*Nelsen The Editor* here: Sorry about the sound clipping in the demos. Something weird happened with the export. I'll definitely do better in the next one
On the inflation front. I have a 1957 Gibson GA-8 amp, spent $1200 CAD for it. I found a price guide for that model amp from 1960 it was $87.50 USD which today is about $920 USD, which is about $1200 CAD. I paid retail 80 years later.
My wife picked me up an inspired by Gibson 335 (ice tea burst) for my birthday. She'd seen me sitting in the music shop playing it several times. I'm just blown away by how amazing it plays. I've never had a problem with paying more for Chinese made guitars. There's this odd perception by many that this makes it inferior, as if that country hasn't been making stringed instruments significantly longer than any made on this continent. When these shops get to make fantastic guitars without the restraints placed upon them by their parent company, they can create fantastic instruments. The PRS Hollow-Body Piezo II Se is a great example of this. More expensive than expected, absolutely. But then you play it and hear it and realize why. Great episode guys.
I wonder if the reaction would be different if the $1000+ Epiphones were made in Indonesia or South Korea instead of China. I feel like a lot of people saying “I wouldn’t pay $1000+ for an Epiphone” are really saying “I wouldn’t pay $1000+ for a guitar made in China.”
As you mentioned, its not just Gibson. Fender is now charging $799 for the Mexican made Player Stratocaster (current version of the old Standard Stratocaster, that they used to charge $499 for). Epiphone, Gibson, Fender, PRS are all raising their prices. But I will hand it to Epiphone -- the quality of their recent guitars has improved dramatically. Their specialty guitars, like Signiture models, and Anniversary models, cost a lot, but are still half the price of a Gibson. I have a Gibson 1963 RI ES-335, which I paid almost $3000 used for. I also have an Epiphone ES-335 from about a year ago (probably a 2022 or 2023 model), which cost me $499 on sale (regularly $599). It is a great guitar - much better by far than the old Epiphone "Dot". Now there is a Bonamassa Epiphone ES-335 that is a recreation of his Cherry 1962 Gibson. It costs $1299. It is probably a nicer guitar in some ways than my $599 model. It inlcudes Gibson Burstbucker pickups and a hard shell case. So $599 plus $200 for pickups and $200 for hardshell case = $999. And there is a Vibrola (another $200?). It will be worth it to some players, and they will sell.
I used to own the red crestwood. Killer guitar! Mini buckers aren't for me, I traded it for a CV mustang. Last week I traded the mustang for a cv jazzmaster. Going the trade route with cheap guitars is great fun. Doesn't brake the bank and you get your GAS on at the same time 🎉🎉
It's a question of context. I mean, have you tried to get a gig lately? We're almost at the days of "pay-to-play" from the mid-to-late 80's. So, if gigs are out for most players, what's the criteria for a "good guitar"? I'd say something that records well, since very likely the main way it'll be heard is on Soundcloud, or Bandcamp or whatnot. So, for that, in the market, right now, there are a lot of options at about 600 bucks. With things like Reverb around, the need to be limited to the inventory at local shops is done, so, "new" or "used" doesn't matter as much. Brand name doesn't matter as much. So, in that context, I'd say, yeah, the new Epiphones are over-priced. I mean, in the past year, alone, I've purchased an Agile, an Eastwood, a Fender, a Harley Benton, and a Yamaha, all of which would work as "good guitars", none over 700 bucks, and I'm a lefty, so that's with pretty limited options, and all are equivalent or better than what Epiphone is currently offering.
I think they are, especially with the upgraded pickups and some come with hard cases. For me I rather customize it. I accidentally adopted an Epi Alpine white LP custom brand new $649, put in gold Grover keystone locking machine heads, gold DiMarzio super D bridge humbucker, White with gold posts Steve Morse neck pickup, StewMac premium wire kit with gold push/pull CTS pots, orange capacitors, gold switchcraft three way toggle. I had the humbucker and neck CTS volume / tone positions swapped so the bridge volume / tone are closest to the humbucker. I already had an SKB hardshell for an LP All together I spent about what the more expensive Epi’s cost, but probably better hardware etc.
The $500-ish Epi guitars have been solid, and the price hikes on the preexisting models haven’t been significant. Seriously amazed how good my LP Classic Worn is, and I’ve been running stock pickups for a year now. The newer stuff is trying to give a reason to pay more, but seriously try the less premium stuff and see that it isn’t that far off premium.
I like the longer discussion after the playing. It felt a bit more like a split between a review and a podcast segment. I'm going to be very interested in comparing my Epiphone 335 to the new Inspired by Gibson line. It's pretty much double what I paid for mine, and I'm skeptical that other than the aesthetic part, it's truly an upgrade. The model I have already used bigger pots and is solidly built. The new one looks more like a Gibson and has Gibson brand pickups, fair enough. My takeaway is they are offering value compared to the similar Gibson model, but it's not actually where the Epiphone brand itself provides value within its own lineup.
You said it yourselves 😁 a lot of the talking points that can be had in here are (mostly) shut down with 'well, adjusting for inflation...' 😄 My example is I've got a 2007 US Strat that cost me £629 then, when the cheapest equivalent I can find now is £1090... which sounds like a jump, but it's exactly the same price adjusted for inflation 😄 With Gibsons/Epiphone, I suppose Gibson have the issue of that (for the sake of simple comparison) their cheapest guitar in their brand is on similar level to a US Fender (or maybe higher, they do try to position themselves slightly above Fender, right or wrong), where you can still get a Fender for a little cheaper (MIM/MIJ), or another little step down and you get into Squiers. Epiphones have to make up the MIM/MIJ Fender territory, if that makes sense, as well as the Squier territory, so you get wild price differences with Epiphones - so the pricier ones will of course leave some thinking 'that much for an Epiphone?' Having played a bunch/owning too many guitars, I think 'you get what you pay for' mostly applies, with a little bit of the ol' law of diminishing returns the more you spend. ...I started this comment making the point of 'it's kinda simple really' and then went off on a multifaceted ramble 😅 Oops!
Do feel like epiphone are bumping the brand to the mid-tier. I recall mention of the group perhaps bringing in Maestro as a new entry-level brand, then Gibson becomes the USA only premium brand, without the studio type stripped back models.
I’d love to see you guys do a tone test on a Gretsch electromatic g5422. I’ve seen loads of reviews saying the filtertrons cover everything from blues to doom. It would be great to see if it worked for each of your playing styles and tones. On an Epi note, I’ve not really been impressed with the epiphone price to quality ratio compared to Squier.
As a broke-ass accountant (who mostly plays used stuff from Korea or Indonesia), I don't mind saying there are definitely some broke-ass economists out there.
Epiphone have been killing it with their IBG series the last few years, and it's done their reputation a lot of good. Now they're appealing to the Gibby fans by putting some USA electronics in Chinese made guitars and asking double for it. Nice try, but I'm not buying it 😊 Nice vid, even thought the out of sync bits with Xander's playing turned out kinda funny. You guys get away with that kinda stuff 😉 Oh and I chuckled at Xander the Gibson expert, who didn't recognize his own LP from the Epiphone one - which he gallantly admitted too, and that's why we love you guys 🤟🏼
The £500-£800 Epiphones? Yeah, worth it. The £1.5k Epiphones? Absolutely f'n not. Premium spec chinese guitars do exist, but none are sold under the Epiphone banner afaik. They're owned by a finance bro hedge fund now, and are gouging premium prices for mid tier instruments. Anybody paying those prices is a rube IMO. Brands like Halo and Reverend for example, (or Shijie, or Eastman, for fully made and finished in China) are the brands truly showing just how good a guitar chinese builders can make.
On the value of a pickup, every pickup has roughly $10 of raw materials in them. When Gibson sells them for $200+ that is them making a massive profit. So when it’s included on a guitar I don’t think it’s fair to say the value is $200. The actual cost is so low it’s a bit of a scam imo. Not blaming you specifically just this conversation around the value of Gibson pickups in general.
I mean to be fair, we’re not paying the price of materials we’re paying the price of the final product. And most boutique pickups are going to be in the same price point.
@@JasonTMays right but to say the street price of two pickups is $400 is correct while ignoring that the value doesn’t have to be added in full to the guitars price. I’m guessing they predicted the sales to be high on these models so they can absolutely do what they did. I guess my point is that adding 400 to the guitars price for 400 worth of pickups doesn’t make it a value or good buy. It’s simply what you pay for that item anywhere.
@@jamesmarkham7489 perhaps I misstated, but I was saying the price for both pickups are $200. Not $200 a piece. And that’s if you bought them on their own. I think we may have to agree to disagree, because the pickups in the 150th anniversary aren’t the typical pickups that ship with the regular Crestwood, and it would be unfair to hold that against Gibson when other manufacturers do the same thing, PRS just did it with the S2 line up, fender does it when they add duncans or any of their own custom shop pickups.
The way I look at it (and I did this to an Epi Sheraton) is if I were to buy those pickups myself (and the case) to make a similar product and the cost brings it up to the price of the Epi with the case and pickups already installed, well I just saved myself the labour or paying a tech. That kind of makes it a no-brainer value-wise.
When Squier is cranking out great guitars for under $500 (paranormal series, J Mascis Jazzmasters, etc.) there is no excuse for Gibson to be selling anything for over $800, let alone over a grand. There are some great Epiphone guitars but Gibson is a garbage company that thinks their name has more cache than it does in this day and age.
Squiers are going up as well, they’re not cheap anymore. My custom Jazzmaster I built cost me less than what a used one goes for here in SoCal. I didn’t cheap out on the hardware nor pickups either, it plays and sounds better than my neighbors American pro II model….. for 1/5th the price of that.
Epiphone also uses set-neck construction, carved top, and other types of wood and processes. You aren’t really properly considering all the factors. I will say, I’m not interested in the products over a grand just because they have a Gibson open book headstock. I actually prefer my ‘60s Standard with the Kalamazoo headstock. I got it for around $500 when they first came out and it’s still one of my favorites, and easily my most comfortable.
This whole bitching about Epiphone thing for me personally is water off a duck. Gibson is the last company to use the same headstock across the board, everyone else has been doing it for decades. People, myself included have asked for decades for Gibson to just make a Gibson outside the US....they do it's Epiphone & now they look they same. Epiphones are Gibsons just get used to calling them that, like we all call LTD ESPs, or Sterling Music Mans, or PRS SE PRSs, or Squier Fenders. Which has actually swung around so far that saying Squier has become a mark of pride.
*Nelsen The Editor* here:
Sorry about the sound clipping in the demos.
Something weird happened with the export.
I'll definitely do better in the next one
Thanks Nelson 👍
It’s all good.
Y'all had me at "Please clap" 👏 👏 👏
On the inflation front. I have a 1957 Gibson GA-8 amp, spent $1200 CAD for it. I found a price guide for that model amp from 1960 it was $87.50 USD which today is about $920 USD, which is about $1200 CAD. I paid retail 80 years later.
My wife picked me up an inspired by Gibson 335 (ice tea burst) for my birthday. She'd seen me sitting in the music shop playing it several times. I'm just blown away by how amazing it plays.
I've never had a problem with paying more for Chinese made guitars. There's this odd perception by many that this makes it inferior, as if that country hasn't been making stringed instruments significantly longer than any made on this continent. When these shops get to make fantastic guitars without the restraints placed upon them by their parent company, they can create fantastic instruments. The PRS Hollow-Body Piezo II Se is a great example of this. More expensive than expected, absolutely. But then you play it and hear it and realize why.
Great episode guys.
I'll give you a hint and the word starts like "ray" and ends with "ists". Or at the very least starts with "jingo"-.
They have CNC machines everywhere these days
I wonder if the reaction would be different if the $1000+ Epiphones were made in Indonesia or South Korea instead of China. I feel like a lot of people saying “I wouldn’t pay $1000+ for an Epiphone” are really saying “I wouldn’t pay $1000+ for a guitar made in China.”
Bingo!
and that's weird
As you mentioned, its not just Gibson. Fender is now charging $799 for the Mexican made Player Stratocaster (current version of the old Standard Stratocaster, that they used to charge $499 for). Epiphone, Gibson, Fender, PRS are all raising their prices. But I will hand it to Epiphone -- the quality of their recent guitars has improved dramatically. Their specialty guitars, like Signiture models, and Anniversary models, cost a lot, but are still half the price of a Gibson. I have a Gibson 1963 RI ES-335, which I paid almost $3000 used for. I also have an Epiphone ES-335 from about a year ago (probably a 2022 or 2023 model), which cost me $499 on sale (regularly $599). It is a great guitar - much better by far than the old Epiphone "Dot". Now there is a Bonamassa Epiphone ES-335 that is a recreation of his Cherry 1962 Gibson. It costs $1299. It is probably a nicer guitar in some ways than my $599 model. It inlcudes Gibson Burstbucker pickups and a hard shell case. So $599 plus $200 for pickups and $200 for hardshell case = $999. And there is a Vibrola (another $200?). It will be worth it to some players, and they will sell.
I used to own the red crestwood. Killer guitar! Mini buckers aren't for me, I traded it for a CV mustang. Last week I traded the mustang for a cv jazzmaster. Going the trade route with cheap guitars is great fun. Doesn't brake the bank and you get your GAS on at the same time 🎉🎉
It's a question of context. I mean, have you tried to get a gig lately? We're almost at the days of "pay-to-play" from the mid-to-late 80's. So, if gigs are out for most players, what's the criteria for a "good guitar"? I'd say something that records well, since very likely the main way it'll be heard is on Soundcloud, or Bandcamp or whatnot. So, for that, in the market, right now, there are a lot of options at about 600 bucks. With things like Reverb around, the need to be limited to the inventory at local shops is done, so, "new" or "used" doesn't matter as much. Brand name doesn't matter as much. So, in that context, I'd say, yeah, the new Epiphones are over-priced. I mean, in the past year, alone, I've purchased an Agile, an Eastwood, a Fender, a Harley Benton, and a Yamaha, all of which would work as "good guitars", none over 700 bucks, and I'm a lefty, so that's with pretty limited options, and all are equivalent or better than what Epiphone is currently offering.
I think they are, especially with the upgraded pickups and some come with hard cases. For me I rather customize it. I accidentally adopted an Epi Alpine white LP custom brand new $649, put in gold Grover keystone locking machine heads, gold DiMarzio super D bridge humbucker, White with gold posts Steve Morse neck pickup, StewMac premium wire kit with gold push/pull CTS pots, orange capacitors, gold switchcraft three way toggle. I had the humbucker and neck CTS volume / tone positions swapped so the bridge volume / tone are closest to the humbucker. I already had an SKB hardshell for an LP
All together I spent about what the more expensive Epi’s cost, but probably better hardware etc.
The $500-ish Epi guitars have been solid, and the price hikes on the preexisting models haven’t been significant. Seriously amazed how good my LP Classic Worn is, and I’ve been running stock pickups for a year now. The newer stuff is trying to give a reason to pay more, but seriously try the less premium stuff and see that it isn’t that far off premium.
Laughed out loud at "if you're an economist" xD
I like the longer discussion after the playing. It felt a bit more like a split between a review and a podcast segment. I'm going to be very interested in comparing my Epiphone 335 to the new Inspired by Gibson line. It's pretty much double what I paid for mine, and I'm skeptical that other than the aesthetic part, it's truly an upgrade. The model I have already used bigger pots and is solidly built. The new one looks more like a Gibson and has Gibson brand pickups, fair enough. My takeaway is they are offering value compared to the similar Gibson model, but it's not actually where the Epiphone brand itself provides value within its own lineup.
I definitely want to do more stuff like this.
I like your channel. It seems like you tell it like it is. I appreciate that!
You said it yourselves 😁 a lot of the talking points that can be had in here are (mostly) shut down with 'well, adjusting for inflation...' 😄
My example is I've got a 2007 US Strat that cost me £629 then, when the cheapest equivalent I can find now is £1090... which sounds like a jump, but it's exactly the same price adjusted for inflation 😄
With Gibsons/Epiphone, I suppose Gibson have the issue of that (for the sake of simple comparison) their cheapest guitar in their brand is on similar level to a US Fender (or maybe higher, they do try to position themselves slightly above Fender, right or wrong), where you can still get a Fender for a little cheaper (MIM/MIJ), or another little step down and you get into Squiers. Epiphones have to make up the MIM/MIJ Fender territory, if that makes sense, as well as the Squier territory, so you get wild price differences with Epiphones - so the pricier ones will of course leave some thinking 'that much for an Epiphone?'
Having played a bunch/owning too many guitars, I think 'you get what you pay for' mostly applies, with a little bit of the ol' law of diminishing returns the more you spend.
...I started this comment making the point of 'it's kinda simple really' and then went off on a multifaceted ramble 😅 Oops!
Dibs on the sweaty hat
Do feel like epiphone are bumping the brand to the mid-tier. I recall mention of the group perhaps bringing in Maestro as a new entry-level brand, then Gibson becomes the USA only premium brand, without the studio type stripped back models.
I’d love to see you guys do a tone test on a Gretsch electromatic g5422. I’ve seen loads of reviews saying the filtertrons cover everything from blues to doom. It would be great to see if it worked for each of your playing styles and tones.
On an Epi note, I’ve not really been impressed with the epiphone price to quality ratio compared to Squier.
never expected to hear a piano rendition of the dragon ball gt theme here but hey great taste
For Toryiama-sama
As a broke-ass accountant (who mostly plays used stuff from Korea or Indonesia), I don't mind saying there are definitely some broke-ass economists out there.
Epiphone have been killing it with their IBG series the last few years, and it's done their reputation a lot of good. Now they're appealing to the Gibby fans by putting some USA electronics in Chinese made guitars and asking double for it. Nice try, but I'm not buying it 😊
Nice vid, even thought the out of sync bits with Xander's playing turned out kinda funny. You guys get away with that kinda stuff 😉
Oh and I chuckled at Xander the Gibson expert, who didn't recognize his own LP from the Epiphone one - which he gallantly admitted too, and that's why we love you guys 🤟🏼
The £500-£800 Epiphones? Yeah, worth it. The £1.5k Epiphones? Absolutely f'n not.
Premium spec chinese guitars do exist, but none are sold under the Epiphone banner afaik. They're owned by a finance bro hedge fund now, and are gouging premium prices for mid tier instruments. Anybody paying those prices is a rube IMO.
Brands like Halo and Reverend for example, (or Shijie, or Eastman, for fully made and finished in China) are the brands truly showing just how good a guitar chinese builders can make.
I’ll take a high quality $1200 Epiphone over anything from the old Gibson Tribute line (roughly same price in today’s dollars).
On the value of a pickup, every pickup has roughly $10 of raw materials in them. When Gibson sells them for $200+ that is them making a massive profit. So when it’s included on a guitar I don’t think it’s fair to say the value is $200. The actual cost is so low it’s a bit of a scam imo. Not blaming you specifically just this conversation around the value of Gibson pickups in general.
I mean to be fair, we’re not paying the price of materials we’re paying the price of the final product. And most boutique pickups are going to be in the same price point.
@@JasonTMays right but to say the street price of two pickups is $400 is correct while ignoring that the value doesn’t have to be added in full to the guitars price. I’m guessing they predicted the sales to be high on these models so they can absolutely do what they did.
I guess my point is that adding 400 to the guitars price for 400 worth of pickups doesn’t make it a value or good buy. It’s simply what you pay for that item anywhere.
@@jamesmarkham7489 perhaps I misstated, but I was saying the price for both pickups are $200. Not $200 a piece. And that’s if you bought them on their own.
I think we may have to agree to disagree, because the pickups in the 150th anniversary aren’t the typical pickups that ship with the regular Crestwood, and it would be unfair to hold that against Gibson when other manufacturers do the same thing, PRS just did it with the S2 line up, fender does it when they add duncans or any of their own custom shop pickups.
The way I look at it (and I did this to an Epi Sheraton) is if I were to buy those pickups myself (and the case) to make a similar product and the cost brings it up to the price of the Epi with the case and pickups already installed, well I just saved myself the labour or paying a tech. That kind of makes it a no-brainer value-wise.
@@teaandcomics1 THANK YOU! lol
Adding on inflation and then subtract for production efficiency. The difference goes to ceo salaries and shareholders.
Ahh the parasite classes. Time for a purgative imo.
Love me my coronet
As an actual trained economist, you could not have provided a better, more accurate appraisal if you wrote a phd paper on it. Great job
Noice
I don’t think so honestly, for half the price you can get a Kramer. Made in the exact same factory, usually with better specs….
Xander! Stoked to see you rockin' the "Get Out the Voight" Majority Report T-shirt. Left is best comrade!
When Squier is cranking out great guitars for under $500 (paranormal series, J Mascis Jazzmasters, etc.) there is no excuse for Gibson to be selling anything for over $800, let alone over a grand. There are some great Epiphone guitars but Gibson is a garbage company that thinks their name has more cache than it does in this day and age.
Squiers are going up as well, they’re not cheap anymore. My custom Jazzmaster I built cost me less than what a used one goes for here in SoCal.
I didn’t cheap out on the hardware nor pickups either, it plays and sounds better than my neighbors American pro II model….. for 1/5th the price of that.
Epiphone also uses set-neck construction, carved top, and other types of wood and processes. You aren’t really properly considering all the factors. I will say, I’m not interested in the products over a grand just because they have a Gibson open book headstock. I actually prefer my ‘60s Standard with the Kalamazoo headstock. I got it for around $500 when they first came out and it’s still one of my favorites, and easily my most comfortable.
This whole bitching about Epiphone thing for me personally is water off a duck. Gibson is the last company to use the same headstock across the board, everyone else has been doing it for decades. People, myself included have asked for decades for Gibson to just make a Gibson outside the US....they do it's Epiphone & now they look they same. Epiphones are Gibsons just get used to calling them that, like we all call LTD ESPs, or Sterling Music Mans, or PRS SE PRSs, or Squier Fenders. Which has actually swung around so far that saying Squier has become a mark of pride.