It's like when the mormon god has a message for the faithful, why is the message always delivered thru the cult leader, the sex trafficker or the pedophile??
Woe unto you, [“LDS” RUclipsrs and practitioners of priestcraft], hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, [“LDS” RUclipsrs and practitioners of priestcraft], hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within [you] are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind [“LDS” RUclipsr], cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, [“LDS” RUclipsrs and practitioners of priestcraft], hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, [“LDS” RUclipsrs and practitioners of priestcraft], hypocrites! Because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, [The Lord] send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your [comment sections], and persecute them from city to city and [video to video]: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would [the Lord] have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Jesus, Matthew 23; 11-38) “[For] upon [the Lord’s] house shall it begin [destruction of the wicked], and from [His] house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you [Latter -day Saints], saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.” (Jesus, D&C 112: 25-26) “O Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto [the Lord] with their mouth, and honoureth [the Lord] with their lips; but their heart is far from [Him]. But in vain they do worship [Him], teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Hear, and understand: Then came [them which say unto me], Knowest thou that the [Saints] [are] offended, after they heard this saying? [To which I declare] every plant, which [our] heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Jesus, Mat
I feel like I have learned and understand about 10x more about church history after watching your videos for a couple weeks than I learned in 28 years of church membership. I've been out for a very long time, and I thought I had learned a lot, but I had no idea about this history around exploitation of vulnerable women in England & Europe. It is absolutely sickening!!! This was a hard episode to watch, and I'm still teary eyed. It's so important to learn and know about this stuff. Thank you all for your hard work!!
Why are you believing this?? This channel only exists to destroy peoples faith and cause them to leave the church. John gets giddy over the thought of it. Sometimes his "concerned" mask drops and you can literally see it.
@@tamaraelsberry6630 I believe it simply because it's true, to the best of my discernment. If you have contrary evidence, I'm happy to see it. Please share it. As always, Mormon stories was thorough in providing an abundance of references, many from prominent publications of the time, and many coming from the churches own sources. I have no logical reason to question these sources. It's easy to let emotion guide you over reason. Hell, it still happens to me all the time, I'll admit it. But, I don't share your assessment of John at all. To me he seems genuine and sincere. He admits when he presents incorrect information, is open about his intentions, doesn't claim to be perfect, speak for God, nor have all the answers. He openly shares his organization's finances and invites intellectual discourse, including dissenting opinions. The brethren in SLC have never offered any of this from my perspective. I have no trust in them at all. Im sorry that you feel the way you do, and I sincerely wish the best for you, and hope you find peace with your beliefs. It didn't work out that way for me in the church, but everyone is different and unique, and has the right to follow their own journey. Best wishes!
I'm glad Nemo brought up A Study in Scarlet. I remember reading that when I was still TBM and being SO offended at that egregiously offensive and inaccurate portrayal of the early church in UT. I thought it was right and correct that there was an apology from the descendants of Conan Doyle published in the copy that I read. How little I knew. I've thought about that often as I've learned more and more about the early church. How a non-Mormon fiction writer in the mid-1800's to early 1900's knew more about the actual climate of early Mormonism than I, a lifetime member, did.
I was a pregnant teen with a family that is very involved in the church and when I was pregnant that was the only time my parents allowed me not to attend, and members stopped reaching out.
I just watch the Netflix series "How to be a cult leader" and its amazing how every step was followed by JS. The accounts of those coming to Nauvoo is so similar to those of Jonestown. And the giving of daughters really fits the exertion of control that is typically just seen monetarily
This and episode 1815 are the most disturbing episodes of MSP I have heard. Joseph Smith was an absolute monster……even for the time period. In America in mid 19th Century, the average ages for first time marriages were mid 20s. Marrying minors was NOT the norm. And sex trafficking was not the norm, either, let alone polygamy. The man was a giant narcissist, con-man and criminal. I regret being in the church for even the four years I was as a young adolescent back in the 80s. NOBODY told me the truth about the church’s history before or after I was baptized. And no wonder. The true history is absolutely revolting.
I’ve read a lot on Benjamin Franklin Johnson. I think there was something between Joseph and Benjamin that would put Joseph at risk for pushing him. They were close and Joseph called him Bennie. So maybe he knew his limits already? Also Benjamin’s mother was sealed to Joseph Smith Sr. But I cannot remember if it was after Sr. Death or not
About 5 years ago a buddy and I were flying a small plane over southern Idaho. We had heard rumors that there was a big polygamist compound a few hrs drive to middle of nowhere. We found it and it was about as creepy looking as it gets. I will describe what I saw, there were two big mansions painted white with perfect lawns ect. The he whole place had a fence inside a fence surrounding it. Between the two houses were probably two dozen school busses with no tires or wheels visible kinda sunk into mud it looked like. We circled around it a bunch of times trying to piece together what we were looking at. It looked like to me that the women lived in the muddy nasty looking bus junkyard in the buses. You could see a few women around little campfires cooking. About half the buses had chains and padlocks on the doors obviously locking someone inside. It looked like the bus junkyard was surrounded by a fence with razor wire on top like a prison. The place gave off the worst vibes. We kept telling each other that don’t look right. WTF over and over. Anyways no Idea if they were Mormon but that area of Idaho is 98% Mormon except a few mexicans helping on the farm. So yeah that’s my story. I have felt guilty for not going and rescuing all the sex slaves but maybe they don’t want to be rescued. Maybe it wasn’t what it looked like and it was just my imagination. I doubt it. So sad
striker (n.) late 14c., "vagabond," agent noun from strike (v.) What is the archaic definition of striker? (obsolete) An inexperienced member of a ship's crew. synonym ▲ Synonym: green hand. (obsolete) A wencher; a lewd man. (obsolete, politics) A blackmailer in politics. (obsolete, politics) One whose political influence can be bought.
I mean until recently women couldnt have a bank account or property in their own name so they didn't have a lot of power/voice. Someone offers food/shelter/salvation and it wasn't that it was a good option, but rather that it was a means of meeting basic needs
Can confirm church culture at least still sends unwed pregnant women away. My family member said if I'd have ever gotten pregnant we'd have had to move to another state (bc of the public shame). And that it would've been better had I not been born. Guess we really lucked out! *eyeroll* And I was out of high school even. In college.
My best friend in highschool with about 8 other girls were sent to fruit heights school for mothers at 16 from Wy. And all forced to give up children. They just disappeared and came back like nothing happened to them. It traumatized me...
Back in the nineties we had a teen girl who was pregnant start attending our word. She stayed with a family. At church she was sheltered from the other teens. Basically she stayed with the host family 24/7. Come to find out, her Dad was very high up in the church. She was from Utah and they literally sent her over 2,000 miles away. Her name was a given name she used so no one knew her real name. She was forced to have the child with the host family. Her family never came to visit. Once the child was born, it was immediately adopted through the church agency. She had no choice. Then after the birth she went back home as if nothing happened and she was gone for reasons to better her education. As a teen myself I thought how horrible. How could any parent do that to there child and grandchild. I already at that point knew the church was a fraud, but at that time I was stuck. Glad I am free.
@randyjordan5521 Excommunication for pregnancy? Now THAT is really wild. It would've never even crossed my mind that excommunication was on the table for pregnancy. Makes no sense. The only difference between plain old s*x as a 'sin' & pregnancy is just failed or absent contraception. No one gets ex-commed for consentual intrcrse among 2 non-wed people. I dunno, maybe it's on the table if the person is endowed? I never did get endowed, so not sure. I'm shocked that he wanted to punish her with that. What a turd. Glad you convinced him otherwise.
@@randyjordan5521 thank you for taking a stand and talking sense into your bishop. Sadly the LDS church preaches forgiveness and free agency, but when we humans mess up it then becomes how can the leaders of the church crush and destroy you. Jesus was about love and forgiveness. Yes there is penalty for sin but thats for God to judge not man. I am glad I walked away from the Church.
It's amazing to see how some people have managed to get away with it. Since ancient times, there have been twisted minds who have done such ugly things in "god's name". Unfortunately most believers have been too brain-washed to the point where they don't want to open their eyes to the TRUTH.
Great content! I think you all mean "smoking gun" when you're saying "silver bullet". A silver bullet is a solution or a cure. Silver bullets kill vampires
When you go on a mission in a different country you give the mission president your passport and they keep it. So if you want to leave you have to talk to him first and many times they talk you into staying.
When missionaries are on a mission they must give up their passports, cell phones etc. The church then gives the missionary a phone with a chip in it to follow them where ever they go. If they are transferred, the phone gets a new chip. Calls and usage is limited. If you have mental issues you see only church paid councillors whose job is to get you back into the mission field… And so much more is becoming public.
Good information! But the problem of human trafficking was even more nefarious than described here. JS and BY et al sent missionaries to Scandinavian countries for the purpose of converting and bringing home wives. Many (probably most) of the women they married abroad were unaware that their new husbands already had a passel of wives at home. The perpetual immigration fund paid their way to Utah, where they learned of their status as 3rd or 12th wife. Their abject poverty and their friendless situation and their inability to speak English left them with nowhere to turn -- absolutely stuck. Might as well have been a cage. Heber C Kimball even raged over the pulpit in general conference "You missionaries keep marrying all the pretty ones and only bringing home the old cows for the rest of us!" I think that's the very definition of human trafficking and much more nefarious than secret philandering in Nauvoo, as bad as that was.
@@randyjordan5521 your quote was printed 100 years after his death. You can't know how many revisions or here-say i.e. gossip, it went through in that 100 years. 2 people can witness the same event and descibe it completely different based on their individual perspectives. Too many people take for 100% truth what in what most instances is just 200 year old gossip. It's what this channel (and the gullible) thrive on!
As a young primary child, i was taught by a very elderly woman, known to all as Nan Collins, who had been a child at the turn of the 20th century and told stories of seeing Mormon Missionaries in the streets. They still wore top hats and frock coats back then, and the young girls were called into the house when they were around and warned by their mothers that Mormon Missionaries were devils - their top hats hid their horns and their long coats hid their tails - and that they had a tunnel from Liverpool to Utah, and they would steel the girls and take them back to Salt Lake. They knew what was going on!!
And let's not forget the indigenous women JS instructed his followers to marry as plural wives in order to fulfill prophecy and turn them, through mixed-race offspring, white and delightsome.
I'm not sure if that's a polygamy issue or just something apologists use for polygamy because the early date helps them support that point. I've often wondered if that wasn't originally just about intermarriage, not necessarily polygamous intermarriage.
@@randyjordan5521 yes even now, indian children are taken as placement students, sent to college, becoming lawyers and such, used as political pull, stating that they are Elders of their tribes, for any purpose the church sees fit.
As a current member who was on the fence on Mormonism until watching this… there aren’t words for the emotions that I’m feeling… safe to say I’m no longer on the fence
@@randyjordan5521 sick sick sick… I cannot believe this is the representation of the church. Completely appalling. What’s even worse is I have a hunch that church leaders are aware of this. I mean they have to be right? To be ahead of all the chaos it’s going to bring about? I mean this is worse than just marrying teenage girls, but to marry them against their will? With no choice of theirs? There aren’t words to describe the disgust I feel
Why are you believing this? Just because they say it doesn't mean it's true. There are many lies, distortions, speculation and truth told out of context on this channel. Gullible listener beware ..
I'm so sorry! I know how awful that feeling can be. This was a real emotional gut punch for me too, and I've been out for decades. Know that you're not alone! Best wishes!!
I found one account in the journal of my 2nd great grandmother, where she tells about how she came from England at around 20yo and was sent down south to marry a “good man” who was over 70yo, and already had 6 wives. It seems like she was pretty cool with it all, but all I can think is that her inability to care for herself financially was being exploited.
My Great-Grandmother was the first wife. When the family next door lost the Father of the house in a farming accident, My Great-Grandfather "married" the widow and took responsibility for her children and farm. They had no children together. At that time my Great Grandfather was in his 40's. The two farms were combined into one. This was in the early 1800's and extremely rural. A horse and buggy would take a full day to get to the nearest city and back. They were all some of the original/early LDS. My ancestors didn't come from England, They came from Switzerland.
@@randyjordan5521 I didn’t know any of that until now. Glad it’s finally coming to light. It’s a common slavery tactic still in use today. A lot of Chinese immigrants are under the same type of servitude.
@@joankelley3772 yeah i wish the jonn delany spent more time/clarifications on not all polly/monogamous relationships ( just like some others monogamous marriage/open not all are a happy every after ending 😉 so to is polly and no it's not for everyone it's just a different experience/love language as im polly-orientated and have ben sense i was about 4yo-now but closeted between 10yo-25yo~ 1999~14~ BTW the faith/church isn't why im polly as actually my family/localy/logan it's and open gay-only lesbian/~BI*~/trans* shunned from 1800/og to now sad as it shouldn't be ) are bad some are even male-gay ( or lesbian or bi ) religious&or-totally-atheist triads marriage or open-relationship aka something not part of the LDS-church in anyway ect, and yes im not of there gay or swingers beliefs but that doesn't mean it's my right or another's to trample on there LGBTQ 🏳🌈or religious freedom's ect otherwise im for real-historical figures and facts being teachings , my ( also im a intersexual only mentioning that so there's some understanding of it's not all tocsick masculinity/predatory behaviour as im not for warren-jeffs-ect or nonconsenting relationships aka cheating ect ) bi sexual with females/wife's is was totally there idea 100% and there not religious/lds i im and at 1st wasn't having any of it as i was LGBTQ 🏳🌈 & religious phobias and also scared i would be excommunicated for being marriage/activity to either woman/lady both or just signally even if it's a heathy relationship-long-trem and heathy parenting ect , and honestly im a better person nowadays from it/polly ( evan my family and friends ect noticed aka i didn't cocourse/lead a opinion's ) but im not looking to having 4+wife's/SO as ( im happy 😊with just bi-wife's/2 ) i can't see how anyone could be present daily after X-amont of kids ( my max mentally&physically is 6 children but for now im not parenting ) or SO it's just way to hard, USA 🇺🇸 & uk 🇬🇧 law wise 5max marriage linked licenses is probably good enough to make 99% happy and also right enough to limit abuses in the system, and no jonn delany is incorrect on USA 🇺🇸 law pre-Edmond's-act/1840~ to 2000~ phobia-law's that's junky, and yes after lots of reading the LDS is pro polly/LGBTQ 🏳🌈it's what makes it different from the logan Utah UMC/Methodist-churches
my dad's grandmother 1860~ was a vary well educated Kentuckyin/tennasy/Texas and wealthy-premarriage ( aka by choice and not predatory reasons ) polyamory and insist on marrying to Samuel ( atheist child-less-RIP-little-girl-1835-40~ single-widoer at the time of marriage's to about his death in the 1920's~ and also a cowardly vs the government by trying to deforce+ghost both at the same time vs standing by both morally-ect ) and the 2d wife ( sorry for getting her name ) aka it was there ideas and both/3 of them were happy ( maybe she/they were closeted bi or lesbians?? but hard to tell as it's the later 1800's and not much support's/survives as evidenced ) with the marriage/relationship but she's not happy at all! about the USA 🇺🇸 federal government officials enforcement of anti LGBTQIA+ 🏳🌈and anti feminism redrick's, and yes it's a vary good chance that after womens suffrage/won-voting-power she and others ( anonymously something that is being left out, as if they didn't like it it would have been easier to vote no/change-politics ) voted to keep polygamy/polly as a okay practice aka in the women's voice 60%~ wanted it something jonn Delany left out and in 2018~ surprised me as i didn't know about that vote happening in the western USA 🇺🇸 states pre-1940's my mother's side had some that are similar storylines but LDS-practicing ( and on general less wealthy-$$/influenceale and from Sweden 🇸🇪 and scotch/uk 🇬🇧 and french ) and less cowardly/separated/jailed for believing/lifestyle unjustly i feel the sameway as them and sadly i didn't know marry-P or others inside and outside of my family intel i was about 25yo~ and would have been helpful to know her storyline as a teenager and getting a better sense it's okay to be different/queer
I wish someone would make a song consisting of the plethora of points of evidence that show all the ways in which Joseph Smith and his followers are part of her as church kind of like those songs they have in school to teach you about the capitals of all the states
The mob that killed Joseph's Myth were right. They were protecting their sisters, their mothers, their daughters and their wives. I just wish they hadn't stopped with Smith and had saved so many hundreds of other women from this horrifying nightmare.
Wow, this was one of the best episodes ever! Great job - JS, BY, & others were pure evil IMO. We were taught only lies about polygamy when I was a TBM. Never thought of it as human trafficking although I always hated polygamy. IT WAS HUMAN TRAFFICKING.
you might not like polygamous or open relationship's but it's not ok to trample on others love languages aka a atheist/or/religious lesbian-triad-marriage can be wholesome just as a monogamous religious/christen marriage can be toxic relationship mainly it's about adults informed consenting to a adult-relationships ( open or closed styles, im the marriage/committing-type, i know as iv tried monogamous-marriage and being single ect ) after that it's been them not the general public/governments or religion's opinion's , and law is obliged to do process 14th of marriage-licenses maximum of 5 as this allows most if not all living-styles and doesn't disremanate against religious rights or LGBTQIA+ other than maybe??? double-swinger marriaged couples/8~totally ( after that form a business nonprofit co op/something-else as it looks from the outside organisation structure more like a business/political-party than a personal/close daily intimacy but hay im not going to kinky shame, it's just needs a different way of enforced laws/ect as it's to big for regular marriage-licensing/family-law strategy's-law/public understanding ) but a line need to be drafted somewhere as to limit the system/corporate-board-room-loopholes tax dodging/abuse-of-powerful ect, but monogamous/hedosexule rights only isn't correct morally and lawfully as it's against bi sexual's ect and yes i know some bi's are happy with monogamous ( and or being closeted sexuality aka denying that they like Ie homosexuality ect ) but some definitely aren't! yes! polly is a orientation under say the USA 1964 civil rights act ect it's just not being entirely enforced correctly, as im one ☝of them/pollyamoury ( max for me is about 2SO's bisexule-orientation and 6 children aka im not power or sex-ect hungry, and probably land on being considered a ACE-minded spectrum by others than me ) and been that way from 4~yo-nowadays aka 1992~nowadays and nope nothing to do with the slc/mainline lds faith/family/logan ut as it's frowned upon or at least when i came out of the LGBTQ 🏳🌈 closet
"The social pressure" @2:06:32 mentioned reminded me of this quote: Phoebe Woodruff, first wife of Wilford Woodruff, was a defender of polygamy in public settings. However, she abhorred it privately. Consider the following account of Phoebe from “Mormon Polygamy: A History” by LDS author Richard S. Van Wagoner: “Phoebe Woodruff, first wife of Apostle Wilford Woodruff, also shared the ambivalent feelings of Mormon women in polygamy. She was asked to defend the principle in a mass meeting of Mormon women, a few days later in a conversation with a long-time friend she was asked, “How is it Sister Woodruff that you have changed your views so suddenly about polygamy? I thought you hated and loathed it… “I have not changed,” was her response: “I loathe the unclean thing with all the strength of my nature, but Sister, I have suffered all that a woman can endure. I am old and helpless, and would rather stand up anywhere, and say anything commanded of me, than to be turned out of my home in my old age which I should be most assuredly if I refused to obey counsel.”
At first i thought you were serious.... Yes Tim Ballard is a sex predator just like these followers. I would be ashamed to be LDS after this episode and well thank goodness for the internet so LDS people can research the conman/charlatan/racist/sexual predator JS was and end this religion. Something so rotten at its core shouldn't be around.
Interesting that this conversation is happening now, while back in England TBMs are going to watch the British Pageant that celebrates the whole missionary process of teaching working class industrial britains the 'restored gospel' and sailing them away from their families and culture, to Nauvoo - Its a very different version of the facts being laid out here!!
This Podcast is one of the most interesting and informative ones I have listened to. I would rate this one 220% compared to reading the boring/false -0% BOM..
33:33 what William Law did with the Nauvoo Expositor would be similar if Dallin H. Oaks or Henry B. Eyring exposed Russel M. Nelson in the SLC Trib today.
One of my favorite episodes I’ve listened to in a while, although painful to hear the abuse of power over these women. Such good work, Julia! Don’t forget to give this video a thumbs up to give it more exposure.
Missed the livestream, (so late to the party with the “Fantastic 4”,) but this is making me sick… I hate how much I just don’t know about church history even after I’ve left the church… 🤦🏻♀️
"I am not a woman only a stone." I grew up in the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) polygamist sect of mormonism and that quote decribes so many of the women around me as a child. Polygamy is not the "Plan of Happiness," its about suffering through this life until you die and get your reward in the afterlife. Thank you all for putting together an amazing show. It was a tough one to watch, having so many family members in polygamist marriages, knowing that sex trafficing is the foundation its built on.
I feel so frustrated and in anguish about all these young girls kids almost going through this disgusting practice. The suffering of women in these cults is evil. Thank you so much for making this program and I wish to God that the LDS membership opens their eyes and see things for what they are.
In any time, sexual intercourse needed to & has to be consensual! These young women who were lied to & left their homes in England or far away, had no choice once they were where they ended up! 😳😠
1:21:32 I’m really emotional as I heard that quote. Imagine being that women pulled into that room.. completely vulnerable.. they most likely were carrying guns. And how intimidating and terrifying that would be. It’s despicable.
Yes, and after describing something so terrifying, John Dehlin (who’s not paying attention to what’s being read and discussed) quips, “Love it!” then immediately moves on to thanking someone for donating. John does this a lot. Perhaps someone (Mavis?) could keep a list of contributors throughout the podcast and John could thank them at the end. It may help him to better concentrate on things being discussed by others and cut down on insensitive exclamations and/or asking questions which have just been discussed.
The mormon god's ways -- the mormon god is always going to tell pedophiles to be pedophiles, sex traffickers to be sex traffickers, and for cult followers it is righteous to be fleeced.
Man, this one was hard to watch. To imagine that something like this had been happening while I was a member of La Luz del Mundo (Light of the World) Church. Children were literally trafficked with bags of unreported money collected from US churches and trafficked to Mexico for the “apostle” to rape and sexually abuse them, record it for future use, and then when they became adults use them to scout and groom new victims. They called them “Unconditionals” because they were told to listen and do whatever the “apostle” told them to do and their salvation was put on the line so victims thought it was good. Sickening how often this history repeats itself.
In 1974 one of my missionaries, from whom my mother and I were taking discussions in Upstate NY, told my mother he received a revelation that he was to marry me.
Fantastic episode!! Julia's presentation was eye-opening and convincing, and she always does an excellent job with her research. Great panel. With so much lds interest in OUR and trafficking, isn't it ironic that they can't see it within their own back yard!?
In Gretna Green in Scotland the early weddings were conducted by the metalsmiths and they would strike the anvil at the end of the ceremony. So, maybe it refers to those collecting their wives to be struck over the anvil.
John hit the nail on the head. I've always been confused why we give JS a pass on polygamy when for YEARS TO COME, other prophets followed in HIS footsteps. Make it make sense
I know at least in the mid 2000s there were still unwed mother's houses in WA state where pregnant teens and young women would be sent to be "out of sight." I knew a girl on scholarship at BYU who got pregnant and was sent there. She came back w/out baby, transferred to the U and married a "good rm" within a couple of years. Her father is a prominent UT politician and church member. I never heard this story broke publicly but I was friends with her in highschool and one of my siblings continued to be good friends with her sibling and we saw pictures of her, of the home and of the other pregnant girls there. She made it sound like a very controlled religious environment meant for "reflection" and repentance. It's unclear if this is actually run by the church/LDS family services but it was definitely coordinated by members and known well enough. I heard that they made her cut contact with the babies father who was not devout/or missionary bound. I have heard that her baby was adopted from her sister and I have also heard from other mutual friends that it was the father's (jack mormon) family who adopted the baby. Not sure what is true.
Please do Not beat yourselves up. I was a member for 40+ yrs and knew none of this. I miss my Church family and would go back if the church could come clean and only teach from the Bible. Not the made up scriptures . You did nothing wrong .
Hello thank you for an interesting podcast Samantha said that an average Swedish immigrant woman who had immigrated to the mormons would have had a difficult time to leave and that is probably true. However as far as it known no mormon missionaries reached Sweden during Josephs Smith's lifetime. the first recorded Mormon that visited Sweden was in august 1850 when John E. Forsgren a swede from The city of Gavle visited his hometown.He had learn about mormonism in USA. In 1849 he was send to Sweden Forsgren preached and converted around a dozen people. Soon the Swedish authorities apprehended him and sent him to Stockholm and from there he was expelled from the country. Before 1859 it was illegal to preach or convert to any other religion than the Swedish Lutheran church. ( So early Mormon converts and other converts like baptists and methodists had to leave Sweden to avoid getting punished. The next missionaries came around 1853 and 1855 That mission was probably an offshoot of the Mormon mission to Denmark. But they resulted in 2 mormon congregations. Almost all of the converts had to immigrate to the USA. After 1859 it was legal to become a mormon in sweden. and the book of Mormon was translated to Swedish in 1878. Swedish Newspapers mentions 1843 and onwards the first mentions about polygamy is from 1850.The frst Scandinavian mormons was Norwegian immigrants living in Wisconsin and Illinois in the 1840thies. The LDS missions to Denmark started earlier than to Sweden so some of the earliest Swedish mormons came from Skane which borders to Denmark. An interesting fact is that a Swedish self styled Prophet named Eric Jansson immigrated to Illinois with between 1000-2000 of his followers in the period 1844-1850. he and his folowers founded their colony in Bishop Hill in Illinois.
At Sunstone uk last year a Sunstone history episode was recorded where Lindsay and Brian talked about how polygamist missionaries were teaching that it was a lie that polygamy was being practiced. This deceit persisted as I recall until about mid 1850's when somehow the cat was out of the bag and an announcement was made that polygamy was an official doctrine of the church. Not surprisingly convert baptisms rapidly declined.
I am 4th gen. mormon. I never believed all these things but I went along to get along. This helps justify all my feelings. I love this channel and I love the saying " people rescue themselves "
This is probably the most disgusting episode I have ever listened to of Mormon Stories. I just can't wrap my head around how myself and so many other people in this world were convinced that he was the utmost human being and a prophet of God. This almost made me sick to my stomach to listen to.
Excellent! Thank you @mormonstories! I just love it when you all are smiling and laughing and joking with each other. Warms my cold apostate heart. LOL
1:34:58 I’m also thinking of the inevitable hierarchy that would build between these women. How different would it be between being wife 1 and wife 54 ? How do you develop real fulfilling relationships with 50+ women ? These poor women have nowhere else to turn and I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to crave closeness and romance especially when that’s what you’ve been sold, and to realize you’re competing for his attention. If you’re not obedient and pretty and righteous and helpful, he’ll just turn to another wife or he’ll take on a new flavor of the month. You have to stay in his favor to keep access to the roof over your head,to the food on your table and to your children. I’m sure some of these women could form bonds between them but I wouldn’t blame them for being wary of other wives.
Why would Joseph force people like Heber C Kimball to participate in polygamy? It is similar to what we see in gangs and with child soldiers. If you can get people to cross certain boundaries, you know they will be complicit with you in other things and you increase loyalty to the group. Besides Heber had a daughter and if you can convince him that polygamy is good, then maybe you can marry his daughter later.
There’s a great article by Meg Stout in the millennial star: Striker - History of a definition I tried to include the link but RUclips doesn’t like it 😁
Speaking of cults' undue influence. Yesterday I had the unfortunate opportunity to watch a RUclips podcast documentary on Rich Thibault(?) and The Ant Hill Kids in Canada. I am a very seasoned true crime watcher. This is in the top two worst cases I've ever heard of. These members allowed their “God” Roch, to mutilate and cut off limbs on awake wives of his and much, much, much worse. That was the least shocking and horrific one I could mention almost. This seemed to be the best cult leader of all time in that I can't think of another who not only allowed to be brutalized and have horrific things done to them and their children and not think they could live without him and not want to leave. With the nature of the atrocities, I think even the Jonestown and Heaven’s Gate tragedies seem mild in that they died somewhat peacefully Or quick. They didn’t go through years of torture prior.
Every Emigrant signed a promissory note to pay $60.00 for "safe" passage to Utah. 10% annual interest accruing. The blood debt that some couldn't pay would mean they would live and die in servitude. Some of the young women that found husbands considered themselves 'lucky'. How terribly sad. Brigham Young is to Utah what Nathan Bedford Forrest is to Tennessee. When we start pulling down his many erections we will start making progress in the healing. @marginal mormon made this comment the other day on Zelphs instagram post. This just adds another layer
1:51:04 I don't know why that person claimed John had misspoken about teen and unmarried women being sent away until birth and then come back. Baby adopted out. I definitely think it still happens today. I was the baby in a teen pregnant mother. She was sent away and they didn't tell any of her 7 siblings. She stayed in a group home for pregnant women and when I was born I was put up for adoption through LDS Social Services which thank god doesn't exist anymore. The amount of reports of unethical practices, mine being one, made them realize they needed to bow out.
Yes and he is now in prison for having sex with a minor.. When polygamy was outlawed I the USA husbands sent their other wives to Canada and left them to their own devises.
Great episode. I like the point that Julia made that why would Joseph be recruiting other men into polygamy and they would be having sex with their polygamous wives and he would not. Believing mormons always arguing that we didn't have video cameras in the bedrooms and how do we really know if they were having sex. And like you said John, they also ask why do you have to make it all about sex. The evidence shows it was just about sex. Like Samantha said, it's not like these women were allowed to have any kind of actual marriage with Joseph. Everything was done in secret and he denied all of it. Thank you for all the great research Julia! You four made a great panel. Keep up the good work.
First I hate that I have to do the whole "let me first say" bit , but I am aware that I my opinion is just an opinion. And it's an opinion based on just beginning this journey into all things regarding Joseph Smith. I am also aware that this has probably been pointed out already, but could all of this come down to Joseph Smith, was not only a hell of a salesman and not a bad looking dude, but a man who really just got caught cheating on his wife, and he wanted to maybe find a way to keep up his love of side chicks by saying "no Emma, you don’t get it the Lord told me to do it. It's a cross that myself and all my boys must bare. ". I mean look at what he had got away with up until that point. It was working much better than he could’ve ever imagined. You don't think that maybe he thought to himself at some point "I’m going to roll with this, they listened to everything else I’ve said so far"
I don't remember the year, but it was in the mid to late 1800s, when my great, great, great uncle came over on the William Tapscott. Over 80% of the manifest said Bound for Utah as reason for emigration. Those numbers will clear a town.
I'm at a loss of how anybody could buy into the BS from Joey Smith... I know access to information during his time was limited but none of them smelled something off about his claims ...?🤨
You can reduce the marriages to sex in the cases of wives he only ever slept with her once. How else can you explain that? Also, so many of them were documented as unwilling participants. so it's not a far leap calling sex with an unwilling participant r@pe.
If there were plenty of men whose wives were married into polygamous marriages without their consent,, then how come we don't hear from these men??? They never said anything??
He does it because the lives of people who lived 170 years ago isnt relavant to what goes on today. He's passionate about righting a very evil practice that destroys the lives of these children. They are made to have sex with adults multiple times a day. For years. To compare that wth people that lived 170 years ago, married multiple women, creating families and raising children with them, is ludicrous.
@@surelyserious3166 yes they did. Not sure how you can argue that they didnt when the land deeds were issued on the days of the weddings. look into the church history and do your research! Biil Reel & RFM did a great podcast about it as part of their proving JS practiced polygamy.
The thing is that all atheist would say all Christian or other religious teachings are magic and lies. So who is going to say what is truth and what is lies.
Most mormons would be appalled at Warren Jeffs, but lets be honest, he's just following Joseph Smith's example.
I often think the FLDS is doing Mormonism right.
It's like when the mormon god has a message for the faithful, why is the message always delivered thru the cult leader, the sex trafficker or the pedophile??
FLDS is what the early Mormon Church looked like. The current Mormon church has modernized its values to make it acceptable to mainstream America.
I genuinely believe that if Joseph Smith were alive today he would 💯 approve of the flds religion and Warren
Woe unto you, [“LDS” RUclipsrs and practitioners of priestcraft], hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, [“LDS” RUclipsrs and practitioners of priestcraft], hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within [you] are full of extortion and excess.
Thou blind [“LDS” RUclipsr], cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, [“LDS” RUclipsrs and practitioners of priestcraft], hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Woe unto you, [“LDS” RUclipsrs and practitioners of priestcraft], hypocrites! Because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold,
[The Lord] send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your [comment sections], and persecute them from city to city and [video to video]: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would [the Lord] have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Jesus, Matthew 23; 11-38)
“[For] upon [the Lord’s] house shall it begin [destruction of the wicked], and from [His] house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you [Latter -day Saints], saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.” (Jesus, D&C 112: 25-26)
“O Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto [the Lord] with their mouth, and honoureth [the Lord] with their lips; but their heart is far from [Him]. But in vain they do worship [Him], teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Hear, and understand:
Then came [them which say unto me], Knowest thou that the [Saints] [are] offended, after they heard this saying? [To which I declare] every plant, which [our] heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Jesus, Mat
I feel like I have learned and understand about 10x more about church history after watching your videos for a couple weeks than I learned in 28 years of church membership.
I've been out for a very long time, and I thought I had learned a lot, but I had no idea about this history around exploitation of vulnerable women in England & Europe. It is absolutely sickening!!! This was a hard episode to watch, and I'm still teary eyed. It's so important to learn and know about this stuff. Thank you all for your hard work!!
Why are you believing this?? This channel only exists to destroy peoples faith and cause them to leave the church. John gets giddy over the thought of it. Sometimes his "concerned" mask drops and you can literally see it.
@@tamaraelsberry6630 I believe it simply because it's true, to the best of my discernment. If you have contrary evidence, I'm happy to see it. Please share it. As always, Mormon stories was thorough in providing an abundance of references, many from prominent publications of the time, and many coming from the churches own sources. I have no logical reason to question these sources.
It's easy to let emotion guide you over reason. Hell, it still happens to me all the time, I'll admit it. But, I don't share your assessment of John at all. To me he seems genuine and sincere. He admits when he presents incorrect information, is open about his intentions, doesn't claim to be perfect, speak for God, nor have all the answers. He openly shares his organization's finances and invites intellectual discourse, including dissenting opinions. The brethren in SLC have never offered any of this from my perspective. I have no trust in them at all.
Im sorry that you feel the way you do, and I sincerely wish the best for you, and hope you find peace with your beliefs. It didn't work out that way for me in the church, but everyone is different and unique, and has the right to follow their own journey. Best wishes!
I'm glad Nemo brought up A Study in Scarlet. I remember reading that when I was still TBM and being SO offended at that egregiously offensive and inaccurate portrayal of the early church in UT. I thought it was right and correct that there was an apology from the descendants of Conan Doyle published in the copy that I read. How little I knew. I've thought about that often as I've learned more and more about the early church. How a non-Mormon fiction writer in the mid-1800's to early 1900's knew more about the actual climate of early Mormonism than I, a lifetime member, did.
Yes! Thanks for having Julia on. Her content helped me so much when I left the church and I’m so happy that you’re giving her airtime
I was a pregnant teen with a family that is very involved in the church and when I was pregnant that was the only time my parents allowed me not to attend, and members stopped reaching out.
I just watch the Netflix series "How to be a cult leader" and its amazing how every step was followed by JS. The accounts of those coming to Nauvoo is so similar to those of Jonestown. And the giving of daughters really fits the exertion of control that is typically just seen monetarily
This and episode 1815 are the most disturbing episodes of MSP I have heard. Joseph Smith was an absolute monster……even for the time period. In America in mid 19th Century, the average ages for first time marriages were mid 20s. Marrying minors was NOT the norm. And sex trafficking was not the norm, either, let alone polygamy. The man was a giant narcissist, con-man and criminal. I regret being in the church for even the four years I was as a young adolescent back in the 80s. NOBODY told me the truth about the church’s history before or after I was baptized. And no wonder. The true history is absolutely revolting.
Maybe it’s time to stop referring JS’s words as ‘scripture’ 🤷🏼♀️
Good work guys. Thank you so much. More power to you all.❤
David Conley Nelson, Ph.D., author of Moroni and the Swatstika: Mormons in Nazi Germany might be a really interesting guest for your channel.
I’ve read a lot on Benjamin Franklin Johnson. I think there was something between Joseph and Benjamin that would put Joseph at risk for pushing him.
They were close and Joseph called him Bennie. So maybe he knew his limits already?
Also Benjamin’s mother was sealed to Joseph Smith Sr. But I cannot remember if it was after Sr. Death or not
Well done and eye-opening! Thanks
About 5 years ago a buddy and I were flying a small plane over southern Idaho. We had heard rumors that there was a big polygamist compound a few hrs drive to middle of nowhere. We found it and it was about as creepy looking as it gets. I will describe what I saw, there were two big mansions painted white with perfect lawns ect. The he whole place had a fence inside a fence surrounding it. Between the two houses were probably two dozen school busses with no tires or wheels visible kinda sunk into mud it looked like. We circled around it a bunch of times trying to piece together what we were looking at. It looked like to me that the women lived in the muddy nasty looking bus junkyard in the buses. You could see a few women around little campfires cooking. About half the buses had chains and padlocks on the doors obviously locking someone inside. It looked like the bus junkyard was surrounded by a fence with razor wire on top like a prison. The place gave off the worst vibes. We kept telling each other that don’t look right. WTF over and over. Anyways no Idea if they were Mormon but that area of Idaho is 98% Mormon except a few mexicans helping on the farm. So yeah that’s my story. I have felt guilty for not going and rescuing all the sex slaves but maybe they don’t want to be rescued. Maybe it wasn’t what it looked like and it was just my imagination. I doubt it. So sad
Wow! Did you inform the authorities?
You should report that to authorities! Especially if people are being held prisoner.
I refer anyone to the biography of Fanny Stenhouse-- Tell it All: The Story of a Life’s Experience in Mormonism. Please read
striker (n.)
late 14c., "vagabond," agent noun from strike (v.)
What is the archaic definition of striker?
(obsolete) An inexperienced member of a ship's crew. synonym ▲ Synonym: green hand.
(obsolete) A wencher; a lewd man.
(obsolete, politics) A blackmailer in politics.
(obsolete, politics) One whose political influence can be bought.
I mean until recently women couldnt have a bank account or property in their own name so they didn't have a lot of power/voice. Someone offers food/shelter/salvation and it wasn't that it was a good option, but rather that it was a means of meeting basic needs
You are 100% correct.
Can confirm church culture at least still sends unwed pregnant women away. My family member said if I'd have ever gotten pregnant we'd have had to move to another state (bc of the public shame). And that it would've been better had I not been born. Guess we really lucked out! *eyeroll* And I was out of high school even. In college.
My best friend in highschool with about 8 other girls were sent to fruit heights school for mothers at 16 from Wy. And all forced to give up children. They just disappeared and came back like nothing happened to them. It traumatized me...
@@rachaelm6406 That's awful!! Those poor girls.
Back in the nineties we had a teen girl who was pregnant start attending our word. She stayed with a family. At church she was sheltered from the other teens. Basically she stayed with the host family 24/7. Come to find out, her Dad was very high up in the church. She was from Utah and they literally sent her over 2,000 miles away. Her name was a given name she used so no one knew her real name. She was forced to have the child with the host family. Her family never came to visit. Once the child was born, it was immediately adopted through the church agency. She had no choice. Then after the birth she went back home as if nothing happened and she was gone for reasons to better her education. As a teen myself I thought how horrible. How could any parent do that to there child and grandchild. I already at that point knew the church was a fraud, but at that time I was stuck. Glad I am free.
@randyjordan5521 Excommunication for pregnancy? Now THAT is really wild. It would've never even crossed my mind that excommunication was on the table for pregnancy. Makes no sense. The only difference between plain old s*x as a 'sin' & pregnancy is just failed or absent contraception. No one gets ex-commed for consentual intrcrse among 2 non-wed people. I dunno, maybe it's on the table if the person is endowed? I never did get endowed, so not sure. I'm shocked that he wanted to punish her with that. What a turd. Glad you convinced him otherwise.
@@randyjordan5521 thank you for taking a stand and talking sense into your bishop. Sadly the LDS church preaches forgiveness and free agency, but when we humans mess up it then becomes how can the leaders of the church crush and destroy you. Jesus was about love and forgiveness. Yes there is penalty for sin but thats for God to judge not man. I am glad I walked away from the Church.
Didn’t the Royalties in different countries use women as peace treaties, or booties?
It's amazing to see how some people have managed to get away with it. Since ancient times, there have been twisted minds who have done such ugly things in "god's name". Unfortunately most believers have been too brain-washed to the point where they don't want to open their eyes to the TRUTH.
Great content! I think you all mean "smoking gun" when you're saying "silver bullet". A silver bullet is a solution or a cure. Silver bullets kill vampires
Could be the silver bullet to put any doubt about whatever topic in the ground! But yeah. ;)
I thought a steak through the heart killed vampires?
Silver bullet might be werewolf? Both? Idk lol
@@randyjordan5521 wash’s that lead?
Okay WTF? What were you trying to say about missionaries and trafficking.?.
Something about passports?
When you go on a mission in a different country you give the mission president your passport and they keep it. So if you want to leave you have to talk to him first and many times they talk you into staying.
When missionaries are on a mission they must give up their passports, cell phones etc. The church then gives the missionary a phone with a chip in it to follow them where ever they go. If they are transferred, the phone gets a new chip. Calls and usage is limited. If you have mental issues you see only church paid councillors whose job is to get you back into the mission field… And so much more is becoming public.
Eye opening.
Good information! But the problem of human trafficking was even more nefarious than described here. JS and BY et al sent missionaries to Scandinavian countries for the purpose of converting and bringing home wives. Many (probably most) of the women they married abroad were unaware that their new husbands already had a passel of wives at home. The perpetual immigration fund paid their way to Utah, where they learned of their status as 3rd or 12th wife. Their abject poverty and their friendless situation and their inability to speak English left them with nowhere to turn -- absolutely stuck. Might as well have been a cage. Heber C Kimball even raged over the pulpit in general conference "You missionaries keep marrying all the pretty ones and only bringing home the old cows for the rest of us!" I think that's the very definition of human trafficking and much more nefarious than secret philandering in Nauvoo, as bad as that was.
@orisonorchards4251 - Sounds like we need you as a guest on Mormon Stories podcast pronto!
mormonstories@gmail.com
Dang...Do you have a reference for the Heber Kimball reference? So evil.
@@randyjordan5521 thank you. I'm still on it. :)
Nonsense! Lol! Of course he never said that. What lies the gullible will believe..
@@randyjordan5521 your quote was printed 100 years after his death. You can't know how many revisions or here-say i.e. gossip, it went through in that 100 years.
2 people can witness the same event and descibe it completely different based on their individual perspectives.
Too many people take for 100% truth what in what most instances is just 200 year old gossip. It's what this channel (and the gullible) thrive on!
As a young primary child, i was taught by a very elderly woman, known to all as Nan Collins, who had been a child at the turn of the 20th century and told stories of seeing Mormon Missionaries in the streets. They still wore top hats and frock coats back then, and the young girls were called into the house when they were around and warned by their mothers that Mormon Missionaries were devils - their top hats hid their horns and their long coats hid their tails - and that they had a tunnel from Liverpool to Utah, and they would steel the girls and take them back to Salt Lake. They knew what was going on!!
My grandmother from Wales had a story about Mormon missionaries.
And let's not forget the indigenous women JS instructed his followers to marry as plural wives in order to fulfill prophecy and turn them, through mixed-race offspring, white and delightsome.
I'm not sure if that's a polygamy issue or just something apologists use for polygamy because the early date helps them support that point. I've often wondered if that wasn't originally just about intermarriage, not necessarily polygamous intermarriage.
@@randyjordan5521 yes even now, indian children are taken as placement students, sent to college, becoming lawyers and such, used as political pull, stating that they are Elders of their tribes, for any purpose the church sees fit.
As a current member who was on the fence on Mormonism until watching this… there aren’t words for the emotions that I’m feeling… safe to say I’m no longer on the fence
@@randyjordan5521 sick sick sick… I cannot believe this is the representation of the church. Completely appalling. What’s even worse is I have a hunch that church leaders are aware of this. I mean they have to be right? To be ahead of all the chaos it’s going to bring about? I mean this is worse than just marrying teenage girls, but to marry them against their will? With no choice of theirs? There aren’t words to describe the disgust I feel
Why are you believing this? Just because they say it doesn't mean it's true. There are many lies, distortions, speculation and truth told out of context on this channel. Gullible listener beware ..
I'm so sorry! I know how awful that feeling can be. This was a real emotional gut punch for me too, and I've been out for decades. Know that you're not alone! Best wishes!!
Hang in there!
@@trevanon7450get out while you can. It’s a mafia organization. I’m out too.
I found one account in the journal of my 2nd great grandmother, where she tells about how she came from England at around 20yo and was sent down south to marry a “good man” who was over 70yo, and already had 6 wives. It seems like she was pretty cool with it all, but all I can think is that her inability to care for herself financially was being exploited.
My Great-Grandmother was the first wife. When the family next door lost the Father of the house in a farming accident, My Great-Grandfather "married" the widow and took responsibility for her children and farm. They had no children together. At that time my Great Grandfather was in his 40's. The two farms were combined into one. This was in the early 1800's and extremely rural. A horse and buggy would take a full day to get to the nearest city and back. They were all some of the original/early LDS. My ancestors didn't come from England, They came from Switzerland.
@@randyjordan5521 I didn’t know any of that until now. Glad it’s finally coming to light. It’s a common slavery tactic still in use today. A lot of Chinese immigrants are under the same type of servitude.
@@joankelley3772 yeah i wish the jonn delany spent more time/clarifications on not all polly/monogamous relationships ( just like some others monogamous marriage/open not all are a happy every after ending 😉 so to is polly and no it's not for everyone it's just a different experience/love language as im polly-orientated and have ben sense i was about 4yo-now but closeted between 10yo-25yo~ 1999~14~ BTW the faith/church isn't why im polly as actually my family/localy/logan it's and open gay-only lesbian/~BI*~/trans* shunned from 1800/og to now sad as it shouldn't be ) are bad some are even male-gay ( or lesbian or bi ) religious&or-totally-atheist triads marriage or open-relationship aka something not part of the LDS-church in anyway ect, and yes im not of there gay or swingers beliefs but that doesn't mean it's my right or another's to trample on there LGBTQ 🏳🌈or religious freedom's ect
otherwise im for real-historical figures and facts being teachings ,
my ( also im a intersexual only mentioning that so there's some understanding of it's not all tocsick masculinity/predatory behaviour as im not for warren-jeffs-ect or nonconsenting relationships aka cheating ect ) bi sexual with females/wife's is was totally there idea 100% and there not religious/lds i im and at 1st wasn't having any of it as i was LGBTQ 🏳🌈 & religious phobias and also scared i would be excommunicated for being marriage/activity to either woman/lady both or just signally even if it's a heathy relationship-long-trem and heathy parenting ect , and honestly im a better person nowadays from it/polly ( evan my family and friends ect noticed aka i didn't cocourse/lead a opinion's ) but im not looking to having 4+wife's/SO as ( im happy 😊with just bi-wife's/2 ) i can't see how anyone could be present daily after X-amont of kids ( my max mentally&physically is 6 children but for now im not parenting ) or SO it's just way to hard, USA 🇺🇸 & uk 🇬🇧 law wise 5max marriage linked licenses is probably good enough to make 99% happy and also right enough to limit abuses in the system, and no jonn delany is incorrect on USA 🇺🇸 law pre-Edmond's-act/1840~ to 2000~ phobia-law's that's junky, and yes after lots of reading the LDS is pro polly/LGBTQ 🏳🌈it's what makes it different from the logan Utah UMC/Methodist-churches
my dad's grandmother 1860~ was a vary well educated Kentuckyin/tennasy/Texas and wealthy-premarriage ( aka by choice and not predatory reasons ) polyamory and insist on marrying to Samuel ( atheist child-less-RIP-little-girl-1835-40~ single-widoer at the time of marriage's to about his death in the 1920's~ and also a cowardly vs the government by trying to deforce+ghost both at the same time vs standing by both morally-ect ) and the 2d wife ( sorry for getting her name ) aka it was there ideas and both/3 of them were happy ( maybe she/they were closeted bi or lesbians?? but hard to tell as it's the later 1800's and not much support's/survives as evidenced ) with the marriage/relationship but she's not happy at all! about the USA 🇺🇸 federal government officials enforcement of anti LGBTQIA+ 🏳🌈and anti feminism redrick's, and yes it's a vary good chance that after womens suffrage/won-voting-power she and others ( anonymously something that is being left out, as if they didn't like it it would have been easier to vote no/change-politics ) voted to keep polygamy/polly as a okay practice aka in the women's voice 60%~ wanted it something jonn Delany left out and in 2018~ surprised me as i didn't know about that vote happening in the western USA 🇺🇸 states pre-1940's
my mother's side had some that are similar storylines but LDS-practicing ( and on general less wealthy-$$/influenceale and from Sweden 🇸🇪 and scotch/uk 🇬🇧 and french ) and less cowardly/separated/jailed for believing/lifestyle unjustly
i feel the sameway as them and sadly i didn't know marry-P or others inside and outside of my family intel i was about 25yo~ and would have been helpful to know her storyline as a teenager and getting a better sense it's okay to be different/queer
I wish someone would make a song consisting of the plethora of points of evidence that show all the ways in which Joseph Smith and his followers are part of her as church kind of like those songs they have in school to teach you about the capitals of all the states
The mob that killed Joseph's Myth were right. They were protecting their sisters, their mothers, their daughters and their wives. I just wish they hadn't stopped with Smith and had saved so many hundreds of other women from this horrifying nightmare.
Wow, this was one of the best episodes ever! Great job - JS, BY, & others were pure evil IMO. We were taught only lies about polygamy when I was a TBM. Never thought of it as human trafficking although I always hated polygamy. IT WAS HUMAN TRAFFICKING.
you might not like polygamous or open relationship's but it's not ok to trample on others love languages aka a atheist/or/religious lesbian-triad-marriage can be wholesome just as a monogamous religious/christen marriage can be toxic relationship
mainly it's about adults informed consenting to a adult-relationships ( open or closed styles, im the marriage/committing-type, i know as iv tried monogamous-marriage and being single ect ) after that it's been them not the general public/governments or religion's opinion's , and law is obliged to do process 14th of marriage-licenses maximum of 5 as this allows most if not all living-styles and doesn't disremanate against religious rights or LGBTQIA+ other than maybe??? double-swinger marriaged couples/8~totally ( after that form a business nonprofit co op/something-else as it looks from the outside organisation structure more like a business/political-party than a personal/close daily intimacy but hay im not going to kinky shame, it's just needs a different way of enforced laws/ect as it's to big for regular marriage-licensing/family-law strategy's-law/public understanding ) but a line need to be drafted somewhere as to limit the system/corporate-board-room-loopholes tax dodging/abuse-of-powerful ect, but monogamous/hedosexule rights only isn't correct morally and lawfully as it's against bi sexual's ect and yes i know some bi's are happy with monogamous ( and or being closeted sexuality aka denying that they like Ie homosexuality ect ) but some definitely aren't!
yes! polly is a orientation under say the USA 1964 civil rights act ect it's just not being entirely enforced correctly, as im one ☝of them/pollyamoury ( max for me is about 2SO's bisexule-orientation and 6 children aka im not power or sex-ect hungry, and probably land on being considered a ACE-minded spectrum by others than me ) and been that way from 4~yo-nowadays aka 1992~nowadays and nope nothing to do with the slc/mainline lds faith/family/logan ut as it's frowned upon or at least when i came out of the LGBTQ 🏳🌈 closet
"The social pressure" @2:06:32 mentioned reminded me of this quote: Phoebe Woodruff, first wife of Wilford Woodruff, was a defender of polygamy in public settings. However, she abhorred it privately. Consider the following account of Phoebe from “Mormon Polygamy: A History” by LDS author Richard S. Van Wagoner:
“Phoebe Woodruff, first wife of Apostle Wilford Woodruff, also shared the ambivalent feelings of Mormon women in polygamy. She was asked to defend the principle in a mass meeting of Mormon women, a few days later in a conversation with a long-time friend she was asked, “How is it Sister Woodruff that you have changed your views so suddenly about polygamy? I thought you hated and loathed it… “I have not changed,” was her response: “I loathe the unclean thing with all the strength of my nature, but Sister, I have suffered all that a woman can endure. I am old and helpless, and would rather stand up anywhere, and say anything commanded of me, than to be turned out of my home in my old age which I should be most assuredly if I refused to obey counsel.”
Thanks for this comment, that was a harrowing quote
I just keep getting more and more confirmation that leaving the church was a great move.
Tim Ballard needs a time machine so he can go back and save all the children from Joseph Smith and Breed'em Young.
Tim Ballard is LDS like myself.
@curtisdecker3175 it was a joke. Irony, my friend.
@@tewtravelers9586 not really irony because trafficking didn't happen.
At first i thought you were serious.... Yes Tim Ballard is a sex predator just like these followers. I would be ashamed to be LDS after this episode and well thank goodness for the internet so LDS people can research the conman/charlatan/racist/sexual predator JS was and end this religion. Something so rotten at its core shouldn't be around.
@@curtisdecker3175someone's in denial 😅
Interesting that this conversation is happening now, while back in England TBMs are going to watch the British Pageant that celebrates the whole missionary process of teaching working class industrial britains the 'restored gospel' and sailing them away from their families and culture, to Nauvoo - Its a very different version of the facts being laid out here!!
This Podcast is one of the most interesting and informative ones I have listened to. I would rate this one 220% compared to reading the boring/false -0% BOM..
33:33 what William Law did with the Nauvoo Expositor would be similar if Dallin H. Oaks or Henry B. Eyring exposed Russel M. Nelson in the SLC Trib today.
41:00 BOOM!
One of my favorite episodes I’ve listened to in a while, although painful to hear the abuse of power over these women. Such good work, Julia! Don’t forget to give this video a thumbs up to give it more exposure.
Missed the livestream, (so late to the party with the “Fantastic 4”,) but this is making me sick… I hate how much I just don’t know about church history even after I’ve left the church… 🤦🏻♀️
Great episode. Also loved the comic relief provided by Nemo's and Sam's commentaries 😂 thank you
"I am not a woman only a stone." I grew up in the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) polygamist sect of mormonism and that quote decribes so many of the women around me as a child. Polygamy is not the "Plan of Happiness," its about suffering through this life until you die and get your reward in the afterlife.
Thank you all for putting together an amazing show. It was a tough one to watch, having so many family members in polygamist marriages, knowing that sex trafficing is the foundation its built on.
I'm so sorry that you had to endure an upbringing like that! I can only imagine...
Heartbreaking. So evil. So sorry.
Great group to discuss this. Nothing but good things to say about all.
Yes he was, But Bringham Young was needed to turn the sex trafficking trade into a metropolis.
I feel so frustrated and in anguish about all these young girls kids almost going through this disgusting practice. The suffering of women in these cults is evil. Thank you so much for making this program and I wish to God that the LDS membership opens their eyes and see things for what they are.
I so love this informed- intelligent and brave panel!
In any time, sexual intercourse needed to & has to be consensual! These young women who were lied to & left their homes in England or far away, had no choice once they were where they ended up! 😳😠
This history so angers me I must step away from watching and come back later. JS was a monster.
😖🤢🤮💔This is soooo heart breaking. Thx team for bringing to light the disgusting things hidden in the dark.
1:21:32 I’m really emotional as I heard that quote. Imagine being that women pulled into that room.. completely vulnerable.. they most likely were carrying guns. And how intimidating and terrifying that would be. It’s despicable.
Yes, and after describing something so terrifying, John Dehlin (who’s not paying attention to what’s being read and discussed) quips, “Love it!” then immediately moves on to thanking someone for donating. John does this a lot. Perhaps someone (Mavis?) could keep a list of contributors throughout the podcast and John could thank them at the end. It may help him to better concentrate on things being discussed by others and cut down on insensitive exclamations and/or asking questions which have just been discussed.
These programs are so awesome!!! 👍👍 Thank you!!
Glad you like them!
The mormon god's ways -- the mormon god is always going to tell pedophiles to be pedophiles, sex traffickers to be sex traffickers, and for cult followers it is righteous to be fleeced.
This program is BRILLIANT..Thanks All! Utterly shocking for those of us that have an ancestral base within these groups!GOOD ON YOU!
Man, this one was hard to watch. To imagine that something like this had been happening while I was a member of La Luz del Mundo (Light of the World) Church. Children were literally trafficked with bags of unreported money collected from US churches and trafficked to Mexico for the “apostle” to rape and sexually abuse them, record it for future use, and then when they became adults use them to scout and groom new victims. They called them “Unconditionals” because they were told to listen and do whatever the “apostle” told them to do and their salvation was put on the line so victims thought it was good. Sickening how often this history repeats itself.
Whoaaaah. :[ So sad!!
We would love to interview you @UnitarianBodyBuilder.
mormonstories@gmail.com
@@mormonstories Thanks for the reply. Sent you guys an email (subject: Ex-La Luz del Mundo).
A striker is what in this day and age we would call a pimp.
In 1974 one of my missionaries, from whom my mother and I were taking discussions in Upstate NY, told my mother he received a revelation that he was to marry me.
Fantastic episode!! Julia's presentation was eye-opening and convincing, and she always does an excellent job with her research. Great panel. With so much lds interest in OUR and trafficking, isn't it ironic that they can't see it within their own back yard!?
Bias, plus admitting to and owning the factual church history would have massive consequences for them
So basically Joseph Smith was the Andrew Tate of the 1800’s
In Gretna Green in Scotland the early weddings were conducted by the metalsmiths and they would strike the anvil at the end of the ceremony. So, maybe it refers to those collecting their wives to be struck over the anvil.
John hit the nail on the head. I've always been confused why we give JS a pass on polygamy when for YEARS TO COME, other prophets followed in HIS footsteps. Make it make sense
I know at least in the mid 2000s there were still unwed mother's houses in WA state where pregnant teens and young women would be sent to be "out of sight." I knew a girl on scholarship at BYU who got pregnant and was sent there. She came back w/out baby, transferred to the U and married a "good rm" within a couple of years. Her father is a prominent UT politician and church member. I never heard this story broke publicly but I was friends with her in highschool and one of my siblings continued to be good friends with her sibling and we saw pictures of her, of the home and of the other pregnant girls there. She made it sound like a very controlled religious environment meant for "reflection" and repentance. It's unclear if this is actually run by the church/LDS family services but it was definitely coordinated by members and known well enough. I heard that they made her cut contact with the babies father who was not devout/or missionary bound. I have heard that her baby was adopted from her sister and I have also heard from other mutual friends that it was the father's (jack mormon) family who adopted the baby. Not sure what is true.
I could not finish watching or listening to this. I'm feeling nothing but disgust and anger. I tots seminary for 10 years I feel like such a fool😢.
Please do Not beat yourselves up. I was a member for 40+ yrs and knew none of this. I miss my Church family and would go back if the church could come clean and only teach from the Bible. Not the made up scriptures . You did nothing wrong .
Hello
thank you for an interesting podcast Samantha said that an average Swedish immigrant woman who had immigrated to the mormons would have had a difficult time to leave and that is probably true. However as far as it known no mormon missionaries reached Sweden during Josephs Smith's lifetime.
the first recorded Mormon that visited Sweden was in august 1850 when John E. Forsgren a swede from The city of Gavle visited his hometown.He had learn about mormonism in USA. In 1849 he was send to Sweden Forsgren preached and converted around a dozen people. Soon the Swedish authorities apprehended him and sent him to Stockholm and from there he was expelled from the country. Before 1859 it was illegal to preach or convert to any other religion than the Swedish Lutheran church.
( So early Mormon converts and other converts like baptists and methodists had to leave Sweden to avoid getting punished.
The next missionaries came around 1853 and 1855 That mission was probably an offshoot of the Mormon mission to Denmark. But they resulted in 2 mormon congregations. Almost all of the converts had to immigrate to the USA.
After 1859 it was legal to become a mormon in sweden. and the book of Mormon was translated to Swedish in 1878.
Swedish Newspapers mentions 1843 and onwards the first mentions about polygamy is from 1850.The frst Scandinavian mormons was Norwegian immigrants living in Wisconsin and Illinois in the 1840thies. The LDS missions to Denmark started earlier than to Sweden so some of the earliest Swedish mormons came from Skane which borders to Denmark.
An interesting fact is that a Swedish self styled Prophet named Eric Jansson immigrated to Illinois with between 1000-2000 of his followers in the period 1844-1850. he and his folowers founded their colony in Bishop Hill in Illinois.
First, I never knew any of this. If I had I would’ve resigned. Second, they’re STILL trafficking women
Is it true about Emma and Joesph , had arguments and banned smoking , drinking , coffee, and tea ?
There were at least 2 women who divorced Brigham Young.
At Sunstone uk last year a Sunstone history episode was recorded where Lindsay and Brian talked about how polygamist missionaries were teaching that it was a lie that polygamy was being practiced.
This deceit persisted as I recall until about mid 1850's when somehow the cat was out of the bag and an announcement was made that polygamy was an official doctrine of the church.
Not surprisingly convert baptisms rapidly declined.
Love the conversation about it being illegal to say you speak for God!
LDS missionaries tell me that Polygamy was not a sin because of King David/King Salomon. But in the Bible The Lord never commanded it.
I am 4th gen. mormon. I never believed all these things but I went along to get along. This helps justify all my feelings. I love this channel and I love the saying " people rescue themselves "
This is probably the most disgusting episode I have ever listened to of Mormon Stories. I just can't wrap my head around how myself and so many other people in this world were convinced that he was the utmost human being and a prophet of God. This almost made me sick to my stomach to listen to.
If the church wants to increase number of missionaries they just need to let them pick a wife when on mission. Old ideas made new. Lol
I do believe some saints came through California. Probably San Francisco.
Excellent! Thank you @mormonstories! I just love it when you all are smiling and laughing and joking with each other. Warms my cold apostate heart. LOL
1:34:58 I’m also thinking of the inevitable hierarchy that would build between these women. How different would it be between being wife 1 and wife 54 ? How do you develop real fulfilling relationships with 50+ women ? These poor women have nowhere else to turn and I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to crave closeness and romance especially when that’s what you’ve been sold, and to realize you’re competing for his attention. If you’re not obedient and pretty and righteous and helpful, he’ll just turn to another wife or he’ll take on a new flavor of the month. You have to stay in his favor to keep access to the roof over your head,to the food on your table and to your children. I’m sure some of these women could form bonds between them but I wouldn’t blame them for being wary of other wives.
Why would Joseph force people like Heber C Kimball to participate in polygamy? It is similar to what we see in gangs and with child soldiers. If you can get people to cross certain boundaries, you know they will be complicit with you in other things and you increase loyalty to the group. Besides Heber had a daughter and if you can convince him that polygamy is good, then maybe you can marry his daughter later.
Epic Episode 🎉
There’s a great article by Meg Stout in the millennial star: Striker - History of a definition
I tried to include the link but RUclips doesn’t like it 😁
Speaking of cults' undue influence. Yesterday I had the unfortunate opportunity to watch a RUclips podcast documentary on Rich Thibault(?) and The Ant Hill Kids in Canada. I am a very seasoned true crime watcher. This is in the top two worst cases I've ever heard of. These members allowed their “God” Roch, to mutilate and cut off limbs on awake wives of his and much, much, much worse. That was the least shocking and horrific one I could mention almost. This seemed to be the best cult leader of all time in that I can't think of another who not only allowed to be brutalized and have horrific things done to them and their children and not think they could live without him and not want to leave. With the nature of the atrocities, I think even the Jonestown and Heaven’s Gate tragedies seem mild in that they died somewhat peacefully Or quick. They didn’t go through years of torture prior.
Every Emigrant signed a promissory note to pay $60.00 for "safe" passage to Utah. 10% annual interest accruing. The blood debt that some couldn't pay would mean they would live and die in servitude. Some of the young women that found husbands considered themselves 'lucky'. How terribly sad. Brigham Young is to Utah what Nathan Bedford Forrest is to Tennessee. When we start pulling down his many erections we will start making progress in the healing. @marginal mormon made this comment the other day on Zelphs instagram post. This just adds another layer
1:51:04 I don't know why that person claimed John had misspoken about teen and unmarried women being sent away until birth and then come back. Baby adopted out. I definitely think it still happens today. I was the baby in a teen pregnant mother. She was sent away and they didn't tell any of her 7 siblings. She stayed in a group home for pregnant women and when I was born I was put up for adoption through LDS Social Services which thank god doesn't exist anymore. The amount of reports of unethical practices, mine being one, made them realize they needed to bow out.
I saw a documentary on polygamy years ago. I believe it was about that guy in canada. His first wife looked so sad and beaten down like a robot.
Yes and he is now in prison for having sex with a minor.. When polygamy was outlawed I the USA husbands sent their other wives to Canada and left them to their own devises.
Great episode. I like the point that Julia made that why would Joseph be recruiting other men into polygamy and they would be having sex with their polygamous wives and he would not. Believing mormons always arguing that we didn't have video cameras in the bedrooms and how do we really know if they were having sex. And like you said John, they also ask why do you have to make it all about sex. The evidence shows it was just about sex. Like Samantha said, it's not like these women were allowed to have any kind of actual marriage with Joseph. Everything was done in secret and he denied all of it. Thank you for all the great research Julia! You four made a great panel. Keep up the good work.
Wow!!!! I do believe my great- aunt is on the list of Joseph Smiths wife. I have so many questions about my family history in the Mormon church.
First I hate that I have to do the whole "let me first say" bit , but I am aware that I my opinion is just an opinion. And it's an opinion based on just beginning this journey into all things regarding Joseph Smith. I am also aware that this has probably been pointed out already, but could all of this come down to Joseph Smith, was not only a hell of a salesman and not a bad looking dude, but a man who really just got caught cheating on his wife, and he wanted to maybe find a way to keep up his love of side chicks by saying "no Emma, you don’t get it the Lord told me to do it. It's a cross that myself and all my boys must bare. ". I mean look at what he had got away with up until that point. It was working much better than he could’ve ever imagined. You don't think that maybe he thought to himself at some point "I’m going to roll with this, they listened to everything else I’ve said so far"
I don't remember the year, but it was in the mid to late 1800s, when my great, great, great uncle came over on the William Tapscott. Over 80% of the manifest said Bound for Utah as reason for emigration. Those numbers will clear a town.
I'm at a loss of how anybody could buy into the BS from Joey Smith... I know access to information during his time was limited but none of them smelled something off about his claims ...?🤨
You can reduce the marriages to sex in the cases of wives he only ever slept with her once. How else can you explain that? Also, so many of them were documented as unwilling participants. so it's not a far leap calling sex with an unwilling participant r@pe.
If there were plenty of men whose wives were married into polygamous marriages without their consent,, then how come we don't hear from these men??? They never said anything??
Strikers? There is a play by British playwright Caryl Churchill and she titles the play: The Skriker: underworld, otherworld, creatures?
Lucy saw thru it, to bad she didn’t take the 116 pages Joseph was looking for , to Emma father and newspaper?
Wow, I am so ignorant about British Mormon history. Just wow, enlightened! ❤
Who keeps deleting my comments? I have a 1st amendment right to contribute to the conversation. Stop violating my rights!
I don’t understand how Tim Ballard can remain a Mormon considering church history. I really wish he would come on Mormon Stories for an interview. 🤞🏻
Because Ballard is a proven fraud and is using Mormons to make millions of dollars and aim for a career in politics?
He does it because the lives of people who lived 170 years ago isnt relavant to what goes on today. He's passionate about righting a very evil practice that destroys the lives of these children. They are made to have sex with adults multiple times a day. For years.
To compare that wth people that lived 170 years ago, married multiple women, creating families and raising children with them, is ludicrous.
@Nemo there WERE saints who I came around South America! Not many, but it did happen
I knew it was bad but I had no idea it was this bad! Glad I am out.
Remind me..are sometimes "widows" referred to also the wives of active missionaries overseas? I thought John said that before
Dont forget a lot of these women received lot of land by deeds IF they married him
@@surelyserious3166 yes they did. Not sure how you can argue that they didnt when the land deeds were issued on the days of the weddings. look into the church history and do your research! Biil Reel & RFM did a great podcast about it as part of their proving JS practiced polygamy.
This was a great panel! A favorite!
A great read would be prisons of the mind . Written by Kaziah may Hancock
The thing is that all atheist would say all Christian or other religious teachings are magic and lies. So who is going to say what is truth and what is lies.
And in a strange twist, did you know that OUR (Operation Underground Railroad) is founded and run by a Mormon?