As an aside thought, I am far more disturbed by the sins I have committed after having come to Christ than those I committed beforehand, because when I sin as a believer I sin against such great light and against such great goodness.
Being a pastor is a privilege and responsibility not a requirement for salvation. If you fail in leadership in this way you should be demoted to believer alone. Forgiven after repentance and restored to fellowship alone.
I dont know I'd demoted is the a proper term. It is like marriage, it is a blessing, a calling, but if you sin, you may lose it. Pastors aren't necessarily above us. But, i 100% agree with you on your point!!
It’s great hearing these teachings again! Thank you Pastor Conway for applying the Word of truth and handling it accurately. Thank you also to all who help with the I’ll be honest page and making it possible for us to hear
Adrian Rogers used to always say that whenever he’d hear someone remark about a fallen pastor “well look at far he fell”. Adrian would always say “you don’t know how low he was living”. And that is so true. He may have made so many secret compromises, that the public fall wasn’t a surprise
Steve Lawson never fell, as he was with an UNmarried woman. There was NO adultery involved. Those who rebuked him are the ones in error. If he’s fallen, and can no longer pastor, then Moses, and most of the patriarchs, who actually WROTE Scripture and who had more than one wife, would also not allowed in the pews, and would be seen as living in sin.
@@karinteeples9715 What Chapter and Verse of God's Law defines fornication as "sleeping with someone (generic) outside of marriage"? And who said that Steve Lawson was doing so, instead of simply taking an extra wife or concubine/lover as the Law tells men how to do?
I believe any 'shepherd' can be forgiven but not restored to his position. I know of a pastor who was removed from his position when it was found out he was gambling. He would not repent as he could not see that he had broken any command. I don't think a sexual sin is the only sin that disqualifies a 'shepherd'. Too many leaders are being allowed to return to a leadership position these days. There is obviously little fear of God or desire for holiness in the church at large today. Compromise is killing the church.
Thank you for this study on should adultery disqualify pastors and also other issues that could disqualify a pastor or member. Thank you brother for a reminder to keep a checklist for ourselves and others whether we are spending time in our daily devotions,when did we watch porn or obscene pop up on the phone or on TV last, how long have we continued in a particular sin and that needs to be corrected or publicly rebuked. It is a gradual decay at the roots that makes a tree fall and surely great is it's fall. Thank you for the pointers for restoration and how soon does it need to be done keeping in mind a little leaven can leaven the whole lump.
A pastor can be restored to faith by the church but once a pastor sins in those ways, they may never hold that office again. They have been corrupted and compromised.
@@jaybjay4121David committed adultery (wife-stealing), Steve Lawson did Not, as the woman was UNmarried. But yes, David continued to write scripture. Forgiveness makes us clean; this is an attempt to punish men to obey a forced monogamy only false doctrine of Roman Catholicism.
@@karinteeples9715 Where did I refer to 'my" law? Where does the law refer to what a man does who sleeps with an unwed woman, and where does it call it "fornication"; Chapter and verse. And how is this different than the Law telling a man how to take another wife or concubine/half-wife.
That just shows how important it is for an elder to meet the requirements of 1Timothy 3. The problem that arises is when that man begins to preach to the congregation, especially texts that involve godliness, purity, self control etc.. the people will be asking themselves “Is our Pastor living this out or not?” Which in return, tends to get us to think about the Pastors faithfulness instead of examining our own hearts in the light of the scripture. Hope this helps!
@RyanJDeacon I think what makes it difficult is the fact that he actually displayed purity and godliness by cutting it off, confessing, and forsaking it before it became anything more. For me that'd give me more confidence and more trust knowing that the pastors and elders are that transparent and serious about sin. Serves as a reminder that we're all human, all susceptible to sin, including leaders. I think this is one of many topics that the church has allowed to become taboo and blurry when it should be plain and simple. Your pastor and elders are weak, fallible men, simultaneously just and sinner, just like you and everybody else in the church. They're just in a higher position of authority and have a more vocal gifting. This unfortunately doesn't get reiterated enough and people's perception of pastors/elders is often one of thinking they're invincible and supposed to be perfect when none of us are. It's extremely unfortunate that the congregation handled it poorly. But spot on with that assessment. When we think of those qualifications we should all be examining ourselves too and not merely scrutinizing leaders.
@@davidbassjr.7909well said, David. It’s definitely a tender issue. But, all the more reason to pray for those who are in leadership over us in the Lord.
Tread softly in assuming outside the Holy Scriptures....that man was teaching and preaching against adultery and wickedness and yet doing it himself with what I would consider a child compared to their age difference. So, please tell me how anyone could sit under him again and not only believe his word bt trust him again? Sadly, he once had a great testimony or witness of a Godly life EVEN WHILE COMMITTING ADULTERY! PEOPLE CAN ACT IT IS CALLED HYPOCRISY!
The bible is clear on addressing sin in leadership, even if it doesn’t address sexual sin explicitly, so there is a guide for removal, and restoration after a time
It is staggering. However, reality has shown us that there is a reckoning with Christian leaders and their true inner belief systems. So many are wolves, and need to be revealed and then I pray they find Jesus authentically and pursue relationship with Him. Leadership in churches today, is continually changing and not for the better,. The question should be: are they wolves needing salvation or just morally weak? Either way they need to step down. Not as punishment, but as a way to truly find Him. 🔥
Well look at this way ... If a Pastor commits sexual sin and then is allowed to continue in their position of leadership - How can they then turn around and preach sexual purity to their members? ... Not to mention, how can they chastise other leaders within their church who are also caught in sexual sin? ... They can't.... Because their accountability, credibility, and trust have all been broken as permanent consequence of their sin.... Yes, spiritually they can still receive grace and forgiveness through Jesus Christ but does not alleviate the responsibility of the church to deal with transgression according to what scripture calls for. Allowing a leader who is caught in sexual sin to continue in leadership clearly goes against the standard of conduct that scripture requires. It shows poor stewardship, lack of self-control, apathy towards biblical mandates, and that the church does not take sin seriously or hold their leaders accountable. It cultivates a spirit of hypocrisy and is just a bad idea all around. We have to remember that Leaders are held to a higher standard of conduct than lay members. They agree to this oath at the time of ordination and should never be taken lightly.
Everyone betrays their position of trust when they sin against God whether sexual or not because we all make up the body of Christ As brethren we are supposed to be one body and when one part is affected then we should all be affected and help those who have fallen to be restored, not judge them by making them feel guilty and not able to move forward. Would you do that to your own child? Not give them a second chance? That’s not the God I serve. If we as parents love our children and give them chances then God who is greater in mercy has given us much grace
Pastor Tim, you are so right when it comes to forgiveness and trust. It really irritates me when I hear some Christians associate these two things together as being the same
To answer the question on your title, YES. The Bible was clear about the beyond reproach character of a pastor/overseer. It’s the highest, sacred calling for a Christian leader, a continuation of Jesus’ ministry role in His church. It that’s why Jesus asked Peter 3 times, do you love me? Feed my sheep. Love for the Lord makes you deny yourself and pursue His calling. Our patriarchs died, swan in 2, cooked in oil, beheaded for Christ and His church. If a pastor fell for adulterous relationship, our partiarch could be laughing right now for what makes modern day preachers fall for. So yes, no longer qualified for pastoral. The Lord will raise more faithful men don’t worry. He is cleansing His church to ready for His return. For His name’s sake.
8:02 Proverbs 6: 32-33 I would say it is different and permanent. If unrepentant (or only verbally repentant), it proves a false profession of faith; if repentant, I still say it permanently disqualifies an individual from pastoral ministry
It's a difficult one, but Paul himself seemed to be aware of the dangers of sexual immorality and being disqualified: 1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
No one is perfect? What was the purpose of Christ to come then. The greatest example is King David. Yes we must use much discernment in every situation.
David lived in Old Covenant before Jesus Christ, before the Holy Spirit dwelling in man, so God didn’t expect from David what He expect from New Covenant person. Have you ever read did someone in New Testament fall into adultery? Peter, James, John, Paul…? Whom more is given, more is required.
@@anthonysholars4782 David was a King, not a pastor. David was the King of the people of Israel. The church is not the same as the people of Israel, just as the ministry of a pastor is not the same as being a King. We cannot make that inference. The main purpose to come to Christ is salvation from hell. It is the eternity which it the main important thing.
@milandejanovic7872 it doesn't matter. David was under the same commandments as we are in terms of adultery. God is the same yesterday, today, and foever.
Nothing in scripture that says committing adultery permanently disqualifies a pastor. What ends up happening is good men get thrown out, but even looking with lust is adultery, and many pastors are looking at pornography according to studies, but they won't repent and are never caught.
To the person allowing their phone or whatever to ring for that long during a recorded message is beyond embarassing. How hard is it really, to put your device on silent, or turn it off altogether? How important was this message to you that you interrupted it with your selfishness?
If a man was involved in sexual sin before entering pastoral ministry, and some people knew about it. Or he went through church discipline and was restored to church after going through the restoration or counseling process, and it's now 7/8 years back or 10 years back but it's still in people's memories, will it disqualify him to enter the office of an elder? Full-time pastorate for that matter. Will that not disqualify him? Please help. 🙏👍. Someone who is seeking to be an elder, i am not talking about a person who has been in the office, i am talking about someone who has never been an elder of the church before. Thanks.
Yes. Lawson was deceiving the Church and mocking God in living a double life. He never was a member at Trinity Bible Church. Lawson needs to repent asap and then return into fellowship. Otherwise he is risking his salvation.
God said he takes the plans of the enemy and turns them around for our good ;he now has a different testimony so his mission is changed .he can still work for God but not as a leader he could be a personal evangelist like i am but not his previous position
@@chrisarmstrong3200 Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ said so in John 15:1-10 and the apostle Paul reiterated this in Romans 11:17-22. I could then say - repent and believe the warnings of Jesus and Paul.
Yes the Bible gives examples. Titus literally the book/ epistle of Titus Timothy 3.. Titus!!!! The whole new testament!!!! You as a pastor once saved are to be an example. Paul tells pastors that they will be held to a regard! They will be judged harder! You are sheparding a flock! Ministering to lost souls! You can't then stand and just disregard what the qualifications are to become any kind of elder in the church! Yes he is disqualified! Sexual sins are categorized as a personal assault. He should have fled lust! Flee temptation is that not what scriptures say? Then how could he be a pastor or teacher when he kept it quiet and sinned of the flesh Yes he repented I praise the Lord our God for this. But read actually read the Bible know it. If you have to ask this question I have to ask the question are you yourself even saved? What you say sounds as though you are blind. And the blind cannot see meaning are you actually saved trying to make excuses for what God gave us the list of qualifications? Are you higher than God? Is your own opinion or view higher than Him who gave us them to follow? I think no i know not! Please examine yourself in the Lord Jesus! He gave us the Gospel so that we may know!!!!
I remember when reading John, and a lady was caught committing adultery by the Pharisees, and they spoke to Jesus Christ about a woman who committed adultery, and the Pharisees wanted to stone her. Then Jesus Christ said “whoever is without any sin, let him be the one to cast the first stone.” After he told the Pharisees that, they were cut to the conscience and left. And Jesus Christ told the woman who committed adultery “go, and sin no more,” and Jesus Christ forgave her for committing adultery. That right their just proves that God can forgive others for committing adultery.
Yes, God can forgive anyone of anything .... if they are truly willing to repent. However, there is a difference in the way God (and the Church) deals with a pastor and his ministry. Steve Lawson has (so far) not repented of his adultery, and cannot be disciplined by his former church - because he was never a pastor, elder, or even a member.
The Lord Jesus said any man who looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery in his heart! I’m guilty - what about the bloke who condemns others like the Pharisees did? Let him who thinks he stands , take heed lest he fall! Beware of pride especially when you point the finger at anyone else!
Some sins are revealed and some are hidden from everyone, but God sees all sin whether revealed or hidden so I wouldn’t put too much judgement on sexual sin of others because according to the scripture in James chapter 2 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. It’s easy to judge a type of sin that you may not be committing yourselves, but we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Everyone sins differently when they fall short. “He who has no sin cast the first stone”
He must repent and spend time with Christ. After he recommit himself to Christ after sometime in sabbatical there’s a possibility to return. We need to extend grace and forgive.
Return into fellowship? Yes. Return as a pastor? Never! 1. Timothy 3,2 (ESV): Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach. Titus 1,7 (ESV): For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain.
David was a king not the religious leader. Samuel was. Why are you trying to justify why they should stay in ministry? You could read all the Bible verses on being an elder/deacon and this could have been done in 8 mins.
He didn't, he did read some of those scriptures and also pointed out that it's more important that any failed pastor should rejoice that he can still have his salvation after adulterous failure while being a leader vs wanting a position due to entitlement and teaching capacity. (I think of esau and the bowl of stew) But the intro was a bit slow to outright address the black and whiteness of yes or no. Personally in light of the texts I'm glad I was challenged to think about the specifics of who is committing what sin and in what position they are in regards to the church and the level of severity taken to address their sin even if they are repentant. (This topic would likely never be taught at the church im currently attending. Pastorship is a bit like a tight rope walk. If you fall off you fall off, you can't get back on, but when you hit the ground, you still go to Jesus and I think thats the MOST important concern at the heart of this. People who want position over purity, likely weren't of the fold to begin with...
Yes, you are disqualified from being in church leadership and ministry,, but you are not disqualified from being a Christian, nor a church member, if you truly repent and allow yourself to be held fully accountable until you could be trusted again. That's common sense, and I would not attend a church where the pastor had committed adultery. How could I trust him, fully? That's why God allows spouses to divorce when their spouse is unfaithful to them. How could they trust them again? Or at least, trust them fully? Trust is at the foundation of relationships. *It's crucial to remember that forgiveness, and trust, are two entirely different entities, altogether. They don't always go together.* Trust can be rebuilt, but it takes time and accountability. Sometimes trust never returns, if the person isn't committed to rebuilding it and being held fully accountable. It's a lot of hard work, but well-worth it. God's word does say a little something about restoring a truly repentant sinner, [...who was warned, beforehand, and had to be kicked out because they refused to repent]. They're to be put out of the congregation and it says to not even have a meal with them. Maybe encourage them to do right, whenever you see them, and pray for them, yes, but not to have a close friendship with them while they're living in besetting, sin. If they truly seem to repent, confess everything honestly ...then they can be allowed back into fellowship, with Bible counseling, but they have to be watched carefully, to be sure they are being honest. There should also be consistent communication with those who are closest to them, since they live with them. They should not be put into leadership of any kind, nor into ministry. I know two separate churches who gave very sinful, unrepentant men positions of leadership and/or ministries, to get them to come back to church, because they had left because their sins had been exposed by their spouses, to the pastor. That is insane. Those men never confessed, never repented, and I'm nearly 100% sure that neither one of them were born again / saved. Both were were terribly abusive narcissists. One was immediately installed as a treasurer, then put into childrens' ninistry with the head deacon's wife. Both of them were known to be chronically unfaithful to their spouses, for years. I'll bet you can guess what happened next? It wasn't long before they had an affair. When their spouses became upset and complained about it, the victim was attacked, the other, ignored. One family was destroyed and had to flee to another state, since the abuser had nothing to fear, with the church's backing , and with their family's backing. Their beautiful son ended up dieing tragically, in his 20s.
From these comments it’s clear to see why people stay away from church. You’d rather sinful people pretend they are perfect and probably maintain nonphysical romantic relationships. Better for the sinner to sin, repent, grow, and return as wiser, more grateful, and compassionate shepherd. Forgiveness is what it’s all about. Forgiveness with discernment. Clearly, watch the sinner for a long time to be sure of a change in heart, mind, and character.
The brother can go back to his relationship with God and grow and grace and love, he can be a better Christian and I think every royal brother wants that for him, but that does not mean that he returned for the ministry, he does not qualify anymore. It is not about despising the brother, nobody wins any of that. If anyone can prove with the Bible that they can return, I don't think there will be a real and honest brother who opposes, on the contrary, they would encourage him to do so.
@@LanLe-rz4lm Chapter and verse? Even if he had simply lusted in his heart for her - and not committed adultery - he would be guilty of sexual immorality and being unfaithful to his wife. Is that not sin in your eyes?
@@Ancient-Paths How is lusting in his heart for an UNmarried woman sexual immorality? NAME THE SIN; there is no such thing as a generic "sexual immorality"; every sex sin is named in the Torah; God left nothing out. What is specifically "Unfaithful to his wife" name the SIN or explain it so people know it when they see it. You just said it isn't adultery (wife-stealing). To help you; Jesus, talking to the Pharisees about "lusting after a woman in your heart is committing adultery", the Hebrew audience heard "woman" and "wife" as the same word. So they heard "whoso looks at a MARRIED WOMAN with lust..." NOT Unmarried. Our churches purposefully don't reveal this, but our pastors know. How would you desire a woman to take her as your wife if you didn't lust "have a strong desire" for her; the word isn't sinful in itself, it's the object of desire that makes it sinful.
@@LanLe-rz4lm Lusting after anyone - male or female is a sin - even if you never commit fornication. So in your world it is okay to lust after another person - if they are unmarried and you are married? Lust may not be a sin in your eyes ... but it is in God's .... just as anger can equate with murder. Are you saying all this to cover your own sin my friend?
The title of this and the question is stupid. The question isn’t should adultery permanently disqualify a pastor. The question is does the word of God state that adultery permanently disqualifies a pastor? If the answer to that question is yes, then it should. If the answer to that question is no, then it shouldn’t.
Most moral sin and financial impropriety in the church starts from a wrong understanding of doctrine. When we get our theology wrong .... we are open to moral failure. Steve Lawson promoted the unbiblical doctrine of Calvinism. But Calvinists need not worry .... Steve will still make it to heaven (if one of the 'elect') ... because he believed in the unbiblical POTS doctrine and double predestination. He could not really help falling into sin .... because he had been predestined to fall from grace by his sovereign God. That sounds harsh ... but heresy is harsh. Steve Lawson preached: “One of the distinguishing marks of a true Christian, and when I say a true Christian I mean not just one who goes to church, but has never been born again. I mean one who actually knows the Lord. One of the distinguishing marks is that he regularly confesses his sin to God. An authentic believer has an acute awareness of sin in his own life because he has an acute awareness of the holiness of God. Rather than being blind to his sin, he is convicted by his sin and he confesses his sin with humble contrition.” So, maybe Steve was never saved to begin with! He has, so far, refused to repent. Since he was never a pastor, elder, or even member of Trinity Bible Church - there is no accountability on his part .... and the church cannot impose any church discipline. We must pray that he truly repents of his doctrine and sinful lifestyle - and becomes truly 'born again.'
Truth💯 Ancient Paths~ You said it perfectly! If he is not truly born again, spirit filled, I pray he finds Jesus in the fallout. That’s all of our destination’s that is the most important of our entire livelihoods. Not being in Christian leadership. What a joke it has become in this age. God will not be mocked🔥🔥
@@karinteeples9715 Amen. Anyone can preach an appealing sermon (especially if it stems from false doctrine) but it takes the Spirit of God to produce a moral and God-fearing lifestyle.
No but he wasn't the same man afterwards and his authority was greatly diminished. If we are going to let fornicators return to being a preacher or pastor, we are in trouble. Where are our standards.
@@michaeloverd1965 Yes friend but the point of justin peters was if a pastor falls in this he cannot become a pastor ever again. He presented no scriputure to defend it becouse it does not exist he is basing it by his own standard. Im not saying that ge would be a ministry again after 3 or 3 years or something, but dont you think its an error to say he wont be a minister again just like justin peters said???
He suffered greatly tho’. He had severe punishment brought upon himself and suffered under Gods’ discipline for his sinful actions. Consequences should absolutely be part of the equation if sexual sin or any sin is in a leaders life. Stepping down is not punishment, but an opportunity to find Jesus authentically.
David was not a pastor, he was a king. He wasn’t shepherding the flock. He was essentially the “president” of their government. Do you look to President Biden or President Trump for Scriptural guidance and teaching? “Above reproach” is the qualifier for pastors. Once caught in sexual sin, a pastor is never again “above reproach.”
@@thesuzefla "he wasn't shepherding"?? 2 Samual 5:2, Psalm 78:72, Ezekiel 34:23 (has Messianic implications but still) and many others clear portray the leaders of the people as shepherds of the flock of Yahweh.
Man "cannot" see a person's heart! ONLY God sees the heart! Man only sees the outside! (1 Samuel ) Christians are susceptible to temptation, sin, going astray! The Bible says in the New Testament, "Restore a fallen brother/sister with meekness, but warns to be careful and not fall into the same sin" (paraphrasing). I can't remember the chapter & book.
To answer the question on your title, YES. The Bible was clear about the beyond reproach character of a pastor/overseer. It’s the highest, sacred calling for a Christian leader, a continuation of Jesus’ ministry role in His church. It that’s why Jesus asked Peter 3 times, do you love me? Feed my sheep. Love for the Lord makes you deny yourself and pursue His calling. Our patriarchs died, swan in 2, cooked in oil, beheaded for Christ and His church. If a pastor fell for adulterous relationship, our partiarch could be laughing right now for what makes modern day preachers fall for. So yes, no longer qualified for pastoral. The Lord will raise more faithful men don’t worry. He is cleansing His church to ready for His return. For His name’s sake.
As an aside thought, I am far more disturbed by the sins I have committed after having come to Christ than those I committed beforehand, because when I sin as a believer I sin against such great light and against such great goodness.
Same here as well.
😢I am one of them 😢
Well said brother....and ditto.
That’s because you belong to Christ and you are broken when you let him down.
Sin bad God good
Not from all ministry but yes he should love Christ enough to step away from pastoral duties ❤
Leaders among the body of Christ must be blameless.
Being a pastor is a privilege and responsibility not a requirement for salvation. If you fail in leadership in this way you should be demoted to believer alone. Forgiven after repentance and restored to fellowship alone.
I dont know I'd demoted is the a proper term. It is like marriage, it is a blessing, a calling, but if you sin, you may lose it. Pastors aren't necessarily above us.
But, i 100% agree with you on your point!!
If a person is truly saved I don't mean self-deceived they can't lose it. Repent and turn away!
It’s great hearing these teachings again! Thank you Pastor Conway for applying the Word of truth and handling it accurately. Thank you also to all who help with the I’ll be honest page and making it possible for us to hear
Adrian Rogers used to always say that whenever he’d hear someone remark about a fallen pastor “well look at far he fell”. Adrian would always say “you don’t know how low he was living”. And that is so true. He may have made so many secret compromises, that the public fall wasn’t a surprise
Steve Lawson never fell, as he was with an UNmarried woman. There was NO adultery involved. Those who rebuked him are the ones in error.
If he’s fallen, and can no longer pastor, then Moses, and most of the patriarchs, who actually WROTE Scripture and who had more than one wife, would also not allowed in the pews, and would be seen as living in sin.
True Believers are NOT to sleep ( fornicate) with anyone outside of marriage. He was being sexually immoral by Gods law. He must step down.
@@karinteeples9715 What Chapter and Verse of God's Law defines fornication as "sleeping with someone (generic) outside of marriage"? And who said that Steve Lawson was doing so, instead of simply taking an extra wife or concubine/lover as the Law tells men how to do?
I believe any 'shepherd' can be forgiven but not restored to his position. I know of a pastor who was removed from his position when it was found out he was gambling. He would not repent as he could not see that he had broken any command. I don't think a sexual sin is the only sin that disqualifies a 'shepherd'. Too many leaders are being allowed to return to a leadership position these days. There is obviously little fear of God or desire for holiness in the church at large today. Compromise is killing the church.
Thank you for this study on should adultery disqualify pastors and also other issues that could disqualify a pastor or member.
Thank you brother for a reminder to keep a checklist for ourselves and others whether we are spending time in our daily devotions,when did we watch porn or obscene pop up on the phone or on TV last, how long have we continued in a particular sin and that needs to be corrected or publicly rebuked.
It is a gradual decay at the roots that makes a tree fall and surely great is it's fall.
Thank you for the pointers for restoration and how soon does it need to be done keeping in mind a little leaven can leaven the whole lump.
A pastor can be restored to faith by the church but once a pastor sins in those ways, they may never hold that office again. They have been corrupted and compromised.
And we never want to see their face on the pulpit again.
@BillBiggs1 Yup.
"MUST BE BEYOND REPROACH" LEAVES =NO= WIGGLE ROOM. PERIOD.
JUSTIN PETERS IS RIGHT!
Did David when fall never went back to ministry?
@@jaybjay4121David committed adultery (wife-stealing), Steve Lawson did Not, as the woman was UNmarried. But yes, David continued to write scripture. Forgiveness makes us clean; this is an attempt to punish men to obey a forced monogamy only false doctrine of Roman Catholicism.
@@LanLe-rz4lmso what?? He was fornicating with an unwed
Woman. Outside of marriage. He was
Disobedient to Gods law. Not yours. 🤦♀️😱
@@karinteeples9715 Where did I refer to 'my" law? Where does the law refer to what a man does who sleeps with an unwed woman, and where does it call it "fornication"; Chapter and verse. And how is this different than the Law telling a man how to take another wife or concubine/half-wife.
16:45 that story is terrifying to me. Nothing even happened and the church wasn't able to look at him the same. That says a lot.
That just shows how important it is for an elder to meet the requirements of 1Timothy 3. The problem that arises is when that man begins to preach to the congregation, especially texts that involve godliness, purity, self control etc.. the people will be asking themselves “Is our Pastor living this out or not?”
Which in return, tends to get us to think about the Pastors faithfulness instead of examining our own hearts in the light of the scripture.
Hope this helps!
@RyanJDeacon I think what makes it difficult is the fact that he actually displayed purity and godliness by cutting it off, confessing, and forsaking it before it became anything more. For me that'd give me more confidence and more trust knowing that the pastors and elders are that transparent and serious about sin. Serves as a reminder that we're all human, all susceptible to sin, including leaders. I think this is one of many topics that the church has allowed to become taboo and blurry when it should be plain and simple. Your pastor and elders are weak, fallible men, simultaneously just and sinner, just like you and everybody else in the church. They're just in a higher position of authority and have a more vocal gifting. This unfortunately doesn't get reiterated enough and people's perception of pastors/elders is often one of thinking they're invincible and supposed to be perfect when none of us are. It's extremely unfortunate that the congregation handled it poorly.
But spot on with that assessment. When we think of those qualifications we should all be examining ourselves too and not merely scrutinizing leaders.
@@davidbassjr.7909well said, David. It’s definitely a tender issue. But, all the more reason to pray for those who are in leadership over us in the Lord.
Tread softly in assuming outside the Holy Scriptures....that man was teaching and preaching against adultery and wickedness and yet doing it himself with what I would consider a child compared to their age difference. So, please tell me how anyone could sit under him again and not only believe his word bt trust him again? Sadly, he once had a great testimony or witness of a Godly life EVEN WHILE COMMITTING ADULTERY! PEOPLE CAN ACT IT IS CALLED HYPOCRISY!
Amen!
Well put, thanks.
The bible is clear on addressing sin in leadership, even if it doesn’t address sexual sin explicitly, so there is a guide for removal, and restoration after a time
Yes he's disqualified, he is now not above reproach
How on earth can a leader return to leadership if he is a fornicator? This is no small matter! Staggering that it's even a question.
It is staggering. However, reality has shown us that there is a reckoning with Christian leaders and their true inner belief systems. So many are wolves, and need to be revealed and then I pray they find Jesus authentically and pursue relationship with Him. Leadership in churches today, is continually changing and not for the better,. The question should be: are they wolves needing salvation or just morally weak? Either way they need to step down. Not as punishment, but as a way to truly find Him. 🔥
The Old Testament says adultery is punishable by stoning.
Well look at this way ...
If a Pastor commits sexual sin and then is allowed to continue in their position of leadership - How can they then turn around and preach sexual purity to their members?
... Not to mention, how can they chastise other leaders within their church who are also caught in sexual sin? ... They can't.... Because their accountability, credibility, and trust have all been broken as permanent consequence of their sin....
Yes, spiritually they can still receive grace and forgiveness through Jesus Christ but does not alleviate the responsibility of the church to deal with transgression according to what scripture calls for. Allowing a leader who is caught in sexual sin to continue in leadership clearly goes against the standard of conduct that scripture requires. It shows poor stewardship, lack of self-control, apathy towards biblical mandates, and that the church does not take sin seriously or hold their leaders accountable. It cultivates a spirit of hypocrisy and is just a bad idea all around. We have to remember that Leaders are held to a higher standard of conduct than lay members. They agree to this oath at the time of ordination and should never be taken lightly.
For how long does this apply.
Before I even listen I’ll say yes, then I’ll listen
Read the Bible and pray first... then answer.
@ duh I’ve done done that I’ve had my opinion on this for about 40 yrs, there’ is no answer but what the Bible says
He betrayed his position of trust. However His not disqualified from Christ. And yes the bible says........he must be a man of one wife.
Everyone betrays their position of trust when they sin against God whether sexual or not because we all make up the body of Christ
As brethren we are supposed to be one body and when one part is affected then we should all be affected and help those who have fallen to be restored, not judge them by making them feel guilty and not able to move forward. Would you do that to your own child? Not give them a second chance? That’s not the God I serve. If we as parents love our children and give them chances then God who is greater in mercy has given us much grace
Pastor Tim, you are so right when it comes to forgiveness and trust. It really irritates me when I hear some Christians associate these two things together as being the same
To answer the question on your title, YES. The Bible was clear about the beyond reproach character of a pastor/overseer.
It’s the highest, sacred calling for a Christian leader, a continuation of Jesus’ ministry role in His church. It that’s why Jesus asked Peter 3 times, do you love me? Feed my sheep. Love for the Lord makes you deny yourself and pursue His calling. Our patriarchs died, swan in 2, cooked in oil, beheaded for Christ and His church. If a pastor fell for adulterous relationship, our partiarch could be laughing right now for what makes modern day preachers fall for.
So yes, no longer qualified for pastoral. The Lord will raise more faithful men don’t worry. He is cleansing His church to ready for His return. For His name’s sake.
8:02 Proverbs 6: 32-33 I would say it is different and permanent. If unrepentant (or only verbally repentant), it proves a false profession of faith; if repentant, I still say it permanently disqualifies an individual from pastoral ministry
Romans 11:29 "for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." I don't know if could answer this question
It's a difficult one, but Paul himself seemed to be aware of the dangers of sexual immorality and being disqualified:
1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
God bless you brother Tim.....
No one is perfect? What was the purpose of Christ to come then. The greatest example is King David. Yes we must use much discernment in every situation.
David lived in Old Covenant before Jesus Christ, before the Holy Spirit dwelling in man, so God didn’t expect from David what He expect from New Covenant person.
Have you ever read did someone in New Testament fall into adultery?
Peter, James, John, Paul…?
Whom more is given, more is required.
@milandejanovic7872 David did have the Holy Spirit.
@@anthonysholars4782 David was a King, not a pastor. David was the King of the people of Israel. The church is not the same as the people of Israel, just as the ministry of a pastor is not the same as being a King. We cannot make that inference. The main purpose to come to Christ is salvation from hell. It is the eternity which it the main important thing.
@milandejanovic7872 it doesn't matter. David was under the same commandments as we are in terms of adultery. God is the same yesterday, today, and foever.
Nothing in scripture that says committing adultery permanently disqualifies a pastor. What ends up happening is good men get thrown out, but even looking with lust is adultery, and many pastors are looking at pornography according to studies, but they won't repent and are never caught.
To the person allowing their phone or whatever to ring for that long during a recorded message is beyond embarassing. How hard is it really, to put your device on silent, or turn it off altogether? How important was this message to you that you interrupted it with your selfishness?
If a man was involved in sexual sin before entering pastoral ministry, and some people knew about it. Or he went through church discipline and was restored to church after going through the restoration or counseling process, and it's now 7/8 years back or 10 years back but it's still in people's memories, will it disqualify him to enter the office of an elder? Full-time pastorate for that matter. Will that not disqualify him? Please help. 🙏👍. Someone who is seeking to be an elder, i am not talking about a person who has been in the office, i am talking about someone who has never been an elder of the church before. Thanks.
Unequivocally Yes! Disqualified if done after confessing being saved.
Yes.
Amen
Yes!
Yes. Lawson was deceiving the Church and mocking God in living a double life. He never was a member at Trinity Bible Church. Lawson needs to repent asap and then return into fellowship. Otherwise he is risking his salvation.
God said he takes the plans of the enemy and turns them around for our good ;he now has a different testimony so his mission is changed .he can still work for God but not as a leader he could be a personal evangelist like i am but not his previous position
Not as a Calvinist who believed in the POTS doctrine and double predestination. God may have predestined him to fall from grace ....
that contradicts eternal life ,repent and believe the promises of God ,nowhere does the bible say a born again believer can lose salvation
@@chrisarmstrong3200 Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ said so in John 15:1-10 and the apostle Paul reiterated this in Romans 11:17-22. I could then say - repent and believe the warnings of Jesus and Paul.
Flee from youthful lusts - 2nd Timothy 2:22.
Yes the Bible gives examples. Titus literally the book/ epistle of Titus
Timothy 3.. Titus!!!! The whole new testament!!!! You as a pastor once saved are to be an example. Paul tells pastors that they will be held to a regard! They will be judged harder! You are sheparding a flock! Ministering to lost souls! You can't then stand and just disregard what the qualifications are to become any kind of elder in the church! Yes he is disqualified! Sexual sins are categorized as a personal assault. He should have fled lust! Flee temptation is that not what scriptures say? Then how could he be a pastor or teacher when he kept it quiet and sinned of the flesh Yes he repented I praise the Lord our God for this. But read actually read the Bible know it. If you have to ask this question I have to ask the question are you yourself even saved? What you say sounds as though you are blind. And the blind cannot see meaning are you actually saved trying to make excuses for what God gave us the list of qualifications? Are you higher than God? Is your own opinion or view higher than Him who gave us them to follow? I think no i know not! Please examine yourself in the Lord Jesus! He gave us the Gospel so that we may know!!!!
I remember when reading John, and a lady was caught committing adultery by the Pharisees, and they spoke to Jesus Christ about a woman who committed adultery, and the Pharisees wanted to stone her. Then Jesus Christ said “whoever is without any sin, let him be the one to cast the first stone.” After he told the Pharisees that, they were cut to the conscience and left. And Jesus Christ told the woman who committed adultery “go, and sin no more,” and Jesus Christ forgave her for committing adultery. That right their just proves that God can forgive others for committing adultery.
Yes, God can forgive anyone of anything .... if they are truly willing to repent. However, there is a difference in the way God (and the Church) deals with a pastor and his ministry. Steve Lawson has (so far) not repented of his adultery, and cannot be disciplined by his former church - because he was never a pastor, elder, or even a member.
Blessings,🌿
❤️🔥
Dude, their are pastors out their that committed adultery, and they haven’t got caught yet!
Many.🤔🤫
The Lord Jesus said any man who looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery in his heart!
I’m guilty - what about the bloke who condemns others like the Pharisees did?
Let him who thinks he stands , take heed lest he fall! Beware of pride especially when you point the finger at anyone else!
Of course
Some sins are revealed and some are hidden from everyone, but God sees all sin whether revealed or hidden so I wouldn’t put too much judgement on sexual sin of others because according to the scripture in James chapter 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
It’s easy to judge a type of sin that you may not be committing yourselves, but we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Everyone sins differently when they fall short. “He who has no sin cast the first stone”
Some guy I use to talked to said that Paul Washer and Tim Conway has a religious spirit.
What about those that have not been caught . Looking at a woman with lust is equal to adultery
He must repent and spend time with Christ. After he recommit himself to Christ after sometime in sabbatical there’s a possibility to return. We need to extend grace and forgive.
Return into fellowship? Yes. Return as a pastor? Never!
1. Timothy 3,2 (ESV): Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach.
Titus 1,7 (ESV): For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain.
Nope, there is no place in the Bible that said that.
Reading some of the comments and wondering if we're so critical in assessing ourselves🤔.. also David didn't write Psalm 51 for the same sin?..
David was a king, not a pastor.
The Bible says that elders should be “above reproach”.
Would you restore a Sunday school teacher who was found quilty of child abused while teaching. They can return to fellowship but not teach.
David was a king not the religious leader. Samuel was. Why are you trying to justify why they should stay in ministry? You could read all the Bible verses on being an elder/deacon and this could have been done in 8 mins.
He didn't, he did read some of those scriptures and also pointed out that it's more important that any failed pastor should rejoice that he can still have his salvation after adulterous failure while being a leader vs wanting a position due to entitlement and teaching capacity. (I think of esau and the bowl of stew)
But the intro was a bit slow to outright address the black and whiteness of yes or no.
Personally in light of the texts I'm glad I was challenged to think about the specifics of who is committing what sin and in what position they are in regards to the church and the level of severity taken to address their sin even if they are repentant. (This topic would likely never be taught at the church im currently attending.
Pastorship is a bit like a tight rope walk. If you fall off you fall off, you can't get back on, but when you hit the ground, you still go to Jesus and I think thats the MOST important concern at the heart of this.
People who want position over purity, likely weren't of the fold to begin with...
Define shipwrecking one's faith. Can a man be recovered after shipwreck?
I'd say no way back to Leadership.
Yes, you are disqualified from being in church leadership and ministry,, but you are not disqualified from being a Christian, nor a church member, if you truly repent and allow yourself to be held fully accountable until you could be trusted again. That's common sense, and I would not attend a church where the pastor had committed adultery. How could I trust him, fully? That's why God allows spouses to divorce when their spouse is unfaithful to them. How could they trust them again? Or at least, trust them fully? Trust is at the foundation of relationships.
*It's crucial to remember that forgiveness, and trust, are two entirely different entities, altogether. They don't always go together.* Trust can be rebuilt, but it takes time and accountability. Sometimes trust never returns, if the person isn't committed to rebuilding it and being held fully accountable. It's a lot of hard work, but well-worth it.
God's word does say a little something about restoring a truly repentant sinner, [...who was warned, beforehand, and had to be kicked out because they refused to repent]. They're to be put out of the congregation and it says to not even have a meal with them. Maybe encourage them to do right, whenever you see them, and pray for them, yes, but not to have a close friendship with them while they're living in besetting, sin. If they truly seem to repent, confess everything honestly ...then they can be allowed back into fellowship, with Bible counseling, but they have to be watched carefully, to be sure they are being honest. There should also be consistent communication with those who are closest to them, since they live with them. They should not be put into leadership of any kind, nor into ministry.
I know two separate churches who gave very sinful, unrepentant men positions of leadership and/or ministries, to get them to come back to church, because they had left because their sins had been exposed by their spouses, to the pastor. That is insane. Those men never confessed, never repented, and I'm nearly 100% sure that neither one of them were born again / saved. Both were were terribly abusive narcissists.
One was immediately installed as a treasurer, then put into childrens' ninistry with the head deacon's wife. Both of them were known to be chronically unfaithful to their spouses, for years. I'll bet you can guess what happened next? It wasn't long before they had an affair. When their spouses became upset and complained about it, the victim was attacked, the other, ignored. One family was destroyed and had to flee to another state, since the abuser had nothing to fear, with the church's backing , and with their family's backing. Their beautiful son ended up dieing tragically, in his 20s.
From these comments it’s clear to see why people stay away from church. You’d rather sinful people pretend they are perfect and probably maintain nonphysical romantic relationships. Better for the sinner to sin, repent, grow, and return as wiser, more grateful, and compassionate shepherd.
Forgiveness is what it’s all about. Forgiveness with discernment. Clearly, watch the sinner for a long time to be sure of a change in heart, mind, and character.
The brother can go back to his relationship with God and grow and grace and love, he can be a better Christian and I think every royal brother wants that for him, but that does not mean that he returned for the ministry, he does not qualify anymore. It is not about despising the brother, nobody wins any of that. If anyone can prove with the Bible that they can return, I don't think there will be a real and honest brother who opposes, on the contrary, they would encourage him to do so.
Steve Lawson did not sin; the woman was UNmarried, which in the Bible makes her free to be with any man, whether he be married or unmarried.
@@LanLe-rz4lm Chapter and verse? Even if he had simply lusted in his heart for her - and not committed adultery - he would be guilty of sexual immorality and being unfaithful to his wife. Is that not sin in your eyes?
@@Ancient-Paths How is lusting in his heart for an UNmarried woman sexual immorality? NAME THE SIN; there is no such thing as a generic "sexual immorality"; every sex sin is named in the Torah; God left nothing out. What is specifically "Unfaithful to his wife" name the SIN or explain it so people know it when they see it.
You just said it isn't adultery (wife-stealing). To help you; Jesus, talking to the Pharisees about "lusting after a woman in your heart is committing adultery", the Hebrew audience heard "woman" and "wife" as the same word. So they heard "whoso looks at a MARRIED WOMAN with lust..." NOT Unmarried.
Our churches purposefully don't reveal this, but our pastors know. How would you desire a woman to take her as your wife if you didn't lust "have a strong desire" for her; the word isn't sinful in itself, it's the object of desire that makes it sinful.
@@LanLe-rz4lm Lusting after anyone - male or female is a sin - even if you never commit fornication. So in your world it is okay to lust after another person - if they are unmarried and you are married?
Lust may not be a sin in your eyes ... but it is in God's .... just as anger can equate with murder.
Are you saying all this to cover your own sin my friend?
How do i send a question for ask pastor tim?
You can email questions@illbehonest.com
@illbehonest thanks so much
tim, you havnt aged a bit for the last 10-15 years when I first listening to you.
Should David have been disqualified from being king?
The difference is David was a king, not a pastor.
The title of this and the question is stupid. The question isn’t should adultery permanently disqualify a pastor. The question is does the word of God state that adultery permanently disqualifies a pastor? If the answer to that question is yes, then it should. If the answer to that question is no, then it shouldn’t.
Most moral sin and financial impropriety in the church starts from a wrong understanding of doctrine. When we get our theology wrong .... we are open to moral failure. Steve Lawson promoted the unbiblical doctrine of Calvinism.
But Calvinists need not worry .... Steve will still make it to heaven (if one of the 'elect') ... because he believed in the unbiblical POTS doctrine and double predestination. He could not really help falling into sin .... because he had been predestined to fall from grace by his sovereign God. That sounds harsh ... but heresy is harsh.
Steve Lawson preached:
“One of the distinguishing marks of a true Christian, and when I say a true Christian I mean not just one who goes to church, but has never been born again. I mean one who actually knows the Lord. One of the distinguishing marks is that he regularly confesses his sin to God. An authentic believer has an acute awareness of sin in his own life because he has an acute awareness of the holiness of God. Rather than being blind to his sin, he is convicted by his sin and he confesses his sin with humble contrition.”
So, maybe Steve was never saved to begin with! He has, so far, refused to repent. Since he was never a pastor, elder, or even member of Trinity Bible Church - there is no accountability on his part .... and the church cannot impose any church discipline. We must pray that he truly repents of his doctrine and sinful lifestyle - and becomes truly 'born again.'
Who says Steve sinned? wasn’t he with an UNmarried woman?
Truth💯 Ancient Paths~ You said it perfectly! If he is not truly born again, spirit filled, I pray he finds Jesus in the fallout. That’s all of our destination’s that is the most important of our entire livelihoods. Not being in Christian leadership. What a joke it has become in this age. God will not be mocked🔥🔥
@@karinteeples9715 Amen. Anyone can preach an appealing sermon (especially if it stems from false doctrine) but it takes the Spirit of God to produce a moral and God-fearing lifestyle.
Pastor Tim sometimes starts sentences and then breaks up. That can be distracting sometimes.
Study Titus
Of course, no question.
My gosh, theories of quantum physics are simpler than this…
Why have pastors!
The good shepherd leads his flock!
Was David done when he did fall?
Did he stop being a King.???
No but he wasn't the same man afterwards and his authority was greatly diminished. If we are going to let fornicators return to being a preacher or pastor, we are in trouble. Where are our standards.
@@michaeloverd1965 Yes friend but the point of justin peters was if a pastor falls in this he cannot become a pastor ever again.
He presented no scriputure to defend it becouse it does not exist he is basing it by his own standard.
Im not saying that ge would be a ministry again after 3 or 3 years or something, but dont you think its an error to say he wont be a minister again just like justin peters said???
He suffered greatly tho’. He had severe punishment brought upon himself and suffered under Gods’ discipline for his sinful actions. Consequences should absolutely be part of the equation if sexual sin or any sin is in a leaders life. Stepping down is not punishment, but an opportunity to find Jesus authentically.
David was not a pastor, he was a king. He wasn’t shepherding the flock. He was essentially the “president” of their government. Do you look to President Biden or President Trump for Scriptural guidance and teaching? “Above reproach” is the qualifier for pastors. Once caught in sexual sin, a pastor is never again “above reproach.”
@@thesuzefla "he wasn't shepherding"?? 2 Samual 5:2, Psalm 78:72, Ezekiel 34:23 (has Messianic implications but still) and many others clear portray the leaders of the people as shepherds of the flock of Yahweh.
Man "cannot" see a person's heart! ONLY God sees the heart! Man only sees the outside! (1 Samuel ) Christians are susceptible to temptation, sin, going astray! The Bible says in the New Testament, "Restore a fallen brother/sister with meekness, but warns to be careful and not fall into the same sin" (paraphrasing). I can't remember the chapter & book.
To answer the question on your title, YES. The Bible was clear about the beyond reproach character of a pastor/overseer.
It’s the highest, sacred calling for a Christian leader, a continuation of Jesus’ ministry role in His church. It that’s why Jesus asked Peter 3 times, do you love me? Feed my sheep. Love for the Lord makes you deny yourself and pursue His calling. Our patriarchs died, swan in 2, cooked in oil, beheaded for Christ and His church. If a pastor fell for adulterous relationship, our partiarch could be laughing right now for what makes modern day preachers fall for.
So yes, no longer qualified for pastoral. The Lord will raise more faithful men don’t worry. He is cleansing His church to ready for His return. For His name’s sake.