/her.
Either way in the end, the PCs can see that the encounter took a big(ger) toll on the NPC(s).
Afterwards, the myconids (or NPC guy) explain that these shamblers have been problematic for a while, are grateful to the PCs and indicate there's a larger foe/force at work and asks the PCs to look into it. So now it focuses back on the PCs being the heroes needed to intercede and make things better.
When done sparingly - it could seem that this was all by design and not a bail out, to link the PCs journey with the NPC and their plot-hook in the first place. (Sparingly meaning no more than a couple times per campaign).
Thank you dor mentioning the other channel. Foing ober ther for Thieves Abound, right after this video.
As far as the "NPC rescue" is concerned, one idea I've seen suggested is that if the characters help a powerful NPC, the NPC could give them a Sending Stone or similar item and say basically "if you need my help in an emergency, give me a call." Then the PCs have the choice of when to use their assist, and depending on the NPC, perhaps they might not show up for a few rounds, where the party has to switch tactics to survival until the cavalry arrives. Haven't tried this in practice, but I like the idea since while it is still an NPC saving the party, it is the party's choice of when they want that assistance, and it's a reward that they've earned.
The main way I handle the "NPC Rescue" is simply having them occasionally scripted into a fight beforehand and maybe foreshadowing it (indicating that the NPC wasn't just added from oblivion to save them)
16:40 I say, if the players want to turn a social encounter into a combat encounter, let them face the consiquences of their actions.
Great video Luke
Excellent advice.
Waves
This principle is 1 of the best things a DM can employ.
Another thing about Waves is it can also be used to change the battle parameters.
Maybe you have to collapse the tunnel before more arrive or end the ritual or kill the leader....
Waves is where it's at!
This is why you should never get so attached to your characters that their deaths will have a tangible impact on you. Yes, the characters and their development over a campaign is a part of the experience, but so is their untimely demise. Death can even have as much of a positive impact as it does a negative, the survivors can use the death to spur them harder to succeed ("Win just one for the Gipper!"). I've lost many characters in my time in the hobby and it's always just been that, a lost character. Also helps that characters aren't treated like they came into the world as fully formed heroes. They lived a life as any other person in the world and, as such, they are a part of that world and it's lethality.
You forgot one: using the environment to increase difficulty and dynamic of play:
In a ruin, falling debris
In a deep cave, rising water/magma level
On a glacier or on ice, splitting icebergs etc
Outside, change of weather or temperature
In a city, involve guards/authority
On a slope, mudslides....etc
There's lots of ways that the environment can help and hinder the PCs.
4:22 I couldn't agree more.
A fight where your character is not in fear of death... isn't worth even rolling initiative for.
Good advice and info here! This is a common issue and dilemma, and this is good advice. Morale checks and "monsters don't always fight to their deaths!" is crucial to believability. Stupid monsters are not fun. Smart monsters, incl those that flee and have a grudge and want revenge, are long term fun.
A lot of good ideas here, thanks
I trained my players to never fight fair or stand and fight. I started it with giant centipede with god-level grapple and insane danger, so they fed a bandit to it loaded with bombs. It allowed me to throw some insane challenges their way and prompted them to get creative.
Had a party stumble into a gnoll encampment. And, due party to their own errors, found themselves on the losing side. And even after an impressive rebound where they regained some hope, the gnoll onslaught was taking it's toll. (Knoll leader rolled a pair of nat 20s, yikes)
Instead of pressing the attack and finishing off the weakened party, I decided that maybe, the knolls needed some slaves and pulled back their wolves to offer the party a chance to surrender.
That break was all they needed to regroup enough to flee. (As one of them FINALLY remembered they had a scroll with a gate spell)
Old school dm. I developed a campaign called the road to hell and back. Tpk three times in a row. Each time my players vowed to return and avenge their fallen family members. After the third fail, I retired the game, feeling guilty. That was 35 years ago. Those friends still talk about those games.
Something I have used to adjust difficulty on the fly is adjust monster perceptions in a dungeon. Maybe the gobos in the next room hear the fight and investigate, maybe the brace for the adventurers maybe they just assume the others are bickering again and ignore it.
Great video Luke. I'm DMing my first campaign at the moment, which is Lost Mines of Phandelver. The final boss the Black Spider (drow wizard) looks a bit underwhelming. Your video has given me the idea of adding a few Fireballs to his spell list (he currently only has level 2 spellls) in case he starts to go down too easy. If I need to use them I'll make him say something like "looks like I underestimated you, or perhaps you underestimated me" before he lets rip with one!!!
I ran my very first session as GM last week, and in the very first round, of the very first combat, one of my players got sniped by a goblin archer, who happened to roll max damage, and KO'd my player. He was an Aarakocra wizard. Who happened to be flying 30 feet up. If I'd made him take fall damage, he would have been definitively dead. I just flat out told him, "Dude, I don't wanna kill you on our first turn of our first session because of an unlucky hit. We're gonna skip fall damage this once." He was very grateful, as he'd already purchased a mini in preparation for the campaign. My prior DM was also in our group as a player and have me a thematic out of just having him fall into a tree, since he was flying above a grove atm. That same character also went on to roll a crit later and one-shot a bugbear in the bossfight of the session, at level 1. Made for a very interesting first session.
3:42 Hey, woah, hold up. Shamblers are level 6. If your party was level 4 and you threw 2 of those at them, that was an Extreme encounter (50/50 TPK chance). Moderate would have been for a single one. Even if you run 6 players, that's still a Severe fight. Either the calculator was wrong, an input got missed, or you adjusted the Shambler's stats to be Level 4 creatures, but I didn't think it was the last since you didn't mention it.
Probably the best time I made an encounter easier to avoid a TPK was a fight against a necromancer and his skeletal minions, it quickly became clear that that party was barely able to handle the minions let alone the necromancer. My solution, the necromancer did nothing, did not cast a single spell and when the minions were defeated he ran into an adjacent room. When confronted by the party it turned out his name was Tony and he didn't want to be a necromancer but his father, the real necromancer they were after, was forcing him into it, he just wanted to be a priest but was too weak willed to oppose his father.
When I had to make an encounter harder - sudden ambush against both parties by a band of Hobgoblins, turned into a three way brawl.
I have 20 years of GMing experience and I GM and play with people that were playing and GMing about 5 years before me. There is one thing we all agree with our combining experience: in every d20 system of every edition, there is always some monsters that are stronger that their "challenge rating" number. We notice it and, after the game, make side-by-side comparison with other creatures of equal CR and similar "shape" of stats and attacks. You'll find a CR 4 monster that are almost as strong as most CR 6 monsters and put two of them as a moderate encounter (because the "CR calculator" says it is moderate) and then you'll see your players get destroyed even when they're landing most attacks/spells. This is not due to their stats on damage and hit points, but the game developers sometimes makes a special ability of the monster be very effective without adjusting its CR up from it. They believe that ability is of "standard value" for a monster of that given CR and move on. Mistakes happen, we don't hold against the developers, but GMs should expect this to happen and improvise.
Most of us use the same solution to this: when we see things are getting out of control: as soon as we feel that the PCs should've won, they win (the current attack drops the monster to zero hit points) and we don't tell the players we did this.
It is not about removing difficulty and death in the game, we only do that when we find that the encounter difficulty is being deceitful and also NOT due to the PCs having a noticeable bad luck at dice.
I just ran a game for a group of 6 new players, I had adjusted an encounter beforehand to account for their bigger action economy but the dice were treating them very poorly so I ended up just not adding modifiers to damage rolls about halfway through the encounter, it was still a tough fight and they all had a great time and no one was the wiser.
one suggestion i have for all dms is if you worried about an encounter being to easy or to hard test it.
i always have access to my players character sheets. so when i want to test an encounter i grab their characters and run the encounter on my own time.
💘 I love the dm lair streams.
🎲 It's a real live play.
I remember going through a TPK, and what it came down to was just dumb shit the players did, and character morality, we encountered a cursed archfey who could freeze anything she touched, the curse on her meant that she would never be able to feel true warmth, except in some VERY specific scenarios, she even froze fire. We were definitely not at a level we could handle a deity, think we were like level 6 or something, the DM gave us a few outs and the players just kept shutting them down or completely ruining the chances offered. In the end we were left with but one last recourse, to leave one of the PCs to their fate in her lair and leave, my character was pragmatic, and definitely had some issues with the character in question, she was willing to leave them to their fate so the rest could escape with their lives, even the sacrifice was encouraging us to leave them there and go. The other two players refused to leave them behind no matter what though, one of them being strongly against leaving a team member behind no matter the cost, and they pissed this archfey off enough that our fates were sealed.
My players just got through an encounter. They went through a hallway, right past a monster. Into the room at the end, right past the monsters. Into the next room, where they encountered more monsters. That's 5 monsters they've passed without a fight. Find a crystal, breaking it opens a side door. They break the crystal, summons a water elemental. The door opens, there's another monster inside. That is 7 monsters now, one CR 2, and the rest are CR 4-5. Instead of taking several fights against one or two creatures at a time, they wait until this point to attack, instigating a fight against these 7 monsters. These encounters were supposed to be a bit tough, but nothing truly serious for a level 6 party. Just something to wear them down over time. Not... what we wound up with.
Through negotiation, they got the water elemental and the CR 2 creature to back out of the fight, and then the Tabaxi Rogue almost died but everyone did make it through in one piece. Except the Cueyatl Moon Priest. He got split in two by the Barbarian.
This was a great video 🎉
My players were in a dire situation because that had been captured and were slotted for the chopping block. To get them out of this situation my cleric player made an offhand comment about wishing he could have a celestial rage from his nature god. So I took this as a cleric with a temporary wild shape. He had been praying and doing good deeds around the world for awhile now. His reward was a random table wildshape. He got very lucky (became a trex) and broke free with the party. They saved the city and he lost his transformation after a hour.
I usually try to err on the side of making foes too weak instead of too strong. If they're too weak, they can call in reinforcements or run away, which are reasonable things for them to do. It's harder to weaken the monsters on the fly. It's a lot harder to sell the idea of the master swordsman suddenly missing all the time...
Some thoughts:
1. NPC rescues - one way to play this in a way that isn't a deus-ex-machina/DM-saves-your-bacon kind of thing is to just full on elevate it into a fixed mechanic - in the event of a likely TPK the party has a 50% chance of NPC rescue or other lucky twist of fate. If the manage to live thru one such check (where presumably the check succeeded), the next check is 30% chance. After that 10%. After that it's fixed at 1%. To make it a bit more realistic, put the check on an additional cooldown (have to survive 3+ encounters before the check re-charges, at the lower % chance of course). It's a safety net but not a guarantee, & can mostly be played out in the open
2. Re: modifying monsters on the fly - many adventures straight up use hacked versions of bestiary standard monsters anyway... including power-reduced versions for tutorial purposes.
As BlainSimple showed, Shambling Mounds should not be toyed with lol
this might be a coincidence, but it's funny that a moderate encounter with a Shambiling Mound and it ended up going south again.
I like the retreat rules from 13th Age. If the party agrees to flee then they get away. However they suffer a campaign loss. The BBEG plot ticks closer to doomsday etc. Later things may be more difficult. There may be things that are time sensitive. Prisoners may be killed. There's a cost to fleeing but it's not directly to the PCs.
I like the idea of a powerful NPC coming in to save them, but it's a FAKEOUT. Either they are allied with the BBEG or they are there to help but get like, disintegrated to show the players the stakes of the fight
Good idea! That second method looks good for both the role-playing and for the dice-rolling, especially in a system like DND 5e where players worry a lot about the action economy. The NPC sacrifice doesn't let off the PCs without cost, but it gives the PCs a chance to retain agency while staving off immediate TPKs for a round.
Kaneepo the Slim.
He killed the whole party. *Twice*.
I let them reset and with foreknowledge try again and he mopped the floor with them again. So I let them make a 'rescue party'. There's an area of the dungeon that's perfect for converting into a prison. They overcame the traps, and the new PCs saved the two that remained, freeing them to make their way up to Kaneepo for a third fight, and this time they were successful. Nasty fight from the first book of Gatewalkers, PF2.
First encounter at level 1 the caravan that was taking the party to town is attacked by bandits. I only had two players at this point but lowered the HP of the bandits thinking it would be fine.
First bandit does max crossbow damage to the ranger almost killing her. The party immediately decide to run. The ranger aces an animal handling check on the horses of their wagon and takes off at Max speed. The remaining bandits fire at the escaping wagon. They hit two civilian NPC's riding with the party but none of the players.
The gnome fighter fires back with her bow and gets a critical hit dropping one of the bandits as they make their escape. I am much more mindful of monster abilities and damage now.
I've broken an unwritten rule when concerned that a TPK would happen, as luck would have it, this was a pair of shambling mounds as well. The mounds were dealing too much damage too fast, and it looks like we're going to be printing fresh character sheets and rolling d6's. Then one player gets a lucky crit. And I narrate how the player cuts off a limb from the monster, eliminating multi-attack and cutting its damage output in half.
I've also given a monster a "surprise vulnerability" to a damage type. Of course these golems take double damage from thunder. The concussive force breaks them apart because the wizard who made them wasn't willing to spend enough on quality materials.
I always tell my players, "You have the option to run away from damn near every encounter I throw at you. It's my job to build the campaign, and to put things in front of you. Your job is to choose how to take it."
That said, I have thrown them a bone or three in believable ways.
But, especially in Dungeons of Drakkenheim, they've had to run away from more fights than they took.
I had players who went wild when I had an npc show up but I didn't do it to save their skin I did it to reference to someone from their back story and they loved it
In one of my recent games, the cleric saved the entire party from a tpk with a lucky divine intervention roll. It was awesome.
Good tips
I use waves if it’s too easy for the party.
I’ve also had monster’s surrender
I had the same issue when I brought out the shambling mounds the first time
Sometimes, if the encounter is boring or too easy, I just create a cool ability for the creatures or for the leader.
Gonna say this again, NPC assistance feels _really cool_ when the NPCs have to resort to absolutely drastic measures to help. Probably _the_ most memorable encounter I've _ever_ had in a TTRPG was in a PF1e campaign, where the party was fighting an undead dire crocodile that was about to kaiju its way through a port city if we didn't stop it. Why was it memorable? Because the city guard had to resort to the literal _cannons_ on their coastguard ships to meaningfully contribute, and their damage was only about on par with what my cute little naiad swashbuckler was doing with her rapier. At one point she crit the thing with her rapier, and immediately afterwards a cannon shot hit it for 2/3rds the damage. (For all the 5e players who watch this channel, a crit is not a rare event for a PF1e swashbuckler. She scores a critical threat on a 15 or higher, and she only needed like a 4 or something silly like that on the critical confirmation roll to confirm it. So almost 30% of the time she outdid the normal hit damage of a cannon by a fair bit.)
Also got a fun moment in that encounter where the DM had to fudge rules to have damage break a grapple, because otherwise the undead crocodile was going to use Swallow Whole on one of the party members and the damage _would_ just kill him, so she had a cannon hit knock it off-balance enough for the grapple to break. We all knew what was going on but that didn't make the moment any less fun _or_ less tense, partly because we got to share the DM's tension as she _prayed_ the dice would cooperate so she could free the guy, and partly because he deserved the consequences of his actions and we all knew it but didn't wanna kill the new player session 1, so the DM trying in a panic to rescue him from his own stupidity was _very_ funny. And, of course, it helped that the NPCs were literally using a _cannon_ to do it, because that made it a cool cinematic moment.
I know usually I'm the one who is last TPKed so I usually use my last actions to get people out of there and do mass healing, but some of it can be fun like the time I set the floor on fire to make the Big bad fall through into the basement giving me more time to get everyone out, you can always flavor retreat but this is good for the DM because he can always reuse that big bad for future encounters
One of the most epic endings to a boss fight I ever had was back in the day where we were playing Gamma World. We were fighting a death robot (whatever they were called, can't remember) and getting our butts kicked. The GM was not holding back and two of our team were down and only two of us left and we were about dead. It was like midnight and a couple of us had began packing up figuring it was over. I wanted to try and target it's CPU or something like that in my attack (which would have crippled it), and the GM said to roll a % and if I got 98 or better, he'd say it worked. I rolled a 99!! Everyone erupted in cheers and couldn't believe it (and the DM was stunned). But, I crippled it and we won. From that point forward, when I was GMing I never fudge and try to help.. I let the dice roll. Because something like that stays with you. Even today when I talk to my friends, we all remember that awesome fight and ending 40 some years later.
I have run NPCs that are strictly there for support (cure wounds, wake-up characters from the sleep spells, etc). This gives the players a feeling that they are still the ones in the spotlight, as they are relied on taking down the bad guys. But also, if the baddies are hitting the characters for a lot of damage, I could switch up the attacks on the HPs. This will give (hopefully) the players a feel that they need to defend the NPCs to give them an extra feel of being the heroes of their stories.
If I run NPCs, they are sidekicks and nothing more.
In LOTR, Galndalf being the savior NPC is a good thing. When he is absent, the hobbits feel unprotected and then they have the real adventure. I loved that
This happened in my very first session as a GM as we ran Death House from COS as a one-shot. The players were all 5th level and experienced. The party ended up on the 2nd or 3rd floor of Death House where a suit of animated armor was standing guard. Since the players were all 5th level, I had changed the stats of the animated armor (CR1) to Stradh’s animated armor (CR6). After the first round, I realized this wasn’t just hard, it was deadly. Way too hard for the party. I changed the encounter on the fly using one of its ranged attacks (shocking bolt). In stead of the suit of armor shooting its shocking bolt from its fists, I elected to fire the attack from a gem in the middle of its chest. This caused the players to focus on the gem. One player managed to grab a hold of it and tear it out with a successful strength check causing the suit of armor to fall motionlessly to the floor. The party felt great and I was very relieved to not have a TPK in the first 2 hours of my GM career.
I'd love a video on the difference between Death and Defeat. I hear quite a few youtube GM guys say that the game isn t worth it without death and defeat, using those two words like they are one .
I run my games as if they are two different things. My players know that death is on the table as a defeat option during impactful combats, but i use other defeat options during mundane or normal encounters.
For example, if the goal was to prevent a ritual from being carried out (one that releases a plague or curse on the area), then sure, death equates to failure. But so does not killing the cult leader or wizard, or taking too long to step in and interrupt it.
Time limits, objectives, keeping some NPCs alive while others need to be incapacitated - or making sure it's "incapacitation" and not "killing" that the players need to do. Plenty of ways you could accidentally fail, as many gamers can vouch for.
I'm with you on this I think I better video would be giving us options instead of death.
I can't remember where I read the article but I read a good one about a decade ago or so and it detailed how few times does any battle end in everyone dying
In my last campaign the BBE g, the entire campaign was about him trying to die and he was trying to kill himself because of his cursed immortality.
@@nathanmichael167 As an alternative, imprisonment/banishment could work. Maybe have the BBEG humiliate the party by publicly announcing their failure to defeat them as they enact their evil plan.
Just had the worst experience ever.
The group spent the entire night trying to figure out how to get into a gated and guarded house to confront an evil judge.
The group is 3rd level.
So, we come up with a plan and decide to rest before we leave the inn to attempt the plan.
During our rest "at the inn" we are all told to roll a wisdom save, a save we all rolled an 8 or less besides the one guy at or table who routinely cheats his rolls.
We were all told we take 36 points of damage. The guy who chests his rolls took half. The highest HP in the group was 27.
We all were reduced to 0 hp. The entire inn blew up instantly. All of our equipment was disintegrated and we were left in underwear, amongst the wreackage, rolling death saves.
Somehow between the 1 player who survived and a random npc, they stabilized us and nursed us back to health in a few days.
I went out and stole clothes and a dagger and basically my brain checked out. The DM expected us to "go finish the game" ......naked.
I was done. I sat there and watched youtube videos only because I didn't want to cause an issue by getting up and leaving.
Its one thing to die in a fight, its another to just wake up to enough damage to drop you to zero and lose your entire inventory sheet, to your underwear.
Its now the morning after and Im trying not to think about it because it doesn't make me angry so much as apathetic.
Having all of your agency stripped. 🤷♂️
Since the slower classes move at 25ft while a shambling mound moves at 20ft. Escape should be fairly simple (unless the location prevents this somehow). Even if the shambling mounds have grappled characters, the rest could just keep their distance and kill them with ranged attacks, then move in to retrieve the bodies.
I'm preparing a Leiutenant boss fight and some of the items they bad guy will use is a Vorpal Sword. Which is something a player desparately wants for his character. And just in case that foe crits, there will be some scrolls they can find to resurrect anyone that is beheaded.
Also, I use several of the combo's listed here to help manage a fight and make it balanced. the HP thing helps as well as stat/attack buffs. Extra cannon fodder for the BBEG helps also. I've spread the attacks, and even had the "eating" thing happen. All good advice.
The gelatinous cubes forced my players' characters to retreat. While trying to avoid the cubes, they were exploring and they found the treasure they were looking for. I added some special anti-acid arrows to the treasure to help them kill the cubes that got them cornered in the treasure room.
I use a system Limit Break/Desperate Measures rules, which let the players use custom powerful moves to edge the battle in their favor. Still sometimes running is the best option
About waves, I ran a 2E campaign, and when the PCs were lvl 3-4, they fought off 40 grimlocks. I had to do it in waves because I had no idea how to keep straight which grimlock was which, so I had them attack in waves of 10, and used 10-siders numbered 1 to 10 (0) to keep track. (We used to play white-wolf, that's why we have so many 10 siders)
I forgot to mention I used the dice as minis. I do that alot because I'm too poor to get fancy minis and don't have time to make them. Besides, the numbers help me keep track.
File under "nothing new under the sun": I DM'd an AD&D game back in '89 where I had a hill giant run away crying for his mama. Not trying to be mister "I did it first" - just amused by the convergence of ideas. Now I'm wondering if there are other PC's out there that have earned the nicknames "Facebutt" & "Buttface". 🤣
For the NPC rescuer, I do agree that its bad....most of the time.
But it can lead to epic moments as well.
For example, a PC has a parent that is missing or abandoned them. Wait for that PC to be on the verge of death, and have that be the moment the parent comes back to save their child.
That is an epic character moment.
So I would say its fine so long as the NPC has background ties to the PC, AND it creates a story moment
Very first session, simple combat with some goblins, should've been easy...but their AC was 15 and we just never could touch them, meanwhile they had the Ranger down to 2HP and my rogue was down to like 7. Our DM ended up lowering the AC...and we knew because suddenly 14s were hitting. It turned around what was meant to be an easy encounter, going wrong.
Damn rolls of 3, 3 times in a row.
"My turn? and I miss."
I think NPC rescuers can work, if it's foreshadowed. For example, stating that there's camping supplies near the dungeon, or an NPC who sent you on the quest saying that they'll send a few people after you, they just need time to get ready.
But an NPC coming out of nowhere, who isn't foreshadowed, tends to be pretty bad, I'll agree with that.
I ran a session not too long ago where my party of 3 lvl 10 characters had their long rest interrupted by a pair of shambling mounds, and it got surprisingly hairy. Seriously thought they'd shrug it off pretty easy. They'd just breezed through a fight with a beholder a couple sessions earlier. They'd gone toe-to-toe with a death knight(their first encounter with the campaign's BBEG, who, in fairness, cast a 5th level command spell and told them to flee BEFORE the fight started🤦🏼♀️) at level 7. They ended up fleeing that fight after the paladin died horribly, but they were doing pretty well up until that point. They are a strong, capable party. But, caught with their pants down, were nearly brought down by the shrubbery.
best games I have ever been in, the GM was clear that her goal was to kill the party, only constrained by agreeing to make balanced encounters, by the numbers. we were super proud to never give her the TPK, by playing smart, knowing the monsters wanted us dead as much as we wanted them dead. watching a monster target the healer, after casting healing, and totally attack after they went down was some great shit, its how it should be.
Had a dm run a molydeus against our party, it has a vorpal blade style weapon and he rolled 3 critical hits. The bard got away and everyone else died nearly instantly.
Did a random encounter where they were fighting wolves and the first round took most of the party down half health. The calculator said medium encounter, but the monsters were rolling high, and the players were rolling low. I was genuinely worried until one player took out 3 in one turn
I actually got saved by my DM in our session 1 or 2, it was our 1st mini boss fight against a half ogre on top of a high speed train. My PC was about to get molly-whopped with a crit that would've sent him off the train, but earlier in the session I had found an old corpse and put it to rest, the ghost appeared and gave me Adv on char. Checks for 24 hours but in that moment my DM decided that the ghost would take away the temporary Boon in order to save my life for showing kindness, then I ended up getting a crit on my next turn and took the boss down. I feel like if the DM can thread in natural resources from your adventures then in a pinch, I'm sure players would rather be saved by a miracle
Pulling back the DM screen may seem like natural way to break tension or excuse what you see as a failing, but I don’t do it.
I have found that players are less immersed if you start doing this. It becomes a numbers game, or an improv game. Stick to your guns (even if you’re fiddling with the mechanics of those guns behind the screen…😅). That confidence is where the magic is. If something crazy happens, act like it was always part of the plan, and you’ll keep your players guessing.
1:04 Never blunder forward mindlessly
3:06 Never fear
4:40 Never fudge dice
5:28 Never use an NPC Rescuer
6:53 Never admit to your players what you did
9:04 How to adjust encounters on the fly
10:53 Spread attacks among PCs/Focus fire
12:03 Change monster tactics
13:44 Adjust abilities, spells and other stats
15:26 Use Waves
16:40 Monsters flee
18:15 Allow crazy ideas to work
I roll all my dice in the open, so fudging rolls is out of the question (as it should be). Personally I would run any encounter with no change, even if things were too easy or hard.
But if a fight is going to be really important, I'll do a dry run of the fight on my own. I can't perfectly anticipate what players will do, but it helps.
Personally, I prefer the shambling Almond Joy, those are delicious! Good tips DM Lair!