Oh look a nice presenter who didnt mind answering questions and was ok with Ian saying he didnt see a difference. This was nice. Actually a neat concept
Help did I watch a different't video or am I dumb and missing something. Not disagreeing with anyone on this thread the point I thought was being missed is: Subsonic ammunition is by definition sub 1,126 fps. Don't know if it is because of instability of flight in the transonic region or for other reasons but 9mm subsonic is slower still. A 147gr 9mm sub being typically 980fps. Now the maxim that comes to mind is *"Slow hollowpoints don't really expand."* Looking at the film showing the fired hollowpoints the expansion doesn't look too shabby? So is this because: The longer projectile allows a deeper hollowpoint giving longer petals that can expand more easilly? The extra mass gives increased momentum that changes the forces increasing the hollowpoints expansion? This was the "Snake Oil" bit, the fired projectiles came out of a PCC with an over length chamber and they created a bastard 9X (21 to 23mm) cartridge to throw the projectile down the barrell at 1,150fps plus? That last suggestion was a joke BTW. It's just no one commented on the expansion of the fired projectiles and that was the elephant in the woodpile to me. Or did I miss the obvious?
@@Paelorian Two factors go into calculating kinetic energy, mass and velocity. If you limit your velocity to just below supersonic the only way to deliver more kinetic energy is to use more mass. More kinetic energy typically equals more effect on targets when hunting.
@@willh2739 The projectile has to be the same length to fit in magazines, so packing weight into the same space means you need to experiment with dense metals.
“Knockdown power” is a meme in relation to how hits usually discusses (caliber v caliber) but the higher amount of ft/lbs would be nasty in the wound channel. Very interesting round tbh
@@jamesstewart3856 higher ft/lbs doesn't mean anything for tissue damage assuming a complete pass through of the target. Handguns do not produce sufficient velocities for hydro-static shock to damage surrounding tissue like rifle cartridges. Strictly speaking of wounding capacity the larger the projectile as it passes through the better. IE FMJ 9mm < FMJ .45 ACP < HP 9mm < HP .45ACP. This is also assuming the projectile retains 100% of its mass, the more mass it dumps = more fragmenting, more fragmenting = more tissue damaged. Again, assuming complete passthrough.
I think it's a meme till about 9x25 Dillon/Max 10mm Auto loads. At that point I think the wounding potential on CXP2 size game (deer, antelope, goats, small black bear, human) does start to pull away from the 9s and 45s of the common handgun world.
@@beardoggin8963 they still making the first gen. They have just made revisions to the first design. If they called every revision to the design a new generation, the 320 would be on like Gen 40.
Already did the math, seems like the 185gr is doing about 370 ft lbs, in at 950 fps(according to their site) what barre that is, I dont know. I also did the typical adjustments for a carbine and numbers seem to be coming in around 1,235 fps at 624 ft lbs. That is provided of course the powder is even suitable for use in a carbine and etc... But for anybody wondering how a carbine might effect this ammo or what kinda specs is it getting, the 950 fps is their claim on their site. The 370 ft lbs is just using a simple ballistics calculator. I hope that answers any questions some may have on what kind of performance they could expect. In all honesty, the 185gr ammo seems to be doing about what .40 S&W is doing stock, only the .40 S&W can get a little more oomph... That being said, now 9mm guys can really say it can do what the .40 S&W can do and then some I guess. Well... to an extent anyways.
@@schifty1 The .40 S&W is a daily carry for me, and I can agree with you on this. That cartridge has way too much recoil, especially in a polymer frame like my S&W SD40VE, or a Glock or M&P Shield. I believe it would improve it dramatically, but with the drawback of cost. Twenty five rounds locally of .40 HP is twenty bucks give or take and I can only imagine how much that would cost, not to mention everyone getting away from .40 S&W in favor of 10mm and 9mm +P+.
Nothing is stopping them from giving the same treatment to .40, just startinng with your two most popular cals. Would be interesting to see what they could do with 10mm.
@@jdoerr779 But going .45 ACP limits magazine capacity, out of most .45s (that aren't 1911, or its derivitives) ten to twelve rounds in a flush fitting magazine. Whereas I can get an additional two rounds of .40 cal from something as basic as a starter S&W. Not to mention concealed carry, where you get even more limited capacity, which at that point, is equivalent in capacity as a revolver in a magnum load. However, .45 has its perks. More mass means more delivered kinetic energy on target.
david smith Nobody said anything about whether or not it was the best. Just that it would be neat. Sometimes things are interesting for the sake of being interesting.
@@ChristopherHallett While it demolishes your ribs. Momentum matters too, it's not an argument of pure kinetic energy, or we'd see more teeny tiny rounds going hypersonic lol.
So would this be on par with modern defense loads? Sounds like it has the ballistics of a .40 without the recoil and magazine space limitations. They look expensive too.
I just looked it up it’s 185 grain ammo at 950 ft./s so it’s basically 40 Smith & Wesson 180gr velocities and power without the recoil and you still get the 9mm capacity. There’s no information on the 325gr .45acp yet.
My biggest question is going to be how much does that depend on barrel length and will it be reliable with a fully loaded magazine. With the extra weight you’re probably going to have to have a heavier magazine spring to push up all of the extra weight. The factory springs are tuned for 115 to 147gr.
Jonas Strzyz It depends on the caliber but even with fast burning powder you lose a lot from a 3 inch to a 4 inch barrel in 9 mm. With this slower burning powder I wouldn’t go below a 4 1/2 inch barrel would be my guess in 9 mm and 45 doesn’t get A full powder burn as it is in a 5 inch 1911 barrel so my guess is the barrel length is going to be more significant compared to standard powder but again I’m just speculating. Take this with a grain of salt, I would have to do tests of my own. Unless Karl and Ian are going to do them for us. I can see this ammo doing very well in pistol caliber SBR‘s.
Wow, you don't know off the top of your head? Most 9MM loads are boasted with better numbers than they'll actually post. For instance while looking at average energy ratings for .40 AND 9MM (love knowing I'm smarter than other people writing actual articles), they had the average .40 load posted at 420 ft. lbs. of energy and 9MM at 450 ft. lbs. of energy. Your average 155gr .40 load will give you around 500 ft. lbs. of energy. My personal carry option is a DoubleTap 125gr TAC-XP that's rated at 1,425 FPS (4.5") producing closer to 600 ft. lbs. of energy. I've chronographed their loads PAST the advertised velocity. Again, even your comparable 9MM DoubleTap load wouldn't make anything past 500 ft. lbs., and they load HOT ammo. This 9MM delusion is annoying. More energy equals more tissue damage, no 9MM load will surpass a comparable .40 S&W load. It was designed to be one stuff above 9MM, as well as most .45 ACP loads. Rarely will you see a premium LE .40 load fail to expand, with heavy 9MM and .45 though. Sadly, that happens all the time.
So basically, they put a phat .357 round in a 9mm case...... Sounds cool to me. I'd Be interested in what the speeds of that round are, subsonic is subsonic but still.
So 17 rounds in a magazine at 1.5 knockdowns per round means you get 25.5 knockdowns in a standard glock 17, and 27 knockdowns if carried with one in the chamber.
Now that looks like a great idea and execution! One thing that came to mind when he mentioned that these run in select-fires was the mental image of points of impact if you had half a mag in these bad boys and half in standard 115gr, hah!
If the bullet performs terminally that would be a great home defense load with a silencer. If it actually performs you are getting normal pressure .45 acp energy levels in a subsonic 9x19. More mag capacity than .45 acp in a slimmer profile guns as well. I can see this taking off.
@@skyhop Penetration will be low because it's subsonic. The idea here is, you're looking for the most ft lbs you can get, while staying subsonic. If you want penetration, go with a faster round.
@@skyhop Are you also concerned about the penetration of .45 acp hollow points? Penetration as two components. Frontal area of the projectile and its kinetic energy at the time of impact(demonstrated well in the cases when hollowpoints fails to expand. Those bullets penetrate way deeper than same bullets fired from same gun to same target that do expand). If we assume same bullet performance(expansion and weight retention as a percentage) this will penetrate more than a normal pressure .45 acp hollow point(both have little over 500 joules of energy at the muzzle) because the diameter of 9x19 is smaller and the sectional density of 12 gram 9x19 is greater than 15 gram .45 acp. Like i said it will come down to the terminal performance of the actual bullet to determine if its worth it.
I quite like this idea. Being that it's loaded heavy but runs slow, this could theoretically (even though the US military would never field this) run quieter but hit just as hard on more low profile engagements. Pretty cool idea. Toying with physics and ballistics is always fun. Neat product. I'd definitely buy a few boxes to see what it's like.
Ignorant people use "knock down power" and there are a lot of them. I don't fault the sales team for using their language, because they are a large market the company wants to sell to, as long as it's backed up by sound factual testing with barriers and gel to measure what the terminal performance really is.
Most people use that term interchangeably with muzzle energy, if you can get two projectiles to stop in a body the heavier or faster one will impart more energy, but I think you can get more ftlbs easier with weight vs speed
This is awesome, didn’t know about this company. Been wanting to make something like this for a while, if you want more power but still want that quiet, you are limited to increasing mass. 460 Rowland could likely push those 45 bullets to close to the supersonic limit, make for a powerful subsonic round in a tiny package.
While momentum is beneficial for carrying speed through the air, the energy that you’re putting down range would increase more with a faster velocity. The equation for momentum is Mass X Velocity, while the equation for kinetic energy is (1/2) X Mass X (Velocity)^2. So, energy increases by the square of velocity, and is directly proportional to mass. I don’t know enough to speak of wound cavities, and whether or not a high speed pass-through would do more damage than a lower speed expansion, but the physics is pretty cool.
@InRangetv so many people get caught up in the velocity wars because “speed beats armor”. While this is true, a slower velocity with more mass can both bump up impact numbers but also provide a more reliable COMPLETE transfer of energy to an UNARMORED target (which, is statistically much more likely in an average self defense situation). Karl, to quote you “there is a there, there”. This company has my attention.
I think shellshock cases are slightly snake oil, since I load 124gr for 9major with regular brass cases and don't see issues. 124gr doing 1350fps with 8+ gr of HS6. Shellshock cases require proprietary dies to reload. They only would make sense if they came in 38 super comp, because then you could pick them all up with a magnet instead of bending over. But for 9mm it's not really useful.
Very interesting, I see merit there. Us bullet casters have dabbled in this plenty. I do have to call BS on the Shellshock brass. Absolutely unnecessary and just added cost. Standard brass can handle the pressure. I am a USPSA open division shooter and my 9mm major power factor load is a 124gr Precision Delta HP propelled to 1485fps average by a healthy charge of Vhitavouriv 3n38. Quickload calculates the maximum chamber pressure to be just north of 50,000psi. There are modern rifle cartridges lower than that. I use regular plain brass, most is range pickup and being fired many times. That "brass" isn't necessary. Plus for the reloader, that brass requires special dies and it's a pain in the ass. Being able to pick it up with a magnet is it's only redeeming quality.
I wonder how well it stabilizes out of standard 9mm barrels. I have heard of problems with bullet stability from 230 grain bullets grain out of some barrels in 10mm. That's not to say a faster twist in a different barrel would not make it work just fine. Keep in mind a jump from 55 grains to 62 grains made the military speed up the twist rate in the M16.
I don’t see how this will do anything to change the terminal effects on target, your basically turning your 9mm into a .40 S&W... After going through a ballistics class where a an expert from Federal, who studies the effects of bullets on flesh, told and showed us all on ballistics gel that the majority of handgun ammo will have basically the same terminal effect on target it seems to me the more important thing is having good quality hollow points and the highest capacity you can carry. This is just more snake oil ammo.
Wolfram is stupid expensive and the projectile metallurgy is "slightly" complicated. For example wolfram tank rounds cost in the region of 5000$ a piece.
On the Seismic website, they do not recommend using their 9mm ammunition on an HK USP model, (practically any HK pistol platform) and here in the video they are using an HK USP.
Well, by the physics, force is mass x velocity(squared). So technically, you can sacrifice mass, potentially up to the square root, in favor of velocity and have a net gain in force. However, I think the salient point that the rep made was that this ammunition is optimized for subsonic performance. With that in mind, you have an absolute maximum velocity that you can achieve, and since you can shoot out of subguns or PC Carbines with this ammo, they have to keep it subsonic whether it's from a 4in or a 14in barrel. With that in mind, your V is capped, and the only way to improve the force equation is by increasing M. Also, there is potentially a higher chance of full transfer of force, as well as conservation of momentum due to a larger/heavier round having more resistance to drag, as well as potentially expanding to a larger diameter on impact without fragmenting. I won't call this one 'snake oil', but I believe that it's going to have a very narrow application set, primarily that to people hunting with PC Carbines or pistols, Military/LE (especially those using suppressed weapons), and Karl and Ian at subgun matches.
I'd really like to know the velocity on those rounds to see how much energy they have. I get the idea since slower speeds, larger bullets plus a hollow point will help prevent over penetration and therefore transfer more energy to the target but do they actually have less energy then a standard round due to that loss of speed or is the mass increase enough to make up for it?
I have to agree with the rep, "Heavier hits harder". Ive seen that first hand hunting. High speed light bullets have a place but at close range when knocking down the target asap is desired, a heavier bullet is the way to go
The problem is in general speed, trumps mass. There is a reason we have gone to higher FPS, lighter bullets in rifles. Speed gives you farther range and a flatter trajectory. It also gives superior armor penetration, example a hot rod round like the 7.62x25 tok will sail through most soft body armor. I like the concept and practice, they have a certain purpose these will be amazing suppressed. Also I seem to remember a shot show where you were poo-pooing the concept of a bi-metal cartridge.
Until you exceed 2200fps, that speed isn't going to benefit you MORE than weight will. After 2200fps, yeah, things do tend to start favoring lighter projectiles, anything it takes to break that threshold. Below that, you're better off increasing the mass as much as possible to give the bullet a greater chance to drive deeper as it expands.
I certainly don't have trained eyes and it wasn't slow mo but when Ian shot that compact pistol with the heavy bullet it did seem to have a smoother less sharp rise . Slower pressure rise OR just superb Recoil control..? ;-)
I'd be worried about malfunction due to that shotshell primer casing (red area) at the back being ripped off by the extractor. especially after the the chamber heats up, and the metal expands, creating a tighter chamber. Might be fine for a few shots (it's intention). But I'd suspect prolonged firing would create more than average number of malfunctions. And bad ones at that, because if the rear rips off you have nowhere to preass against, to remove a jam. you'd have to remove the barrel to extract the steel wall of the cartridge.
From experience Self defense shooting I used hornady xtp Five shots center mass Bad guy reached the ER faster than I can get there Bad guy Survived I should’ve use 45 cap
I would love to see that .45 bullet loaded in an 45 colt case. Load it to standard pressures(around 900-1000 FPS), and you would have one wicked defensive load for the single action fans out there.
Its a gimic ammo.. it dosent have enough penetration which equates to terminal balistics ... a good bullet has medium penetration with HIGH velocity. so when the bullet hits you it dumps all its energy into the target..velocity has over 2 times more terminal balistics than weight because if it is able to go deeper it causes more bleeding because the impact shock wave.
Heavier mass only means something if it still has energy behind it. You can cram a 183 grain bullet in there and shoot it at 500 feet per second and that would be less effective than a 115 grain bullet going 1200 feet per second. Heaver is only good if it has energy behind it. Also this is more than a year old at this point and they only have 9mm listed on their site. I am guessing the 45 and the slugs didnt go over as well.
Kinetic Energy is 1/2*m*v^2, you'll get much better returns out of pursuing velocity rather than mass. The only problem with high velocity is overreaction over penetration and issues transferring the kinetic energy. Still curious to see gel tests.
e=mc2 Increasing the velocity will increase the energy more than increasing the mass will Bigger and slower or lighter and faster(other both mentioned at the end) have different uses but I suspect that they will have roughly equivalent energy output. that heavy subsonic round should be nice for suppressors.
An arrow is often more lethal than a .22lr round even though they both carry the same amount of energy. It's because it has a larger diameter which makes the animal bleed out faster.
What I am most curious about is the price difference between this and standard 9mm ammo. It isn't really any good if it costs as much as 100 standard rounds, at least for those of us who aren't so loaded they can dump $300 on a forward assist for the 22nd Colt AR.
If the cartridges have a similar amount of recoil, then the bullets have the similar amount of momentum. The only real plus that I can see from these cartridges, is that you are delivering the same amount of overall energy downrange, but at subsonic speeds, which is particularly congruent with the use of suppressors. Albeit with some differences, such as a slower with a slower and heavier bullet, you get less hydrostatic shock and more penetration. There is a bit of a trade-off, but with a suppressor it should show it's proficiencies particularly well. Just my thoughts.
The shooter gets hit with just as much momentum as the target. The guys selling faster smaller bullets are the ones selling the good stuff. The main advantage I see to a large bullet is when you want to stay subsonic. With a speed limit, the only way to get more energy down range is by increasing the mass of the bullet. If one doesn't care about staying subsonic, the faster the better (as long as there's not over penetration). At least this is what makes sense as far as the physics goes. There's a huge difference between momentum and kinetic energy. As I started out saying, the gun powder sends just as much momentum into the shooters hand as it sends down range to the target. Obviously the momentum of a round isn't the property one uses to figure out stopping power.
You guys did a spinner test a few years ago of .45 vs 9mm Luger on the spinner It would be fun to see 115gr vs 185gr 9mm challenge on the degreased spinner to see if a difference is there
The french THV experiments in 9mm showed that low mass high velocity projectiles tend to have very erratic terminal ballistics. So I agree with you guys that massive, slow moving slugs have a proven kill potential since the 1400s.
Curious how this performs in something like an M&P Shield. Typically a slower burning powder means a longer barrel. I do like this idea though, especially for use with suppressors
But doesn’t Ke=mv^2 so that would mean that velocity does matter. It would matter quite a bit. But I guess if you’re stuck with 9x19 dimensions mass is easier to get
Yeah it would transmit more kinetic energy to steel theoretically flipping it sooner. Id take my chances with a bigger bullet over like a 65 grain hyper velocity one
Not sure about this. For spinners you need to transfer more momentum to the target. If the recoil impulse is no different from that of regular 9x19, then momentum transferred to the spinner plate should be no different too.
Maybe I'm missing something here. As I understand it you want to deliver the maximum amount of energy that is practical. Kinetic energy is defined as being 1/2MV² so while doubling the mass and maintaining the same velocity would give you twice as much energy, doubling the velocity for the same mass would give you 4 times as much energy. Wouldn't the desire to be to make the fastest cartridge as is possible for a given bullet weight? Momentum is the derivative of energy and as such is defined as MV so straight mass x velocity. So by the formula doubling the mass gets you 2x Energy and 2x momentum but doubling velocity gets you 4x energy and that same 2x momentum. Anyone care to explain what I'm missing?
i am of the opinion that more mass doesn't mean a damned thing if you are getting full penetration of the target. Specifically for handgun cartridges, the only wounding capacity comes from crushed tissue since hydro-static shock does not have enough strength to damage surrounding tissue from handgun velocities. Therefore for handguns, the biggest, and frankly only metric that matters for wounding is the projectile size as it passes through. Obviously you have to take into account the real world, you can't run around with a 20mm handgun, and capacity is also important. But when strictly speaking for wounding capacity the larger the diameter the better. But that also takes into account hollow point expansion. A hollow point 9mm is better at wounding than a FMJ .45acp, but a hollow point .50AE is better than just about anything else. Now is that practical to carry? probably not. Although, truthfully the 2,300 FPS 9mm does sound like it may jump the gap and allow hydro-static shock to produce a sufficient wounding method, but at that speed its is barrely cutting it. If someone were to make a 5.7 round that could push 2,800fps, then we would have something.
enough velocity for reliable expansion? "more mass means something" but doesn't it usually mean more penetration? Doesn't that risk overpenetration? Or does the longer projectile mean more real-estate for longer, wider spreading "petals" on expansion and thus more "braking?"
I would be curious to learn the muzzle velocity of such a cartridge. From what I understood about physics, velocity matters quite a bit when it comes to kinetic energy.
If the price per cartridge is right, this will be great for cleaning up the field with the pistol backup after shooting a sounder of hogs on night shoots. Suppressed, sub-sonic and hits like a hammer. Will make for a lot more confidence when walking up on a big one, wondering if it's really dead or just waiting to cut you up.
PristineTX it comes in a 20rd pack with 1 extra round “free”. Fuck that and their 20rd pack at $30 a pack. And fuck every other ammo manufacturer that sell SD ammo to “civilians” in 20rd packs.
Looks awesome but I would wait a long while people before you experiment with it you don't know how it will do with older guns I would not try that in a Luger, or a Star or a Tokarev at least not until it's been on the market for a while. Fingers crossed though
Doesn't force equal mass times acceleration squared? So a lighter bullet going faster would have more force given the correct mass to acceleration ratio?
Ammo for The Church of 9 MM that is in the territory of 40 S&W, 185 gr 950 fps 370 ftlb! It does concern me about the steel case separating from the aluminum head of used in a carbine. That is an issue I've experienced using aluminum cases ammo in a carbine. It a 6 inch or less barrel the aluminum case would have made it out of the barrel. As a 40 S&W heretic, I am sceptical, but my Beretta 92 is intrigued.
What about the fact that kinetic energy is mass x velocity^2 So an increase in velocity "outweighs" an increase in mass. It would be interesting to go in depth here.
I disagree on the greater mass argument unless your goal is purely penetration. The ballistics results I've seen typically indicate a bullet weight on the lower end has a greater ft/lbs generated. That being said there's a cut off point at which you lose too much mass to properly penetrate and you basically dump all the energy and the bullet shatters almost immediately failing to properly penetrate for optimal damage.
65% more bullet per bullet!
That's funny shit!. lol
Haha, yo dawg, I heard you like bullets!
@@WoodstaS that's a really old meme, a man of culture I see.
Like having another soldier on the field.
65% more freedom.
Oh look a nice presenter who didnt mind answering questions and was ok with Ian saying he didnt see a difference. This was nice. Actually a neat concept
It's almost like they have confidence in their product and aren't afraid that simple questions from an expert will make them look stupid....
@@chitoryu12 i likw this idea and will interested to see it in practical use. And Ian and Karl seemed intrigued
Isnt Ian seeing no difference a good thing here though?
To be fair, if you talk to Ian in the first place you probably know he's not going to hold any punches.
Help did I watch a different't video or am I dumb and missing something. Not disagreeing with anyone on this thread the point I thought was being missed is: Subsonic ammunition is by definition sub 1,126 fps. Don't know if it is because of instability of flight in the transonic region or for other reasons but 9mm subsonic is slower still. A 147gr 9mm sub being typically 980fps. Now the maxim that comes to mind is *"Slow hollowpoints don't really expand."* Looking at the film showing the fired hollowpoints the expansion doesn't look too shabby?
So is this because: The longer projectile allows a deeper hollowpoint giving longer petals that can expand more easilly? The extra mass gives increased momentum that changes the forces increasing the hollowpoints expansion? This was the "Snake Oil" bit, the fired projectiles came out of a PCC with an over length chamber and they created a bastard 9X (21 to 23mm) cartridge to throw the projectile down the barrell at 1,150fps plus?
That last suggestion was a joke BTW. It's just no one commented on the expansion of the fired projectiles and that was the elephant in the woodpile to me. Or did I miss the obvious?
We need a Paul Harrell meat target test.
Exactly! Bring on the meat!!
I might settle for an Andrew from TFB gel test
ASAP
@@Mr.9x19mm that new bungee cord makes all the difference
Alternately, it'd be nice if ShootingTheBull410 did some high speed, chronographed gelatin tests on a selection of their offerings.
Seems like a good idea for suppressed uses.
@@Paelorian Two factors go into calculating kinetic energy, mass and velocity. If you limit your velocity to just below supersonic the only way to deliver more kinetic energy is to use more mass. More kinetic energy typically equals more effect on targets when hunting.
@@Tomartyr hollow points are a war crime lol
@@Tomartyr I do understand that the bullet does not need to be a hollow point to be heavy
@@willh2739 The projectile has to be the same length to fit in magazines, so packing weight into the same space means you need to experiment with dense metals.
@@willh2739 doesn’t mean they don’t get used
That’s a lotta grains out of a 9mm para.
Presumably slower burning powder would favour longer barrels
These could be kickass in a PCC
Subsonics, heavy projectiles... I smell a modern DeLisle in the making.
>the .45 ACP ammo is even more ridiculous for that
throw this ammo in a MP5
Kaeska Wood that would be awesome! Let’s hope someone tries it 👍
Dank Dark I’m hoping In Range will make it happen!
Mass vs. Velocity has been an argument since the advent of smokeless powder.
Knockdown power is a meme in terms of handgun calibers, but that expansion on those rounds looks pretty nasty.
Eh ive seen deer with everything from 9mm to .45 acp, 10mm and .44- bigger bullets have a much more pronounced affect on live targets
“Knockdown power” is a meme in relation to how hits usually discusses (caliber v caliber) but the higher amount of ft/lbs would be nasty in the wound channel. Very interesting round tbh
@@jamesstewart3856 higher ft/lbs doesn't mean anything for tissue damage assuming a complete pass through of the target. Handguns do not produce sufficient velocities for hydro-static shock to damage surrounding tissue like rifle cartridges. Strictly speaking of wounding capacity the larger the projectile as it passes through the better. IE FMJ 9mm < FMJ .45 ACP < HP 9mm < HP .45ACP. This is also assuming the projectile retains 100% of its mass, the more mass it dumps = more fragmenting, more fragmenting = more tissue damaged. Again, assuming complete passthrough.
Pretty little fun summer project for the surgeon for sure.
I think it's a meme till about 9x25 Dillon/Max 10mm Auto loads. At that point I think the wounding potential on CXP2 size game (deer, antelope, goats, small black bear, human) does start to pull away from the 9s and 45s of the common handgun world.
One thing you guys forgot to mention is that here you can get about the same impact energy while shoot supressed sub sonic ammo.
That's pretty much the whole point in my opinion.
I was looking for this comment before I posted it
As val want to know your location
But does it use tank technology?!
No it uses rocket ship technology
lmao that guy was funny
I was hoping depleted uranium … oh well
My thoughts exactly
DU is still radioactive.
Cool … you'll be able to find the bodies in the dark … corpse tracers
@@scowler92 Eh, really just alpha radiation. Don't put it in your mouth and you'll be fine.
DU was my initial thought, closely followed by, surely not!
Next year at Shot show 2020.... Degenerate Neutron bullets. "Yes we use at 15.438^9 grain bullet.... "
Elmer Keith is losing his s*** right now
Why?
@@scowler92 ruclips.net/video/3t5X8f__vpk/видео.html :)
@@scowler92 Because this is just the kind of thing he was aiming to do with his semi-wadcutter rounds.
@@kyleclark4449
Well at least someone got it.
@@scowler92 I can't help but imagine how one of the 9mm. loads would do in a sub-compact pistol. Probably like having a snubnosed .357
The ages old debate: "Speed kills vs. Payload is everything."
How to make your sig 365 weigh 2lbs.
Makes it a better throwing implement
@@beardoggin8963 It should be lighter when the time to throw arrives.
Another Guy lol not if it is like the 1st gen 365s and the firing pin breaks or it just won’t cycle. That is what I was getting at
forgive my age but ruclips.net/video/GwvYC4Bz36M/видео.html
@@beardoggin8963 they still making the first gen. They have just made revisions to the first design. If they called every revision to the design a new generation, the 320 would be on like Gen 40.
I'd like to see some gel tests, as well as accuracy testing to see if the usual rifling twist rates will stabilize it effectively.
Already did the math, seems like the 185gr is doing about 370 ft lbs, in at 950 fps(according to their site) what barre that is, I dont know. I also did the typical adjustments for a carbine and numbers seem to be coming in around 1,235 fps at 624 ft lbs. That is provided of course the powder is even suitable for use in a carbine and etc...
But for anybody wondering how a carbine might effect this ammo or what kinda specs is it getting, the 950 fps is their claim on their site. The 370 ft lbs is just using a simple ballistics calculator. I hope that answers any questions some may have on what kind of performance they could expect. In all honesty, the 185gr ammo seems to be doing about what .40 S&W is doing stock, only the .40 S&W can get a little more oomph...
That being said, now 9mm guys can really say it can do what the .40 S&W can do and then some I guess. Well... to an extent anyways.
I'm not a .40 guy, but I'd really like to see this concept applied to the .40 S&W. Might take some of the snap out of that cartridge.
@@schifty1 The .40 S&W is a daily carry for me, and I can agree with you on this. That cartridge has way too much recoil, especially in a polymer frame like my S&W SD40VE, or a Glock or M&P Shield. I believe it would improve it dramatically, but with the drawback of cost. Twenty five rounds locally of .40 HP is twenty bucks give or take and I can only imagine how much that would cost, not to mention everyone getting away from .40 S&W in favor of 10mm and 9mm +P+.
Nothing is stopping them from giving the same treatment to .40, just startinng with your two most popular cals. Would be interesting to see what they could do with 10mm.
@@jdoerr779 But going .45 ACP limits magazine capacity, out of most .45s (that aren't 1911, or its derivitives) ten to twelve rounds in a flush fitting magazine. Whereas I can get an additional two rounds of .40 cal from something as basic as a starter S&W. Not to mention concealed carry, where you get even more limited capacity, which at that point, is equivalent in capacity as a revolver in a magnum load. However, .45 has its perks. More mass means more delivered kinetic energy on target.
Indefinite depends on how slow burning the powered is, they may be able to work up a carbine specific load with really slow burning powder.
When are the low velocity 9mm HE rounds for high angle artillery fire coming out? I need to do some medicinal fire support missions.
FDC is in the house!
A 9mm HEAT round???????
OUCH
9mm HESH to cave their entire rib cage/skull in
You be the judge
I feel like this bullet working from a 9x23 case in something akin to a Destroyer carbine could be really neat.
@@davidsmith9189 Yes, but subsonic.
A 38 Super would fit that bill.
david smith Nobody said anything about whether or not it was the best. Just that it would be neat. Sometimes things are interesting for the sake of being interesting.
david smith Good for them?
david smith Those factory pieces are far less interesting to me than what I am talking about.
The dual metal case seems interesting. I feel this ammo is deserving of a full length video.
Wow, 325gr 45cal, that's 45-70 territory, at least in bullet weight.
Came here to say my "leverevolution" 45-70's are 325 grain.
Yeah but at 100 fps, so at 50 feet "bulletproof" armour is effectively a cotton t-shirt...
@@ChristopherHallett While it demolishes your ribs. Momentum matters too, it's not an argument of pure kinetic energy, or we'd see more teeny tiny rounds going hypersonic lol.
@@AdamantLightLP22 eargesplitten loudenboomer will see adoption any day now
When these 2 are happy, I'm happy.
So would this be on par with modern defense loads? Sounds like it has the ballistics of a .40 without the recoil and magazine space limitations. They look expensive too.
Hmmm, I’m curious on velocity and ft/lbs. vs 115gr 124gr 9mm and 230gr .45,will have to look them up.
I just looked it up it’s 185 grain ammo at 950 ft./s so it’s basically 40 Smith & Wesson 180gr velocities and power without the recoil and you still get the 9mm capacity. There’s no information on the 325gr .45acp yet.
No info on 12 gauge either. Coming soon.
My biggest question is going to be how much does that depend on barrel length and will it be reliable with a fully loaded magazine. With the extra weight you’re probably going to have to have a heavier magazine spring to push up all of the extra weight. The factory springs are tuned for 115 to 147gr.
Jonas Strzyz It depends on the caliber but even with fast burning powder you lose a lot from a 3 inch to a 4 inch barrel in 9 mm. With this slower burning powder I wouldn’t go below a 4 1/2 inch barrel would be my guess in 9 mm and 45 doesn’t get A full powder burn as it is in a 5 inch 1911 barrel so my guess is the barrel length is going to be more significant compared to standard powder but again I’m just speculating. Take this with a grain of salt, I would have to do tests of my own. Unless Karl and Ian are going to do them for us. I can see this ammo doing very well in pistol caliber SBR‘s.
Wow, you don't know off the top of your head? Most 9MM loads are boasted with better numbers than they'll actually post. For instance while looking at average energy ratings for .40 AND 9MM (love knowing I'm smarter than other people writing actual articles), they had the average .40 load posted at 420 ft. lbs. of energy and 9MM at 450 ft. lbs. of energy. Your average 155gr .40 load will give you around 500 ft. lbs. of energy. My personal carry option is a DoubleTap 125gr TAC-XP that's rated at 1,425 FPS (4.5") producing closer to 600 ft. lbs. of energy. I've chronographed their loads PAST the advertised velocity. Again, even your comparable 9MM DoubleTap load wouldn't make anything past 500 ft. lbs., and they load HOT ammo. This 9MM delusion is annoying. More energy equals more tissue damage, no 9MM load will surpass a comparable .40 S&W load. It was designed to be one stuff above 9MM, as well as most .45 ACP loads. Rarely will you see a premium LE .40 load fail to expand, with heavy 9MM and .45 though. Sadly, that happens all the time.
So basically, they put a phat .357 round in a 9mm case...... Sounds cool to me. I'd Be interested in what the speeds of that round are, subsonic is subsonic but still.
1.5 Knockdowns
So 17 rounds in a magazine at 1.5 knockdowns per round means you get 25.5 knockdowns in a standard glock 17, and 27 knockdowns if carried with one in the chamber.
Now that looks like a great idea and execution! One thing that came to mind when he mentioned that these run in select-fires was the mental image of points of impact if you had half a mag in these bad boys and half in standard 115gr, hah!
nah, should have groups of 3. would be funny to see the shooters reaction on high speed.
2:38 "Very slow burning powder" -- If it's a very slow burning powder, what is the minimum recommended barrel length to get the full benefit of it?
From their site they rec >3.5". I shoot them out of my Glock 19 with no issues whatsoever. I definitely carry different ammo with my P365 though.
@@Fr33zy159 was hoping to see if it works in my Sig P938
Finally, someone developed a gee-wiz cartridge that makes sense and doesn't rely on unproven physics. I could see that 185gr 9mm load becoming my EDC.
If the bullet performs terminally that would be a great home defense load with a silencer. If it actually performs you are getting normal pressure .45 acp energy levels in a subsonic 9x19. More mag capacity than .45 acp in a slimmer profile guns as well. I can see this taking off.
Less concerned about home defense and more concerned with the penetration such a heavy bullet will provide, especially from a small sub compact.
@@skyhop Penetration will be low because it's subsonic. The idea here is, you're looking for the most ft lbs you can get, while staying subsonic. If you want penetration, go with a faster round.
@@skyhop Are you also concerned about the penetration of .45 acp hollow points? Penetration as two components. Frontal area of the projectile and its kinetic energy at the time of impact(demonstrated well in the cases when hollowpoints fails to expand. Those bullets penetrate way deeper than same bullets fired from same gun to same target that do expand). If we assume same bullet performance(expansion and weight retention as a percentage) this will penetrate more than a normal pressure .45 acp hollow point(both have little over 500 joules of energy at the muzzle) because the diameter of 9x19 is smaller and the sectional density of 12 gram 9x19 is greater than 15 gram .45 acp. Like i said it will come down to the terminal performance of the actual bullet to determine if its worth it.
More mass always penetrates more. Faster rounds expand faster and lose energy faster. This is gradeschool level physics.
I quite like this idea. Being that it's loaded heavy but runs slow, this could theoretically (even though the US military would never field this) run quieter but hit just as hard on more low profile engagements. Pretty cool idea. Toying with physics and ballistics is always fun. Neat product. I'd definitely buy a few boxes to see what it's like.
My first thought about pressure's was if it would work in a hipoint, glad to hear it as the first one listed lol
For me this might be the most interesting thing from shot this year. I'd like to see lucky Gunner do some ballistic testing with it
"I'd like to see lucky Gunner do some ballistic testing with it" -- Yes.
I could smell Ian's suppressed eyebrow raise at, ". . . knock down power. . ."
Talk about a must have at shot show... Those geissele badge holders are great! I use them for other trade shows.
I don't trust anyone who uses 'knock down power' as a metric to qualify their ammo. I'll wait for the gel tests.
but it nocs down targets pretty well
YES thank you! fudd lore at its best.
@@andyw237 THEY DONT MAKE A 46 BOI
Ignorant people use "knock down power" and there are a lot of them. I don't fault the sales team for using their language, because they are a large market the company wants to sell to, as long as it's backed up by sound factual testing with barriers and gel to measure what the terminal performance really is.
Most people use that term interchangeably with muzzle energy, if you can get two projectiles to stop in a body the heavier or faster one will impart more energy, but I think you can get more ftlbs easier with weight vs speed
I'm glad people are using the shell shock cases to make different style projectiles. Like one new technology allows another be created and combined.
Put those .45 projectiles in .460 Rowland cases lol
This is awesome, didn’t know about this company. Been wanting to make something like this for a while, if you want more power but still want that quiet, you are limited to increasing mass. 460 Rowland could likely push those 45 bullets to close to the supersonic limit, make for a powerful subsonic round in a tiny package.
Cool idea. I want to see more testing on the super fast bullet, the super heavy bullet, and a standard bullet tested side by side on ballistic gel.
i like this product. and openly supporting Defcon too, makes it even better.
While momentum is beneficial for carrying speed through the air, the energy that you’re putting down range would increase more with a faster velocity. The equation for momentum is Mass X Velocity, while the equation for kinetic energy is (1/2) X Mass X (Velocity)^2. So, energy increases by the square of velocity, and is directly proportional to mass. I don’t know enough to speak of wound cavities, and whether or not a high speed pass-through would do more damage than a lower speed expansion, but the physics is pretty cool.
@InRangetv so many people get caught up in the velocity wars because “speed beats armor”. While this is true, a slower velocity with more mass can both bump up impact numbers but also provide a more reliable COMPLETE transfer of energy to an UNARMORED target (which, is statistically much more likely in an average self defense situation). Karl, to quote you “there is a there, there”. This company has my attention.
I think shellshock cases are slightly snake oil, since I load 124gr for 9major with regular brass cases and don't see issues. 124gr doing 1350fps with 8+ gr of HS6.
Shellshock cases require proprietary dies to reload. They only would make sense if they came in 38 super comp, because then you could pick them all up with a magnet instead of bending over. But for 9mm it's not really useful.
Very interesting, I see merit there. Us bullet casters have dabbled in this plenty. I do have to call BS on the Shellshock brass. Absolutely unnecessary and just added cost. Standard brass can handle the pressure. I am a USPSA open division shooter and my 9mm major power factor load is a 124gr Precision Delta HP propelled to 1485fps average by a healthy charge of Vhitavouriv 3n38. Quickload calculates the maximum chamber pressure to be just north of 50,000psi. There are modern rifle cartridges lower than that. I use regular plain brass, most is range pickup and being fired many times. That "brass" isn't necessary. Plus for the reloader, that brass requires special dies and it's a pain in the ass. Being able to pick it up with a magnet is it's only redeeming quality.
Is it me or the bullet shown in the mag at 3:57 doesn't look like the one in Ian's gloves? Seems more brass/copper then red/stainless
I wonder how well it stabilizes out of standard 9mm barrels. I have heard of problems with bullet stability from 230 grain bullets grain out of some barrels in 10mm. That's not to say a faster twist in a different barrel would not make it work just fine. Keep in mind a jump from 55 grains to 62 grains made the military speed up the twist rate in the M16.
I don’t see how this will do anything to change the terminal effects on target, your basically turning your 9mm into a .40 S&W... After going through a ballistics class where a an expert from Federal, who studies the effects of bullets on flesh, told and showed us all on ballistics gel that the majority of handgun ammo will have basically the same terminal effect on target it seems to me the more important thing is having good quality hollow points and the highest capacity you can carry. This is just more snake oil ammo.
Agreed
The difference between this and 40S&W is that this has vastly more sectional density so it has a higher propensity for deeper penetration.
High Mass ammunition? Let me know when we get some Tungsten ammunition, now THAT will be high mass.
Tungsten is so hard it would be like shooting ball ammo. Tungsten is great in shotgun pellets
Wolfram is stupid expensive and the projectile metallurgy is "slightly" complicated. For example wolfram tank rounds cost in the region of 5000$ a piece.
No tungsten is not high mass look at your atomic table
@@RalphReagan Atomic mass is not the same as material density.
david smith
Goodbye barrel.
On the Seismic website, they do not recommend using their 9mm ammunition on an HK USP model, (practically any HK pistol platform) and here in the video they are using an HK USP.
Well, by the physics, force is mass x velocity(squared). So technically, you can sacrifice mass, potentially up to the square root, in favor of velocity and have a net gain in force. However, I think the salient point that the rep made was that this ammunition is optimized for subsonic performance. With that in mind, you have an absolute maximum velocity that you can achieve, and since you can shoot out of subguns or PC Carbines with this ammo, they have to keep it subsonic whether it's from a 4in or a 14in barrel. With that in mind, your V is capped, and the only way to improve the force equation is by increasing M.
Also, there is potentially a higher chance of full transfer of force, as well as conservation of momentum due to a larger/heavier round having more resistance to drag, as well as potentially expanding to a larger diameter on impact without fragmenting. I won't call this one 'snake oil', but I believe that it's going to have a very narrow application set, primarily that to people hunting with PC Carbines or pistols, Military/LE (especially those using suppressed weapons), and Karl and Ian at subgun matches.
I'd really like to know the velocity on those rounds to see how much energy they have. I get the idea since slower speeds, larger bullets plus a hollow point will help prevent over penetration and therefore transfer more energy to the target but do they actually have less energy then a standard round due to that loss of speed or is the mass increase enough to make up for it?
I have to agree with the rep, "Heavier hits harder". Ive seen that first hand hunting. High speed light bullets have a place but at close range when knocking down the target asap is desired, a heavier bullet is the way to go
The problem is in general speed, trumps mass. There is a reason we have gone to higher FPS, lighter bullets in rifles. Speed gives you farther range and a flatter trajectory. It also gives superior armor penetration, example a hot rod round like the 7.62x25 tok will sail through most soft body armor. I like the concept and practice, they have a certain purpose these will be amazing suppressed.
Also I seem to remember a shot show where you were poo-pooing the concept of a bi-metal cartridge.
Until you exceed 2200fps, that speed isn't going to benefit you MORE than weight will. After 2200fps, yeah, things do tend to start favoring lighter projectiles, anything it takes to break that threshold. Below that, you're better off increasing the mass as much as possible to give the bullet a greater chance to drive deeper as it expands.
I certainly don't have trained eyes and it wasn't slow mo but when Ian shot that compact pistol with the heavy bullet it did seem to have a smoother less sharp rise . Slower pressure rise OR just superb Recoil control..? ;-)
I'd be worried about malfunction due to that shotshell primer casing (red area) at the back being ripped off by the extractor. especially after the the chamber heats up, and the metal expands, creating a tighter chamber. Might be fine for a few shots (it's intention). But I'd suspect prolonged firing would create more than average number of malfunctions. And bad ones at that, because if the rear rips off you have nowhere to preass against, to remove a jam. you'd have to remove the barrel to extract the steel wall of the cartridge.
I feel like these are a shoe-in for suppressed use. Slow em down just enough and enjoy that mighty thump.
From experience
Self defense shooting I used hornady xtp
Five shots center mass
Bad guy reached the ER faster than I can get there
Bad guy Survived
I should’ve use 45 cap
Ian needs to start a second channel-"Forgotten Hats"!
I would love to see that .45 bullet loaded in an 45 colt case. Load it to standard pressures(around 900-1000 FPS), and you would have one wicked defensive load for the single action fans out there.
Its a gimic ammo.. it dosent have enough penetration which equates to terminal balistics ... a good bullet has medium penetration with HIGH velocity. so when the bullet hits you it dumps all its energy into the target..velocity has over 2 times more terminal balistics than weight because if it is able to go deeper it causes more bleeding because the impact shock wave.
Those bullets are HUGE
This looks great but I'm gonna reserve judgement for further testing and data
Heavier mass only means something if it still has energy behind it. You can cram a 183 grain bullet in there and shoot it at 500 feet per second and that would be less effective than a 115 grain bullet going 1200 feet per second. Heaver is only good if it has energy behind it. Also this is more than a year old at this point and they only have 9mm listed on their site. I am guessing the 45 and the slugs didnt go over as well.
Kinetic Energy is 1/2*m*v^2, you'll get much better returns out of pursuing velocity rather than mass. The only problem with high velocity is overreaction over penetration and issues transferring the kinetic energy. Still curious to see gel tests.
e=mc2 Increasing the velocity will increase the energy more than increasing the mass will
Bigger and slower or lighter and faster(other both mentioned at the end) have different uses but I suspect that they will have roughly equivalent energy output.
that heavy subsonic round should be nice for suppressors.
An arrow is often more lethal than a .22lr round even though they both carry the same amount of energy. It's because it has a larger diameter which makes the animal bleed out faster.
What I am most curious about is the price difference between this and standard 9mm ammo. It isn't really any good if it costs as much as 100 standard rounds, at least for those of us who aren't so loaded they can dump $300 on a forward assist for the 22nd Colt AR.
I totally expected this to be Ian and Karl ripping some snake oil ammo guy. I'm pleasantly surprised.
If the cartridges have a similar amount of recoil, then the bullets have the similar amount of momentum. The only real plus that I can see from these cartridges, is that you are delivering the same amount of overall energy downrange, but at subsonic speeds, which is particularly congruent with the use of suppressors. Albeit with some differences, such as a slower with a slower and heavier bullet, you get less hydrostatic shock and more penetration. There is a bit of a trade-off, but with a suppressor it should show it's proficiencies particularly well. Just my thoughts.
3:58 That looks like typical Brass case copper jacket ammo in the chamber, whats up with that?
Is there some way you guys could actually measure knock down power? Maybe shoot at some steel pressure plates?
The shooter gets hit with just as much momentum as the target. The guys selling faster smaller bullets are the ones selling the good stuff.
The main advantage I see to a large bullet is when you want to stay subsonic. With a speed limit, the only way to get more energy down range is by increasing the mass of the bullet. If one doesn't care about staying subsonic, the faster the better (as long as there's not over penetration).
At least this is what makes sense as far as the physics goes. There's a huge difference between momentum and kinetic energy. As I started out saying, the gun powder sends just as much momentum into the shooters hand as it sends down range to the target. Obviously the momentum of a round isn't the property one uses to figure out stopping power.
You guys did a spinner test a few years ago of .45 vs 9mm Luger on the spinner
It would be fun to see 115gr vs 185gr 9mm challenge on the degreased spinner to see if a difference is there
Would love to see more vids on ammo and mud(environmental) tests.
The french THV experiments in 9mm showed that low mass high velocity projectiles tend to have very erratic terminal ballistics. So I agree with you guys that massive, slow moving slugs have a proven kill potential since the 1400s.
Curious how this performs in something like an M&P Shield. Typically a slower burning powder means a longer barrel. I do like this idea though, especially for use with suppressors
I’m curious as to the velocity.
950 for 9mm which is insane for the weight.
"950 for 9mm" -- What barrel length?
Doesn't list on their website.
Saved for future look for ballistics testing
I have that same brown coat. Neat. The ccw pockets are kinda meh but it's a good coat.
I guess the added benefit of subsonic
that's a LOT more
But doesn’t Ke=mv^2 so that would mean that velocity does matter. It would matter quite a bit. But I guess if you’re stuck with 9x19 dimensions mass is easier to get
would love to see how a 1911 in 9mm and one in 45acp whould handle this. maybe a side by side comparison, possibly some ballistic jell test even
So, would these help with spinners..? In case someone is strugling with those?
Yeah it would transmit more kinetic energy to steel theoretically flipping it sooner. Id take my chances with a bigger bullet over like a 65 grain hyper velocity one
..lol need binary or multiple projectiles for those pesky spinners..
Not sure about this. For spinners you need to transfer more momentum to the target. If the recoil impulse is no different from that of regular 9x19, then momentum transferred to the spinner plate should be no different too.
@@tutzdesYT meh. not sure about this reasoning, recoil impulse is greater (bigger bullet = newton laws) just felt differently.
KE=1/2MV^2. Increasing projectile mass at the expense of velocity means a loss of kinetic energy. Not sure what velocities they are claiming, though.
Maybe I'm missing something here. As I understand it you want to deliver the maximum amount of energy that is practical. Kinetic energy is defined as being 1/2MV² so while doubling the mass and maintaining the same velocity would give you twice as much energy, doubling the velocity for the same mass would give you 4 times as much energy.
Wouldn't the desire to be to make the fastest cartridge as is possible for a given bullet weight?
Momentum is the derivative of energy and as such is defined as MV so straight mass x velocity. So by the formula doubling the mass gets you 2x Energy and 2x momentum but doubling velocity gets you 4x energy and that same 2x momentum.
Anyone care to explain what I'm missing?
As far as I can tell it's up for debate whether energy or momentum is more relevant
i am of the opinion that more mass doesn't mean a damned thing if you are getting full penetration of the target. Specifically for handgun cartridges, the only wounding capacity comes from crushed tissue since hydro-static shock does not have enough strength to damage surrounding tissue from handgun velocities. Therefore for handguns, the biggest, and frankly only metric that matters for wounding is the projectile size as it passes through. Obviously you have to take into account the real world, you can't run around with a 20mm handgun, and capacity is also important. But when strictly speaking for wounding capacity the larger the diameter the better. But that also takes into account hollow point expansion. A hollow point 9mm is better at wounding than a FMJ .45acp, but a hollow point .50AE is better than just about anything else. Now is that practical to carry? probably not.
Although, truthfully the 2,300 FPS 9mm does sound like it may jump the gap and allow hydro-static shock to produce a sufficient wounding method, but at that speed its is barrely cutting it. If someone were to make a 5.7 round that could push 2,800fps, then we would have something.
enough velocity for reliable expansion?
"more mass means something" but doesn't it usually mean more penetration? Doesn't that risk overpenetration? Or does the longer projectile mean more real-estate for longer, wider spreading "petals" on expansion and thus more "braking?"
I would be curious to learn the muzzle velocity of such a cartridge. From what I understood about physics, velocity matters quite a bit when it comes to kinetic energy.
Gotta try those, man, I wouldn't have thought you could have 9mm and 45 projectiles that heavy, I mean 325gr. Hp 45's, and 2.5 oz 12gauge slugs!
If the price per cartridge is right, this will be great for cleaning up the field with the pistol backup after shooting a sounder of hogs on night shoots. Suppressed, sub-sonic and hits like a hammer. Will make for a lot more confidence when walking up on a big one, wondering if it's really dead or just waiting to cut you up.
PristineTX it comes in a 20rd pack with 1 extra round “free”.
Fuck that and their 20rd pack at $30 a pack. And fuck every other ammo manufacturer that sell SD ammo to “civilians” in 20rd packs.
It's 9mm for the .45acp crowd. Good concept. That shell makes me nervous though.
Looks awesome but I would wait a long while people before you experiment with it you don't know how it will do with older guns I would not try that in a Luger, or a Star or a Tokarev at least not until it's been on the market for a while. Fingers crossed though
Doesn't force equal mass times acceleration squared? So a lighter bullet going faster would have more force given the correct mass to acceleration ratio?
Im interested in the AARP round.
Ammo for The Church of 9 MM that is in the territory of 40 S&W, 185 gr 950 fps 370 ftlb! It does concern me about the steel case separating from the aluminum head of used in a carbine. That is an issue I've experienced using aluminum cases ammo in a carbine. It a 6 inch or less barrel the aluminum case would have made it out of the barrel. As a 40 S&W heretic, I am sceptical, but my Beretta 92 is intrigued.
What about the fact that kinetic energy is mass x velocity^2 So an increase in velocity "outweighs" an increase in mass. It would be interesting to go in depth here.
I disagree on the greater mass argument unless your goal is purely penetration. The ballistics results I've seen typically indicate a bullet weight on the lower end has a greater ft/lbs generated.
That being said there's a cut off point at which you lose too much mass to properly penetrate and you basically dump all the energy and the bullet shatters almost immediately failing to properly penetrate for optimal damage.
Interesting round well-explained.
Longer bullet requires different twist rate to properly spin. Do wonder how these compare in accuracy to standard ammunition
What is the penetration in ballistic gel? And try it with a suppressor. This looks to be a hitman round.