"I know who you are. Only one person alive hates me as much as you do." Of course, he meant himself. Anyone who knew anything about the Doctor knows that he couldn't have meant anyone else.
This whole idea is alluded to later too, during Time Heist. The Doctor has a whole revelation about people hating themselves while talking to Karabraxos that leads him to remember that he was the Architect all along. If anyone wasn't already thinking this about 11's words to the Dream Lord by the time that episode aired, they had to have realized it afterward.
The Dream Lord being the Valeyard is a solid head canon that I accept. It also fills in a couple of holes that have been bugging me for years. So thank you for that.
Call me crazy, but I think the dream lord is the valeyard, but younger. My full theory: the (14th? 17th? 82nd?) doctor regenerates and the valeyard gains a physical body and then appears in classic who. before that, like in 11s time, the valeyard still existed, just under the surface. the pollen only makes a facsimile of the valeyard, the 'real' valeyard is still a part of the doctor and is watching everything play out with the pollen. basically, the dream lord we see in the tardis is just a copy, and the dream lord we see in the reflection is the valeyard a la MoonKnight
There are striking parallels but I think the Valeyard is a separate entity conjured up from Matrix predictions by the High Council, not real until he acquires the Doctor's remaining incarnations.
He is, but he isn't. The Dream Lord is the psychic pollen creating a astral facsimile of all the same things the Valeyard is made up of. He is basically The Doctor having a nightmare about The Valeyard rather than The Valeyard himself.
I do personally like the idea that the Valeyard isn't a singular character, but is more a conceptual entity: the Time Lord Victorious would have been an iteration of it just as the Dream Lord was, as would the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor if left to his worst impulses. Heck, even the Hybrid was an extension of it, albeit manifest through a semi-codependent relationship in that case.
@@lexezlao Hum maybe distantly? I'm not sure to what degree Mr Clever was derived from the malevolent potentialities within the Doctor himself, it seemed more like just a Cyberman entity hiding in the Doctor's face & personality quirks. Perhaps we could say the particular personality quirks it drew on as its face include the malevolent potentialities that comprise the Valeyard too, but even then it's more like the shadow of the Valeyard instead of a full manifestation. A Cyberman program wearing the face of the Valeyard, mayhaps?
Valeyard has been used quite well in Big Finish audio dramas. He is one of my favorite Dr Who villains and I love how it is implied that his origin is multiple choice, kind of like Dr Who's too. He is a twisted mirror image of Theta Sigma.
@@PenneySounds In a meta way he is kind of continuity horror that the show doesnt really like. So much continuity packed on his character. He is the boogeyman that many Doctor Whos fear. That they will cross the line and become him.
You do know that Theta Sigma was simply the Prydonian Academy alumni cognomen that has been ascribed to him when his first incarnation was young, right? The Doctor's Name is a mtstery of mystical-like proportions: it is unpronouncable to Humans, and even then no one save a few select people in the universe knows it.
What is it bad that I can imagine some entity that represents continuity and then just every version of the doctor in Valley are just beating the s*** out of it
"I know who you are, there's only one person in the universe who hates me as much as you do" I think that basically says it all. The Valeyard is everything The Doctor hates about himself, the darkest sides of his nature.
@@erubin100 yeah, but listen to what The Master says. He’s says an amalgamation of the darker side from between the Doctor’s 12th, and final incarnation.
@@erubin100 I think the Doctor has always hated himself. He's always had guilt. He's done a lot of things that would weigh on him. And that's just the things he consciously knows about, not the things from his past lives before becoming the Doctor. But either way, the Valeyard comes from after the Time War
It always amazes me when people say "The Valeyard is a continuity nightmare! The show will never use him!" And he keeps being brought up like this inevitable demon. Honestly he will prolly be an alternative universe Doctor if he is ever used. Multiverses are all the rage nowadays.
I mean when has Who ever really cared about maintaining continuity though? Classic Who played it fast and loose with canon, and every New Who showrunner has basically soft-rebooted the entire series when they took the reins.
how about another version of the doctor one not fully time lord, one angrier at being abandoned in another reality, one we have seen before, one that committed genocide, one that came out of a hand
Well the use of 10 & Donna in the upcoming 60th special with 10 sporting those new clothes in the recent special after Regeneration does point to a parallel earth. We've already seen a multiverse in Who, Torchwood and Sarah Jane, most clearly with Series 2 and then Series 4 in Who.
You know, I've been positively obsessed with the Valeyard/Dream Lord connection ever since I first saw Amy's Choice (I even wrote a song about it), but I NEVER put together him teleporting around the Tardis was a reference to the Valeyard doing it in the Matrix. Which is CRAZY because that probably means the writers were specifically thinking of the Valeyard when they wrote the Dream Lord. All this time I thought it was just a coincidence, seeing as "the Doctor's dark side" isn't too specific of a concept. And then fans just connected the dots as they're wont to do. But nope, Valeyard all along. Wild stuff.
@@erubin100 they’ll have to at some point. The Valeyard incarnation exists between the Doctor’s 12th (11th Doctor is the real 12th incarnation) and final incarnations (likely sometime after the 13th Doctor/Jodie’s Doctor). RTD, I leave that to you.
I think it could still be written that the Master was wrong about the Valeyard and that the Valeyard is either a result of the Timelords changing the future and giving the Doctor more regenerations… Or (even though I hate The Timeless Children and would prefer it to be forgotten) that the Valeyard is an amalgamation of ALL of the Doctor’s darkest sides due to being a crime against this universe’s nature having come from outside of it. Just spitballing anyway. I love how the fandom almost universally agreed that the Dreamlord was a new Valeyard though. Something I think was absolutely Moffat’s intention. I’d love Toby Jones to come back in the role.
Based on what the Great Intelligence said, the Time Lords seem to have averted the Valeyard by releasing the regeneration limit, rather than caused him by doing so.
@@DokkaChapman besides the fact that he does still happen, since the doctor comes across him many times. The time lords even use the Valeyard during the time war. "A version of you Doctor with all your knowledge but lack of moral constraints"
@@mcyeddi What I meant was that The Valeyard is a constant warning as to what the Doctor could become, and considering the number of times he's bumped into himself, it makes sense that he should pop up from time to time.
Matt smith's acting is so great, down to the smallest details. Just the way he says I had vanity issues at the time, the small waver in his voice, it's incredible
If the Valeyard were to ever return, I'd love to see him played by Richard E. Grant. Little known fact that Grant played the 9th Doctor in a brief flash animated series in the couple years leading up the the series' reboot in 2005, he has the presence, tone and figure to play the Valeyard well.
@@bettercallsolman Amy and Capaldi in Fires of Pompeii, Martha in Army of Ghosts, Gwyneth(The Unquiet Dead) & Gwen Cooper(TorchWood), David Bradley in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship and as The First Doctor. Trust me there is no issue with a doctor who actor coming back as a new character
Clever use of phrasing by The Master of "12th and Last regeneration." He never specifies the last as the thirteenth, rather its more like all the impulses he subconsciously supressed due to his actions in the war and what he thought he had done in burning the TLs and Daleks with The Moment. Add on top of that how The Tardis always took him where he "needed to be" which often cost him and it makes sense that his Valeyard Avatar is more or less the worst of the Time Lords and the madness he experienced which almost fully turned him into the Time Lord Victorious.
The Valeyard was a character introduced when I wasn’t following the show so closely. It seemed odd that a future Doctor would be evil and want the rest of the Doctor’s regenerations…as it would be a paradox. Now that is see he is not an incarnation of the Doctor but pieces of him striving to exist apart from the Doctor, it makes sense. Add in the wibbly wobbly timey wimey aspect of causality in the Doctor Who lore, and it makes it possible for the Valeyard to both exist and never exist at the same time.
Amy's Choice is quite amazing, I love how the ending leaves it so open. The Valeyard story with RTD and Ncuti Gatwa would be quite good. Series 5 (New Who) is may all time favourite series I have had the privilege to watch.
I think its what would have happened in a branching timeline if the tenth doctor had never seen the consequences of his actions in the Waters of Mars, then a few regenerations later, the valeyard. But because the tenth doctor saw what his actions resulted in, he was scared away from going down the path of becoming timelord victorious.
I think had the time war hadn't have happened, then the doctor would turn into the Valeyard, but since it did happen, the doctor turned into the person they are today, the man who regrets, and the man who forgets.
So if I'm to understand this correctly. The Dream Lord is just another version of the Valeyard? If so that's pretty cool. Though I wish they did something more with that
It's kind of implied that in the original sequence of events where The Doctor died on Trenzalore, without Clara to convince the Time Lords to release the regeneration limit, the Valeyard fully manifested himself before that death. Remember, the 11th Doctor was the 12th incarnation, and since one incarnation used two regenerations, also the final, if he had perished on Trenzalore. That may be when he became the Valeyard went back along his timeline to seek more regenerations.
I believe that the dream lord is one of the earliest manifestations of the Valeyard in what we would call the "present time" Doctor. Matt Smith's doctor has a dark side, and it manifested itself through the psychic dust. Eventually that dark side of the Doctor themself will overcome them and become the Valeyard. You can probably think of it as if the Valeyard was a baby? and that baby was an internal part of the Doctor's psyche? of course this is just what i picked up im sure I missed something
@@owntmpsn The psychic pollen merely caused the Dream Lord to coalesce. But consider what he was. He was the darker sides of the Doctor's nature, and specifically of the Doctor's 12th and (in one timeline at least) final incarnation. The Dream Lord can't NOT be the Valeyard
@@owntmpsn I'm not convinced the Valeyard truly is a physical being in the trial story. The Master's description rules out that he is an actual regeneration of the Doctor, so how could he have an actual body?
The Valeyard is the amalgamation of The Doctor's darker sides, implying that he's probably a split entity from The Doctor. I consider the Dreamlord to be a sort of Prototype Valeyard until he eventually becomes part of the real deal.
"Somewhere between your 12th and final incarnation" Homie, that's like anyone between the Second 10th Doctor and whomever, whenever the Doctor finally decides to die.
@@PenneySounds in Time of the Doctor, Matt Smith's Doctor explains he's the 13th because of the War Doctor being an incarnation and that "10 regenerated twice," so the second 10th would basically be post Stolen Earth
@@AFoxhall The Tenth Doctor did not regenerate twice. He used a second regeneration, but he didn't use it on himself. He used it on the hand in the jar. So he did not regenerate into a new incarnation, but did use a regeneration. "You see? Used the regeneration energy to heal myself, but soon as I was done, I didn't need to change. I didn't want to. Why would I? Look at me. So, to stop the energy going all the way, I siphoned off the rest into a handy bio-matching receptacle, namely my hand. My hand there. My handy spare hand." So he used one of the 12 regenerations without actually regenerating. Which leaves the Eleventh Doctor as the 12th AND final incarnation. At least when he died on Trenzalore, which is when the Intelligence said he became the Valeyard.
Few opponents are more dangerous than the enemy within. As the Master told the 6th Doctor, "There is evil in everyone, even you." Valyard, Dreamlord, reguardless of what he's called he is the Doctor's inner Demon trying to come out.
Not sure how to describe it, but this is something that the New Who used that I like a lot. We've already met the Valeyard long ago, but now we've seen the little bits inside the Doctor that will/could eventually turn into the Valeyard through the Dream Lord. And it's seen probably the heaviest with River Song and the Doctor's marriage, each seeing the other at different points in each other's chronological timeline almost always out of order, resulting in one always knowing more than the other about what will happen.
I don't think the Valeyard is really, actually from the future. I think the High Council were faced with a big problem after the Doctor stumbled into their Ravalox cover-up and decided not to kill him but turn him into a more useful agent who would readily do their bidding. They went through millions of projections of future projections in the Matrix, found a potential future Doctor who had developed a hard-core "ends justify the means" mentality, and made him temporarily corporeal in the present, aiming to make him a permanent replacement for the Doctor by giving him the Doctor's remaining regenerations. That never happened, and at no point did any Doctor become the Valeyard because he really was a seperate entity, a golem created by Matrix energy.
This seemed initially to be the case until the dread of him occasionally came to life in other forces later because the Doctor met this Matrix creation. Still awaiting within his mind to be brought to consciousness once more.
The Dream Lord being a hypothetical next regeneration of the Valeyard, as the second Valeyard, is such a good idea I am surprised Big Finish hasn't already tried something with it.
@@PenneySoundsYeah, the psychic seeds coalesce him and then he gestates for how ever many regenerations until he is able to pop out again and then he becomes the Valeyard. That's how I see it anyway.
See, I know people are a bit divided on Jodie's term as The Doctor, but it does give an interesting opening for The Valeyard, in Twice Upon a Time he gets called 'The Shadow of The Valeyard,' by that logic the incarnations that worked for Division could be The Valeyard's as a shadow comes after the object casting it, Which would also be why The Valeyard tried to kill the 6th Doctor without worry of being wiped out as a result,
I don't think that adds up, when they established pretty clearly that the Valeyard was from the Sixth Doctor's future However, the Timeless Child's past lives, and the things they may have done for Division, could be the reason there is so much darkness in the Doctor's mind
Ahh, that's interesting. If I understand what you're saying, it's the idea that the Valeyard is not from the Doctor's future, but from their past? Like pre-Hartnell? It would make the Valeyard's plan make more sense, and would be neat. But if we're going with Timeless Child stuff, why would the Valeyard have needed more regenerations? Unless the Time Lords had somehow managed to suppress their abilities.
Yeah. I guess putting everything into perspective, the Dream Lord *technically* is the Valeyard. He's a manifestation of the darkest parts of The Doctor, so while he's not the same entity as The Valeyard we see in Trial of a Timelord, he's pretty much the same thing. I wonder if Moffat intended for The Dream Lord to be a reinvention or callback to The Valeyard. Though unlike the Valeyard, who's a darker version of the Doctor as a whole, The Dream Lord is very much a darker version of 11 specifically, taking his care and feelings for Amy and turning it against him.
The Valeyard seems to have developed a sense of his own identity, while the Dream Lord cares only about tormenting the particular Doctor in front of him. "Amy's Choice" basically gives us the seed from which the Valeyard sprouts
@@rattlestormrepublic4874 rule number 1: the Doctor lies. That might not have been the cause at all and he only said so to put Amy and Rory at ease because the real cause of their dream was something far worse
@@rattlestormrepublic4874 I like that idea, the Master says that the Valeyard was an incarnation between his 11th and 12th regenerations, so basically the 10th's Timelord Victorious persona, in otherwords the seeds were already planted before the 11th (12th regeneration) making the Dream Lord also fit into the picture! Maybe he could more tangibly exist in some instances because he also represents a regeneration the Doctor never actually had for himself e.g 10's humanoid doppelganger who ends up with Rose! You could also explain his face and that of the Dream Lord being different because they're each interacting with different versions of their better halves e.g the Valeyard's interaction with the 6th Doctor vs the Dream Lord's interaction with the 11th! Basically they could both just be different versions of the same Valeyard! You could even bring 11 back as the current Valeyard now that Tennant is the 14th Doctor bringing everything back round full circle!
The idea Solomon is like important enough The Great Intelligence remembers him is Moffat being on one and wanting to include a villain or two of his creation.
I’ve always liked the idea that the Valeyard is always a part of the Doctor’s future. The Doctor will never become the Valeyard, but he’s always going to be destined to. The Valeyard is always on the horizon, always a little bit further down the track, never managing to quite arrive.
Or they could have Tennant return as the Valeyard. Twelfht and final incarnation is a very broad statement, with the new regeneration cycle and the now introduced past incarnations, but Tennant still is the eleventh and the twelfht regeneration of the original cycle. There were hints towards him succumbing to his darkness, with the Timelord victorius scene, and the overall vanity of that incarnation. Hell, I'd be fine with it if the Meta Crisis 10 came back as Valeyard. He too had that darker side to him, that the real Doctor was very cautious of, and it would fix the issue of the Doctor having to become the Valeyard, by making him a seperate entity like that.
It certainly could be. The Master proved that the Matrix could be broken into and hacked. The Master is intelligent enough to do it, think about tell the Doctor she's the Timeless child make her question herself.
@@PenneySounds but the Doctor's been in the matrix a few times. Maybe he's/she's still in it. The Master is running a simulation for a while to mess with the Doctor?
@@billthewhovian This implies to me that the Spy Master is not long after the Tremas Master, and before the War Master. As I show in my Timeless Children video, Missy seems to already know about the Timeless Child, while the Spy Master has only recently discovered it.
It counts as using a regeneration, but does not count as regenerating. Because he didn't use the regeneration on himself, he used it on the handy spare hand. Matt Smith's incarnation is the 12th incarnation of the Doctor. He can only become the 13th if you include the Fugitive, but it's yet to be revealed if that incarnation used a regeneration or was deleted so thoroughly that she doesn't even count towards that cycle.
The way I screamed when you made the connection with the Dream Lord actually showing up between their 12th and final (at the time) incarnations is crazy. Also, it's interesting that they hate themselves more than anyone else, but also seem to enjoy the actual act of hanging out with clones or other incarnations of themselves
The Dream Lord wouldn't necessarily have to be the Valeyard himself, but merely the basis, the foundation, the skeletal structure for one who could, potentially, become the Valeyard.
They need to bring this guy back so they can iron out who he is and what happens when the doctor becomes him. An evil doctor that’s a giant threat to time itself.
I never related the Dreamlord to the Valeyard, and let's be honest, they're not REALLY the same person. But they do have similar aspects, and I think revealing the Dreamlord as the Valeyard properly would've been a nice touch.
@@PenneySounds They're really not the same entity would probably be a better way to say it, the valeyard, the Doctor and the Dream Lord are all the Doctor. The valeyard is a pseudo corporeal fragment of the doctor's dark side. The Dreamlord is like the shadow of the Valeyard. He is a dream pollen induced shallow mimicry of the Valeyard influenced by 11's subconscious / and personal insecurities. The ending scene where the doctors see the Dreamlord in the reflection can be explained away by drowsiness and potential hallucinogenic side effects of the pollen. He was absolutely scared, if not by the situation, but by the idea that the Dreamlord came from him.
@@PenneySounds at the start the master references the doctor’s darker sides somewhere between now and his final regeneration which I assume was referring to the late great John Hurt’s war doctor which would be really cool in universe
@@AstoundingCameron The War Doctor did dark things, but he was not himself a dark person. He was still the Doctor's good nature. WARRIOR: Go back. Go back to your lives. Go and be the Doctor that I could never be. Make it worthwhile. 10: All those years, burying you in my memory. 11: Pretending you didn't exist. Keeping you a secret, even from myself. 10: Pretending you weren't the Doctor, when you were the Doctor more than anybody else. 11: You were the Doctor on the day it wasn't possible to get it right.
@@AstoundingCameron But what the Master said was that the Valeyard comes from between the Doctor's 12th and final incarnations. But we now know that the 11th Doctor was both the 12th AND the final. At least in the timeline where he died on Trenzalore.
I like to belive that the metacrisis doctor was always supposed to happen, and he was the valyard. Which makes tennants incarnation the 12th. And the metacrisis is some inbetween the 12th and matts 13th. Seperate but the same.
It counted as using a regeneration. As I said, he used it on the hand, not on himself. It counts as using a regeneration, but no new incarnation was created. That's why the 12th incarnation was the final one. "12th and final". "You see? Used the regeneration energy to heal myself, but soon as I was done, I didn't need to change. I didn't want to. Why would I? Look at me. So, to stop the energy going all the way, I siphoned off the rest into a handy bio-matching receptacle, namely my hand. My hand there. My handy spare hand."
If you want to be super technical here, the Master states that the Valeyard is the, "amalgamation of the darker sides of [the Doctor's] nature, [taken] somewhere between [his] twelfth and final incarnation," final likely referring to his 13th as they wouldn't have known he'd go past 13 at this point, and if you go by the incarnations and regenerations the Doctor had after the reset of his life and memories (so ignoring everything from Timeless Child to Fugitive Doctor, basically), you have Hartnell 1, Troughton 2, Pertwee 3, T. Baker 4, Davison 5, C. Baker 6, McCoy 7, McGann 8, Hurt 9, Eccleston 10, Tennant 11, Tennant 12, Smith 13. The Valeyard may very well be the amalgamation of the darkness born from Tennant's "Time Lord Victorious" moment.
There is no "Tennant 12". Tennant is the 11th incarnation, Smith the 12th. But since the Tenth Doctor wasted a regeneration by using it on the spare hand instead of on himself, there could be no 13th incarnation. That left the Eleventh Doctor as the final incarnation when he died on Trenzalore. And we are told the Valeyard made himself known in that final battle. 12th and final
I had headcanon that the Valeyard was born during the Time War. Basically, the Time Lords used techniques to analyse and recreate the psyche of the Doctor and culminate a gestalt entity from their darkest thoughts, believing they could be sent into battle to anticipate the Daleks, beings also born of hate and darkness. They figured if anyone could find a way to defeat the Daleks it was the Doctor, they just needed a version that wouldn't hesitate to kill. When put to the job of finding a way of ending the war, the Valeyard theorised that the only way of ending the war was to stop it from ever happening to begin with, one that could have stopped the Time Lords' fall from grace, which was when word had gotten out that the Matrix had been breached and information taken from it, which led to the Time Lords losing face as being omnipotent, infallible beings. The conspiracy with Ravalox (Earth) and trying to charge the Doctor with crimes that would lead to his execution was just the Valeyard trying to cover up the theft; as long as the universe continued to believe the lie that the Time Lords were all powerful, none would dare challenge them.
Also with Tom Baker's doctor they showed faces of the doctor that had not been in the show so therefore they were faces of the doctor prior to the first doctor or at least a younger version of him was one of them but there were other faces too so the newer stuff where the doctor existed before Gallifrey became the home of the time Lords is incontinuity with that. Also considering they wanted to turn Ace into a Time Lord by slicing her DNA with the doctors also basically Incorporated what they wanted to make Cannon but couldn't because the show got canceled.
I’ve always thought that it might be cool to see the valeyard again. After all, we are now going into the third incarnation of the Doctor’s 2nd cycle but it could still be possible for the valeyard to get a body and a regeneration cycle of their own. PS. Let’s hope that we don’t have to deal with too much of 10’s vanity for the 60th. The last thing this fandom needs is another 12 years of begging for old faces back. I love 10, but regeneration should always be new, even if a particular incarnation is less popular.
@@Whiteythereaper I get that, I just worry that a general audience might feel like they’ve been baited and switched if they piled in for new DT and then he’s gone after 3 hours. I can’t wait for Ncuti, but we don’t know how much John Smith in the street knows about the next two years of the show.
It's just a bad idea. Not only is it a creatively bankrupt attempt to pander to nostalgia, it also sends the message to the idiot sexists that the BBC consider casting a woman to be a mistake.
I always figured that the Valeyard is a somewhat physical manifestation of the Doctor's internal conflicts. "An amalgamation of the darker parts of your nature." There is probably a timeline where he regenerates into that amalgamation.
From what i can gather, this kinda makes the Valeyard a very unique villain from other Dr who villains and even other villains in media that ive seen. And thats the fact thats hes not a being, hes a concept. An entity always tied to the doctor. And the thing about concepts is that they can change and morph without ever needing to worry ahout contradiciting what it's other variations were. Which makes it far scarier as it can never truly go away unless you kill the Doctor, which isnt worth the cost. Its an enemy that will always live with the doctor and can always afford to take its time. Hell, it doesnt even have to win, as seen with the Dream Lord variation smiling. Thats his victory. He made the Doctor play fully by his rules, even including how to wake up ("if you die in the dream, you wake up in reality")
I see what you did there. I never thought of the Dream Lord as the Valeyard, but maybe thought of along the same lines. They key line is "somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnations." Tennant 2 is 12, Smith is 13, and what comes between them.... hmmm... ok, go with me here, the Metacrisis Doctor that goes back to an alternate universe with Rose, who Supposedly has a normal human lifespan, but that's never tested or verified fully. SO... what if that Metacrisis Doc outlives Rose, via accident, disease, or old age, and the darkness in him grows and makes him biter and eventually he becomes the Valeyard! How does he look like Michael Jayston? He's still got the Doctor's knowledge, he still knows how to do a great many things, one of them could be how to take over someone else like the Master did w/Tremas, or he knows how to give himself enough Artron to change at least one more time? A good writer could work around it. But yeah, that's what I've been thinking about ever since the Metacrisis copy was made at JUST the right point "somewhere between" the relevant period of time.
There is no "Tennant 2". The Tenth Doctor is the 11th incarnation, or was believed to be at the time. He used two regenerations, but he wasn't two incarnations.
@@PenneySounds Then we have a fundamental disagreement on terminology. To me Incarnation means in terms of Time Lords: Lives lived between Regenerations, and appearance of said Incarnation is irrelevant. Presumably a particularly vain Time Lord who chose to regenerate in lieu of growing old in any one body, could regenerate into looking exactly the same 13 times over, but that doesn't mean they had 1 Incarnation. Not to me at least.
I always wanted an anti-hero version of the doctor. Especially after the death of a companion or a failure. Like the waters of mars, sometimes the doctor is the baddie.
Ive always wanted to believe that the Valeyard could be the metacrisis doctor in the other dimension. We work of the deleted scene were the 10th gave him a picece of tardis to grow his own. He loses Rose early in his adventures and without her to tether him to morality he loses it and becomes a vengeful merciless Valeyard. Some day he manages to break into our reality and seeks the doctors regenerations in order to become full time lord instead of part timelord. Thats a fan fic that i have anyway.
I'm curious about how the Timeless Child fits in, or if this will ever be addressed in the new series. Perhaps the Master got it wrong, and the Valeyard is those parts that the Division carved out when making The Doctor forget past assignments? Parts that the Doctor remembers at a very deep subconscious level, and regrets?
@@nathanhook8351 - The Doctor's memories had been erased by the Division, and all he could remember was his life from the First Doctor, when he fled Gallifrey. For all other Time Lords, 12 regenerations was the limit, so it is reasonable for him to expect that his time was up. Like it or not, Chibnall's tenure as showrunner is canon, and the Doctor is the Timeless Child whether or not Davies uses that background.
The fact that the Timeless Child has lived so long (though only as the Doctor for the most recent fraction of those lives) may very well be the reason there is so much darkness stored away in his mind.
@@PenneySounds the valeyard could be the past regenerations we did not get to see, since the doctor wasn't the 'doctor' the doctor then ran missions for the division. Or the valeyard could be the darkness stored of how the doctor was back then.
I feel like the one line that ruined the valeyard was placing it between his 12th and final regeneration, implying he would become the Valyard at one point. But I rather like the idea that the Valyard is not a regeneration of the doctor, but rather part of his soul that's always there. It would tie in with every moment the Doctor has gotten a bit too dark.
i would love a series where the doctor becomes the valeyard if what the master said is correct of course, some series of events that leads the doctor into such despair that makes him/her abandon their morals
I always thought the Meta Crisis Doctor was The Valeyard since he came from The Doctor's 12th incarnation and committed the atrocity of genocide against the Daleks.
The Tenth Doctor was the 11th incarnation, not the 12th. he used up a second regeneration, but not to create a new incarnation, but instead to create the Meta Crisis Doctor. He stayed the same incarnation.
@@_MyNameIsAJ_ No, because the 10th Doctor was just one incarnation. He used two regenerations, but did not become a new incarnation the second time. He directed the regeneration at the handy spare hand, instead of using it on himself. He healed but did not regenerate himself into a new incarnation.
The Doctor has been concretely shown to be a monster on the verge of losing controlq. The boogieman of all reality, a fixed point of death and destruction and unending plot armor for all that cross him. He has rules and good people surrounding him as a checks and balances system, but he has crossed the line before. The Timelord Victorious, the Original Battle of Trenzalore, Gallifrey Falls, Predator of the Daleks, Butcher of Skull Moon, the Valeyard, etc. etc. They're all parts of this ancient entities psyche. The darker and more malevolent and wrathful side. The narcissistic god that could break space-time. The omnicidal tyrant that chooses the easy way out. It'd be interesting to see if the Doctor becomes an antagonist, unhinged tyrant or if he remains on that edge.
Not actually. 12 regenerations means 13 incarnations. Or it would if the Tenth Doctor (the 11th incarnation) hadn't wasted one. Leaving the Eleventh Doctor as the 12th and final one. At least in the timeline where he died on Trenzalore. And it's that timeline that the Great Intelligence was talking about when saying "He will have other names before the end".
Bloody hell just realised I got here with an hour lol! Btw this video is epic because it shows that the Valeyard is still there, and fits perfectly into Modern Who!
Minor thread, and it doesn't really relate to the Valeyard, but I like that the whole "The Doctor hates himself" thing is how the Doctor found out who the Architect was in "Time Heist".
Honestly going off the clips presented I wonder if the Valeyard is actually nonlinear (wouldn't be out of place in a time travel show) and is like the Dream Lord more evolved, since 11 is the 12th regeneration it would make sense that the Dream Lord if the Valeyard _starts out_ here and then echos back across time and he grows and changes into his final Valeyard form we see in the 6th's era
Personally I think Moffat intended to go 100% into a full Valeyard show, and the BBC pulled him back. The setup for the darkest doctor we have seen on screen, Capaldi's, his capacity for acting the villain and being terrifying, and the death of Clara, Hell Bent, and Heaven Sent. The fact the following series had a redemption arc for Missy, which had already kinda begun. I think Moffat originally planned to have Heaven Sent go mostly the same, but the Doctor to _fail_ outright. Clara dies. He cannot save her. The last scene of that series would be Capaldi cradling her broken body in the Vaults, cut to the surrounding Time Lords, looking increasingly scared, cut to the Sisters of Karn looking terrified out if their mind, cut back as the doctor looks up with eyes full of unbridled rage, and then cut to black. The following year, announce that instead of Doctor Who, we have a new two-series show called The Valeyard. The premise is we enter a few years later into a universe where an entity called The Valeyard has been rampaging through the universe, all through time and space, killing _trillions_ in its wake. The Doctor hasn't stopped it, and nobody knows why. We start with River Song, who has figured out why, and what's happened, and who is responsible, and the first couple of episodes are her recruiting help to go and save the Doctor from himself. First Ashildr, then Nardole, Vash, Strax, then the bigger surprises - Captain Jack, and finally Missy. Missy would join upon seeing what her friend has become, realising that this is what she would have been had he not always been there to stop her, and has that final change of heart. This whole series is her redemption arc. We go from there, I think plenty of material for a good season or two. The setup was perfect, I just think the BBC said no.
Peter Capaldi would have been much better as the Valeyard than he was as the Doctor. If they had actually done that, I probably wouldn't have felt such contempt for the 13th Doctor because at least he would have been a villain on purpose. And yes, Capaldi is the 13th, not the 12th. I think the man is the most overrated actor who has ever played the Doctor but I still acknowledge him as a legitimate incarnation, which is more than I can say for Jodie Whittaker or Jo Martin (although Martin COULD have been a great 14th Doctor if she had been cast for anything other than ticking a diversity box).
Interesting theory! It makes me wonder if maybe Neil Patrick Harris is playing another version of the Valyard/Dream Lord in the 60th anniversary episode. His character name is curiously omitted in IMDB, so he’s probably playing some kind of major surprise villain.
@@amqru we're assuming that, but you never know, i dont think its been confirmed?? maybe theyre letting us think its the toymaker....but really someone else😉
There really is a sneaky workaround in the wording of the original introduction. If the Valeyard is pulled from "somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation," that doesn't NECESSARILY mean he fits between 12 and 13. It could be any time between Tennant's cancelled regeneration and the end.
Except that in one timeline, he died on Trenzalore, as both his 12th and final incarnation. And the Intelligence said that's when he became the Valeyard.
Except the Valeyard isn't psychic pollen. The Dream Lord is a mind parasite that *fed upon* The Doctor's darker aspects by giving them form. The Valeyard *is* those aspects incarnate. I get why people love to compare them and lump them together but they're just fundamentally different.
@@PenneySounds I can see how you interpret it that way, however, the Dream Lord *is* the shape and the voice *of the pollen* - that's what's being said. The Dream Lord is the manifestation of The Doctor's darker nature that the psychic pollen created to feed off of the TARDIS team. Meanwhile, The Valeyard is an entirely different creation. Both the Dream Lord and the Valeyard are manifestations of The Doctor's darker aspects, but separate creations. The Valeyard is closer in existence to something like the Meta-Crisis Doctor while the Dream Lord is what the pollen created latching onto The Doctor. The Dream Lord is a result of the pollen, not the other way around. If it had latched on to anybody else with enough darkness, it would have created a manifestation of them. It just happened to find its way aboard the TARDIS and latch onto The Doctor.
RORY: So that was the Dream Lord then? Those little specks. DOCTOR: No, no. No. Sorry, wasn't it obvious? The Dream Lord was me. The Pollen shaped the Dream Lord, but it wasn't the Dream Lord himself. The Meta-Crisis Doctor is too early. 12th and final, remember? The 11th Doctor was the 12th incarnation, and when he died on Trenzalore, he was the final. The psychic pollen was what created the entity that would become the Valeyard
@@PenneySounds I heard the same dialogue from the clip and the scene as you. Not sure why you're quoting it to me. Especially because you didn't listen (to two things actually). The first being the quote itself. It's like you heard The Doctor say "The Dream Lord was me" and tuned out after that, but that wasn't the end of the explanation. The Doctor says afterwards "Psychic pollen, it's a mind parasite. It feeds on everything dark in you, gives it a voice, turns it against you". The Dream Lord was what the pollen created latching onto The Doctor, based off his darkness. The Valeyard, conversely, is that darkness incarnate. Similar but different. The second being my own words. *Obviously* The Valeyard is not the Meta-Crisis Doctor. I said "The Valeyard is closer in existence to something like the Meta-Crisis Doctor". The Valeyard is a fully physical being with their own autonomy and existence in reality. The Dream Lord exists in a limited confine due to the pollen, when it is latched onto The Doctor. The Dream Lord is the pollen speaking and acting through a guise that suits the people around it. The Valeyard is the darker aspects of The Doctor given an offshoot form (akin to the Meta-Crisis Doctor having his own autonomy and existence in reality). The only other way I can think to explain the concept as simply as I can is like having an AI creation of you via a computer (Dream Lord) versus a full clone with only certain aspects of your personality transferred over (Valeyard).
holy crap I never noticed that it makes alot of sens why the Dream lord is considerd to be the Valeyard we need more of him he can even replace the master giving a new Vilian like how about the Valeyard or the dream lord being imortal like the doctor is since they are the doctors bad sides of him they would always exist with in the doctor thus he will never get rid of them always hunting him like the ghost of cristmas past always there at the back of the doctors mind lurking feeding of off his negative emotions trying to make the doctor do things that he wouldnt do otherwise like letting someone die on purpose thus he needs to confront his bad sides all of his pain and suffering in one entity that he needs to defeat but the doctor knows he cant get rid of the Valeyard aka the dreamlord just like that he needs to either contain it or accept it as a part of him and letting all this pent up anger out in one single move what that move might be well I dont want to spoil it.
Ok so, I've seen this happen alot so I'm gonna explain this The Doctor has had 13 incarnations, 12 faces and 12 regenerations We all know about the War Doctor so I won't go in-depth, but he is the 9th face and 9th incarnation which also makes him the 8th regeneration Now 10 regenerated in Journey's End and kept the same face, so he's still the 11th face, however he DID regenerate and just siphoned the energy away so his face wouldn't change, meaning that Tennant is the 11th face, 12th incarnation, 11th regeneration and the 10th Doctor It's not about his face, the Doctor DID regenerate he just kept the same face Matt's Doctor literally says "it was a regeneration" and he meant fully, it counted and therefore Tennant is 2 incarnations
@@novawolf_gaming It does though. That's what an incarnation is. By your reasoning there are also two 11th Doctors. The one that regenerated from the 10th Doctor in "The End Of Time", and the one that was healed by River's regeneration energy in "Let's Kill Hitler". But you know full well that just using regeneration to heal is different from actually regenerating.
@@PenneySounds the Dreamlord literally explains who he is and so does the doctor as the clips stated above. He was nothing more than dark thoughts. The Valyard is whole other regeneration. Plus the show runner even stated that the dream lord is based off the doctors guilt and shame as he isn't really vile. Whereas the Valyard is a more extreme version of the Master.
@@devonhopper7534 No, the Valeyard is not a regeneration. If he was simply an evil incarnation of the Doctor, he couldn't be from between incarnations. The Master's description rules out the Valeyard being a regeneration.
@@PenneySounds he is explaining who the Valyard is in the same sense of how the half human half timelord 10th Doctor. Not to mention in the 6th Doctor episodes Trial of a Timelord the valyard has a physical body and when asked how he got it he explained how he had to use the regeneration energy to form a new body. Which means, he was already one of the many incarnations of the doctors inside of the body before they become the next doctor. Like how the Watcher fused with to become 5th doctor. So yes, he is a regeneration of the doctor who just used the energy of the regeneration to form a body, just like 10 did. Which we know counts because 10 stayed 10 BECAUSE of the his extra hand.
Развлечения
"I know who you are. Only one person alive hates me as much as you do." Of course, he meant himself. Anyone who knew anything about the Doctor knows that he couldn't have meant anyone else.
At the same time, the line was intended to make us mistakenly jump to the Master, only to be proved wrong at the end. Very clever writing.
Indeed.
And doesn't it say a lot about the Doctor to know that he hates himself more than his mortal enemy. The Doctor's dark side is darker than the Master.
@@christopherholt6750 There seems to be a level on which the Master genuinely loves the Doctor. Probably more than the Doctor loves herself.
This whole idea is alluded to later too, during Time Heist. The Doctor has a whole revelation about people hating themselves while talking to Karabraxos that leads him to remember that he was the Architect all along. If anyone wasn't already thinking this about 11's words to the Dream Lord by the time that episode aired, they had to have realized it afterward.
The Dream Lord being the Valeyard is a solid head canon that I accept. It also fills in a couple of holes that have been bugging me for years. So thank you for that.
100% Solid, right down to the repeated, rapid "teleportation" style of movement. To my mind, it is 100% the same character.
Agreed! Plus 11 said a few things that match up with what the Master had said. "Psychic parasites feed on everything dark".
Call me crazy, but I think the dream lord is the valeyard, but younger. My full theory: the (14th? 17th? 82nd?) doctor regenerates and the valeyard gains a physical body and then appears in classic who. before that, like in 11s time, the valeyard still existed, just under the surface. the pollen only makes a facsimile of the valeyard, the 'real' valeyard is still a part of the doctor and is watching everything play out with the pollen. basically, the dream lord we see in the tardis is just a copy, and the dream lord we see in the reflection is the valeyard a la MoonKnight
There are striking parallels but I think the Valeyard is a separate entity conjured up from Matrix predictions by the High Council, not real until he acquires the Doctor's remaining incarnations.
He is, but he isn't. The Dream Lord is the psychic pollen creating a astral facsimile of all the same things the Valeyard is made up of. He is basically The Doctor having a nightmare about The Valeyard rather than The Valeyard himself.
I do personally like the idea that the Valeyard isn't a singular character, but is more a conceptual entity: the Time Lord Victorious would have been an iteration of it just as the Dream Lord was, as would the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor if left to his worst impulses. Heck, even the Hybrid was an extension of it, albeit manifest through a semi-codependent relationship in that case.
would Mr. clever also fit into this category?
@@lexezlao i would say probably not as that was an outside entity trying to take over rather than his own dark thoughts manifesting...
@@lexezlao Hum maybe distantly? I'm not sure to what degree Mr Clever was derived from the malevolent potentialities within the Doctor himself, it seemed more like just a Cyberman entity hiding in the Doctor's face & personality quirks. Perhaps we could say the particular personality quirks it drew on as its face include the malevolent potentialities that comprise the Valeyard too, but even then it's more like the shadow of the Valeyard instead of a full manifestation. A Cyberman program wearing the face of the Valeyard, mayhaps?
This seems like the most logical explanation for the existence of the Valeyard in the NuWho part of DW
Even doctor disco?
Valeyard has been used quite well in Big Finish audio dramas. He is one of my favorite Dr Who villains and I love how it is implied that his origin is multiple choice, kind of like Dr Who's too. He is a twisted mirror image of Theta Sigma.
Yes, Trenzalore may not have been the only potential future the Valeyard arose in. He may be an inevitability who exists in all possible futures.
@@PenneySounds In a meta way he is kind of continuity horror that the show doesnt really like. So much continuity packed on his character. He is the boogeyman that many Doctor Whos fear. That they will cross the line and become him.
@@PenneySounds like the machines in terminator and judgement day. it can be delayed but is always inevitable :3
You do know that Theta Sigma was simply the Prydonian Academy alumni cognomen that has been ascribed to him when his first incarnation was young, right? The Doctor's Name is a mtstery of mystical-like proportions: it is unpronouncable to Humans, and even then no one save a few select people in the universe knows it.
What is it bad that I can imagine some entity that represents continuity and then just every version of the doctor in Valley are just beating the s*** out of it
"I know who you are, there's only one person in the universe who hates me as much as you do"
I think that basically says it all. The Valeyard is everything The Doctor hates about himself, the darkest sides of his nature.
The Valeyard is also the parts of the Doctor that hate all the good things about him. All his self doubts, all his guilt. And he has a lot of guilt.
Did the doctor actually hate himself at this point? This is before the time war, so how much guilt could he possibly have?
@@erubin100 yeah, but listen to what The Master says. He’s says an amalgamation of the darker side from between the Doctor’s 12th, and final incarnation.
@@erubin100 I think the Doctor has always hated himself. He's always had guilt. He's done a lot of things that would weigh on him. And that's just the things he consciously knows about, not the things from his past lives before becoming the Doctor.
But either way, the Valeyard comes from after the Time War
@@thelegend3965 that could mean anything, and I'm pretty sure the writers had no idea what he meant when they wrote that scene.
It always amazes me when people say "The Valeyard is a continuity nightmare! The show will never use him!" And he keeps being brought up like this inevitable demon. Honestly he will prolly be an alternative universe Doctor if he is ever used. Multiverses are all the rage nowadays.
I mean when has Who ever really cared about maintaining continuity though? Classic Who played it fast and loose with canon, and every New Who showrunner has basically soft-rebooted the entire series when they took the reins.
how about another version of the doctor one not fully time lord, one angrier at being abandoned in another reality, one we have seen before, one that committed genocide, one that came out of a hand
@@theunfamousone2818 Legit my favorite theory for the Valeyard. 10 had that darkness and arrogance that could translate really well to a villian.
Well the use of 10 & Donna in the upcoming 60th special with 10 sporting those new clothes in the recent special after Regeneration does point to a parallel earth. We've already seen a multiverse in Who, Torchwood and Sarah Jane, most clearly with Series 2 and then Series 4 in Who.
I mean, this series of videos shows the opposite.
You know, I've been positively obsessed with the Valeyard/Dream Lord connection ever since I first saw Amy's Choice (I even wrote a song about it), but I NEVER put together him teleporting around the Tardis was a reference to the Valeyard doing it in the Matrix. Which is CRAZY because that probably means the writers were specifically thinking of the Valeyard when they wrote the Dream Lord. All this time I thought it was just a coincidence, seeing as "the Doctor's dark side" isn't too specific of a concept. And then fans just connected the dots as they're wont to do. But nope, Valeyard all along. Wild stuff.
It could still be unintentional, but it's too similar to dismiss.
The Valeyard needs to return
Played by Toby Jones
Who actually looks a little bit like Mr. Popplewick...
It is weird how they keep referencing him and never bringing him back.
@@erubin100 Unless you consider "Amy's Choice" being his apparent origin story as bringing him back
@@erubin100 they’ll have to at some point. The Valeyard incarnation exists between the Doctor’s 12th (11th Doctor is the real 12th incarnation) and final incarnations (likely sometime after the 13th Doctor/Jodie’s Doctor). RTD, I leave that to you.
@@stephenmurphy2212 But if you listen to what the Intelligence said, that already happened on Trenzalore. And then un-happened.
I think it could still be written that the Master was wrong about the Valeyard and that the Valeyard is either a result of the Timelords changing the future and giving the Doctor more regenerations…
Or (even though I hate The Timeless Children and would prefer it to be forgotten) that the Valeyard is an amalgamation of ALL of the Doctor’s darkest sides due to being a crime against this universe’s nature having come from outside of it.
Just spitballing anyway. I love how the fandom almost universally agreed that the Dreamlord was a new Valeyard though. Something I think was absolutely Moffat’s intention. I’d love Toby Jones to come back in the role.
Based on what the Great Intelligence said, the Time Lords seem to have averted the Valeyard by releasing the regeneration limit, rather than caused him by doing so.
The Valeyard is nothing but potential. His existence all depends on the Doctors actions.
@@DokkaChapman besides the fact that he does still happen, since the doctor comes across him many times. The time lords even use the Valeyard during the time war.
"A version of you Doctor with all your knowledge but lack of moral constraints"
@@mcyeddi What I meant was that The Valeyard is a constant warning as to what the Doctor could become, and considering the number of times he's bumped into himself, it makes sense that he should pop up from time to time.
@@TomGallagherSuperboyBeyond Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Matt smith's acting is so great, down to the smallest details. Just the way he says I had vanity issues at the time, the small waver in his voice, it's incredible
If the Valeyard were to ever return, I'd love to see him played by Richard E. Grant. Little known fact that Grant played the 9th Doctor in a brief flash animated series in the couple years leading up the the series' reboot in 2005, he has the presence, tone and figure to play the Valeyard well.
I like the idea. But it wouldn't make much sense considering he also played The Great Intelligence in series 7
It should be a current or previous incarnation of the doctor to drive home the evil-doctor point
id go with eddie redmayne hes got a level of doctor about him and can play angry very well
@@bettercallsolman Amy and Capaldi in Fires of Pompeii, Martha in Army of Ghosts, Gwyneth(The Unquiet Dead) & Gwen Cooper(TorchWood), David Bradley in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship and as The First Doctor.
Trust me there is no issue with a doctor who actor coming back as a new character
@@LordgraysonAlso, Patrick Troughton played the 2nd Doctor AND a villain in the same episode! An oldie, but still proving the point.
Clever use of phrasing by The Master of "12th and Last regeneration." He never specifies the last as the thirteenth, rather its more like all the impulses he subconsciously supressed due to his actions in the war and what he thought he had done in burning the TLs and Daleks with The Moment. Add on top of that how The Tardis always took him where he "needed to be" which often cost him and it makes sense that his Valeyard Avatar is more or less the worst of the Time Lords and the madness he experienced which almost fully turned him into the Time Lord Victorious.
"I'm neutral in this setup" I might use that next time I get caught in the middle at work 😅
The Valeyard was a character introduced when I wasn’t following the show so closely. It seemed odd that a future Doctor would be evil and want the rest of the Doctor’s regenerations…as it would be a paradox. Now that is see he is not an incarnation of the Doctor but pieces of him striving to exist apart from the Doctor, it makes sense. Add in the wibbly wobbly timey wimey aspect of causality in the Doctor Who lore, and it makes it possible for the Valeyard to both exist and never exist at the same time.
Amy's Choice is quite amazing, I love how the ending leaves it so open. The Valeyard story with RTD and Ncuti Gatwa would be quite good. Series 5 (New Who) is may all time favourite series I have had the privilege to watch.
I think its what would have happened in a branching timeline if the tenth doctor had never seen the consequences of his actions in the Waters of Mars, then a few regenerations later, the valeyard. But because the tenth doctor saw what his actions resulted in, he was scared away from going down the path of becoming timelord victorious.
I think had the time war hadn't have happened, then the doctor would turn into the Valeyard, but since it did happen, the doctor turned into the person they are today, the man who regrets, and the man who forgets.
Would be fun if way down the line, when Matt Smith's older, they brought him back to play the Valeyard
So if I'm to understand this correctly. The Dream Lord is just another version of the Valeyard? If so that's pretty cool. Though I wish they did something more with that
It's kind of implied that in the original sequence of events where The Doctor died on Trenzalore, without Clara to convince the Time Lords to release the regeneration limit, the Valeyard fully manifested himself before that death. Remember, the 11th Doctor was the 12th incarnation, and since one incarnation used two regenerations, also the final, if he had perished on Trenzalore. That may be when he became the Valeyard went back along his timeline to seek more regenerations.
I believe that the dream lord is one of the earliest manifestations of the Valeyard in what we would call the "present time" Doctor. Matt Smith's doctor has a dark side, and it manifested itself through the psychic dust. Eventually that dark side of the Doctor themself will overcome them and become the Valeyard. You can probably think of it as if the Valeyard was a baby? and that baby was an internal part of the Doctor's psyche? of course this is just what i picked up im sure I missed something
@@owntmpsn The psychic pollen merely caused the Dream Lord to coalesce. But consider what he was. He was the darker sides of the Doctor's nature, and specifically of the Doctor's 12th and (in one timeline at least) final incarnation.
The Dream Lord can't NOT be the Valeyard
@@owntmpsn I'm not convinced the Valeyard truly is a physical being in the trial story. The Master's description rules out that he is an actual regeneration of the Doctor, so how could he have an actual body?
@@PenneySounds lol
The Valeyard is the amalgamation of The Doctor's darker sides, implying that he's probably a split entity from The Doctor. I consider the Dreamlord to be a sort of Prototype Valeyard until he eventually becomes part of the real deal.
I feel the same way. The only difference between Dream Lord and Valeyard is not having or having a physical body separate from the Doctor.
"Somewhere between your 12th and final incarnation"
Homie, that's like anyone between the Second 10th Doctor and whomever, whenever the Doctor finally decides to die.
There was no second Tenth Doctor. What it means is between the Eleventh Doctor and Trenzalore.
@@PenneySounds in Time of the Doctor, Matt Smith's Doctor explains he's the 13th because of the War Doctor being an incarnation and that "10 regenerated twice," so the second 10th would basically be post Stolen Earth
@@AFoxhall The Tenth Doctor did not regenerate twice. He used a second regeneration, but he didn't use it on himself. He used it on the hand in the jar. So he did not regenerate into a new incarnation, but did use a regeneration.
"You see? Used the regeneration energy to heal myself, but soon as I was done, I didn't need to change. I didn't want to. Why would I? Look at me. So, to stop the energy going all the way, I siphoned off the rest into a handy bio-matching receptacle, namely my hand. My hand there. My handy spare hand."
So he used one of the 12 regenerations without actually regenerating. Which leaves the Eleventh Doctor as the 12th AND final incarnation. At least when he died on Trenzalore, which is when the Intelligence said he became the Valeyard.
@@PenneySoundsthat still counts as a regeneration for the doctor, that'd why 11 couldn't regenerate
@@couthlazerIt counts as using a regeneration, but it does not count as an incarnation. The Eleventh Doctor was the 12th incarnation, not the 13th.
Can I just say Toby Jones as the Dream Lord is casting perfection.
He also has a fair resemblance to Mr. Popplewick, a character the Valeyard posed as inside the Matrix.
Few opponents are more dangerous than the enemy within. As the Master told the 6th Doctor, "There is evil in everyone, even you." Valyard, Dreamlord, reguardless of what he's called he is the Doctor's inner Demon trying to come out.
Not sure how to describe it, but this is something that the New Who used that I like a lot. We've already met the Valeyard long ago, but now we've seen the little bits inside the Doctor that will/could eventually turn into the Valeyard through the Dream Lord. And it's seen probably the heaviest with River Song and the Doctor's marriage, each seeing the other at different points in each other's chronological timeline almost always out of order, resulting in one always knowing more than the other about what will happen.
I would love to see The Metacrisis Doctor back for the 60th Anniversary
I don't think the Valeyard is really, actually from the future. I think the High Council were faced with a big problem after the Doctor stumbled into their Ravalox cover-up and decided not to kill him but turn him into a more useful agent who would readily do their bidding. They went through millions of projections of future projections in the Matrix, found a potential future Doctor who had developed a hard-core "ends justify the means" mentality, and made him temporarily corporeal in the present, aiming to make him a permanent replacement for the Doctor by giving him the Doctor's remaining regenerations. That never happened, and at no point did any Doctor become the Valeyard because he really was a seperate entity, a golem created by Matrix energy.
This seemed initially to be the case until the dread of him occasionally came to life in other forces later because the Doctor met this Matrix creation. Still awaiting within his mind to be brought to consciousness once more.
That's really cool and makes a lot of sense.
The Dream Lord being a hypothetical next regeneration of the Valeyard, as the second Valeyard, is such a good idea I am surprised Big Finish hasn't already tried something with it.
Next? I thought it was obvious that the Dream Lord is the FIRST Valeyard. The origin story, if you will.
@@PenneySoundsYeah, the psychic seeds coalesce him and then he gestates for how ever many regenerations until he is able to pop out again and then he becomes the Valeyard. That's how I see it anyway.
See, I know people are a bit divided on Jodie's term as The Doctor, but it does give an interesting opening for The Valeyard, in Twice Upon a Time he gets called 'The Shadow of The Valeyard,' by that logic the incarnations that worked for Division could be The Valeyard's as a shadow comes after the object casting it,
Which would also be why The Valeyard tried to kill the 6th Doctor without worry of being wiped out as a result,
I don't think that adds up, when they established pretty clearly that the Valeyard was from the Sixth Doctor's future
However, the Timeless Child's past lives, and the things they may have done for Division, could be the reason there is so much darkness in the Doctor's mind
Ahh, that's interesting. If I understand what you're saying, it's the idea that the Valeyard is not from the Doctor's future, but from their past? Like pre-Hartnell? It would make the Valeyard's plan make more sense, and would be neat. But if we're going with Timeless Child stuff, why would the Valeyard have needed more regenerations? Unless the Time Lords had somehow managed to suppress their abilities.
Yeah. I guess putting everything into perspective, the Dream Lord *technically* is the Valeyard. He's a manifestation of the darkest parts of The Doctor, so while he's not the same entity as The Valeyard we see in Trial of a Timelord, he's pretty much the same thing. I wonder if Moffat intended for The Dream Lord to be a reinvention or callback to The Valeyard. Though unlike the Valeyard, who's a darker version of the Doctor as a whole, The Dream Lord is very much a darker version of 11 specifically, taking his care and feelings for Amy and turning it against him.
The Valeyard seems to have developed a sense of his own identity, while the Dream Lord cares only about tormenting the particular Doctor in front of him. "Amy's Choice" basically gives us the seed from which the Valeyard sprouts
The psychic pollen was in the time rotar, key word *time* meaning the valeyard could project itself throughout history.
@@rattlestormrepublic4874 rule number 1: the Doctor lies. That might not have been the cause at all and he only said so to put Amy and Rory at ease because the real cause of their dream was something far worse
Interesting concept
@@rattlestormrepublic4874 I like that idea, the Master says that the Valeyard was an incarnation between his 11th and 12th regenerations, so basically the 10th's Timelord Victorious persona, in otherwords the seeds were already planted before the 11th (12th regeneration) making the Dream Lord also fit into the picture!
Maybe he could more tangibly exist in some instances because he also represents a regeneration the Doctor never actually had for himself e.g 10's humanoid doppelganger who ends up with Rose! You could also explain his face and that of the Dream Lord being different because they're each interacting with different versions of their better halves e.g the Valeyard's interaction with the 6th Doctor vs the Dream Lord's interaction with the 11th!
Basically they could both just be different versions of the same Valeyard! You could even bring 11 back as the current Valeyard now that Tennant is the 14th Doctor bringing everything back round full circle!
The idea Solomon is like important enough The Great Intelligence remembers him is Moffat being on one and wanting to include a villain or two of his creation.
I’ve always liked the idea that the Valeyard is always a part of the Doctor’s future.
The Doctor will never become the Valeyard, but he’s always going to be destined to. The Valeyard is always on the horizon, always a little bit further down the track, never managing to quite arrive.
SPOILERS FROM THE THIRD DOCTOR WHO 60 SPECIALS!
With this bigeneration thing, we could actually see the valyard birth 🤔
I’d love to see a new version of the dream lord… played by another doctors actor.
They could show an alternate history where 11 becomes the Valeyard
Or they could have Tennant return as the Valeyard. Twelfht and final incarnation is a very broad statement, with the new regeneration cycle and the now introduced past incarnations, but Tennant still is the eleventh and the twelfht regeneration of the original cycle. There were hints towards him succumbing to his darkness, with the Timelord victorius scene, and the overall vanity of that incarnation. Hell, I'd be fine with it if the Meta Crisis 10 came back as Valeyard. He too had that darker side to him, that the real Doctor was very cautious of, and it would fix the issue of the Doctor having to become the Valeyard, by making him a seperate entity like that.
@@Jokuman357 that’s kinda what I had in mind!
@@APlatypus Great minds think alike, and all that! Hahaha.
@@Jokuman357 yep, now where’s that fedora…
BBC, stop jerking us around and give us a Valeyard incarnation!
The Valeyard isn't an incarnation. He could be a Watcher though.
The fact that the valiard was able to manipulate The matrix could mean that the timeless child storyline was a manipulation.
It wasn't. More likely is suggests that the Master discovered it while infiltrating the Matrix during the trial.
It certainly could be. The Master proved that the Matrix could be broken into and hacked. The Master is intelligent enough to do it, think about tell the Doctor she's the Timeless child make her question herself.
@@PenneySounds but the Doctor's been in the matrix a few times. Maybe he's/she's still in it. The Master is running a simulation for a while to mess with the Doctor?
@@billthewhovian This implies to me that the Spy Master is not long after the Tremas Master, and before the War Master. As I show in my Timeless Children video, Missy seems to already know about the Timeless Child, while the Spy Master has only recently discovered it.
@@PenneySoundsI really hope they make Spy Master pre-time war. It would really explain a lot.
The Valeyard was a really cool villain..and Doctor, I guess?
"Somewhere between your 12th and final incarnation"
So from Tennant to the Caretaker...
No, Tennant was the 11th incarnation
@@PenneySounds and 12th my freind. (Metacrsis regeneration).
There wasn't a regeneration during the Meta Crisis. Smith is the 12th.
@@PenneySounds 5:21 still counts as a renegeration making Matt the 13th. The 11th "Doctor" but the 13th "renegeration of this unnamed Galefryan".
It counts as using a regeneration, but does not count as regenerating. Because he didn't use the regeneration on himself, he used it on the handy spare hand. Matt Smith's incarnation is the 12th incarnation of the Doctor. He can only become the 13th if you include the Fugitive, but it's yet to be revealed if that incarnation used a regeneration or was deleted so thoroughly that she doesn't even count towards that cycle.
The way I screamed when you made the connection with the Dream Lord actually showing up between their 12th and final (at the time) incarnations is crazy.
Also, it's interesting that they hate themselves more than anyone else, but also seem to enjoy the actual act of hanging out with clones or other incarnations of themselves
The Dream Lord wouldn't necessarily have to be the Valeyard himself, but merely the basis, the foundation, the skeletal structure for one who could, potentially, become the Valeyard.
They need to bring this guy back so they can iron out who he is and what happens when the doctor becomes him. An evil doctor that’s a giant threat to time itself.
I never related the Dreamlord to the Valeyard, and let's be honest, they're not REALLY the same person. But they do have similar aspects, and I think revealing the Dreamlord as the Valeyard properly would've been a nice touch.
How are they not really the same person?
@@PenneySounds They're really not the same entity would probably be a better way to say it, the valeyard, the Doctor and the Dream Lord are all the Doctor. The valeyard is a pseudo corporeal fragment of the doctor's dark side. The Dreamlord is like the shadow of the Valeyard. He is a dream pollen induced shallow mimicry of the Valeyard influenced by 11's subconscious / and personal insecurities. The ending scene where the doctors see the Dreamlord in the reflection can be explained away by drowsiness and potential hallucinogenic side effects of the pollen. He was absolutely scared, if not by the situation, but by the idea that the Dreamlord came from him.
Agreed
MIND BLOWN! Excellent work!
Fhwifnsifjf, DID THE MASTER REFERENCE THE WAR DOCTOR ABOUT TWENTY SEVEN YEARS BEFORE HE WAS ACTUALLY SHOWN
The War Doctor?
@@PenneySounds at the start the master references the doctor’s darker sides somewhere between now and his final regeneration which I assume was referring to the late great John Hurt’s war doctor which would be really cool in universe
@@AstoundingCameron The War Doctor did dark things, but he was not himself a dark person. He was still the Doctor's good nature.
WARRIOR: Go back. Go back to your lives. Go and be the Doctor that I could never be. Make it worthwhile.
10: All those years, burying you in my memory.
11: Pretending you didn't exist. Keeping you a secret, even from myself.
10: Pretending you weren't the Doctor, when you were the Doctor more than anybody else.
11: You were the Doctor on the day it wasn't possible to get it right.
@@PenneySounds you do raise a good point
@@AstoundingCameron But what the Master said was that the Valeyard comes from between the Doctor's 12th and final incarnations. But we now know that the 11th Doctor was both the 12th AND the final. At least in the timeline where he died on Trenzalore.
He is still refered to as the shadow of the valeyard
They should have used the same sound effect just to set the fandom off.
I like to belive that the metacrisis doctor was always supposed to happen, and he was the valyard. Which makes tennants incarnation the 12th. And the metacrisis is some inbetween the 12th and matts 13th. Seperate but the same.
But he wasn't the 12th incarnation, he was the 11th.
@PenneySounds It counted as a regeneration, so technically, he regenerated into the 12th but kept the face.
No, he didn't. He used a regeneration, but he used it on the hand instead if on himself. He prevented himself from regenerating.
@PenneySounds Matt Smith's doctor said that it did count as a regeneration, and that's why he couldn't regenerate anymore at the end of season 7.
It counted as using a regeneration. As I said, he used it on the hand, not on himself. It counts as using a regeneration, but no new incarnation was created. That's why the 12th incarnation was the final one. "12th and final".
"You see? Used the regeneration energy to heal myself, but soon as I was done, I didn't need to change. I didn't want to. Why would I? Look at me. So, to stop the energy going all the way, I siphoned off the rest into a handy bio-matching receptacle, namely my hand. My hand there. My handy spare hand."
If you want to be super technical here, the Master states that the Valeyard is the, "amalgamation of the darker sides of [the Doctor's] nature, [taken] somewhere between [his] twelfth and final incarnation," final likely referring to his 13th as they wouldn't have known he'd go past 13 at this point, and if you go by the incarnations and regenerations the Doctor had after the reset of his life and memories (so ignoring everything from Timeless Child to Fugitive Doctor, basically), you have Hartnell 1, Troughton 2, Pertwee 3, T. Baker 4, Davison 5, C. Baker 6, McCoy 7, McGann 8, Hurt 9, Eccleston 10, Tennant 11, Tennant 12, Smith 13. The Valeyard may very well be the amalgamation of the darkness born from Tennant's "Time Lord Victorious" moment.
There is no "Tennant 12". Tennant is the 11th incarnation, Smith the 12th. But since the Tenth Doctor wasted a regeneration by using it on the spare hand instead of on himself, there could be no 13th incarnation. That left the Eleventh Doctor as the final incarnation when he died on Trenzalore. And we are told the Valeyard made himself known in that final battle.
12th and final
@@PenneySounds It is canonically stated Tennant used up a life and regenerated into himself due to vanity issues. A life was used up. I'm counting it.
He used up a regeneration, but he didn't use it on himself. There was no new incarnation.
@@PenneySoundsHe used it on himself and channel the rest to the hand.
I had headcanon that the Valeyard was born during the Time War. Basically, the Time Lords used techniques to analyse and recreate the psyche of the Doctor and culminate a gestalt entity from their darkest thoughts, believing they could be sent into battle to anticipate the Daleks, beings also born of hate and darkness. They figured if anyone could find a way to defeat the Daleks it was the Doctor, they just needed a version that wouldn't hesitate to kill. When put to the job of finding a way of ending the war, the Valeyard theorised that the only way of ending the war was to stop it from ever happening to begin with, one that could have stopped the Time Lords' fall from grace, which was when word had gotten out that the Matrix had been breached and information taken from it, which led to the Time Lords losing face as being omnipotent, infallible beings.
The conspiracy with Ravalox (Earth) and trying to charge the Doctor with crimes that would lead to his execution was just the Valeyard trying to cover up the theft; as long as the universe continued to believe the lie that the Time Lords were all powerful, none would dare challenge them.
The doctor knew who the dream Lord was instant he saw him.
Doctor 11 always feared his dark side. It was the Valyard he was afraid of. The Valyard was what he thought he'd see in Room 11.
"The one who waits"?
Hey may be 86... but I'd love to see Michael Jayston appear in some capacity again... He played that role so well.
Jayston as the Valeyard, Jones as... Mr. Popplewick?
@@PenneySounds I could do that :)
I definitely wouldn't be surprised if the Valeyard comes back even stronger now, post toymaker
IIRC, Big Finish tries to suggest all Time Lord's have their own version of the Valyard. Romana faces her version, the Imperatrix.
And Missy had "The Lumiat", and incarnation of the Master who had "tarned gud"
Also with Tom Baker's doctor they showed faces of the doctor that had not been in the show so therefore they were faces of the doctor prior to the first doctor or at least a younger version of him was one of them but there were other faces too so the newer stuff where the doctor existed before Gallifrey became the home of the time Lords is incontinuity with that. Also considering they wanted to turn Ace into a Time Lord by slicing her DNA with the doctors also basically Incorporated what they wanted to make Cannon but couldn't because the show got canceled.
Imagine Ace as a timelord, that would be pretty cool x
I like thinking about the converse of the biggest statement in this video: "There's only one person in the universe I hate as much as you."
I’ve always thought that it might be cool to see the valeyard again. After all, we are now going into the third incarnation of the Doctor’s 2nd cycle but it could still be possible for the valeyard to get a body and a regeneration cycle of their own.
PS. Let’s hope that we don’t have to deal with too much of 10’s vanity for the 60th. The last thing this fandom needs is another 12 years of begging for old faces back. I love 10, but regeneration should always be new, even if a particular incarnation is less popular.
@@Whiteythereaper I get that, I just worry that a general audience might feel like they’ve been baited and switched if they piled in for new DT and then he’s gone after 3 hours. I can’t wait for Ncuti, but we don’t know how much John Smith in the street knows about the next two years of the show.
It's just a bad idea. Not only is it a creatively bankrupt attempt to pander to nostalgia, it also sends the message to the idiot sexists that the BBC consider casting a woman to be a mistake.
@@PenneySounds I’m inclined to agree with you
I always figured that the Valeyard is a somewhat physical manifestation of the Doctor's internal conflicts. "An amalgamation of the darker parts of your nature." There is probably a timeline where he regenerates into that amalgamation.
From what i can gather, this kinda makes the Valeyard a very unique villain from other Dr who villains and even other villains in media that ive seen. And thats the fact thats hes not a being, hes a concept. An entity always tied to the doctor. And the thing about concepts is that they can change and morph without ever needing to worry ahout contradiciting what it's other variations were. Which makes it far scarier as it can never truly go away unless you kill the Doctor, which isnt worth the cost. Its an enemy that will always live with the doctor and can always afford to take its time. Hell, it doesnt even have to win, as seen with the Dream Lord variation smiling. Thats his victory. He made the Doctor play fully by his rules, even including how to wake up ("if you die in the dream, you wake up in reality")
I see what you did there. I never thought of the Dream Lord as the Valeyard, but maybe thought of along the same lines.
They key line is "somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnations." Tennant 2 is 12, Smith is 13, and what comes between them.... hmmm... ok, go with me here, the Metacrisis Doctor that goes back to an alternate universe with Rose, who Supposedly has a normal human lifespan, but that's never tested or verified fully. SO... what if that Metacrisis Doc outlives Rose, via accident, disease, or old age, and the darkness in him grows and makes him biter and eventually he becomes the Valeyard! How does he look like Michael Jayston? He's still got the Doctor's knowledge, he still knows how to do a great many things, one of them could be how to take over someone else like the Master did w/Tremas, or he knows how to give himself enough Artron to change at least one more time? A good writer could work around it.
But yeah, that's what I've been thinking about ever since the Metacrisis copy was made at JUST the right point "somewhere between" the relevant period of time.
There is no "Tennant 2". The Tenth Doctor is the 11th incarnation, or was believed to be at the time. He used two regenerations, but he wasn't two incarnations.
@@PenneySounds Then we have a fundamental disagreement on terminology. To me Incarnation means in terms of Time Lords: Lives lived between Regenerations, and appearance of said Incarnation is irrelevant. Presumably a particularly vain Time Lord who chose to regenerate in lieu of growing old in any one body, could regenerate into looking exactly the same 13 times over, but that doesn't mean they had 1 Incarnation. Not to me at least.
But he didn't regenerate. He gave the regeneration to the handy spare hand.
@@PenneySounds If it counted toward making Matt the final one then it counts. But again, we don't have to agree, I just see it differently.
@@R_SENAL It counted only because a regeneration was used. An incarnation was not created by using it
I half expect a "thou are I, I art thou" followed by a persona awakening XD
"Just....STOP TELEPORTING FOR A SECOND!?"
i always loved how the Master straight exposes the Valeyard in the trial
I never noticed how the dreamlord and the valyards teleporting was the same until watching this 😮
I always wanted an anti-hero version of the doctor. Especially after the death of a companion or a failure. Like the waters of mars, sometimes the doctor is the baddie.
I can see the dream lord as the Valeyard.
We might be seeing The Valeyard soon since he is in between the 12th and final incarnations of The Doctor
What do you mean?
Ive always wanted to believe that the Valeyard could be the metacrisis doctor in the other dimension. We work of the deleted scene were the 10th gave him a picece of tardis to grow his own. He loses Rose early in his adventures and without her to tether him to morality he loses it and becomes a vengeful merciless Valeyard. Some day he manages to break into our reality and seeks the doctors regenerations in order to become full time lord instead of part timelord. Thats a fan fic that i have anyway.
I'm curious about how the Timeless Child fits in, or if this will ever be addressed in the new series. Perhaps the Master got it wrong, and the Valeyard is those parts that the Division carved out when making The Doctor forget past assignments? Parts that the Doctor remembers at a very deep subconscious level, and regrets?
it doesn't fit in. Notice how Matt Smith can't regenerate any more in the clips here.
@@nathanhook8351 - The Doctor's memories had been erased by the Division, and all he could remember was his life from the First Doctor, when he fled Gallifrey. For all other Time Lords, 12 regenerations was the limit, so it is reasonable for him to expect that his time was up.
Like it or not, Chibnall's tenure as showrunner is canon, and the Doctor is the Timeless Child whether or not Davies uses that background.
@@nathanhook8351 He can't regenerate because Tecteun placed a limit on regeneration. See my video on the subject.
The fact that the Timeless Child has lived so long (though only as the Doctor for the most recent fraction of those lives) may very well be the reason there is so much darkness stored away in his mind.
@@PenneySounds the valeyard could be the past regenerations we did not get to see, since the doctor wasn't the 'doctor' the doctor then ran missions for the division. Or the valeyard could be the darkness stored of how the doctor was back then.
now that I hadn't connected
Your 12th and final. Smart future proofing there
I remember one Doctor Who Comic where 10 and 11 met 12, and they both think he's the Valeyard.
I feel like the one line that ruined the valeyard was placing it between his 12th and final regeneration, implying he would become the Valyard at one point. But I rather like the idea that the Valyard is not a regeneration of the doctor, but rather part of his soul that's always there. It would tie in with every moment the Doctor has gotten a bit too dark.
i would love a series where the doctor becomes the valeyard if what the master said is correct of course, some series of events that leads the doctor into such despair that makes him/her abandon their morals
I felt the Valeyard should have been used during jodies run. Hopefully we will see him in the future
I always thought the Meta Crisis Doctor was The Valeyard since he came from The Doctor's 12th incarnation and committed the atrocity of genocide against the Daleks.
The Tenth Doctor was the 11th incarnation, not the 12th. he used up a second regeneration, but not to create a new incarnation, but instead to create the Meta Crisis Doctor. He stayed the same incarnation.
@@_MyNameIsAJ_ No, because the 10th Doctor was just one incarnation. He used two regenerations, but did not become a new incarnation the second time. He directed the regeneration at the handy spare hand, instead of using it on himself. He healed but did not regenerate himself into a new incarnation.
@@_MyNameIsAJ_ Not unless he regenerates into a new body, no
Good video.
I always thought that the "darker side" ended up being the doctor during his Timelord Victorious phase
Maybe Missy is the Master’s “Valeyard” showing an amalgamation of the lighter sides of their nature
And the result is still evil. Makes sense.
They did kind of do that in the audio dramas though.
The Doctor has been concretely shown to be a monster on the verge of losing controlq. The boogieman of all reality, a fixed point of death and destruction and unending plot armor for all that cross him. He has rules and good people surrounding him as a checks and balances system, but he has crossed the line before. The Timelord Victorious, the Original Battle of Trenzalore, Gallifrey Falls, Predator of the Daleks, Butcher of Skull Moon, the Valeyard, etc. etc. They're all parts of this ancient entities psyche. The darker and more malevolent and wrathful side. The narcissistic god that could break space-time. The omnicidal tyrant that chooses the easy way out. It'd be interesting to see if the Doctor becomes an antagonist, unhinged tyrant or if he remains on that edge.
Great video I am surprised the valyard is still being talked about it
It comes from between Tennant 2.0 and Smith, which makes it all the better that 11 dealt with him
Tennant 2.0 is after Whittaker
I thought the same back when the Dream Lord Appeared War Doctor Time Lord Victorious
the interesting comment was he is you between your 12 and final incarnation. Effectively confimring more than 12 regenerations.
Not actually. 12 regenerations means 13 incarnations. Or it would if the Tenth Doctor (the 11th incarnation) hadn't wasted one. Leaving the Eleventh Doctor as the 12th and final one. At least in the timeline where he died on Trenzalore. And it's that timeline that the Great Intelligence was talking about when saying "He will have other names before the end".
Bloody hell just realised I got here with an hour lol! Btw this video is epic because it shows that the Valeyard is still there, and fits perfectly into Modern Who!
I’m honestly quite sad we never saw the Valeyard again. A semi-Villain arc of the Doctor would be amazing.
Nice.
Minor thread, and it doesn't really relate to the Valeyard, but I like that the whole "The Doctor hates himself" thing is how the Doctor found out who the Architect was in "Time Heist".
Yes, that's a great example
From which episode are the dream lord scenes?
Amys Choice, S5 E7
Honestly going off the clips presented I wonder if the Valeyard is actually nonlinear (wouldn't be out of place in a time travel show) and is like the Dream Lord more evolved, since 11 is the 12th regeneration it would make sense that the Dream Lord if the Valeyard _starts out_ here and then echos back across time and he grows and changes into his final Valeyard form we see in the 6th's era
It's a time travel show, so it's not really an issue for the 6th Doctor to meet a being created in the 11th Doctor's time
5:23 no one tell him bout 14
Personally I think Moffat intended to go 100% into a full Valeyard show, and the BBC pulled him back. The setup for the darkest doctor we have seen on screen, Capaldi's, his capacity for acting the villain and being terrifying, and the death of Clara, Hell Bent, and Heaven Sent. The fact the following series had a redemption arc for Missy, which had already kinda begun.
I think Moffat originally planned to have Heaven Sent go mostly the same, but the Doctor to _fail_ outright. Clara dies. He cannot save her. The last scene of that series would be Capaldi cradling her broken body in the Vaults, cut to the surrounding Time Lords, looking increasingly scared, cut to the Sisters of Karn looking terrified out if their mind, cut back as the doctor looks up with eyes full of unbridled rage, and then cut to black.
The following year, announce that instead of Doctor Who, we have a new two-series show called The Valeyard. The premise is we enter a few years later into a universe where an entity called The Valeyard has been rampaging through the universe, all through time and space, killing _trillions_ in its wake. The Doctor hasn't stopped it, and nobody knows why. We start with River Song, who has figured out why, and what's happened, and who is responsible, and the first couple of episodes are her recruiting help to go and save the Doctor from himself. First Ashildr, then Nardole, Vash, Strax, then the bigger surprises - Captain Jack, and finally Missy. Missy would join upon seeing what her friend has become, realising that this is what she would have been had he not always been there to stop her, and has that final change of heart. This whole series is her redemption arc. We go from there, I think plenty of material for a good season or two.
The setup was perfect, I just think the BBC said no.
Peter Capaldi would have been much better as the Valeyard than he was as the Doctor. If they had actually done that, I probably wouldn't have felt such contempt for the 13th Doctor because at least he would have been a villain on purpose. And yes, Capaldi is the 13th, not the 12th. I think the man is the most overrated actor who has ever played the Doctor but I still acknowledge him as a legitimate incarnation, which is more than I can say for Jodie Whittaker or Jo Martin (although Martin COULD have been a great 14th Doctor if she had been cast for anything other than ticking a diversity box).
@@tomnorton4277capaldis was the 14th
No, the 12th Doctor was the Doctor's 13th incarnation
@@PenneySounds he’s the start of a new regeneration cycle. 13 would mark the END of it.
Only if every regeneration was used to create a new incarnation. But one was wasted.
There should be a video like this about the Doctor's disdain for pears 😂
It's on my list. Problem is it only got 3 references in the show and one is a deleted scene.
Interesting theory! It makes me wonder if maybe Neil Patrick Harris is playing another version of the Valyard/Dream Lord in the 60th anniversary episode. His character name is curiously omitted in IMDB, so he’s probably playing some kind of major surprise villain.
He plays the celestial toymaker
@@amqru we're assuming that, but you never know, i dont think its been confirmed?? maybe theyre letting us think its the toymaker....but really someone else😉
There really is a sneaky workaround in the wording of the original introduction. If the Valeyard is pulled from "somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation," that doesn't NECESSARILY mean he fits between 12 and 13. It could be any time between Tennant's cancelled regeneration and the end.
Except that in one timeline, he died on Trenzalore, as both his 12th and final incarnation. And the Intelligence said that's when he became the Valeyard.
Except the Valeyard isn't psychic pollen. The Dream Lord is a mind parasite that *fed upon* The Doctor's darker aspects by giving them form. The Valeyard *is* those aspects incarnate. I get why people love to compare them and lump them together but they're just fundamentally different.
I don't think the teleporting style doesn't help
If you listen to the dialogue, the pollen is NOT the Dream Lord, it merely gave him shape, gave him a voice.
@@PenneySounds I can see how you interpret it that way, however, the Dream Lord *is* the shape and the voice *of the pollen* - that's what's being said.
The Dream Lord is the manifestation of The Doctor's darker nature that the psychic pollen created to feed off of the TARDIS team. Meanwhile, The Valeyard is an entirely different creation. Both the Dream Lord and the Valeyard are manifestations of The Doctor's darker aspects, but separate creations. The Valeyard is closer in existence to something like the Meta-Crisis Doctor while the Dream Lord is what the pollen created latching onto The Doctor.
The Dream Lord is a result of the pollen, not the other way around. If it had latched on to anybody else with enough darkness, it would have created a manifestation of them. It just happened to find its way aboard the TARDIS and latch onto The Doctor.
RORY: So that was the Dream Lord then? Those little specks.
DOCTOR: No, no. No. Sorry, wasn't it obvious? The Dream Lord was me.
The Pollen shaped the Dream Lord, but it wasn't the Dream Lord himself.
The Meta-Crisis Doctor is too early. 12th and final, remember? The 11th Doctor was the 12th incarnation, and when he died on Trenzalore, he was the final.
The psychic pollen was what created the entity that would become the Valeyard
@@PenneySounds I heard the same dialogue from the clip and the scene as you. Not sure why you're quoting it to me. Especially because you didn't listen (to two things actually).
The first being the quote itself. It's like you heard The Doctor say "The Dream Lord was me" and tuned out after that, but that wasn't the end of the explanation. The Doctor says afterwards "Psychic pollen, it's a mind parasite. It feeds on everything dark in you, gives it a voice, turns it against you". The Dream Lord was what the pollen created latching onto The Doctor, based off his darkness. The Valeyard, conversely, is that darkness incarnate. Similar but different.
The second being my own words. *Obviously* The Valeyard is not the Meta-Crisis Doctor. I said "The Valeyard is closer in existence to something like the Meta-Crisis Doctor". The Valeyard is a fully physical being with their own autonomy and existence in reality.
The Dream Lord exists in a limited confine due to the pollen, when it is latched onto The Doctor. The Dream Lord is the pollen speaking and acting through a guise that suits the people around it. The Valeyard is the darker aspects of The Doctor given an offshoot form (akin to the Meta-Crisis Doctor having his own autonomy and existence in reality).
The only other way I can think to explain the concept as simply as I can is like having an AI creation of you via a computer (Dream Lord) versus a full clone with only certain aspects of your personality transferred over (Valeyard).
The Valeyard was made the same way as the Curator and the meta crisis doctor a lost Variant or a rouge Variant
holy crap I never noticed that it makes alot of sens why the Dream lord is considerd to be the Valeyard we need more of him he can even replace the master giving a new Vilian like how about the Valeyard or the dream lord being imortal like the doctor is since they are the doctors bad sides of him they would always exist with in the doctor thus he will never get rid of them always hunting him like the ghost of cristmas past always there at the back of the doctors mind lurking feeding of off his negative emotions trying to make the doctor do things that he wouldnt do otherwise like letting someone die on purpose thus he needs to confront his bad sides all of his pain and suffering in one entity that he needs to defeat but the doctor knows he cant get rid of the Valeyard aka the dreamlord just like that he needs to either contain it or accept it as a part of him and letting all this pent up anger out in one single move what that move might be well I dont want to spoil it.
Wow, that was one sentence
@@PenneySounds I tend to forget putting a . at each sentence.
Ok so, I've seen this happen alot so I'm gonna explain this
The Doctor has had 13 incarnations, 12 faces and 12 regenerations
We all know about the War Doctor so I won't go in-depth, but he is the 9th face and 9th incarnation which also makes him the 8th regeneration
Now 10 regenerated in Journey's End and kept the same face, so he's still the 11th face, however he DID regenerate and just siphoned the energy away so his face wouldn't change, meaning that Tennant is the 11th face, 12th incarnation, 11th regeneration and the 10th Doctor
It's not about his face, the Doctor DID regenerate he just kept the same face Matt's Doctor literally says "it was a regeneration" and he meant fully, it counted and therefore Tennant is 2 incarnations
10 used a second regeneration, but he didn't regenerate into a new incarnation
@@PenneySounds An incarnation is simple what comes out after the regeneration, it doesn't have to be a new body
@@novawolf_gaming It does though. That's what an incarnation is.
By your reasoning there are also two 11th Doctors. The one that regenerated from the 10th Doctor in "The End Of Time", and the one that was healed by River's regeneration energy in "Let's Kill Hitler". But you know full well that just using regeneration to heal is different from actually regenerating.
@@PenneySounds What? The one healed by River isn't related cuz the Doctor didn't regenerate
@@PenneySounds It HAS to be through regeneration not just using the energy
Dream Lord and Valyard ARE NOT THE SAME!
How so?
@@PenneySounds the Dreamlord literally explains who he is and so does the doctor as the clips stated above. He was nothing more than dark thoughts.
The Valyard is whole other regeneration. Plus the show runner even stated that the dream lord is based off the doctors guilt and shame as he isn't really vile. Whereas the Valyard is a more extreme version of the Master.
@@devonhopper7534 No, the Valeyard is not a regeneration. If he was simply an evil incarnation of the Doctor, he couldn't be from between incarnations. The Master's description rules out the Valeyard being a regeneration.
@@PenneySounds he is explaining who the Valyard is in the same sense of how the half human half timelord 10th Doctor. Not to mention in the 6th Doctor episodes Trial of a Timelord the valyard has a physical body and when asked how he got it he explained how he had to use the regeneration energy to form a new body. Which means, he was already one of the many incarnations of the doctors inside of the body before they become the next doctor. Like how the Watcher fused with to become 5th doctor.
So yes, he is a regeneration of the doctor who just used the energy of the regeneration to form a body, just like 10 did. Which we know counts because 10 stayed 10 BECAUSE of the his extra hand.
@@devonhopper7534 I can find absolutely no reference in "Trial" to how the Valeyard got a body
Honestly the Valeyard is a boogeyman. Existed pre Time War and excised to fight. But he still lingers as a memory to haunt the Doctor about… What If…