Can Copper Weld into Steel Damascus?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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Alec Steele Blacksmith 2022
Alec I dare you to make a sword without any power tools
OMGGG YESSS🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩
That's definitely what I'm interested in seeing.
Nice to see you again.
Anyone keeping track of this request?
Relatively easy for Alec to knock up I bet but would be a good videl
He did it four years ago with his 8 part "Back to Basics" series, though that was just a small knife.
Awesome video guys! I appreciate the shout out. That stuff can definitely be tricky!
Could you do a video experiment where you pulverize diamonds into dust and mix them with a high carbon steel either by making the steel molten and dumping the diamond dust in or by getting it very hot and then folding in the diamond dust repeatedly. Then use the diamond steel as the center of a San Mai billet and for the outside layer use regular damascus. Make a murasamune with it or any type of Japanese samurai swords will work too.
When you do anything like this you have to treat the copper as a liquid than metal cause of its mailability at working temp for steel. Either you finish out the metal to a rough final dimension and thickness then layer the copper in and seal weld and do finishing smush and then do the rest in grinding.. Or.. you do a finishing can meaning the material you want will be the can including the ends that lay over to seal will be the material you want. Then you can forge it out and even twist but it has to stay a capped form until its finished out and you start to grind to finish. The cap can be really thin like 1/8 inch thick and maybe can get away with 1/16 thick cap. Its all finishing grinding or milling to shape that has to be done with this type of metal working.
On that cracked steel, you could have cut and ground along the cracks resulting in a diamond shape, stacked and welded in an upset fashion, then flattened. Along an axis perpendicular to the axis of the stack.
What would happen if you tried doing the twist with the jacket on, and a little bit at a time. Heat, twist, forge, heat, twist, forge. Do that like 10 times and I think you'd end up with a great twist going all the way through. Just make sure that the thing starts off thick enough that you can pop it in the lathe to get rid of the twisted casing and have enough core left over.
Its nice to see you back at your main shop
Sams hair is glorious
@AlecSteele What if instead of twisting it as fast do a slow partial turn, and let it cool it, then heat it back up and continue doing partial turns until you get a full rotation so the integrity isn't comprised?
You know what we want.
More weapons!
Tomahawk might look nice.
BUT
a medievil long sword would look sick!
it's brazing - technically once you make your steel boat, so long as the opening is at the top, you can fully melt the copper and let it cool. The copper as a liquid will fill every crevice and void without the need to hit it (so use copper shims in the final thickness you want from the start). You can also make patterns in the copper by gouging the steel before melting it in place (giving you lines or waves of copper).
After reading this, I no longer feel the need to watch the video 😂
After reading this I realized I'm subscribed to Tyrell Knife Works. This process isn't new, it's been done.
@@gatekeeper5418 But it's not about being a new process, it's about Alec exploring something that is new to him.
I feel it's similar to 80's horror movies. Different iterations and representation of a similar concept. But everyone loves those cheesy ass movies 😆
@@gatekeeper5418 this would technically be a version of modern mokume gane and since it uses the original process to create mokme gane (forging a hot billet of dissimilar metals into a laminate using hammers and a non temperature controlled furnace) the process is well out of copyrightable phase thus literally anyone can do this. (current copyright law only protects the life of the orginal inventor plus 70 years(thank disney co for this LUL), as the process used to make this is the mokume gane process it's not uniqe or original to Tyrell Knife Works and thus only subject to the original copyright which would for copper-steel bonding actually belong to Tiffany co if anyone from the modern era from their experiments in the 1870's which are also out of copyright and yes one of the attempted laminates was steel to copper which succeeded) any and all copyright or originality claims towards mokume gane have failed in the modern court system and most companies try to trick people into settling out of court. side note this is also why Alec was able to try to make titanium damascus without worrying about getting sued as he was using traditional methods to do so(which are also ancient in origin and thus public domain.)
Technically soldering. Brazing requires the use of brass based alloys on dissimilar metals. It’s a sub division of soldering.
I've seen a few of these non-ferrous metal damascus videos, and something I have not seen, is attempting to increase the melt temperature of the copper, by alloying it first. IIRC Chromium+ Niobium can increase the melt temperature of the copper, and it might not lose it's coppery luster.
I ... don't think you need much maybe 5% by weight of each? But... like I'm no metallurgist, so... YMMV!
(Might be something worth looking up.)
If you alloy the copper with Chromium and Niobium it no longer would be copper. It would be a Bronze or brass like compound. I’m not a professional but I have taken some college courses in metallurgy.
@@tjboylan20 well, I'm fairly certain bronze and brass are specific copper alloys, and as such you could only call what OP mentioned a copper alloy, or potentially a different name if it has a specific one.
ive used cupronickel to good effect. it has been my go to choice since about 2019
SuccesFully alloy it with ~10% silver and ~3% palladium and you got silver palladium copper which melts at ~1430°c and will annihilate your savings if you buy more than some grams
I meant ~30% palladium....
I need to see Will & Sam next to each other. Close your eyes and they sound the same.
With the Dark Steele Color and the Copper "vein" it would be a perfect knife, if you put a Handle out of Some sort of Dark Wood on it it would look awesome
Vein; that's it! Now do it with gold!
@@DrewskisBrews the poor man’s gold is brass I’ll try it with brass
Let's see a bog oak dagger
@@tjboylan20 see
Ok
If you need inspiration, check out Dennis on the Tyrell Knifeworks channel or Baker forge and tool are rocking it. They use the copper that has a crimson hue. They call it tiger Damascus it think
So in a former life we used explosively welded stainless steel and copper to make heat exchangers…
you pack the billets of stainless and copper in high explosive and set it off and the high pressures fuses the dissimilar metals together.
The bond was tight enough to be leak tight to superfluid helium.
I wonder if that method would work with mokuTi or titanum mokumegane I'd immagine there's plenty of pressure and no atmosphere to oxidize the titanium rapidly and from an engineering perspective should work provided the explosive operated at sufficient pressures rapidly enough.
Quick google search found a supplier doing titanium clad steel made by explosive welding.
Course it’s not really the same as a Damascus like process..
It’s a cool process though and it helped us eliminate a tricky joint (if I remember correctly - it was a while ago now)
Cody's Lab did this
I happen to work in a factory that produces heat exchangers and we do the exact same thing but without explosions lol
6:21 That's exactly what I was afraid would happen. That molten copper squirting across the shop is extremely dangerous. But I guess you can't make anything cool with some third degree burns...
When I did mokume I dipped the metal into barrier flux, bound them all together in a stack and brought them up to temperature with a tort in a darkened room. As soon as I noticed any indication of that gooeyness around the copper edges I would remove the torch and give it a slight tap between two very flat surfaces. Rinse and repeat a couple times and then treat it like a Billet of material as normal
Is there a website I can check out or something? That sounds pretty sweet
The videos have gotten so short would like to see some longer bigger projects these videos are awesome
That would make for a great watch dial. No strength needed, all visual splendor.
There have been a fair few of copper dial watches, but I don't know of any with this combo. They did a few with damascus in the bracelets, but not ina dial. Could be a winner!
Quick answer: yes.
Copper is a problem contaminant in steel recycling because it's virtually impossible to separate once its been incorporated. Copper in steel generally follows Hume Rotheroy rules which strongly suggests the ability to form solid solutions. Unfortunately, the peoperties of Copper in steel tend to be undesirable. Nickle is similar, but gives better corrosion properties than copper without sacraficing microstructural integrity as much.
You'll need to be wary of the fact that martinsitic phases can't be generated in nonferrous alloys, so any form of heating will soften the supplemental metal. To retain blade strength it may be best to peen the edge instead of relying exclusively on heat treating.
One incredible idea I heard for the mix of Mokume-Gane (multiple different non-ferrous metals forged together like damascus) with steel was to make a knife or sword with a steel edge embedded into a Mokume-Gane jacket. You can then grind and etch them so that it looks like the steel is emerging from a wood grain or any other pattern. SUPER pretty
Bit of a misnomer here any dissimilar metals forged together qualify as mokume gane adding ferrous metals just makes modern mokume gane instead of ancient. Technically the laminating technique used to make katanas back in the day would also qualify as low(core) and high(edge) carbon steel are dissimilar. It's the entire reason that a patent on "damascus" steel forging techniques is indefensible and cannot be used in us courts due to the technique already existing.
I think what you'd like in more precise terms is traditional nickle/copper mokume backing on a blade steel edge and that's very doable but also VERY expensive. The blade steel would already have to be mostly drawn out same with the traditional mokume backing preferably via the standard rolling technique. Both heated and plenty of low temp copper safe flux used to fuse the spine on. I think this would make for an interesting project piece for the record.
I would love to see bowie knife, a short Japanese knife that can be carried. Also a canister Damascus made from octagonal stock and copper.
Notification squad
Tog make kitchen knives that have a vein of copper running through the blades. They look fantastic, though are far from cheap enough for the "average consumer" IMO.
never been this early
The steel jackets seemed like a pretty sweet idea. Maybe going for a full canister damascus could be cool.
youd likely get molten copper squorting out of a crack, right in someones face
I would like to order a steel jacket in size 15 neck. Medium, slim and short.
this is a fantastic Idea just need to watch where the hole in the canister is drilled so as not to point it at the smith or anything important LOL. I've seen pretty good results from can damascus using copper as one of the materials so I'm looking forward to it If alec is willing to try.
@@HunterThinker would you like 3/4, 1/2 or full sleeve?
It is very cool when done properly but neither one of them did look up cumascus
How does it feel being in the Montana shop? I had a job between two locations and it would be some time from one to the other, and I found when I got to the 'new' location, I would feel a bit out of sorts, like I didn't belong there or that I was in the way of everyone. You own the shop so maybe you don't feel that way, but I was wondering if you experienced anything like that going from UK to Montana.
Also make a Damascus Bowie with that copper/Damascus billet
A handguard for a sword or a dagger with that piece would look gorgeous.
Cool idea of twisting it. Ive never thought of trying that. Ive had a few successful tries using it in Go Mais. All you have to do is make sure the weld is air tight all the way around and forging it out. Then do a stock removal. Good luck.
You should do a dagger of some sort with the copper infused damascus
Happy to see you back in Montana Alec. Hope all is going well after I am sure a long plane trip and drive back to your greatest shop. I started watching your channel when you were still on Barker street. And Sam was helping you do videos. The Montana shop is definitely the most impressive.
The Ideal Temperature for forging CU Mai (Copper Damascus) is under 1800 F give, just barely red. I'd like to see you turn the billet into a Harpoon Point Hunting Knife with a Hidden Tang, or perhaps a Bowie if you have enough material to make one.
How much work did it take to have your dog as obedient as it is. Like how many classes or how much you did yourself
All the successful copper Damascus I’ve seen has been done by forging the steel to size, completely sealing in the copper with welds/sheet metal and ground to shape.
Hey alec what about milling groove between steel an drop the copper inside the groove.. then weld together so the copper cannot burst so easily out
I don't know if you have enough for a full sword of the stuff but it could make for an awesome hilt. Then use the copper zinc demascus for the pommel and make the sword out of something else. I'd say try for silver/steel demascus but that's wayyyyy too expensive
I have made two knives out of Cu- Mai and currently working on my third, the best way I have found is to weld all the way around and keep the forge below 1800 F
sweet! Do you sell your knives!? I'd love to buy a smaller copper infused Damascus knife for field dressing deer.
@@strikeforcek9149 did you have any luck mate?
@@dragonwing4ever nope, no luck or response. Lol
I'm still super interested in a custom piece for field dressing deer though, haha.
@@strikeforcek9149 thought i replied to this already but who knows, i might be able to help you out there mate
@@dragonwing4ever awesome! Do you have an email or something I can contact you through?
Since bronze is tin and copper , and copper was discovered in Mesopotamia, I would make a Roman bronze sword in damascus and copper. If you could get the copper showing only in the fuller, that would be a sight to be seen.
Based on your experiment, you should be able to meld steel with titanium in a Damascus style, thusly allowing for a severely reduced weight yet still retaining strength. Just an idea.
Yeah its called timascus it's already a thing 😁😁
the problem is the titanium creates titanium dioxide, a weld inhibitor.
i did a honsanmai billet a while back that failed due to VERY small amounts of air getting into the billet at some point. also the thermal conductivity and thermal dynamic of the ti come into play... ti is a weird animal.
we also need to think about heat treatment post forging and grinding... ive gone so far as to attempt a canister billet that was heat treated... then grind it all into a final shape.
We NEED a Steel vs. Stelter for this!!! Gotta make a sword-breaker with it too!!
Will *Sword-Breaker* Stelter.
I just watched that series for the 5th time in 3 years the other day. I felt so bad for Will when it snapped.
So great seeing Alec home. Hopefully it’s for a while, but we will see.
Make something different from the norm, make a butter 🧈 knife to spread well, butter. It won't have to be sharpened and the softer copper won't be under stress.
Speaking of Damascus: Have you ever considered making Wootz? That is, the original, not pattern welded stuff?
They tried but since they used a power hammer to try and combine the I can't remember what it's called the bloom to consolidate the bloom it instead crumbled into dust. I should have been using something like a wooden stump and light taps from a hammer a sledgehammer to consolidate it.
@@AdmiralStoicRum That is not Wootz
@@thedausthed omg i had a brain fart!
Lol
Its a crucible thing lol my bad
Back in the USA for 1 week and already got your fake American accent back, nooooooo!
alec is fake as they come..
Back on watching, something about a Brit abroad making his life draws me to this channel far more than when Alex is at home in the UK
The channel Tyrell Knifeworks make beautiful copper damascus blades :D
What would 1 million layers of copper-steel damascus look like? That would be crazy!
It would probably just look like one color because the layers were so thin if it were even possible but they squeeze a bit of copper out on every heat. Probably not as impressive as you'd think.
It wouldn't be impressive.
Evan and Katelyn did a ~1mil layer experience with rainbow plasticine.
It turned to "brown" at about half way through their restacks. Iirc, looked its best around the 25000 layer restack.
Copper and Steel would be great for a plates on a leather gauntlet. Check out Adam Savages ones for reference.
A burl wood handled hunting/skinning knife with a gut hook done from this infusion would be amazing.
My 7yr son and I think a throwing weapon would be cool. Like a tomahawk or dagger.
Is making rain stainless steel and high carbon steel Damascus pattern possible and if so could you let it rust
I would be cool if you did this again with thick copper wire instead of sheets of copper
I'm pretty sure that mustache sticker is a protector from a nose waxing kit lol
Seeing you in your Texas shop gives my joy to no end. Glad your back, hope to see all the new things you have up your sleeves.
His shop is in Montana...
@alecsteele Welcome to the world of copper laminates 🤘🏽
This guy right here is where I get mine!
Mmm steel and copper hot pockets, my favourite lunch.
id say between the aesthetic that the copper brings to the damascus and the origins of Damascus itself maybe make a ornate style middle eastern dagger or short sword if there is enough material. i would personally suggest either a Janbiya dagger or a yataghan
Great video guys glad too see your back on this side of the pond. Keep up the amazing work
It was never damascus. Can you give it a propper name?
try using copper dust in the Damascus it might twist better.
It's summer time, time to forge up some new grilling empliments
Copper will fuse well with nickel, and nickel will fuse well with iron. I'd like to see that layer stack-order, and forged at barely more than a cherry red heat.
The relative stiffnesses of metals is not linear with temperature. Using a lower temperature will mean that copper, nickel, and iron will be closer to each other in stiffness (creep coefficients are key here) so you won't end up with particular layers squishing way more than others.
Pattern welding. Thats not damascus.
coaster for drinks it just looks so cool having two opposite metals forge in one it really has a nice color contrast
Alec, You had the right thought when you referred to the copper as "Adhesive" because the melting temp is so much lower than steel the best you are going to get is LAYERS of steel adhered to LAYERS of copper which if done artistically is very cool.
How does it feel to be home buddy. In your shop, with all your tools, and memories. I'm so glad you're back, I hope you guys stay. We miss your videos in this shop
Make a hoof trimmer for goat out of Copper Damascus.
Stainless and high carbon steel Damascus
to reduce the odds of separation when force is applied (torsion being among the more extreme kinds of force you could try lol) it could help to keep the billet in the forge for an extended period of time. given the pretty high degree of solubility of copper in steel, the longer time window should result in greater diffusion and therefore better alloying in the boundary regions, providing a stronger bond than just mechanically smushing the layers together
I cant help but think Sam is Will with a wig on, lol they talk exactly the same, have the same mannerisms, and are great at smashing metal lol
Делай поставки через никель.
make a very expensive bottle opener.
Alec you need to make another knife
Ever since i saw this on another channel I have been wanting to see you try it. Cant wait to see what you come up with!
Nice going Alec and Sam 👍 Now I might be an incredible idiot for asking... But twisting it doesn't work... What about rolling it as a jellyroll damascusbar? Wouldn't that make the forces put on the copper be spread more evenly over the surface that's been stuck together?
By the way, maybe a hybrid blade between a typical US blade and a typical blade from the UK??
earlyyy
Ive seen a lot of success sandwiching the copper and steel with nickel in-between
For example
Damascus
nickel
copper
nickel
high carbon steel
nickel
Copper
Nickel
damascus
You end up with a blade that has a good retaining edge and then the nickel helps glue the copper to the damascus steel outer and high carbon center.
You'll want to work it at a much lower temperature I think, or at least *by hand* because the power hammer hits it too hard across the entire surface. Whatever you do the copper will still move more than the steel, but if you're moving less at once you might be able to deal with it and avoid squirting molten copper across the shop while you shape the piece. Definitely no more folding or twisting, but a mild curve or wavy pattern may be possible. Alternatively, you could go straight to the grinder and make a really cool-looking paperweight or shelf piece, or even use it as the handle for a sword or dagger. Maybe a letter opener?
Oh please turn it into a Bowie
could you make the initial weld by heating the copper and steel separately so the copper isn't so molten and laying them together while hot?
I would like to make a Tamahawk
I’m no blacksmith but it seems like maybe a canister damascus would work out in this case? Some little wire offcuts would blend in but I feel like the small bits vs the big plates of copper would retain structural integrity? Maybe? Idk…
I’d try to see how thick you can get that copper layer before it stairs too get too hard to fuse. And then see how much you can hot cut and fold it!
Gold member...but copper
Copper Damascus makes for a gorgeous blade👌
Love to see new content! Fosho
drop tip hunting knife
Tyrellknives does a lot of copper in Damascus it’s mesmerising to watch
But it’s awesome you’re back in Montana & great seeing you creating again
I bet it’d be easier with copper nickel alloy, itd give you a few hundred more degrees of melting point. However the result would be silver in color I guess so maybe that wouldnt help 😅
can the adds be an any longer and the episodes shorter?
probably
I wonder what would happen if you left on the outer jacket before you twisted the billet. I feel like it would stay together, then just mill off the the top layer to see what you got left.
The problem would be that the jacket would get incorporated into the twist, I don't think there would be a way to mill it off without losing the majority of the billet.
Cool idea
NEW: MV-EMP- Will may be lost to G-D... please don't lose this new guy (Sam)? He's the litteral "Hammersmith" [and also awesome]... :Edit- only thing more awesome would be forging heavier elements... say iridium perhaps?
Hi Alec Sam and Bella. Here are three suggestions on what you can forge
1 A Epsilon Axe
Apa sword
3 celtic Lancea
And if these suggestions are not enough, you can lookup suggestions I sent you during the METEORITE DAMASCUS movie
You welded, forged, nothing. No shot of bar. No shot of anything except a hammer. Click bait. YOU'RE really getting low to just make content
Check out another RUclipsr, Tyrell Knifeworks. He makes great, and almost all, copper included knives.
Is there any improved utility making something like this or is it just for visual aesthetics? Sorry, I'm someone who thinks utility is more important than beauty! If you can combine the two "like in traditional Damascus" then I am impressed! If copper Damascus was an improvement on the original then I'm all for it...but if it's just for aesthetics then who needs it??? Art has it's limitations...let's not sacrifice function for form🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Tyrell Knifeworks makes the most stunning copper/Damascus blades I’ve ever seen! 😍👌🏻🔥🔥🔥
I thought the technique was to do as little forge work as possible and mostly grind cu-mai. I have no idea though.