I know we are so used to purchasing our values under capitalism, but… lowkey who cares if there’s one less sausage option? I don’t. I’ve been vegan since I was a literal child, and I have made lots of vegans who’ve gone on to make other vegans. Idgaf if Kraft continues those baller Notco slices, I’ll keep makin vegans.
Well said, 1/2 the reason I went vegan was for my own health and a lot of those products like beyond burger are not healthy anyway. They didn’t exist when I first went vegan and I rarely have them now. Plant based whole food doesn’t have a industry to support. The way products in the vegan industry were hyped, commercialized and over speculated on reminds me of the legal cannabis industry in CA.
There are more things on the shelves at my local stores every week and a lot of them are on sale most of the time. That being said, when tofu is $1.99 and two impossible patties are $9.99, it's hard to justify buying something that is so much more expensive.
Plus the tofu is much better for you than the fake meat. I like that there are all these vegan alternatives out there but I feel that any vegan who knows anything about nutrition generally doesn't buy these products! As a whole food vegan about the wildest thing I ever eat are vegan Lincolnshire sausages.
Yes, and.... i don't think the awareness is growing at a rate that it's actually achieving much. And i think that's why we as activists need to switch up our strategies.
Well, I’m carnivore since 7 years now and I see these community growing fast and once carnivore o keto you don’t go back but vegans are unstable, no everyone is willing to suffer. You kill the potato beetle to eat the potatoes but I kill the cow to eat the meat.
Thank you so much for naming the obvious here. Capitalism atomizes our social institutions (hotbeds for organizing) and it commodifies. It requires a constant supply of poor and desperate people to produce more and more and more. In that context, and adding in industry misinformation, it's hard to imagine a world of vegans. Most of us don't have the agency to choose anything different than what's been subsidized for us. The system is the problem. Individual virtue is good. Keep being vegan. But we can't pretend we can do this without literally altering the fundamental incentive structure here.
Yeah it’s disappointing about brands pulling vegan products, even though a lot of them were I’ll thought out and even shit there presence in the market place generated awareness and conversation, but they were only ever here for the money… and the morality that drives most vegans also means a lot of them avoid processed fake products too, so the companies making that shit were never getting the hardcore vegan dollar anyway
@@juricadogan3870 you like plants.. then you should go vegan...cuz less are killed when you're vegan.. it's becuz of 10% law! Also, plants are not sentient!
I appreciate your videos so much, I used to work for one big Vegan activist and through the years everything you say here holds completely true, and everything is cought in a weird type of branding activism design only to trend a lifestyle that feeds capitalist hunger where the main point gets completely lost and animal suffering is reduced to a marketing strategy, anyway... great video, and I am pro beard definitely.
Not by business, but the beard suits you; makes you look sagacious. I don't like the framing in the title, because it implies that this life philosophy is a fad. I've read too many direct an-ag advertorials at The Graun to trust their takes on veganism. As someone who knows UK vegans, I attribute this decline to over-saturation. The UK literally has a food replacement for everything in triplicate. Nobody needs 8 brands of vegan bacon, so retrenchment is to be expected. What I hear from UK vegans is that the variety of non-food items that are becoming animal-free is increasing, and the demographic for those is likely people who hate that bunnies are tortured for hand cream, rather than vegans. As you say, it's the intersection of non-vegans concerned about animal rights and us. It's something I'm paying attention to, because consumerism is not going away anytime soon and we have to be nimble about exploiting its effects. Thanks for posting!
Whether it's Green Capitalism or Plant-Based Capitalism, neither will deliver the planet or the animals who are suffering on it from exploitation. The central motivator in a Capitalist economy is profits. That's it, nothing more. I switched my advocacy from Veganism to Marxism as I think that the only way to deliver us from ecological and ethical devastation is to remove the profit motive from the relations of production and get rid of Capitalism as our economic system. I know this wont happen in my lifetime, but I'm willing to dedicate my life to the revolution and do the groundwork, so future generations of workers will be able to take the wealth stolen from them and seize the means and modes of production to be held in common for the benefit of all conscious creatures. I believe that would eventually include non-human animals given time and work to raise class consciousness.
Please do not dedicate your life to a revolution that has come and gone. Honour past struggles by evolving into the future. Marxism on it's own has proved to be not dynamic enough to change the capitalist system. That is, a force of creative energy capable of phasing out and replacing the system that we have now. What we need to do is get the Marxists to go vegan, the Christians to go vegan, the Muslims to go vegan, and we need the capitalists to go vegan. Why are so many Marxists and supposedly left wing people not vegan? The answer: Because they are capitalists! These people are just as greedy and selfish as the capitalists. They need to go vegan. That is the revolution.🌱
So much this. You succinctly articulated what’s been in my head for a while now, thank you. I would very much like to have an actual conversation with you re: your switch of advocacy from Veganism to Marxism, though. Any way we can get connected outside of this comment thread? Appreciate it!
I think so… I have been noticed that since inflation kicked in, the amount of vegan food choices in my grocery stores have been reduced drastically. They even took my pb ice creams away!!!
I'm in Warsaw, Poland, and have been noticing the same trends in my local markets, unfortunately. However, there are so many a so so products on the shelves that some of them will not survive due to a natural lack of demand. I believe, with the passage of time, there will emerge talented vegan chefs, who will become professionals, whose products will be more palatable and so more desired. 😃
I agree with everything. I think oversaturation and the economy/pricing are such driving factors, especially for vegans or plant based eaters. I may try a couple of different types of burgers, nuggets, etc but then I typically just stick to my favorites and stock up when they’re on sale or found at a discount store. I’ve also seen the same thing happening in restaurants, as both chains and some mom and pops are withdrawing their vegan options. Dell Taco and Panda Express are two of the larger ones. Fast Food has gotten so much more pricy that it doesn’t cost much more to get good vegan tacos from a vegan spot over Dell Taco and with such a simple product, it’s easy and cheaper to make at home. (It does stink to lose the options in places where there aren’t many though!!!). As a meat eater, one would be less likely to branch out and try a vegan option at a higher price during tough economic times. It’s truly sad to see but given the circumstances it seems easy to understand. I DEFINITELY am not counting on capitalism or meat replacement offerings to be the key to ending animal exploitation but having these products can be helpful. Hopefully it’s more of the larger bandwagon jumping companies that are throwing in the towel versus vegan companies who are honing in on making quality plant based products (hopefully in as ethical a manner as possible). I also think growth in veganism in the US may remain stagnant for a bit due to the political climate (or, more bluntly, the rise of fascism). These are truly scary times and the focus needs to be on helping out our communities and protecting folks who are facing oppression. I think most vegans see the connection of oppressions and how this is all tied together via Capitalism and white supremacy but pushing veganism whilst folks are suffering can be both insensitive and damaging. I’m really hoping we can come together to fight for a safe and equitable future for all. ❤
@Bitterkind 💯 Absolutely agree with you. I don’t think I fully explained - I just think we need to avoid pushing. Unfortunately there’s been examples in recent years of vegans co-opting or criticizing other social justice movements in very blunt and non-intersectional ways. I definitely think it’s possible for there to be a more subtle and compassionate way to convey the connections. I think actually just showing up as vegans to fight for and protect others can help dispel that we’re a single issue movement, though the visibility of course should just be a byproduct of doing the right thing. ❤️
Yes to lots of that! I would suggest that the stagnation of veganism in the US has been going on since I went vegan in 1995. We've always been about 1-2%. And of course the political climate has been crap for that long (and longer) as well - but i think there's more at play here.
It’s sad that it seems most people see veganism as a trend. I know you addressed it in the video but damn am I ever hung up on the wording. It’s telling that there’s a "vegan bubble" like as if you wake up one day and find your ethics deflated.. wtf.
From my own experience, all of these meat alternatives are too expensive during a cost of living crisis. Meat is subsidised and made cheaper, while meat alternatives have got more expensive. My family and I don't eat them that often, opting for whole foods, but on the occasions when we would have bought them we've had to rethink and assess if we can actually afford a plant based mince when we have dried lentils in the cupboard. It's a shame, and I wish something could be don't to make them more affordable.
Though I truly love and empathize with animals, I was a committed carnivore foodie, as well as being addicted to other unhealthy foods; salt, sugar, etc. My candid former view of veganism was that many were into it, to be hip and trendy. Then, I had a catastrophic health event. The ethics-challenged "healthcare" system just wanted to do radical surgery and medication. Though my condition is severe, I did not want the surgery, wanted to limit my medications to the bare minimum and take a holistic approach. I recognized that if I wanted to continue to live, it was pretty much, entirely, up to me and I would need to act quickly and decisively. I did a deep research dive; talked to everybody I could, read everything I could find and did a lot of processing. Fortunately, I'm pretty good at filtering the various types and levels of misinformation and disinformation, that has so inundated related subject matter. I came to the conclusion that a plant-based diet, along with other healthy changes, represented the only viable, yet, faint hope. I turned my life around on a dime; switched to a vegan diet, increased the consistency of my exercise routine, learned to manage stress better, along with other lifestyle changes. Thanks to an increasing number of vegan cookbooks, YT videos, etc., I was able to creatively navigate the daunting challenges of learning a whole new way to cook, eat and live. It's been nearly two years and I'm still alive, for now. I've lost 80 lbs, thus far, (slowly, so I can maintain), and have gradually begun to feel better on a more consistent basis. My monitoring markers and numbers have improved too. To be honest, my execution of my plan has not been perfect and there have been lots of stumbles on the way. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't admit that individual physiology varies. My doctors are surprised that I'm even up, walking around, given my recent history. So, I firmly believe in the vegan lifestyle for reasons that may not be shared or completely understood by many. Now, to the original question, "Has The Vegan Bubble Burst?" Imho, for those to whom it is merely a bubble, its momentum may have temporarily slowed. Cycles will come, go and repeat. Trend seekers and hipsters will move on. The corporate news media will discover or manufacture another "craze" to co-opt. Commercial interests will find other ways to exploit the masses. There will be powerful interests, who mightily resist healthy change. Meanwhile, our majority diet and lifestyle will continue to make more of us very sick. Fortunately younger people, trans-boomer), seem to possess a greater awareness, thus respecting, if not, embracing veganism. As the younger generations age, they'll only come to a sharper realization of the value and fragility of good health and how it must be our foundational priority. Assuming that our world survives the other profoundly existential ravages of late-stage capitalism, I believe veganism will survive and thrive.
I was excited to see all the products at first but having tried them, I realised how expensive it was getting. I rather just cook with Tofu and TVP, cheaper and more versitile.
All the internet pro-exploitation trolls are clapping their hands at this because they're too uninformed to know the difference between plant-based capitalism and actual veganism. Meanwhile veganism continues on :)
I don't think the world is going to go vegan for animal rights reasons. Because frankly, most people don't care about animal rights. They don't see the suffering, don't want to see it. Most people are willing to change over environmental reesons. Why? Because that is affecting their own individual bottom line. Produce is becoming more expensive because of the energy crisis, everyone feels that in their wallet.
Hello. I agree with the points you're making in this video but as someone who isn't that familiar with your channel, what do you think vegans should be doing to promote veganism as a social justice movement? You offered no alternative strategies or solutions at the end.
I have 250 videos on my channel. Most of them offer alternative strategies. I also have been giving lectures and trainings and workshops literally around the world for the last 7 years on alternative strategies. Respectfully, you gotta just look a little. I would suggest starting with the playlist Are We Winning, Season 03
I personally think yes the market is more and more saturated (at least in Europe and North America - a vegan heaven imo), because there are a lot of smaller companies, which I believe vegans prefer to support (esp. in regard to local, organic produce) and not these multimillion $ tncs... Btw: vegan capitalism is basically the only way to attract people to veganism in many Asian countries, e.g., South Korea where I study the progress of veganism - sad but true; ppl see veganism as a trend/diet to improve their own health and mostly do not think about the (wellbeing of) animals
A random lady in the grocery store says she wont eat soy, but never researched it, just heard it is bad. So she buys chicken nuggets. Everyone usually talks about health and taste.
This is totally how it is for most people! Exactly! This is how status quo bias works. Unless assumptions are challenged, the path of least resistance is paved in silence.
We could probably get a more accurate gauge on the buying power of vegans by looking at sales of nooch, TVP, vegan ice cream and oh the sales of plant milk in shitty cafes that have an extra charge in place for them. (Still hung up on the wording 😅)
The vegan bubble burst? Only if the number of vegans went down. Plant based products aren't required to be vegan. Whole foods, and minimally processed foods like tofu and tempeh are all we need to thrive long term.
@@thecrankyvegan Temporary plateau? I am hoping that when inflation comes down, more people will see veganism as a viable option for them since they don't want to go whole food plant based.
Wouldn't it make a lot more sense that since the UK is going through an energy crisis and a cost of living crisis that people simply cannot afford luxury brands? Plant-based meats are expensive as fuck and if you're a regular person trying to make ends meet, you're not going to waste money on beyond meat when you can get the heavily subsidized animal carcass for half the price. As soon as the economy recovers and there's another boom, I guarantee we're going to see plant-based meats rise in popularity again. There's no point in psychoanalyzing things like this when the issue can be easily explained by the bottom line.
You speak a lot of sense mate 😎. The 'boom' has not been in new vegans but in bovine excrementarians with flexible wallets, desirous of looking cool and planetarily in touch, who will return once the squeezing pincers relax. There are however still a number of vegan products around in the UK that are not that expensive which can keep junk foodies like me going during the slump. 😎
I'm in the UK. At least real vegan food will never be cut back ie, fruits, veggies, legumes, beans ect. I never cared for over expensive food just because it has the label vegan on it. A lot of them are a rip off and I've found as a consequence a lot of people I speak to think processed vegan food is only what we can eat. Of course I'm not against these foods, I have the odd Linda McCartney burger ect but I do think there are less people who are vegan than we are less to believe. As sad as it is, at the moment, I still feel not that many people are changing to a vegan lifestyle.
Perhaps there is also more of a worldwide spread. For instance, I used to live in the Netherlands and anything remotely vegan was really hard to find, but in recent years there has been an explosion of vegan establishments in most if not all cities. Same in Germany. Maybe it's just that the UK is not such an epicentre. Maybe too veganism is maturing. There is no doubt that in roughly the last 5 or so years, veganism has become far more popular. In my experience, the products you talk about tend to be the ones that are something lots of people choose initially as recognisable alternatives but then most people migrate to more whole foods like veggies, beans, etc. Not least because that is cheaper and we know how people are struggling. Further on the cost of living, I believe that these meat alternatives are something like 90% consumed by non-vegans, so, the fact that they are generally more expensive than the animal ones, might mean more non-vegans moving away from them.
I live in Australia and there are more than enough vegan options. I prepare all my foods fresh and occasionally I will grab a Beyond burger for a treat. More new vegan products hit the shelfs across our supermarkets regularly. There are no bubbles bursting down under. 😊
I think mamy vegans know how to make good vegan food, so they won't disappear just because some vegan food option does. Besides, making your own is usually healthier. I made a salat today, where I mixed fried mushrooms, baked chickpeas, vaked sweet potato and barley groats cooked with mushroom- and vegetable stock. Added fresh tomato. Because of the different seasonings in this, no meat was required. As long as there is seasoning, eating plant-based can be very possivle 😁👍 BTW, not supporting brands like Nestle isn't bad - they're a horrible brand. Also, as long as there's tea, coffee, kombucha...water, oat milks... I mean: there's plenty of stuff to drink. Oatly one is sad though :/ Although, I'm not sure whether ultra-processed is the problem here
I think most people want something to taste good and be easily accessible and convenient to prepare. So yes to the plant based whole foods route. But I don't think that's whats going to win over a huge chunk of the population unfortunately.
We don't need these faux products to be vegan. I live in Tijuana, Mexico where the faux products are more expensive still. I eat so much more healthier here than in the US. I'd also rather spend that extra money on animal advocacy and sanctuaries anyway. Let these corporations who tried to exploit us fail. The movement is still here with or without yet another vegan nugget.
When I first started being vegan, I was buying all the mock meats, cheeses, etc, but now that I've learned how to cook and experimented with creative cooking from scratch, I really don't see a need to buy all that stuff. I prefer to buy less processed foods and make things from scratch. I still buy vegan butter and beyond/impossible when its half off And I'm trying to prioritize local products when I can, as well, I would rather pay a premium for quality than scientific Frankenstein food
The issue is that foods like fake meats, fake cheeses etc.. don't appeal to both a lot of vegans and almost all meat eaters. Vegans tend to be very health conscious and choose to eat mainly whole foods. Also, you tend to lose the taste for meat, cheese etc.. after some time. I prefer vegetable patties over fake meat patties any day and I'm 11 years vegan. Meat eaters can taste the difference and want the "real stuff". Fake meats just don't convince them. So, the only group that may be convinced by meat replacements are people who are switching to a vegetarian/vegan diet. It might help as something that temporarily helps with cravings for meat, but I don't think most people will continue to consume them long term after they've gone vegan. I don't know any vegan who regularly eats meat replacements. Most vegans tend to be very health conscious as I've already said, and unprocessed foods are just not attractive enough. Eventually you start dislikung the artificial taste. The only exception is plant milks which are doing great, but that is because they serve an actual purpose since they can be very useful when cooking. Also, plant milks individually can taste great and tend to not try to mimic the taste of milk.
@Rick "I don't know any vegan who regularly eats meat replacements." Well you do now mate 😎- 30 year vegan. "Vegans tend to be very health conscious and choose to eat mainly whole foods" Vegans "tend" to not want animals to be harmed. Health is a separate issue. Vegans for health are the ones who invariably fall off the wagon because it's all about them, not about the animals. "It might help as something that temporarily helps with cravings for meat, but I don't think most people will continue to consume them long term after they've gone vegan." What do you base your insights on?
@Jonah Whale It was mediocre Jonah as was mine probably, but how did you lose your sense of humour mate? Was the winking smiley not enough of a signal?
@Jonah Whale "Screw this getting to call yourself one on day one, & then crapping on the scene two years later." Better to focus on the stuff we can control mate, such as the content we put out, rather than get too side tracked with the self absorbed. You planning on making any vids any time soon and if so on what topics?
Finally found space to watch this episode. I think this is such an important conversation to start. No radical justice movement can capitalist its way to success. The core systems aren’t compatible.
Are we taking into account people may also be avoiding processed foods as well. I try and avoid supporting companies that harm animals but profit from plant based alternatives. If they stop selling vegetables, lentils and chickpeas then I think I may start to worry.
I am reductarian.. We have gone 1 year using only plant milk in our household, but then I got laid off and here where I live plant milk is 3 times more expensive than cows milk, it is pretty crazy. So that went out the window.. :( on the brighter side, more dried legumes dishes. Cheap and healthy. Also homemade cashew cream cheese is more cheap than the real thing, if cashews are on sale and I buy the "ugly ones"
I’m able to make great tasting food from rice, beans, and whole grains. Occasionally I’ll buy a vegan junk food like a beyond burger or vegan sausage but I prefer the vegan Whole Foods that are healthy and inexpensive.
This is all about the food Industry… Well vegans eat plants, so The Industry can only make money delivering Plants. They don’t like that! But life is tough! Eat plants!
I make a baller black bean burger. Something like a Beyond or Impossible burger is nice once in a while, but if sales are slumping here in the US, it's because the price is too high and there are cheaper options if this truly is the way you eat. Or, you know, if you just put a little effort into checking them out.
I idea of the “bubble” is an interesting one - meaning hype and hyperbole. Vegan organizations have indeed created some of that, like we even heard in this video. Expensive specialty products also gave the impression that veganism is only for the rich and privileged. I’d pay a premium for the odd vegan treat but the staples need to be cheap, and they are.
Ok so many things here but there are quite a few GLARING blind spots in the vegan movement and the biggest one of all is CLASS 1. Veganism is seen and kind of is more PMC and not a working class movement. Let’s also be clear here, class is more than $ earned per year. Class is income mixed with local culture, type of employment, education level. A construction tradesman probably makes way more money than some folks with a liberal arts degree in something related to sociology or whatever but they are in 2 different classes. Veganism has a huge blind spot around class and class cultures. Meat/animal products is a big part of culture and veganism is seen as outside the realm of what many groups connect with. It also doesn’t help that vegan alts are generally pretty expensive an actually marketed towards the PMC. Veganism needs to be able to reach the “average Joe” Not the fuckin indie artsy dude in a band Not the liberal girl who studied anthropology and has an Etsy shop making social justice stickers It needs to be able to be accessible, not just price wise, for your average working class person- the tradesman, the retail worker, the warehouse stocker. It needs to portray multiple Aesthetics that invite people in. Many vegans restaurants I see don’t do those Im not saying there’s no vegans who work jobs like these. But by and large vegans and vegan orgs are run by the opposite of these folks. Many can say they don’t have time to care when they have more pressing things. Not to mention again that culture- grillin, fishin, eating wings at sports games, etc there’s are all 😂highly engrained in our still heavily masculine (masculine-parody really) culture. Veganism has to become cool and tough. Veganism is seen as lame and weak. 2. Meat Alts might not be the only metric Meat alt dips shouldn’t be the sole metric you look at. It should be meat purchasing. As meat alts drop, have meat sales dropped? Remained steady? Increased? Sometimes folks say these products are not an everyday thing or for “transition” I eat meat alts but not always on a daily basis. I would say 70% of my meals are Whole foods based. 3. Animals were never the focus and that doesn’t sell. The boom in PB alts has almost solely been marketed around 2 things- Environment/climate change Health Animals were barely if at all in the equation. To the extent animals are in the equation gave rise to the “humane certified” “grass fed” “pasture raised” “free range” labels. This was the extent consumers were willing to go because “happy animals taste better.” It always came back to health. The welfare of an animal was predicated on whether that would be a better outcome for the consumer after eating it. Generally health food focuses have shifted to eating more plants but not excluding animals. People may initially been drawn to PB meats around them being healthy. One of the drawbacks that PB meats shot themselves in the foot with was exclaiming that their products were objectively healthy. They walked into east criticism around processing, the use of soy and gluten (the current feared foods), the binders, the “stretchy laundry list of unpronounceable ingredients.” They did that to themselves. Is it healthier than animal meat? Probably. Should it have been marketed that way? No. A Burger isn’t healthy plant based or not.. and that’s fine. It doesn’t have to be. It gives people a false impression that anything made from plants is healthy which almost sounds like a con. PB meats also target environment. Environment/climate change sits well with millennial and Gen z consumers but a big crux of the messaging around climate change is that we need to reduce. Not eliminate. Therefore some folks may supplement with these products but not entirely. Almost everyone I know uses plant based milk for coffee. But they all still bake and cook with cow milk. Some will eat a veggie dog but still eat chicken. These PB products have been integrated but not used fully in place of becsuse people still don’t seem to think it can be done and also it can take quite a while to find the alternative that you enjoy. Not every store has things that may have that product that could satisfy you. And it can rack up. Buying a mediocre or inedible product for a lot of money and having to keep doing that? Only a vegan already committed is going to keep spending money to try things or go around to different stores that carry a particular brand. The long and short of it is that while vegan OPTIONS have become more accessible and mainstream, veganism is still not accessible, monetarily and culturally. I think vegans do a disservice by believing “we” are anywhere near a vegan world and tbh a vegan world is unlikely to ever happen. The only thing I think is to put your stock in cell-cultured meat and dairy. Yes vegan numbers will grow but it will likely remain a small % of end overall population. Any reduction in animal death is great and yet reduction still also mean it continues.
@jonahwhale9047The US is a one of the larger meat producers and consumers. So yes my response is particular to that. However your response was exactly what I was talking about. Hippies punks squatters and alternative communities are not the majority of “the average Joe working class” Veganism needs to leap out of both the counter culture circles and out of the PMC. And while some of that has to do with costs, the majority of it has to do with cultural adaptation, messaging and aesthetics.
Correlation is not causation, right? There are more and more vegans every day, whether that reflects in the number of vegan products being sold at stores or not
I'm not so sure about correlation is not causation in this case. And yeah, there are more new vegans every day, but there are way more new omnivores every day. So we aren't really making any headway. And corporations I think see that reflecting in their numbers.
I like a lot about the take, but I find it very surprising that you seem to suggest focusing on "ethics" in response to the problem of corporate domination of society / capitalism. I would have thought that focusing on campaigns that directly pressure corporations, campaigning for pro-animal / plant-based government and public institutional policy, and using the legal system for animals / plant-based goals are more matters of sound campaign and political strategy than "ethics." Sitting around talking about your ethics does nothing to oppose corporate rule, and I suspect that the ghouls who own the shares would very much like you to do that.
Very well articulated. While some online Vegans crucify each other over semantic points, the movement needs to focus squarely on political action- get rid of subsidies, make corporations pay for environmental externalities etc Tax payers are subsidising animal cruelty
The foundation of animal liberation is rooted in the ethics of social justice. If we don't have that as the core foundation of the movement, the movement will continue to be a place people can jump in and out of, monetize, and be littered with right wing people. We are seeing that happen. So obviously yes to pressure campaigns, action, shifting systems. But that work isn't going to be organized and strategized by people without some sense of ethics.
@@thecrankyvegan Reasonable people/ philosophers have argued about ‘The correct’ normative ethic approach since time immemorial Witness all the different ethical & political schools of thought. Pragmatic politics based on justice as fairness rather than the narrower social justice
I went vegan 3 years ago for my health but slowly started thinking about animals as well. I tried lots of vegan products and some were good, some were bad. I’ve settled on the few products that I really enjoy but mostly try to eat Whole Foods. Potatoes rice beans salads etc. My family are omnivores but have significantly reduced the amount of meat they eat because of me.
as someone who has never been a vegan and who doesn't even think of ever becoming a vegan, I have to admit that I like your down-to-earth analysis; the dose of self-criticism and reflection is rather extremely uncommon for a vegan channel. I hope the vegan community learned the lesson
Thanks. I think regardless of what your issue is or you're just figuring out how to make it, you have to be smart and strategic and that has a lot to do with being self-reflective and having difficult conversations.
The vegan bubble has burst. But I believe these big companies as you said don’t come with the same ethic in mind which is to “minimize suffering”. Again as you said impossible in a world of capitalism where we vote with our dollar. But that reminded me of something, remember when dairy farms were essentially going bankrupt because of the vegan movement and the rise in nut milks. I believe the only reason that was the case because we have multiple brands vegan and not competing in the same market. But something like a burger that actually tastes like meat you really only have two options. Beyond and impossible. (Personally I think Beyond burgers are disgusting)so that already eliminates one option. We need to corner the market and focus on one specific item ( and actually taste good and it has to be affordable)but multiple companies need to work together for this otherwise it will never happen on a grand scale.
I see your point. But I think when you dive into the milk issue it's not as clean cut as "because of the vegan movement". In fact, I think it had very little to do with us. From what I've read it has a lot to do with people turning to sports drinks and energy drinks and bottled waters and yes, plant milks. But not because they came around to an ethical argument. But more because lactose intolerance and health and environment became more of a factor.
@@thecrankyvegan ahh okay good to know. But I think that’s the point asking a single person to give up animal products in its entirety isn’t really feasible let alone just one animal product it it’s entirely given the structure we have now.
vegans are many and strong when they all come together. what we really need to find is a way to do it. and we did't find it because we listen to the nose and not to the cause.
im a vegan, but i don't consume any of these products. i always advocate for whole foods vegan diet. i think the vegan movement should promote overcoming your taste cravings, instead of trying to replace them with processed crap. this is obv better for health, but arguably this is a more effective approach than protesting animal agriculture. if we can get everyone to have no desire for meat there will naturally be no slaughter
"i think the vegan movement should promote overcoming your taste cravings, instead of trying to replace them with processed crap." I think we should advocate for not eating animal flesh, eggs or dairy.
@@maggot1111666 Who said anything about "creating alternative dependencies". I just think the approach you favour overcomplicates matters, has no chance of success, and almost sounds designed to fail. But let's see, you say "arguably this is a more effective approach than protesting animal agriculture." Please present your case. Veganism is not about what we eat, it's about *who* we don't. If I have missed something then please wise me up.
@@EarthPoets walk up to a heroine addict and say, "stop doing heroine, its morally wrong." that won't be very effective. walk up a heroine addict and say "stop doing heroine, its morally wrong, and ill give this mock heroine that is 80% as good." that won't be very effective either. walk up to a heroine addict and say, "I will give you a process to get rid of your heroine addiction altogether." then they won't ever seek anything resembling heroine ever again
@@maggot1111666 Only chance of it working is if they are desperate to give up - and most aren't. I was hoping you'd elaborate on your claim that arguably this is a more effective approach than protesting animal agriculture." You aren't going to continue letting me down are you?
Have you been on holiday lately? 'your face' It's good you got time for yourself while you are fighting for animals. I wish I had that time! Instead I'm under attack 24/7 with no time for rest. I'm sick and tired about the ones that are not seriously committed to this vital moral issue. I expected much more. Nothing personal by the way! Take care.👽🗡️
Google trends shows a massive drop in interest in the word veganism. Down to levels where it was at 10 years ago. I think it is time to question your ideals. Are you really for the farm animals when you oppose their existence?
"Oppose their existence?" As in the idea that they would go extinct if animal agriculture ended? Wouldn't you rather not exist than to live a life of suffering? I personally wouldn't mind if they eventually disappeared, since they were basically created for profit via selective breeding. I would rather see the wild animals they came from took their place, which could happen with all the extra land and forests. A fully plant based food system would need 75% less land!
@@someguy2135 vegansim systematically seeks massive reductions of farm animal existence. Farming here opposes suffering. It is a wonderful thing for their kind. You seem to misunderstand the motivations behind farming.
@@deanecarson2837 You- "Farming here opposes suffering." Where you are may be the exception to the rule, but here in the USA, 99% of meat in stores and restaurants are from factory farms. The motivation for farming is profit. The motivation for farm animal sanctuaries is to oppose suffering. Even the least cruel farms needlessly kill for profit, and maximizing profit generally involves cruel treatment.
@@deanecarson2837 You’re such a philanthropist bring beings into existence for you to exploit. Can I bring members of your family into existence so that they could toil on my property all day long? After all I granted them a life. In time they may even appreciate it
@jonahwhale9047 The voice of reason! Thank you for saying so. There is a philosopher whose name escapes me who said that the best way to design a humane system is to imagine that you could be born as any sentient being who would be part of that system. The system of food production, for example. If you knew you could be born a cow or pig, how would you design a system of food production?
I know we are so used to purchasing our values under capitalism, but… lowkey who cares if there’s one less sausage option? I don’t. I’ve been vegan since I was a literal child, and I have made lots of vegans who’ve gone on to make other vegans. Idgaf if Kraft continues those baller Notco slices, I’ll keep makin vegans.
Based
LITERALLY. We don’t need all this flashy bullshit. It doesn’t win people over at the end of the day.
Well said, 1/2 the reason I went vegan was for my own health and a lot of those products like beyond burger are not healthy anyway. They didn’t exist when I first went vegan and I rarely have them now. Plant based whole food doesn’t have a industry to support. The way products in the vegan industry were hyped, commercialized and over speculated on reminds me of the legal cannabis industry in CA.
There are more things on the shelves at my local stores every week and a lot of them are on sale most of the time. That being said, when tofu is $1.99 and two impossible patties are $9.99, it's hard to justify buying something that is so much more expensive.
Plus the tofu is much better for you than the fake meat. I like that there are all these vegan alternatives out there but I feel that any vegan who knows anything about nutrition generally doesn't buy these products! As a whole food vegan about the wildest thing I ever eat are vegan Lincolnshire sausages.
Bulk tofu $1.69 a brick at Costco
Not a jot of it. Veganism isn't about particular foods or food trends. It's about the animals, and that awareness will continue to grow.
Yes, and.... i don't think the awareness is growing at a rate that it's actually achieving much. And i think that's why we as activists need to switch up our strategies.
Well, I’m carnivore since 7 years now and I see these community growing fast and once carnivore o keto you don’t go back but vegans are unstable, no everyone is willing to suffer. You kill the potato beetle to eat the potatoes but I kill the cow to eat the meat.
Im in the UK and the products mentioned arent that great, and they are really costly.
We find our favourites within our price point and stick to it.
Thank you so much for naming the obvious here. Capitalism atomizes our social institutions (hotbeds for organizing) and it commodifies. It requires a constant supply of poor and desperate people to produce more and more and more. In that context, and adding in industry misinformation, it's hard to imagine a world of vegans. Most of us don't have the agency to choose anything different than what's been subsidized for us. The system is the problem. Individual virtue is good. Keep being vegan. But we can't pretend we can do this without literally altering the fundamental incentive structure here.
Truth.
Literally altering fundamental incentive structure 😭
Focus on animal rights, the diet is simply a byproduct of vegan ethics
24 years Vegan. Cant burst this. 😊
Veganism isn't about a trend or special foods it's about the animals so if you're really committed to it and you'll stay vegan
But what if you like plants equally, as I do? Should I just stop eating altogether?
@@juricadogan3870 No you have to keep eating You just don't eat animals
@@juricadogan3870 breatharianism 😂
Yeah it’s disappointing about brands pulling vegan products, even though a lot of them were I’ll thought out and even shit there presence in the market place generated awareness and conversation, but they were only ever here for the money… and the morality that drives most vegans also means a lot of them avoid processed fake products too, so the companies making that shit were never getting the hardcore vegan dollar anyway
@@juricadogan3870 you like plants.. then you should go vegan...cuz less are killed when you're vegan.. it's becuz of 10% law!
Also, plants are not sentient!
I appreciate your videos so much, I used to work for one big Vegan activist and through the years everything you say here holds completely true, and everything is cought in a weird type of branding activism design only to trend a lifestyle that feeds capitalist hunger where the main point gets completely lost and animal suffering is reduced to a marketing strategy, anyway... great video, and I am pro beard definitely.
thank ya!
Not by business, but the beard suits you; makes you look sagacious. I don't like the framing in the title, because it implies that this life philosophy is a fad. I've read too many direct an-ag advertorials at The Graun to trust their takes on veganism. As someone who knows UK vegans, I attribute this decline to over-saturation. The UK literally has a food replacement for everything in triplicate. Nobody needs 8 brands of vegan bacon, so retrenchment is to be expected. What I hear from UK vegans is that the variety of non-food items that are becoming animal-free is increasing, and the demographic for those is likely people who hate that bunnies are tortured for hand cream, rather than vegans. As you say, it's the intersection of non-vegans concerned about animal rights and us. It's something I'm paying attention to, because consumerism is not going away anytime soon and we have to be nimble about exploiting its effects. Thanks for posting!
Something about the beard and the lights being off gave this a delightfully nihilistic vibe... love it!
Whether it's Green Capitalism or Plant-Based Capitalism, neither will deliver the planet or the animals who are suffering on it from exploitation. The central motivator in a Capitalist economy is profits. That's it, nothing more. I switched my advocacy from Veganism to Marxism as I think that the only way to deliver us from ecological and ethical devastation is to remove the profit motive from the relations of production and get rid of Capitalism as our economic system.
I know this wont happen in my lifetime, but I'm willing to dedicate my life to the revolution and do the groundwork, so future generations of workers will be able to take the wealth stolen from them and seize the means and modes of production to be held in common for the benefit of all conscious creatures. I believe that would eventually include non-human animals given time and work to raise class consciousness.
Please do not dedicate your life to a revolution that has come and gone. Honour past struggles by evolving into the future. Marxism on it's own has proved to be not dynamic enough to change the capitalist system. That is, a force of creative energy capable of phasing out and replacing the system that we have now. What we need to do is get the Marxists to go vegan, the Christians to go vegan, the Muslims to go vegan, and we need the capitalists to go vegan. Why are so many Marxists and supposedly left wing people not vegan? The answer: Because they are capitalists! These people are just as greedy and selfish as the capitalists. They need to go vegan. That is the revolution.🌱
So much this. You succinctly articulated what’s been in my head for a while now, thank you. I would very much like to have an actual conversation with you re: your switch of advocacy from Veganism to Marxism, though. Any way we can get connected outside of this comment thread? Appreciate it!
I think so… I have been noticed that since inflation kicked in, the amount of vegan food choices in my grocery stores have been reduced drastically. They even took my pb ice creams away!!!
I'm in Warsaw, Poland, and have been noticing the same trends in my local markets, unfortunately. However, there are so many a so so products on the shelves that some of them will not survive due to a natural lack of demand. I believe, with the passage of time, there will emerge talented vegan chefs, who will become professionals, whose products will be more palatable and so more desired. 😃
I agree with everything. I think oversaturation and the economy/pricing are such driving factors, especially for vegans or plant based eaters. I may try a couple of different types of burgers, nuggets, etc but then I typically just stick to my favorites and stock up when they’re on sale or found at a discount store. I’ve also seen the same thing happening in restaurants, as both chains and some mom and pops are withdrawing their vegan options. Dell Taco and Panda Express are two of the larger ones. Fast Food has gotten so much more pricy that it doesn’t cost much more to get good vegan tacos from a vegan spot over Dell Taco and with such a simple product, it’s easy and cheaper to make at home. (It does stink to lose the options in places where there aren’t many though!!!). As a meat eater, one would be less likely to branch out and try a vegan option at a higher price during tough economic times.
It’s truly sad to see but given the circumstances it seems easy to understand. I DEFINITELY am not counting on capitalism or meat replacement offerings to be the key to ending animal exploitation but having these products can be helpful. Hopefully it’s more of the larger bandwagon jumping companies that are throwing in the towel versus vegan companies who are honing in on making quality plant based products (hopefully in as ethical a manner as possible).
I also think growth in veganism in the US may remain stagnant for a bit due to the political climate (or, more bluntly, the rise of fascism). These are truly scary times and the focus needs to be on helping out our communities and protecting folks who are facing oppression. I think most vegans see the connection of oppressions and how this is all tied together via Capitalism and white supremacy but pushing veganism whilst folks are suffering can be both insensitive and damaging. I’m really hoping we can come together to fight for a safe and equitable future for all. ❤
@Bitterkind 💯 Absolutely agree with you. I don’t think I fully explained - I just think we need to avoid pushing. Unfortunately there’s been examples in recent years of vegans co-opting or criticizing other social justice movements in very blunt and non-intersectional ways. I definitely think it’s possible for there to be a more subtle and compassionate way to convey the connections. I think actually just showing up as vegans to fight for and protect others can help dispel that we’re a single issue movement, though the visibility of course should just be a byproduct of doing the right thing. ❤️
Yes to lots of that! I would suggest that the stagnation of veganism in the US has been going on since I went vegan in 1995. We've always been about 1-2%. And of course the political climate has been crap for that long (and longer) as well - but i think there's more at play here.
To bubble or not to bubble... Anyway, #BoycottMeat and all other animal products of cruelty and exploitation in any way possible!
It’s sad that it seems most people see veganism as a trend. I know you addressed it in the video but damn am I ever hung up on the wording. It’s telling that there’s a "vegan bubble" like as if you wake up one day and find your ethics deflated.. wtf.
From my own experience, all of these meat alternatives are too expensive during a cost of living crisis. Meat is subsidised and made cheaper, while meat alternatives have got more expensive. My family and I don't eat them that often, opting for whole foods, but on the occasions when we would have bought them we've had to rethink and assess if we can actually afford a plant based mince when we have dried lentils in the cupboard. It's a shame, and I wish something could be don't to make them more affordable.
i cook so often that i can't really justify spending more money on pricey and honestly OK vegan convenience foods.
Hi I've never liked the ready made vegan stuff . I always cook for scratch then I know what I'm eating !! 🙏🌿🙏💞
Though I truly love and empathize with animals, I was a committed carnivore foodie, as well as being addicted to other unhealthy foods; salt, sugar, etc. My candid former view of veganism was that many were into it, to be hip and trendy. Then, I had a catastrophic health event. The ethics-challenged "healthcare" system just wanted to do radical surgery and medication. Though my condition is severe, I did not want the surgery, wanted to limit my medications to the bare minimum and take a holistic approach.
I recognized that if I wanted to continue to live, it was pretty much, entirely, up to me and I would need to act quickly and decisively. I did a deep research dive; talked to everybody I could, read everything I could find and did a lot of processing. Fortunately, I'm pretty good at filtering the various types and levels of misinformation and disinformation, that has so inundated related subject matter.
I came to the conclusion that a plant-based diet, along with other healthy changes, represented the only viable, yet, faint hope. I turned my life around on a dime; switched to a vegan diet, increased the consistency of my exercise routine, learned to manage stress better, along with other lifestyle changes. Thanks to an increasing number of vegan cookbooks, YT videos, etc., I was able to creatively navigate the daunting challenges of learning a whole new way to cook, eat and live.
It's been nearly two years and I'm still alive, for now. I've lost 80 lbs, thus far, (slowly, so I can maintain), and have gradually begun to feel better on a more consistent basis. My monitoring markers and numbers have improved too. To be honest, my execution of my plan has not been perfect and there have been lots of stumbles on the way. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't admit that individual physiology varies. My doctors are surprised that I'm even up, walking around, given my recent history. So, I firmly believe in the vegan lifestyle for reasons that may not be shared or completely understood by many.
Now, to the original question, "Has The Vegan Bubble Burst?" Imho, for those to whom it is merely a bubble, its momentum may have temporarily slowed. Cycles will come, go and repeat. Trend seekers and hipsters will move on. The corporate news media will discover or manufacture another "craze" to co-opt. Commercial interests will find other ways to exploit the masses. There will be powerful interests, who mightily resist healthy change. Meanwhile, our majority diet and lifestyle will continue to make more of us very sick. Fortunately younger people, trans-boomer), seem to possess a greater awareness, thus respecting, if not, embracing veganism. As the younger generations age, they'll only come to a sharper realization of the value and fragility of good health and how it must be our foundational priority. Assuming that our world survives the other profoundly existential ravages of late-stage capitalism, I believe veganism will survive and thrive.
I was excited to see all the products at first but having tried them, I realised how expensive it was getting. I rather just cook with Tofu and TVP, cheaper and more versitile.
Same...
All the internet pro-exploitation trolls are clapping their hands at this because they're too uninformed to know the difference between plant-based capitalism and actual veganism. Meanwhile veganism continues on :)
I don't think the world is going to go vegan for animal rights reasons. Because frankly, most people don't care about animal rights. They don't see the suffering, don't want to see it. Most people are willing to change over environmental reesons. Why? Because that is affecting their own individual bottom line. Produce is becoming more expensive because of the energy crisis, everyone feels that in their wallet.
Commited vegans like me do not tend to want fake meat. They make there own. I like Asian food which is mostly vegetable based. And it is much cheaper
30 year junk food vegan. Never made my own. Never been more "committed". Sorry mate, but please don't speak for me.
Hello. I agree with the points you're making in this video but as someone who isn't that familiar with your channel, what do you think vegans should be doing to promote veganism as a social justice movement? You offered no alternative strategies or solutions at the end.
I have 250 videos on my channel. Most of them offer alternative strategies. I also have been giving lectures and trainings and workshops literally around the world for the last 7 years on alternative strategies. Respectfully, you gotta just look a little. I would suggest starting with the playlist Are We Winning, Season 03
@@thecrankyvegan Arrogance personified?
@@thecrankyvegan okay thanks, I will
I personally think yes the market is more and more saturated (at least in Europe and North America - a vegan heaven imo), because there are a lot of smaller companies, which I believe vegans prefer to support (esp. in regard to local, organic produce) and not these multimillion $ tncs...
Btw: vegan capitalism is basically the only way to attract people to veganism in many Asian countries, e.g., South Korea where I study the progress of veganism - sad but true; ppl see veganism as a trend/diet to improve their own health and mostly do not think about the (wellbeing of) animals
A random lady in the grocery store says she wont eat soy, but never researched it, just heard it is bad. So she buys chicken nuggets. Everyone usually talks about health and taste.
This is totally how it is for most people! Exactly! This is how status quo bias works. Unless assumptions are challenged, the path of least resistance is paved in silence.
@jonahwhale9047 yup
Loving the beard 😍
Agreed very cute
Thanks! 🙂
We could probably get a more accurate gauge on the buying power of vegans by looking at sales of nooch, TVP, vegan ice cream and oh the sales of plant milk in shitty cafes that have an extra charge in place for them. (Still hung up on the wording 😅)
The vegan bubble burst? Only if the number of vegans went down. Plant based products aren't required to be vegan. Whole foods, and minimally processed foods like tofu and tempeh are all we need to thrive long term.
Well, the percentage of vegans isn't really going up either. So maybe a stagnant bubble?
@@thecrankyvegan Temporary plateau? I am hoping that when inflation comes down, more people will see veganism as a viable option for them since they don't want to go whole food plant based.
KEEP THE BEARD 💘
I gave this video a like just for your beard
Wouldn't it make a lot more sense that since the UK is going through an energy crisis and a cost of living crisis that people simply cannot afford luxury brands? Plant-based meats are expensive as fuck and if you're a regular person trying to make ends meet, you're not going to waste money on beyond meat when you can get the heavily subsidized animal carcass for half the price.
As soon as the economy recovers and there's another boom, I guarantee we're going to see plant-based meats rise in popularity again. There's no point in psychoanalyzing things like this when the issue can be easily explained by the bottom line.
You speak a lot of sense mate 😎. The 'boom' has not been in new vegans but in bovine excrementarians with flexible wallets, desirous of looking cool and planetarily in touch, who will return once the squeezing pincers relax.
There are however still a number of vegan products around in the UK that are not that expensive which can keep junk foodies like me going during the slump. 😎
I'm in the UK. At least real vegan food will never be cut back ie, fruits, veggies, legumes, beans ect. I never cared for over expensive food just because it has the label vegan on it. A lot of them are a rip off and I've found as a consequence a lot of people I speak to think processed vegan food is only what we can eat. Of course I'm not against these foods, I have the odd Linda McCartney burger ect but I do think there are less people who are vegan than we are less to believe. As sad as it is, at the moment, I still feel not that many people are changing to a vegan lifestyle.
Nail on the head there Jake, we keep moving forward ✊🏻
Perhaps there is also more of a worldwide spread. For instance, I used to live in the Netherlands and anything remotely vegan was really hard to find, but in recent years there has been an explosion of vegan establishments in most if not all cities. Same in Germany. Maybe it's just that the UK is not such an epicentre.
Maybe too veganism is maturing. There is no doubt that in roughly the last 5 or so years, veganism has become far more popular. In my experience, the products you talk about tend to be the ones that are something lots of people choose initially as recognisable alternatives but then most people migrate to more whole foods like veggies, beans, etc. Not least because that is cheaper and we know how people are struggling.
Further on the cost of living, I believe that these meat alternatives are something like 90% consumed by non-vegans, so, the fact that they are generally more expensive than the animal ones, might mean more non-vegans moving away from them.
I live in Australia and there are more than enough vegan options. I prepare all my foods fresh and occasionally I will grab a Beyond burger for a treat. More new vegan products hit the shelfs across our supermarkets regularly. There are no bubbles bursting down under. 😊
I think mamy vegans know how to make good vegan food, so they won't disappear just because some vegan food option does. Besides, making your own is usually healthier. I made a salat today, where I mixed fried mushrooms, baked chickpeas, vaked sweet potato and barley groats cooked with mushroom- and vegetable stock. Added fresh tomato. Because of the different seasonings in this, no meat was required. As long as there is seasoning, eating plant-based can be very possivle 😁👍
BTW, not supporting brands like Nestle isn't bad - they're a horrible brand. Also, as long as there's tea, coffee, kombucha...water, oat milks... I mean: there's plenty of stuff to drink. Oatly one is sad though :/ Although, I'm not sure whether ultra-processed is the problem here
I think most people want something to taste good and be easily accessible and convenient to prepare. So yes to the plant based whole foods route. But I don't think that's whats going to win over a huge chunk of the population unfortunately.
We don't need these faux products to be vegan. I live in Tijuana, Mexico where the faux products are more expensive still. I eat so much more healthier here than in the US. I'd also rather spend that extra money on animal advocacy and sanctuaries anyway. Let these corporations who tried to exploit us fail. The movement is still here with or without yet another vegan nugget.
When I first started being vegan, I was buying all the mock meats, cheeses, etc, but now that I've learned how to cook and experimented with creative cooking from scratch, I really don't see a need to buy all that stuff. I prefer to buy less processed foods and make things from scratch. I still buy vegan butter and beyond/impossible when its half off
And I'm trying to prioritize local products when I can, as well, I would rather pay a premium for quality than scientific Frankenstein food
Would be awesome if you can come to the international animal rights conference in Luxemburg in September
Thanks! Great video.
Thanks!
The issue is that foods like fake meats, fake cheeses etc.. don't appeal to both a lot of vegans and almost all meat eaters. Vegans tend to be very health conscious and choose to eat mainly whole foods. Also, you tend to lose the taste for meat, cheese etc.. after some time. I prefer vegetable patties over fake meat patties any day and I'm 11 years vegan.
Meat eaters can taste the difference and want the "real stuff". Fake meats just don't convince them.
So, the only group that may be convinced by meat replacements are people who are switching to a vegetarian/vegan diet. It might help as something that temporarily helps with cravings for meat, but I don't think most people will continue to consume them long term after they've gone vegan. I don't know any vegan who regularly eats meat replacements. Most vegans tend to be very health conscious as I've already said, and unprocessed foods are just not attractive enough. Eventually you start dislikung the artificial taste.
The only exception is plant milks which are doing great, but that is because they serve an actual purpose since they can be very useful when cooking. Also, plant milks individually can taste great and tend to not try to mimic the taste of milk.
@Rick "I don't know any vegan who regularly eats meat replacements." Well you do now mate 😎- 30 year vegan.
"Vegans tend to be very health conscious and choose to eat mainly whole foods"
Vegans "tend" to not want animals to be harmed. Health is a separate issue. Vegans for health are the ones who invariably fall off the wagon because it's all about them, not about the animals.
"It might help as something that temporarily helps with cravings for meat, but I don't think most people will continue to consume them long term after they've gone vegan."
What do you base your insights on?
@Jonah Whale Are you stalking me or just needy? 😉
@Jonah Whale It was mediocre Jonah as was mine probably, but how did you lose your sense of humour mate? Was the winking smiley not enough of a signal?
@Jonah Whale "Screw this getting to call yourself one on day one, & then crapping on the scene two years later."
Better to focus on the stuff we can control mate, such as the content we put out, rather than get too side tracked with the self absorbed. You planning on making any vids any time soon and if so on what topics?
Finally found space to watch this episode. I think this is such an important conversation to start. No radical justice movement can capitalist its way to success. The core systems aren’t compatible.
Are we taking into account people may also be avoiding processed foods as well. I try and avoid supporting companies that harm animals but profit from plant based alternatives.
If they stop selling vegetables, lentils and chickpeas then I think I may start to worry.
Thanks for sharing these compelling perspectives and important points from both sides around veganism’s popularity potentially stagnating
I am reductarian.. We have gone 1 year using only plant milk in our household, but then I got laid off and here where I live plant milk is 3 times more expensive than cows milk, it is pretty crazy. So that went out the window.. :( on the brighter side, more dried legumes dishes. Cheap and healthy. Also homemade cashew cream cheese is more cheap than the real thing, if cashews are on sale and I buy the "ugly ones"
I’m able to make great tasting food from rice, beans, and whole grains. Occasionally I’ll buy a vegan junk food like a beyond burger or vegan sausage but I prefer the vegan Whole Foods that are healthy and inexpensive.
This is all about the food Industry… Well vegans eat plants, so The Industry can only make money delivering Plants. They don’t like that! But life is tough! Eat plants!
I make a baller black bean burger. Something like a Beyond or Impossible burger is nice once in a while, but if sales are slumping here in the US, it's because the price is too high and there are cheaper options if this truly is the way you eat. Or, you know, if you just put a little effort into checking them out.
I idea of the “bubble” is an interesting one - meaning hype and hyperbole. Vegan organizations have indeed created some of that, like we even heard in this video. Expensive specialty products also gave the impression that veganism is only for the rich and privileged.
I’d pay a premium for the odd vegan treat but the staples need to be cheap, and they are.
Looks like the beard might have to start its own channel.
😅😅
I *might* be biased on this, but you should keep the beard 😃
@Jonah Whale #goalz
ha that's fair.
@jonahwhale9047 // 🤣🤣
Loving the beard!
😀😀
Ok so many things here but there are quite a few GLARING blind spots in the vegan movement and the biggest one of all is CLASS
1. Veganism is seen and kind of is more PMC and not a working class movement. Let’s also be clear here, class is more than $ earned per year. Class is income mixed with local culture, type of employment, education level. A construction tradesman probably makes way more money than some folks with a liberal arts degree in something related to sociology or whatever but they are in 2 different classes.
Veganism has a huge blind spot around class and class cultures. Meat/animal products is a big part of culture and veganism is seen as outside the realm of what many groups connect with.
It also doesn’t help that vegan alts are generally pretty expensive an actually marketed towards the PMC.
Veganism needs to be able to reach the “average Joe”
Not the fuckin indie artsy dude in a band
Not the liberal girl who studied anthropology and has an Etsy shop making social justice stickers
It needs to be able to be accessible, not just price wise, for your average working class person- the tradesman, the retail worker, the warehouse stocker. It needs to portray multiple Aesthetics that invite people in. Many vegans restaurants I see don’t do those
Im not saying there’s no vegans who work jobs like these. But by and large vegans and vegan orgs are run by the opposite of these folks.
Many can say they don’t have time to care when they have more pressing things. Not to mention again that culture- grillin, fishin, eating wings at sports games, etc there’s are all 😂highly engrained in our still heavily masculine (masculine-parody really) culture.
Veganism has to become cool and tough. Veganism is seen as lame and weak.
2. Meat Alts might not be the only metric
Meat alt dips shouldn’t be the sole metric you look at. It should be meat purchasing. As meat alts drop, have meat sales dropped? Remained steady? Increased?
Sometimes folks say these products are not an everyday thing or for “transition”
I eat meat alts but not always on a daily basis. I would say 70% of my meals are Whole foods based.
3. Animals were never the focus and that doesn’t sell. The boom in PB alts has almost solely been marketed around 2 things-
Environment/climate change
Health
Animals were barely if at all in the equation. To the extent animals are in the equation gave rise to the “humane certified” “grass fed” “pasture raised” “free range” labels. This was the extent consumers were willing to go because “happy animals taste better.”
It always came back to health. The welfare of an animal was predicated on whether that would be a better outcome for the consumer after eating it.
Generally health food focuses have shifted to eating more plants but not excluding animals. People may initially been drawn to PB meats around them being healthy.
One of the drawbacks that PB meats shot themselves in the foot with was exclaiming that their products were objectively healthy. They walked into east criticism around processing, the use of soy and gluten (the current feared foods), the binders, the “stretchy laundry list of unpronounceable ingredients.”
They did that to themselves. Is it healthier than animal meat? Probably. Should it have been marketed that way? No. A Burger isn’t healthy plant based or not.. and that’s fine. It doesn’t have to be. It gives people a false impression that anything made from plants is healthy which almost sounds like a con.
PB meats also target environment. Environment/climate change sits well with millennial and Gen z consumers but a big crux of the messaging around climate change is that we need to reduce. Not eliminate. Therefore some folks may supplement with these products but not entirely.
Almost everyone I know uses plant based milk for coffee. But they all still bake and cook with cow milk. Some will eat a veggie dog but still eat chicken.
These PB products have been integrated but not used fully in place of becsuse people still don’t seem to think it can be done and also it can take quite a while to find the alternative that you enjoy. Not every store has things that may have that product that could satisfy you. And it can rack up. Buying a mediocre or inedible product for a lot of money and having to keep doing that? Only a vegan already committed is going to keep spending money to try things or go around to different stores that carry a particular brand.
The long and short of it is that while vegan OPTIONS have become more accessible and mainstream, veganism is still not accessible, monetarily and culturally. I think vegans do a disservice by believing “we” are anywhere near a vegan world and tbh a vegan world is unlikely to ever happen. The only thing I think is to put your stock in cell-cultured meat and dairy. Yes vegan numbers will grow but it will likely remain a small % of end overall population. Any reduction in animal death is great and yet reduction still also mean it continues.
@jonahwhale9047The US is a one of the larger meat producers and consumers. So yes my response is particular to that.
However your response was exactly what I was talking about. Hippies punks squatters and alternative communities are not the majority of “the average Joe working class”
Veganism needs to leap out of both the counter culture circles and out of the PMC. And while some of that has to do with costs, the majority of it has to do with cultural adaptation, messaging and aesthetics.
Correlation is not causation, right? There are more and more vegans every day, whether that reflects in the number of vegan products being sold at stores or not
I'm not so sure about correlation is not causation in this case. And yeah, there are more new vegans every day, but there are way more new omnivores every day. So we aren't really making any headway. And corporations I think see that reflecting in their numbers.
Excellent content. I’m “sure about that.”
ha well played
I like a lot about the take, but I find it very surprising that you seem to suggest focusing on "ethics" in response to the problem of corporate domination of society / capitalism. I would have thought that focusing on campaigns that directly pressure corporations, campaigning for pro-animal / plant-based government and public institutional policy, and using the legal system for animals / plant-based goals are more matters of sound campaign and political strategy than "ethics." Sitting around talking about your ethics does nothing to oppose corporate rule, and I suspect that the ghouls who own the shares would very much like you to do that.
Very well articulated. While some online Vegans crucify each other over semantic points, the movement needs to focus squarely on political action- get rid of subsidies, make corporations pay for environmental externalities etc
Tax payers are subsidising animal cruelty
The foundation of animal liberation is rooted in the ethics of social justice. If we don't have that as the core foundation of the movement, the movement will continue to be a place people can jump in and out of, monetize, and be littered with right wing people. We are seeing that happen. So obviously yes to pressure campaigns, action, shifting systems. But that work isn't going to be organized and strategized by people without some sense of ethics.
@@thecrankyvegan
Reasonable people/ philosophers have argued about ‘The correct’ normative ethic approach since time immemorial
Witness all the different ethical & political schools of thought.
Pragmatic politics based on justice as fairness rather than the narrower social justice
You’re so right about this
Nice!!! Forthright, I liked it...
I went vegan 3 years ago for my health but slowly started thinking about animals as well. I tried lots of vegan products and some were good, some were bad. I’ve settled on the few products that I really enjoy but mostly try to eat Whole Foods. Potatoes rice beans salads etc. My family are omnivores but have significantly reduced the amount of meat they eat because of me.
Why am I not already subscribed to you? Sorry about that, got it fixed.
I Love your videos . 👊🙏 great work
"...subsidized animal flesh..."
yup.
smh
as someone who has never been a vegan and who doesn't even think of ever becoming a vegan, I have to admit that I like your down-to-earth analysis; the dose of self-criticism and reflection is rather extremely uncommon for a vegan channel. I hope the vegan community learned the lesson
Thanks. I think regardless of what your issue is or you're just figuring out how to make it, you have to be smart and strategic and that has a lot to do with being self-reflective and having difficult conversations.
@@thecrankyvegan
I would like to spend some time here, just to feel the ambient. if you don't mind.
I'd buy more vegan products, if they weren't that damn expensive here in Bucharest.
Begins at 1:43
The vegan bubble has burst.
But I believe these big companies as you said don’t come with the same ethic in mind which is to “minimize suffering”. Again as you said impossible in a world of capitalism where we vote with our dollar. But that reminded me of something, remember when dairy farms were essentially going bankrupt because of the vegan movement and the rise in nut milks. I believe the only reason that was the case because we have multiple brands vegan and not competing in the same market. But something like a burger that actually tastes like meat you really only have two options. Beyond and impossible. (Personally I think Beyond burgers are disgusting)so that already eliminates one option. We need to corner the market and focus on one specific item ( and actually taste good and it has to be affordable)but multiple companies need to work together for this otherwise it will never happen on a grand scale.
I see your point. But I think when you dive into the milk issue it's not as clean cut as "because of the vegan movement". In fact, I think it had very little to do with us. From what I've read it has a lot to do with people turning to sports drinks and energy drinks and bottled waters and yes, plant milks. But not because they came around to an ethical argument. But more because lactose intolerance and health and environment became more of a factor.
@@thecrankyvegan ahh okay good to know. But I think that’s the point asking a single person to give up animal products in its entirety isn’t really feasible let alone just one animal product it it’s entirely given the structure we have now.
Keep the beard
Maybe it’s a good thing … as a vegan I have been eating a lot of vegan junk … at least this will force me to cook more at home ( from scratch)
vegans are many and strong when they all come together. what we really need to find is a way to do it. and we did't find it because we listen to the nose and not to the cause.
jmo .. Keep the beard!😊
im a vegan, but i don't consume any of these products. i always advocate for whole foods vegan diet. i think the vegan movement should promote overcoming your taste cravings, instead of trying to replace them with processed crap. this is obv better for health, but arguably this is a more effective approach than protesting animal agriculture. if we can get everyone to have no desire for meat there will naturally be no slaughter
"i think the vegan movement should promote overcoming your taste cravings, instead of trying to replace them with processed crap."
I think we should advocate for not eating animal flesh, eggs or dairy.
@@EarthPoets i dont think that lacks merit, but creating alternative dependencies definitely lacks merit
@@maggot1111666 Who said anything about "creating alternative dependencies". I just think the approach you favour overcomplicates matters, has no chance of success, and almost sounds designed to fail. But let's see, you say "arguably this is a more effective approach than protesting animal agriculture." Please present your case.
Veganism is not about what we eat, it's about *who* we don't. If I have missed something then please wise me up.
@@EarthPoets walk up to a heroine addict and say, "stop doing heroine, its morally wrong." that won't be very effective. walk up a heroine addict and say "stop doing heroine, its morally wrong, and ill give this mock heroine that is 80% as good." that won't be very effective either. walk up to a heroine addict and say, "I will give you a process to get rid of your heroine addiction altogether." then they won't ever seek anything resembling heroine ever again
@@maggot1111666 Only chance of it working is if they are desperate to give up - and most aren't. I was hoping you'd elaborate on your claim that arguably this is a more effective approach than protesting animal agriculture." You aren't going to continue letting me down are you?
but Coca Cola are still producing Coca Cola, which is - in case people don't know - vegan
Have you been on holiday lately? 'your face' It's good you got time for yourself while you are fighting for animals. I wish I had that time! Instead I'm under attack 24/7 with no time for rest. I'm sick and tired about the ones that are not seriously committed to this vital moral issue. I expected much more. Nothing personal by the way! Take care.👽🗡️
Google trends shows a massive drop in interest in the word veganism. Down to levels where it was at 10 years ago.
I think it is time to question your ideals. Are you really for the farm animals when you oppose their existence?
"Oppose their existence?" As in the idea that they would go extinct if animal agriculture ended? Wouldn't you rather not exist than to live a life of suffering? I personally wouldn't mind if they eventually disappeared, since they were basically created for profit via selective breeding. I would rather see the wild animals they came from took their place, which could happen with all the extra land and forests. A fully plant based food system would need 75% less land!
@@someguy2135 vegansim systematically seeks massive reductions of farm animal existence.
Farming here opposes suffering. It is a wonderful thing for their kind.
You seem to misunderstand the motivations behind farming.
@@deanecarson2837 You- "Farming here opposes suffering." Where you are may be the exception to the rule, but here in the USA, 99% of meat in stores and restaurants are from factory farms. The motivation for farming is profit. The motivation for farm animal sanctuaries is to oppose suffering. Even the least cruel farms needlessly kill for profit, and maximizing profit generally involves cruel treatment.
@@deanecarson2837
You’re such a philanthropist bring beings into existence for you to exploit. Can I bring members of your family into existence so that they could toil on my property all day long? After all I granted them a life. In time they may even appreciate it
@jonahwhale9047 The voice of reason! Thank you for saying so. There is a philosopher whose name escapes me who said that the best way to design a humane system is to imagine that you could be born as any sentient being who would be part of that system. The system of food production, for example. If you knew you could be born a cow or pig, how would you design a system of food production?