With a friend we've been interested in all aspects of accuracy when reloading, learning a lot of techniques during many years. Last year we decided to go to our first benchrest competition, we were very surprised to see that most of these reloading techniques weren't used for benchrest shooting. As Jack said the main thing you have to improve to make smaller groups is the wind management ! Great video
Jack mentions how the brass flows relative to neck turning: top of neck is light, mid is mid, base of neck is heavy. Top of neck actually is pressured inward about 0.0005-0.0010" due to pressure acting on the end of the neck. This is why I bushing size every time to ream and dust the I/D and remove the donut.
Picked up a couple nuggets for me. I was going to order a regular steel mandrel for turning but it sounds like I better spend the extra bucks for a carbide one.
Sorting by case mass never made sense to me after I started to measure capacity and found that 2 cases of the same mass had different capacities. I did email you Erik last year to do the science on sorting by mass and never heard back. I have micro stamped my case heads with an ID # and sort based on internal capacity and previously recorded velocities. Gravimetric density is the basis behind measuring capacity. Many thanks to Jack for his great explanation.
Different capacity with same weight is really easy to explain. As he said case head can be thicker, and also inconsistent resizing can also change the internal volume.
@@br4713 Microstamp USA used to have a 1mm 0-9 set for $125 USD which I bought 2 years ago. Not sure if they still make them though. Because I pin wash, I needed something to ID the cases that wouldn't otherwise wear or wash off.
"thin to win" if you introduce more loose tolerance into the chamber neck you are introducing more run out that will be induced by the bolt ejector and extractor. And upon firing the back of the bullet will have less support to align properly when it is reformed by the rifling. A rifle barrel is a bullet reforming die.
I agree you do not need to weigh your brass, it will not improve your accuracy in any meaningful way 100% onboard with that. With that said I still weigh and sort them accordingly for a different reason. I use the weight to group my cases to assist with my ammo quality control process. Knowing case weight, bullet weight and powder charge weight allows me to weigh my loaded rounds to spot under or over powder charges easily. In addition I do water volume test of cases to learn it’s actual internal case volume. Then next turning, proper concentricity, shoulder bumping and bullet seat can all have a better chance of pull projectiles on target accurately. Great video thanks for the info and topic.
I use to weigh brass, use to uniform pockets, flash holes, tumble, ive learned now in 1000yd benchrest using Lapua brass that less fooling you do the better. I anneal after every shot on amp no tumbling or any correction.
On regular bulk brass removing the top and bottom tails does work to remove the --some-- of the extreme variations. But it does not do favours to your shooting compared to quality brass and be just done with it. However, for competitions where picking up cases from semiauto is practically impossible, it may be a feasible solution.
I just bought a Savage 6.5 today. This is my first long range gun and could use all the help I can get. I have ordered the Arken to mount on it. All of this is what I can afford. I am a little disabled right now but love to shoot. Eventually, I intend to change the stock if it proves to be a shooter. I guess I’m not sure where to start, whether bench class or F class. Also, I’m up in Montana and haven’t heard about any of these competitions. Any help would be appreciated.
Can you do a video on the EC tuner break and the next gen tuner break and tell us how they are different. I’m new to the precision shooting and I’m slowly self learning and just don’t know witch one I should get.
If the brass flow thickens the neck at the case mouth, do you re-turn necks occasionally or does sizing redistribute the brass and even the neck thickness?
Unrelated topic, Although wanted to ask the experts a reloading question. Made 175gr hornady Eldx 7×65R loads for my German drilling. Trying to keep pressure down Although maintaining good velocity so that my iron sight matches detachable scope sight in. Both match with factory spce 173gr bullets at 2550fps. Reloads are eldx at 2345 fps through my chronograph. Tight groups but 5 inches lower than factory at 100yds with a better more arrow dynamic bullet. Can a 150fps difference account for 5 inch drop in groups? Set bullets 20 thousands off lands.
@@jima1325 no reamer.. mine is a factory rifle. I can measure the chamber, but then? How long should I trim the case? What's the golden rule to follow? I do not need to follow strictly SAAMI, since I reload for my rifle only, so I don't need to let the cartridge be compatible with other rifles other than mine. I'd go with the chamber dimension - 2/1000", so that I can minimize any carbon ring. does this make sense? Thanks
This is what I gleaned from this interview: The neck turning is for thinning out the neck's brass thickness, not length, apparently they like loose fitting necks, probably to allow the bullet to center itself in the bore and not the case as Benchrest shooters usually seat bullets all the way to the lands with no jump. The rifles he is using have been reamed shorter/tighter than a factory rifle so that he has to bump the shoulder back on new brass until it just allows the bolt to close for a tight fit, the only way to do this with a factory rifle is to fire form it to the chamber then barely bump it back when you resize to allow the bolt to close, most people bump .002 or so, Benchrest shooters are more precise. He only trims the brass after 3 or so firings but did not explain what length he trimmed to, would depend on your specific caliber.
@@mamiz69 if yours is factory you could just pull the standard SAAMI reamer print and subtract .015 for trim length if it’s not given. That’s what I’ve been doing for over 30 years without issue whether Factory or one of the Reamers that I have designed for myself. Years ago I think I saw a tool that somebody made for determining this, but as long as you are not letting your cases grow to the point where there’s interference, it’s not an issue as long as they are all the same length.
So wouldn't you expand and just let the cases sit over night and then turn? If the spring back find an expander that let's them spring back to the perfect fit. Also a bucket of water to cool the beck turner down wouldn't hurt.
So he's saying, or y'all are saying if the case stretches, to end of the case mouth then that's a problem?. The case neck end does not need to touch where the rifling begins? As long as the shoulder touches,?
Typically there's freebore in the barrel between the end of the area where the brass case neck sits and where the rifling begins. Google search some cut away images or watch Ultimate Reloders video on headspace that has some cutaways
question: Is it super important to have all cases prepped to the same Overall Length? There is minimum and maximum case trimm length, should they all be the same or is it ok to have variance between the min/max?
I have a question, guys I had a 338 Lapua magnum. the brass that was shot out of that gun has been repurposed . to be used in my new 338 Lapua. I full-sized the brass as usual. now the bolt will not close on the new gun. both guns are savage rifles. Help me understand what is happening here, please.
@@seapierce so I am fairly new to reloading. I have the basic down but need advice on this problem. How would someone remedy this issue. Buy new brass?
Just incrementally screw your sizing die down until you can get the brass to reliably chamber in the new rifle. That will get your brass usable. Once you fire it in the new rifle, you can measure a fired case with a bump gauge and reduce the shoulder measurement .002 and you should be golden.
Well guys I did find the problem . There was some foreign material in the throat of the rifle. Used a bore brush and now I have a gun that chambers perfect.
So why is Jack turning his necks to 11 thousands if he knows that 8.5 shoots so well? If you are going to turn necks it is no more difficult to turn them thinner if that’s what shoots best.
I'm not disagreeing with Jack, for his purpose and starting with good brass; he is bigly correct. However, if (like me) you want the best from brass of dubious sources, or even different lots of same branded brass: after sorting by case head, weigh the brass. If only I could afford the good brass.
Out of all the steps provided by Jack Neary, not once did he mention annealing. Huh, was it just not mentioned because it's the obvious thing to do? Or is it unnecessary?
This was the first I've heard about residual oil damaging the primer causing a failure to fire. I experienced a few FTF last spring, but always attributed it to bad primers. Since August I've been using brake cleaner to clean the resizing lube off my cases prior to the final polish. Is a brass dryer really necessary? I've been laying the rinsed cases on a towel for at few hours (usually overnight) before priming and reloading.
If you are in a dry climate, you probably don't need a brass dryer. I've found that putting my wet brass on a baking sheet and in the oven (at about 180 degrees} works well.....
I think that if you were to weight sort ever case has to be exact length, primer pockets checked for depth and chamfers would have to all be exact or you would never get an exact measurement IMO so unless the weight was off by some real big number your wasting your time !
That is fine for your precision rifles in not weighing your brass and premium cases. It does benefit to weigh in a factory rifle and lessor quality brass.
It would really help to have a neighbor like him. I once had a co-worker I talked him into moving next door to me. Because he was a really good guitar player next thing you know, I was a very good guitar player.
GENTLEMEN THINK ABOUT THIS.THE PRESSURE IN THE CHAMBER CANT OPEN THE CASE NECK UNTIL THE BULLET MOVES FORWARD.IMAGINE THE WAVES BEHIND A MOTORBOAT.I BELIVE THIS MIGHT BE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE IN A CASE NECK. THE BRASS ROLLING FOREWARD IN A CIRCULAR WAVE.
I have a $1200 rifle that will shoot .3” groups out to 200m and .6” groups out to 400m and about 1.5” out to 500m with virtually no wind. Wind will move it 5” with a 90 degree wind at 2mph. So if the wind changes by 2mph over the distance in total my impact point has shifted by 5”. How many people do you know that can tell the wind speed over half a km to with in 1mph (2.5”). If you spend $10000 on a f Rifle to to tighten up that 1.5” group to 0.5” at 500m it is still going to be moved by the wind 2.5” for every 1mph the wind call is out.
Yeah…. I’m calling bogus. It and you may have done it one time. But that always turns into “all day long” on the internet. That would be the same as me saying one of my rifles that I shot 4 different 5 shot groups at a grand with and the groups were recorded as follows : 2.7”, 2.9”, 3.6”, 3.4”, and 7.4” is a sub half moa rifle. Is it? I don’t know. The groups average out to say so, most times at 100 it’s half moa or better. But is it truly that good? For a rifle I have under $2500 in? I’ll never know. Because I’ve not duplicated it since. If you can duplicate those results, with a factory rifle, like you say, then you should be winning trophies left and right. And that’s coming from someone who doesn’t compete and doesn’t care to
Once you get your rifle shooting those tight groups , the fine signs of wind effect become obvious if you honestly call your shots. Most Palma and F Class can make 0.25MOA calls consistently once they understand the flags and mirage signals - unfortunately you need trigger time to do this and be brutally honest about what you screw up in the shot.
Yep but sadly I can’t read wind for shit. So vertically the rifle will shoot great. But minor wind will throw that shot off massively. The point I was trying to make was that the person correcting for wind and pulling the trigger is making far more difference than than the rifle. Sorry for the slow reply this only just came up as a notification on RUclips.
Watch full interview here:
ruclips.net/video/Ord0NguzRXU/видео.html
This video is GOLD! No internet lore, no bs, no "gunshop employee" nonsense. Thank you!
Anyone who neck turns should listen to this, sometimes more clearance is better,, this episode is just gold 👌
With a friend we've been interested in all aspects of accuracy when reloading, learning a lot of techniques during many years. Last year we decided to go to our first benchrest competition, we were very surprised to see that most of these reloading techniques weren't used for benchrest shooting. As Jack said the main thing you have to improve to make smaller groups is the wind management ! Great video
Erik ,makes 1st class vids! And he doesn’t act like a snob !!👍🏻👍🎯
Jack mentions how the brass flows relative to neck turning: top of neck is light, mid is mid, base of neck is heavy. Top of neck actually is pressured inward about 0.0005-0.0010" due to pressure acting on the end of the neck. This is why I bushing size every time to ream and dust the I/D and remove the donut.
Thanks for helping us figure out the nuance of reloading!!
You bet!
More jack! This made my day
Very good, food for thought!
Picked up a couple nuggets for me. I was going to order a regular steel mandrel for turning but it sounds like I better spend the extra bucks for a carbide one.
Sorting by case mass never made sense to me after I started to measure capacity and found that 2 cases of the same mass had different capacities. I did email you Erik last year to do the science on sorting by mass and never heard back. I have micro stamped my case heads with an ID # and sort based on internal capacity and previously recorded velocities. Gravimetric density is the basis behind measuring capacity. Many thanks to Jack for his great explanation.
Different capacity with same weight is really easy to explain. As he said case head can be thicker, and also inconsistent resizing can also change the internal volume.
How did you "micro stamped" your cases ?
@@br4713 Microstamp USA used to have a 1mm 0-9 set for $125 USD which I bought 2 years ago. Not sure if they still make them though. Because I pin wash, I needed something to ID the cases that wouldn't otherwise wear or wash off.
"thin to win" if you introduce more loose tolerance into the chamber neck you are introducing more run out that will be induced by the bolt ejector and extractor. And upon firing the back of the bullet will have less support to align properly when it is reformed by the rifling. A rifle barrel is a bullet reforming die.
I agree you do not need to weigh your brass, it will not improve your accuracy in any meaningful way 100% onboard with that. With that said I still weigh and sort them accordingly for a different reason. I use the weight to group my cases to assist with my ammo quality control process. Knowing case weight, bullet weight and powder charge weight allows me to weigh my loaded rounds to spot under or over powder charges easily. In addition I do water volume test of cases to learn it’s actual internal case volume. Then next turning, proper concentricity, shoulder bumping and bullet seat can all have a better chance of pull projectiles on target accurately. Great video thanks for the info and topic.
From the example of the competitor who accidentally turned his necks too thin, do you think it was the thin neck or the extra clearance that helped?
So I've been doing it right all this time when forming 6ppc brass.
Fantastic quality video!
Do you anneal before or after turning the necks?
I use to weigh brass, use to uniform pockets, flash holes, tumble, ive learned now in 1000yd benchrest using Lapua brass that less fooling you do the better. I anneal after every shot on amp no tumbling or any correction.
What size is Jack referring to when says 8 or 8 5 is that .008 and .0085
Great song at the end.
On regular bulk brass removing the top and bottom tails does work to remove the --some-- of the extreme variations. But it does not do favours to your shooting compared to quality brass and be just done with it.
However, for competitions where picking up cases from semiauto is practically impossible, it may be a feasible solution.
Good interview.
When are you going to start selling Cortina Precision Polos?
"I have a couple friends with tunnels" is the biggest low-key flex ever.
I just bought a Savage 6.5 today. This is my first long range gun and could use all the help I can get. I have ordered the Arken to mount on it. All of this is what I can afford. I am a little disabled right now but love to shoot. Eventually, I intend to change the stock if it proves to be a shooter. I guess I’m not sure where to start, whether bench class or F class. Also, I’m up in Montana and haven’t heard about any of these competitions. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks Great video
Can you do a video on the EC tuner break and the next gen tuner break and tell us how they are different. I’m new to the precision shooting and I’m slowly self learning and just don’t know witch one I should get.
After firing a few time do you return your necks our leave it as is and how many firings do you do on a piece of brass
If the brass flow thickens the neck at the case mouth, do you re-turn necks occasionally or does sizing redistribute the brass and even the neck thickness?
Unrelated topic, Although wanted to ask the experts a reloading question. Made 175gr hornady Eldx 7×65R loads for my German drilling. Trying to keep pressure down Although maintaining good velocity so that my iron sight matches detachable scope sight in. Both match with factory spce 173gr bullets at 2550fps. Reloads are eldx at 2345 fps through my chronograph. Tight groups but 5 inches lower than factory at 100yds with a better more arrow dynamic bullet. Can a 150fps difference account for 5 inch drop in groups? Set bullets 20 thousands off lands.
Good info for sure
Neck trimming: to what length? What's the process to decide the right brass length for your own chamber? TIA!!
Based on the reamer used to cut your chamber. The reamer print will tell you.
@@jima1325 no reamer.. mine is a factory rifle. I can measure the chamber, but then? How long should I trim the case? What's the golden rule to follow? I do not need to follow strictly SAAMI, since I reload for my rifle only, so I don't need to let the cartridge be compatible with other rifles other than mine. I'd go with the chamber dimension - 2/1000", so that I can minimize any carbon ring. does this make sense? Thanks
Erik has discussed this on his earlier videos, go into his videos and there I multiple videos on it.
This is what I gleaned from this interview: The neck turning is for thinning out the neck's brass thickness, not length, apparently they like loose fitting necks, probably to allow the bullet to center itself in the bore and not the case as Benchrest shooters usually seat bullets all the way to the lands with no jump. The rifles he is using have been reamed shorter/tighter than a factory rifle so that he has to bump the shoulder back on new brass until it just allows the bolt to close for a tight fit, the only way to do this with a factory rifle is to fire form it to the chamber then barely bump it back when you resize to allow the bolt to close, most people bump .002 or so, Benchrest shooters are more precise. He only trims the brass after 3 or so firings but did not explain what length he trimmed to, would depend on your specific caliber.
@@mamiz69 if yours is factory you could just pull the standard SAAMI reamer print and subtract .015 for trim length if it’s not given. That’s what I’ve been doing for over 30 years without issue whether Factory or one of the Reamers that I have designed for myself.
Years ago I think I saw a tool that somebody made for determining this, but as long as you are not letting your cases grow to the point where there’s interference, it’s not an issue as long as they are all the same length.
So wouldn't you expand and just let the cases sit over night and then turn?
If the spring back find an expander that let's them spring back to the perfect fit.
Also a bucket of water to cool the beck turner down wouldn't hurt.
Has anyone tried denatured alcohol instead of acetone?
So he's saying, or y'all are saying if the case stretches, to end of the case mouth then that's a problem?. The case neck end does not need to touch where the rifling begins? As long as the shoulder touches,?
Typically there's freebore in the barrel between the end of the area where the brass case neck sits and where the rifling begins. Google search some cut away images or watch Ultimate Reloders video on headspace that has some cutaways
question: Is it super important to have all cases prepped to the same Overall Length? There is minimum and maximum case trimm length, should they all be the same or is it ok to have variance between the min/max?
I have a question, guys I had a 338 Lapua magnum. the brass that was shot out of that gun has been repurposed . to be used in my new 338 Lapua. I full-sized the brass as usual. now the bolt will not close on the new gun. both guns are savage rifles. Help me understand what is happening here, please.
Sounds like your new gun has a slightly smaller chamber than the first one.
@@seapierce so I am fairly new to reloading. I have the basic down but need advice on this problem. How would someone remedy this issue. Buy new brass?
Just incrementally screw your sizing die down until you can get the brass to reliably chamber in the new rifle. That will get your brass usable. Once you fire it in the new rifle, you can measure a fired case with a bump gauge and reduce the shoulder measurement .002 and you should be golden.
Well guys I did find the problem . There was some foreign material in the throat of the rifle. Used a bore brush and now I have a gun that chambers perfect.
So why is Jack turning his necks to 11 thousands if he knows that 8.5 shoots so well? If you are going to turn necks it is no more difficult to turn them thinner if that’s what shoots best.
Acetone bath? Please expand
Tap magic,a dab ,makes cleaner cuts !
Where do I get a Nielsen Neck turner?
They are no longer made/available.
I'm not disagreeing with Jack, for his purpose and starting with good brass; he is bigly correct.
However, if (like me) you want the best from brass of dubious sources, or even different lots of same branded brass: after sorting by case head, weigh the brass.
If only I could afford the good brass.
Out of all the steps provided by Jack Neary, not once did he mention annealing. Huh, was it just not mentioned because it's the obvious thing to do? Or is it unnecessary?
They don’t anneal their brass. They change bushings and shoulder bump to compensate.
I thought in one of your interviews a competitor had abandoned neck turning? Did I just have too many beers lol?
This was the first I've heard about residual oil damaging the primer causing a failure to fire. I experienced a few FTF last spring, but always attributed it to bad primers. Since August I've been using brake cleaner to clean the resizing lube off my cases prior to the final polish.
Is a brass dryer really necessary? I've been laying the rinsed cases on a towel for at few hours (usually overnight) before priming and reloading.
If you are in a dry climate, you probably don't need a brass dryer. I've found that putting my wet brass on a baking sheet and in the oven (at about 180 degrees} works well.....
I use a food dehydrator. Works great and I already had one. Call it freedom jerky!
@@mattmckenzie1653😊😊😊
1 minutes into the conversation, I thought to myself. Well here is some intelligent conversation!
I think that if you were to weight sort ever case has to be exact length, primer pockets checked for depth and chamfers would have to all be exact or you would never get an exact measurement IMO so unless the weight was off by some real big number your wasting your time !
Dang Keith you just spread my secret
Nice. #!!! 😊😊😊
That is fine for your precision rifles in not weighing your brass and premium cases. It does benefit to weigh in a factory rifle and lessor quality brass.
I live close to Mr. Neary...I wish i was his neighbor.
It would really help to have a neighbor like him. I once had a co-worker I talked him into moving next door to me. Because he was a really good guitar player next thing you know, I was a very good guitar player.
GENTLEMEN THINK ABOUT THIS.THE PRESSURE IN THE CHAMBER CANT OPEN THE CASE NECK UNTIL THE BULLET MOVES FORWARD.IMAGINE THE WAVES BEHIND A MOTORBOAT.I BELIVE THIS MIGHT BE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE IN A CASE NECK. THE BRASS ROLLING FOREWARD IN A CIRCULAR WAVE.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
I have a $1200 rifle that will shoot .3” groups out to 200m and .6” groups out to 400m and about 1.5” out to 500m with virtually no wind.
Wind will move it 5” with a 90 degree wind at 2mph.
So if the wind changes by 2mph over the distance in total my impact point has shifted by 5”.
How many people do you know that can tell the wind speed over half a km to with in 1mph (2.5”).
If you spend $10000 on a f
Rifle to to tighten up that 1.5” group to 0.5” at 500m it is still going to be moved by the wind 2.5” for every 1mph the wind call is out.
If your rifle can really shoot that good, you could win many championships.
Yeah…. I’m calling bogus. It and you may have done it one time. But that always turns into “all day long” on the internet. That would be the same as me saying one of my rifles that I shot 4 different 5 shot groups at a grand with and the groups were recorded as follows : 2.7”, 2.9”, 3.6”, 3.4”, and 7.4” is a sub half moa rifle. Is it? I don’t know. The groups average out to say so, most times at 100 it’s half moa or better. But is it truly that good? For a rifle I have under $2500 in? I’ll never know. Because I’ve not duplicated it since. If you can duplicate those results, with a factory rifle, like you say, then you should be winning trophies left and right. And that’s coming from someone who doesn’t compete and doesn’t care to
Once you get your rifle shooting those tight groups , the fine signs of wind effect become obvious if you honestly call your shots. Most Palma and F Class can make 0.25MOA calls consistently once they understand the flags and mirage signals - unfortunately you need trigger time to do this and be brutally honest about what you screw up in the shot.
Yep but sadly I can’t read wind for shit. So vertically the rifle will shoot great.
But minor wind will throw that shot off massively.
The point I was trying to make was that the person correcting for wind and pulling the trigger is making far more difference than than the rifle.
Sorry for the slow reply this only just came up as a notification on RUclips.
First!
dude at lapua doesnt even say lapua correctly 😂
He is not lapua guy , he’s sponsored by them if you don’t know that you have no business criticizing