Brass Annealing Guide
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Visit the forums at www.gunhive.com if you have any specific annealing questions.
In this video we demonstrate proper brass annealing processes. With so many videos on the subject, the majority of which are completely incorrect, we thought it was time to do our own. We hope this helps those of you that are going to be venturing into annealing get it done right without any undue stress.
I've watched pretty much every single video RUclips has on this subject and the only thing I've learned is everyone has a different opinion on the subject... some people say color has absolutely nothing to do with anything, some say you want to go until the brass just starts to glow, some are like you saying it's ruining you brass if you see any amount of glowing in the brass, some are using these DIY induction annealers where the brass glows bright, and some say only use an AMP annealer. I've just been using those Little Crow annealing mandrels that you chuck up into a drill and a single torch and I do everything in a dark room. I pull the brass out of the flame as soon as I see the flame starting to get that orange color but the brass hasn't really started glowing yet. My only problem is I don't feel like I'm getting the best consistency that way compared to an automated annealing machine like you're using here but I'm also not really ready to invest the money on an AMP or Bench Source machine either because there's so many different opinions that I don't know if its worth the investment...
Yep, So far ive learned that there is no right way to do it. lol
I have watched a lot of videos on this subject as well and I am going to adapt the principal shown in this video. I just ordered a annealer from AGS Custom this morning. It is reasonably priced and will work for my reloading needs.
I went with an Annealeez gen 4 and just finished my first few batches, 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 Grendel. Couldn't be happier! Takes a bit of trial and error to get it dialed in but once you do it's golden!
I couldn’t agree more with the original comment. I saw the Little Crow heat sink just yesterday and my first thought was “neat… but how to I stay consistent?”
Anealing is a misconception, it should be called tempering.
I have ruined brass before I found this out.
Anealing means taking it to dead soft, tempering, which is what's going on here.
You are looking for the bronze tempering color, not purple, or black, which would mean dead soft.
Calling it Anealing is wrong, but I guess everyone is calling it that.
I'm glad you brought up the tempering color, I was doing it wrong until I saw this video.
I am a 30-year plumber and I have seen many guys that were soldering copper greatly overheat the pipe and turn it all kinds of cool looking colors and wind up with leaks
I just got an annealer,thank you for this video.
As always, fantastic video with clear and helpful information. Very few resources as well thought out as yours tend to be.
Very interesting video. Thanks. I’ve never bothered with annealing so far but now that I form cases from other parent cases for a number of rifles and don’t really love trimming brass it seems prudent to make the formed and trimmed cases I do have last as long as they can.
Also bought some Peterson and lapua cases for my .300 win. Paid a pretty penny for them, might be worth the effort
Erik Cortina annealed some brass up to 15 sec and loaded them, now you do it.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll probably remove my vid soon since I think I have my questions answered and I'm incorrect, I doubt youtube needs another brass burning vid and maybe there is no need for any annealing vids after this one. Everything you said makes sense. I annealed a couple hundred of my good rifle brass manually doing just what you said. You do start to see things in a darker room after a couple hundred rounds. Thanks again
Good info. Should then put each one through the sizing die to see how they conform with pressure.
I've watched a bunch of videos on annealing, but perfect explanation here👍
Based on my interest in chemistry videos, the orange flame is more likely zinc. Zinc burning off can do that
Excellent video . Thank you.
Wow that fancy stuff...I just use a rotating plate with a dish of water and hand torch and after 3 to 4 sec knock over and replace with new casing but this is awesome if you have the money.
Very well explained.
So many people are doing it wrong out there.
Love the videos. Thanks.
Thank you so much for time to explain the process Sir!
Thank you that was very helpful. I'm just using a blow torch and the shell in my drill.
Thank you! Thank you! THANK YOU!!!! When I was learning how to anneal my brass I was watching videos on here and I'm glad I questioned the process I was being shown, because everyone was doing it wrong. Dangerously wrong! Getting that brass to cherry red and beyond. So dangerous. So also if you need more proof of correct annealing you can use vise grips and set them to squeeze the brass and release. If it crushes then it's over annealed and it's too soft and if it springs back to original shape then the anneal was a success. I read that somewhere and have used it in my reloading. ( Correct me if I'm incorrect please).
thanks for sacrificing those brass for us
Great Video thanks. I have the bench source annealer also and really like how you used the hose to the torches from the tank or bottles. Going to make that change soon. Thanks again
This is a great video and I believe right on. I annealed some .308 brass and ended up over annealing just like he speaks up. It was a lot tougher to size this over annealed brass.
I would think over annealed brass would be softer. Why would that make it harder for sizing?
@@pepelapiu2004 removes the neccasary metals to make it actual brass and turns it into a new metal/substance.
I'm assuming you don't want to set up this station right beside your powder cache.
Sorry. New shooter long time goldsmith. You are not truly annealing this brass. You are partially annealing it. Thats a good thing since full anneal equal butter. One last thing, annealing brass fully for working eg metalsmithing require dullish red then air cooling. Water cooling actually rehardens or quenches the brass somewhat.
Great vid, very well explained ! 👍
There was some good information in this video. If you happen to have an automated motorized annealing machine then this is probably a great video. However most people looking up you tube videos about annealing are beginners with a blow torch.
AMP has a good article on the requirements for brass cartridge annealing, brass doesn't melt until roughly 1600F. Annealing the neck between 700 and 800F is all that's required, don't over anneal the case body or webbing. Use tempilaq and remove the guess work
go down to box store get the largest copper fitting reducer you can find. start stretching it by beating on outside large end on a steel mandrel of some sort. everything you hit it it stretches and in short order you have made it larger. as it gets larger it gets harder until it doesn't want to stretch. now you annealing it with your torch and then it once again becomes pliable, you could do this many times increasing the diameter but material gets thinner as it gets thinner it will work harden guicker. this is the same process men go through when they are put into stressful situations for prolonged time (it will try your metal of what sort it is) you to can become work hardened .
Tempilaq takes out the guesswork, a jar is like 30 bucks on amazon. You want to shoot for 650°f iirc.
I anneal my magnum cases in a 17mm six-sided socket welded and trued to a turned-down 3/8" bolt. The bolt is then tightened into a cordless drill, which I run at high speed. I do it in a semi-darkened room and flip the case into the water AS SOON as I see the faintest orange glow. I use one Bernz-o-matic torch; it takes maybe ten seconds to do a case. I'm not sure because I have never actually timed the process. I'm too busy to do it, you know. They come out looking just like Uncle Sam did it...
Wouldn't the rapid cooling of the brass effectively temper it and make it harder, nullifying the whole annealing process?
Not arguing here. I am just trying to figure out if I should quench my brass or not.
I'd be very interested to know what temperature the neck needs to be properly annealed. I'm certain there's published data out there and an Infrared Thermometer to verify it.
Great video buddy 👍🏼🇺🇸
I just set up my used Ken Light BC-1000 Annealer, but I'm not sure if I'm getting the brass hot enough. I've tried running it with the lights off, but can't see any hint of (orange) color change in the brass. Afterwards, the 6.5 Creedmoor brass is discolored around the neck, just like annealed brass I see at the rifle range. I just don't know if I'm getting the brass hot enough to accomplish anything.
Your examples of various annealing times (starting at 6:47) is very helpful. I guess what I'm wondering is: What does under annealed brass look like? Will it still have the color markings of the 3-second brass case? What does 2-second (or 1-second) brass look like?
You are pretty much doing it spot on, a warning on the bras is you dont want any silver on the case
If in doubt get some tempilaq, even that first one at just over 3 secs was slightly over, your times are likely to be around 3 to 4 secs for 308 size brass but 223 could be 2 or under, the brass should not look as good as new Lapua or you likely you cooked it, nice vid to show what you want as i have been horridied by what others have done to their brass
Bear in mind different brass may take longer or shorter, for instance my 300 wsm brass takes 4.5 secs but my 204 brass takes 2 secs, if in doubt get some tempilaq
The best video
Just found I had cooked a few 223 cases by over-annealing,[no neck tension] have to be more aware of time in the flame
When does the brass need anealing? Can casings be “re-annealed” over and over?
Yes you can anneal after every firing
Each brass batch/type is its own variables but basically after 4 or 5 firings typical brass should be annealed. You can do this as many times as you want until the brass is no good. Brass will be at end of life when things like primer pockets start to loosen up, you see a head separation line, etc. However, as is demonstrated in this video, if you anneal and it changes color, that piece is now at end of life. So, when you cases that are bad for reasons that make them unusable you can save those for setting up your annealer and not worry about accidentally ruining a piece of good brass.
Do it after every 3.
Anneal resize then anneal again lol.
Wow your voice sounds like George Lucas! Nice video and thanks.
No, it sounds like Jim Henson and Kermit the Frog.
How about the use of induction annealing? I have an accurate and repeatable induction annealer, but it isnt the sophisticated AMP. Given that there is no flame involved, is the use of Tempilaq the only way of determining the needed anneal time? Is 750F correct for rifle brass? A more up to date video around the use of inductive annealing would be very informative.
I did my .222 brass the same way just before the flame color changes ,I drop the case. The cases don't have a bluish color at all when doing it this way. Just deep golden brass color. Is this right or do I under anneal ? Thanks. Informative video.
Good info , Thanks
What about using Tempilaq 750 degree to be confident you’ve got the correct temperature?
Excellent!
I have the same machine you do but my anneal mark never looks as defined as yours does.
Great video man, very informative. I'm just getting started into handloading my own rounds, and one of the big reasons was because I love my World War 2 Rifles.
My question for you is I'm wanting to load 7.7 Arisaka rounds, and for various reasons (expense mostly) it seems better to convert 30-06 into 7.7 brass. I would be better off annealing it once I have converted it, right? Thanks for the answer ahead of time.
Yes, after the work is done, I'd anneal, and then do a final pass through the last sizing die. If drastic changes are made, often annealing between steps can solve some problems as well.
+primalrights thanks for the speedy reply man, keep up the good work on the videos
I shoot .303 British, brass is getting very expensive and very scarce. This is of the utmost importance to me.
Brass is annealed between 600 to 800 degrees.So what do you bass you theory pon? Im not being a smart ass.I welded for 28 years, then worked as a Welding Inspector for 8. years. I also have a Degree in Metallurgy Engineering.
We know that brass is annealed between 600 to 750 Degrees F.
So do you think the brass in your viodeo reached that temperature in 3.2 seconds running a duel torch? Have you checked it with a Lazer, or with a 700 Degree TempStick or TempLac?
I used to use a Gas Torch but now use the Electric Amp Annealer.. which also destroys one brass to decode each Lot# but thats okay.
Tell me what you think.I'd love to hear it.I may learn something.Thanks.Happy New Year!
My brass is very slightly discolored and it ends just below the shoulder where the case is statightened out its 308 winchester cartridges and I have an annealeez machine what speed and where should the torch be and I was told the inner blue flame should not touch the case the outer almost invisible part like yours should Plz help there no silver or odd color or just barely
I HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION ....... If brass is over annealed, can you tumble in steel rods for say 3 hours to harden it back up?
Resizing hardens it by miles beyond what tumbling can do.
what are the results of UNDER annealing I understand how tgey should look ...great video btw luv ur channel but what happens if you under anneal, Can you fire that case? accuracy and consistency drops off its such a fine line so outside of the color what else will happen with under annealed brass
Hello, I have the Annealeez 2.0 and when I anneal I am not over annealing, but maybe not enough. I do not get that same tarnished color. It is more of a shinny silver. Is that odd?
Are you using Tempalac? (or Tempilac?)
What type of fuel do you use or recommend for annealing brass cases?
i have been reloading for a long time now but never annealed my brass. tell me why you do this , what does it do to the brass. i get my failure at the bottom form to many reloading .how often do you anneal your brass every time or there time?
I have one flame that rotates a total of 6 secs is that ok? I use a bustfire annealer it rotates on single flame for actually 5.4 sec? Someone give me advice lol I don’t wanna mess up my brass this stuff is getting quite pricey
would you recommend having the brass tumbled/washed first or can you anneal straight from firing? Thank you.
+daryl hills If you have the time and inclination, I think clean brass will anneal more uniformly. However, in my own experimentation, I have not noticed a significant difference between annealing clean brass and dirty brass.
+primalrights thank you for your reply, it is much appreciated.
many questions how often should this be done, will it make the shells last longer, what is the name of your annealer model number, then do you case trim and clean brass. thanks great video.
I am not sure why, as I am no metallurgist, only know from experience.
What would annealing time if you use just one torch?
I’m curious! how much material was cooked out when it went beet red!
My. 223 turns silver, almost like nickle plated on the neck.
What about brass coated with nickel or what ever the coating may be vs straight brass?
Since you are using a dual flame set up, that would affect the time you expose the brass to the flame correct? I've been annealing but putting brass on a drill and running on a single flame torch for a 4 second count. My brass looks like your 3 second annealed brass, but it's my first time annealing brass so I'm still not 100% sure on the process yet.
what are your thoughts in annealing commercial brass? is it a waste of time and money?
annealing commercial brass vs not annealing, will it still last longer or won't make much of a difference to justify the cost of buying a annealing machine?
thanks
+mastalee All brass can benefit from the uniformity offered by annealing.
+primalrights . I asked cause someone mentioned if your annealing commercial brass it's waste. but I assume it's his own opinion. but then again I don't know much about annealing.
any guess how more commercial brass will last when annealed vs not being annealed?
+mastalee It's not a waste if it is a quality commercial case. As was said above...it's all about consistency in your cases from one to another. You also if not abused can extend the life of your cartridge cases.
+Ryan Taylor if they are not abused how much or many times can you reload the same case with annealing and not annealing?
+mastalee The answer to this question is entirely predicated upon the dimensions of your chamber as compared to the dimensions of your sizing die. Properly fit sizing dies can produce over 60 firings on good brass with annealing. Without, that may still be the case, depending upon the sized brass fitment to the chamber.
What do you think about the hot sand method for annealing brass?
what is the deal about this annealing? I am reloading Grendel now. so how many times i can reuse the case when its never annealed vs it is annealed once... do we really NEED to anneal?
To quench or not to quench???
I already completed sizing all my old once fired 7.62 NATO brass, but wanted to anneal it after noticing a few split necks after 2nd firing.
Is it OK to anneal brass after it's all been sized and polished?
Yes, but it is likely it may need sized and tumbling again afterwards.
I think you should turn down your heat on your touches and increase the time a bit. To get a more even annealing!? my two cents......
Annealed is annealed. The case is spinning. It's even. :)
Wouldn't using some 750 degree Tempilac insure more accurate annealing? Paint it on the inside of the case neck, then adjust your time in the flame so that the tempilac just goes to clear as the brass is rotated out. Then you're insured that the brass hit the correct temperature. No worries about over or under annealing.
No, your faith in tempilac is misplaced.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Indeed we will. There is no "set" temperature at which all brass, in all environments, in all flame conditions, is properly annealed. All brass is different. Even different batches from the same manufacturer can be drastically different. The method outlined in this video was developed with the help of a metallurgist and millions of dollars of equipment. My method accounts for ALL of the variables at play here. Color change paint, does not. Pure and simple.
I'm not asking you to do anything. The world is full of skeptics. I don't intend on changing that. Use my method, or don't. I am not sitting around holding my breath hoping you do.
AMP…..no guessing no wondering which internet metallurgists are correct
I need to reform some brass to make cases for .45-75 Win, which has the shoulder about halfway down the case. Any tips on annealing in that circumstance? Can you safely anneal that far down? If so, any tips on how to accomplish it?
I’ve not done that. If I were to try it would be with mapp gas and I’d run really hot and short time.
I have been reloading for about a year now and never heard of this. Thanks for showing the right way to do it for people like myself. My question for you is, when is this needed? After the second or third use of a case?
I have a really nice machine as shown in the video, so I do it every firing. It is really only necessary every 3-5 firings, but it takes me so little effort... why not?
I realize this is an old question it felt it should be answered. If you are doing precision rifle cartridges and absolutely need the very best consistency you will want to anneal after every firing and before sizing. If you arent that anal about consistency then after every third firing is acceptable. Some people get by with .5" groups without annealing all the way til the primer pocket wears out (at which point the brass is useless). It really just does two things; makes the brass somewhat soft for consistent sizing, and keeps it from work hardening and splitting prematurely.
@@primalrights thanks for mentioning after 3-5 firings. I've been trying to figure that out on my 6.5 Grendel.
I'd be very interested in how using just one tourch changes the timing. Many DIYers use one tourch.
Mines on the heat for about 3-4 seconds and clearly sees annealing ring marks. Also used 750*F Tempilaq. But oddly, when I'm sizing.. The neck feels stiffer when exiting the expanding ball. Isnt it suppose to be easier (softer)? Is it bad if im not reaching per se 700*F or lower?
If I was that worried I would have it metallurgic checked on every timed piece...
Main result is you shooting,not collor of you brase.
For mee anealing its just for mmaking brass softer,when you size case its hold good numbers on calipers.
Please, say me how much seconds is normal? My eng very bad((
I'm hoping you will respond to this. For years I have been using one of the Ken Light Manufacturing annealers www.kenlightmfg.com/products.html which was about the best machine on the market back in 08 when I bought it. I have always set my brass up to where with all the lights out so its completely dark the case necks just barely and I mean barely start to glow faint orange with no flame color change. I am thinking this is just right because the case mouths do soften but they aren't too soft. Is this an acceptable technique for judging proper heat? The speed is not controllable on this unit only the torch height, distance from the case and you get some side to side angular play also. With a lot of trial and error I can get a fairly even level annealing heat line on the case.
Everyone seems to have their own way of setting up. Some are right, others are flat wrong. If you notice the disparity between when the flame changes orange in our video here, compared to when the neck starts glowing... you'll notice that I consider that to be over-annealed. You'll have to use your judgement and decide which way is acceptable for you.
Man i want to become your disciple
Would You anneal nickel plated cases? If you do what is the procedure
I do not recommend using nickel plated cases.
What about getting a box of brass from a manufacturer thats tarnished and discolored at the case neck? Is that bad or can you only tell by the flame during annealing process? What negative effects does the tarnishing have on a cartridge? Thank you
Brass from manufacturers has likely been annealed and then has sat around for an extended period of time. That time, will give it that bluish discoloration. This is perfectly normal and expected. Some manufacturers will subsequently tumble/polish the discoloration off due to some people not knowing what the annealing marks are, and incorrectly thinking there is something wrong with the brass.
@@primalrights thank yall kindly
What temperature Tempilaq do you recommend? I see a lot of guys using green 750*F, but I am pretty sure that when I purchase my Bench source annealer that they recommended yellow 650*F.
+Rob Graff We do not recommend tempilaq. That is basically the entire point of this video. :)
Is it possible to re-anneal an overheated cartridge in order to repair it?
i would think you could work harden the brass and then anneal properly only if it wasnt drastically heated beyond use.
what is the cutoff point? IDK. i think that is just as subjective as the rest of this process.
Do you anneal after 2 or 3 firings? Also do you resize them after you anneal? I am shooting 6.5 CM
I anneal every firing. If I didn't have an automated machine, I might only do it every 3rd firing.
Will annealing still work if you have reloaded brass a couple times before without doing it?
Yes
Should annealing be done before or after resizing, or does it matter?
Before.
Hey there thanks for the info here. when doing a simple necking up like from. 243 win to .260 rem, would you recommend annealing first and then sizing? thanks.
You should be fine by annealing after you've completed necking up. Then after that annealing, make a pass through a sizing die to even things out.
primalrights ahhh awesome man, great advice. sounds good thank you for the reply!
Don't you want to rapidly cool (i.e. quenching) after the annealing process or will air cooling be ok?
Air cooling is just fine. Quenching does nothing other than get the brass wet.
@@primalrights Quenching will make it hard again
Where did you get your equipment?
How often do you anneal your cases ? Is there any limit to how many times you can anneal Brass Cartridges ?
+Gun Slinger I do it every firing. If I didn't have the machine, I would do it less, but it really isn't much work at all to get it done with the bench source, so I do it every time to keep things as happy as possible.
+primalrights Many Thanks for your prompt and informative reply , Keep your videos coming
Has anything changed in your strategy since making this video over seven years ago? I just ordered a bench source so I’m curious.
I use swirl flame torches. That’s it. 😉
@@primalrights thank you. I just got the annealer delivered today so I’m excited to follow your strategy.
Phisics is ultimate .
If George Lucas was giving a tutorial on annealing brass.
I see some ppl using water. I would think quenching would make the case hard
Brass gets hard from being worked, steel hardens from being heated.
I know that most metals get softer when heated. And I know that some metals will get harder, or tempered when cooled rapidly. But I am not sure if brass falls in this category or not.
I've seen a couple of induction annealing machines. They say it is more precise. What's your experience on those? They are VERY expensive, do you think they are worth the extra money?? Very informative!
I do not currently have any experience with induction annealers.
Are you selling these? If the price is reasonable I would like to buy one minus the torches.
Gil Carleton The annealing machine in this video is sold by Bench Source. Google should be able to point you in the right direction. :)
Thanks for video! Just a few questions??
Should the same brass be annealed before every reload?
Does annealing cause split on the case neck during resizing process of reloading?
What is the most important reason for annealing brass?
It is to prevent the neck from splitting for as many loadings as possible. Do it as often as your brass is worth to you. If it's $3 a piece or an annoying to form wildcat, feel free to do it every time or every other time.
@@spraynpray thank you!
Greg, what about cooling? Water? or Air? Does it matter?
+Will Sartin (5RWill) Doesn't really matter. Heating is what sets the grain structure, so I just let them air cool. No need to get them wet.
I see thanks.
The Bench-Source Annealer blows air from the fan under the rotating plate to keep the head of the case cool (as much as possible) while annealing.
Is it better to anneal after sizing and trimming or beforehand?
Anneal before sizing and trimming. During annealing, the brass may change shape slightly as the stress is relieved. Sizing fixes this. After sizing, the brass will have lube on it, which needs to be tumbled off. This tumbling will also remove/smooth the oxidization from annealing, which if left in place will result in severe seating pressure issues. After tumbling, the brass will be clean, and can be trimmed to remove excess or non-uniform length left from the sizing process.
primalrights Thanks much!
Dam. That’s a $530.00 machine. I’ll stick with my torch and drill with socket.
What machine is that? Where can it be purchased?
Bench Source. You can find it here: www.bench-source.com/id81.html