The young actress that played Claire, is famous these days, this was her brake through role, well, not break through, but from where she was noticed from and hired on to play bigger roles. She been in pretty big movies.
I don't know if you know this, but there was a season of Supernatural:The animation. It is an anime that had some original stories and some of the better ones from S1 and 2. Jared (Sam) did his own voice the entire season.
Dean has been desperately trying to convince himself that he can control the Mark. This failure to do so is devastating. I felt sick when that creep went after Claire too. I'm so glad that Supernatural brought Claire back into the story. Jimmy would be so proud of her strength.
I like how the writers finally address when Castiel possessed Jimmy he took a father away from his daughter - I know he agreed to it but it is still pretty messed up when you think about it.
Agreed its one of the forgotten plot points from the earlier seasons I'm glad they brought back. Would've liked them to bring back the Anti-Christ Jessie or those Amazons but hey bringing back works so I'm happy for that at least
My favorite part of this episode is the story Dean and Sam share about John tracking down Dean as a teenager. "You don't like me? That's fine. It's not my job to be liked. It's my job to raise you right."
I feel like Claire was the Cole storyline done right. That storyline being someone from one of the brothers past case comes back jaded and angry at them even though it wasn't their fault. There are two reasons it works with Claire and not Cole. First it helps that we actually saw what happened to her on the show and not a pre-series flashback, it makes us connect with her more. And second the big problem I had with Cole was his cocky attitude, Claire had an attitude to but she's a teenager and given her trauma its understandable. Yeah Cole had his trauma to but given aside from his dad dying we don't know much about his childhood, if was raised by his mom or the foster system, plus he has a wife and kid so his wasn't all bad when compared to Claire
This is why I love the Mark of Cain arc! It's treated like an actual medical/mental condition. Dean might be able to mange it at times but it comes off randomly and strength of the urges varies and depending on the situation like this one Dean might not be able to hold it back. The past few episodes have been about Dean trying to get ahold of the Marks influence, we saw in last episode that he went a whole case without feeling its pull, but that was false hope, Dean might have his good days and times when he can fight the urges but he can't live with this Mark they need a permeant solution
For similar violence, when the monster is a "regular person", it is so much worse. Most people feel uncomfortable because there is no distance between that kind of monster and us. It means the similarities between hunters and monsters are greater than we want to think about. But this layer of reality in a fantasy show gives the make-believe world more gravitas. Of course, we knew from the beginning that the main characters are not the stereotypical good guys in white hats, but we painted their hats light grey without thinking too much about it. Those human-monster episodes remind us that there are real consequences to what Dean, Sam, and Castiel do on the regular. We know they won't die (at least not permanently) because of plot armor. Yet the brutality of Dean's actions, put in a mirror image of the actions of the monster of the week (so to speak) makes the fear of "losing" one of the main characters suddenly very real.
Yeah, that scene really showed that sometimes, the worst monsters in Supernatural are 100% human. Seeing Claire kick the crap out of him was supremely cathartic, though. Also, more info on Rowena and Crowley's past was more than welcome, and you're going to love what's coming.
I quite like Claire; she has charm, understandable attitude, a decently fleshed out backstory, and relevance to our main characters. To me, she really works well as a character on many levels. I love the idea of bringing back Jimmy Novak's daughter to have Cas deal with the consequences of previous actions that he felt he took "for the greater good".
charm? Where? We must be watching different shows. She's just way too whiny and angsty for me. I like Cas seeing what became of her, but if this is all we see of her, I'm good.
@@huchlvr Thankfully, people find charm in different things. Personally, I find little charm in people commenting to disregard someone else's subjective taste. What you can "whiny and angsty", I call "understandable attitude". Given her age and trauma, I think she is surprisingly forgiving. I wouldn't have blamed her if she killed Cas, and I say that as someone whose favourite character is Cas. He DID ruin her entire life, and it would be completely unbelievable if she was reasonable about it. Traumatized and abused kids seldom are.
@@ancatdal I do agree with your second paragraph. She’s absolutely 100% entitled to feel how she does. And while he is not responsible for her mother abandoning her, he is responsible for taking her father and causing her mother to go crazed looking for her husband. But I’m also not a passive aggressive witch like you proved in your first paragraph. Just like you I also can HAVE MY OWN OPINION on fictional characters.
@@huchlvr You're welcome to have your own opinion, I have in no way questioned your right to that; it's only how you approach disagreeing with my subjective opinion that I take issue with, how you direct your opinion at me personally. You question if we're even watching the same show, and ask me to explain where I could possibly see charm in this character. You could have also chosen to say something along the lines of: "I'm really curious what you find charming about her, because I personally found her to be the opposite of that?" That's open to differing perspectives while maintaining your own, rather than questioning whether we would even be watching the same show. Maybe I'm not reading you intended tone right, and judging based on previous experience with RUclips comment, but it's really not very pleasant to have something this subjective, this much a matter of taste, be questioned as if something must be wrong with how I perceive things. I see people every day express their attraction to people where I just do not see it, or find them repelling even; but I don't comment that these people need their eyes checked, because how could anyone consider this person attractive? Charm, beauty, likability and attractiveness are all highly subjective, thankfully! If it weren't, we'd all be wanting the same things, the same people. We can have very differing tastes, no problem by me. I'm only minding how you direct yourself at me. Maybe we communicate too differently, and it would just be best to just end the conversation here?
Kathryn is such an amazing actress and i will always support her projects she does ❤❤ also doesn't help i have a huge crush on her(and Hailee Steinfeld) but anytime i see her in a show or big movie, i always remember her as Claire Novak
I feel like Dean's little massacre would be a lot more impactful if the people involved had been innocent instead of trying to traffic an underage girl.
True these guys deserved it, but despite that they were human and the brothers generally try to avoid killing humans. Plus its a reminder that the Mark of Cain cannot be controlled for long
They were partially innocent. They weren't monsters, demons, major criminals who murdered and such, they were humans who did relatively bad things sure. They tried to survive and made bad choices, selfish sure but, not evil people. So, in the sense, they did not deserve it, what happened to them and i think that is why they chose humans, instead of like vampires or what ever, because we have seen that before, humans with vampires. So, it indeed was, it left big impact on Dean and to the story.
The writers trusted us to value the sanctity of human life enough for this to be significantly impactful as-is. IMO, the mitigating factors were supposed to be just enough to keep us from turning against Dean. They probably felt that some folks wouldn't've been able to forgive him if he'd slaughtered complete innocents. (Or maybe they just felt like that was too much to expect Dean himself to move on from & they didn't want to lead the story too far down that particular road.) I don't believe in the death penalty, but even if I did, I think most people would draw a distinction between what the loan shark was doing (knowingly & willingly, he was going to rape Claire) and everyone else in the room. For example: Randy was scum, but when his life/health wasn't being immediately threatened, he wasn't trafficking anyone. He was manipulating children into stealing for him, sure (risking their freedom, primarily) to try to improve his own crappy situation, but he wasn't raping them or selling them. Ultimately, he *did* sell Claire out, but he wasn't like the loan shark: a guy who made that decision just for the fun of it. He did it because the alternative was likely to be broken legs - and, a little further down the line, probably a gun to his head. And we don't know anything about the muscle the loan shark had working with him. We know they didn't stop him, but we don't know if they loved him or hated him, if they were terrified of him, if they were only with him because they were desperate to get out of a worse situation (the way Claire herself turned to bad people to be "family" out of desperation/in the wake of trauma), or what. Lastly... punishment is often pretty different for an *attempted* crime vs. a successfully-completed one, and there are good reasons for that. First: if you're punishing someone for the consequences of their actions (harm-based sentencing), well, a crime that's prevented doesn't have the same level of consequences. (Claire was shaken up, but she wasn't actually raped.) Second: there's always a chance that the offender might've turned away from the act at the last minute (whether you want to call that being struck by conscience or having a failure of courage or what). People change their minds all the time. They consider doing something bad, even take steps towards it, then "chicken out" - or think better of it - and walk away. (This is true for the loan shark, but also for Randy & the others. They still could've changed their minds. They still could've tried to stop it.) So, yeah. It SHOULD'VE been shocking, even in those circumstances, that Dean killed all those people just because he was provoked. Even if they made some terrible choices to wind up in that room in the first place. As Dean said himself about the criminals back in Folsom Prison Blues, "Just because these people are in jail, doesn't mean they deserve to die." And THAT was just about whether it was worth risking his life to *save* them.
This episode was uncomfortable to watch because it could have gone a lot worse for claires character, but she was saved by cass , which was brilliant to watch.
Dean could answer Sam honestly that it WAS self defense. They were clearly out for blood, since they couldn't get their money (or Claire) from Randy. And I agree that while we don't like them killing humans, is the world really any better off with those dirtbags in it? Now to Claire. She is 100% right on her feelings. The counselor is 100% right on not letting Cas get custody of Claire. And I'm so glad she was able to get some licks in. But I HATE Claire. She's a whiny emo baby with very few redeeming qualitiess IMO.
You’ve started my favourite block of episodes from my favourite season, it’s killing me waiting week-to-week for these reactions! More so than when I had to wait each week for it to unwind in real time, because now I know what’s coming up! 😜 That story about John is my favourite of the entire series. Because I don’t hold the same rancor that a lot of people do for John. Initially John was supposed to be harsh and tough, and made bad choices BECAUSE he would go to any length to keep his sons safe. And you can argue all you want that he hurt his kids by going too far. But he didn’t do it out of maliciousness. There was the scene right before Yellow Eyes took him where he and Sam hashed it out. John apologised and expressed his love for them. He showed it by dying for Dean. He showed it by helping kill Yellow Eyes in the cemetery. Was he too hard, and mean at times? Yep. Parents make mistakes. One of JDM’s first cons, someone asked him essentially why John was such a horrible person and a sh*t, abusive father. JDM said “That became the story AFTER I left! That wasn’t the character I was playing!” I think this story of John here was the start of the writers starting to right their wrong (well, they also did so when showing young John in the past). They themselves said they were surprised at the absolute vitriol the fans were showing to John. No empathy for his situation. And that wasn’t their intention. They worked hard to pull that “abusive” lens back the final years.
I'm right there with you! I can't stand, and equally, do not understand the hate that John gets...and I'm also aware of how JDM was horrified that people felt that way about his character. I can't imagine how aggravating that must be, to play a character and have the audience react to him in a completely negative and unexpected way. I absolutely adore John, and yeah, that's a very cool story 😎 ❤
It's wild that human Dean with the mark is much scarier than full demon Dean.
The young actress that played Claire, is famous these days, this was her brake through role, well, not break through, but from where she was noticed from and hired on to play bigger roles. She been in pretty big movies.
She’s also a Wincest shipper if the rumors are true
What other movies has she been in?
Kathryn Newton? She's been in Lisa Frankenstein, the Third Ant Man movie, Detective Pikachu
@@darthevil9999 Oh wow I love those movies! God I’m blind
After this season you might wanna check the hillywood show supernatural parody it's a good watch think you would like it
@@patrickmcguire7896she's also in "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri", a fantastic, critically acclaimed film.
This was a great episode. Everyone realizing that dean can snap at any time.
I don't know if you know this, but there was a season of Supernatural:The animation. It is an anime that had some original stories and some of the better ones from S1 and 2. Jared (Sam) did his own voice the entire season.
Dean has been desperately trying to convince himself that he can control the Mark. This failure to do so is devastating.
I felt sick when that creep went after Claire too. I'm so glad that Supernatural brought Claire back into the story. Jimmy would be so proud of her strength.
I like how the writers finally address when Castiel possessed Jimmy he took a father away from his daughter - I know he agreed to it but it is still pretty messed up when you think about it.
Agreed its one of the forgotten plot points from the earlier seasons I'm glad they brought back. Would've liked them to bring back the Anti-Christ Jessie or those Amazons but hey bringing back works so I'm happy for that at least
@@patrickmcguire7896 both good ideas
My favorite part of this episode is the story Dean and Sam share about John tracking down Dean as a teenager. "You don't like me? That's fine. It's not my job to be liked. It's my job to raise you right."
I feel like Claire was the Cole storyline done right. That storyline being someone from one of the brothers past case comes back jaded and angry at them even though it wasn't their fault. There are two reasons it works with Claire and not Cole. First it helps that we actually saw what happened to her on the show and not a pre-series flashback, it makes us connect with her more. And second the big problem I had with Cole was his cocky attitude, Claire had an attitude to but she's a teenager and given her trauma its understandable. Yeah Cole had his trauma to but given aside from his dad dying we don't know much about his childhood, if was raised by his mom or the foster system, plus he has a wife and kid so his wasn't all bad when compared to Claire
Claire is also played by a much better actor.
This is why I love the Mark of Cain arc! It's treated like an actual medical/mental condition. Dean might be able to mange it at times but it comes off randomly and strength of the urges varies and depending on the situation like this one Dean might not be able to hold it back. The past few episodes have been about Dean trying to get ahold of the Marks influence, we saw in last episode that he went a whole case without feeling its pull, but that was false hope, Dean might have his good days and times when he can fight the urges but he can't live with this Mark they need a permeant solution
For similar violence, when the monster is a "regular person", it is so much worse. Most people feel uncomfortable because there is no distance between that kind of monster and us. It means the similarities between hunters and monsters are greater than we want to think about.
But this layer of reality in a fantasy show gives the make-believe world more gravitas. Of course, we knew from the beginning that the main characters are not the stereotypical good guys in white hats, but we painted their hats light grey without thinking too much about it.
Those human-monster episodes remind us that there are real consequences to what Dean, Sam, and Castiel do on the regular. We know they won't die (at least not permanently) because of plot armor. Yet the brutality of Dean's actions, put in a mirror image of the actions of the monster of the week (so to speak) makes the fear of "losing" one of the main characters suddenly very real.
Yeah, that scene really showed that sometimes, the worst monsters in Supernatural are 100% human. Seeing Claire kick the crap out of him was supremely cathartic, though. Also, more info on Rowena and Crowley's past was more than welcome, and you're going to love what's coming.
I quite like Claire; she has charm, understandable attitude, a decently fleshed out backstory, and relevance to our main characters. To me, she really works well as a character on many levels. I love the idea of bringing back Jimmy Novak's daughter to have Cas deal with the consequences of previous actions that he felt he took "for the greater good".
charm? Where? We must be watching different shows. She's just way too whiny and angsty for me. I like Cas seeing what became of her, but if this is all we see of her, I'm good.
@@huchlvr Thankfully, people find charm in different things. Personally, I find little charm in people commenting to disregard someone else's subjective taste.
What you can "whiny and angsty", I call "understandable attitude". Given her age and trauma, I think she is surprisingly forgiving. I wouldn't have blamed her if she killed Cas, and I say that as someone whose favourite character is Cas. He DID ruin her entire life, and it would be completely unbelievable if she was reasonable about it. Traumatized and abused kids seldom are.
@@ancatdal I do agree with your second paragraph. She’s absolutely 100% entitled to feel how she does. And while he is not responsible for her mother abandoning her, he is responsible for taking her father and causing her mother to go crazed looking for her husband. But I’m also not a passive aggressive witch like you proved in your first paragraph.
Just like you I also can HAVE MY OWN OPINION on fictional characters.
@@huchlvr You're welcome to have your own opinion, I have in no way questioned your right to that; it's only how you approach disagreeing with my subjective opinion that I take issue with, how you direct your opinion at me personally. You question if we're even watching the same show, and ask me to explain where I could possibly see charm in this character. You could have also chosen to say something along the lines of: "I'm really curious what you find charming about her, because I personally found her to be the opposite of that?"
That's open to differing perspectives while maintaining your own, rather than questioning whether we would even be watching the same show.
Maybe I'm not reading you intended tone right, and judging based on previous experience with RUclips comment, but it's really not very pleasant to have something this subjective, this much a matter of taste, be questioned as if something must be wrong with how I perceive things.
I see people every day express their attraction to people where I just do not see it, or find them repelling even; but I don't comment that these people need their eyes checked, because how could anyone consider this person attractive?
Charm, beauty, likability and attractiveness are all highly subjective, thankfully! If it weren't, we'd all be wanting the same things, the same people. We can have very differing tastes, no problem by me. I'm only minding how you direct yourself at me.
Maybe we communicate too differently, and it would just be best to just end the conversation here?
Kathryn is such an amazing actress and i will always support her projects she does ❤❤ also doesn't help i have a huge crush on her(and Hailee Steinfeld) but anytime i see her in a show or big movie, i always remember her as Claire Novak
I feel like Dean's little massacre would be a lot more impactful if the people involved had been innocent instead of trying to traffic an underage girl.
True these guys deserved it, but despite that they were human and the brothers generally try to avoid killing humans. Plus its a reminder that the Mark of Cain cannot be controlled for long
They were partially innocent. They weren't monsters, demons, major criminals who murdered and such, they were humans who did relatively bad things sure. They tried to survive and made bad choices, selfish sure but, not evil people. So, in the sense, they did not deserve it, what happened to them and i think that is why they chose humans, instead of like vampires or what ever, because we have seen that before, humans with vampires. So, it indeed was, it left big impact on Dean and to the story.
Well I doubt he would have snapped on innocent people.
Dean would not kill innocents. To be honest, Iy wanted to kill them all when that creep touched Claire.
The writers trusted us to value the sanctity of human life enough for this to be significantly impactful as-is. IMO, the mitigating factors were supposed to be just enough to keep us from turning against Dean. They probably felt that some folks wouldn't've been able to forgive him if he'd slaughtered complete innocents. (Or maybe they just felt like that was too much to expect Dean himself to move on from & they didn't want to lead the story too far down that particular road.)
I don't believe in the death penalty, but even if I did, I think most people would draw a distinction between what the loan shark was doing (knowingly & willingly, he was going to rape Claire) and everyone else in the room.
For example: Randy was scum, but when his life/health wasn't being immediately threatened, he wasn't trafficking anyone. He was manipulating children into stealing for him, sure (risking their freedom, primarily) to try to improve his own crappy situation, but he wasn't raping them or selling them. Ultimately, he *did* sell Claire out, but he wasn't like the loan shark: a guy who made that decision just for the fun of it. He did it because the alternative was likely to be broken legs - and, a little further down the line, probably a gun to his head.
And we don't know anything about the muscle the loan shark had working with him. We know they didn't stop him, but we don't know if they loved him or hated him, if they were terrified of him, if they were only with him because they were desperate to get out of a worse situation (the way Claire herself turned to bad people to be "family" out of desperation/in the wake of trauma), or what.
Lastly... punishment is often pretty different for an *attempted* crime vs. a successfully-completed one, and there are good reasons for that. First: if you're punishing someone for the consequences of their actions (harm-based sentencing), well, a crime that's prevented doesn't have the same level of consequences. (Claire was shaken up, but she wasn't actually raped.) Second: there's always a chance that the offender might've turned away from the act at the last minute (whether you want to call that being struck by conscience or having a failure of courage or what). People change their minds all the time. They consider doing something bad, even take steps towards it, then "chicken out" - or think better of it - and walk away. (This is true for the loan shark, but also for Randy & the others. They still could've changed their minds. They still could've tried to stop it.)
So, yeah. It SHOULD'VE been shocking, even in those circumstances, that Dean killed all those people just because he was provoked. Even if they made some terrible choices to wind up in that room in the first place. As Dean said himself about the criminals back in Folsom Prison Blues, "Just because these people are in jail, doesn't mean they deserve to die."
And THAT was just about whether it was worth risking his life to *save* them.
This is when the season picks up for me. Some really great moments coming up. Looking forward to your reaction to the book of the damned
my favorite character is here! love claire so much
This episode was uncomfortable to watch because it could have gone a lot worse for claires character, but she was saved by cass , which was brilliant to watch.
I'm with you. I love it when people are the monsters.
Dean could answer Sam honestly that it WAS self defense. They were clearly out for blood, since they couldn't get their money (or Claire) from Randy. And I agree that while we don't like them killing humans, is the world really any better off with those dirtbags in it?
Now to Claire. She is 100% right on her feelings. The counselor is 100% right on not letting Cas get custody of Claire. And I'm so glad she was able to get some licks in. But I HATE Claire. She's a whiny emo baby with very few redeeming qualitiess IMO.
You’ve started my favourite block of episodes from my favourite season, it’s killing me waiting week-to-week for these reactions! More so than when I had to wait each week for it to unwind in real time, because now I know what’s coming up! 😜 That story about John is my favourite of the entire series. Because I don’t hold the same rancor that a lot of people do for John. Initially John was supposed to be harsh and tough, and made bad choices BECAUSE he would go to any length to keep his sons safe. And you can argue all you want that he hurt his kids by going too far. But he didn’t do it out of maliciousness. There was the scene right before Yellow Eyes took him where he and Sam hashed it out. John apologised and expressed his love for them. He showed it by dying for Dean. He showed it by helping kill Yellow Eyes in the cemetery. Was he too hard, and mean at times? Yep. Parents make mistakes. One of JDM’s first cons, someone asked him essentially why John was such a horrible person and a sh*t, abusive father. JDM said “That became the story AFTER I left! That wasn’t the character I was playing!” I think this story of John here was the start of the writers starting to right their wrong (well, they also did so when showing young John in the past). They themselves said they were surprised at the absolute vitriol the fans were showing to John. No empathy for his situation. And that wasn’t their intention. They worked hard to pull that “abusive” lens back the final years.
I'm right there with you! I can't stand, and equally, do not understand the hate that John gets...and I'm also aware of how JDM was horrified that people felt that way about his character. I can't imagine how aggravating that must be, to play a character and have the audience react to him in a completely negative and unexpected way. I absolutely adore John, and yeah, that's a very cool story 😎 ❤
Mark Sheppard. ❤
HelLO everyone! Great to see another Sesska reaction!
DUN DUN DUN I love Claire and everything that comes with her in this show.
Also: Dean did nothing wrong.
How's your dog Rocko