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How grapples can be dangerous! Protect your hydraulic system.
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- Опубликовано: 15 авг 2024
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Hands down the most valuable piece of education I've yet seen on anything related to a tractor. ❤👍
While driving forward slowly, using a rock bucket to screen out large rocks in a freshly cut driveway, I hit a hidden 24" round boulder and the front of my tractor lifted up too quickly for me to react and I burst a 12mm steel hydraulic line. When I tried to buy a compression fitting to mend the line, I found out the entire 30" line had swollen more than a mm oversized. I had a hydraulic tube shop fabricate and repair it for me. Fortunately it only cost $65 and none of my valves were damaged. Those cylinders can easily created pressures that will destroy your hydraulic system quicker than you can blink an eye.
This has been the most important post I've seen in a long while. I didn't realize the grievous error I've been making. Thank you.👍👍👍
Engineer here: The design of the grapple makes a big difference too. It seems the cylinder on that model might be improperly sized. If you swapped the hydraulic cylinder with a bigger one (where the piston has more area and the same stroke) you would not only increase the clamping force of the grapple but also make it more difficult to generate a back-driving pressure as the force is working over more area.
Some quick numbers:
1sq in. piston at 2500psi has 2500lb of actuation force. Against a transient load of 4000 pounds, system overpressure to 4000 psi.
2 sq in. piston at 2500psi has 5000lb of actuation force. Against the same 4000lbf transient from improper loading , system does not even exceed design pressure.
The drawback of course is that the bigger cylinder would take twice as long to fill, so the grapple would take twice as long to close. It may also need a pressure limiter to avoid excessive force on the grapple frame at the design pressure.
Great comment. Always appreciate when someone adds valuable insight/observations in the comment section.
Yes of course but, implements for tractors this size are designed to be budget friendly
Large cylinders would greatly increase cost
So, although fun to watch you don’t recommend grabbing the top of a tree with your grapple and dry humping it with your tractor. Great informative video, had no idea those kinds of pressures could be produced.
Comment of the year
Freaking hilarious!🤣
this is why line reliefs are installed in most hydraulic systems.
the line relief for each circuit will be set 500- 1000 psi higher than system pressure.
this then allows the fluid to pop the relief when the circuit is overloaded from external forces.
that "tee" manifold on the end of your loader where your auxiliary lines attach would be ideal for where to install the line reliefs.
this would allow the pressure to bleed off before damage to the loader/machine could occur.
the problem is training the operators to know when this happens the grapple will open due to the external force being applied.
most operators today would view this happening as something wrong with the cylinders bypassing.
large green and red led lights connected to pressure switches should be on all these newer hydraulic systems.
this would allow the novice operators to know green means ok and red means you are overloading the circuit.
one other feature would be for the "idiot" operator that treat the machine like you showed pulling on tree still in the ground with to small of a machine.
a giant hand should pop out and slap the idiot operator for abusing the machine.
Undoubtedly, this is the most educational and informative video on tractor mechanics I've ever seen!
I honestly believe you're saving lives Neil!! Thanks for yet another great video. A good friend of mine operates an excavation business here in WI... I have always been impressed with his operator skills (and particularly when he used his Kubota KX913S2 mini excavator to unearth an underground structure I purchased) but I'm gaining a new-found respect for the technical elements of what he makes look easy. Good stuff here!!!!! Thank you.
Very interesting video. I just replaced all eight small hoses on the loader of my B2650 after having one burst while using the bucket. Came to find out Kubota installed single wire hoses, I assume because they are cheaper. I installed two wire hoses. I think this is the way a premium tractor should have been made.
A failed hose is cheaper than the valves/pump, You would be surprised how many valves and reliefs are tampered with to allow more force.
I just had 2 acres cleared and the company that did the logging work was running around the property with a Skid Steer with a grapple... Doing a LOT of what you discussed in this video. Through the course of an 8 day job, they blew FIVE... yes... FIVE hydraulic lines on the steer. All related to the grapple. Meanwhile, my tiny little Branson 2205 has NEVER blown a line on the bucket, backhoe or grapple. I take my time, I stop when the machine says NOPE.. I don't push past the operating limits. Yeah it takes me longer to do stuff, but, the price of fuel and grease is cheaper than parts, IF you can even get them... Great video...
Extremely well done and very educational. Neil you and your staff rocked this one - thank you!
One of my favorites.
Thanks for this video. I'm on the hunt for an L4060 and am researching grapples. This is very valuable info, I appreciate you taking the time to educate us.
OMGosh this is a million-dollar video. I see so many youtubers doing exactly what you were demonstrating. A chill just went through my spine; this can do so many potential damages to the wallet.
That's why top end heavy equipment systems use circuit relief valves. They prevent system spikes like you describe. Unfortunately, most aftermarket consumer attachments don't have them..
I add circuit relief valves on all my attachments. A little pricey, but cheap compared to the damages that can happen.
They also help add a safety factor in that if set correctly, the operator cannot overload the machine.
Good hydraulic design is a must!
Sounds like a video waiting to happen!?
I'd love to see photo's of what you've done.
As soon as I saw how fast that little grapple operated, I knew it wasn’t designed properly. Beyond the high pressure lines and safety/lock valve that the better equipment has, the grapple should be designed such that the cylinder has the mechanical advantage over the tongs, not the other way around. Great video!
I saw the same thing and couldn't believe it. My Titan grapple opens/closes much slower at a reasonable rate.
1000% agreed
I also couldn't believe how fast it was and at idle. It's so fast it's almost un useable.
How about a counter video showing how to properly use a grapple?
I'm new and have an L2501 and would appreciate it.
As well can you throw up a link to the grapple you showed at the end?
Good idea.
This is the grapple I use. www.messicks.com/attachment/category/154/artillian-attachments
Also would have been cool at the end to have taken a minute to show what I would use to move those big logs and rip out stumps.
Almost blew out the ankle at the beginning.been there many times,its no joke.
You guys have the best tractor videos. I have a grapple on my L3901 that I love. Two items I wisdom I was taught.
1) It is a tractor, not a dozer
2) when picking up loads with a grapple, beware of offset loads, it can twist the loader frame and bad things happen.
Never even considered the hydraulic pressure issue.
What grapple do you have? Do you have suggestions on which one I should get?
@@nathantooker6080 I purchased from a local company here in North Alabama called Skid Steer Attachment Depot in Brownsboro, AL. I got a 48 inch single cylinder grapple. They are about $1000. You can't get one too heavy because it reduces the lift capacity. It is plenty strong for a tractor.
Great video. Glad I watched it BEFORE the grapple arrived!
I’m beginning to grasp a full understanding...
Great information!
Thanks for the video!! Im sure we all are using our grappler past its limits. This will help me think before I overload mine. Have a Safe Day
Hi Neil,
I'm more in favor of the use of a pressure release valve on the attachment end, in addition to a check valve. The check valve protects the tractor, however the pressure spike is still there when the attachment is still used incorrectly. The pressure release will greatly minimize the spike from happening altogether.
I have also seen many operators user their compact tractor, and like you also mentioned, as a bulldozer. When something doesn't move it gets rammed. Besides potential hydraulic damage, the mechanical stresses on the tractor and loader, can often times be catastrophic!
The same is also true when adding tractor ballast to prevent wheel spin. Wheel spin is the equivalent of a pressure release for the drive train.
Excellent Video! Keep them coming!
I love the grapple episode! Ya know you have got be my favorite RUclips subscription! I wished you guys would have had a store here in Washington! The knowledge you pass on is invaluable! Excellent job educating us, you never fail to impress me!
What a well educated video.. I just shared it with my dad.. He owns 2 Massey's and 1 Landini and I own a CT47 McCormick (sister to LS). Yes loaders can lift heavy, but excessive pressure through hydraulic hoses could disrupt the balance of pressure that the tractor was intended for. Whether it's a grapple, bucket or any attachment. You are right, these are NOT bulldozers and we all tend to push the limit on what the machines can do.. I myself have been struggling trying to figure out why I'm having so much trouble with my hydraulic valve system and excessive pressure through my hydraulic may be the answer.. Thank you for the educated video.
Neal is such a good salesman. He describes everything very well an is also not just trying to steal your money by you coming back more than you actually should have to by educating his customers an every other compact tractor owner for that matter on the do's an don'ts to get the most outta your investment. Definitely someone I recommend ppl to talk to if they in the market for a new toy
Yes, this is a bit late to comment but... A really GOOD explanation for someone who has run Ag tractors a long time, but who hasn't really used front hydraulics. Well done!
I really do appreciate your "training" videos. And, your "walk around" videos. I am sure you know that it is impossible to teach common sense to people who are not born with it. But, at least, you are making certain common sense knowledge available. Thanks for your time and knowledge.
A FANTASTIC VIDEO!
Many people have no clue about the systems, forces, and actions involved. Tractor owners need to see this type of stuff. But will they understand it?
If your diverter valve doesn’t have a pressure relief in it that can send over pressurized oil back to the tank from the close side of the grapple ram, then I’d add one. They’re not too expensive... and can prevent some nasty situations from occurring (high pressure fluid injection injury can be fatal).
Thank you for taking my phone call today! I think the world of you and thanks for this video! I’m in the market for a grapple and really appreciate this!
So im guessing i improperly used my grapple when i ripped the engine out of a Ford Contour. 😂
As always Neil+ staff, great video!!!
You consistently impress with the lessons. I'm betting Kubota loves you guys! (I'm already a Kubota and John Deere fan Kubota owner - BX23S.)
Please keep doing this?
Thanks there to you for opening up the eyes of me, the newbe, to the hidden understandings of how these things operate.
Eye opening for experienced as well as newbies. That's one of things that you don't think about or assume that the pressure relief valve would open.
Yep me 3! Woodbuckit grappler arrives TODAY! This info is like gold!
Good video. This is something I was aware of but had not seen any 'measurements' of, so this was nice. If someone wanted to get into this a little more and customize or build their own equipment, I believe the valve you referenced would be called a pilot operated check valve, or load holding valve. That type of valve ideally would have also stopped the pressure bleed-off you saw when you turned your tractor off earlier in the video, which could make the difference of something slipping or falling out if you happened to turn the tractor off with something grappled and held off the ground (opening another can of safety worms there, i know).
That type of valve doesn't really protect the implement cylinder (including the extended rod..) and lines from the pressure spike though, just the tractor on the other side of the valve. One might also consider a crossover relief valve. That would let the cylinder move once pressure reached a certain point. That would protect both the hydraulic system AND the physical parts (such as the rod you won't want to bend, mounting ears you don't want to crack off, etc etc) from excess force, but it WOULD allow the grapple to slip/move when you're exceeding its limits, which means you need to know where those limits are before you accidentally drop a giant weight on something because you happened to hit a bump while driving near it with the grapple holding something.
I do think your vid did a great job explaining to the guy who's just going to buy something and leave it alone. The above stuff is definitely for the tinkerers to consider 'at their own risk'. Any of this stuff built wrong is going to hurt somebody, someday.
Im buying a grapple next week, Im glad i watched this. I do see the point to it, really on any implement and any action that forces fluid back into the system. Many thanks.
Amazing how the pressure builds up in a pinch! I would imagine the same thing happens with back ho arm when your pushing a tree over pulling down and pushing out same time, you have two cylinders pushing against one.
I was a hydraulic tech for 25 years if you would incorporate a pressure release valve, then set it to max pressure you need in the system, if a over pressure would happen it would simple send the excess pressure back into the tractor hydraulics tank. The only part to see the hi pressure would be the grapple hoses and cylinders saving the tractors system. But then they would only see as much pressure you have set the reliefs valve at to.
Thanks much! Just lifted unbalance log and did what you demoed. Will stop this and be careful, great advice.
Another super interesting (and eye opening) video. Thanks so much for the education Neal! Really appreciate and enjoy your videos. Keep them coming as long as you can!
It's always a good idea to put some protective nylon hose wrap on the exposed hydraulic hoses that are back near the operator. If one of those were to burst during operating it could be an unpleasant experience for the operator.
@the unlikely
thanks much for this video! I was planning on getting one for my little Kubota L2501. Now I'm going to wait or rent as needed. Not worth the possible damage.
REALLY good video - many thanks. Recently bought my first tractor and never considered this.
Good thing hydraulic hoses (and cylinders) have a safety factor of 4:1
That means the burst pressure on a 3000 psi hose should be around 12000 psi.
Thank you for the great information...I'm new to this realm, been watching many videos the past three years and working my new LX2610 for 6months now. This is information I didn't realize...thank your again for the great informational videos you but out there for all. Be well.
All of the "right" advice is at the end, good job!
Great information! Never considered the fact of the back pressure being put back into the machine.
Thanks for the video, I'll be sure to keep this in mind with my new tractor
Excellent video Neil! Informative and interesting. (and yes I’ve done such things....more than once 😉). Also applies to my 4 in one bucket as well. I’ll be thinking about it from now on. BTW, gotta love the out takes 😂!
Good video Neil. Smart to talk about this kind of stuff. Very informative
Great video, I didn't realize how much pressure increased so easily. Good thing I don't do most of those bad habits, but I have definitely carried off center loads.
Great demo - that's not something any operator would realize is happening until there's a puddle of oil. Also, with your grapple offset you are torquing the loader arms really hard. Would be best to center that single grapple assembly.
Keep doing this videos. Really like them.
Excellent job on this video! I would love to see a similar video with a 4 in 1 loader bucket.
Neil before you do too much more abuse to your hydraulics you need to pull your sock up. The Kevlar sock on you loader hoses has slipped out of the loop where the hoses go thru. I have already had to replace my hoses because they had worn thru and were ready to blow. Its a tight fit. Excellent video.
You make great videos and they're always really informative, thanks
good video, and good timing, since I just got my first grapple
What about these principles applied towards the front end loader hydraulics? Like when using the FEL with a bucket or forks.
planning on that.
Was thinking the same thing!
Gray Turner great question as I’m finishing a project that (I felt) was constantly maxing out my bucket
Same here. It will lift the load but feels like its robbing pressure from the steering and it whines terribly
I was thinking a similar thing. Put the gauge on the power beyond line. That way to see if its multiplied by all cylinders at once.
I watched this excellent video. I am going to go out and apologize to my tractor now and use my grapple a little more carefully in the future.
Great video. Very informative. The force of the load should remain on the lower portion of the grapple bucket as a lifting manuever and balanced from side-to-side.
Thank you for great video. I have only one comment. At first example the system was still under pressure even after the engine was shutoff. Do not touch hoses with naked hands. This is very dangerous as it might cause hydraulic injection injury which can be leathal.
Hey Neil, I talked about this video in my most recent video installing a .3rd function, I linked this video in my video description hope you don’t mind. It’s a great video!
I'm far less worried about your hydraulics than I am about you starting that cold diesel and revving it up to work power immediately and then shutting it off and on and off and on and off
But this content is amazing and is going to save money and limbs for people.
I have a grapple on my M7060 and it is awesome but I can see where there can be problems. It is sized for a skidsteer and I use it for moving brush, trees and rootballs. Been worth the investment.
THANK YOU, Neil. Great info, never occurred to me. (I’m glad I haven’t used my grapple that way in ignorance!)
Wow. Great video. Thanks for putting your tractor through this for us. 💐👍
Great video!!! As a newbie!! I appreciate your explanation and warning "Your machine is NOT a Bulldozer, it is a tractor" -- Understood!! 🙄
Great info! I had no idea an implement could generate those elevated pressures!
I didn't know what kind of pressures were involved, but common sense ( I know, for some, it's really scarce these days!) would tell you not to force the hydraulics and use the tractor like it's indestructible. Thanks for sharing some of the other things to keep in mind when using the grapple, or any hydraulic-driven implement.
Okay I just have to ask all tractors and pieces of equipment have a hydraulic relief pressure set at say 2,900 for a 3000 psi system. Does that not kick in before all of this extra pressure that you are referring to? Thanks
Great question. Your on the other side of the 3rd function at this point, so the tractor does not take the hit. The 3rd func can have a relief, but they don't flow enough to prevent the spikes i recorded.
I'm surprised you didn't edit out you rolling your ankle. Glad you didn't hurt yourself >.
Great video, one time I was moving a long log off center & a hose blew on the grapple & a laser beam of hydraulic oil
Great video, one time I was moving a long log off center & a hose blew on the grapple & a hot laser beam of hydraulic oil shot right at my left eye and over my left shoulder. Thankfully I had safety glasses on but I was really really fortunate. You really have to watch your hoses on a skid steer bc you are so close to them
My baffle is coming tomorrow, can't wait to see what I can get into, glad I watched, may be getting a bigger Massey Ferguson, I got a 40 horse tractor maybe a 65 would be better.
Also check the fluid level in the reservoir each time you start using a new hydraulic implement.
Filling the lines and cylinders will deplete the sump.
Good information to know but also make sure to install single grapple in the center of the carrier or you are taking a chance of bending/twisting your front loader.
So tomorrow, Messick's will have a "gently used, never abused" B3350 for sale with lots of attachments!
The LX is out now 😀
Just on time. I am about to pick up a LP SGC0660 for my B2601.
Very good video. Great to actually show the pressure experienced. I bought a pressure gage from Ken's but like yours better with the peek hold.
I am guessing you have 2 of the grapple units shown. I bought the Artillian front frame for the 2x2 ball mount. I need the grapple next.
Great demonstration...I'm very good at breaking stuff...I'm getting my first grapple so your video might save a headache
What’s that saying… a Cobblers kids have no shoes. 😂
playing "battleship" in physics lowers the life expectancy ;-)
Isn’t there some sort of in-line check valve that can be utilized to prevent this problem? A check-valve that can be placed at the point where the grapple hooks up to the tractor hydraulics.
Thanks,
Yep. one shown at the end of the video.
Great video. Thanks - Makes perfect sense. Glad I saw it before getting a tractor/grapple.
first thing i installed on my grapple was a double piloted check valve. with hoses and all cost me just under 200.00 well worth it! the grapple stays in the closed position and only leaks down if its an internal cylinder leak or hose right at the cylinder before the check valve. i have a video on that on my channel.
Can you send photo's or video? I'd like to share in a follow up video? neilm@messicks.com
@@MessicksEquip I will try to locate the actual video and email it to you but here is the online version ruclips.net/video/JHcr9_0HM5g/видео.html
I recently added a 3rd function to my 2017 L2501 and I love the grapple but I have had to replace two hydraulic line since the installation. I guess maybe this is a good explanation on why they failed and what I should not be doing with my grapple.. Thank you.
Tractor manufacturers are still building these machines like grampaw's row crop tractor, but tractor buyers operate them like construction equipment. If manufacturers engineered compact utilities to withstand the heavy use they are subject to in most cases, the machine would be triple the cost. What's the msrp on the tractor in this video vs. the skid steer in this video?
true. You'd buy three tractors to that track loader.
Good morning Neal. Excellent video (again). Very educational. And very helpful especially for new tractor owners learning how to operate their new machine. I agree with most everything you said, especially as it pertains to lifting loads that are offset or not centred etc, using the jaw to pull or push against stumps, loads etc. However, I wanted to ask you to explain further what you mean by "trying to lift loads too heavy for your tractor". Whether using a bucket, grapple or other FEL attachment, it is my understanding that the tractor will not lift something that is "too heavy for the tractor". It simply does not lift it as the system has relief valves in it. In other words, it is not possible to lift something "too heavy". If the tractor is engineered to lift 1,000 lbs and I try to lift 1500 lbs, the loader just simply doesn't lift it. Is that correct or perhaps I have misunderstood? Your advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again - excellent video series! Cheers!
your are correct. My point here was how you do it matters.
Great information Neil
Awesome video and information - Thanks
We should send this video to the everything attachments guy
they know they seen my video where i installed one years ago on my grapple. first thing i did when i got it.
There are normally relief valves to prevent blowing out the lines.... if a hydraulic system is properly designed.
There are relief's speced on the 3rd function valves, I don't think they can dump the oil fast enough though to prevent the spikes I recorded.
I was wondering the same thing.
Funny boy with All the Right TOYS!
how do you have your saw mounted to your tractor? i have a B2601 and have been looking to do the same.
messicks.com/part/SH001CCT/sawhaul-universal-chainsaw-carrier-kit-for-tr
Interested in that Chainsaw holder...anyone know where I can get one? Thanks!!!!
messicks.com/part/SH001CCT/sawhaul-universal-chainsaw-carrier-kit-for-tr
Anyone else notice the chainsaw mounted to the side of the tractor?
If the valve is in the closed position, the pressure should not be rising past the valve. Sure the lines and everything forward will experience the increase pressure but how can it get to the tractor internally???
3:49 LOL
Should I buy a bx
Depends on the application but I am thrilled with my BX23S. I only have 1 acre but I am constantly finding random tasks to do with it. I have a little over 100 hours on it in under 2 years and I use the backhoe more often than I ever thought I would.
Great vid,
The bucket / grapple are NOT pry bars.
Would the hitch bar and a chain be better for yanking and tugging ?
I mean this 100 percent constructively.
3000 psi would be normal operating pressure. Max pressure would be 2 or even 3 times in excess of that and burst pressure would be potentially 4-5 times higher. All im getting at is these max pressures are designed into the system. At least in my opinion. Any thoughts on that
Yea, that's why you don't see the hoses bursting. We do see problems with the solenoids on the valves.
@@MessicksEquip good to know ill see if i can either buy the better grapple or get a check valve set up when i get to that point. Great video
you can add the same functionality to any cylinder by installing a check valve right on the cylinder. Available here: www.agristoreusa.com/collections/hydraulic-valves/products/check-valve-with-3-8-npt-ports. They come standard on their hydraulic top links for a different reason but work in the same way described here.
Very good information and quantifiable data here. Thanks. - In God I trust, all others bring Data -
Great information Neil.