Chinese Linear Rail Review
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- Опубликовано: 14 янв 2015
- An Op-Ed on the quality and functionality of linear rails sourced through Ebay, from China.
Although there are some fit and finish detractors, the functional pieces and areas look to be worth the money and capable of the
function I desire (spindle CNC).
The link below is to my ebay 'collection' that has all the parts I have used. I should have more videos out on the machine in the coming months.
Product Link: www.ebay.com/cln/sbird_seller/...
OK, been there done both styles, here's the quick and dirty. SBR's are great and cheap to get started. You WILL outgrow them, they simply have too much slop to be any use in the long run. But get them if your budget is low and you're just getting started. Great for a first version DIY CNC, but if you're into the money making stage, go straight to the HIWIN style.
TKC - I have pinned your comment to the top of the discussion. I completely agree. It has been two years now and although I am not unhappy with my choice or their cost/performance, I am looking for improvement. I have one more thing I'm going to try with the SBR's and will have a video of that soon. Thanks for your insights.
@TKC, I am not into rebuilding anything at my age, make it good right off the bat. So I took your lead and looked for the generic versions and voila found it. There are also genuine Hiwin but so far not in tailored kits as of this message. I would ask you for a 4' x 4' or so called "Half sheet" table what the min width for the rail would be feasable. There is such a thing as ridiculous in over build mode. And I am on somewhat af a budget. After all we are trying to do this for less than the cost of a turn key table right? I can buy a slightly used 4'x8' for less than $5000 CAD. But I would sooner build that here in place rather than ship it or truck it myself
HIWIN is better, since you said it...but this is best: www.alibaba.com/product-detail/High-Speed-Low-Noise-Linear-Guides_1807087165.html?spm=a2700.8443308.0.0.yfoaH0
You could get the more simple versions of these, without the end cap with the felt rail cleaner. These AREN'T CHEAP. I was quoted $1200 plus shipping, vs $450 including shipping for the SBR type...for the same lengths. (just over 30 feet of rail with 8 bearing blocks.) The link I posted hasn't priced me yet, so hoping they are cheaper. This style is much better that the type that the block wraps around the track. The speed rail block rides inside.
Hi there, glad you chimed in here. I decided right off to go with Hiwin, and there are many copies of them. Right down to the exact bolt spacings of course. Interchangeability is key.
I was looking around for a vendor to put the complete kit together , that's Hiwin HG and HW series plus Rm2010 /2510 ballscrews for a 1500mm x 1500mm table. And none of the so called CNC outfitters on Ebay and Aliexpress till recently would show me a nice close up of the Bearing Blocks that were packaged for the 800 including shipping price (USD). So I was withering away in a morass of indeciscion. Until I found a name that kept surfacing at CNC Zone. They are called BST Automation - Aliexpress and I am sending my quotation requirements there. Hopefully this will be the last I will have to send off. Nobody mentioned that this process of finding all your materials and fasteners would be a good fraction of the work :-P
BTW My drawings for all bearing mounts machining etc are configured for HGH and HGW (wide flange) bolt spacing, so I have no choice but to try to get the best in a Hiwin config. Preferably all parts will arrive with original Hiwin packaging where you will also see and confirm the one of three possible Preload factor ZA, Z0, or Z1.
It is not on the bearing block in laser etched ID #, only in a checked box on the packaging.
This I feel would be key to a better sale experience :-) That and nice straight rail and rod after the shipping process :P
Just a small note about your choice there. 1st they are definitely worth a look but, I have never heard of the maker or seen these in use anywhere, so where is the end user's first hand experience feedback going to come from to give you some peace of mind.
Second they collect chips and dust in the channel. Their proprietary wipers are going to be working overtime. I have need of a set of 2 blocks per side for the X axis gantry side plate supports, running the length of the bed - sitting in the upright attitude. Your suggestion will be filled with wood dust in a matter of seconds.
The Hiwin profile is a lot easier to keep clean. My entire package at BST is slated to be about 850 delivered BTW. Thats for the rail, 20 OR 25mm ball screws, HGH and HGW bearing blocks, BF and BK support lock nuts and couplers for NEMA34 Their packaging is supposed to be styrofoam and wood as well :-)
oh man you're a godsend, I was about to order these for a bed lift I'm building inside my campervan and I had the thought "what if these rattle around while I'm driving".
you've put my mind at ease, I thank you sir.
I just found these videos I really like the way you lay out your design constraints, I like that you had cost in mind
Thank you for pointing out the square slides option and the review on the slides.
Nice. thank god someone did a video on this. It's so hard to find reviews on some of this stuff.
I ordered a1200mm bearing rail set for my sliding table saw table project,thanks for this vid I can relax now!
Love your videos. Always educational.
Really pleased as I have just ordered the same kit from eBay!
Thanks for the video, I just got my set of slides and I would agree with your comments, very fair assessment
Great video, just what I was wanting. thanks
Thanks for the review, explained very well
@Sbirdranch Thank you very much for this review! It was very helpful!!
Better price - www.3dmaxprinter.com/shop/cnc/sbr12-200mm-linear-rail-guide-shaft-rod-with-2pcs-sbr12uu-bearing/
what was the site you referenced for the guy who had a better glide?
Thank you very much for the review Sir.
Thanks for your help with my buying a set like this
Thank you for the short, and on point, video. Much appreciated. I have a quick question. I am making a system where I will lift an empty bead to get it out of the way. Do you think it would be possible to put two rails in series, to increase the length, and have the wagon cross to the next rail? Not much precision in my project, so I guess that helps.
love this video, factual, evidence, proof, to the point, short.
Thanks for the video, could you let us know if the ball screws are straight?
Thanks. Quick question - Are these meant to be mounted on a flat (horizontal, parallel to the ground), or can they be mounted on a wall? I am looking for some rails to attach on a bookshelf and hang a TV off them, so that I can slide the TV aside and access the books.
Thanks for the hint. I checked that and found that these holes are actually inaccurate. So you have to calculate a little play and align each part individually so that it slides smoothly. Therefore do not use countersunk screws because they center when the screws are tightened.
Thanks for explaining the adjustments, mine are loose. Tempted to add another two grubscrews to spread te load.
does anyone have any recommendations for getting smooth and ultra quiet bearings for rails like these?
Do you think I could use these sliders behind the bulkhead on my van to create a slide out wall?
Awesome video thank you! I was wondering about the quality of the Chinese ones on Amazon & eBay. This video is exactly what I was looking for. I love the really long rails what are those 2000mm? Must have cost a good amount for all that hardware I can see why you would have been freaking out. That 1450 kit is $750 wow. Too rich for my blood, I'm trying to build 1000mm for about 1/3 of that. Any tips for shopping for equipment would be helpful. Please make more videos. :)
Do you have the link to the other video mentioned @ 0:34 ? Thanks.
Hi, nice video! Funny how I suddenly became interested in an 8 year old clip.
I want to use these rails for a sliding roof on my boat but I now see what I feared already: this will be very big and very heavy when I need a pair of rails of 1.8 meters.
So I checked for the smaller ones but these stop at 1 meter.
Do you know if it will work to use 2 pairs of rails, cut 20 cm and then align them? It's not ideal but I'm hoping that the ball bearings won't have an issue with the joint
i see kits that has 1605 ballscrew and 20mm linear rail. is that how they should be and spec like that. i mean if i have screw and linear same level then linear block and ballscrew housing will be same level and plate can be installed without shims or any other modification
nice review
I hope you are able to keep posting updates on this project as you go. I'd really like to see what you build. How's the straightness of the ball screws? I've seen quite a few complaints of screws from China arriving bent.
+1990notch I plan (hope, cross fingers) to make some more videos starting with the one that shows where I am at to date. I let the project sit over the summer and am getting ready to finish it this winter.
The ball screws arrived in good shape so I am confident they will work. Subscribe to my channel (never suggested that before) if you haven't already, to get a notice when I make the next video.
hi dear how I can pay new one for milling cnc machene GT160 for Y AXIS
Hello, I'm seeking advice.
Do you think I could adapt this Linear Rails guidance system to fit a wooden door,
similar to the system used for a cantilever gate? My door is made of pine wood,
it's 2 meters long, 90 cm high, and is composed of 5 planks,
each 10 cm wide and 5 cm thick, weighing approximately 50 kg.
I like the guidance system of the cantilever gate,
but it's too large for my small door and I'm considering adapting it with this system.
The door will be outside, do you think this Linear Rails system will rust?
I'm looking forward to your response when you have the time. Thank you.
Is there a link to these slides?
Hi Sbirdranch. Where did you bought those sets and how much did it cost you?
Do you have serial codes for these things?
Good info. Any info on how true the rails are? One way to test is mount then and mount a trammel and mic to one with the probe of the mic contacting the other and running it end to end measuring deviation. I hope to build a 96"X 48" machine (at some point....). Deviation kinda concerns me at such an extreme length.
I do not have anything on the rails and their trueness (word?) As soon as I bolted them to the frame, they became subject to it. Then you add the flatness of the bed, and the consistency of thickness on your material and I have had other things to work on. Best of luck on your build. ~P.
Would you mind checking that link? It doesn't take you to the actual rails you purchased. Also Can you post link to the other video you mentioned?
Thank you for answering. My specific question is what are the slide diameter (16mm, or what) & the lengths of the rails on your set up. Just trying to get a visual perspective of the sizes . Thinking of a 36" x 36" or 42" x 42".
+Keith Bardwell 20mm diameter. The short ones are about 12" and the long ones about 50".
Perfect, I am looking at the exact ones on Ebay also, appreciate your 2 cents on them, makes me feel a little better about buying them. Going to build a 4X8 table
Thanks again,
Your welcome. I don't know what you are planning to use for driving the 8' axis, but an 8' ball screw may present an issue being unsupported across at least 4' in each direction minimum. Just something to be considerate of. ~P
you guys should look into a pinion gear rack if the 8' + ball screws is having issues, had to upgrade one of my units to them after having a few issues with the 8' + ballscrews , only real drawback to them is mounting the motors, but it isnt too bad as well after a bit of research on them, i personally like to use them with these same chinese linear rails dispite the bad reviews on them, as far as i can remember ive only had one or two of these rails go bad, so idk about most people but as long as you keep them lubricated they seem to work great for me, no matter what the work is , with wood, metal, or even the laser shoe they seem to be fine with everything, and can seem to keep the same precision as the other rails, sure you can put a bit more weight on the other kinds, but also you can get these in bigger sizes as well where you can put alot more weight on them as well..
also on mine you can replace the bearings on them, so really if your getting alot of noise in them you can also replace them as well as long as your shafts are fine.
anyhow hope this helps a lil bit on the 8ft issue with your ballscrews (note i still even use ballscrews even now with my z axis, the smaller axis's they work fine on just the longer they go ehhh they have issues then, but always remember everything has a purpose in life :)
Great video, makes life alot easier.
Question:
If you have 2 inline linear sliders on a single rail, how can you make both move at the same time. For example if only one is slid inwards, the other does too. If one is pushed outwards, other goes outwards as well ?
I need to have these equally centered on the rail regardless of position.
Hello, we are a Chinese manufacturer of SBR guide rails and screw rods, and our prices are very cheap. It should be very suitable for you
i ordered two 1m HGR20 rails and they seem to be pretty straight. the ballscrew that came with them is slightly bent but a heard thats due to the manufacturing process. Ill probably order three more sets (2x 1m + 1x 40cm) since they are pretty cheap and sufficient for what im diong with them. 100€ for a 1m set of rails + ballscrew and everything
nice. i was looking for reviews of mgn style ones. but these don't look bad for the y/z axis of my printer since it's not being thrown around
Hi, I'm in the same process, looking for a 3 set of linear rails xyz, after looking v-slot rail with wheels, not sturdy enough, too many parts to adjust, degradation of the wheels, etc I decided for the supported rails, simple and strong.
I see you ordered your linear rails and the ballscrew with the same size, how are you going to do? are going to cut the linear rail to match the size of the threaded part of the ballscrew? I am thinking of ordering but taking into account the machined ends, about 50mm bigger, what do you think ? by the way great video !
With the screws the same length, you don't lose much travel at all. With the bearing blocks on the slides and with them spread out, you can't move the full length anway. It becomes a travel distance of SlideLength - WidthOfCarriage trucks. To prevent over run, I will have limit switches on the final build that will stop the steppers from driving the carriage off the end. I hoped that answered your question.
I haven't worked on my machine this summer, but as winter here in the Eastern US comes back around I will be returning to it, and will have some pictures of what I have done. That may help.
I wanted to ask you if these steel shafts that have the rails are welded
No. They are screwed together from underneath.
I have built several cnc routers looking back I would replace the bearing inserts with a good ceramic or Delrin ply because wood dust gets into my thk slides and the accuracy they have is not worth the constant cleaning for a wood project
Does anybody know how much these rails cost?
Sounds like it’s crunching when you move it and not smooth ????.
Hola lo pueden trabusir en español me interesa compra las piezas gracias
Interesting. Did you check the hardness of the slides?
No. Short of hitting them with a file, I have no empirical way of evaluating them. I will tell you have over a year of intermittent use, there are no signs of wear.
How long r those rails bud
Thank you!
That Dude There +1 for the you tube name. Made me laugh as I read your comment. ~P
Recently i have purchesed st20 round linere quide rail with alu. Block for cnc router, is its works up to 3.5mtr length.
My machine is not that long, but if the rail is supported well it will work.
Thanks SBird, Useful and to the point.
"Miss_my_car" is where I've seen them.
Can't comment on them as a vendor one way or the other, but I just ordered a 1204 350mm long ballscrew/nut set from them.
I just rolled the dice, needed a cheap Z drive fo a HF mini mill, it's replacing an ACME setup, so I figured if it wasn't up to snuff, I'd donate it to STEM - technology in the schools - they do Arduino cnc stuff.
I could put a Thomson or SKF on it, for more than the tool is worth, but this makes sense for the use... 40 bucks, not 340.
For home shop use, most of this kind of stuff isn't too bad. It's not intended for use on the space shuttle.....
Scott
+Scott Marshall My machine is now up and running and as my other video shows, I had some 'discoveries' around the slide bearings, but the ball screws and nuts have given me no issue. Good luck.
You think these would hold up to 700 pounds for a leg press considering it for a build I’m planning
How is grease applied to these rails? Are there grease zerks?
There are no zerks. You can take out the top center set screw and apply some light oil, but I wouldn't use grease in my application. Grease will collect dust and chips.
I want to thank you for the info and video.....I've been preparing to upgrade my cnc to get rid of the (ludicrous) plastic structural parts (which equate into flexing during runs) and have been looking at numerous options...Similar items from McMaster Carr are hundreds of dollars more.
Now I get chastised for buying router bits and end mills from China saying how it's hurting local businesses but considering that a 1/4" straight flute router bit is $44.00 where I live and one from China is $3.00...I can justify spending double, but can't justify spending FOURTEEN times the amount.....
+michael C Besides US vendors sell plenty of "inch" parts which mean they have three time the inventories that would have by being only metric !
As usual I am nervous about parting with ~ $500 for long and heavy items through what ever method of shipping, So I am also wondering about runout of any and all of the rail, and ball screw. Did you give it a look with a dial gauge to see what you had? This is not going to be possible for me, as I don't have a reference to measure from until I have the bed and rails done. And even then, I am using second hand 80/20 so we will see how that goes. Good thing I am not prone to hives :-)
I don't have a reference surface that big either, so checking them is more an eyeball and string kinda thing. One of the reasons I liked the continuous supported rail, is I knew I could shim under it if necessary. ~P
I got both your messages and have responded to both in your YT comments area, as it was getting a bit large, :-)
Staring to get quotes and would like to refer to other offers of kits like that one to compare but it is looking like the Hiwin gear is going to be twice the cost. I just have one little puzzlement: You bought 1605 ballscrews? and did you have to tell them that you were going to use NEMA34 steppers? What length are the ballscrews for a 1200mm Y axis. The same length?Same for the busy X axis and limited real estate of the face of the gantry; are there considerations to be made for the end supports. I have a drawing of a similar sized table that might shed some light on the subject but alas it is an .SKP file or Sketchup and have to reinstall it from scratch. Fun?
Yes. The ball screws were the same length as the rails. Keep in mind that your ball net will require less length to travel simply because there is only one. The spread on your bearings on the rails reduce the length of month and hence the distance the ball net travels.
you using auto correct ? Yeah its all falling into place. Started my Fusion360 session and there lies the library of 80/20 to build with. Be easier with Inventor. I just can't figure on the size of the kit you film here, doesn't scale for me.... Sure you didn't order 20mm stuff
Ya...the old ball net....
I bought those slides for my machine, they worked fine for a few years but I replaced them with self lubricating copper slides from China which are better but still very cheap to buy.
Can you post a link to these? I'm curious. ~P
Do you recommend a particular store on ebay?
No one in particular. There are so many combinations and choices I had to create a spreadsheet. With no past knowledge, I went with price mostly. The best way to buy them is as a set and only one guy had a set that was exactly what I wanted.
Probably fine for a router or plasma table but that is all still transport grade stuff and rolled ball screw threads. My Mercer 0.0001" indicator would say it's sloppy too. Under 100-200 IPM and you're probably better off with bronze.
I want to use these to make a slab flattening mill
Tremendo sistema
Could you post the link to the other video you talked about?
+B0IIE You can click the bubble....or: ruclips.net/video/ljSHwaRmlQ8/видео.html
+sbirdranch thanks for the link. But I meant the review you talk about at 0:40 where the Chinese rails where of poor quality.
+B0IIE I believe it was this video. ruclips.net/video/aGZC1OWVYU4/видео.html
Make no mistake, if you can afford them, the slide he is showing are superior.
Something he mentions late in his video, are the key words he searches ebay with. If you are looking for slides like he shows, use his key words... like 'ball slide'. Good luck in your build.
I didn't see this mentioned but did you guys know the bearing inserts can be replaced with high quality bearing? I have bought the Chinese and threw the inserts out right away and put Thompson bearings in SWEET!
No I am not aware of that. Can you elaborate? A link to the bearings or maybe a video on how you replaced them? That would be great. I'd like to try this.
Yes, please let us know any more info or links for the replacements! And thanks sbirdranch for making this video!
Do tell more!
I lue of your input, I finally did a search and found them quickly. Even Amazon has them. a.co/e2JWuUS
I am having a couple 'pop' which is an indication the balls are not moving smoothly. I am going to double check the dimensions and if they match, give them a try.
and how do you grab things with that kind of bearing on amazon ?
Thanks
I have the same designed 16mm rails and bearings installed on my CNC and they have worked perfectly for about 6 years now. I have only just recently noticed some recesses in a couple of the rails at the load and most used point where obviously one or so of the bearing balls is handling most of the pressure. Honestly I don't have a problem at some point replacing all the rails and bearings maybe in another year or so. However when that time comes problem is knowing, am I going to get quality choosing an eBay store, that's the risk . I recently replaced my Y axis screw backlash bearing that had become sloppy so that's something to watch out for down the track.
You might also be interested in a new RUclips video today I uploaded "Upgrading my CNC Router to Hybrid Closed Loop Stepper Motors" ruclips.net/video/Uz5w8I8PwHI/видео.html
Look forward to seeing more from you.
Thanks for giving me a look further into the future. I'll check out the video links.
Exactly which set did you buy and from which vendor?
+Keith Bardwell I don't remember who. If I come across that in the future I will update the comments. The specs are all the same from different vendors and you can tell they are cut from long lengths of material. Most of them will make any set you want. Just contact them.
+sbirdranch do you have any update about where did you get this from? the name of the vendor in eBay? i like the way they shipped to you. they looks like it is well protected. specially the ball screw with the Styrofoam. please let me know if you remember or if you can check on your eBay account the history of your purchase and find the name of the vendor. thank you very much. have a great day
+miguel0706 www.ebay.com/cln/sbird_seller/cnc/144826516017
do they have greasing holes
+basilenglish No. They do not. At most a light oil is all you would want, and just a coating at that. Any oil or grease would cause them to pickup dirt from the rail.
Amen on Deere
Sounds like the bearing is full of BB's
2:33 for the newbies. back and forth
are those 20mm rails?
Yes they are.
''What a set of chinese balls look like, what it feels like, what it sounds like as they 'come' off ebay, they are really tight and not sloppy'' LOOOOL
Square may be better in some designs but unless you have a perfectly flat mounting surface and VERY rigid frame...they can bind...the round are much more forgiving and basically self aligning....I am switching out my CNCRouterParts.com cold rolled steel and skate bearing rails to this type..although the CNCRP design has performed flawlessly for the past 2+ years...they must be constantly cleaned to perform properly.....
link in eBay please!
+Rubén Rubio Here is a link to my ebay 'collection' with all the parts I have used.
www.ebay.com/cln/sbird_seller/cnc/144826516017
you did not comment about the cost
+Paul Le You are correct. My goal was to share my opinion on the quality and functionality. If I introduce cost into the equation then I feel the need to compare other options. Among just round linear rails from China, the prices are all very similar.
if ballskrew is same lenght as rails it fails allready. why they sale same lenght when you cant get maximum travel from that skrew anyway. rails need be longer or skrew can be shorter lol
I ordered these and they are all warped and bent so much that you can eye them and see the curves. It is too late to return them.
Bummer..... And as a side note to your other comment, I have struggled with how to address an unknown group of individuals on the other side of the digital pipe. Since this video I have settled on "Hello." or "Hello Everyone..." ~P
+ richard g THEY ROTATE ON THE ROUND RAIL (YOU THINK WOBBLE, DUH! WRONG!)
Mine was very not straight
I am not RUclips.
I bought 50 of those same bearings and they were CRAP ! When you sliding them at 1:44 .. thats not smooth..thats rough and coggy compared to others. That so-called adjustment screw pushes on 1 spot and warps the bearing that makes it even WORSE. The better chinese bearing has a slot cut so the adjustment screw pushes on the whole length. There are good chinese for about $10 more. Get the ones with the steel outer bearing casing.
+green323turbo This style is a much better bearing, g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1H3JFHpXXXXc8XFXXq6xXFXXXA/201464116/HTB1H3JFHpXXXXc8XFXXq6xXFXXXA.jpg
Do you have a model number or a link? Thanks for posting this.
RockPDX
I found this over the seller...
m.alibaba.com/product/60182067934/original-IKO-linear-bearing-with-support.html
Thank you! you should do a video so people can know this info.
bearingsdirect.com/linear-bearings/motion-linear-pillow-case-bearings/sdmuu-open-supported-case-pillow-motion-linear-bearing/sdm20uu-open-pillow-case-linear-bearing-20mm-tbr20uu?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI36-zgcvq4QIVxUCGCh3K6gIiEAQYASABEgJDcfD_BwE
700+ usd for these??? damn no...
Hu? They were not used. And I'm not sure if this was clear, but that included all the slides, rails, screws, nuts and bearing blocks.
can i buy these international? because i ordered a lead screw 1m but came damaged..
Once you start to finish your build you will realize how poorly those will be for your application. You cannot work out the play in an adjustable round rail bearing without fighting excessive preload. Nada, zero, zip
+Onnly Secondsleft I haven't found that to be the case. After replacing a couple of bearings that I screwed up (my fault) I am still happy with the price/value. Maybe it is something about my overall design? If I would get off my duff and do an overview video of the machine that would help elicit feedback from you guys/girls.
+Onnly Secondsleft It really depends on the application, for a basic router that only cuts wood and maybe some very light cuts in metal these should be alright, but for anything that might do regular aluminum cuts, a larger machine, or something like a mill or metal lathe, you're right, these would fail horribly. Something like a laser engraver would work great with this as there's very little actual loading besides the weight of the machine itself, and using lightweight aluminum extrusions and fiber optics to transmit the beam would work great with this kind of rail.
Another important thing to consider is the size. For example, 7 or 9 mm profile linear ways (the square kind) would probably end up about the same as 25-30mm round shaft ways. That's kind of a guess with random figures I haven't actually worked out, but you also have to consider size and availability vs price, if a larger round way is cheaper or easier to get than profile rail of the same load rating, then as long as you have room on the machine then there shouldn't be any problem with the round rail.
Personally, for my own machines, I'm using skate bearings on extruded aluminum for an even more budget friendly light duty router (routing soft woods and foam for metal casting forms), and 15mm profile bearings from thk and iko (used on ebay) for a metal lathe I'm building. A single block on the profile rail can hold several time my body weight without any trouble, but I doubt you would be able to do that with these round rails without at least a ton of deflection and innaccuracy, if not destruction of the bearing itself.
+Onnly Secondsleft , I agree, they are terrible and coggy as hell. Especially the 12mm size.
"there's no slop, they are super tight" *wobbles them all over the place*
They will rotate around the round rail they ride on. But when you get them mounted to a plate or whatever, that should not be a problem.
1990notch? se
Sorry, to much bla bla
Chinese doesn't make the best quality material
Well to be fair, I didn't pay for the best either. ~P
English people say we are not rich to buy cheap