Sheryl St. Germain Not sure why you mentioned fairy tales when Romeo and Juliet isn’t even a fairy tale.. It’s a legitimate story with roots stemming from the 1400s. Comparing real life to fairy tales is one of the worst things you could do anyways, seeing as every fairy tale has been rewritten over time to become the “nice clean-cut” versions that we know of today. The stories were not originally written like that.. The originals are in fact much more gruesome. They are actually really good stories but just don’t read them to your kids.. they’ll probably have nightmares for awhile
Constable 1976 Your use of ‘analytics’ was correct if you are referring the data analysis of Dr Grande’s viewership demographics, which it appears you were
I really appreciated what you said at the end there about people screaming at her to kill herself. It seems that when something tragic happens some people give themselves a license to be cruel without reflecting on how their actions are just as immoral as the behavior that caused them to be so emotional in the first place.
👏👏👏 Yes! Absolutely! This is exactly how politicians utilize The Hegelian Dialect (Problem - Reaction - Solution) to tug at the emotional heartstrings of individuals in order to gain notoriety, trust, votes and to sign laws into place IMMEDIATELY AFTER TRAGEDIES OCCUR, that ultimately are basically signing our rights away without people even being fully able to understand/comprehend what's occurring/they're agreeing & some times even demanding to. This is due to thinking off of one's emotional reaction rather than logically.
@Sugar&Spice What Dr. Grande did not mention is he told her didn't want to hurt his family and SHE kept telling him they would be sad for a bit but would be better off without him. When someone is in a state of depression, that is the worst thing you can tell them.
I learned a lot in my 20's because I made some of the worst decision's of my life. I was a very mean person, and a veteran with PTSD . Years later and I can't step on a bug, and volunteer as an animal rescue worker. I slowly pulled my head out of my own ass. Sometimes people change, sometimes they don't.
Your a sweetheart. Don’t beat yourself up about it. Thank You for your service. Having ptsd is no joke. Constant hypervigelent. Terrible sleep but actually no rest. It’s normal to be grumpy.
My stepdad stopped drinking cold turkey and became a much better person. I didn't realize that was the problem since he didn't drink excessively, maybe as much as my dad who is just fine with alcohol, but his behavior is so much different now.
This is a perfect example for all you numb skulls that say “he would’ve killed him self anyway”. YOU DONT KNOW!! She was still wrong and should’ve gotten more jail time while also going to a psych ward.
Thank you for your story! @Levi J sorry to hear about your struggles! You've overcome a lot and are doing good things... I also had major issues with substance and mental health problems that were out of control.. I served jail time several times and had to live in a halfway house and go to programs for years. Now I'm clean and follow the law and try to be the best person I can.. yes I agree! Some people can change it is possible but it requires self awareness and reflection which is difficult for some I've seen many people change for the good although some never did and never will.
When I was a young kid (like six or seven or so) I had a horrendous babysitter (imagine an angry woman with bad hair, smokers voice and a cigarette in her mouth) that would pick me up from school until my mom could come get me, and she had a boy a year younger than me. While we were playing in his room one day he held up a little blue bead he found and asked me if he should put it in his nose, to which I said no to. Then he asked me again, and again, giggling, and I kept telling him no. It became clear through his incessant asking me if he should put the dumb bead in his dumb face that really, he wanted to put the bead in his nose, so to shut him up I sighed and said “fine”, and he did, then it got stuck so he panicked and ran to his mom to get it out. She came into the room and spanked me because he told her I told him to do it. And that’s how I learned that cowards seek permission to do dumb shit they know they shouldn’t do.
I had similar things happen with a sibling. I'd get blamed for when they injured themselves because they said I "told them to do it," which I never did. Kids can be extremely manipulative. Sorry to read that happened to you, but thanks for sharing.
@Shan Nonymous That sounds like the old horror stories from the 60s . Rod Serling wrote. Horrible torture. That poor kid. I had an older sister like that also.
Different scenario; I had a cousin who pretended she had a gun in her hands, and forced me into our uncle’s sheep barn. She knew I was terrified of those huge gross sheep! I was six years old! She also chased me up the jungle gym in her backyard, and I fell off in my scramble of terror and passed out from getting the wind knocked out of me. My aunt and uncle had zero sympathy for me, since my Mom had passed me off to them for the summer after her mental breakdown from my Dad divorcing her. Fast forward 45 years; my Mom died and my cousin couldn’t attend the funeral ( in her same hometown) because her daughter was going to an important football game that night. She was already a bad apple ( or at least pretty disturbed) from a very young age. I’m an only child, but I don’t need relationships that badly! We don’t communicate at all any longer.
Dear Dr Grande, you are putting up so much content up and while I am glad for it I am starting to get worried, as I have an idea how much work this can be. Take care of yourself! :)
Ha-ha, find him bent over, but not with worry! That's the load of gold he's deservedly raking in on this channel. I'll bet other psychiatrists are kicking themselves that they didn't see the attraction of such a channel. "Me on RUclips? How low brow," they must've all told each other.
Couldn’t agree more. So tough no matter which way you look at it. The primary thing that bothered me was her playing both her friends and Conrad’s family. Regardless, they were two people who clearly should not have been involved with one another.
isn't age 8 young for an eating disorder? Goodness, what was going on in her home? And both young people felt they were destined for hell. How sad. Terrible mess.
Unfortunately not now with the internet and TV....And lots of parents just let their kids watch anything...it plants thoughts. Got to watch their ear gate and eye gate..
He described today’s youth perfectly by saying their texting would often attempt to discuss complex and serious topics while under the context of a trivial conversation.
tina w. I had to google in order to find out the identity and significance of this Dorinda person. I still don’t understand the reference. I guess it would only make sense to people who watch “real housewives” shows.
This case fascinated me as someone who's been suicidal while talking with other suicidal people online. Death looks like a GOOD option to someone who wants it, and the ones brave enough to do it are envied by the others wanting to. Since Carter was suicidal herself, I believe, pressuring him could seem like the kind thing to do. On the other hand, trying to get someone to die is immoral, and suicidal people typically sense this, and still try to stop others from going through with it, even if they are suicidal themselves.
I think she wanted the attention imo, I haven’t read much about it and I’m curious of this analysis but the way she offered help to his family and the way she acted. I got the impression she felt invisible and wanted the attention she was getting from being poor sad Romeo.
Thank you Dr. Grande for your content. It’s nice to have a competent and kind individual sharing their knowledge with us. Your work is always insightful and honest, and never sensationalized. Something often missing in true crime and/or mental health related content. It is very, very much appreciated. Keep up the phenomenal work!
Roy’s parents are just as accountable as carter, if not more so. Conrad’s dad doesn’t regret hitting him and the mom found a suicide site on Conrad’s computer and never followed up
Um...I wouldn't say both parents are JUST as accountable. That's a ridiculous claim! Eyebrows is the culprit here but the dad is definitely to blame for some abuse. Yes, the mom should have done more but to hold her just as accountable as Eyebrows is ridiculous. You don't know the circumstances and you also don't know how much the mom did or didn't do. Let's end the assumptions here and just enjoy the video!
Of course she's a terrible person but I can't imagine what it would be like if someone threatened suicide to me constantly for years. That's also abusive
She really needed to get the hell out of that relationship. At some point another persons suicidal threats can become so detrimental that you really need outside help.
@@alwaysyouramanda She did far more than that. She knew he was actually going through with it and talked him into getting back into the car. Regardless, no one should ever say kys. I have never said kill yourself to anyone. Please stop normalizing this.
I am so glad you've talked about this case. It's really fascinating for me. I find her actions horrific but at the same time I know how one can get really angry and even hateful towards someone they were trying to help before. Sometimes it's better to just leave and stop being so invested than to let your frustration and own psychological problems lead to something like this.
You are definitely one of the things missing in my life. I was raised around intellectuals and now as an adult I spend no time with them. This I'd the dose of dry intellect i need in my life. Love it!
I hadn't looked at this case from an alternate perspective until watching this, so thank you. I also liked your comments at the end about people telling her to commit suicide. Doesn't really help the cause if your attempting to advocate justice for the man who took his life.
Thank you for talking about this. My abusive ex would often use suicide threats as a manipulation tool. After this case, I was greatly concerned about getting blamed if he did, particularly as he is white and I am brown. Rationality is already warped. Anyway, I know that it is different now, but I still think that it was bizarre to convict her. There are so many abusive men who cause the suicide of their partners through not only encouragement, but also by creating an environment of immense fear. None of these men has ever been convicted of manslaughter.
Except that this young man was deeply depressed and felt totally hopeless and distraught! Your comparison does not fit this situation! There is a huge difference between someone being manipulative and someone severely depressed, seeing no hope! Yes, depressed people can be manipulative, some out of desperation, others deliberately! I don't believe this is the case here for either! He needed serious help pronto! He was in a deep hole he didn't know how to get out of! I wish Dr Grande talked about the childhood and how much care and help he was given by his parents and doctors, etc!
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. However, here, this was in the context of hundreds of other texts where she basically kept pushing him to kill himself. Stephanie Harlow reads dozens of text exchanges between them, and Michelle would just bring up pushing him to kill himself so frequently when he hadn't said anything about it. The ongoing encouragement in the many, many text messages to kill himself creates the context where even being on the phone and in contact with him all of that time in the car, which we know she was, and not calling for help, even if we can't prove she told him to get back in the car, warrants a conspiracy or manslaughter charge. It didn't seem that he was the one contacting her trying to get attention and threatening suicide, but rather that she wanted the attention and their conversations would sometimes turn to suicidal ideation, often at her urging.
Very Complex. There comes a time in a friendship/relationship where if one of the parties continues to attempt suicide and the partner has been trying to help them not go through with it, they finally break and begin to say ok maybe you'd be better off dead. I have lived this dynamic out myself. I know how a friend or lover can be a supportive person and after being worn down change and become a helper as such in doing the suicide. This is VERY difficult to analyze because there are too many factors at hand. I would say after what I went through she is innocent. Thanks Dr Grande.
It's impossible to judge someone for how they grieve too, on both ends. The self-doubt it brings can be crippling and isolating. Unconditional love can be twisted sometimes and used to keep away reality. Experience teaches us to judge more clearly and react less to emotion. Thank you for sharing. I agree with you.
That's a very interesting case. When I was a teen I had a boyfriend who cas constantly threatening about killing himself, but he used it as a way to mamipulate me. I was so stressed about it that at one point I told him to go ahead and do it. Thank God he didn't do anything, but I can understand a bit more how she was able to say such thing. I'm not defending her, that was a very immature thing to say.
Yes, when someone keeps threating something over and over and nothing you do or say helps then at some point you may get totally fed up and say something like she did (if she, in fact, said it), I'm not saying that was the right thing to do.
I know what you mean. I had a boyfriend who would didn’t accept our break up and kept calling me saying he was going to throw himself under a bus if I didn’t take him back. At the moment I had already been through so much emotional abuse from him, so much manipulation, I kept trying to stay away and he kept showing up at my house, stalking me at work and social events, that I simply had enough and told him to do whatever he wanted, but I wasn’t getting back together. He didn’t kill himself, but he only left me alone once he made up a story in his head that the reason for me leaving had to be infidelity. Now I know that I was in a very dangerous relationship with a covert narcissist, but back then there was not this kind of information, plus I was only a teenager. The worst is that people judge me and think he is such a wonderful, sensitive guy, who loved me very much; people have no idea how terrible and life sucking covert narcs are. I used to have nightmares in which he stalked me, I kept trying to escape and he would keep coming after me.
i can understand saying it in the heat of the moment, fed up with the constant threats but she constantly brought it up to him. i read all the texts. she was asking him when he’s gonna do it and if he didn’t she said she was disappointed in him and he should try again. at one point she said, “oh do you think this is a good tweet to say after you’re dead?” “can you tweet something about me before you do it?” i think she enjoyed it.
Thank you for helping us cut through the strong emotional reactions that this case evokes and helping us to acknowledge the many many layers of tragedy, illness, and events that were going on under the surface. I’ve worked closely with multiple criminals and victims over the years regarding youth and adults with special needs. I have never had a case that was simple and clear cut - thank you for such a well-researched and objective exploration of this polarizing case!
As an atypically depressed person with a melancholic-ly depressed partner, it's hard enough *without* anyone constantly threatening suicide. I cant imagine how exhausting that would be. Not saying it's right what she did, but she was really just following his lead all along. You nailed it.
Well she didn't have any mental health supports to help her cope with this. I have my own issues and have great mental health supports and would of known to nip that in the bud pretty damn quick.
this was in the context of hundreds of other texts where she basically kept pushing him to kill himself. Stephanie Harlow reads dozens of text exchanges between them, and Michelle would just bring up pushing him to kill himself so frequently when he hadn't said anything about it. The ongoing encouragement in the many, many text messages to kill himself creates the context where even being on the phone and in contact with him all of that time in the car, which we know she was, and not calling for help, even if we can't prove she told him to get back in the car, warrants a conspiracy or manslaughter charge. It didn't seem that he was the one contacting her trying to get attention and threatening suicide, but rather that she wanted the attention and their conversations would sometimes turn to suicidal ideation, often at her urging.
It's fine to fall on either side... As long as you understand this is actually a deeply complex and messy case with equally complicated implications regardless of the outcome.
4 года назад+32
I feel like I’m listening to Bob Ross with that soothing relaxing voice.😌
Interesting analysis as always, Dr Grande! Thank you. A confronting & tragic case. I wonder, had they been local to each other.. visiting each others homes.. on occasion, greeting each others parents etc.. Would Carter have opted to speak to his mum.. or even her own!? Potentially making their relationship more 'real world ' as opposed to black & white letters on a screen!? A timely reminder to us all... black & white letters can greatly impact & or influence another. My thoughts are with his parents & loved ones..
They were BOTH MENTALLY ILL. I have totally shifted my view of these sorts of cases. I used to have the typical American judgemental hatred which is rooted in the need for blame and vengeance. I now see things differently. We don't adequately address mental illness in America. We are trained to rain down hatred and rage on these people. I have shifted my point of view.
@Michelle Vesely The parents (understandably) need someone to blame. However, he had already attempted suicide, yet no one was monitoring his commuication....even clandestinely.....They had no idea that he was speaking DAILY about killing himself.
@@blackalien6873 "typical American judgemental hatred" very much oof. pretty damn ignorant expression. being American has nothing to do with it. You still having some views to shift when it comes to the west. Tons of people aren't hateful or judgemental. Other countries that are much further behind are 10000x worse when it comes to mental illness. The judgemental hateful people are just dumb, dumb people are everywhere.
As a mother to a toddler, it truly breaks my heart to imagine for a even second my child wanting to kill himself someday. This is just so incredibly sad.
Given that, sadly, 25% of the population has suicidal ideation at some point in their lives, it’s an extremely common widespread issue. I definitely attribute the rise in suicidal ideation to the rise of social media. Seems like teen suicide (completed suicides) are on the rise since 2008, around the time social media sites really took off. Cyber bullying is a nasty new form of bullying that in many ways is worse than face-to-face bullying.
When I first read about this case it made me so ill I literally vomited. I could not get it out of my head for a month. There was something about reading the correspondence of that evening between the two that made me physically queasy. All I could see was Roy trying to find a dignified way out of his plan, only to be coerced by Carter to get back in the truck as to not disappoint her. After hearing your analysis, it definitely shed some much needed light on the subject and permitted a frame of reference for the part that Carter played in Roy's death. I was not aware that she discouraged him from killing himself for 2 years and I was not aware he attempted suicide 4 times in the past. It truly seems like much of this was a "fantasy" of sorts for both of them and it seems like they were both immature, simmering over with mental illness and fanciful ideas. Although I feel Carter did get off easy, I also understand that this is a complex case and that Carter, may not be the "devil" and just a very confused, mentally ill woman. She has the rest of her life to mature and ruminate about her role in Roy's suicide, and that is a life sentence indeed.
it does not matter if she started out supportive, she very quickly turned into someone who mocked and encouraged him to kill himself. that’s like saying an abusive partner was great and kind at first to excuse their abuse later in the relationship. i’m not saying that’s what you’re doing here but i don’t think we can say she was supportive of him when that support turned into manipulation.
@@yingyang2838 That is not what I was implying. I was not absolving her of any responsibility whatsoever. I said the documentary provided a context for the circumstances surrounding the relationship and Roy's suicide. It provided an explanation of the severity of mental illness that both Roy and Carter were experiencing. There is no doubt in my mind that Roy may have eventually killed himself with or without Carter at some point ...but Carter certainly facilitated it that night for certain. No one will ever know the full truth except for Carter. If you have not seen the documentary, I advise watching it.
@@yingyang2838 But she wasn't his partner. They only saw each other in person a couple of times. And he was the one initially abusive as he kept telling her he was going to do it, then going off the grid for a couple of days to make her think he had done it causing her huge amounts of stress and worry, and getting pleasure from manipulating her emotions. Yes it was wrong what she did, but I don't think she was guilty of manslaughter. I think he would have done it anyway at some point.
@@xxyes8879 she knew he was suicidal and told him to get back in the car and finish the job. She’s a monster. If the roles were reversed do you think anyone would have sympathy for this guy? Absolutely not. I don’t think she should have gotten a manslaughter charge either but it’s because she’s a pretty little white blonde girl that people have sympathy for her and say things like you do like well he would have done it anyway. She shouldn’t have gotten a charge but is still a monster. If the roles were reversed he would still be in jail and nobody would have a bit of sympathy for him.
You are the absolute best, Dr Grande! I have heard other RUclipsrs talk about this case in much more subjective ways and have always taken nothing away. It never occurred to me that they were co-conspirators - each getting something from the other. The angel and devil on the shoulders was a great analogy! I had suggested you do this a couple of months ago and I'm so happy you got around to it. I knew that if _you_ talked about this case there'd be a take away for me. _"Would those who shouted 'kill yourself' to Michelle Carter be culpable too?"_ [paraphrased]. Boom! You're right. We're often hateful, thoughtless people with strong opinions. This will hopefully remind me to make the most of *_kindness_* in the future, and others as well. Thanks a million for this! 🌹👍
This is so sad. My first love committed suicide. That pain never really leaves you. I wouldn’t wish the pain of working through that on anyone. Thank you for covering this tragedy.
Thanks for explaining this case, I always thought was something else behind the sensationalism presented as news headlines. I hope she gets some psychological help. And you keep carrying on such a good work! Love your channel! 🧠☺️
@upvote fairyI think it is a damaged person that can do something like encourage a person to get back into a car filled with carbon monoxide, someone either very disconnected, immature, or very sick and evil. I'm not sure about the morality or ethics, and I guess That we have to be very cautious when it comes to the LAW. Her not being capable in eyes of the law doesn't mean she doesn't have culpability in the sense of causation. Because she had the power to save as well as to be passive, or active in his f8nal destruction. I personally try to save lives. I have completed three suicide prevention courses because I want to not only be able to recognise someone on this type of distress and torment but to know how to act. And it's not that it don't respect a person's right to self annihilate. We can't project our description of PAIN upon someone. But if someone needs human connection and they are not getting it, how will they be able to feel any different than they do in the moments of desperation when they want to kill themselves. And I say kill themselves because.... it's often that... not wanting to die, bit to kill oneself! To annihilate that which is the omnipresence of dark, that lack of light, that lack of hope. You are not trying to solve someone s life problems in the moment you prevent them from moving forward with a plan to die, just to have them exist a day longer. Then a day longer.
I can see this case easily covering an entire semester of law, sociology, or even philosophy. There is just so much to discuss here. I especially like what Dr. Grande points out at the end, the irony of the crowd's cries.
Lol! I could see myself saying this. It's hard to be shocked by people these days & my adhd would have me concerned w the task part of the statement. The bomb part could click at anytime after...'here you go, $10... wait. What did you say?' 🤔
I haven't watched the whole video yet but when I first heard about this case it really hurt my heart for Conrad and his family. I've been suicidal before and related a lot to how he was feeling. I was also around the same age as him. I heavily relied on my friends for support. I know I wouldn't have recovered if it wasn't for them, and I feel like recovery for Conrad was 100% possible if it wasn't for her. I could see parts of myself in Conrad, including the parts that wanted to get better. I enjoy dissecting true crime and stuff, but this particular case hits a really tough spot for me.
I’d like to hear an analysis of prisoners who “find God”. Are they sincerely having a new experience or does it just provide some respite from the boredom,, and perhaps leniency in the minds of judges, family and the public
Isolation can bring about 'soul searching' journeys. Maybe they do 'find god' but it doesn't mean they aren't still flawed. You'd think by this time, we'd stop putting this god thing on a pedestal and value human life more.
You're my favorite. Very well thought out video, as always. Just watched the I love You, Now Die documentary- and your words are almost all my exact thoughts. Thank god because I didn't want to come write it all down. Although- she also texted that he raped her. She was a compulsive liar through text. She could have made so much of her story up. She was delusional. Also, he was most definitely highly active in his consistency of his suicidal ideation- having attempted and continuing to look up Google searches on how-to / I think his result could've very much ended the same. Saying she was the trigger isn't completely accurate. He could've just as well found another mentally unwell human and ended up in the same exact position. And his, "seeing the devil and the devil wanted him to kill people" text made me question Schizophrenia or another underlying condition irregardless. A tough case for sure. Holy..
what a great analysis, especially the part where you explain how she was embodying and "giving life" to his desire. I think she felt manipulated during her relationship, if it is true that he threatened to commit suicide multiple times. this is an enormous stress on one person, to worry constantly for the death of a loved one. I think something might have snapped inside her, and her words might have been an internal protest to the distress she had endured (maybe she felt like a trash bin for Roy negative thoughts and emotions). especially since she felt he "pretended" to do it, she might have felt "needlessly" abused, and her words might have been a provocation in response to this ("you keep abusing me with this threaths? ok, then i'll give you what you want, just do it"). and i think a part of her wanted him to realize, throughout her partecipation in this craziness, how all of this was really a crazy delirium. I am not justifying her actions, which are objectively deplorable, but i think its naive to think she's just some evil monster, things are usually more complicated than that.
its important to read the actual texts if you havent, it really is horrible and changes the way you view the case. she didnt 'just snap', it was relentless, over days and telling hhim how annd when to do it
Read the texts. It wasn't just once in a spur of the moment, she told him for months to "just do it" and even suggested the methods. Once, on an evening that they decided he would do it, he dropped off from conversation, she was panicking because she thought he killed himself without saying proper goodbye to her, not because she was distraught about him dying. When he later wrote that he just took some sleeping pills because he wanted to have a good night's sleep for the last time, she told him off. He would delay a few times more for different reasons, once admitting to her that he had second thoughts, and she berated him for it and told him to "just do it, don't think about it, just do it". To me, it's clear that he didn't really want to die, or at least he was scared to die. When he kept getting cold feet, she had a golden opportunity to make him cling to that fear and make him rethink it, but instead she kept telling him to "just do it". And ther's also the fact that on the day of his death, Conrad got scared when he felt the gas working and left the car, and she told him to get back in. She had already told one of her friends that he killed himself BEFORE he went to do it and she didn't want him to embarrass her. I know that Conrad kept talking about suicide long before his death and that it can ve very harmful to the person on the other end, if he was an adult, I would go as far as calling it emotional abuse. But I don't think he realized how toxic this kind of behavior was, he was just pouring his heart to her and maybe subtly asking for help. I can relate to this a lot because I was also suicidal when I was depressed and there was one friend whom I could vent to and I also told him about how I wanted to kill myself, though not as extensively as Conrad. I only realized years later what I must have put him through by talking like that. Teenagers just don't always have enough experience or insight to know how they can unintebtionally harm someone with their words. And then there's depression that just distorts the way someone thinks. But Michelle could have walked away. Instead she started enabling him and flat out bullying him into doing it, and it didn't last a day or a week, it went on for months. You'd think if he really wanted to die it wouldn't have taken her MONTHS to pressure him to do it. I think Michelle needs help just as Conrad did and I don't think she's beyond rehabilitation. But 15 months is not nearly a long enough sentence and there should have been some kind of mandatory therapy attendance in place, preferably for life. As it stands now, I think she could still do it to someone else.
Never thought of that but there was one time when my mom threatened to kill herself and I snapped, "Do it then!I don't care!" Because she threatened it so often and the reason she was threatening it that time was because i was moving out after she had called me screaming to help her throw away her stuff because she was a hoarder and i commented a week before that she needed to decide what was worth keeping. She ripped up my only photo of a child i had lost in her demented rage
@@Shirafune161 I agree with pretty much everything you said. It's one thing if it was an emotional outburst confined to one moment but this went on for MONTHS and she even helped plan his suicide. Dealing with a suicidal partner can be mentally draining and traumatizing but most people who cannot handle it decide to leave the relationship. Carter chose a much more morbid and immoral way of ending their relationship and cutting him out of her life. I understand what she must have gone through but I can't bring myself to sympathize with Carter because she didn't need to resort to such an evil act.
@@scootdude12 If you've read all the texts,you'll have seen how relentless he was texting day in day out about what he wanted to do and she told him for 2 years straight not to. He was emotionally and mentally manipulative and abusive to her. You can't take part of a story and twist it to suit your narrative.
I would have told his parents about his intentions, the ball would’ve been in their court. If she was so tired of his need for attention, she should’ve walked our of his life.Period.
I just struggle with this because we know his home life was pretty screwed up. His dad had been arrested for beating him and apparently his mom didn’t care, or at least didn’t say anything, when she saw that he left a website open about how to kill yourself on his computer. He also made it very clear to her in his texts that he didn’t want her to tell anyone. Could he still be alive today if she had gone against his wishes and gotten him help? Maybe. But he could have also felt that the person he seemed to care the most about betrayed him and just made an already toxic family life worse, and been driven to suicide, or even deeper depression. This case is such a tough one for me it honestly hurts my head.
I know, right. People feeling sorry for her baffles my mind. Even if she couldn't put up with his suicide threats she didn't have to give him a nudge. I've read their entire communication and more than once he implied he can't go trough with the suicide and she pushed him to it saying she's disappointed in him. I don't think she just enjoyed the attention from this, I also think she likes the high from taking someone else's life without actually pulling the trigger.
This is a monstrous tragedy and I really can’t see a way around finding her actions to be totally unconscionable. But you did open my mind a bit by pointing out that Romeo and Juliet stupidity.Really Dr. Grande you’re the only person who can make me feel like I don’t have an ope n mind. I’m a pretty much pathological empath. This is a very difficult case. You have convinced me I should be less judgmental about her contribution to what happened. You are really a great doctor. Thank you for handling these cases so carefully
Great analysis! On the question as to whether people shouting at Carter to kill herself would be committing the same crime, I’d say the main difference there is the absence of the pre existing relationship. She wasn’t in the act of killing herself or known to be suicidal when people shouted that at her. I’d imagine people shouting that at her would be doing it to show her what it feels like to hear other people think she’d be better off dead. They certainly couldn’t really be thinking she’d actually just do what they said. Whereas she *knew* her “friend” was suicidal. She knew he had got to a place where he was actually going through with it and she still encouraged him to carry it out. That has to be more reprehensible because of the knowledge and foresight involved. She knew her words were likely to be acted on.
Dr Grande, what would be your advice for someone who was in a situation like Carter where her boyfriend figure constantly talked about suicide yet refused to seek professional treatment? I imagine that the manipulation of mental health and unfair boundaries is sadly quite common. Thoughts? 🤔
Contact local law enforcement. Speak to parents if they are a minor. Child services is also another option. In these situations it is best to have professionals handle it to promote safety. Know that it is never your job to save them and it is best to have professionals involved.
I have watched your channel now for at least a year or two. I love Psychology and I really enjoy what you do here. I agree with you on some things, maybe not so much at other times... C'est la vie... This was probably my favorite of all of your videos I've seen. That was a fascinating analysis and clearly well researched and thought out. I kept thinking "wow, he really dug into this and is spot on" among other things. For whatever it's worth from one like myself, I really enjoy your channel and I think people can learn a lot about critical thinking and human nature from you. Well done, thank you for what you do.
I’ve dealt with suicidal thoughts since six years ago. To have someone lean their life on you is extraordinary stressful to citizens that have no idea what to do - let alone for a paid licensed counselor.
Any stress is awful when you already have dark thoughts/feelings, when someone makes you feel responsible for their life too it does get to be overwhelming.
I read a lot of the text messages back when the trial was going on, I believe Roy said something to Carter along the lines of “the only way I could ever hate you is if you told someone”. Roy’s parents seemed kind of checked out from what I recall, and I believe his dad beat him. But his parents considered Michelle Carter 100% responsible for his death. They obviously knew about his past suicide attempts but had convinced themselves he was doing better.
Elizabeth Ann Yep...a lot of denial on his parents’ part. They have to believe Michelle is evil and drove him to it...in reality there was a lot more going on. The parents were/are in absolute denial.
SaurusRahwr We understand that...and that’s what we’re saying...the fact that he had little to no people in his life to count on, like his parents, played FAR more of a role in his suicide than Michelle ever did IMO.
Brilliant and as always totally impartial breakdown and analysis of an extremely complicated case. The HBO doc does a great job and covers a ton that i for one had never read or heard, and Dr. Grande takes all that a giant step further in shedding light with his expertise. Made me wish yet again he'd been a consultant on this case.
tysm for this Dr. Grande, unfortunately i was 1 of the ppl who thought michelle carter was just a cold hearted person... i had no clue of her own mental/emotional disturbances, i thought they went to school together 🤦🏽♀️ as always, thx again for the enlightenment 🤗
just because someone has mental issues does not make them any less of a cold hearted person. you need to actually read the text messages instead of listening to one persons review of a documentary made to make her look more sympathetic.
sorry to hear about your chronic pain and difficultly walking...that was straight up one of the best vids i have ever seen on this platform...your mind is amazing, especially since it seems grounded in empathy and compassion.
After 50+ videos of Dr. Grande **Me watching a show on TV on unsolved mysteries*** Me: "You know according to the 5 personality traits as I remember them after the acronym OCEAN....the perpetrator probably.... ...." Hahaha. Love your educational channel!
Very fascinating insight into how Carter switched over to being supportive of his awful plan! I'd only ever considered the attention by proxy aspect which would've be exceptionally manipulative, but you really summed up how she slowly swiched to supporting him without her feeling like a badguy for it. It was a horrible thing to do, no excuse, but the "How" and "why" is super fascinating. Brilliant doctor, thank you!!
Wooo boy I’ve been watching your videos all day, and your new one showed up right on time because I was running out of things to watch lmao. Love ya lots Dr. Grande. Hope you’re taking care!!! P.S. Video idea: Would you do a MH&P analysis on “Donnie Darko” (2001)? What does Donnie appear to suffer from? How do you gauge his behavior and how the people around him reacted i.e. his parents seeking help? What lessons can we take from the film on the topic of mental health? Thank you!
I was fascinated by that movie(Donnie Darko) and watch it from time to time to this day, I would also really enjoy your analysis on it@Dr. Grande. Regardless of what you cover I always look forward to it greatly.
This is one of the more tragic cases I’ve heard of. Two lonely, isolated young people connect based on their shared insecurities…it sounds like he began using her as his mental health counselor, and she became overwhelmed and couldn’t handle the constant demand on her emotions to prop him up. The relationship had never been “real” to her, and the strange atmosphere of escapism and fantasy that is the internet could easily account for her loss of perspective.
Dr. Grande’s analysis of the Gypsy Rose Blanchard got me hooked on this channel- now again I get to delight in the nuance and clarity in how Dr. G explains the law’s limitations when human behavior is so complex. In a good way, his work produces satisfaction and a way to tolerate ambiguity with greater ease.
well said! I want to tell stories about my mental illness and my experiences with suicidal thoughts and how it was personally helpful, in my case. it's pointless to share it here (and ask if you want....I understand how people will think im trying to get people to ask. I'm not. I'm also not going to share anything here) because this is a RUclips comment section. RUclips comment sections can be great places for learning and growth ....but, usually they are cancer. I've heard stories on here that it still dont buy....ones I didnt think were true but was given evidence proving me wrong....and have shared my personal experiences many times, only to be called a liar or attention seeker. it's not hurtful, it's just a sad waste of time. there is, however, a ton to be learned about in this video and it's a topic very close to my heart. I appreciate your honest and fair opinion on the matter! most seems afraid to address it at all. suicide....its one of the word our society seems blow out of proportion. thank you for the excellent content!
Kanda panda. You are very worthy. Your thoughts are valued. Sharing your story might even help one person. That alone is amazing. Thank you for your post!
I really appreciated your take on the idea that she may have lied to her friend about telling Conrad to get back in the truck. That is something I rarely hear anyone bring up, but that I’ve thought from the beginning as far as the extent of her lies versus reality. She would say the most desperate things for attention to these girlfriends she was texting and I think it is not unreasonable at all to think she didn’t actually tell him to get back in the truck, but rather fabricated this in order to gain attention from the friend she was texting. Thank you for this video!
I really like your question about the guilt of the court spectators who were yelling at her to kill herself...something to think about...great video, as always 💖👍🏼💖
only if they kept doing it consistently five times a day for years..THAT'S the difference..saying something once in the heat of the moment is different than repeating it like a mantra for years on end
Where did you hear that? It was only in the last week of his life that she encouraged him to do it. I must look to see how long the trial went on for, but my guess is that I bet those spectators told her to kill herself more times than she told Conrad Roy to...
Not a comment on this subject specifically, but your videos are so useful for recognising malignant traits in others in real life; covert narcissists, especially!
Imagine someone you care about threatening suicide for 2 years straight. Most healthy individuals are not equipped to deal with that at all, let alone mentally ill ones. I do think that in some bizarre way, she thought that she was doing what's best for him by encouraging him to commit suicide since his condition wasn't improving and he was only going to continue suffering from her perspective. Regardless, while obviously no one should be encouraging anyone to commit suicide in any way, I do firmly believe that, in the end, suicide is one's own decision. While others might bear a moral responsibility for someone's suicide due to their words, that responsibility shouldn't be criminal.
I dont agree, she shouldn't have encouraged him, period. If it's on him, then he should have done it by himself, but it wasn't by himself, she was encouraging him.
Have we ever imprisoned someone with mental problems who told others to commit a crime? Charles Manson! The Manson family didn’t have to listen to him, but they did and we still locked his ass up. Words have a profound effect on people.
@@GC-pq6vm Manson urged people to commit murder which is a crime. As Dr Grande mentioned in the video, suicide is not a crime, and I think that's the main distinction. I do think that things aren't generally black and white, and there are probably some cases where I would agree that someone should be charged for urging another to commit suicide, but this case isn't it in my opinion, especially since the girl in question had to endure her boyfriend threatening suicide for 2 years straight which is very abusive and traumatic.
magicalgirl yes, I agree, not an accurate comparison. But saying he did it on his own free will and what she said shouldn’t have mattered is not exactly the case. She should’ve told the family members and left him alone. I can understand his constant threats got emotionally taxing on her but she never should’ve told him to do it when he became hesitant.
@@GC-pq6vm I agree with you, they both needed help, and what she did was definitely wrong, I'm just not sure to what degree we can prosecute behavior like this. If I make a dumb post online that goes viral and a few people tell me to kill myself, should they be prosecuted criminally? If we make it so that this is criminal behavior, then people should be prosecuted for attempted murder even if I don't commit suicide. What if I am terribly depressed and someone calls me mad ugly which ends up being the final straw for me? If an abuser constantly threatens with suicide, and finally one time his victim tells him to do it and the abuser actually does, should the victim be prosecuted? A lot of people might say no, the victim isn't guilty, so when does the victim become guilty? If she says it twice, three times? Obviously, I would say that a cult leader should be prosecuted if he gets 100 of his members to kill themselves because not only is that an atrocious crime, but also because he, as a leader, is in a clear position of power over the members, but where do we draw the line for other cases? I don't have these answers honestly, but I do believe that people are responsible for their own actions, and for this case that applies because Michelle had an equal relationship with Conrad (she was not his boss, teacher, abuser or anything like that) which is why I hold my current position. Also, Michelle was 17 at the time, which should be taken into an account.
I did this case in my podcast during its first episode. Though I knew of this case prior and had seen documentaries, watching your analysis and studying carefully the details of the case and of the two young people, my heart broke. There is so much we dont understand and so much we take for granted or as not important. Thank you for your amazing work.
"when a couple starts comparing themselves to Romeo and Juliette this is usually a bad sign" Yep.
@Sheryl St. Germain 💯👏
Especially because the message of Romeo and Juliet is more about the dangers of infatuation than it is about love.
Sheryl St. Germain Not sure why you mentioned fairy tales when Romeo and Juliet isn’t even a fairy tale.. It’s a legitimate story with roots stemming from the 1400s. Comparing real life to fairy tales is one of the worst things you could do anyways, seeing as every fairy tale has been rewritten over time to become the “nice clean-cut” versions that we know of today. The stories were not originally written like that.. The originals are in fact much more gruesome. They are actually really good stories but just don’t read them to your kids.. they’ll probably have nightmares for awhile
Young people want to be SID and Nancy too
Amen to that!
Dr. Grande I just found out my 16 year old niece and her friends are all fans of your channel...your analytics must be fascinating!
* analyses (singular:analysis)
Not my intention to offend, only help! 😊
Constable 1976 Your use of ‘analytics’ was correct if you are referring the data analysis of Dr Grande’s viewership demographics, which it appears you were
I wish I found something like this at a young age, may help to identify and avoid troubled people..always a good thing
Oh, acting big man Dr Grande. Too cool to answer. Too cool for school ;P :)
J t yes. Dr. Grande analytics have got to range from all ages to all walks of life. I hope he does a video on this ;)
I really appreciated what you said at the end there about people screaming at her to kill herself. It seems that when something tragic happens some people give themselves a license to be cruel without reflecting on how their actions are just as immoral as the behavior that caused them to be so emotional in the first place.
👏👏👏
Yes! Absolutely! This is exactly how politicians utilize The Hegelian Dialect (Problem - Reaction - Solution) to tug at the emotional heartstrings of individuals in order to gain notoriety, trust, votes and to sign laws into place IMMEDIATELY AFTER TRAGEDIES OCCUR, that ultimately are basically signing our rights away without people even being fully able to understand/comprehend what's occurring/they're agreeing & some times even demanding to. This is due to thinking off of one's emotional reaction rather than logically.
@@MrAnarchris And that's the basic argument against the death penalty.
@Sugar&Spice What Dr. Grande did not mention is he told her didn't want to hurt his family and SHE kept telling him they would be sad for a bit but would be better off without him. When someone is in a state of depression, that is the worst thing you can tell them.
@@jenneacubero1036 Jon Venables and Robert Thompson murdered a toddler. This lady suggested her friend to kill himself. There's a difference.
@John Cleet
"Civility is a fantasy"
Only to those who don't enjoy engaging civilly.
I learned a lot in my 20's because I made some of the worst decision's of my life. I was a very mean person, and a veteran with PTSD . Years later and I can't step on a bug, and volunteer as an animal rescue worker. I slowly pulled my head out of my own ass. Sometimes people change, sometimes they don't.
Your a sweetheart. Don’t beat yourself up about it. Thank You for your service. Having ptsd is no joke. Constant hypervigelent. Terrible sleep but actually no rest. It’s normal to be grumpy.
My stepdad stopped drinking cold turkey and became a much better person. I didn't realize that was the problem since he didn't drink excessively, maybe as much as my dad who is just fine with alcohol, but his behavior is so much different now.
Very true 👍
This is a perfect example for all you numb skulls that say “he would’ve killed him self anyway”. YOU DONT KNOW!! She was still wrong and should’ve gotten more jail time while also going to a psych ward.
Thank you for your story! @Levi J sorry to hear about your struggles! You've overcome a lot and are doing good things... I also had major issues with substance and mental health problems that were out of control.. I served jail time several times and had to live in a halfway house and go to programs for years. Now I'm clean and follow the law and try to be the best person I can.. yes I agree! Some people can change it is possible but it requires self awareness and reflection which is difficult for some I've seen many people change for the good although some never did and never will.
I’m in nursing school and my psych professor (who was a psych nurse for 20+ years) recommend this channel to me and now I’m hooked!
When I was a young kid (like six or seven or so) I had a horrendous babysitter (imagine an angry woman with bad hair, smokers voice and a cigarette in her mouth) that would pick me up from school until my mom could come get me, and she had a boy a year younger than me. While we were playing in his room one day he held up a little blue bead he found and asked me if he should put it in his nose, to which I said no to. Then he asked me again, and again, giggling, and I kept telling him no. It became clear through his incessant asking me if he should put the dumb bead in his dumb face that really, he wanted to put the bead in his nose, so to shut him up I sighed and said “fine”, and he did, then it got stuck so he panicked and ran to his mom to get it out. She came into the room and spanked me because he told her I told him to do it. And that’s how I learned that cowards seek permission to do dumb shit they know they shouldn’t do.
I had similar things happen with a sibling. I'd get blamed for when they injured themselves because they said I "told them to do it," which I never did. Kids can be extremely manipulative. Sorry to read that happened to you, but thanks for sharing.
@@julesm9498 I understand. They never really change, do they?
@Shan Nonymous That sounds like the old horror stories from the 60s . Rod Serling wrote. Horrible torture. That poor kid. I had an older sister like that also.
Wow, you must have been a juror on the Casey Anthony and OJ trials.
Different scenario; I had a cousin who pretended she had a gun in her hands, and forced me into our uncle’s sheep barn. She knew I was terrified of those huge gross sheep! I was six years old! She also chased me up the jungle gym in her backyard, and I fell off in my scramble of terror and passed out from getting the wind knocked out of me. My aunt and uncle had zero sympathy for me, since my Mom had passed me off to them for the summer after her mental breakdown from my Dad divorcing her. Fast forward 45 years; my Mom died and my cousin couldn’t attend the funeral ( in her same hometown) because her daughter was going to an important football game that night. She was already a bad apple ( or at least pretty disturbed) from a very young age. I’m an only child, but I don’t need relationships that badly! We don’t communicate at all any longer.
Dear Dr Grande, you are putting up so much content up and while I am glad for it I am starting to get worried, as I have an idea how much work this can be. Take care of yourself! :)
Ha-ha, find him bent over, but not with worry! That's the load of gold he's deservedly raking in on this channel. I'll bet other psychiatrists are kicking themselves that they didn't see the attraction of such a channel. "Me on RUclips? How low brow," they must've all told each other.
❤
Try and find content like his. You cannot. This stuff is off the chain💯
Pelagea ....Oh dear...don't you think he knows what he is doing? He is probably more stable than the majority of us.
He’s not even a psychiatrist.. he has a PhD in philosophy, giving him the Dr title.
TONYA HARDING the ice skater case is super interesting, could you take a look at this one in the future..THANKYOU Dr Grande
OOOOOOOO YES! TONYA HARDING TONYA HARDING!!!!!
bump
I agree - it would be very interesting to hear Doctor Grande's analysis of that case ☺
@@marceef5028 haha!
Ohhhhhhh, good one!!!!
"Not Diagnosing Anyone" Haha.. love the new merch!
OMG that IS cool!! 😄
Dr. Grande’s sense of humor is golden
Same!!!
😀 "Just speculating about what might be happening in a situation like this"
I want... 'I'm only speculating...' as well😁
This is the most logical and balanced view on this case I’ve ever seen. Most analysis of the situation is done from an emotional knee-jerk reaction.
So true!
Couldn’t agree more. So tough no matter which way you look at it. The primary thing that bothered me was her playing both her friends and Conrad’s family. Regardless, they were two people who clearly should not have been involved with one another.
It's only logical because it didnt happen to a woman. I'm sure you'd be screaming for the mans death if the roles were reversed
@@redditors_are_fggits9607 Don’t project your weirdness onto this discussion.
@@markmike7933 Emotions are great but judgements made based on them are problematic.
isn't age 8 young for an eating disorder? Goodness, what was going on in her home? And both young people felt they were destined for hell. How sad. Terrible mess.
I started thinking about suicide at age 6. Mental illness in children is real.
I used to babysit a girl at 4 with eatingdisorder
I'm so sorry to hear that, but you're right even babies can show signs of injury because of neglegt. So sad
I was suicidal at 7 and I started my eating disorder at 9. And I had really good parents 🤷🏻♀️
Unfortunately not now with the internet and TV....And lots of parents just let their kids watch anything...it plants thoughts. Got to watch their ear gate and eye gate..
Dr. Grande, can you explain the psychology of the "stage mother"?
I agree. They live through their children hoping for success and riches that they couldn’t do .
This would be super interesting!!
Yeah
I’m all for calling out Addison Rae’s mom and other moms like Myka Stauffer like more analysis of these narcissistic moms
That would be a laugh.!
damn so many videos lately. Huge fan, your dry humour gets me everytime.
He described today’s youth perfectly by saying their texting would often attempt to discuss complex and serious topics while under the context of a trivial conversation.
Perhaps that was always the case except no record was left when the discussion it was face to face or over telephone?
LOL has since taken on a new role of being a statement-softener. Friend of mine pointed that out to me years back and it's certainly true
They were just kids. Just what normal 18 year olds do. All he wanted someone his own age to hear him out because therapists weren't helping.
Wow, I think you're a bit misguided. You can unclench that fist around your pearls.
My father once told me "Never write anything that may seem controversial down." Then modern society socializes via texting.
@@tinaw.6178 I like Dorinda's saying better.
@@tinaw.6178 Much more memorable in that manner! 🤣
tina w. I had to google in order to find out the identity and significance of this Dorinda person. I still don’t understand the reference. I guess it would only make sense to people who watch “real housewives” shows.
That sounds like utter cowardice to me.
@@aethelyfel7573 When I was board, he'd tell me to go play on the freeway. You seem board.
This case fascinated me as someone who's been suicidal while talking with other suicidal people online.
Death looks like a GOOD option to someone who wants it, and the ones brave enough to do it are envied by the others wanting to.
Since Carter was suicidal herself, I believe, pressuring him could seem like the kind thing to do.
On the other hand, trying to get someone to die is immoral, and suicidal people typically sense this, and still try to stop others from going through with it, even if they are suicidal themselves.
I think she wanted the attention imo, I haven’t read much about it and I’m curious of this analysis but the way she offered help to his family and the way she acted. I got the impression she felt invisible and wanted the attention she was getting from being poor sad Romeo.
Thank you Dr. Grande for your content. It’s nice to have a competent and kind individual sharing their knowledge with us. Your work is always insightful and honest, and never sensationalized. Something often missing in true crime and/or mental health related content. It is very, very much appreciated. Keep up the phenomenal work!
Ikr?! The Doctor is like a breath of fresh air! 🌈
Sir your videos are good but really scared us,please give solution as well incase of treatment and incase of best solution...
Roy’s parents are just as accountable as carter, if not more so. Conrad’s dad doesn’t regret hitting him and the mom found a suicide site on Conrad’s computer and never followed up
He should do an analysis on them as well
Sounds like the father should shoulder more blame.
THANK YOU!!!!! So true
Agree, he must have been so lonely and didn't feel he had anyone else.
Um...I wouldn't say both parents are JUST as accountable. That's a ridiculous claim! Eyebrows is the culprit here but the dad is definitely to blame for some abuse. Yes, the mom should have done more but to hold her just as accountable as Eyebrows is ridiculous. You don't know the circumstances and you also don't know how much the mom did or didn't do. Let's end the assumptions here and just enjoy the video!
Of course she's a terrible person but I can't imagine what it would be like if someone threatened suicide to me constantly for years. That's also abusive
Or you could stop seeing and corresponding with them?
Well, we could speculate that they were both bonkers - both capable of random disturbing behavior. ( I am avoiding using the term "bat shit crazy" )
I would never think of telling someone to “get back into the truck” in the middle of a suicide attempt!
So someone is on the bridge and you think it’s okay to yell ‘jump’?!
@@sherunswithscissors - If it was a mentally ill person, it would probably be best to not yell at them at all
She really needed to get the hell out of that relationship. At some point another persons suicidal threats can become so detrimental that you really need outside help.
I agree. It's bizarre why she continued being a part of that.
Agreed, but it takes some maturity to realize this, and ... a real lack going on here. Too bad nobody else was around to step in.
She had her own mental health problems. It was covered at the start. People don't always make the best choices, especially kids.
She lost her mind and I can’t believe they aren’t throwing everyone who ever said kys in prison!
@@alwaysyouramanda She did far more than that. She knew he was actually going through with it and talked him into getting back into the car. Regardless, no one should ever say kys. I have never said kill yourself to anyone. Please stop normalizing this.
I am so glad you've talked about this case. It's really fascinating for me. I find her actions horrific but at the same time I know how one can get really angry and even hateful towards someone they were trying to help before. Sometimes it's better to just leave and stop being so invested than to let your frustration and own psychological problems lead to something like this.
You are definitely one of the things missing in my life. I was raised around intellectuals and now as an adult I spend no time with them. This I'd the dose of dry intellect i need in my life. Love it!
I hadn't looked at this case from an alternate perspective until watching this, so thank you.
I also liked your comments at the end about people telling her to commit suicide. Doesn't really help the cause if your attempting to advocate justice for the man who took his life.
Thank you for talking about this. My abusive ex would often use suicide threats as a manipulation tool. After this case, I was greatly concerned about getting blamed if he did, particularly as he is white and I am brown. Rationality is already warped. Anyway, I know that it is different now, but I still think that it was bizarre to convict her. There are so many abusive men who cause the suicide of their partners through not only encouragement, but also by creating an environment of immense fear. None of these men has ever been convicted of manslaughter.
❤️
Tldr
Except that this young man was deeply depressed and felt totally hopeless and distraught! Your comparison does not fit this situation! There is a huge difference between someone being manipulative and someone severely depressed, seeing no hope!
Yes, depressed people can be manipulative, some out of desperation, others deliberately! I don't believe this is the case here for either! He needed serious help pronto! He was in a deep hole he didn't know how to get out of!
I wish Dr Grande talked about the childhood and how much care and help he was given by his parents and doctors, etc!
By desperation, I mean from desperation of their extreme low mood! Not as manipulative.. to save a relationship, etc..
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. However, here, this was in the context of hundreds of other texts where she basically kept pushing him to kill himself. Stephanie Harlow reads dozens of text exchanges between them, and Michelle would just bring up pushing him to kill himself so frequently when he hadn't said anything about it. The ongoing encouragement in the many, many text messages to kill himself creates the context where even being on the phone and in contact with him all of that time in the car, which we know she was, and not calling for help, even if we can't prove she told him to get back in the car, warrants a conspiracy or manslaughter charge. It didn't seem that he was the one contacting her trying to get attention and threatening suicide, but rather that she wanted the attention and their conversations would sometimes turn to suicidal ideation, often at her urging.
I swear I never click on any video notification faster than yours Dr. Grande! Thank you!
Same here!!!!!!
Very Complex. There comes a time in a friendship/relationship where if one of the parties continues to attempt suicide and the partner has been trying to help them not go through with it, they finally break and begin to say ok maybe you'd be better off dead. I have lived this dynamic out myself. I know how a friend or lover can be a supportive person and after being worn down change and become a helper as such in doing the suicide. This is VERY difficult to analyze because there are too many factors at hand. I would say after what I went through she is innocent.
Thanks Dr Grande.
It's impossible to judge someone for how they grieve too, on both ends. The self-doubt it brings can be crippling and isolating. Unconditional love can be twisted sometimes and used to keep away reality. Experience teaches us to judge more clearly and react less to emotion.
Thank you for sharing. I agree with you.
@@tashastarling870 Hey Tasha. I Really appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for replying.
Enjoy your day.
If she was that tired of it than why not just break up.
@@leafyshempharvest2722 because things are NOT black and white.
@@kavitadeva they were not married.
Yay I asked for this one! 👍🏻
Edit: very interesting, I hadn’t thought of it quite like that. Her behavior after his death was very bizarre also.
That's a very interesting case. When I was a teen I had a boyfriend who cas constantly threatening about killing himself, but he used it as a way to mamipulate me. I was so stressed about it that at one point I told him to go ahead and do it. Thank God he didn't do anything, but I can understand a bit more how she was able to say such thing. I'm not defending her, that was a very immature thing to say.
Yes, when someone keeps threating something over and over and nothing you do or say helps then at some point you may get totally fed up and say something like she did (if she, in fact, said it), I'm not saying that was the right thing to do.
Had a now ex girlfriend who did the same as a way of manipulation. Its the most evil thing someone can say.
I know what you mean. I had a boyfriend who would didn’t accept our break up and kept calling me saying he was going to throw himself under a bus if I didn’t take him back. At the moment I had already been through so much emotional abuse from him, so much manipulation, I kept trying to stay away and he kept showing up at my house, stalking me at work and social events, that I simply had enough and told him to do whatever he wanted, but I wasn’t getting back together. He didn’t kill himself, but he only left me alone once he made up a story in his head that the reason for me leaving had to be infidelity. Now I know that I was in a very dangerous relationship with a covert narcissist, but back then there was not this kind of information, plus I was only a teenager. The worst is that people judge me and think he is such a wonderful, sensitive guy, who loved me very much; people have no idea how terrible and life sucking covert narcs are. I used to have nightmares in which he stalked me, I kept trying to escape and he would keep coming after me.
You tell the person you'll call 911, as they're saying they're a threat to themselves, and leave
i can understand saying it in the heat of the moment, fed up with the constant threats but she constantly brought it up to him. i read all the texts. she was asking him when he’s gonna do it and if he didn’t she said she was disappointed in him and he should try again. at one point she said, “oh do you think this is a good tweet to say after you’re dead?” “can you tweet something about me before you do it?” i think she enjoyed it.
Thank you for helping us cut through the strong emotional reactions that this case evokes and helping us to acknowledge the many many layers of tragedy, illness, and events that were going on under the surface. I’ve worked closely with multiple criminals and victims over the years regarding youth and adults with special needs. I have never had a case that was simple and clear cut - thank you for such a well-researched and objective exploration of this polarizing case!
As an atypically depressed person with a melancholic-ly depressed partner, it's hard enough *without* anyone constantly threatening suicide. I cant imagine how exhausting that would be. Not saying it's right what she did, but she was really just following his lead all along. You nailed it.
Agree
Well she didn't have any mental health supports to help her cope with this. I have my own issues and have great mental health supports and would of known to nip that in the bud pretty damn quick.
Nevertheless, she should have tried to get him help especially when she knew he was in the process of trying to kill himself.
this was in the context of hundreds of other texts where she basically kept pushing him to kill himself. Stephanie Harlow reads dozens of text exchanges between them, and Michelle would just bring up pushing him to kill himself so frequently when he hadn't said anything about it. The ongoing encouragement in the many, many text messages to kill himself creates the context where even being on the phone and in contact with him all of that time in the car, which we know she was, and not calling for help, even if we can't prove she told him to get back in the car, warrants a conspiracy or manslaughter charge. It didn't seem that he was the one contacting her trying to get attention and threatening suicide, but rather that she wanted the attention and their conversations would sometimes turn to suicidal ideation, often at her urging.
I remember this! Sooo sad and just terrible.
It's fine to fall on either side... As long as you understand this is actually a deeply complex and messy case with equally complicated implications regardless of the outcome.
I feel like I’m listening to Bob Ross with that soothing relaxing voice.😌
It never occurred to me, but you’re sooo right. Makes me like him even more. Bob Ross was a wonderful man.
Interesting analysis as always, Dr Grande! Thank you.
A confronting & tragic case.
I wonder, had they been local to each other.. visiting each others homes.. on occasion, greeting each others parents etc.. Would Carter have opted to speak to his mum.. or even her own!? Potentially making their relationship more 'real world ' as opposed to black & white letters on a screen!?
A timely reminder to us all... black & white letters can greatly impact & or influence another.
My thoughts are with his parents & loved ones..
the guy sounded pretty manipulative as well.
They both had mental health issues, two people with severe issues should never get together or even be friends probably (speaking from experience)
They were BOTH MENTALLY ILL. I have totally shifted my view of these sorts of cases. I used to have the typical American judgemental hatred which is rooted in the need for blame and vengeance. I now see things differently. We don't adequately address mental illness in America. We are trained to rain down hatred and rage on these people. I have shifted my point of view.
@Michelle Vesely The parents (understandably) need someone to blame. However, he had already attempted suicide, yet no one was monitoring his commuication....even clandestinely.....They had no idea that he was speaking DAILY about killing himself.
@@blackalien6873 , good point
@@blackalien6873 "typical American judgemental hatred" very much oof. pretty damn ignorant expression. being American has nothing to do with it. You still having some views to shift when it comes to the west. Tons of people aren't hateful or judgemental. Other countries that are much further behind are 10000x worse when it comes to mental illness. The judgemental hateful people are just dumb, dumb people are everywhere.
As a mother to a toddler, it truly breaks my heart to imagine for a even second my child wanting to kill himself someday. This is just so incredibly sad.
Given that, sadly, 25% of the population has suicidal ideation at some point in their lives, it’s an extremely common widespread issue.
I definitely attribute the rise in suicidal ideation to the rise of social media.
Seems like teen suicide (completed suicides) are on the rise since 2008, around the time social media sites really took off. Cyber bullying is a nasty new form of bullying that in many ways is worse than face-to-face bullying.
Excellent thoughts thanks for keeping the commentary dignified and respectful, a rare approach to emotive topics these days.
When I first read about this case it made me so ill I literally vomited. I could not get it out of my head for a month. There was something about reading the correspondence of that evening between the two that made me physically queasy. All I could see was Roy trying to find a dignified way out of his plan, only to be coerced by Carter to get back in the truck as to not disappoint her. After hearing your analysis, it definitely shed some much needed light on the subject and permitted a frame of reference for the part that Carter played in Roy's death. I was not aware that she discouraged him from killing himself for 2 years and I was not aware he attempted suicide 4 times in the past. It truly seems like much of this was a "fantasy" of sorts for both of them and it seems like they were both immature, simmering over with mental illness and fanciful ideas. Although I feel Carter did get off easy, I also understand that this is a complex case and that Carter, may not be the "devil" and just a very confused, mentally ill woman. She has the rest of her life to mature and ruminate about her role in Roy's suicide, and that is a life sentence indeed.
it does not matter if she started out supportive, she very quickly turned into someone who mocked and encouraged him to kill himself. that’s like saying an abusive partner was great and kind at first to excuse their abuse later in the relationship. i’m not saying that’s what you’re doing here but i don’t think we can say she was supportive of him when that support turned into manipulation.
@@yingyang2838 That is not what I was implying. I was not absolving her of any responsibility whatsoever. I said the documentary provided a context for the circumstances surrounding the relationship and Roy's suicide. It provided an explanation of the severity of mental illness that both Roy and Carter were experiencing. There is no doubt in my mind that Roy may have eventually killed himself with or without Carter at some point ...but Carter certainly facilitated it that night for certain. No one will ever know the full truth except for Carter. If you have not seen the documentary, I advise watching it.
@@yingyang2838 two years is quickly?
@@yingyang2838 But she wasn't his partner. They only saw each other in person a couple of times. And he was the one initially abusive as he kept telling her he was going to do it, then going off the grid for a couple of days to make her think he had done it causing her huge amounts of stress and worry, and getting pleasure from manipulating her emotions. Yes it was wrong what she did, but I don't think she was guilty of manslaughter. I think he would have done it anyway at some point.
@@xxyes8879 she knew he was suicidal and told him to get back in the car and finish the job. She’s a monster. If the roles were reversed do you think anyone would have sympathy for this guy? Absolutely not. I don’t think she should have gotten a manslaughter charge either but it’s because she’s a pretty little white blonde girl that people have sympathy for her and say things like you do like well he would have done it anyway. She shouldn’t have gotten a charge but is still a monster. If the roles were reversed he would still be in jail and nobody would have a bit of sympathy for him.
Dr Grandes analysis of this case was nothing short of pure brilliance, I really enjoyed this.
You are the absolute best, Dr Grande! I have heard other RUclipsrs talk about this case in much more subjective ways and have always taken nothing away. It never occurred to me that they were co-conspirators - each getting something from the other. The angel and devil on the shoulders was a great analogy! I had suggested you do this a couple of months ago and I'm so happy you got around to it. I knew that if _you_ talked about this case there'd be a take away for me. _"Would those who shouted 'kill yourself' to Michelle Carter be culpable too?"_ [paraphrased]. Boom!
You're right. We're often hateful, thoughtless people with strong opinions. This will hopefully remind me to make the most of *_kindness_* in the future, and others as well. Thanks a million for this! 🌹👍
This is so sad. My first love committed suicide. That pain never really leaves you. I wouldn’t wish the pain of working through that on anyone. Thank you for covering this tragedy.
Thanks for explaining this case, I always thought was something else behind the sensationalism presented as news headlines. I hope she gets some psychological help. And you keep carrying on such a good work! Love your channel! 🧠☺️
Interesting person for discussion...looking forward to this even though it's a sad dark topic
@upvote fairyI think it is a damaged person that can do something like encourage a person to get back into a car filled with carbon monoxide, someone either very disconnected, immature, or very sick and evil. I'm not sure about the morality or ethics, and I guess That we have to be very cautious when it comes to the LAW. Her not being capable in eyes of the law doesn't mean she doesn't have culpability in the sense of causation. Because she had the power to save as well as to be passive, or active in his f8nal destruction. I personally try to save lives. I have completed three suicide prevention courses because I want to not only be able to recognise someone on this type of distress and torment but to know how to act.
And it's not that it don't respect a person's right to self annihilate.
We can't project our description of PAIN upon someone. But if someone needs human connection and they are not getting it, how will they be able to feel any different than they do in the moments of desperation when they want to kill themselves. And I say kill themselves because.... it's often that... not wanting to die, bit to kill oneself! To annihilate that which is the omnipresence of dark, that lack of light, that lack of hope. You are not trying to solve someone s life problems in the moment you prevent them from moving forward with a plan to die, just to have them exist a day longer. Then a day longer.
So much to say, so few words that should be placed in a comment!!
"Culpable" ^ not capable :)
I can see this case easily covering an entire semester of law, sociology, or even philosophy. There is just so much to discuss here.
I especially like what Dr. Grande points out at the end, the irony of the crowd's cries.
Off to bed and listening to Dr. Grande... Perfect start into the weekend 😉🇮🇪☘ Thank you Dr. Grande!
You changed my point of view on this case. Thank you for always bringing an intelligent voice into these interesting topics, I look forward to them!
"...and I have a bomb." "Cool, five and five ones work?" Lol!
He really assumed we all have a strong will to live with that one lmao
Lol! I could see myself saying this. It's hard to be shocked by people these days & my adhd would have me concerned w the task part of the statement. The bomb part could click at anytime after...'here you go, $10... wait. What did you say?' 🤔
Was it a herpes bomb?
I haven't watched the whole video yet but when I first heard about this case it really hurt my heart for Conrad and his family. I've been suicidal before and related a lot to how he was feeling. I was also around the same age as him. I heavily relied on my friends for support. I know I wouldn't have recovered if it wasn't for them, and I feel like recovery for Conrad was 100% possible if it wasn't for her. I could see parts of myself in Conrad, including the parts that wanted to get better. I enjoy dissecting true crime and stuff, but this particular case hits a really tough spot for me.
I totally agree. This was a really tough one. I hope it gets out of your mind soon and you feel better. ❤️
Yep. If you don't suffer from depression you don't get it.
I’d like to hear an analysis of prisoners who “find God”. Are they sincerely having a new experience or does it just provide some respite from the boredom,, and perhaps leniency in the minds of judges, family and the public
I also wonder about this
@Random Dude 😂😂😂😂😂
Yes! I would love to hear about this too!
Jesus must be around every corner in prisons! All the convicts seem to find him there...
Isolation can bring about 'soul searching' journeys. Maybe they do 'find god' but it doesn't mean they aren't still flawed. You'd think by this time, we'd stop putting this god thing on a pedestal and value human life more.
One can lead a horse to water . But the responsibility ls in the hands of the beholder .
yes, but you can also push its face in the water which is cruel and the opposite of helpful.
This was one of the most intense analyses! It gave me goosebumps. Imagine to live in that kind of hell like both of them did.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS! I have never clicked so fast!
"...it appeared they had an unhealthy relationship"
Understatement of the year 😆
You're my favorite. Very well thought out video, as always.
Just watched the I love You, Now Die documentary- and your words are almost all my exact thoughts. Thank god because I didn't want to come write it all down.
Although- she also texted that he raped her. She was a compulsive liar through text. She could have made so much of her story up. She was delusional.
Also, he was most definitely highly active in his consistency of his suicidal ideation- having attempted and continuing to look up Google searches on how-to / I think his result could've very much ended the same. Saying she was the trigger isn't completely accurate. He could've just as well found another mentally unwell human and ended up in the same exact position. And his, "seeing the devil and the devil wanted him to kill people" text made me question Schizophrenia or another underlying condition irregardless.
A tough case for sure. Holy..
What a strange situation. Both of them are sad. I hope that she gets some effective counseling to become a caring human being.
You can't change a psychopath.
@@lf9341 u can though
@@officer_baitlyn A sociopath maybe. Not a psychopath.
Linda she’s not a psychopath
The most relaxing voice
what a great analysis, especially the part where you explain how she was embodying and "giving life" to his desire. I think she felt manipulated during her relationship, if it is true that he threatened to commit suicide multiple times. this is an enormous stress on one person, to worry constantly for the death of a loved one. I think something might have snapped inside her, and her words might have been an internal protest to the distress she had endured (maybe she felt like a trash bin for Roy negative thoughts and emotions). especially since she felt he "pretended" to do it, she might have felt "needlessly" abused, and her words might have been a provocation in response to this ("you keep abusing me with this threaths? ok, then i'll give you what you want, just do it"). and i think a part of her wanted him to realize, throughout her partecipation in this craziness, how all of this was really a crazy delirium. I am not justifying her actions, which are objectively deplorable, but i think its naive to think she's just some evil monster, things are usually more complicated than that.
its important to read the actual texts if you havent, it really is horrible and changes the way you view the case. she didnt 'just snap', it was relentless, over days and telling hhim how annd when to do it
Read the texts. It wasn't just once in a spur of the moment, she told him for months to "just do it" and even suggested the methods. Once, on an evening that they decided he would do it, he dropped off from conversation, she was panicking because she thought he killed himself without saying proper goodbye to her, not because she was distraught about him dying. When he later wrote that he just took some sleeping pills because he wanted to have a good night's sleep for the last time, she told him off. He would delay a few times more for different reasons, once admitting to her that he had second thoughts, and she berated him for it and told him to "just do it, don't think about it, just do it". To me, it's clear that he didn't really want to die, or at least he was scared to die. When he kept getting cold feet, she had a golden opportunity to make him cling to that fear and make him rethink it, but instead she kept telling him to "just do it". And ther's also the fact that on the day of his death, Conrad got scared when he felt the gas working and left the car, and she told him to get back in. She had already told one of her friends that he killed himself BEFORE he went to do it and she didn't want him to embarrass her.
I know that Conrad kept talking about suicide long before his death and that it can ve very harmful to the person on the other end, if he was an adult, I would go as far as calling it emotional abuse. But I don't think he realized how toxic this kind of behavior was, he was just pouring his heart to her and maybe subtly asking for help. I can relate to this a lot because I was also suicidal when I was depressed and there was one friend whom I could vent to and I also told him about how I wanted to kill myself, though not as extensively as Conrad. I only realized years later what I must have put him through by talking like that. Teenagers just don't always have enough experience or insight to know how they can unintebtionally harm someone with their words. And then there's depression that just distorts the way someone thinks.
But Michelle could have walked away. Instead she started enabling him and flat out bullying him into doing it, and it didn't last a day or a week, it went on for months. You'd think if he really wanted to die it wouldn't have taken her MONTHS to pressure him to do it.
I think Michelle needs help just as Conrad did and I don't think she's beyond rehabilitation. But 15 months is not nearly a long enough sentence and there should have been some kind of mandatory therapy attendance in place, preferably for life. As it stands now, I think she could still do it to someone else.
Never thought of that but there was one time when my mom threatened to kill herself and I snapped, "Do it then!I don't care!" Because she threatened it so often and the reason she was threatening it that time was because i was moving out after she had called me screaming to help her throw away her stuff because she was a hoarder and i commented a week before that she needed to decide what was worth keeping. She ripped up my only photo of a child i had lost in her demented rage
@@Shirafune161 I agree with pretty much everything you said. It's one thing if it was an emotional outburst confined to one moment but this went on for MONTHS and she even helped plan his suicide. Dealing with a suicidal partner can be mentally draining and traumatizing but most people who cannot handle it decide to leave the relationship. Carter chose a much more morbid and immoral way of ending their relationship and cutting him out of her life.
I understand what she must have gone through but I can't bring myself to sympathize with Carter because she didn't need to resort to such an evil act.
@@scootdude12 If you've read all the texts,you'll have seen how relentless he was texting day in day out about what he wanted to do and she told him for 2 years straight not to. He was emotionally and mentally manipulative and abusive to her. You can't take part of a story and twist it to suit your narrative.
that face in the thumbnail is hilarious. I have seen it all over and it is funny he used that picture for his video! 😄
You truly changed my thoughts on this case. Thank you for helping me understand this tragedy more clearly.❤️
I would have told his parents about his intentions, the ball would’ve been in their court. If she was so tired of his need for attention, she should’ve walked our of his life.Period.
I just struggle with this because we know his home life was pretty screwed up. His dad had been arrested for beating him and apparently his mom didn’t care, or at least didn’t say anything, when she saw that he left a website open about how to kill yourself on his computer. He also made it very clear to her in his texts that he didn’t want her to tell anyone. Could he still be alive today if she had gone against his wishes and gotten him help? Maybe. But he could have also felt that the person he seemed to care the most about betrayed him and just made an already toxic family life worse, and been driven to suicide, or even deeper depression. This case is such a tough one for me it honestly hurts my head.
I know, right. People feeling sorry for her baffles my mind. Even if she couldn't put up with his suicide threats she didn't have to give him a nudge. I've read their entire communication and more than once he implied he can't go trough with the suicide and she pushed him to it saying she's disappointed in him. I don't think she just enjoyed the attention from this, I also think she likes the high from taking someone else's life without actually pulling the trigger.
This is a monstrous tragedy and I really can’t see a way around finding her actions to be totally unconscionable. But you did open my mind a bit by pointing out that Romeo and Juliet stupidity.Really Dr. Grande you’re the only person who can make me feel like I don’t have an ope n mind. I’m a pretty much pathological empath. This is a very difficult case. You have convinced me I should be less judgmental about her contribution to what happened. You are really a great doctor. Thank you for handling these cases so carefully
Great analysis!
On the question as to whether people shouting at Carter to kill herself would be committing the same crime, I’d say the main difference there is the absence of the pre existing relationship. She wasn’t in the act of killing herself or known to be suicidal when people shouted that at her.
I’d imagine people shouting that at her would be doing it to show her what it feels like to hear other people think she’d be better off dead. They certainly couldn’t really be thinking she’d actually just do what they said.
Whereas she *knew* her “friend” was suicidal. She knew he had got to a place where he was actually going through with it and she still encouraged him to carry it out.
That has to be more reprehensible because of the knowledge and foresight involved. She knew her words were likely to be acted on.
Dr Grande, what would be your advice for someone who was in a situation like Carter where her boyfriend figure constantly talked about suicide yet refused to seek professional treatment? I imagine that the manipulation of mental health and unfair boundaries is sadly quite common. Thoughts? 🤔
Contact local law enforcement. Speak to parents if they are a minor. Child services is also another option. In these situations it is best to have professionals handle it to promote safety.
Know that it is never your job to save them and it is best to have professionals involved.
Call his family for crying out loud?
I have watched your channel now for at least a year or two. I love Psychology and I really enjoy what you do here. I agree with you on some things, maybe not so much at other times... C'est la vie... This was probably my favorite of all of your videos I've seen. That was a fascinating analysis and clearly well researched and thought out. I kept thinking "wow, he really dug into this and is spot on" among other things. For whatever it's worth from one like myself, I really enjoy your channel and I think people can learn a lot about critical thinking and human nature from you. Well done, thank you for what you do.
Dr grande is the best!! He is putting out tons of great content!! 👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks for being the only one on the internet who actually read all the messages and explains the whole story
I’ve dealt with suicidal thoughts since six years ago. To have someone lean their life on you is extraordinary stressful to citizens that have no idea what to do - let alone for a paid licensed counselor.
Any stress is awful when you already have dark thoughts/feelings, when someone makes you feel responsible for their life too it does get to be overwhelming.
Fantastic critical analysis including the legal and ethical aspects of a complex case.
You knocked this one out of the park, Dr. Grande! Amazing❤
Could this girl not speak to her parents; where the F were Roy's parents...?
I read a lot of the text messages back when the trial was going on, I believe Roy said something to Carter along the lines of “the only way I could ever hate you is if you told someone”. Roy’s parents seemed kind of checked out from what I recall, and I believe his dad beat him. But his parents considered Michelle Carter 100% responsible for his death. They obviously knew about his past suicide attempts but had convinced themselves he was doing better.
Elizabeth Ann Yep...a lot of denial on his parents’ part. They have to believe Michelle is evil and drove him to it...in reality there was a lot more going on. The parents were/are in absolute denial.
Not everyone has a good relationship to their parents
SaurusRahwr We understand that...and that’s what we’re saying...the fact that he had little to no people in his life to count on, like his parents, played FAR more of a role in his suicide than Michelle ever did IMO.
Teens don't snitch. Against teen code
Brilliant and as always totally impartial breakdown and analysis of an extremely complicated case. The HBO doc does a great job and covers a ton that i for one had never read or heard, and Dr. Grande takes all that a giant step further in shedding light with his expertise. Made me wish yet again he'd been a consultant on this case.
The eyebrows are the giveaway, Dr. Grande. It’s all in the eyebrows.
100 percent
Wow Dr. Grande. I had my mind all made up about this one but you really shined a light on both sides of the case. Great job!
tysm for this Dr. Grande, unfortunately i was 1 of the ppl who thought michelle carter was just a cold hearted person... i had no clue of her own mental/emotional disturbances, i thought they went to school together 🤦🏽♀️ as always, thx again for the enlightenment 🤗
just because someone has mental issues does not make them any less of a cold hearted person. you need to actually read the text messages instead of listening to one persons review of a documentary made to make her look more sympathetic.
I have been waiting for this for a while now.
Thank you for the wonderful analysis
This analysis seems especially insightful and inspires excellent critical thinking!
Dr. Grande always has the most nuanced, levelheaded takes. I love it when he makes me stop and question my own inclinations.
This story is so disturbing, it breaks me whenever I hear about it...I just can’t stand her.
Hope you’re having a good day, Doc! ✨💛✨
sorry to hear about your chronic pain and difficultly walking...that was straight up one of the best vids i have ever seen on this platform...your mind is amazing, especially since it seems grounded in empathy and compassion.
WHO ?!
After 50+ videos of Dr. Grande
**Me watching a show on TV on unsolved mysteries***
Me: "You know according to the 5 personality traits as I remember them after the acronym OCEAN....the perpetrator probably.... ...." Hahaha. Love your educational channel!
Very fascinating insight into how Carter switched over to being supportive of his awful plan! I'd only ever considered the attention by proxy aspect which would've be exceptionally manipulative, but you really summed up how she slowly swiched to supporting him without her feeling like a badguy for it. It was a horrible thing to do, no excuse, but the "How" and "why" is super fascinating. Brilliant doctor, thank you!!
Wooo boy I’ve been watching your videos all day, and your new one showed up right on time because I was running out of things to watch lmao. Love ya lots Dr. Grande. Hope you’re taking care!!! P.S. Video idea: Would you do a MH&P analysis on “Donnie Darko” (2001)? What does Donnie appear to suffer from? How do you gauge his behavior and how the people around him reacted i.e. his parents seeking help? What lessons can we take from the film on the topic of mental health? Thank you!
I was fascinated by that movie(Donnie Darko) and watch it from time to time to this day, I would also really enjoy your analysis on it@Dr. Grande. Regardless of what you cover I always look forward to it greatly.
Kittra agreed! 🥰
Would absolutely love to see this, The film itself is so unique but I've always felt it left more questions than answers in terms of Donnie's mindset
You just made me look at this case in a deeper way. I always love to see your perspectives 🖤
This is one of the more tragic cases I’ve heard of. Two lonely, isolated young people connect based on their shared insecurities…it sounds like he began using her as his mental health counselor, and she became overwhelmed and couldn’t handle the constant demand on her emotions to prop him up. The relationship had never been “real” to her, and the strange atmosphere of escapism and fantasy that is the internet could easily account for her loss of perspective.
Dr. Grande’s analysis of the Gypsy Rose Blanchard got me hooked on this channel- now again I get to delight in the nuance and clarity in how Dr. G explains the law’s limitations when human behavior is so complex. In a good way, his work produces satisfaction and a way to tolerate ambiguity with greater ease.
well said!
I want to tell stories about my mental illness and my experiences with suicidal thoughts and how it was personally helpful, in my case. it's pointless to share it here (and ask if you want....I understand how people will think im trying to get people to ask. I'm not. I'm also not going to share anything here) because this is a RUclips comment section.
RUclips comment sections can be great places for learning and growth ....but, usually they are cancer. I've heard stories on here that it still dont buy....ones I didnt think were true but was given evidence proving me wrong....and have shared my personal experiences many times, only to be called a liar or attention seeker. it's not hurtful, it's just a sad waste of time.
there is, however, a ton to be learned about in this video and it's a topic very close to my heart. I appreciate your honest and fair opinion on the matter! most seems afraid to address it at all. suicide....its one of the word our society seems blow out of proportion.
thank you for the excellent content!
Kanda panda. You are very worthy. Your thoughts are valued. Sharing your story might even help one person. That alone is amazing. Thank you for your post!
This really was a more nuanced case than I'd originally heard.
the questions you leave us with in the end are things I'll have to consider further.
I love the new merch Doc! Can we expect to see them in the shirt rotation? 🤣
I really appreciated your take on the idea that she may have lied to her friend about telling Conrad to get back in the truck. That is something I rarely hear anyone bring up, but that I’ve thought from the beginning as far as the extent of her lies versus reality. She would say the most desperate things for attention to these girlfriends she was texting and I think it is not unreasonable at all to think she didn’t actually tell him to get back in the truck, but rather fabricated this in order to gain attention from the friend she was texting.
Thank you for this video!
I just ordered that Mug "Not diagnosing anyone...: Love that! I can'wait to get it.
@Yez Kex I cannot wait to get that mug! and the part where the eyeglasses are!
That's great
Always appreciate and gain new perspective from your insightful and objective presentations of emotionally charged and polarizing court cases.
As an MSW, your slogan really resonates with my soul 😂
Also, the trauma bonding between these two was severely real
You helped me to see this case in a different light. Thanks for making my view a little more nuanced.
I really like your question about the guilt of the court spectators who were yelling at her to kill herself...something to think about...great video, as always 💖👍🏼💖
only if they kept doing it consistently five times a day for years..THAT'S the difference..saying something once in the heat of the moment is different than repeating it like a mantra for years on end
Where did you hear that? It was only in the last week of his life that she encouraged him to do it. I must look to see how long the trial went on for, but my guess is that I bet those spectators told her to kill herself more times than she told Conrad Roy to...
Most insightful and compassionate take on this case I have seen. Bravo!
Man this was a perfectly explained and I think most reasonable point of view about their mental condition.
This is the most brilliant analysis I have seen in a long time. Fantastic work Dr. Grande!
thought provoking especially the point about the onlookers yelling to her to kill herself such a good point, fascinating thank you so much Dr. Grande
Not a comment on this subject specifically, but your videos are so useful for recognising malignant traits in others in real life; covert narcissists, especially!
Imagine someone you care about threatening suicide for 2 years straight. Most healthy individuals are not equipped to deal with that at all, let alone mentally ill ones. I do think that in some bizarre way, she thought that she was doing what's best for him by encouraging him to commit suicide since his condition wasn't improving and he was only going to continue suffering from her perspective. Regardless, while obviously no one should be encouraging anyone to commit suicide in any way, I do firmly believe that, in the end, suicide is one's own decision. While others might bear a moral responsibility for someone's suicide due to their words, that responsibility shouldn't be criminal.
I dont agree, she shouldn't have encouraged him, period. If it's on him, then he should have done it by himself, but it wasn't by himself, she was encouraging him.
Have we ever imprisoned someone with mental problems who told others to commit a crime? Charles Manson! The Manson family didn’t have to listen to him, but they did and we still locked his ass up. Words have a profound effect on people.
@@GC-pq6vm Manson urged people to commit murder which is a crime. As Dr Grande mentioned in the video, suicide is not a crime, and I think that's the main distinction. I do think that things aren't generally black and white, and there are probably some cases where I would agree that someone should be charged for urging another to commit suicide, but this case isn't it in my opinion, especially since the girl in question had to endure her boyfriend threatening suicide for 2 years straight which is very abusive and traumatic.
magicalgirl yes, I agree, not an accurate comparison. But saying he did it on his own free will and what she said shouldn’t have mattered is not exactly the case. She should’ve told the family members and left him alone. I can understand his constant threats got emotionally taxing on her but she never should’ve told him to do it when he became hesitant.
@@GC-pq6vm I agree with you, they both needed help, and what she did was definitely wrong, I'm just not sure to what degree we can prosecute behavior like this. If I make a dumb post online that goes viral and a few people tell me to kill myself, should they be prosecuted criminally? If we make it so that this is criminal behavior, then people should be prosecuted for attempted murder even if I don't commit suicide. What if I am terribly depressed and someone calls me mad ugly which ends up being the final straw for me? If an abuser constantly threatens with suicide, and finally one time his victim tells him to do it and the abuser actually does, should the victim be prosecuted? A lot of people might say no, the victim isn't guilty, so when does the victim become guilty? If she says it twice, three times? Obviously, I would say that a cult leader should be prosecuted if he gets 100 of his members to kill themselves because not only is that an atrocious crime, but also because he, as a leader, is in a clear position of power over the members, but where do we draw the line for other cases? I don't have these answers honestly, but I do believe that people are responsible for their own actions, and for this case that applies because Michelle had an equal relationship with Conrad (she was not his boss, teacher, abuser or anything like that) which is why I hold my current position. Also, Michelle was 17 at the time, which should be taken into an account.
I did this case in my podcast during its first episode. Though I knew of this case prior and had seen documentaries, watching your analysis and studying carefully the details of the case and of the two young people, my heart broke. There is so much we dont understand and so much we take for granted or as not important. Thank you for your amazing work.