Good insights! It's hard to not rank Paladin at the top in a combat heavy campaign: top tier healing (at level 1 you can already heal 5 times! Not even a life cleric can do that!!!), buffs (Bless is amazing, and crusaders mantle is invaluable), protection (those auras save your parties! Mind flayers are not as scary with a paladin in your party), tanking, and nova damage all in one They are tricky to play though, as you have to know when to be any of the above. And you might pull your hair out deciding which ability score to increase. Probably why the hex blade dip is so popular lol
My ranking for martials would be (note that this is for single class characters only, and purely on power scale, as my ranking for what are my favorites would be very different order): 1) Paladin 2) Fighter 3) Ranger 4) Barbarian 5) Rogue 6) Monk
I think it's pretty unrepresentative to do ADPT at 20th level. The power curve of classes isn't the same and nearly no campaigns ever reach 20th level. So it's sort of a useless data point. Might be smart, in the future, to do this kind of thing for like 1st, 5th, and 11th levels. The early, medium, and highest levels most characters would be used at.
I had the same thought. I decided on 20th level for the sake of simplicity, but maybe a different category entirely would have more accurately represented each class. Though I do like your idea of scaling through early-mid game!
@@Jetpack7 Yeah it's certainly more complicated. If someone told me I needed to make that single level analysis, I think I'd pick 5th instead of 20th though. 5th is a much more representative level. Last I saw, data showed most campaigns end by 12th level.
@@NickPierson As expected, the majority of complaints for this video are in regards to the ADPT category! Hehe. Yes that makes sense, I'll definitely take that into account in the future. There may be a revised version of this video released down the line and hopefully I can find a better method to rate each class's power. Thanks for the comment! 😁
@@Jetpack7 No worries! Always happy to help out a fellow D&D RUclipsr! It was a great video. Solid quality, good editing, and I liked the content. Keep it up!
There is no way paladins have more in the beyond attacks section than a rogue does. Rogues are key to information gathering, infiltration, and tons of other roles outside of combat not to mention their ability to disarm traps mskes them basically essential Oh they also get an additional ASI
I'm with you about the monk. I love the concept, but I feel like the subclasses depend on the base class too much. What would be you suggestions on helping balance out these classes?
Rogue is an interesting class in that their power level is very dependent on how your DM rules on stealth and surprise. If they are lenient, you will get a surprise round in nearly every combat and sneak attack nearly every round. If they stick close to RAW surprise rounds are not a thing and sneak attack can be very hard to get. Depending on your DM they can be completely broken or grossly under powered. Side note: even before the ranger overhaul in tasha's, I think monk is the weakest class in the game by a wide margin, (unless you play a very low income game and no one can get plate armor or a +1 weapon).
All you need for the Rogue's Sneak Attack is to have advantage against your target. With a little smart playing, you can do that extra damage every round. Hell, as a Swashbuckler, all you need to get that damage is to be alone with an enemy.
I believe the words "Barbarian" and "synergy" we're used in the same sentence related to weapon choice for the first time in history in this video. Loved the juxtaposition!
As someone currently playing both, I think it depends what kind of campaign you’re in. A rogue is great if dungeon-crawling or doing heists; a paladin’s high charisma is incredibly helpful in social situations.
@@lauramcmillan9592 Maybe. The paladin is forced to balance STR, CON and CHA, which may work against that high charisma value sometimes. The Rogue can pick basically anything as a secondary stat, since it has other defense mechanisms. I can easily picture a Rogue assassin or mastermind with high Dex and Cha. The inquisitive Rogue will probably be built in Dex and Wis. You may like the idea of focusing CON on the scout or the swashbuckler (after dex)... It seems to me like rogues are versatile in terms of attributes and builds so IMO they are not really only better at dungeon crawling and heist stuff. It is easier to count the things the Rogues can't be good at. Probably, a rogue with high charisma will have some expertise on charisma based skills. I don't want to look like the Paladin is not strong. I mean, the aura things are the bomb, they do have some more versatility and space for utility after level 5 and the smites are really impressive
Ranger is very under-rated, it is one of the best consistent damage dealers in the game. The problem with this ranking is that he is only looking at level 20, which is like the least relevant level, since most campaigns never make it that far, and even if they do, it's only very small percentage of the total duration of the campaign. Looking at damage at like levels 5-11 would be lot more useful as that's the level range where most of the campaigns take place.
My rank personally. 6 ranger: everyone knows why. 5 monk: ok yes you have stunning strike, but basically any creative person with a high str can stun.( i suplexed a train and stunned it as a barbarian) and what i find worst about monk, is that you can make a monk without going full monk. just go half spell caster and you end up with bigger blast. and the only good feature is stunning blow. 4 paladin: Your spreading yourself insanely thin trying to be each class which is a big problem when your level 20 and realize you still don't have pro in your weapon. still good overall though. 3 fighter: average in all that they do, they can pump out tons of damage and are very customizable still being strong in anyway that you build it. 2 rouge: Sneaky bastard that steals anything and sneak attacks all, with a little support from there party they can back stab people at any point. only problem is they don't have as much hp as some of the others but evasion and a dump truck of Ac can fix that. 1 barbarian: they don't even die. yes sure they may only be good for combat but there REALLY good at combat. never die, there damage isn't high but when your eating all your enemies damage your filling out an amazing role for the party. ( Also Totem barbarian op Af )
It was completely unfair that you didn't use action surge for fighter but used the class features of every other class when available. Yes i understand that rogue's sneak attack and barbarian rage works every turn, but paladin smites are also limited, and yet you used a third slot every turn. You also payed no attention to spells such as hunters mark or swift quiver for ranger. You also didn't include feats. You also didn't factor in the fact that earlier levels exist, which is a much more important thing to consider. Paladins might be smiting machines at lvl 20, but at lvl5 they don't have too many slots, especially higher level ones, to spend willy nilly on smiting. Almost Nobody is going to be playing a game that even reaches lvl 20, let alone playing after the fact. Yes I understand that this increases the complexity of the question a lot and basically eliminates all objectivity, but it's worth at least being mentioned.
Here is the thing, he used the third level simtes as that is what the average smite would be like if you used one every turn until you ran out. There is also a massive difference between an ability that you can use twice per long rest and something you can use 15 times per long rest. The other thing about divine smite is that you choose to use it *after* an attack hits, this means that you can just wait until you get a crit and then use a full power smite and absolutely wreck whatever you hit.
@Jerry Dove Anecdotal evidence is not objective. Take a survey, and a good 70-80% of players will say they almost never get all the way to lvl 20 and stay there for long. Most campaigns end around lvl 10-15 or so.
@Jerry Dove www.enworld.org/threads/90-of-d-d-games-stop-by-level-10-wizards-more-popular-at-higher-levels.666097/ Official survey done by Wotc for their splatbooks. No homebrew, admittedly, so you can take it with a grain of salt, but it says that a good 90% if games don't go past level 10. From my own experience this lines up reletively parallel to your average homebrew campaign. While I'm speaking anecdotally, I have had many games fizzle out long before even then, either due to scheduling conflicts or what have you. The number of campaigns I've actually "completed" are in the single digits. Assuming you're not being a liar as you brag about how great your group is, you're in the minority of players. You're passing judgement against people who quite literally say that they don't experience the things you do, and given your first comment I assume this is typical for you to hear. And if it's typical, that would mean that you should eventually realize that you're not the majority.
Doing ADPT at level 20 makes this list pointless. it has do be done for the levels people actually play (4-14). The only place where a tier list like this is useful is for a campaign starting at very high level.
I think this assessment has a few flaws, assumption being among them. The biggest of them is that the average dps of the paladin is based on the ability to burn 2 lvl 3 slots per turn and even though the avreage of all 18 spell slots spent smiting is about 8d8 per turn in combat it only lasts for 7 turns, after which the paladin is losing 40 ADPT from smite. At ghe same time you only alot for the ranger to use hunters mark but nothing else for damage, and im pretty sure zephyr strike would add more to ADPT. Rangers Fighters and Paladins also get access to fighing styles and either land more hits on average or do more damage. The dueling style for example pushes the paladin and the fighter dps up while wielding a longsword, so fighter dpt i creases by 8 and paladin by 4.
Fighter is the best, Paladin is next then Rogue IMHO Fighter is a damage machine, add in feats like great weapon master and mobile or lucky. Great weapon fighting and then throw in an action surge or go samurai and get fighting spirit which is amazing
Probably worth noting this is a combat-based ranking, not necessarily a more versatile game ranking. Which, to be fair, would be way more complicated. Hold on- 10d6... 40 damage? Not 35?
The Rouge has a lot more damage if you use two short swords and get sneak attack double. And then rush out with cunning action. You get sneak attack cause of the short swords has finesse and that is what you use for a sneak attack
You can only get sneak attack once per turn. And you would need to use your bonus action to attack with the offhand short sword, which would limit you from using your bonus action to disengage.
Yeah, I found it quite ludicrous that he added 3rd level spell slot to paladins average damage, while at the same time not adding any spells to rangers average damage, while they both have equal spellcasting, talk about biased calculations.
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Using 20th level is probably not the best way to measure a character's rank. Most campaigns will never get there.
1) Paladin
2) fighter
3) rogue
4) barbarian
5) Ranger
6) Monk
Barbarian damage should be using reckless attack... that should bump up the numbers. I cannot see how the monk did better than the barbarian.
I can't see how monk outperforms a commoner, let alone a barbarian.
There’s a reason my favorite class is Paladin. Bias CONFIRMED!
Glad I could enable your love of the paladin!
Good insights! It's hard to not rank Paladin at the top in a combat heavy campaign: top tier healing (at level 1 you can already heal 5 times! Not even a life cleric can do that!!!), buffs (Bless is amazing, and crusaders mantle is invaluable), protection (those auras save your parties! Mind flayers are not as scary with a paladin in your party), tanking, and nova damage all in one
They are tricky to play though, as you have to know when to be any of the above. And you might pull your hair out deciding which ability score to increase. Probably why the hex blade dip is so popular lol
My ranking for martials would be (note that this is for single class characters only, and purely on power scale, as my ranking for what are my favorites would be very different order):
1) Paladin
2) Fighter
3) Ranger
4) Barbarian
5) Rogue
6) Monk
I think it's pretty unrepresentative to do ADPT at 20th level. The power curve of classes isn't the same and nearly no campaigns ever reach 20th level. So it's sort of a useless data point. Might be smart, in the future, to do this kind of thing for like 1st, 5th, and 11th levels. The early, medium, and highest levels most characters would be used at.
I had the same thought. I decided on 20th level for the sake of simplicity, but maybe a different category entirely would have more accurately represented each class.
Though I do like your idea of scaling through early-mid game!
@@Jetpack7 Yeah it's certainly more complicated. If someone told me I needed to make that single level analysis, I think I'd pick 5th instead of 20th though.
5th is a much more representative level.
Last I saw, data showed most campaigns end by 12th level.
@@NickPierson As expected, the majority of complaints for this video are in regards to the ADPT category! Hehe.
Yes that makes sense, I'll definitely take that into account in the future. There may be a revised version of this video released down the line and hopefully I can find a better method to rate each class's power. Thanks for the comment! 😁
@@Jetpack7 No worries! Always happy to help out a fellow D&D RUclipsr!
It was a great video. Solid quality, good editing, and I liked the content. Keep it up!
There is no way paladins have more in the beyond attacks section than a rogue does. Rogues are key to information gathering, infiltration, and tons of other roles outside of combat not to mention their ability to disarm traps mskes them basically essential
Oh they also get an additional ASI
The monk sucks worse than the ranger. They’re total trash. The restriction of ki points to do everything is just to limiting.
Dakota M the resource limitations are just so severe.
I'm with you about the monk. I love the concept, but I feel like the subclasses depend on the base class too much. What would be you suggestions on helping balance out these classes?
Rogue is an interesting class in that their power level is very dependent on how your DM rules on stealth and surprise. If they are lenient, you will get a surprise round in nearly every combat and sneak attack nearly every round. If they stick close to RAW surprise rounds are not a thing and sneak attack can be very hard to get. Depending on your DM they can be completely broken or grossly under powered.
Side note: even before the ranger overhaul in tasha's, I think monk is the weakest class in the game by a wide margin, (unless you play a very low income game and no one can get plate armor or a +1 weapon).
All you need for the Rogue's Sneak Attack is to have advantage against your target. With a little smart playing, you can do that extra damage every round. Hell, as a Swashbuckler, all you need to get that damage is to be alone with an enemy.
I believe the words "Barbarian" and "synergy" we're used in the same sentence related to weapon choice for the first time in history in this video. Loved the juxtaposition!
IMO the rogue should take the cake there because it has more use for its abilities outside of combat when compared to the paladin
As someone currently playing both, I think it depends what kind of campaign you’re in. A rogue is great if dungeon-crawling or doing heists; a paladin’s high charisma is incredibly helpful in social situations.
@@lauramcmillan9592 Maybe. The paladin is forced to balance STR, CON and CHA, which may work against that high charisma value sometimes. The Rogue can pick basically anything as a secondary stat, since it has other defense mechanisms. I can easily picture a Rogue assassin or mastermind with high Dex and Cha. The inquisitive Rogue will probably be built in Dex and Wis. You may like the idea of focusing CON on the scout or the swashbuckler (after dex)... It seems to me like rogues are versatile in terms of attributes and builds so IMO they are not really only better at dungeon crawling and heist stuff. It is easier to count the things the Rogues can't be good at. Probably, a rogue with high charisma will have some expertise on charisma based skills. I don't want to look like the Paladin is not strong. I mean, the aura things are the bomb, they do have some more versatility and space for utility after level 5 and the smites are really impressive
Ranger gets a bit more love due to the release of Tasha's Cauldron but yeah, still a pretty bad class overall
Ranger is very under-rated, it is one of the best consistent damage dealers in the game. The problem with this ranking is that he is only looking at level 20, which is like the least relevant level, since most campaigns never make it that far, and even if they do, it's only very small percentage of the total duration of the campaign. Looking at damage at like levels 5-11 would be lot more useful as that's the level range where most of the campaigns take place.
My rank personally.
6 ranger: everyone knows why.
5 monk: ok yes you have stunning strike, but basically any creative person with a high str can stun.( i suplexed a train and stunned it as a barbarian) and what i find worst about monk, is that you can make a monk without going full monk. just go half spell caster and you end up with bigger blast. and the only good feature is stunning blow.
4 paladin: Your spreading yourself insanely thin trying to be each class which is a big problem when your level 20 and realize you still don't have pro in your weapon. still good overall though.
3 fighter: average in all that they do, they can pump out tons of damage and are very customizable still being strong in anyway that you build it.
2 rouge: Sneaky bastard that steals anything and sneak attacks all, with a little support from there party they can back stab people at any point. only problem is they don't have as much hp as some of the others but evasion and a dump truck of Ac can fix that.
1 barbarian: they don't even die. yes sure they may only be good for combat but there REALLY good at combat. never die, there damage isn't high but when your eating all your enemies damage your filling out an amazing role for the party. ( Also Totem barbarian op Af )
Actually the barbarian damage during tier 1 and 2 with the pam gwm build actually does the most amount of damage compared to paladins and fighters
The list was: Ranger, barbarian, monk, fighter, rogue, paladin
I like to see a video on say top 5 favorite multiclass combos including subclass and build. All in all I really like your videos! Keep them coming!
It was completely unfair that you didn't use action surge for fighter but used the class features of every other class when available. Yes i understand that rogue's sneak attack and barbarian rage works every turn, but paladin smites are also limited, and yet you used a third slot every turn. You also payed no attention to spells such as hunters mark or swift quiver for ranger. You also didn't include feats.
You also didn't factor in the fact that earlier levels exist, which is a much more important thing to consider. Paladins might be smiting machines at lvl 20, but at lvl5 they don't have too many slots, especially higher level ones, to spend willy nilly on smiting. Almost Nobody is going to be playing a game that even reaches lvl 20, let alone playing after the fact. Yes I understand that this increases the complexity of the question a lot and basically eliminates all objectivity, but it's worth at least being mentioned.
Here is the thing, he used the third level simtes as that is what the average smite would be like if you used one every turn until you ran out. There is also a massive difference between an ability that you can use twice per long rest and something you can use 15 times per long rest. The other thing about divine smite is that you choose to use it *after* an attack hits, this means that you can just wait until you get a crit and then use a full power smite and absolutely wreck whatever you hit.
@@definitelynotaweeb6879 you literally get 4
@Jerry Dove Anecdotal evidence is not objective. Take a survey, and a good 70-80% of players will say they almost never get all the way to lvl 20 and stay there for long. Most campaigns end around lvl 10-15 or so.
@Jerry Dove www.enworld.org/threads/90-of-d-d-games-stop-by-level-10-wizards-more-popular-at-higher-levels.666097/
Official survey done by Wotc for their splatbooks. No homebrew, admittedly, so you can take it with a grain of salt, but it says that a good 90% if games don't go past level 10. From my own experience this lines up reletively parallel to your average homebrew campaign.
While I'm speaking anecdotally, I have had many games fizzle out long before even then, either due to scheduling conflicts or what have you. The number of campaigns I've actually "completed" are in the single digits. Assuming you're not being a liar as you brag about how great your group is, you're in the minority of players.
You're passing judgement against people who quite literally say that they don't experience the things you do, and given your first comment I assume this is typical for you to hear. And if it's typical, that would mean that you should eventually realize that you're not the majority.
Oh look, the guy deleted his comments because he got shown up so I'd look dumb instead of just apologizing and admitting he's wrong. Typical.
Doing ADPT at level 20 makes this list pointless. it has do be done for the levels people actually play (4-14). The only place where a tier list like this is useful is for a campaign starting at very high level.
Facts and if done that way you would see a be drop for fighters and maybe paladins and a huge rise in barbarian’s placings
@@mohammadmurie And monks, since monks damage basically peaks at level 5, and after that they mostly get utility and defensive abilities.
@@Klaital1 exactly
I think this assessment has a few flaws, assumption being among them.
The biggest of them is that the average dps of the paladin is based on the ability to burn 2 lvl 3 slots per turn and even though the avreage of all 18 spell slots spent smiting is about 8d8 per turn in combat it only lasts for 7 turns, after which the paladin is losing 40 ADPT from smite. At ghe same time you only alot for the ranger to use hunters mark but nothing else for damage, and im pretty sure zephyr strike would add more to ADPT.
Rangers Fighters and Paladins also get access to fighing styles and either land more hits on average or do more damage. The dueling style for example pushes the paladin and the fighter dps up while wielding a longsword, so fighter dpt i creases by 8 and paladin by 4.
Fear the bard's viscous mockery bear totem barbarian.
Fighter is the best, Paladin is next then Rogue IMHO
Fighter is a damage machine, add in feats like great weapon master and mobile or lucky. Great weapon fighting and then throw in an action surge or go samurai and get fighting spirit which is amazing
I'm a paladin guy; but I hear you, bro. I root for the fighter all the time. They're my favorite class to have fighting next to my Paladin. Cheers! 🍻
Playing my first character right now, it's a Paladin, just reached level 2. Time to SMITE!
Great video, but for beginners, I recommend just rolling for it and seeing what role you get. Just my HHO. Keep it up!
First it was the cleric now its the paladin. I smell divine propaganda.
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Probably worth noting this is a combat-based ranking, not necessarily a more versatile game ranking. Which, to be fair, would be way more complicated.
Hold on- 10d6... 40 damage? Not 35?
Absorb Elements, Goodberry, Fog Cloud, Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth, Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Guardian of Nature, Conjure Woodland Beings, Steel Wind Strike, Wrath of Nature. Worst spell list ever.
Now I wonder how strong a fighter with smites would be
It’s crazy how every thing you say, well i almost think the opposit lol!
😂 I'm sorry we're so opposed!
Maybe we can agree more in our future videos!
😄 Are you up to sharing your thinking? It's fun to hear other viewpoints.
10:26 rouges have 6
The Rouge has a lot more damage if you use two short swords and get sneak attack double. And then rush out with cunning action. You get sneak attack cause of the short swords has finesse and that is what you use for a sneak attack
You can only get sneak attack once per turn. And you would need to use your bonus action to attack with the offhand short sword, which would limit you from using your bonus action to disengage.
Adding nothing for action surge undersells fighter... especially since you included a 3rd level smite.
Yeah, I found it quite ludicrous that he added 3rd level spell slot to paladins average damage, while at the same time not adding any spells to rangers average damage, while they both have equal spellcasting, talk about biased calculations.
Are you going to do a breakdown of archetypes per class as well?
That would be smart! I'll add it to the list 😁
Ranger is good as a rogue multiclass. Aside from that it's useless at best.
You had my subscription at "ADPT"
Monk is worse than ranger
Barbarian should be higher