I think VW needs Rivian as badly as Rivian needs VW, perhaps more. The execution on software as mobility has been very challenging for VW. Better get running fast, BYD , Gelly, NIO are coming… holding one’s breath vs the Chinese competition won’t be sustainable. Large OEMs seems to be caught in too much internal political turmoil, Ford discovered this with the Lighting development, as a result they are changing the internal development motions to survive, Jim Farley’s latest interview was clear, it’s Tesla, BYD/Gelly and whoever will be nimble enough to be around in 20y from now, time to change is now.
BYD software is not that good given they are a very new company. Furthermore as a western company you don’t want to rely on Chinese software for your products.
@@ev.c6 BYD has WAY better Software than Legacy Automakers in the US and Germany. And Tesla is NOT a Legacy Automaker, contrary to what the guest said. They're disrupting those Legacy Automakers and will continue to cause LESS vehicles with ICE engines being made. They're profitable on their EVs and others are not, other than maybe BYD, depending on how you allocate.
Sure seems like Rivian should be building all the delivery vans it can. There is a huge market for commercial vehicles. Why are they not ramping up volumes of commercial vehicles. Amazon, FedEx, UPS, Walmart, Target and others all need delivery vehicles. Slow rolling the production ramp leads to higher costs.
It was only about 6 months ago that Rivian was "Allowed" to start selling Delivery Vans to companies OTHER than Amazon. They will continue to ramp that up over the coming years. Both Ford and Rivian will benefit at they continue to make more Delivery Vans / Commercial Platforms.
Not really. If it goes to quality, all 4 suck. If it goes to tec, tesla is miles a head to anyone. But chinese EV makers are by far the cheapest and fastest in production. To this u may wanna add that at least in europe nb really trusts them. Most people think their is a good chance that the chinese EV burst at random into flames (no matter if its true or not). Simply said their is still nb out their selling mid range (price) high quality EV's. I think thats what they are aiming for
True but China's EVs won’t come to Europe, either. China desperately needs an open EU market to outlet their BEV b/c of their overproduction, but that’s the exact reason why not. Saying as if Chinese cars were an another option is a delusion.
The point is that VW is trying to get a better foothold on the US EV market with this deal, but I also asked him specifically about competing with "the likes of Tesla and BYD" in that interview
Before hearing this I've assumed that Rivian would go bankrupt in the short-term. This merger should breathe life into their company which sounds like a good thing.
It’s owned by the Saudis, it’ll never go under. They will spend until someone wants to build car manufacturing in their country. So far nobody wants to due to logistical constraints. So they bought Rivian
This is one of the best investments that VW has made , they will get great EV platform and hopefully Rivian is getting VW service network here in Europe and bring R2T for EU❤❤❤
Looking at Rivians Software I absolutely agree - if VW focuses on building the best cars again and you add rivian software you've got on heck of a car!
if VW want to take on Tesla, they need to drop a lot of their old policies. Cars need to be high performance and long range. High spec by default, No to options lists. No to software locks
High performance seems like a ridiculous requirement, if by that you mean "speed". It is about price/overall cost, range, safety, reliability, service availability, looks, cool factor, i would say. Almost every time i see Tesla they are going very slow😀 200hp car with EV torque and no manual transmission is rocket-ship for most people in Europe. Even the 150hp VWs are quite easily doing 200kmh on German highways.
Not really. Rivian has great products, with the second best infotainment system in any car manufacturer in the western market. Audi, Mercedes, and BMW have all shown how incompetent they are building software. They have no idea what they are doing. This is a good move by VW. Let’s see if it pays off.
Thanks for the pretense.... Shame it's devoid of any relevant knowledge... "It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble, but what we know for sure that just ain't so" Thank you, for the proof of that Axiom,
We need to keep in mind that it also requires a lot of electricity to refine oil and to issue it at the point of consumption. Reduction in gas/petrol usage will reduce energy demand too. This will offset the increasing demand for charging.
As a chemical engineering student I can tell you that this doesn't work out. The most energy is used as heat. This is mostly produced by burning fossils not using electricity.
Focusing on Tesla is a big blind mistake, especially considering they wasted so much time and resources on that Cybertruck lemon. Every automaker should take Chinese EVs more seriously
He's NOT doing a good job on analyzing Tesla, if he thinks that VW is going to catch or surpass Tesla in EVs. If you mean the "Tesla and Apple are both Special" then Yes. However he contradicts himself by stating that VW will catch them.
The shareholders of the Volkswagen group were not originally intended to produce their own car factories but instead they have the power and ability to create for China and produce and selling to Europe
Because VW didn't listen to its CEO Herbert Diess, now they are NOWHERE and have to find an alternative strategy to stay in the BEV market. When shareholders are 3rd age and grumpy, this is the result.
Big companies keep making the same mistake over and over: They try to manage software projects without having managers who understand the culture of software engineering. It happened to VW (resulting in 3 years worth of cars with intolerable software bugs). It happened to Boeing (resulting in plane crashes). It happened to Uber (resulting in traffic fatalities). It is great that Rivian knows how to create software; the real issue now will be if VW can retain the most talented software engineers at Rivian, and also refrain from telling them how to do their job.
VW did waste around $4 Billion on their software unit however they already fixed most of the issues. The software is way better than it was. VW also has a partnership with Xipeng and their software is apparently very good.
Not so fast. It is still not certain it continues. An investigation has to be done if Rivian software will work with VW platform. Other companies tried this, and failed.
@HenkvanHoek Maybe there is a master plan, to let Rivian fail and buy tech. VW can make Rivian vehicles at a much lower cost than Rivian can on its own. Rivian doesn't have the economies of scale to be as competitive. Almost no startups have been able to survive in the Auto space....it is a tough business.
Obviously they suck at EV tech, that’s why they need Rivian. And Rivian needs the capitol infusion. This collaboration should work if they don’t screw it up.
Tesla is the Apple in the car space. Like not everyone likes iphones, not everyone likes Tesla. Some people do know what they prefer and don't need a company to tell them that they should only want what they sell.
They’re spending big now because they realised Diess (and Elon) was right and they’re in the process of realising how badly they fumbled the bag. This ship has more than 100Billion in debt, they’re gonna crash and burn due to hubris.
very informative session. My concern is will investors be patient to see the gains of losing profitability for the short term because of future market share reasons.
I’d replace “investors” with “speculators”. VW is investing because Rivian is backed by the Saudi Sovereign Fund. There are political implications all over this. The saudis will lose as much money as necessary til someone wants to help them build manufacturing infrastructure in their country
The past is not a reflection of the future.... For example the R1 models have just been revised to drastically cut their production costs.... And 7 billion is what they have on hand right now of course they will continue to accrue revenue through sales... But if you think they're going bankrupt soon feel free to short them.... I'm sure the short sellers are feeling terrific since the Volkswagen deal went through
It's become a tough place to compete. 5B is pretty small potatoes when the Chinese govt has thrown 300B + at it and controls much of the natural resources in China and various parts of the African continent.
@@almac9203 It is not about which tech is better. It is the cost of mass production of the tech. Lucid can built a cutting edge EV that cost so much that only a few people can by it. This true for Rivian right now. If They can't build a car that they can make money on then it don't really matter.
Luxury brands tend to produce less, but tend to have higher profitability.... And long-term profitability is next to impossible to determine for a startup, except for true believers and YT experts... Who are proven to be clairvoyant or fools in hindsight.
Smaller, cheaper electric cars. Legacy auto makers made billions with the appetite of their customers to buy overpriced SUVs. I welcome the chinese scare so these companies wake up to competition.
In the 1970s and the 1980s, the UK consolidated its car manufacturing to such an extent, it no longer exists. Car manufacturing has been a dead end since the mid-1970s :-)
Rivian is a Concord Effect, you lose money and you still go with production. I hope joint venture with VW will help both of them. I am not losing anything, the value of my invention is increasing every second and no one can stop it, humanity will be thankful to me for my invention.
Not sure if Tesla is that far ahead in the aoftware game. Mercedes got better self driving software and the current Tesla iterations do seem to still include a good amount of bugs. If you go with the software I would draw comparisons to the chinese manufacturers.
Legacy automakers aren't able to create EVs because it is a completely different engineering mindset. Rivian's electric motors, battery pack design and software is on par with Tesla. The Rivian trucks are incredible, but they are too damn expensive. The pandemic had a devastating financial impact on the company and now they don't have the $$$ to scale up manufacturing to production costs. Remember, it took Tesla 11 years to reach profitability. I hope this works because the ONLY way we will see widespread EV adoption is if there is real competition with Tesla. Right now, Tesla is the only legitimate EV on the market in the USA. That's a terrible thing, not a good thing. I really wish Ford would do the same thing with Lucid.
@@tjunglec yes it's just a money printer for Elon, whatever gets investors wet at the moment, or maybe he just makes an entirely new company that only does that one specific thing (poorly)
@@KozmikGizmo I'm glad you prefer dieselgate over Chinese Imports.... But all the worthwhile EV IP is coming from China, or America..... Close the door after the last EU car is built
I live in the US and drive but I hope that Tesla (or somebody else) solves self-driving. No need to own a car then. I look forward to giving up on car ownership and I suspect most people will too. I expect the total number of cars on the road to shrink once self-driving is a thing.
Zero oil use by 2030. 0 poor people. We are aiming for zero health damage from electric vehicle raw materials. Since this is not possible, we have extended it to 2050.
Too little too late and idiotic sacking & ignoring Herbert Diess. Tesla is 20yrs ahead. China battery & EV policy is 24yrs old. They invested $250B USD mastering material supply and refining chains and the battery & manufacturing tech. The EU is asleep at the wheel on resource & material supply chains. They just ain’t gonna compete without $250B+ investment over 15yrs in EV manufacturing instead of playing debt merry go rounds via tax havens.
VW have been playing catchup for years, how is buying a non profitable EV maker going to make any difference 😂? Tesla is not winning on the cars, it’s the gigafactory that is making the cars effectively. Where do you plan to learn that?
The guest seems to be stressing standardized software as a means of saving money for the manufacturer as opposed to providing value for the customer. This is called "enshitification" and is one reason we can't have nice things.
Why do you think a 55" lcd TV is now 400$ and it was 4000$ 15 years ago? Wouldn't manufacturers just keep selling it for 4000$ if they could go away with it? Why can't they? Yes companies are here to make money. But they are generally making money by providing value to customers.
@@lukazupie7220 The price decline in large screen LCD TV's is largely the result of a these (list not exhaustive) factors: (1) Basic research in electro-luminescence to create improved backlights; (2) Improved fabrication, particularly in ITO printing o circuit traces in the panel; (3) Improved manufacturing of the polarizing filters in such displays; (4) A rapidly growing market, compared to tings like cars that most people who want one already have (5) Lack of viable alternatives -- projection TV and LED-based ones exist in niches still. Projection TVs in particular require decent quality optics. (6) Room for innovation in things such as surface coatings. (7) More diverse manufacturing landscape. There were far more companies either already making televisions or computer monitors than there were automakers large enough to even contemplate pivoting to electrics. TL;DR: "competition" Note that the word "software" did not occur above.
@disorganizedorg Those are some really good points, but I would add using standardized software, would be short term gain at best. In a competitive market a company has to make bold moves, that provides value for the customer. To be a leading company, it has to lead the market in areas where others can't. Tesla hasn't refreshed its models, because it was so far ahead, it didn't have to. It used its lead to build its profits margin and CapX. Tesla isn't holding back on expansion, it is refining its expansion moves. The next refresh will disrupt the industry, again. For example they Cybertruck may look strange, but it based on some really advanced tech: 48v architecture, steer by wire, 800v and etc, these are bold moves. By the time other automakers realize how important they are, it will be too late to catch them. Many question Tesla's "FSD", but this is important to many drivers, who are not the most comfortable driving. I don't think partnerships with other competitors is the way to go.... because it limits the speed a brand can develop. In a fast developing sector why would company make itself less nimble by teaming up?? It makes more sense to buy or make a startup, develop new tech and products. Once that tech and products are mature, bring to the parent company. Hybrids cost more to make and maintain. It may seem like a good transition point, but the transition to EV will be rapid, this lull is temporary, due to higher inflation and interest rates. EVs where very expensive and now that they are on par with ICE, it is too late for hybrids to really be truly competive. This is not to say there isn't a market for hybrids, but EVs will rule in the end. What many legacy Automakers aren't realizing is that Chinese Brands are spreading World Wide. This means that most legacy brands will struggle to export leading to higher costs in the domestic markets. Exports, increase the economies of scale and this is the key to reducing costs. Tariffs will only slow the Chinese brands market penetration, not stop it. Eventually, consumer demand and General Economics will overwhelm the political will to maintain high tariffs.
@@tonespeaks what will happen is the Chinese brands will get made inside tariff umbrellas and its game over if the legacy manufacturers haven’t adjusted. The US dealt with challengers in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. They adapted and survived despite how bleak it looked at times. This is just the first time Europe and Japan had to face a newcomer.
VW has been buying into companies about to go bunkrupt. rivian satifies that criteria. VW is hedging its bets which have been placed on a buying into a few chinese car companies about to go bunkrupt. Rivian is a smsll side bet fir VW as for instance EU may make it hard for VW to bring in Chinese cars into the EU.
VW is paying Rivian for their software because they are incapable of doing it themselves. What VW really needs to do is ask themselves why they can't do it. What is important to know is that all the EV software defined car tech ultimately came from Tesla, either directly with Rivian and Lucid, etc.being staffed by ex Tesla employees or from Chinese makers directly copping the tech. I would argue that if VW can't address the core reason why they couldn't do it themselves, they are doomed to be a follower.
What is this AFS guy saying! Totally out of mind! Has he seen the last investor day pitch of Rivian just a week back? If Rivian pulls it off with focus and agility (and Tesla does one blunder) then it will be the next Nvidia of EV space while Tesla will be like Intel! VW will be like Cisco and nobody even remembers it anymore 😆
This “expert” loves plug in hybrid which is a terrible stopgap for a car. Its flavour of the month now but 40-50 mile range on the EV side is useless in the US. ICE is way cheaper if you are going to use gas at all. Especially, if you are using gas daily. Some of these experts sound like used car salesmen.
Not everything is about USA, VW mostly sells cars in Europe. I think 50mile range cars should definitely exist, even EVs, not just hybrids. I don't even do 50miles a year on my electric moped.😀 imagine paying for big battery, it would make no sense. My pathetic battery can't even hold 10miles, but it makes sense for me. Many people use their cars mostly to go to work that is few miles away.
@@lukazupie7220 when the expert is talking about the American market it is about the US. VW sells lots of cars in The US. I was at one of their dealerships two weeks ago. Conceptually, plug in Hybrids are a desperate move by ICE manufacturers to stay relevant. Functionally it is an ICE with a gimmicky 50 mile EV range added. Have fun with that. It effectively is an ICE with a second gimmicky EV power source which just increases the parts and therefore the number of things that can break. It’s also much more expensive than a traditional ICE which brings us back to the original problem of EVs. More EV infrastructure is needed and they are too expensive for what they are.
Maybe it would be better to leave EVs it to the Chinese on which to lose the money and VW and others pivot into housing, and major environmental interventions that apply to flooding, etc., for which the market is ripe and totally unexploited.
Peter Rawlinson (Lucid Motors CEO and former Tesla chief engineer), May 10, 2024.: Chinese automakers are still *"years and years behind" Tesla on EV technology.* *"If you look at the advance in core EV technology, they're still years and years behind Tesla,"* The former Tesla engineer said that Chinese EVs had progressed "immeasurably" in recent years, and were now superior to their western counterparts "in terms of fit and finish quality." However, Rawlinson thought *their engineering was still lacking.* *"In terms of the elegance of their drive train technology, the batteries, the way things are integrated … it's not even close," he said.* *"I was looking at a number of the units on display at the Geneva Motor Show and the engineering was very disappointing."*
Reduce the price and will buy your cars! They are cheaper to produce then traditional, so price should reflect as well As for now .. Expensive and Inconvenient charging time, no infrastructures
@@lukazupie7220 essentially is Electric motor controlled by computer. Amount of components 4 times less then in traditional car, and less complex to make
they had a CEO leading them and friendly with the industry leader but they fired him for stating how far behind they were and now they want to spend more money to get some EV tech.
Hydrogen unfortunatelly doesn´t make any financial sense to go into... No infrastructure anywhere and crazy expenisve. Takes around 180 EUR to refuel a hydrogen car at current prices. Planes and cargo ships, sure but cars not gonna happen. At least if there isn´t some crazy new technology to make hydrogen production cost effective, which I can tell you is very unlikely as someone who works in a chem industry. Also the fact that not that many people would find it comfortable to sit on top of higly pressurized hydrogen tank.
@@PeterĎurica-m9c Thanks for the input. I think providing the necessary infastructure for electric charge cars will be equally problematic not to mention how and where will all this extra electricity demand be produced, how to deal with waste batteries and indeed their production. All emerging technologies take time and money to develop as i'm sure you know, but it seems EVs are the preferred way forward. Let's hope for cold fusion. 😉
@@ronniew3229 Hydrogen has no path to affordable personal transportation. EVs, in contrast, are already much cheaper to drive than the current fossil fuels. $10 to fill up, or $200? Game over. Infrastructure needs to be built out for EVs, but China is showing us that the infrastructure is certainly doable. And the US has added capacity at a fast enough rate in the past and can do so in the future.
@@ronniew3229 i love how EV fear mongers use the same disproved talking points.... Good luck Googling them... Including a Coal Roller asking, where do you recycle your EV batteries recycled LOL... But they usually don't fantasize about cold fusion, ;) Once everybody has made a good faith effort educating themselves... Then a reasonable discussion can take place.... But it's a waste of time until everyone is open and honest and well informed.... Until then,,,,, Thanks for your disingenuous input. 🙃🙃
VW is a respectable Company when it comes faking dreamy emission results and now they are about to be the best EV company but there is a catch, they can not develop a software for it .Battery is another problem if those two problem get solved they can buy some Chinese Electric Motors to label them "Made In Germany". Then it only remains to put them together and find a market to sell those EV. The only remaining problem will be the price, they are going to be 50% more expensive than BYD EV.
Might have been a decent start if they were the ones innovating here, but fighting tooth and nail to stick with the old system for short-term gains isn't doing them any favors now.
they have a very good chance. Remember when Huawei was gonna beat the west in 5G, and then they just got banned? Same thing will happen with Chinese cars...
Europe is the only place where they pretend a continent is a country.... Except Australia of course where a continent is a country lol.... VW is a German company,..... And don't say some of its production facilities are outside of Germany, and in the rest of Europe... Some of its production is in China and the US, it doesn't make it a Chinese or a US company...
I think VW needs Rivian as badly as Rivian needs VW, perhaps more. The execution on software as mobility has been very challenging for VW. Better get running fast, BYD , Gelly, NIO are coming… holding one’s breath vs the Chinese competition won’t be sustainable. Large OEMs seems to be caught in too much internal political turmoil, Ford discovered this with the Lighting development, as a result they are changing the internal development motions to survive, Jim Farley’s latest interview was clear, it’s Tesla, BYD/Gelly and whoever will be nimble enough to be around in 20y from now, time to change is now.
Gelly? lmao
BYD software is not that good given they are a very new company. Furthermore as a western company you don’t want to rely on Chinese software for your products.
True, the irrational fear of superior Chinese software is a factor. Especially when you're misspelling their names.
@@ev.c6 BYD has WAY better Software than Legacy Automakers in the US and Germany.
And Tesla is NOT a Legacy Automaker, contrary to what the guest said. They're disrupting those Legacy Automakers and will continue to cause LESS vehicles with ICE engines being made. They're profitable on their EVs and others are not, other than maybe BYD, depending on how you allocate.
The only thing VW needs is new management.
More content like this! Thanks DW I love your content
Would love to drive a Rivian!
Sure seems like Rivian should be building all the delivery vans it can. There is a huge market for commercial vehicles.
Why are they not ramping up volumes of commercial vehicles. Amazon, FedEx, UPS, Walmart, Target and others all need delivery vehicles.
Slow rolling the production ramp leads to higher costs.
They don’t generate a lot of money like consumer
It was only about 6 months ago that Rivian was "Allowed" to start selling Delivery Vans to companies OTHER than Amazon. They will continue to ramp that up over the coming years. Both Ford and Rivian will benefit at they continue to make more Delivery Vans / Commercial Platforms.
It's no longer Tesla you have to win against.
It's BYD, Geely and Zeekr!
And VW is now a badge engineered Xpeng.
Add the tariffs to that fight
Chinese EVs? No…. LOL. Nothing Chinese made is a threat.
Not really. If it goes to quality, all 4 suck. If it goes to tec, tesla is miles a head to anyone.
But chinese EV makers are by far the cheapest and fastest in production. To this u may wanna add that at least in europe nb really trusts them. Most people think their is a good chance that the chinese EV burst at random into flames (no matter if its true or not).
Simply said their is still nb out their selling mid range (price) high quality EV's. I think thats what they are aiming for
True but China's EVs won’t come to Europe, either. China desperately needs an open EU market to outlet their BEV b/c of their overproduction, but that’s the exact reason why not. Saying as if Chinese cars were an another option is a delusion.
They’re 10years late. Aren’t they supposed to take on BYD?
no, they're not. Rivian is a premium American brand, not a shady Chinese one
The point is that VW is trying to get a better foothold on the US EV market with this deal, but I also asked him specifically about competing with "the likes of Tesla and BYD" in that interview
No, VW never acomplished progress, e.g. they Stole the bug design from another company, they bought the golf design from an Italian and so on
Before hearing this I've assumed that Rivian would go bankrupt in the short-term. This merger should breathe life into their company which sounds like a good thing.
It’s owned by the Saudis, it’ll never go under. They will spend until someone wants to build car manufacturing in their country. So far nobody wants to due to logistical constraints. So they bought Rivian
Does Rivian have good software?
I would love to get a rivian R1T. ive been waiting for years
This is one of the best investments that VW has made , they will get great EV platform and hopefully Rivian is getting VW service network here in Europe and bring R2T for EU❤❤❤
Looking at Rivians Software I absolutely agree - if VW focuses on building the best cars again and you add rivian software you've got on heck of a car!
if VW want to take on Tesla, they need to drop a lot of their old policies. Cars need to be high performance and long range. High spec by default, No to options lists. No to software locks
High performance seems like a ridiculous requirement, if by that you mean "speed". It is about price/overall cost, range, safety, reliability, service availability, looks, cool factor, i would say.
Almost every time i see Tesla they are going very slow😀 200hp car with EV torque and no manual transmission is rocket-ship for most people in Europe. Even the 150hp VWs are quite easily doing 200kmh on German highways.
What are you even talking about? R u saying a VW can drive faster than a Tesla?
@@Joe44944 no. Where did you get that idea from?😀
This VW transaction feels like MSFT buying Nokia to catch up to Apple.
Not really. Rivian has great products, with the second best infotainment system in any car manufacturer in the western market. Audi, Mercedes, and BMW have all shown how incompetent they are building software. They have no idea what they are doing. This is a good move by VW. Let’s see if it pays off.
mate, stick with selling tomatoes
@@bm8641 I love tomatoes. Make a point if you have one.
4:30 Now please do Market Cap.
VW - $55b
Tesla - $772b
Rivan - $14,,65b
Thanks for the pretense.... Shame it's devoid of any relevant knowledge...
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble, but what we know for sure that just ain't so" Thank you, for the proof of that Axiom,
We need to keep in mind that it also requires a lot of electricity to refine oil and to issue it at the point of consumption. Reduction in gas/petrol usage will reduce energy demand too. This will offset the increasing demand for charging.
Wow. Is that the way the do it Europe? US refineries have their own power plants ran on natural gas. They aren't on the grid.
As a chemical engineering student I can tell you that this doesn't work out. The most energy is used as heat. This is mostly produced by burning fossils not using electricity.
Focusing on Tesla is a big blind mistake, especially considering they wasted so much time and resources on that Cybertruck lemon.
Every automaker should take Chinese EVs more seriously
What a beautiful analysis on EV, Tesla especially!
He's NOT doing a good job on analyzing Tesla, if he thinks that VW is going to catch or surpass Tesla in EVs. If you mean the "Tesla and Apple are both Special" then Yes. However he contradicts himself by stating that VW will catch them.
The shareholders of the Volkswagen group were not originally intended to produce their own car factories
but instead they have the power and ability to create for China and produce and selling to Europe
German companies just love US companies which are millimetres short before falling from the cliff.
US returning to save Europe, once again. By inches and miles....
It’s a Saudi company now.
Because VW didn't listen to its CEO Herbert Diess, now they are NOWHERE and have to find an alternative strategy to stay in the BEV market. When shareholders are 3rd age and grumpy, this is the result.
Big companies keep making the same mistake over and over: They try to manage software projects without having managers who understand the culture of software engineering. It happened to VW (resulting in 3 years worth of cars with intolerable software bugs). It happened to Boeing (resulting in plane crashes). It happened to Uber (resulting in traffic fatalities). It is great that Rivian knows how to create software; the real issue now will be if VW can retain the most talented software engineers at Rivian, and also refrain from telling them how to do their job.
VW did waste around $4 Billion on their software unit however they already fixed most of the issues. The software is way better than it was. VW also has a partnership with Xipeng and their software is apparently very good.
YT experts are always perfect.... In hindsight....
Not so fast. It is still not certain it continues. An investigation has to be done if Rivian software will work with VW platform. Other companies tried this, and failed.
@HenkvanHoek Maybe there is a master plan, to let Rivian fail and buy tech. VW can make Rivian vehicles at a much lower cost than Rivian can on its own. Rivian doesn't have the economies of scale to be as competitive. Almost no startups have been able to survive in the Auto space....it is a tough business.
They supposedly did. Audi secretly shipped some vehicles to have rivian software was encoded into them before the investment.
There will never be another rivian
This marriage is called Deferred bankruptcy for both. VW ID3 in Chine 14.000, ID4 16.000 USD
German machinery technology is always better than the rest
Stahlwille are the BEST
Not so much any more too much out sourcing!
For ICE tech but not EV tech and infrastructure
Obviously they suck at EV tech, that’s why they need Rivian. And Rivian needs the capitol infusion. This collaboration should work if they don’t screw it up.
German technology is for those who are enamored with over engineering
Tesla is the Apple in the car space. Like not everyone likes iphones, not everyone likes Tesla. Some people do know what they prefer and don't need a company to tell them that they should only want what they sell.
They’re spending big now because they realised Diess (and Elon) was right and they’re in the process of realising how badly they fumbled the bag. This ship has more than 100Billion in debt, they’re gonna crash and burn due to hubris.
VW has a 200B debt just like Toyota. Tesla has no debt.
''Tesla has no debt' ? lmao
Dream on catching up on Telsa
very informative session. My concern is will investors be patient to see the gains of losing profitability for the short term because of future market share reasons.
I’d replace “investors” with “speculators”. VW is investing because Rivian is backed by the Saudi Sovereign Fund. There are political implications all over this. The saudis will lose as much money as necessary til someone wants to help them build manufacturing infrastructure in their country
Isnt rivian owned by Amazon? Why is VW investing in them?
They have over 7 billion in cash they DONT NEED the money but it’s nice to have
Rivan lost $1.45B a quarter. That $7 Billion wouldn't last long.
@@almac9203 they are gross profitably this year they don’t NEED it to last that long
The past is not a reflection of the future.... For example the R1 models have just been revised to drastically cut their production costs.... And 7 billion is what they have on hand right now of course they will continue to accrue revenue through sales...
But if you think they're going bankrupt soon feel free to short them.... I'm sure the short sellers are feeling terrific since the Volkswagen deal went through
@@almac9203considering that money came from its Saudi overlords, I wouldn’t be too concerned with going BK lol
Yeah and there will never be another Blackberry, Nokia or IBM
It's become a tough place to compete. 5B is pretty small potatoes when the Chinese govt has thrown 300B + at it and controls much of the natural resources in China and various parts of the African continent.
Rivian's tech is nearly as good as Tesla. Their have a mass production problem that (hopefully) VW can help alleviate.
Is Rivan tech as good as Lucid? My understanding is Lucid has cutting edge EV technology.
@@almac9203 It is not about which tech is better. It is the cost of mass production of the tech. Lucid can built a cutting edge EV that cost so much that only a few people can by it. This true for Rivian right now. If They can't build a car that they can make money on then it don't really matter.
Luxury brands tend to produce less, but tend to have higher profitability.... And long-term profitability is next to impossible to determine for a startup, except for true believers and YT experts... Who are proven to be clairvoyant or fools in hindsight.
Smaller, cheaper electric cars. Legacy auto makers made billions with the appetite of their customers to buy overpriced SUVs. I welcome the chinese scare so these companies wake up to competition.
In the 1970s and the 1980s, the UK consolidated its car manufacturing to such an extent, it no longer exists. Car manufacturing has been a dead end since the mid-1970s :-)
it keeps evolving. Japanese manufactures have been prosper for decades. Then it was Korea. Now it may be turn for China.
I miss their lovely reliability
Rivian is a Concord Effect, you lose money and you still go with production.
I hope joint venture with VW will help both of them.
I am not losing anything, the value of my invention is increasing every second and no one can stop it, humanity will be thankful to me for my invention.
Too little too late.. legacy car manufacturers are too focused in staying the same.
So focused and light years ahead of anybody but can't survive....... somewhere that logic doesn't make sense.
Not sure if Tesla is that far ahead in the aoftware game. Mercedes got better self driving software and the current Tesla iterations do seem to still include a good amount of bugs.
If you go with the software I would draw comparisons to the chinese manufacturers.
$5 Billion to take on Tesla? Elon’s pay package was like $45 Billion.
VW have been playing catchup for years, how is buying a non profitable EV maker going to make any difference 😂?
Legacy automakers aren't able to create EVs because it is a completely different engineering mindset. Rivian's electric motors, battery pack design and software is on par with Tesla. The Rivian trucks are incredible, but they are too damn expensive. The pandemic had a devastating financial impact on the company and now they don't have the $$$ to scale up manufacturing to production costs. Remember, it took Tesla 11 years to reach profitability. I hope this works because the ONLY way we will see widespread EV adoption is if there is real competition with Tesla. Right now, Tesla is the only legitimate EV on the market in the USA. That's a terrible thing, not a good thing. I really wish Ford would do the same thing with Lucid.
@@ChiefsFanInSCfords too busy cutting down shifts at electric plants due to lack of sales lol.
Tesla has never made a profit, it's literally just been hype that made it so overvalued, every other car company could easily beat it
No one can compete against high government subsidies. Its a government that tesla is competing , not byd
Tesla is one of the few BEV car companies with profit. Check the document "Q4 and FY 2023 Update". Also Yahoo finance provides this information.
@@williamzabiski7653 stop making me like china 😭
Tesla is not a car company
@@tjunglec yes it's just a money printer for Elon, whatever gets investors wet at the moment, or maybe he just makes an entirely new company that only does that one specific thing (poorly)
VW eclipsing Tesla within a decade... Brilliant right? Right?
Porsche Taycan beats Tesla
Tesla beats Porsche and parents company VW, where it counts.... Market cap....
@@nc3826 In EU Tesla counts as chinese import. We do not need chinese imports
@@KozmikGizmo I'm glad you prefer dieselgate over Chinese Imports.... But all the worthwhile EV IP is coming from China, or America.....
Close the door after the last EU car is built
Fantastic insights
I live in the US and drive but I hope that Tesla (or somebody else) solves self-driving. No need to own a car then. I look forward to giving up on car ownership and I suspect most people will too. I expect the total number of cars on the road to shrink once self-driving is a thing.
No problem, Elon promised again it is just around the corner... If you believe that I have a bridge I need to sell you ;)
Are you sure you’re not European? 😂
Zero oil use by 2030. 0 poor people. We are aiming for zero health damage from electric vehicle raw materials. Since this is not possible, we have extended it to 2050.
Too little too late and idiotic sacking & ignoring Herbert Diess. Tesla is 20yrs ahead. China battery & EV policy is 24yrs old. They invested $250B USD mastering material supply and refining chains and the battery & manufacturing tech.
The EU is asleep at the wheel on resource & material supply chains. They just ain’t gonna compete without $250B+ investment over 15yrs in EV manufacturing instead of playing debt merry go rounds via tax havens.
This is where your ard/zdf tax is going to dear German people. It simply going to zoom calls between two NPCs.
VW have been playing catchup for years, how is buying a non profitable EV maker going to make any difference 😂?
Tesla is not winning on the cars, it’s the gigafactory that is making the cars effectively. Where do you plan to learn that?
Id buy a vw over Tesla any day
The guest seems to be stressing standardized software as a means of saving money for the manufacturer as opposed to providing value for the customer. This is called "enshitification" and is one reason we can't have nice things.
Why do you think a 55" lcd TV is now 400$ and it was 4000$ 15 years ago? Wouldn't manufacturers just keep selling it for 4000$ if they could go away with it? Why can't they?
Yes companies are here to make money. But they are generally making money by providing value to customers.
@@lukazupie7220 The price decline in large screen LCD TV's is largely the result of a these (list not exhaustive) factors:
(1) Basic research in electro-luminescence to create improved backlights;
(2) Improved fabrication, particularly in ITO printing o circuit traces in the panel;
(3) Improved manufacturing of the polarizing filters in such displays;
(4) A rapidly growing market, compared to tings like cars that most people who want one already have
(5) Lack of viable alternatives -- projection TV and LED-based ones exist in niches still. Projection TVs in particular require decent quality optics.
(6) Room for innovation in things such as surface coatings.
(7) More diverse manufacturing landscape. There were far more companies either already making televisions or computer monitors than there were automakers large enough to even contemplate pivoting to electrics. TL;DR: "competition"
Note that the word "software" did not occur above.
VW Cariad users might disagree
@disorganizedorg Those are some really good points, but I would add using standardized software, would be short term gain at best. In a competitive market a company has to make bold moves, that provides value for the customer. To be a leading company, it has to lead the market in areas where others can't.
Tesla hasn't refreshed its models, because it was so far ahead, it didn't have to. It used its lead to build its profits margin and CapX. Tesla isn't holding back on expansion, it is refining its expansion moves. The next refresh will disrupt the industry, again. For example they Cybertruck may look strange, but it based on some really advanced tech: 48v architecture, steer by wire, 800v and etc, these are bold moves. By the time other automakers realize how important they are, it will be too late to catch them. Many question Tesla's "FSD", but this is important to many drivers, who are not the most comfortable driving.
I don't think partnerships with other competitors is the way to go.... because it limits the speed a brand can develop. In a fast developing sector why would company make itself less nimble by teaming up?? It makes more sense to buy or make a startup, develop new tech and products. Once that tech and products are mature, bring to the parent company.
Hybrids cost more to make and maintain. It may seem like a good transition point, but the transition to EV will be rapid, this lull is temporary, due to higher inflation and interest rates. EVs where very expensive and now that they are on par with ICE, it is too late for hybrids to really be truly competive. This is not to say there isn't a market for hybrids, but EVs will rule in the end.
What many legacy Automakers aren't realizing is that Chinese Brands are spreading World Wide. This means that most legacy brands will struggle to export leading to higher costs in the domestic markets. Exports, increase the economies of scale and this is the key to reducing costs. Tariffs will only slow the Chinese brands market penetration, not stop it. Eventually, consumer demand and General Economics will overwhelm the political will to maintain high tariffs.
@@tonespeaks what will happen is the Chinese brands will get made inside tariff umbrellas and its game over if the legacy manufacturers haven’t adjusted.
The US dealt with challengers in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. They adapted and survived despite how bleak it looked at times. This is just the first time Europe and Japan had to face a newcomer.
Nobody is buying any new auto especially ev's as there's 3 year old new on lots still as the prices, taxes and insurance are too high!
Lies. Tesla and Chinese ev's doing great and very affordable
Good luck with your bus pass
Teslas are amazing,,,,, except when it comes to resale value,,,,
Did i hear it right, VW? I thought, but for Germany and China, noone knows what VW is!!
Volks For the People
What happened to the meaning of the word Volk in Germany
What do you mean?
VW has been buying into companies about to go bunkrupt. rivian satifies that criteria.
VW is hedging its bets which have been placed on a buying into a few chinese car companies about to go bunkrupt. Rivian is a smsll side bet fir VW as for instance EU may make it hard for VW to bring in Chinese cars into the EU.
After the protectionist IRA, the EU might make it hard for VW to bring US cars into the EU.
We are looking at even more expensive car.
market leader against Tesla by the end of the decade? LMAO. Impossible.
Yay, Rivian gets more money to burn.
Why no one make like tesla rodaster sport car ? That Will sell well and i dont se tesla rodaster on roads?eu
jeeeesus that is a death sentence
VW is paying Rivian for their software because they are incapable of doing it themselves. What VW really needs to do is ask themselves why they can't do it. What is important to know is that all the EV software defined car tech ultimately came from Tesla, either directly with Rivian and Lucid, etc.being staffed by ex Tesla employees or from Chinese makers directly copping the tech. I would argue that if VW can't address the core reason why they couldn't do it themselves, they are doomed to be a follower.
This is a major win for VW, as their tech is awful. Rivians tech is very Tesla like. VW can finally soar! ❤
This expert doesn't seem like one
Very american auto expert. Hybrida are a thing for slow americans, not for China, that happens to be the worlds biggest auto market
What is this AFS guy saying! Totally out of mind!
Has he seen the last investor day pitch of Rivian just a week back? If Rivian pulls it off with focus and agility (and Tesla does one blunder) then it will be the next Nvidia of EV space while Tesla will be like Intel! VW will be like Cisco and nobody even remembers it anymore 😆
What the world does not Know. BYD approach VW, BMW and Mercedes to offer their technology. You know the answer!!! German Arrogance
keep rivian out of VW!!!!! VW has shown what not to do. rather have it with amazon to be agile and nimble to respond.
Stahlwille tools are the BEST
This “expert” loves plug in hybrid which is a terrible stopgap for a car. Its flavour of the month now but 40-50 mile range on the EV side is useless in the US. ICE is way cheaper if you are going to use gas at all. Especially, if you are using gas daily.
Some of these experts sound like used car salesmen.
Not everything is about USA, VW mostly sells cars in Europe. I think 50mile range cars should definitely exist, even EVs, not just hybrids.
I don't even do 50miles a year on my electric moped.😀 imagine paying for big battery, it would make
no sense. My pathetic battery can't even hold 10miles, but it makes sense for me.
Many people use their cars mostly to go to work that is few miles away.
@@lukazupie7220 when the expert is talking about the American market it is about the US. VW sells lots of cars in The US. I was at one of their dealerships two weeks ago.
Conceptually, plug in Hybrids are a desperate move by ICE manufacturers to stay relevant. Functionally it is an ICE with a gimmicky 50 mile EV range added. Have fun with that. It effectively is an ICE with a second gimmicky EV power source which just increases the parts and therefore the number of things that can break. It’s also much more expensive than a traditional ICE which brings us back to the original problem of EVs. More EV infrastructure is needed and they are too expensive for what they are.
The average driver in the U.S. drives 39.7 miles per day, according to the most recent Department of Transportation statistics.
Maybe it would be better to leave EVs it to the Chinese on which to lose the money and VW and others pivot into housing, and major environmental interventions that apply to flooding, etc., for which the market is ripe and totally unexploited.
Peter Rawlinson (Lucid Motors CEO and former Tesla chief engineer), May 10, 2024.:
Chinese automakers are still *"years and years behind" Tesla on EV technology.*
*"If you look at the advance in core EV technology, they're still years and years behind Tesla,"*
The former Tesla engineer said that Chinese EVs had progressed "immeasurably" in recent years, and were now superior to their western counterparts "in terms of fit and finish quality." However, Rawlinson thought *their engineering was still lacking.*
*"In terms of the elegance of their drive train technology, the batteries, the way things are integrated … it's not even close," he said.*
*"I was looking at a number of the units on display at the Geneva Motor Show and the engineering was very disappointing."*
Reduce the price and will buy your cars!
They are cheaper to produce then traditional, so price should reflect as well
As for now .. Expensive and Inconvenient charging time, no infrastructures
Where did u get that from? Cheaper to produce?
@@lukazupie7220 essentially is Electric motor controlled by computer. Amount of components 4 times less then in traditional car, and less complex to make
@@dirtyharry6297 But batteries more than make up for it, so EV is actually more expensive to make. Unless you want to buy it without battery.😀
@@lukazupie7220 nonsense
@@dirtyharry6297 can you provide any source for that?
Too late... VW already lost the EV race
plug-in hybrids ... lol
Tesla is the new Tucker.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
New Ford
they had a CEO leading them and friendly with the industry leader but they fired him for stating how far behind they were and now they want to spend more money to get some EV tech.
Tesla pure trash
Very knowledgeable guest ! Hadn't heard such a sensible evaluation of the market in a while 👏🏼👏🏼👌🏼
Plug in hybrids with 40-50 range in the US where the average commute is 40 minutes is farcical. He’s a corporate stooge.
Vw can't do software - project cariad.
Desperate.
Not the way to go inho. Hydrogen.
Hydrogen unfortunatelly doesn´t make any financial sense to go into... No infrastructure anywhere and crazy expenisve. Takes around 180 EUR to refuel a hydrogen car at current prices. Planes and cargo ships, sure but cars not gonna happen. At least if there isn´t some crazy new technology to make hydrogen production cost effective, which I can tell you is very unlikely as someone who works in a chem industry. Also the fact that not that many people would find it comfortable to sit on top of higly pressurized hydrogen tank.
@@PeterĎurica-m9c Thanks for the input.
I think providing the necessary infastructure for electric charge cars will be equally problematic not to mention how and where will all this extra electricity demand be produced, how to deal with waste batteries and indeed their production. All emerging technologies take time and money to develop as i'm sure you know, but it seems EVs are the preferred way forward.
Let's hope for cold fusion. 😉
@@ronniew3229 Hydrogen has no path to affordable personal transportation. EVs, in contrast, are already much cheaper to drive than the current fossil fuels. $10 to fill up, or $200? Game over.
Infrastructure needs to be built out for EVs, but China is showing us that the infrastructure is certainly doable. And the US has added capacity at a fast enough rate in the past and can do so in the future.
No hydrogen fuel, no hydrogen stations, no hydrogen cars
@@ronniew3229 i love how EV fear mongers use the same disproved talking points.... Good luck Googling them... Including a Coal Roller asking, where do you recycle your EV batteries recycled LOL... But they usually don't fantasize about cold fusion, ;)
Once everybody has made a good faith effort educating themselves... Then a reasonable discussion can take place.... But it's a waste of time until everyone is open and honest and well informed....
Until then,,,,, Thanks for your disingenuous input. 🙃🙃
Wow amanzing that VW is less than 1/10th the market cap of Tesla. 5 billion will put a huge dent in 0.6% of teslas market cap :p
Haaa. Tesla ain’t 🍎
VW is a respectable Company when it comes faking dreamy emission results and now they are about to be the best EV company but there is a catch, they can not develop a software for it .Battery is another problem if those two problem get solved they can buy some Chinese Electric Motors to label them "Made In Germany". Then it only remains to put them together and find a market to sell those EV. The only remaining problem will be the price, they are going to be 50% more expensive than BYD EV.
VW is going down the drain and Rivian is useless. The Rivian SW is junk. Had the car for a week and ACC was dangerous , bouncing between lane lines.
Tesla stock to 1000 soon
I'm sorry but there was Apple fruit before Apple iphone.
I'm sorry but there was a Nikola Tesla before a Tesla EV. .
Tesla is the Morgan of the EV world. BYD is the challenge for the US and European markets.
nah, BYD is just the next Huawei...
The Morgan of the EV world? Tesla produces the best-selling in the world, EV and non-EV.
BYD is notorious for catching fire, there are low quality junk, made in China, so no.
@@JigilJigilTesla is also low quality junk. Similar quality
More like 5B to try to stay relevant!
Might have been a decent start if they were the ones innovating here, but fighting tooth and nail to stick with the old system for short-term gains isn't doing them any favors now.
The European loser VW gets together with the US loser Rivian, they have no chance to win.
they have a very good chance. Remember when Huawei was gonna beat the west in 5G, and then they just got banned? Same thing will happen with Chinese cars...
VW is the world's biggest automotive company by revenue (and second only to Toyota in terms of units sold). Hardly a "European loser"!
Europe is the only place where they pretend a continent is a country.... Except Australia of course where a continent is a country lol....
VW is a German company,..... And don't say some of its production facilities are outside of Germany, and in the rest of Europe... Some of its production is in China and the US, it doesn't make it a Chinese or a US company...
Another wrong decision made by VW. Forget about EV. Use that money for producing hydrogen engine or hybrid like Toyota has been doing.
Tesla a car company? I think you didn't get Elon.
True, it's Elon's piggy bank.
😂😂😂
I will be shocked if VW survive the next decade.
Many things probably shock you 😂
WHY Not⁉️Give
5- Billion .
to B.Y.D 🇨🇳
And all EU they
Will drive for free
For 5 billion years
Guaranteed 💌💌
Old fashion thinking. Hybrids focus, and you are dead.....
It's all wasted unless they switch 100% of their production to hybrids.
Im just laughing at VW, nuf said
Volkswagen brand is tainted. Dieselgate
ancient news
@@nc3826 cool story
for historians