I may have told you previously but between your videos and F-Class John's, you've dispelled many myths and misconceptions, when it comes to handloading rife ammo. Your videos have really helped me understand the process. Please keep posting these types of videos. Thanks so much.
Annealing is intended to release the built up tensions that are inside the brass from the working of the metal. Its purpose is to reduce the work fatigue and increase the ductility of the case metal. Over heating can burn off some of the zinc and leave the bronze. This can make the case both harder and more brittle. That is why the PSI increased for the cases that were heated longer. What you will find is that those cases are now more brittle and are likely to fail much earlier than the other cases that have not been "burned".
@mikeaxe1 Bronze and Brass are both made from copper, I think Terry's point was that when you burn out the zinc by overheating, what you're left with is no longer brass.
You can't burn out the zinc....brass is an alloy of two metals. If you over heat it, it will melt and turn to liquid, but it will still be brass. The two metals do not separate from each other no matter how much you heat them.
@@stevelessard6216 you can definitely burn out the zinc smarty pants, it melts at a lower temperature than copper, Do some more research before you fancy yourself an expert.
Started "annealing" my brass, 7BR, years ago with a torch. Found plans on Accurate Shooter for an induction annealer and built one. After reading through page after page of comments and observations like Eriks. I now do not fully anneal but rather normalize, i.e. I don't heat to annealing temps but just short of it, why run something at redline everytime, after every firing. Literally takes 15-20 minutes to run 120 pcs from getting the machine out and putting it away. Interesting results Erik, thanks for adding to the knowledge base! Wasn't subscribed but am now.
Hey alright, another member of the Ginaerick club! I've also built a version of the "GinaErick Induction Annealer". Great for those that want the functionality of induction, but with a DIY twist. Highly recommend people seek that thread out. Lots of information.
Man this is awesome. You realize if they all shoot good than you have disrupted an entire industry built on a high dollar annealer to anneal perfect everytime
I use that same annealer. Used tempilaq to establish my cutoff times for each of the rounds I reload, 308, 223, 338LM, 6.5 cm. Range is from about 3 to 4 seconds for 223; 4 to 5 sec. 308; and 5 to 6 for 338, roughly. Ambient temps dictate variations, but these times work very well for me, & my brass has lasted me for many reloads. Primer pockets wear out and case heads will of course wear out, too, but notwithstanding normal wear, annealing breathes new life into my cases. Process: shoot, deprime, clean, anneal, lube n resize, trim, clean again, then load. Works great! Thanks Eric for the great vids.
Agree about keeping the base of brass good. However, when I was shooting HiPower rifle with an M1 Garland in 30-06 using national match brass, I started having case separation. I had loaded them too many times. My mentor, an old Army armored told me to sharpen the end of a short piece of coat hanger and bend the sharp end up so it will fit in the neck. After cleaning the brass he said to use the coat hanger to feel from the bottom along the wall. If you feel a little hang or gap, throw that case away. I did that cut a couple of the cases in half and saw a ring on the inside of the cases where after sizing too many times the case was starting to separate and get to thin for extraction. When you can’t feel a gap. They were Ok. Some say throw away after X number of reloads. I found I got a lot more loads using this method.
@The94GTC You can't really just " Shoulder-bump" in autoloaders, especially M1 and M1-A style rigs. You need Guaranteed functioning for every round. A little slop is kinda just the way things are.
The major purpose of dropping annealed brass in water is not “quenching”. It doesn’t. It’s for ease of handling. It cools the brass quickly enough to be friendly to handle. My little experience annealing brass manually indicated that, unless you destroyed the brass by grossly “overcooking” it with a torch (yes, it’s possible), when it is fired and resized the brass returns to a fairly consistent state.
I think the tension depends a lot on how much the annealing process burns the soot inside the neck. My humble experience has shown that if gunpowder soot burns more than burning, the tension is stronger. That’s why I sometimes use dry lube before seating bullets. It pretty much helps for more consistency. My english is not very good, (google translate) i hope you understand what i mean...
I think the necks all fully annealed on all 3 so the tension was the same. The difference is that the annealing went farther down the case with the longer times, which allows the brass to expand more in the chamber, which might cause issues with holding pressure, brass life, extraction and loose primer pockets after firing. We want the head around the primer to be hard so it holds up.
If you look at Military 5.56 ammunition the heat marks are similar to the 20 seconds of annealing. Reminder military brass is always shreded and sold for scrap never reloaded.
I´m annealing about 500 cases every time. So, if I drop it dry, it heats the whole bunch up and I had in fact overheated cases because of that. That´s why I´m quenching them in a big bucket full of water, and the water gets pretty warm by that.
At a first try at annealing, I overheated the cases, not realising that the bases shouldn't be annealed. The primers wouldn't seat properly! They formed a ridge in the soft primer pocket and wouldn't go all the way in and I had to decap live primers to get them out of the shell carrier. Another good reason to limit the heat to the neck area. You live and learn! Mike M.
I think the brass only gets to a certain hardness and it won't get any softer no matter how long you heat it. The only difference is how far down the brass the heat transfers. Obviously once it gets to the head, it's ruined. But if you anneal it standing in water, the heat won't get under the waterline. So you can heat it for as long as you want (until the water boils away) and it shouldn't affect the neck tension. The water quench is only an added benefit for cooling.
I lube with STP. Many years ago (in the 1970s) I used RCBS lube and it so closely resembled STP polymer that I switched to STP forever. It requires a little extra wiping off maybe but I use brass from the machine gun range and it needs a lot of force to size. Never stuck a case with STP. Trim and deburr, then de-crimp, then polish with stainless steel media and Dawn liquid with a dash of citric acid. Makes good ball ammo. If I anneal it will always be just the mouth and with water quench. Too much will make them stretch.
I would have expected the longer you anneal the softer it would get. An interesting test would have been do have a set of brass that you did not anneal as a baseline to compare to. Also we didn't see the 5 second I think you indicated you normally anneal to. I have a single torch and will anneal until I just turn the neck red and then it drops out. Right now I have 25 firings on one set of .308 Lapua brass. I attribute that to the annealing. Thanks for sharing this Erik.
Working brass is more of a normalization than annealing process. Back in the day we only had a torch and with practice you could get really consistent results. But back then we didn't have gauges on our seaters tho. I would spend weeks forming ppc brass and have tried everything to salvage bad ones. I have successfully annealed brass that was hardened by over heating. We have an oven at work heat treating steel and you can look up the temp over time profile for different materials and set up the oven accordingly.
Hello Eric. I’m not going to waste your time with what I’ve done or how long I’ve been doing it. I would like to compliment you on your outside of the box thinking because that is were innovation comes from. I would also like to complement you on providing the information of what you do for competition, for younger generations. I’m sure the guys give you a little bit of a hard time. With what is at risk within our country right now, I believe what we need are more ambassadors for shooting sports and really the full measure of firearms. Well done, and keep going. Even I have observed a thing or two. Cheers.
first time i annealed, (25yrs ago) i had a 257 weatherby rebarreld to 257 arnold for a bit hotter round,, long story,, i annealed "by color" & ruined ~ 20 cases... i loaded the ammo & later when i opened up my ammo box,, all the bullets had fallen down into the brass on top of the powder! i didn't anneal anything for a few yrs until i competed in benchrest & bought an annealer,, it used 2 flames that were seperated a bit , & a rotating wheel for different calibers.. & it worked just fine! they were rare then before prs ect. (i had to sell it because of being out of work a few yrs back). there are several good decent priced machines now though.. i expect the induction machine is primo... if you don't anneal,, the shoulder bump will end up not bumping back with the same die adjustment. & real neck tension will not be what it was just a few shots back.. (my manual presses never had the problem you demonstrated when you first started sizing!! ;>) that is a cool machine you have there!! i would think the over annealed "bumps" would be identical. as the soft brass should push back & stay there? (it did) i bet the actual neck tension varied as more for lower time and less real tension for longer anneal assuming the brass actually got softer.. i remember reading quit when the brass gets "cherry red".. & i guess i didn't have a good eye for it.. i think i had it in the flame a lot longer than you did though!!
Very true. Anyone that has had to get a stick of brass out of a chamber that has separated will understand completely... I have been there and it sucks lol
Kind of looked like the 10 sec was the softest with seating pressure going up after that. Some hardening with overheating maybe? Your videos always getting me thinking about so many other tests i end up researching on the net for hours. Hope to see you on the firing line one day brother. Thanks again for your time and effort
Most definitely. Can’t see what’s happening at a molecular level, but would appear the 15-20 second annealed brass is harder then the 10 sec. Over annealed.
The brass must be rapidly quenched in a bath of water while still glowing red. If it is allowed to cool in air, then the brass is not properly annealed. Quench rates have an integral effect on metal microstructures. This is a critical step, THE MOST CRITICAL.
@@supra60 This is wildly inaccurate. Anyone who has done any actual testing of brass annealing will tell you that quenching brass after annealing will only result in wet brass.
When I was 16 and first started reloading (58yrs ago), I read about annealing. So, I tried it. However, I must have missed the part where you only anneal the neck/shoulder area. It locked up my Savage model 99 solid, and gave me a perfect cast of the chamber, flowing so as to make a rimmed cartridge.
Hi Eric After I size F/L size with expander ball and seat bullet. I use a neck die with a bushing I have reamed for the OD of the neck I calculated. It makes the wall thickness consistent to that bullet. When you run it half way down the neck (just for inspection) you can see it massaging the brass and can see the difference of how much brass is being moved from one side to the other. What it did for SD was impressive. I was neck turning before. This method to me was way more consistent. I don't have the rifles you have or reloading equipment to do a video on it. Maybe this is some thing you mite be interested in doing a video on. Harold
I believe the ultimate goal is to develop a process which allows repeatable and consistent results in terms of bullet velocity. Whether it be anneal for 10, 15, or 20 seconds, the neck brass is now ductile which allows it to stretch to insure proper bullet grip. Work hardened brass requires quite a bit more force to expand thus creating higher retention force. This will also require more internal pressure resulting in higher velocities which changes the impact point down range. I don't believe we as shooters are looking for a specific hardness but rather consistent neck tension which correlates more uniform velocities which allows us to predict downrange performance. While there will always be differences or variables, it's up to us to determine if they're meaningful. With the seating pressure device, Erik proves heating the necks for 10, 15, and 20 seconds doesn't have an meaningful impact on bullet seating force. This tells me we have a reasonable generous processing window to achieve our goals. Thank you Erik!
Well, I work in brass and steel water quenching brass make it more malleable air cooling brass it will go back to its original state - where steel hardens it to Anil steel you heat to 300 to 500 degrees F,. trust me I a black smith . I will do some test because all reloading I had seen them not quench.
You cannot over soften brass with the temps you will get from those torches. Dead soft is dead soft, if it is dead soft at 10 seconds it will be the same softness at 20 seconds. I agree that removing the springiness from the case head would be dangerous, but you would see evidence of heating much closer to the base if that was a concern. I am learning a ton from these videos and have been reloading since the 80s, thank you.
Eric, I’m loving your common sense approach to doing what works down range, rather than getting caught up in the rabbit holes of precision shooting. There is always a new press, new dies, new powders, bullets, etc. You use what works, test new things, but only change your process if it works better than your previous methods. I’m going to try your annealing method in place of Templilac, and see if it makes a difference. Can you talk to us about neck tension adjustments, and your views on whether or not it is worth tweaking?
I read a long time ago, not to resize a cartridge case you are going to be shooting from the same rifle again. The reasoning, was that it was unneeded and overworked a case, shortening its life and the fired case was pressure formed to the exact chamber dimensions. I just checked the OAL of the fired case, and trimmed as required. I shot smaller groups with my reloads versus new ammo. I shot a ton of reloaded ammo through my 6.5 cal Swedish mauser, with never any case separation.
My understanding is annealing releases the tension in the neck which softens up the brass. Resizing returns the brass to proper strength. Since you can't really resize the head, that part of the brass remains soft, causing separation over a short amount of time.
Another thing I would recommend is that you use a proper sized bushing and get rid of the expander. If your necks are the right thickness, you will tune the bullet pull with the neck bushing. I recommend carbide ground to half thousandths increments. They are slick and don’t work the brass as much.
I always dipped the neck and shoulder into my lead/bullet pot. Your fingers always got the right temp. We did not have a lot of gadgets. We had time, but not a lot of $. Hence our lack of a lot of gear to load our rounds. Thank you! I admit that a week to load 1300 - 357, 500-303 Brit and 400 - 30/30. Well - what else are we gonna do when it rains and your sitting by the lake. Cheers!
It would be interesting to see you shoot 10 shots over a chronograph with different batches of "annealed-timed" brass (but everything else equal) to see what the difference would be in average velocity and ES.
"The color change line correlates well with the length of time being heated" ........ The water quenching, I think, was started by one of the gun mags years ago. They were setting the brass up in a shallow water bath (primers out), and free hand heating the necks. When one was finished it was tipped over into the water to get it out of the way - and also allowing the brass to be picked up as soon as the last one was tipped. The articles of the time said that it wasn't mandatory, just convenient and also helped ensure that the heating didn't go too far down the case. As for how many seconds of heating, I have ALWAYS heard that the instant the flame changed color, the brass was to be removed. This is because a color change in the flame itself indicates that the zinc part of the brass alloy was being burned out. NOT something to be desired. By that criteria, even your first batch at 10 seconds was in too long. Not sure I'd want to experiment with those cases in my good firearm either, but the question is just begging to be answered, isn't it? P.S. Those who mentioned Matt at Demolition Ranch are on the right track. I've seen him try things that I wouldn't want to try (safely, of course).
Yup. It didn't stop you from over annealing, but it prevented you from annealing the base. And then yes, tipping it over so that you could grab it out of the pan; not anything to do with quenching. Also, quenching in oil vs water will get different results in steel. Steel is not brass (always made me wonder about those old machine guns that they'd pour water on when they started to glow, what that did to the metallurgy of the barrel.
Yes . Brass is very different to steel in 2 main areas when dealing with case prep . Specific Heat Capacity - basically brass will dissipate heat a lot faster than it gains so quenching is pointless as by the time it takes to drop from the annealer into water its already at a temperature where it won't make a b!Ind bit of difference . If the base has no colour then the half hard state is unaffected and probably at the same temperature it reaches when being fired . Secondly it work hardens very quickly . Anneal the shit out of it and soon ever you work it in anyway I.e. running it through a full length sizer , the brass regains hardness , whether to the point of the original hardness the seating pressure test you done confirms that it probably does In remaking '.280 British' from 7-30 Waters I have to anneal the cases down to the level that the new shoulder is positioned with absolutely no effect on the base and lower third hardness . I use common household items to check hardness on the Moh's Scale of hardness on a scale of 1-10 ( talc to diamond) taught me by my Geology teacher in the 70s . No fancy kit required here . If your that concerned about the heat at the base use a digital MM with a temp probe setting and check it . You will find that the steel plate and holder is wicking away heat very rapidly . Also in the process of drawing brass cases from blanking , the brass undergoes a number of annealing process right up until the primer pocket is blanked in to stop it work hardening and ripping the brass apart . It also seems that they were more consistent in bumping but not a large enough sample was used to prove anything on that one .
Honestly, I have to wonder if annealing the case head would even result in a catastrophic failure. Common sense tells us not to do it, so I can't say for certain anyone's ever done it. But the inner mad scientist in me wants to know how hard you can really push brass before it's dangerous. My hypothesis, the rim would probably give out before a casehead split. One might see issues in fluted chambers, or guns with high extraction pressures like delayed blowback guns. But I don't believe that we'd see case head separation after one firing. I'd expect case life to be dramatically reduced, you might see signs of case head separation a lot earlier (maybe as early as one firing), and expanded primer pockets. But no kb. I was experimenting with the pressure it takes to crush cases. Annealed (and I mean case case head and all) cases, while easier to crush, crushed with vary similar forces. Granted, I don't know how relevant that sort of experiment is in comparison to the forces cases are under in a rifle, but I do find it interesting. And, I suppose, in some ways confidence boosting. I wish guns weren't so expensive so I could do potentially dangerous tests on things I don't care about.
You can tell by the change in color where the brass annealed as you pointed out. The base on all was still the same color on all. The chamber should support the "softer" brass with no failure, the harder base should be the same as the original. I would shoot the 20 second brass. You know the 15 second brass color change is higher from the base, shoot a 15 sec case and see if there is any overall change in the brass size.
Way i look at it, the manufacturer knows best. If I could get my brass as beautifully annealed as Virgin lapua brass, I'd a happy shooter. Shoot some groups Eric, only way to see if there is any discernable difference.
Hey Eric, you allowed the brass to slowly cool. That's the reason for the hardness returning, though not to full hardness. The molecules are allowed to slowly contract together, versus water quenching where the molecules are quickly condensed, as brass is basically opposite in reaction to steel in this respect. Try this with brass rod, heat two of them, quench one in water and let the other air cool. The water quenched rod will be much softer. Just a blacksmith's experience.
The tension you were measuring was actually "seating pressure" i bet the actual bullet grip would be lower,, because the softer brass will push the brass out just like a sizing mandrel..
Well I tested it . 3 brass shells one not annealed The others where heat one quenched quickly the other air cooled . Water quench yields a softer brass . The air cooled feels just a touch softer the the none treated brass - hum to be on the safe side I would and will do as you do .
Brass with a thin neck require less time eg. .22 Hornet 6 seconds. .458 WM may require 9 Seconds. You’ll get to know with experience. No need for water cooling. You are correct. I’m with you what works works show and demonstrate and I might change.
Properly annealed brass has a "sticky" surface texture. You can feel the difference with your fingernail between the polished part of the brass and the annealed neck. It would be interesting to see how much difference polishing the neck id before seating a bullet would make. Over annealing may increase the friction compared to properly annealed causing skewed results.
the best way to know what affect the time had on the case is a Rockwell test to see the softness from tip to base. typically 175-185HV for a brass case while a fully annealed cartridge brass is typically 65HV. but just annealing the tip for resizing so my guess would be the tip at 10 sec. might be around the 85 mark and drop with more time and just a bit lower than 65 for 20 sec. and the affected softness area would head down to the heat lines in proportion. would it be safe to shoot is the question, I think the tip of the 20 case would break off when fired leaving brass in the barrel and have to be cleared before a second shot. would suggest remote firing to have safety involved somewhat.
Some will put Templaque on the inside the neck to keep from having the brass form an uneven heat from shielding the flame on the brass. It also allows you to see the paint change color in case in a bright setting. This is what I read, not my words from experience.
The over annealed brass can probably be shot once then check the base for stretching (shiny ring around the base) if ring appears throw it away. Thats the first sign the case will separate.
I love your research! Keep it up! Normally brass alloy is annealed at 475C (depending on purity and cold work (how much SHOOOTING)), for 1 hour. Inspection can be done in a microscope around 100x, so buy a high temp oven. In your method you have only recrystallized the smallest grains.
Just found your site and subbed, liked and saved. Lot of new gadgets from when I reloaded in 1975/79. A lot to learn and relearn from my days shooting jackrabbits in NoTrees Texas with hot 22-250 loads. Keep it safe!
Just found you on RUclips. Very interesting info. Two 👍👍 up! Looking forward to your AMP vs Bench Source video. After this video, there really looks like there’s so much forgiveness in annealing times, I don’t know that your AMP vs Bench Source really matters is worth the extra 💰 for my needs....
I always quench after annealing. True, some guys get away with not quenching and that is OK for them. I started reloading about 1967; have always quenched an anneal and it just seems like Russian roulette to not quench.In a worst case scenario, quenching just makes the brass wet inside; it will dry. Worst case scenario if one does not quench: Soft case head and the gun becomes shrapnel. Plus injuries and all the other terrible shit.
You put Tempilaq inside the neck to keep it out of the flame . If you were to have lets say 750* tempilaq on the outside of the neck . When the 2500* flame contacted it it would melt almost instantly Likely in less then a second and as you know if you are using any torch method it takes longer then a second to anneal cartridge brass .
Good video. Lets me see how much flame change there is when over heating. I do it by hand and 1 torch. Thanks. Keep on keeping on. You the pro I'm the amiture.
Annealing is annealing is annealing. Kind of. It's rearranging the crystalline structure in the metal, making it more pliable, softer and less brittle. Once the metal is heated to a certain temperature for (intentional) annealing, time really doesn't matter unless you have a very hot heat source, burning or melting the metal. So time doesn't matter, right? Weeelll... See how you have a line on the casing where the metal was borderline hot? Anything above that line is now more or less annealed, even if only the shoulder and up is to spec. Meaning it's softer than spec for that area of the casing. Meaning that these casings might expand more than they ought to and get "fat" and stick in the chamber, while casings that are only annealed shoulder up retain the "hard" body, more likely to spring back to shape and not get "fat". However! You are heating the casings more than you need. They don't need to glow. Only in Celsius/centigrade: Brass glows a dull red around 700 degrees. Annealing temperature for brass is 315-420 degrees. Average recommendation is about 370 degrees. In the very least, you're wasting gas at 5 seconds. I don't think you're hurting your casings by overheating like this (5 seconds), but yeah. Something to consider.
The annealing process goes to a point then it doesn't change when you get it hotter. But if you get it hot enough to destroy the structure of the brass obviously it will fail. In other words, you can only get it so soft.
Hi, I’m working on a lubing experiment. I use DCL and i spray some into the necks as well. Usually do that twice. I was waiting for the alcohol to evaporate and decided to warm them with a heet gun to speed the process. Reloading room temp was around 45. What I discovered was that the viscosity of the lube changed when the brass was say around 100 degrees This resulted in a much smoother and accurate sizing process particularly in the upstroke. To me the up stroke resistance is we’re I consistency happens. Just some food for thought.
Erik, your results actually makes sense. Basically the reason is your 10 seconds is already over anneal - it is cherry red. So the 15 and 20 does not make it any softer because they are also over annealed. As a result, you are going to get the same degree of shoulder bump and seating force. I've seen you do the time calibration before the correct way (which this is not). The correct way is to adjust your time so that when the case comes off the anneal position, it is just starting to turn very slightly red in a fully darken room (not cherry red). Now if you do that and compare seating force, it will be more than your 10,15, or 20 second annealed brass. For shoulder bump, you may not see significant difference between the correct time or the over-annealed brass because the shoulder will only go down so far. For should bump, you will only likely see a difference i.e. longer if you used un-annealed brass which of course has the case harden. The case harden brass will fight the bump and bounce back so longer.
and yet the proof is in the doing here's something to think about "Over" annealed brass flows forward during the resizing, then is pushed back to size "Under" annealed brass flows forward during the resizing, the springs back as well as pushed back those forces, while different produce the same result, identical brass unless you have actually tested all the variables, you are just guessing. Just like the thousands who post the old wives' tales about annealing on every forum
best lube for sizing unless it's a case-forming process is rcbs lube. it's actually concentrated soap, so it cleans the cases, and it's water soluble, so just rinse and let dry. there's NO residue left, inside or outside the case. the wax based lubes tend to make powder stick in the neck. just my two cents.
I believe the word you were looking for was “intuitive”. I don't know why, but (and I use the word at least once a week) this is one of the hardest words for me to recall as well. This time only took me a few seconds to get it out, but I've had days where it doesn't come to me until I find it in the thesaurus!
I think it makes perfect sense. Brass (the material) is either annealed or it isn't it is not really a matter of degree. By annealing longer you haven't changed the level of annealing of the neck you have simply allowed a greater length of the case to be annealed ie the case is now soft closer to the critical head area. So no real change in uniformity of neck tension but a major change in the integrity of the brass to contain pressure during firing. I would not fire the over annealed brass non the grounds of safety not accuracy.
I think the modulous of elasticity to be more important even tho it is a function of relative hardness. There is a point where hardness and elasticity are optimum and if hardened over that point the brass won't hold the bullet. Over hardened brass will be hard to seat but won't hold the bullet once seated.
Intertaining stuff? Like my wife would say, its right there with watching paint dry. Funny thing about reloading is that both of my daughters loved to help me reload?
Ive been putting a rod into my lathe amd sitting with my b tank torch. Going until the neck and shoulder turn red then dropping onto my cookie sheet. I think it gets hot a little quick but so far im at 3x fired brass with zero abnormality or negative change in the brass. Its a hands on process but its quicker than your flame annealer. And with good rhythm its almost as fast as an amp.
When I first tried annealing I used an oxy acy torch set very very low. I never got them as hot at the ones you did for 20 seconds, but after 3-4 runs through I started getting holes in the necks. Not cracks. Holes. Like the area got think from it melting/burning away
I honestly couldn’t care less about this subject but I appreciate all the information you put out so I clicked on the video to give you a like. Keep up the good work Erik, god bless ya brother.
I don't have any fancy tools but while watching this video I used my drill and a socket to heat 338 lapua brass up. Then smashed the necks on the side of my desk to see how hard I would have to press to bend it. It was very obvious that non annealed brass was so hard I couldn't dent it. It was also clear that from the point from 0 degrees to 500 degrees (I have a very accurate thermometer on my multimeter or just counting from 1 second to 6 seconds) the hardness clearly scales with time/heat (it gets softer as it reaches glowing red) After it glows red it didn't seem to matter if I held it on the torch for 8 seconds or 30 seconds it was VERY soft brass and I could easily bend the necks on my desk. So I guess the real question is. Is there an exact moment when it's perfect before glowing red.
11:00 "Conclusively... I observed, when conducting an analysis of thermal exposure effects on brass, we observe a direct correlation between the duration of heat application and the resultant chromatic alterations in the brass material. Specifically, the temporal extension of brass exposure to a flame induces progressive discoloration. Empirical data indicate that prolonged heat exposure propagates scorch marks longitudinally along the brass casing. This phenomenon can be quantitatively characterized by measuring the depth and intensity of discoloration relative to exposure time, providing a robust model for predicting thermal impact on brass cases. Watching your videos as I have started Annealing my brass. Thank you for sharing. :D yes, I'm sometimes a rocket scientist :P.
Interesting for sure. But is that automatic contraption really necessary? I just use a 1/2 inch deep well socket on an extension, a propane torch, spin it by hand and count 8-9 seconds while watching for the correct color change.
@@wilfdarr Hehehe you aint lying. Hehe they just did that with this video. I suspect some guys who were service rifle class shooters that gripe about anything are in Erik's F class now plying their tricks.
Thanks for the video Erik and for clarification on one question. Anneal every time. One thing F class shooters must try to do is eliminate inconsistencies. If you could reload the same piece of brass for each shot, with the same prep, you would have something. That might make an interesting video. Keepem coming!
This automated reloading setup is off the charts brother really cool.... I'm still trying to figure out my Dillon 550C but this thing you got looks like if it gets mad it'll take over the world!!! LOL
Good day! The experiment clearly showed that time is a poor criterion for the quality of annealing. This is so, because the temperature of the flame can be different due to the fact that the flow rate can be less or more, and this depends on the pressure in the cylinder. It is necessary to measure the temperature at the bottom of the sleeve so that there is no interference from the flame for the pyrometer. It is necessary to determine the temperature at the bottom of the sleeve that will give the best annealing, it can be 400-550f. The correct criterion is not time; the correct criterion is temperature. If the platform is automatically moved when temperature is reached, it will be bingo.
What your going to be worried about with over annealing is softness in the brass body. The cases may fire form too tight to the chamber. Possibly getting a buldge. Shouldn't be dangerous until you anneal the case head which you didn't. I don't recommend drying brass on a baking sheet in the oven for that reason. The most common way for a beginner to over-anneal brass.
If you do shoot them I would use starting loads (less pressure). Then check shoulder to base without sizing to check for case stretch. Which should be what happens with over annealed brass.
I like how you do things, i always learn so much, like.....keep your press clean :). I shoot 6BR and have improved my groups significantly from watching your videos, and yes i don't neck size anymore
Be carefull If you fire a case which has been annealed on the body, you take the risk of getting it firmly stuck into the chamber (because the brass has no spring back).
Man, I've been following this sh#t for a while, and I have to tell you, Great! With similar approach (to life), I really appreciate your honesty & practicality. Keepin' it real!
If you decide to conduct another test, please be sure to chamfer & most importantly, brush the carbon out of the necks. This usually makes a considerable difference to seating force & smoothness. Thanks Eric for the testing. Kind Regards...........Rotas
The word you're looking for is "INDICATIVE"....at least that's what I'd use to describe the indication of the different heat markings represented by different heat times on the OUTER-BOOM Stick part...that should keep them off your back...right? Brother I am really getting into your videos and learning a stink load from you. I've reloaded since 1968 and been stuck in more than a few RrruuuttttZ but You-Be-DA-MAN for all my go to SHHTUFF from now on Erik Cortina. I just bought a 100cnt box of new 30-06 LAPUA and they look about identical to how you ANNEAL the SHHTUFF you work up...of course that could be done by the new/improved AMP system but to me this is a good representation that they feel this level is one par for their new SHHTUFF so that's good enough for anyone, ME ANYWAY...OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?
I would expect them to be functional but repeated scaling (the black oxide coating) will eventually change the wall thickness. If you can get them soft enough to size properly without the scale formation I suspect that's the optimal condition for a long useful life. Thanks for the video.
Running the sizing dies after annealing work hardened the brass. Just watched some guy do hardness testing and annealing on a AMP. When he sized the brass after proper annealing with measured hardness, it rose again to almost the same level of hardness as before the annealing. He used an explanation of stored energy to reflect what is being done with work (firing and sizing) hardening and releasing that energy with heat. Annealing Made Perfect RUclips channel, What happens if you anneal the same case twice?
I may have told you previously but between your videos and F-Class John's, you've dispelled many myths and misconceptions, when it comes to handloading rife ammo. Your videos have really helped me understand the process. Please keep posting these types of videos. Thanks so much.
Annealing is intended to release the built up tensions that are inside the brass from the working of the metal. Its purpose is to reduce the work fatigue and increase the ductility of the case metal.
Over heating can burn off some of the zinc and leave the bronze. This can make the case both harder and more brittle. That is why the PSI increased for the cases that were heated longer.
What you will find is that those cases are now more brittle and are likely to fail much earlier than the other cases that have not been "burned".
@mikeaxe1 Bronze and Brass are both made from copper, I think Terry's point was that when you burn out the zinc by overheating, what you're left with is no longer brass.
quite the opposite. Annealing will soften the brass. The more cherry red you heat the case, the softer it gets.
You can't burn out the zinc....brass is an alloy of two metals. If you over heat it, it will melt and turn to liquid, but it will still be brass. The two metals do not separate from each other no matter how much you heat them.
@@stevelessard6216 you are incorrect. The metals have different melting points.
@@stevelessard6216 you can definitely burn out the zinc smarty pants, it melts at a lower temperature than copper, Do some more research before you fancy yourself an expert.
Started "annealing" my brass, 7BR, years ago with a torch. Found plans on Accurate Shooter for an induction annealer and built one. After reading through page after page of comments and observations like Eriks. I now do not fully anneal but rather normalize, i.e. I don't heat to annealing temps but just short of it, why run something at redline everytime, after every firing. Literally takes 15-20 minutes to run 120 pcs from getting the machine out and putting it away.
Interesting results Erik, thanks for adding to the knowledge base!
Wasn't subscribed but am now.
Hey alright, another member of the Ginaerick club! I've also built a version of the "GinaErick Induction Annealer". Great for those that want the functionality of induction, but with a DIY twist. Highly recommend people seek that thread out. Lots of information.
Can someone send a link to the plans for induction annealer?
Man this is awesome. You realize if they all shoot good than you have disrupted an entire industry built on a high dollar annealer to anneal perfect everytime
I use that same annealer. Used tempilaq to establish my cutoff times for each of the rounds I reload, 308, 223, 338LM, 6.5 cm.
Range is from about 3 to 4 seconds for 223; 4 to 5 sec. 308; and 5 to 6 for 338, roughly.
Ambient temps dictate variations, but these times work very well for me, & my brass has lasted me for many reloads. Primer pockets wear out and case heads will of course wear out, too, but notwithstanding normal wear, annealing breathes new life into my cases.
Process: shoot, deprime, clean, anneal, lube n resize, trim, clean again, then load. Works great!
Thanks Eric for the great vids.
Looking forward to the comparison of the two annealers
Do the wrong end and have him shoot it.
Not interested video you tube channel ban kar do
English please?????
Agree about keeping the base of brass good. However, when I was shooting HiPower rifle with an M1 Garland in 30-06 using national match brass, I started having case separation. I had loaded them too many times. My mentor, an old Army armored told me to sharpen the end of a short piece of coat hanger and bend the sharp end up so it will fit in the neck. After cleaning the brass he said to use the coat hanger to feel from the bottom along the wall. If you feel a little hang or gap, throw that case away. I did that cut a couple of the cases in half and saw a ring on the inside of the cases where after sizing too many times the case was starting to separate and get to thin for extraction. When you can’t feel a gap. They were Ok.
Some say throw away after X number of reloads. I found I got a lot more loads using this method.
That's what she said
@The94GTC You can't really just " Shoulder-bump" in autoloaders, especially M1 and M1-A style rigs. You need Guaranteed functioning for every round. A little slop is kinda just the way things are.
I have so many questions about case prep and im finding answers in your vids. Appreciate it.
@@jeffallen3382 i do with loading 223, but i keep trying different things for trying to make my 5.5 shoot better
The major purpose of dropping annealed brass in water is not “quenching”. It doesn’t. It’s for ease of handling. It cools the brass quickly enough to be friendly to handle.
My little experience annealing brass manually indicated that, unless you destroyed the brass by grossly “overcooking” it with a torch (yes, it’s possible), when it is fired and resized the brass returns to a fairly consistent state.
It also stops the heat transfer to the base.
If you're getting white smoke out of your brass, you've over cooked it. That's the zinc coming out, don't breath that in if you can help it.
I think the tension depends a lot on how much the annealing process burns the soot inside the neck. My humble experience has shown that if gunpowder soot burns more than burning, the tension is stronger. That’s why I sometimes use dry lube before seating bullets. It pretty much helps for more consistency. My english is not very good, (google translate) i hope you understand what i mean...
I think the necks all fully annealed on all 3 so the tension was the same. The difference is that the annealing went farther down the case with the longer times, which allows the brass to expand more in the chamber, which might cause issues with holding pressure, brass life, extraction and loose primer pockets after firing. We want the head around the primer to be hard so it holds up.
It is actually really interesting. A lot of good info.
How about a bore scope video. New and used barrels.
"I'm about to ruin some very good brass." ...ouch!
This was good stuff, Erik.
If you look at Military 5.56 ammunition the heat marks are similar to the 20 seconds of annealing. Reminder military brass is always shreded and sold for scrap never reloaded.
I learn more from your videos than anywhere else. Keep up the great work!
Don't let Matt in your shop while annealing. He'll grab it right out of the heat cycle. "Aagh! That's hot!" Thank you, Sir. Learning more everyday.
I´m annealing about 500 cases every time.
So, if I drop it dry, it heats the whole bunch up and I had in fact overheated cases because of that.
That´s why I´m quenching them in a big bucket full of water, and the water gets pretty warm by that.
At a first try at annealing, I overheated the cases, not realising that the bases shouldn't be annealed. The primers wouldn't seat properly! They formed a ridge in the soft primer pocket and wouldn't go all the way in and I had to decap live primers to get them out of the shell carrier. Another good reason to limit the heat to the neck area. You live and learn!
Mike M.
I think the brass only gets to a certain hardness and it won't get any softer no matter how long you heat it. The only difference is how far down the brass the heat transfers. Obviously once it gets to the head, it's ruined. But if you anneal it standing in water, the heat won't get under the waterline. So you can heat it for as long as you want (until the water boils away) and it shouldn't affect the neck tension. The water quench is only an added benefit for cooling.
I lube with STP. Many years ago (in the 1970s) I used RCBS lube and it so closely resembled STP polymer that I switched to STP forever. It requires a little extra wiping off maybe but I use brass from the machine gun range and it needs a lot of force to size. Never stuck a case with STP. Trim and deburr, then de-crimp, then polish with stainless steel media and Dawn liquid with a dash of citric acid. Makes good ball ammo. If I anneal it will always be just the mouth and with water quench. Too much will make them stretch.
I would have expected the longer you anneal the softer it would get. An interesting test would have been do have a set of brass that you did not anneal as a baseline to compare to. Also we didn't see the 5 second I think you indicated you normally anneal to. I have a single torch and will anneal until I just turn the neck red and then it drops out. Right now I have 25 firings on one set of .308 Lapua brass. I attribute that to the annealing. Thanks for sharing this Erik.
Working brass is more of a normalization than annealing process. Back in the day we only had a torch and with practice you could get really consistent results. But back then we didn't have gauges on our seaters tho. I would spend weeks forming ppc brass and have tried everything to salvage bad ones. I have successfully annealed brass that was hardened by over heating. We have an oven at work heat treating steel and you can look up the temp over time profile for different materials and set up the oven accordingly.
Hello Eric. I’m not going to waste your time with what I’ve done or how long I’ve been doing it. I would like to compliment you on your outside of the box thinking because that is were innovation comes from. I would also like to complement you on providing the information of what you do for competition, for younger generations. I’m sure the guys give you a little bit of a hard time. With what is at risk within our country right now, I believe what we need are more ambassadors for shooting sports and really the full measure of firearms. Well done, and keep going. Even I have observed a thing or two. Cheers.
first time i annealed, (25yrs ago) i had a 257 weatherby rebarreld to 257 arnold for a bit hotter round,, long story,, i annealed "by color" & ruined ~ 20 cases... i loaded the ammo & later when i opened up my ammo box,, all the bullets had fallen down into the brass on top of the powder! i didn't anneal anything for a few yrs until i competed in benchrest & bought an annealer,, it used 2 flames that were seperated a bit , & a rotating wheel for different calibers.. & it worked just fine! they were rare then before prs ect. (i had to sell it because of being out of work a few yrs back). there are several good decent priced machines now though.. i expect the induction machine is primo... if you don't anneal,, the shoulder bump will end up not bumping back with the same die adjustment. & real neck tension will not be what it was just a few shots back.. (my manual presses never had the problem you demonstrated when you first started sizing!! ;>) that is a cool machine you have there!! i would think the over annealed "bumps" would be identical. as the soft brass should push back & stay there? (it did) i bet the actual neck tension varied as more for lower time and less real tension for longer anneal assuming the brass actually got softer.. i remember reading quit when the brass gets "cherry red".. & i guess i didn't have a good eye for it.. i think i had it in the flame a lot longer than you did though!!
Nice vid and interesting results. BIG difference in ~$40 in brass/bullets vs 5k+ boom-stick for trials
Very true. Anyone that has had to get a stick of brass out of a chamber that has separated will understand completely... I have been there and it sucks lol
Kind of looked like the 10 sec was the softest with seating pressure going up after that. Some hardening with overheating maybe? Your videos always getting me thinking about so many other tests i end up researching on the net for hours.
Hope to see you on the firing line one day brother. Thanks again for your time and effort
Most definitely. Can’t see what’s happening at a molecular level, but would appear the 15-20 second annealed brass is harder then the 10 sec. Over annealed.
The brass must be rapidly quenched in a bath of water while still glowing red. If it is allowed to cool in air, then the brass is not properly annealed.
Quench rates have an integral effect on metal microstructures.
This is a critical step, THE MOST CRITICAL.
@@supra60 This is wildly inaccurate. Anyone who has done any actual testing of brass annealing will tell you that quenching brass after annealing will only result in wet brass.
@@supra60 Really? I don't know where you get your information. Brass does not need to be quenched after annealing.
@@garrytalley8009 Literally EVERY alloy has properties influenced by quench rate...
When I was 16 and first started reloading (58yrs ago), I read about annealing. So, I tried it. However, I must have missed the part where you only anneal the neck/shoulder area. It locked up my Savage model 99 solid, and gave me a perfect cast of the chamber, flowing so as to make a rimmed cartridge.
Hi Eric
After I size F/L size with expander ball and seat bullet. I use a neck die with a bushing I have reamed for the OD of the neck I calculated. It makes the wall thickness consistent to that bullet. When you run it half way down the neck (just for inspection) you can see it massaging the brass and can see the difference of how much brass is being moved from one side to the other. What it did for SD was impressive. I was neck turning before. This method to me was way more consistent. I don't have the rifles you have or reloading equipment to do a video on it. Maybe this is some thing you mite be interested in
doing a video on.
Harold
I believe the ultimate goal is to develop a process which allows repeatable and consistent results in terms of bullet velocity. Whether it be anneal for 10, 15, or 20 seconds, the neck brass is now ductile which allows it to stretch to insure proper bullet grip.
Work hardened brass requires quite a bit more force to expand thus creating higher retention force. This will also require more internal pressure resulting in higher velocities which changes the impact point down range.
I don't believe we as shooters are looking for a specific hardness but rather consistent neck tension which correlates more uniform velocities which allows us to predict downrange performance.
While there will always be differences or variables, it's up to us to determine if they're meaningful.
With the seating pressure device, Erik proves heating the necks for 10, 15, and 20 seconds doesn't have an meaningful impact on bullet seating force. This tells me we have a reasonable generous processing window to achieve our goals.
Thank you Erik!
Well, I work in brass and steel water quenching brass make it more malleable air cooling brass it will go back to its original state - where steel hardens it to Anil steel you heat to 300 to 500 degrees F,.
trust me I a black smith . I will do some test because all reloading I had seen them not quench.
You cannot over soften brass with the temps you will get from those torches. Dead soft is dead soft, if it is dead soft at 10 seconds it will be the same softness at 20 seconds. I agree that removing the springiness from the case head would be dangerous, but you would see evidence of heating much closer to the base if that was a concern. I am learning a ton from these videos and have been reloading since the 80s, thank you.
What pressure would you typically expect to see when seating a “normal” annealed piece of brass?
Eric, I’m loving your common sense approach to doing what works down range, rather than getting caught up in the rabbit holes of precision shooting. There is always a new press, new dies, new powders, bullets, etc. You use what works, test new things, but only change your process if it works better than your previous methods. I’m going to try your annealing method in place of Templilac, and see if it makes a difference. Can you talk to us about neck tension adjustments, and your views on whether or not it is worth tweaking?
It's amazing the heat transfer, that it could last that long and not become liquid, all going straight into the base
I read a long time ago, not to resize a cartridge case you are going to be shooting from the same rifle again. The reasoning, was that it was unneeded and overworked a case, shortening its life and the fired case was pressure formed to the exact chamber dimensions. I just checked the OAL of the fired case, and trimmed as required. I shot smaller groups with my reloads versus new ammo.
I shot a ton of reloaded ammo through my 6.5 cal Swedish mauser, with never any case separation.
My understanding is annealing releases the tension in the neck which softens up the brass. Resizing returns the brass to proper strength. Since you can't really resize the head, that part of the brass remains soft, causing separation over a short amount of time.
Another thing I would recommend is that you use a proper sized bushing and get rid of the expander. If your necks are the right thickness, you will tune the bullet pull with the neck bushing. I recommend carbide ground to half thousandths increments. They are slick and don’t work the brass as much.
I always dipped the neck and shoulder into my lead/bullet pot. Your fingers always got the right temp. We did not have a lot of gadgets. We had time, but not a lot of $. Hence our lack of a lot of gear to load our rounds. Thank you! I admit that a week to load 1300 - 357, 500-303 Brit and 400 - 30/30. Well - what else are we gonna do when it rains and your sitting by the lake. Cheers!
It would be interesting to see you shoot 10 shots over a chronograph with different batches of "annealed-timed" brass (but everything else equal) to see what the difference would be in average velocity and ES.
"The color change line correlates well with the length of time being heated" ........
The water quenching, I think, was started by one of the gun mags years ago. They were setting the brass up in a shallow water bath (primers out), and free hand heating the necks. When one was finished it was tipped over into the water to get it out of the way - and also allowing the brass to be picked up as soon as the last one was tipped. The articles of the time said that it wasn't mandatory, just convenient and also helped ensure that the heating didn't go too far down the case.
As for how many seconds of heating, I have ALWAYS heard that the instant the flame changed color, the brass was to be removed. This is because a color change in the flame itself indicates that the zinc part of the brass alloy was being burned out. NOT something to be desired. By that criteria, even your first batch at 10 seconds was in too long.
Not sure I'd want to experiment with those cases in my good firearm either, but the question is just begging to be answered, isn't it?
P.S. Those who mentioned Matt at Demolition Ranch are on the right track. I've seen him try things that I wouldn't want to try (safely, of course).
Yup. It didn't stop you from over annealing, but it prevented you from annealing the base. And then yes, tipping it over so that you could grab it out of the pan; not anything to do with quenching.
Also, quenching in oil vs water will get different results in steel. Steel is not brass (always made me wonder about those old machine guns that they'd pour water on when they started to glow, what that did to the metallurgy of the barrel.
Love it, you are about to solve all my mysteries with the whole annealing thing so excited for the up coming videos,! Great work Erik!
Nice - I have to subscribe.
I've been reloading straight walled cases for about 30 yrs but just started rifle.
I hope primers come back
and powder
Yes . Brass is very different to steel in 2 main areas when dealing with case prep . Specific Heat Capacity - basically brass will dissipate heat a lot faster than it gains so quenching is pointless as by the time it takes to drop from the annealer into water its already at a temperature where it won't make a b!Ind bit of difference . If the base has no colour then the half hard state is unaffected and probably at the same temperature it reaches when being fired .
Secondly it work hardens very quickly . Anneal the shit out of it and soon ever you work it in anyway I.e. running it through a full length sizer , the brass regains hardness , whether to the point of the original hardness the seating pressure test you done confirms that it probably does In remaking '.280 British' from 7-30 Waters I have to anneal the cases down to the level that the new shoulder is positioned with absolutely no effect on the base and lower third hardness . I use common household items to check hardness on the Moh's Scale of hardness on a scale of 1-10 ( talc to diamond) taught me by my Geology teacher in the 70s . No fancy kit required here . If your that concerned about the heat at the base use a digital MM with a temp probe setting and check it . You will find that the steel plate and holder is wicking away heat very rapidly .
Also in the process of drawing brass cases from blanking , the brass undergoes a number of annealing process right up until the primer pocket is blanked in to stop it work hardening and ripping the brass apart .
It also seems that they were more consistent in bumping but not a large enough sample was used to prove anything on that one .
Get Matt from Demo Ranch to shoot the over annealed brass.
Matt will shoot the 1 minute annealed brass no questions asked. Time to call in an expert
He can use a Gucci gun to do it.
Don't do my friend like that
Stretchy string to the rescue!
Honestly, I have to wonder if annealing the case head would even result in a catastrophic failure. Common sense tells us not to do it, so I can't say for certain anyone's ever done it. But the inner mad scientist in me wants to know how hard you can really push brass before it's dangerous.
My hypothesis, the rim would probably give out before a casehead split. One might see issues in fluted chambers, or guns with high extraction pressures like delayed blowback guns. But I don't believe that we'd see case head separation after one firing. I'd expect case life to be dramatically reduced, you might see signs of case head separation a lot earlier (maybe as early as one firing), and expanded primer pockets. But no kb.
I was experimenting with the pressure it takes to crush cases. Annealed (and I mean case case head and all) cases, while easier to crush, crushed with vary similar forces. Granted, I don't know how relevant that sort of experiment is in comparison to the forces cases are under in a rifle, but I do find it interesting. And, I suppose, in some ways confidence boosting.
I wish guns weren't so expensive so I could do potentially dangerous tests on things I don't care about.
You can tell by the change in color where the brass annealed as you pointed out. The base on all was still the same color on all. The chamber should support the "softer" brass with no failure, the harder base should be the same as the original. I would shoot the 20 second brass. You know the 15 second brass color change is higher from the base, shoot a 15 sec case and see if there is any overall change in the brass size.
Way i look at it, the manufacturer knows best. If I could get my brass as beautifully annealed as Virgin lapua brass, I'd a happy shooter.
Shoot some groups Eric, only way to see if there is any discernable difference.
Hey Eric, you allowed the brass to slowly cool. That's the reason for the hardness returning, though not to full hardness. The molecules are allowed to slowly contract together, versus water quenching where the molecules are quickly condensed, as brass is basically opposite in reaction to steel in this respect. Try this with brass rod, heat two of them, quench one in water and let the other air cool. The water quenched rod will be much softer. Just a blacksmith's experience.
The tension you were measuring was actually "seating pressure" i bet the actual bullet grip would be lower,, because the softer brass will push the brass out just like a sizing mandrel..
Well I tested it .
3 brass shells one not annealed
The others where heat one quenched quickly the other air cooled .
Water quench yields a softer brass .
The air cooled feels just a touch softer the the none treated brass - hum to be on the safe side I would and will do as you do .
So the quenched was softer? Just curious bc you said you're going with his way? Thanks for testing & sharing.👍
Yes the quench is softer but work hardens
Brass with a thin neck require less time eg. .22 Hornet 6 seconds. .458 WM may require 9 Seconds. You’ll get to know with experience. No need for water cooling. You are correct. I’m with you what works works show and demonstrate and I might change.
Properly annealed brass has a "sticky" surface texture. You can feel the difference with your fingernail between the polished part of the brass and the annealed neck. It would be interesting to see how much difference polishing the neck id before seating a bullet would make. Over annealing may increase the friction compared to properly annealed causing skewed results.
One more reason I'll be sticking with my single stage.
the best way to know what affect the time had on the case is a Rockwell test to see the softness from tip to base. typically 175-185HV for a brass case while a fully annealed cartridge brass is typically 65HV. but just annealing the tip for resizing so my guess would be the tip at 10 sec. might be around the 85 mark and drop with more time and just a bit lower than 65 for 20 sec. and the affected softness area would head down to the heat lines in proportion. would it be safe to shoot is the question, I think the tip of the 20 case would break off when fired leaving brass in the barrel and have to be cleared before a second shot. would suggest remote firing to have safety involved somewhat.
Some will put Templaque on the inside the neck to keep from having the brass form an uneven heat from shielding the flame on the brass. It also allows you to see the paint change color in case in a bright setting. This is what I read, not my words from experience.
The over annealed brass can probably be shot once then check the base for stretching (shiny ring around the base) if ring appears throw it away. Thats the first sign the case will separate.
I love your research! Keep it up! Normally brass alloy is annealed at 475C (depending on purity and cold work (how much SHOOOTING)), for 1 hour.
Inspection can be done in a microscope around 100x, so buy a high temp oven.
In your method you have only recrystallized the smallest grains.
Just found your site and subbed, liked and saved. Lot of new gadgets from when I reloaded in 1975/79. A lot to learn and relearn from my days shooting jackrabbits in NoTrees Texas with hot 22-250 loads. Keep it safe!
Just found you on RUclips. Very interesting info. Two 👍👍 up! Looking forward to your AMP vs Bench Source video. After this video, there really looks like there’s so much forgiveness in annealing times, I don’t know that your AMP vs Bench Source really matters is worth the extra 💰 for my needs....
I don’t quinch my brass. It seems to cool off fairly quick. Thanks for sharing your information and videos. Very enjoyable and interesting.
I always quench after annealing. True, some guys get away with not quenching and that is OK for them. I started reloading about 1967; have always quenched an anneal and it just seems like Russian roulette to not quench.In a worst case scenario, quenching just makes the brass wet inside; it will dry. Worst case scenario if one does not quench: Soft case head and the gun becomes shrapnel. Plus injuries and all the other terrible shit.
"Consistent with expectations." Good stuff, Erik. Thanks for the education.
You put Tempilaq inside the neck to keep it out of the flame . If you were to have lets say 750* tempilaq on the outside of the neck . When the 2500* flame contacted it it would melt almost instantly Likely in less then a second and as you know if you are using any torch method it takes longer then a second to anneal cartridge brass .
Good video. Lets me see how much flame change there is when over heating. I do it by hand and 1 torch. Thanks. Keep on keeping on. You the pro I'm the amiture.
Annealing is annealing is annealing. Kind of. It's rearranging the crystalline structure in the metal, making it more pliable, softer and less brittle. Once the metal is heated to a certain temperature for (intentional) annealing, time really doesn't matter unless you have a very hot heat source, burning or melting the metal. So time doesn't matter, right?
Weeelll... See how you have a line on the casing where the metal was borderline hot? Anything above that line is now more or less annealed, even if only the shoulder and up is to spec. Meaning it's softer than spec for that area of the casing. Meaning that these casings might expand more than they ought to and get "fat" and stick in the chamber, while casings that are only annealed shoulder up retain the "hard" body, more likely to spring back to shape and not get "fat".
However! You are heating the casings more than you need. They don't need to glow.
Only in Celsius/centigrade:
Brass glows a dull red around 700 degrees.
Annealing temperature for brass is 315-420 degrees. Average recommendation is about 370 degrees.
In the very least, you're wasting gas at 5 seconds.
I don't think you're hurting your casings by overheating like this (5 seconds), but yeah. Something to consider.
The annealing process goes to a point then it doesn't change when you get it hotter. But if you get it hot enough to destroy the structure of the brass obviously it will fail. In other words, you can only get it so soft.
Hi, I’m working on a lubing experiment. I use DCL and i spray some into the necks as well. Usually do that twice. I was waiting for the alcohol to evaporate and decided to warm them with a heet gun to speed the process. Reloading room temp was around 45. What I discovered was that the viscosity of the lube changed when the brass was say around 100 degrees This resulted in a much smoother and accurate sizing process particularly in the upstroke. To me the up stroke resistance is we’re I consistency happens. Just some food for thought.
Erik, your results actually makes sense. Basically the reason is your 10 seconds is already over anneal - it is cherry red. So the 15 and 20 does not make it any softer because they are also over annealed. As a result, you are going to get the same degree of shoulder bump and seating force.
I've seen you do the time calibration before the correct way (which this is not). The correct way is to adjust your time so that when the case comes off the anneal position, it is just starting to turn very slightly red in a fully darken room (not cherry red). Now if you do that and compare seating force, it will be more than your 10,15, or 20 second annealed brass. For shoulder bump, you may not see significant difference between the correct time or the over-annealed brass because the shoulder will only go down so far.
For should bump, you will only likely see a difference i.e. longer if you used un-annealed brass which of course has the case harden. The case harden brass will fight the bump and bounce back so longer.
and yet the proof is in the doing
here's something to think about
"Over" annealed brass flows forward during the resizing, then is pushed back to size
"Under" annealed brass flows forward during the resizing, the springs back as well as pushed back
those forces, while different produce the same result, identical brass
unless you have actually tested all the variables, you are just guessing. Just like the thousands who post the old wives' tales about annealing on every forum
best lube for sizing unless it's a case-forming process is rcbs lube. it's actually concentrated soap, so it cleans the cases, and it's water soluble, so just rinse and let dry. there's NO residue left, inside or outside the case. the wax based lubes tend to make powder stick in the neck. just my two cents.
Watching the color of the metal is how spinforming pros do it. Once you get an eye for the color and temp you can't go wrong.
I believe the word you were looking for was “intuitive”. I don't know why, but (and I use the word at least once a week) this is one of the hardest words for me to recall as well. This time only took me a few seconds to get it out, but I've had days where it doesn't come to me until I find it in the thesaurus!
It looks like the Amp machine is going to have to be pretty special to beat your current machine.
it is and so is the price
I think it makes perfect sense. Brass (the material) is either annealed or it isn't it is not really a matter of degree. By annealing longer you haven't changed the level of annealing of the neck you have simply allowed a greater length of the case to be annealed ie the case is now soft closer to the critical head area. So no real change in uniformity of neck tension but a major change in the integrity of the brass to contain pressure during firing. I would not fire the over annealed brass non the grounds of safety not accuracy.
Would love to see a shooting comparison video!
I think the modulous of elasticity to be more important even tho it is a function of relative hardness. There is a point where hardness and elasticity are optimum and if hardened over that point the brass won't hold the bullet. Over hardened brass will be hard to seat but won't hold the bullet once seated.
Intertaining stuff? Like my wife would say, its right there with watching paint dry. Funny thing about reloading is that both of my daughters loved to help me reload?
Ive been putting a rod into my lathe amd sitting with my b tank torch. Going until the neck and shoulder turn red then dropping onto my cookie sheet. I think it gets hot a little quick but so far im at 3x fired brass with zero abnormality or negative change in the brass. Its a hands on process but its quicker than your flame annealer. And with good rhythm its almost as fast as an amp.
When I first tried annealing I used an oxy acy torch set very very low. I never got them as hot at the ones you did for 20 seconds, but after 3-4 runs through I started getting holes in the necks. Not cracks. Holes. Like the area got think from it melting/burning away
That gas burns waaaay too hot.
I honestly couldn’t care less about this subject but I appreciate all the information you put out so I clicked on the video to give you a like. Keep up the good work Erik, god bless ya brother.
Before this is over Eric is going to question everything all over again
I don't have any fancy tools but while watching this video I used my drill and a socket to heat 338 lapua brass up. Then smashed the necks on the side of my desk to see how hard I would have to press to bend it. It was very obvious that non annealed brass was so hard I couldn't dent it. It was also clear that from the point from 0 degrees to 500 degrees (I have a very accurate thermometer on my multimeter or just counting from 1 second to 6 seconds) the hardness clearly scales with time/heat (it gets softer as it reaches glowing red) After it glows red it didn't seem to matter if I held it on the torch for 8 seconds or 30 seconds it was VERY soft brass and I could easily bend the necks on my desk. So I guess the real question is. Is there an exact moment when it's perfect before glowing red.
Hi Erik
Awesome video as usual. What one can conclude is, as you OVER ANNEAL, you get inconsistent neck tension. Cheers
Thanks for your continued honesty and transparency.
Good for you still monetized talking about those scary scary bullets you figured it out i do really like your videos you get my like
11:00 "Conclusively... I observed, when conducting an analysis of thermal exposure effects on brass, we observe a direct correlation between the duration of heat application and the resultant chromatic alterations in the brass material. Specifically, the temporal extension of brass exposure to a flame induces progressive discoloration. Empirical data indicate that prolonged heat exposure propagates scorch marks longitudinally along the brass casing. This phenomenon can be quantitatively characterized by measuring the depth and intensity of discoloration relative to exposure time, providing a robust model for predicting thermal impact on brass cases.
Watching your videos as I have started Annealing my brass. Thank you for sharing. :D yes, I'm sometimes a rocket scientist :P.
Interesting for sure. But is that automatic contraption really necessary? I just use a 1/2 inch deep well socket on an extension, a propane torch, spin it by hand and count 8-9 seconds while watching for the correct color change.
Meanwhile all of your competitions are coming up with ideas for you to stay distracted with to keep you off your rifle :)
And ruin your good brass🤑🤑🤑
@@wilfdarr Hehehe you aint lying. Hehe they just did that with this video. I suspect some guys who were service rifle class shooters that gripe about anything are in Erik's F class now plying their tricks.
Thanks for the video Erik and for clarification on one question. Anneal every time. One thing F class shooters must try to do is eliminate inconsistencies. If you could reload the same piece of brass for each shot, with the same prep, you would have something. That might make an interesting video. Keepem coming!
This automated reloading setup is off the charts brother really cool.... I'm still trying to figure out my Dillon 550C but this thing you got looks like if it gets mad it'll take over the world!!! LOL
Good day! The experiment clearly showed that time is a poor criterion for the quality of annealing. This is so, because the temperature of the flame can be different due to the fact that the flow rate can be less or more, and this depends on the pressure in the cylinder. It is necessary to measure the temperature at the bottom of the sleeve so that there is no interference from the flame for the pyrometer. It is necessary to determine the temperature at the bottom of the sleeve that will give the best annealing, it can be 400-550f. The correct criterion is not time; the correct criterion is temperature. If the platform is automatically moved when temperature is reached, it will be bingo.
What your going to be worried about with over annealing is softness in the brass body. The cases may fire form too tight to the chamber. Possibly getting a buldge. Shouldn't be dangerous until you anneal the case head which you didn't. I don't recommend drying brass on a baking sheet in the oven for that reason. The most common way for a beginner to over-anneal brass.
If you do shoot them I would use starting loads (less pressure). Then check shoulder to base without sizing to check for case stretch. Which should be what happens with over annealed brass.
Thank u I’m looking to learn so I can save my 6.5remington mag brass
I like how you do things, i always learn so much, like.....keep your press clean :). I shoot 6BR and have improved my groups significantly from watching your videos, and yes i don't neck size anymore
Be carefull If you fire a case which has been annealed on the body, you take the risk of getting it firmly stuck into the chamber (because the brass has no spring back).
Man, I've been following this sh#t for a while, and I have to tell you, Great!
With similar approach (to life), I really appreciate your honesty & practicality.
Keepin' it real!
If you decide to conduct another test, please be sure to chamfer & most importantly, brush the carbon out of the necks. This usually makes a considerable difference to seating force & smoothness.
Thanks Eric for the testing.
Kind Regards...........Rotas
The word you're looking for is "INDICATIVE"....at least that's what I'd use to describe the indication of the different heat markings represented by different heat times on the OUTER-BOOM Stick part...that should keep them off your back...right?
Brother I am really getting into your videos and learning a stink load from you. I've reloaded since 1968 and been stuck in more than a few RrruuuttttZ but You-Be-DA-MAN for all my go to SHHTUFF from now on Erik Cortina.
I just bought a 100cnt box of new 30-06 LAPUA and they look about identical to how you ANNEAL the SHHTUFF you work up...of course that could be done by the new/improved AMP system but to me this is a good representation that they feel this level is one par for their new SHHTUFF so that's good enough for anyone, ME ANYWAY...OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?
Keep up the content. Purchased a 6.5 PRC for hunting and plinking. If I'm going to reload, might as well do it right from one of the best shooters.
I made a poor-man's amp annealer with a $200 induction heater and a $14 digital timer and it works great.
I would expect them to be functional but repeated scaling (the black oxide coating) will eventually change the wall thickness. If you can get them soft enough to size properly without the scale formation I suspect that's the optimal condition for a long useful life. Thanks for the video.
Running the sizing dies after annealing work hardened the brass. Just watched some guy do hardness testing and annealing on a AMP. When he sized the brass after proper annealing with measured hardness, it rose again to almost the same level of hardness as before the annealing. He used an explanation of stored energy to reflect what is being done with work (firing and sizing) hardening and releasing that energy with heat. Annealing Made Perfect RUclips channel, What happens if you anneal the same case twice?