Apparently, Mark Allen Shepard who played Morn tried to convince the producers to let Morn have the final spoken lines in the series. But it was ultimately given to Quark who said after his confrontation with Kira: "The more things change, the more they stay the same." which was the exact same words Quark said after a similar confrontation with Kira in the pilot episode "Emissary".
Damar was chosen as the first recurring character to die, as Casey Biggs had played William Travis in the 1988 IMAX film Alamo: The Price of Freedom, and Travis was the first to die at the Battle of the Alamo. In the original draft of the script, Damar went down with all guns blazing, but without any lines. Distraught at the thought of a death without words, Casey Biggs asked director Allan Kroeker for permission to improvise, hence his final word, "Keep...". When asked at conventions, Biggs admits he had no idea of how he would have finished the statement.
They really should've resolved the thing with the Prophets at the beginning of the season and had Sisko and the Bajorans deal with the revelation that their Kai had sided with Dukat and the Pagh Wraiths while also dealing with the Dominion. And then they tie it all up at the end of the series.
Fun fact that someone will also probably say: When they filmed the scene where Dukat shrugs off punched to show he’s invisible, Avery Brooks accidentally punched Marc Alaimo. You can imagine that hurt.
Might have been addressed in the episode where Jadzia dies, but it apparently has come out since this episode first aired that Rick Berman only gave Terry Ferrell two choices: stay or leave completely. No middle ground. Something Ira Steven Behr was apparently unaware of, and has voiced regret about ever since.
It was worse than that, he told Farrell she wouldn't get a raise like the rest of the cast if she stayed, as she: "Is lucky to be working here instead of K-Mart."
Funny how Garak is so disturbed by the prospect of Odo linking with the FC that he fumbles his weapon taking it out of the holster, an action he must have done countless times in his life. (I know they could have chosen to use a different take, but they didn't.)
DS9 Series Finale's Part 2 starts at 3:32. Everything before that happens during end of Part 1. Neither Damar nor Weyoun appear in the final episode. Part 2 starts abruptly with Sisko telling Kira - "We are glad to see you in one piece commander' and then Odo says -"Very Glad"
I love your ending idea for bajor, it being an inversion of the existential crisis that Cardassia faced. I don't like Sisko being away for so long. I would have loved if in the closing shot we see Jake in dispair, then a vague hint just off camera that he returned. Some glimmer of light and Jake says "Dad?" Then cut to the original final shot
Sisko's fist punched out a pantheon. It was only right that it had to ascend to a new plane of existence where it would learn how to not punch holes in reality. Last thing they needed would be for Sisko to punch Q next time he showed up and actually succeed at knocking him out!
Just my headcanon, but I think the Pah-wraiths want to convert space to be more hospitable for their kind. Dukat's description of a universe set in flames reminds me of the Badlands, an area of space relatively close that is, from a certain point view, on fire. Of course, if the whole universe becomes the Badlands, life as we know it would be nearly impossible. Still, makes for a possible origin point for why the wormhole was made: a safe space for the Prophets/Pah-wraiths, where they can live without killing the rest of the petri dish.
I remember watching the finale and going "this is a decent end to the series"... And then I remembered "shit, they haven't wrapped the Pa Wraiths up yet!" And then the rest of the episode wrapped up and it was rather disappointing...
Especially since for most of the episode Winn and Dukat are just climbing through the fire caves, and then right after they ignite the caves it cuts back to the war stuff and doesn't cut back until the confrontation with Sisko. Which means we're meant to believe that the fleet assembling at Cardassia, the ceasefire, the treaty negotiations with the Dominion (which are even implied to be when Insurrection takes place, as Picard mentions Dominion negotiations at the beginning), AND the going-away party at Vic's ALL take place concurrently with Dukat and Winn in the caves? It becomes very clear that they realized they didn't have enough material to properly extend that storyline to the end and were just stretching it thin lol
The thing that really bothered me about this is that after all of that, there was *nothing* about Bajor joining the Federation. That's been a thing since the beginning. The whole reason Sisko and Starfleet were there in the first place. And they couldn't even spend 30 seconds resolving that. Just a couple lines would have been better than nothing. "Since the Dominion threat is gone, Bajor has no reason not to join." "Oh, yeah. They already put in a petition to join. The Federation council said yes. The ceremony is in a few weeks." "Fucking sweet!"
If you watch in syndication, the scene with Garak and Bashir is edited out. I think, If I had to cut a scene, I would've cut the scene on Cardassia with Martok, Ross and Sisko instead. Though that's a shorter scene, I think. Sisko and Dukat parallel each other in the series. Which is why their showdown makes sense. The results...yeah, the writers got high on the magic religion stuff, they did that when they made Sisko part prophet. Once they did that, it was too much. The strange thing is the Wraiths communicate more directly with corporeal beings but seem to hate them...not as much as they hate the Prophets. I still think that Sisko caused all this by entering the wormhole in Emissary. The wraith/prophet split, the orbs...all caused by an intrusion by a corporeal.
Sisko definitely didn't create the Pah-wraiths in any way since the book of Kosst Amojan is clearly much older than that. Your version might have made for a significantly better story but they would have had to have decided on it by the middle of the series or so.
@@noblehelium3794 The Prophets exist outside of linear time, so Sisko was the first corporeal being they meet, but the fallout of that spreads in the past.
Allegedly, early in DS9's casting phase, they'd considered Samuel L. Jackson for Sisko. To think, there could be a timeline where he got to be both a Jedi Force Ghost and a Starfleet Space Ghost. But no. We'll have to live in this lesser timeline where he's inevitably going to voice E-123 Omega in a Sonic The Hedgehog sequel. (Not that I'd have a problem with that. I'm gonna see Sonic 3 tomorrow.)
Another actor who I discovered auditioned to play Sisko was Peter Capaldi, who's best known for playing the Twelfth Doctor in Doctor Who. While DS9 creators Rick Berman and Michael Piller had always planned for a colored man to take on the role, they wanted to keep their options open.
@@marshallhuffer4713 Much as I love Twelve, Capaldi at age 35 just wouldn't have brought the same gravitas as the other actors considered at the time. His eyebrows, sure. But the rest of him needed a bit more time to grow and age into that gruff but gold-hearted soul we in 2024 all know and love. (The Trek wiki also mentions them considering Richard Dean Anderson fresh off MacGyver. Imagine *that* timeline).
@@Erinaceus87 James Avery was also considered but he was busy with Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. He would later appear in the Enterprise episodes "Affliction" and "Divergence" where he played the Klingon K'Vagh.
Never heard that Samuel L Jackson was considered, but I know that they thought about James Earl Jones. I don't think they aproached him, considering his film and theater career, and they would have needed to rework the character some because Jones was 62 when the show started, but it's a fun what-if.
The way sisko didnt give jake a vision for closure is beyond me!! The closeness of the pair reminds me of myself and dad and that was a major reason why i love the show. So to just forget jake like that was cold.......moreso as no message was given him via cassidy!! But a part from that, the finale wzs great!
@trazyntheinfinite9895 watch "the visitor", the loss of his dad messed him up, ya think his dad just leaving, with no word, wouldn't do the same to Jake, if not worse?
The resolution with Dukat should've been that once he has Sisko on his knees, Kira, then Worf, then the rest of the crew enter the cave and all work to defeat Dukat. Then, once it's proven that Dukat is unable to defeat the entire DS9 crew, the Pah-Wraiths abandon him as unworthy and return to their imprisonment. At the end, while Sisko used the last seven years inspiring his crew and forming lifelong friendships with them through genuine leadership, Dukat's need for worship and domination has left him a broken man, alone once again.
Odo's ending is the one I find the most satisfying. He doesn't want to leave DS9, or the people he knows and loves, but he'll do so for the hope of creating a better future where he doesn't have to worry about his people destroying those loved ones. I agree that Winn and Dukat and Sisko's ending was too damn weak too. I wanted Kira to finally, *finally* get the last word on that fascist asshole!
Personally I dont mind the Pah Wraiths What I do mind is that its Dukat whos involved in this plot. The Pah Wraith plot just seems tailor made for Wyn. She felt abandoned by the prophets, turned away at every chance and the Pah Wraiths offer her everything she wanted, attention and validation from Gods and be the Emissary But nah fuck that, give Dukat demon eyes and force powers instead. Hes more popular!
@@trazyntheinfinite9895 A traitor inside the church is worse than a usurper from the outside. Wynn also wasn't "middle management". She was damn near the flippin' POPE of Bajor.
I like the ethereal powerful beings of Star Trek like the Q and the Prophets, but this final part of the Pah Wraith narrative got a bit too high fantasy and magical. A spellbook that needs blood to be read which can also magically blind people, incantations, ritual sacrifice and then the bad guys being mystically sealed in Mount Doom. It just kinda comes out of nowhere too, as I don't feel these very overt supernatural elements were previously established besides the vague "non-corporeal" and "non-linear" nature of the Prophets and Pah Wraiths
The climax of the Prophets vs Pah-Wraiths plot should have been the wormhole coming back. If those Benny Russell visions were a fight for Sisko’s soul then he has already fulfilled his destiny. The unnecessary Dukat supervillain side quests only distracted from the more interesting war arc. The guy’s evil. Really evil. We get it.
I always found the bloodwine scene with drinking over the bodies of the Cardassians to be a bit off. If it was a toast to fallen allies then sure but to be treating them like defeated enemies after they switched sides and helped you feels wrong for most Klingons to do never mind Martok. I wonder if it was actually left over from an earlier draft where the Cardassians didn't change sides.
I think the better comparison for Cardassia is less Post WW1 Germany and Expressionism, is Post WW2 Japan where they invent anime schoolgirls and Godzilla.
That Sisko didn't have final words with Jake has always bugged me. The whole series, after the prologue-battle, starts with Sisko and his son. Yes, the show ends with Jake, but the writers should've had Sisco speaking with both Cassidy and Jake.
I was a bit of a bloodthirsty brat when I was young (too much Warhammer 40k on an impressionable child's mind, it took a city being nuked just to get me out of bed in the morning) so when i watched the finale on first broadcast I remember hating the ending - what's all this curing disease and reconciliation nonsense? I wanted more-more-more ships blowing up! Yes, Cardassia was being subjected to an orbital bombardment, but that all happened off-screen, it wasn't visceral enough! As an aside, i've always liked the fan-theory that the Breen were the survivors of the species that Captain Archer abandoned to a plague in ST Enterprise - it explains why they don't just cut and run and abandon the Dominion to their defeat, they're sticking it out because they've got a score to settle with mankind and every dead Fed is a little to balance the scales of a historic grudge.
It also explains the audacity of the Breen attack on Earth. Every Breen surely knew that it was a suicide mission, that Starfleet had heavily fortified Earth, but it was worth it. The material damage was minimal, and the Breen likely lost dozens of ships in the attack, but the psychological impact was substantial. Much like the Doolittle Raid, come think of it.
13:30 “we have seen Cisco the warrior. Why must his final task be one of violence?” Because the show is written by atheists and produced by a studio that doesn't respect the franchise Chuck.
I really wouldn't of had a problem with Sisko not coming back. He is a soldier how many dangerous missions has he been on in which he might not of came back, dozens in a way it strengthens the character as it shows a mans true love for his wife and child that he would sacrifice himself to ensure they can go on. So really got to go against Avery Brooks on that choice it isn't a black thing at all that happens cause the man doesn't love his wife and child and abandons them out of his own selfishness this is why I hate when politics and ideology gets involved in shows and movies the true sense of things get overlooked because of it it really narrows ones view of subjects.
Having the Pah Wraiths as the final showdown was such a bad idea, and aside from a few episodes, I think DS9 really got downhill after the first six episodes of season 6, sure they still had high points like "In the pale Moonlight" and "The Siege of AR-558" but all in all it wasn't quite as good as it was before. I would also want to know, did I just not hear the final score, I still got an 8 here in my list. I also never got the score for "Tears of the prophet"
It's a rare rating of Chuck's that I really disagree with, even when I disagree mostly I can see where he's coming from, and this is is the real outlier where I just don't see how he came to this score. Feels to me it gets an 8 by virtue of being the end of DS9, and given how he talks about an 8 in DS9 is better than an 8 on other Trek shows like Voyager I just don't agree with it given I can think of some Voyager eps he's given an 8 I like more than this one. There's so much wrong with this that I'm not sure I'd give it above a 5, and that's me being positive about DS9 as the average was usually pretty dang watchable on this show. Damar's whole plot gets dealt with such swiftness that I get whiplash, the genocide of Cardassia gets wrapped up super quickly too, as if we've got no time to really explore the plot... and then they waste several minutes on a navel gazing indulgent music montage. Then there's the fire caves, holy fuck, nothing is good about the fire caves. Calling this an 8? Nah, no way, no how.
I have to disagree with this assessment, even knowing it's a few years old. I never agreed that Dukat should've died during Waltz. In fact, in the years rewatching this series, I noticed something I hadn't considered before. His team up with Wynn shows an interesting parallel between them and a contrast to Sisko. Dukat and Wynn both wanted to be beloved by Bajor, for different reasons: Dukat for being the benevolent ruler; Wynn for being the religious representative of the planet. But neither of them ever received the recognition that Sisko did. Sisko, a human from earth who never stepped foot on Bajor before the series began and didn't even want the job of emissary. He got to be chosen for no reason that they could understand, while they are snubbed. It makes me think about how things could've turned out differently, or if Wynn and Dukat were always doomed due to their personal desires. So I love that the conflict ends with the 2 false prophets facing the real one. There's a lot more I could say about the supposed flaws of the finale, but that's enough. The only thing to add is that I do wish Sisko did have a more creative solution to stopping Dukat than just shoving him; something only he could do. Not embracing the religious stuff too much tho; that just feels like a betrayal of his character in what he says he wants from episodes past.
Dukat's story arc ended with Waltz. He was a broken madman who should have left a stain of brutality on Sisko because Sisko had to kill him horribly to have any chance of rescue. Or have both Kira and Sisko facing off against Dukat and Wynn, with Kira realizing she must work AGAINST her reputation as a revolutionary to prevent Bajor from becoming a warmonger.
@@hariman7727 "Dukat's story arc ended with Waltz." Factually false. He appears in multiple episodes after Waltz, pursuing a new goal that loops the Pah-Wraith into the plot, giving the Prophets more relevance in the overall conclusion. So his story arc did not end with Waltz; it entered a new phase. What you mean to say is, it *should* have ended in Waltz - an opinion you share with sfdebris. I disagree. It would be incredibly anti-climactic and disappointing if Dukat just died in Waltz and that's it. The ending to that episode, with Ben saying "It's either him, or me" would be lost if you had your way, and uh, no f&%king thanks. As for Kira, she helped lead the revolution on Cardassia to help turn the tide of the war. I feel like that's already a pretty awesome legacy for her.
@@captainautobots That "It's him or me." moment? It undercuts that Sisko has faced true evil. THAT is why Dukat should have died. He was so evil that a supposedly good Federation Captain had to beat him to death in the least civilized was possible. What happens after that? An extended setup of Dukat and Kai Wynn flopping around with each other to set up the final confrontation, which ends with Sisko punching again. On top of that, it undermines Kai Winn as the selfish space Karen, giving her a last minute redemption of her not being douchey enough for the Pah-Wraiths. EDIT: Also, reportedly, Ira Behr wanted to make a star trek captain being god literal, because fans had been holding up star trek captains as gods. That looks like the same kind of anti audience spite we're seeing in droves today.
@@hariman7727 how does it undercut anything? He's showing bravery against an evil lunatic. Is he supposed to be scared or sad? I've already explained the significance of Wynn and Dukat's team up, so I'll leave it at that. Also, "good federation captain"? You remember Sisko committed war crimes, right? He also tricked the Romulans into joining the war effort and didn't immediately transfer when Bajorans started seeing him as a religious figure. That's not what Picard would've done. He doesn't need to beat Dukat to death (out of self defense) to be compromised. He was no model federation officer. Still my favourite captain tho. I don't really know what you're getting at with the whole Wynn thing. Redemption or no, she died burning to death, and no one's mourning her. I doubt she joined the prophets, but there's no indication either way. The only thing you're correct about is the final showdown between Sisko and Dukat should've been handled better, which I already mentioned.
@@captainautobots You're focusing on the meta angle of Dukat being an eternal foil to Sisko, and ignoring how Kai Winn is the opposite of Sisko. Dukat had NO spiritual connection to Bajor until season 7. Sisko is a member of the largely atheist Federation who not only is an alien god's prophet, but also comes to accept and embrace that role. Kai Winn is what would happen if the Pope ended up embracing Satan/rejecting God. (Which hits on the nose nowadays, but I digress.) So she's the perfect opposition to Sisko.
Apparently, Mark Allen Shepard who played Morn tried to convince the producers to let Morn have the final spoken lines in the series. But it was ultimately given to Quark who said after his confrontation with Kira: "The more things change, the more they stay the same." which was the exact same words Quark said after a similar confrontation with Kira in the pilot episode "Emissary".
Damar was chosen as the first recurring character to die, as Casey Biggs had played William Travis in the 1988 IMAX film Alamo: The Price of Freedom, and Travis was the first to die at the Battle of the Alamo. In the original draft of the script, Damar went down with all guns blazing, but without any lines. Distraught at the thought of a death without words, Casey Biggs asked director Allan Kroeker for permission to improvise, hence his final word, "Keep...". When asked at conventions, Biggs admits he had no idea of how he would have finished the statement.
They really should've resolved the thing with the Prophets at the beginning of the season and had Sisko and the Bajorans deal with the revelation that their Kai had sided with Dukat and the Pagh Wraiths while also dealing with the Dominion. And then they tie it all up at the end of the series.
Dukat should have died on the shuttle with Sisko, and Kai Wynn should have been the only rep of the Pah Wraiths.
Fun fact that someone will also probably say: When they filmed the scene where Dukat shrugs off punched to show he’s invisible, Avery Brooks accidentally punched Marc Alaimo. You can imagine that hurt.
Might have been addressed in the episode where Jadzia dies, but it apparently has come out since this episode first aired that Rick Berman only gave Terry Ferrell two choices: stay or leave completely. No middle ground. Something Ira Steven Behr was apparently unaware of, and has voiced regret about ever since.
Rick Berman sure knew how to make friends, didn’t he?
It was worse than that, he told Farrell she wouldn't get a raise like the rest of the cast if she stayed, as she: "Is lucky to be working here instead of K-Mart."
Funny how Garak is so disturbed by the prospect of Odo linking with the FC that he fumbles his weapon taking it out of the holster, an action he must have done countless times in his life. (I know they could have chosen to use a different take, but they didn't.)
DS9 Series Finale's Part 2 starts at 3:32. Everything before that happens during end of Part 1. Neither Damar nor Weyoun appear in the final episode. Part 2 starts abruptly with Sisko telling Kira - "We are glad to see you in one piece commander' and then Odo says -"Very Glad"
Having the deaths occur in the first episode so that those actors don't appear in the second makes a lot of practical sense.
I love your ending idea for bajor, it being an inversion of the existential crisis that Cardassia faced.
I don't like Sisko being away for so long. I would have loved if in the closing shot we see Jake in dispair, then a vague hint just off camera that he returned. Some glimmer of light and Jake says "Dad?" Then cut to the original final shot
Sisko's fist punched out a pantheon. It was only right that it had to ascend to a new plane of existence where it would learn how to not punch holes in reality. Last thing they needed would be for Sisko to punch Q next time he showed up and actually succeed at knocking him out!
Just my headcanon, but I think the Pah-wraiths want to convert space to be more hospitable for their kind. Dukat's description of a universe set in flames reminds me of the Badlands, an area of space relatively close that is, from a certain point view, on fire. Of course, if the whole universe becomes the Badlands, life as we know it would be nearly impossible. Still, makes for a possible origin point for why the wormhole was made: a safe space for the Prophets/Pah-wraiths, where they can live without killing the rest of the petri dish.
I love ds9 but this ending always seemed a bit flat. I don't know. Never was fully satisfied.
I remember watching the finale and going "this is a decent end to the series"... And then I remembered "shit, they haven't wrapped the Pa Wraiths up yet!" And then the rest of the episode wrapped up and it was rather disappointing...
God the Pah-wraiths shit was so fucking stupid.
DS9 has half of a good finale, the rushed prophets stuff really drags the rest down.
The final confrontation with Dukat felt like a TOS scene.
If they had just ended at Vic's it would have been almost perfect.
Every prophet related plot element and episode can be removed and nothing of value is lost.
All that prophecy stuff and the answer was to just football tackle Dukat off a ledge. Which seems like something anyone could do.
Especially since for most of the episode Winn and Dukat are just climbing through the fire caves, and then right after they ignite the caves it cuts back to the war stuff and doesn't cut back until the confrontation with Sisko.
Which means we're meant to believe that the fleet assembling at Cardassia, the ceasefire, the treaty negotiations with the Dominion (which are even implied to be when Insurrection takes place, as Picard mentions Dominion negotiations at the beginning), AND the going-away party at Vic's ALL take place concurrently with Dukat and Winn in the caves?
It becomes very clear that they realized they didn't have enough material to properly extend that storyline to the end and were just stretching it thin lol
The thing that really bothered me about this is that after all of that, there was *nothing* about Bajor joining the Federation. That's been a thing since the beginning. The whole reason Sisko and Starfleet were there in the first place. And they couldn't even spend 30 seconds resolving that. Just a couple lines would have been better than nothing. "Since the Dominion threat is gone, Bajor has no reason not to join." "Oh, yeah. They already put in a petition to join. The Federation council said yes. The ceremony is in a few weeks." "Fucking sweet!"
9:18 it's kind of like the four Chaos gods, they don't really think that far ahead.
If you watch in syndication, the scene with Garak and Bashir is edited out. I think, If I had to cut a scene, I would've cut the scene on Cardassia with Martok, Ross and Sisko instead. Though that's a shorter scene, I think.
Sisko and Dukat parallel each other in the series. Which is why their showdown makes sense. The results...yeah, the writers got high on the magic religion stuff, they did that when they made Sisko part prophet. Once they did that, it was too much.
The strange thing is the Wraiths communicate more directly with corporeal beings but seem to hate them...not as much as they hate the Prophets. I still think that Sisko caused all this by entering the wormhole in Emissary. The wraith/prophet split, the orbs...all caused by an intrusion by a corporeal.
Sisko definitely didn't create the Pah-wraiths in any way since the book of Kosst Amojan is clearly much older than that. Your version might have made for a significantly better story but they would have had to have decided on it by the middle of the series or so.
@@noblehelium3794 The Prophets exist outside of linear time, so Sisko was the first corporeal being they meet, but the fallout of that spreads in the past.
A++++ for the Chalice from the Palace reference.
Allegedly, early in DS9's casting phase, they'd considered Samuel L. Jackson for Sisko.
To think, there could be a timeline where he got to be both a Jedi Force Ghost and a Starfleet Space Ghost.
But no. We'll have to live in this lesser timeline where he's inevitably going to voice E-123 Omega in a Sonic The Hedgehog sequel.
(Not that I'd have a problem with that. I'm gonna see Sonic 3 tomorrow.)
Another actor who I discovered auditioned to play Sisko was Peter Capaldi, who's best known for playing the Twelfth Doctor in Doctor Who. While DS9 creators Rick Berman and Michael Piller had always planned for a colored man to take on the role, they wanted to keep their options open.
@@marshallhuffer4713 Much as I love Twelve, Capaldi at age 35 just wouldn't have brought the same gravitas as the other actors considered at the time.
His eyebrows, sure. But the rest of him needed a bit more time to grow and age into that gruff but gold-hearted soul we in 2024 all know and love.
(The Trek wiki also mentions them considering Richard Dean Anderson fresh off MacGyver. Imagine *that* timeline).
@@Erinaceus87 James Avery was also considered but he was busy with Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. He would later appear in the Enterprise episodes "Affliction" and "Divergence" where he played the Klingon K'Vagh.
Jedi Fleet Space Ghost Coast to Coast.
Never heard that Samuel L Jackson was considered, but I know that they thought about James Earl Jones. I don't think they aproached him, considering his film and theater career, and they would have needed to rework the character some because Jones was 62 when the show started, but it's a fun what-if.
The way sisko didnt give jake a vision for closure is beyond me!! The closeness of the pair reminds me of myself and dad and that was a major reason why i love the show. So to just forget jake like that was cold.......moreso as no message was given him via cassidy!! But a part from that, the finale wzs great!
Jake needed no message from his dad.
@trazyntheinfinite9895 watch "the visitor", the loss of his dad messed him up, ya think his dad just leaving, with no word, wouldn't do the same to Jake, if not worse?
The resolution with Dukat should've been that once he has Sisko on his knees, Kira, then Worf, then the rest of the crew enter the cave and all work to defeat Dukat. Then, once it's proven that Dukat is unable to defeat the entire DS9 crew, the Pah-Wraiths abandon him as unworthy and return to their imprisonment. At the end, while Sisko used the last seven years inspiring his crew and forming lifelong friendships with them through genuine leadership, Dukat's need for worship and domination has left him a broken man, alone once again.
At the very least bring Kira in on it, and have both her and Sisko empowered by his Prophet side.
Hmm, I like this resolution to Dukat's arc. I think it would've been more satisfying.
With thanks to SF Debris, I see requests for ST are still open and I know there’s a bunch of DS9 episodes left unreviewed, will be in touch.
Odo's ending is the one I find the most satisfying. He doesn't want to leave DS9, or the people he knows and loves, but he'll do so for the hope of creating a better future where he doesn't have to worry about his people destroying those loved ones. I agree that Winn and Dukat and Sisko's ending was too damn weak too. I wanted Kira to finally, *finally* get the last word on that fascist asshole!
"What do the pah-wraiths get out of this?" - pah-wraith, loafing on a burning pillow like a cat: "Warm. :3"
Where are the flying pah-wraths?
I was PROMISED flying pah-wraiths!
We have arrived. Thanks for the trip.
I just need to say that the auto subtitles said that the dominion (removed in case of auto mod) 800 million *Kardashians*.
Habsburg issues
Proof that the Dominion aren't all bad.
Personally I dont mind the Pah Wraiths
What I do mind is that its Dukat whos involved in this plot. The Pah Wraith plot just seems tailor made for Wyn. She felt abandoned by the prophets, turned away at every chance and the Pah Wraiths offer her everything she wanted, attention and validation from Gods and be the Emissary
But nah fuck that, give Dukat demon eyes and force powers instead. Hes more popular!
But he is the great reapist of bajor.
She is miffed middle management.
@@trazyntheinfinite9895 A traitor inside the church is worse than a usurper from the outside.
Wynn also wasn't "middle management". She was damn near the flippin' POPE of Bajor.
I guess Chuck read the comment about the tonal dissonance brought on by the "go to the lobby" clip and decided not to play the sound this time.
I like the ethereal powerful beings of Star Trek like the Q and the Prophets, but this final part of the Pah Wraith narrative got a bit too high fantasy and magical. A spellbook that needs blood to be read which can also magically blind people, incantations, ritual sacrifice and then the bad guys being mystically sealed in Mount Doom. It just kinda comes out of nowhere too, as I don't feel these very overt supernatural elements were previously established besides the vague "non-corporeal" and "non-linear" nature of the Prophets and Pah Wraiths
The beginning reminds me of the time when thieves got past Jerry’s deadbolt door because Kramer left the door wide open.
The climax of the Prophets vs Pah-Wraiths plot should have been the wormhole coming back. If those Benny Russell visions were a fight for Sisko’s soul then he has already fulfilled his destiny. The unnecessary Dukat supervillain side quests only distracted from the more interesting war arc. The guy’s evil. Really evil. We get it.
Why do the Pah wraiths get associated with fire so much. Seems like something below beings that exist outside of time.
One great show. :) Maybe somehow, we will have trek like this again... maybe.
I always found the bloodwine scene with drinking over the bodies of the Cardassians to be a bit off. If it was a toast to fallen allies then sure but to be treating them like defeated enemies after they switched sides and helped you feels wrong for most Klingons to do never mind Martok. I wonder if it was actually left over from an earlier draft where the Cardassians didn't change sides.
I get the impression they like fire.
I think the better comparison for Cardassia is less Post WW1 Germany and Expressionism, is Post WW2 Japan where they invent anime schoolgirls and Godzilla.
I hope they bring him back in the last episode of lower decks ...
That Sisko didn't have final words with Jake has always bugged me. The whole series, after the prologue-battle, starts with Sisko and his son. Yes, the show ends with Jake, but the writers should've had Sisco speaking with both Cassidy and Jake.
I was a bit of a bloodthirsty brat when I was young (too much Warhammer 40k on an impressionable child's mind, it took a city being nuked just to get me out of bed in the morning) so when i watched the finale on first broadcast I remember hating the ending - what's all this curing disease and reconciliation nonsense? I wanted more-more-more ships blowing up! Yes, Cardassia was being subjected to an orbital bombardment, but that all happened off-screen, it wasn't visceral enough!
As an aside, i've always liked the fan-theory that the Breen were the survivors of the species that Captain Archer abandoned to a plague in ST Enterprise - it explains why they don't just cut and run and abandon the Dominion to their defeat, they're sticking it out because they've got a score to settle with mankind and every dead Fed is a little to balance the scales of a historic grudge.
It also explains the audacity of the Breen attack on Earth. Every Breen surely knew that it was a suicide mission, that Starfleet had heavily fortified Earth, but it was worth it. The material damage was minimal, and the Breen likely lost dozens of ships in the attack, but the psychological impact was substantial. Much like the Doolittle Raid, come think of it.
13:30 “we have seen Cisco the warrior. Why must his final task be one of violence?”
Because the show is written by atheists and produced by a studio that doesn't respect the franchise Chuck.
I really wouldn't of had a problem with Sisko not coming back. He is a soldier how many dangerous missions has he been on in which he might not of came back, dozens in a way it strengthens the character as it shows a mans true love for his wife and child that he would sacrifice himself to ensure they can go on. So really got to go against Avery Brooks on that choice it isn't a black thing at all that happens cause the man doesn't love his wife and child and abandons them out of his own selfishness this is why I hate when politics and ideology gets involved in shows and movies the true sense of things get overlooked because of it it really narrows ones view of subjects.
Having the Pah Wraiths as the final showdown was such a bad idea, and aside from a few episodes, I think DS9 really got downhill after the first six episodes of season 6, sure they still had high points like "In the pale Moonlight" and "The Siege of AR-558" but all in all it wasn't quite as good as it was before. I would also want to know, did I just not hear the final score, I still got an 8 here in my list. I also never got the score for "Tears of the prophet"
The final score is mentioned in the following video, not sure why people are commenting on it here but whatever. It is indeed an 8.
Nothing wrong with banning gambling
Space Jesus is one badass!!!
12 seconds since posting lets GOO
It's a rare rating of Chuck's that I really disagree with, even when I disagree mostly I can see where he's coming from, and this is is the real outlier where I just don't see how he came to this score.
Feels to me it gets an 8 by virtue of being the end of DS9, and given how he talks about an 8 in DS9 is better than an 8 on other Trek shows like Voyager I just don't agree with it given I can think of some Voyager eps he's given an 8 I like more than this one.
There's so much wrong with this that I'm not sure I'd give it above a 5, and that's me being positive about DS9 as the average was usually pretty dang watchable on this show. Damar's whole plot gets dealt with such swiftness that I get whiplash, the genocide of Cardassia gets wrapped up super quickly too, as if we've got no time to really explore the plot... and then they waste several minutes on a navel gazing indulgent music montage. Then there's the fire caves, holy fuck, nothing is good about the fire caves.
Calling this an 8? Nah, no way, no how.
They ripped off B5's storyline, but they didn't know the ending.
There's this thing called parallel development. It's when two similar things are created or invented at the same time, coincidentally.
I have to disagree with this assessment, even knowing it's a few years old. I never agreed that Dukat should've died during Waltz. In fact, in the years rewatching this series, I noticed something I hadn't considered before.
His team up with Wynn shows an interesting parallel between them and a contrast to Sisko. Dukat and Wynn both wanted to be beloved by Bajor, for different reasons: Dukat for being the benevolent ruler; Wynn for being the religious representative of the planet. But neither of them ever received the recognition that Sisko did.
Sisko, a human from earth who never stepped foot on Bajor before the series began and didn't even want the job of emissary. He got to be chosen for no reason that they could understand, while they are snubbed. It makes me think about how things could've turned out differently, or if Wynn and Dukat were always doomed due to their personal desires.
So I love that the conflict ends with the 2 false prophets facing the real one. There's a lot more I could say about the supposed flaws of the finale, but that's enough. The only thing to add is that I do wish Sisko did have a more creative solution to stopping Dukat than just shoving him; something only he could do.
Not embracing the religious stuff too much tho; that just feels like a betrayal of his character in what he says he wants from episodes past.
Dukat's story arc ended with Waltz. He was a broken madman who should have left a stain of brutality on Sisko because Sisko had to kill him horribly to have any chance of rescue.
Or have both Kira and Sisko facing off against Dukat and Wynn, with Kira realizing she must work AGAINST her reputation as a revolutionary to prevent Bajor from becoming a warmonger.
@@hariman7727 "Dukat's story arc ended with Waltz."
Factually false. He appears in multiple episodes after Waltz, pursuing a new goal that loops the Pah-Wraith into the plot, giving the Prophets more relevance in the overall conclusion. So his story arc did not end with Waltz; it entered a new phase.
What you mean to say is, it *should* have ended in Waltz - an opinion you share with sfdebris. I disagree. It would be incredibly anti-climactic and disappointing if Dukat just died in Waltz and that's it. The ending to that episode, with Ben saying "It's either him, or me" would be lost if you had your way, and uh, no f&%king thanks.
As for Kira, she helped lead the revolution on Cardassia to help turn the tide of the war. I feel like that's already a pretty awesome legacy for her.
@@captainautobots That "It's him or me." moment? It undercuts that Sisko has faced true evil.
THAT is why Dukat should have died. He was so evil that a supposedly good Federation Captain had to beat him to death in the least civilized was possible.
What happens after that? An extended setup of Dukat and Kai Wynn flopping around with each other to set up the final confrontation, which ends with Sisko punching again.
On top of that, it undermines Kai Winn as the selfish space Karen, giving her a last minute redemption of her not being douchey enough for the Pah-Wraiths.
EDIT: Also, reportedly, Ira Behr wanted to make a star trek captain being god literal, because fans had been holding up star trek captains as gods. That looks like the same kind of anti audience spite we're seeing in droves today.
@@hariman7727 how does it undercut anything? He's showing bravery against an evil lunatic. Is he supposed to be scared or sad?
I've already explained the significance of Wynn and Dukat's team up, so I'll leave it at that.
Also, "good federation captain"? You remember Sisko committed war crimes, right? He also tricked the Romulans into joining the war effort and didn't immediately transfer when Bajorans started seeing him as a religious figure. That's not what Picard would've done. He doesn't need to beat Dukat to death (out of self defense) to be compromised. He was no model federation officer. Still my favourite captain tho.
I don't really know what you're getting at with the whole Wynn thing. Redemption or no, she died burning to death, and no one's mourning her. I doubt she joined the prophets, but there's no indication either way.
The only thing you're correct about is the final showdown between Sisko and Dukat should've been handled better, which I already mentioned.
@@captainautobots You're focusing on the meta angle of Dukat being an eternal foil to Sisko, and ignoring how Kai Winn is the opposite of Sisko.
Dukat had NO spiritual connection to Bajor until season 7.
Sisko is a member of the largely atheist Federation who not only is an alien god's prophet, but also comes to accept and embrace that role.
Kai Winn is what would happen if the Pope ended up embracing Satan/rejecting God. (Which hits on the nose nowadays, but I digress.) So she's the perfect opposition to Sisko.