How to Choose: AVR vs Separates (Pre-Pro + Amp) Home Theater Fundamentals Featuring AudioControl
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How to Choose: AVR vs Separates (Pre-Pro + Amp) Home Theater Fundamentals featuring AudioControl
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Seems so complicated to play those lossless files. TV, AVR, Bluray, Shield all refusing to play almost all the files 😞
Link not working anymore
@@tansanite09 decommissioned now.
I bought separates (monolith 7 channel amp and Yamaha Pre-Pro) because I have a large room and listen to concert level volume music. No receiver can handle that. They get hot and start clipping.
Waited for the extra power. Use my Denon AVR X6500 to power up 11 channels at first, which includes 2 front channel Cerwin Vega VE15 towers, 2 SVS PB2000-500 watts subs, 4 Cerwin Vega SL5M surrounds, 1-Cerwin Vega SL45C center, 4-8 inch two way Polk Audio Dolby Atmos ceiling mounted speakers, then two years later bought the QSC RMX1450A 300 watts/2 channels @ 8 ohms amplifier. The QSC really made the system sound four times better.
AudioControl gear is criminally under-rated imho. Thanks for sharing.
I’d love to test some!
When you swapped to seperates it made a HUGE change.
Agreed!
Of course separates are best, however, once you can afford really good equipment you may very well not have the same hearing you did when you were 14 so the absolute top of the line equipment will do you little good. Okay, assuming you are a little older, go out and get a Denon x4800h on sale somewhere. Put it in full preamp mode (turns off ALL it's power amps). Get a Buckeye amplifier and you will not hear the difference from a system of separates costing double.
That’s good advice. But I’d do a Starke Sound Fiera8.
Great value content. Thanks 😍
My pleasure!
6:58 Went from quadro to 3.1 to 5.1 and all pretty good, to 7.1 and was not happy. A lot of extra effort for not a lot extra. I now have 5.1 phantom centre, I am in the ideal spot at all time anyway, and the screen setup is in the way of the centre anyway, then I'd have to set up sides in additon to back speakers? How handy. Nope. Front wide and front height, now that I would like to see, much easier to set up at a desk.
4.1 is a good option for computer audio.
I would love to do just what you have. Do you mind saying what equipment and speakers you use? Also, do you ever miss the center channel, maybe on surround discs? I don’t think i will miss it and am interested first in music then ht. Thanks if you can say.
@@quadgirl1011
I had a Denon AVR-1513 (HDMI board busted but it lasted long enough) but now have a Denon AVR S-760H (maybe try 4.1.2, front heights or overhead, have to see what is best).
I had the Cambridge Soundworks way back, so that is why quadro, until my mother tossed it in the bin. Then I got a free Sony AVR hand me down and got 3 identical speakers (small Pioneers) so went 3.1 (small sub came later).
This is when I found out, having a center speaker is kind of obnoxious behind a smaller desk. It gets in the way of the monitor foot, then I have to put the keyboard more forward, which makes typing a bore, so I now always have monitor arms (very convenient even if you lack a center, get one) but it still is a bother so I had to go get a bigger (deeper) desk if I wanted a center. So if you go for the center, have or get a deep enough desk. Then if you have the screen normally quite low, you have to either put it in front of the screen or hide it behind it partially or have a very small center. So size the desk accordingly and take into account your ideal type height. This may seem too much detail or trivial but you do not want to make the mistakes I did if you go and get a center (and run through 3 not cheap inadequate desks).
The itty bitty Pioneers I mentioned, you would miss the center. Right now I built 2 speakers right out of Klang+Ton(looked it up for you, 2013-06, page 24), 8 inch Eminence PA and I subbed the compression driver for an SB Audience one, then made it so I could fit a Ripol sub underneath (pretty much just glue it under there and modify the filter, that is all) and missing a center is much less of an issue, if at all. Main thing is dialogue comes through better, though that likely depends on the exact speaker design and driver as well (I know some can sound a tad muddy). These are beefy and detailed enough to get away with no center. If Klang+Ton is hard to find (you can get them online, hint hint, you know) you can find some good building tips and kits if you like on the Troels Gravesen site, not cheap but I built a pair (Ellam 9800) and quite like them.
The clearer dialogue is the main reason to get a center as far as film is concerned. Games also for dialogue a bit, but more for the sound effects, which if you ask me is reason to get a beefy center if games is your thing too, more than with film, though I did skip a center while games are a lot played.
You can probably get away with 6 inch drivers very well though (I might and sell the bigger ones), smaller than that is not worth it because the horns are not smaller and the bass driver should not go too small. The reason I have a strong preference for compression drivers is the dynamics and reserve. I had 2×12 inch with compressions drivers in stereo way back, and fell in love. Battlefield 2, Worms, C&C, low enough noisefloor, from quiet to hard booms, it is lovely, though for music this probably would not fly as much (I'd say it does for HT but 100% there are other people that will disagree). If space does not matter there are some sweet 8/10inch builds some of which are easy to find here on YT (I'd go no bigger on a desk but you can). If I do go and build smaller 6 inch ones, I am doing 4 at once for front and back. You can mismatch them and be fine, I have that now, but if I could have them all identical I would.
*So short answer:* (and just my opinion) if the front mains are good enough, you can skip center. If you have 90% music, it does not matter. If you have 90% HT on it, probably get center.
If you want to do it on a budget: SB Acoustics SB20FRPC30-8, 27 liter closed, brace and dampen well (my currrent rears and soon front overhead/height to test out). What you could do if you can spare the expense is build 3(LCR) or 4 (2 front 2 rear) of these, grab any old (pair) speaker you have lying around as center or rears, test it out. Do _you_ miss the center with what you listen/play?
Now the reason I went and spent for 2 more height ones (in progress, I got the drivers) is I played Cyberpunk 2077 at someones house and I loved it. If you go full AVR and get a center, why not go all out and get at least 2 heights? Assuming you have any source material that uses it, there is not a load out there yet. Some films do very well with the added height, many have very poor mixing for it still. The games that do use it? Oh boy is this great. I built my own desk in the end, so modifying it with 2 long beams to add heights was easily done, but it may be too much to set up for you.
So gear wise, I just get a lower end receiver, and build my own speakers. Compression drivers all done come in large speakers 99% of the time (and a lot are flimsy plastic too), not fit for most desks. What I once did to solve the large AVR issue, was to get an EPQ304 1U amplifier, I got a usb soundcard from Aamzon, and tore both open, pulled out the entire input section from the EPQ304, then put the usb soundcard in instead. Voila, a 4.0 surround amplifier with usb input in 1U space. This may or may not be for you, and it currently sits at a secondary computer I have but just stereo. EPQ304 has a bit too much noise for my taste. Also cannot do heights, DTS and Atmos mandate transport over secured HMDI (not virtual) link only.
@@quadgirl1011
Equipment, I went from a Denon 1513 to now an S760H (started out way back on Cambridge Audio SoundWorks). You are close, so no need for high power unless you are deaf. Speakers, I always build those myself: Look for Troels Gravesen Ellam 9800 for a nice set (kit or get the parts) or the SB Audio 8 inch fullrange (27 liter closed, easy and cheap to build). Otherwise Cyburg Needle, few versions exist, for on the desk you can fold the design, just a horn anyway. I am partial to compression drivers because dynamic range, opinions will vary wildly. I have 2 front 2 back currently, 8 inch Celestions with SB Audience compression drivers, 225 horns.
Center, it depends. Long story short: if your left and right are beefy enough and have enough detail (to clearly push out dialogue which you otherwise would get over the center) you are golden. You are in the sweet spot anyway at all times. It is in the way of the screen or the keyboard unless your deks is really deep, you get center from below the screen and not directly front, if you get the center channel from the sides of the screen that just works better (opinions _will_ vary).
Nice discussion. But how do you decide whether or not to go for separates in case you are tight on budget. E.g. if an AVR gives 80W at 2 channels driven, how do we know whether it will be sufficient for a 7.1 home theater system having 7 numbers of 50W RMS speakers. May be the AVR wont output great sound at loud volume, but how to ensure enough power so that the speakers dont get damaged. Any thumb rules or calculations?
You use your speaker sensitivity, listening distance from the speaker and required volume level.
For example you have a speaker with 87db at 1 watt/1 meter in room sensitivity, at 2 meters (from listening position) would require 2 watts for the same 87db spl. Every 3db or meter further away from the speaker requires double the watts. Ex 90db at 2 meters with this example would require 4 watts, 93db requires 8 watts and so on. 90db at 3 meters would require 8 watts also. Dynamics is where you use up amp power generally. This formula isn’t exact but will get you in the ballpark of what amp you need. You see now low sensitivity speakers at a large distance can use a lot of amp power as you keep doubling power requirements for every 3db more spl and double for every meter further in distance. From 8 to 16 to 32 to 64 to 128 to 256/etc
@@jimhimesjr Calculating speaker requirements is fine, but the issue is calculating AVR output. None of the AVR specs provide all channels driven output power. If output is 80W per channel @ 2 channels driven, it should translate to 20W per channel @ 8 channels driven?? But from what i have read this is not the case. When all channels are driven, more power is drawn and THD graph also changes. So how do we select AVR if specs do not provide all channels driven power?
@@siddharth1177 yea I can’t answer that one. I know some avr manufacturers state an all channel driven rating (like Marantz/Denon 70% rule) but that varies from brand to brand.
@@jimhimesjr I am talking about denon and marantz. Havent seen all channels driven ratings.
@@siddharth1177 they give a 70% guarantee which basically is if the avr is rated at 100wpc at 2 channels it’s guaranteed 70% at 5 channels driven which would be 70wpc . You have to remember also how often are all channels playing at full blast. If your heights aren’t playing loud they aren’t drawing as much wattage from the avr power supply so it’s not necessarily drawing as much as you think. If 7 channels playing at full blast they say it’s closer to 60%. If 9 or 11 channels it’s gonna keep dropping
I just bought a ToneWinner AT-300 ATMOS processor. Additionally, I have a Denon 4803 AVR with 7 external inputs (which bypass the internal AVR processor). Would it be Ok to use the AT-300 along with the AVR? Any loss in sound quality? Thank you!!
I wouldn’t think there would be a sound quality problem. But it’s 2 pre amps in series .. give it a shot and let us know what you think. I’d probably pick up 2 Fiera4 amps and use those for power.
@@JilesMcCoy Well, this is the thing: the Denon 4308, like many other goods AVRs, has a "EXT IN" section where you can actually connect individual channels bypassing the internal AVR preamp. I don't know why not many people talk about this, since this is the most inexpensive way to go upgrade to separates, i.e., new processor with with our old AVR. Thank you.
@@eskerinola5845 Well one thing that gets messy is that your volume control of the main receiver won’t control the volume of the secondary receiver. So you have to use two remotes in this scenario. It ads complexity that would be deal breaker for most.
nice
Thanks!