Playing without Shoulder rest! Yes Or No?
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- Опубликовано: 19 мар 2018
- In this video I want to show my way of playing without Shoulder rest, and make clear that it is a really different approach!
The goal is to be able to feel comfortable and extremely free.
For each people the process is different, this one is mine, and I am glad to share it if it can help.
Shifting and vibrato are the recurrent issues of playing without shoulder rest, so you will have my little insight on the question)
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One of the best tutorial on youtube
Now in retirement, the few months I've been playing without a shoulder rest have been a revelation and a relief. Before I could play the violin for only about 20 minutes a day, because more practice would be risking getting residual neck pain. And I tried four shoulder rests. So, no shoulder rest, no pain, and it seems like a more natural way to hold the violin.
As limited as my early experiences on violin were -- I played piano and wind instruments mainly -- I find violin the most challenging and I love the literature. Years ago, I played through most of the violin literature on flute, and played one of the movements from Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole for a few audition tapes, just to throw in something no flutist would be playing.
Except for the Baroque period, the flute literature is comparatively limited. When I just turned twenty, I went to Vienna to study, and to prepare to enter the competition in Geneva. In Vienna though, I had this epiphany that I wanted to do something other than music, and did it. I chose another career.
But back to violin in old age, paradoxically, playing without a shoulder rest made both arm and wrist vibrato easier for me. I'm kind of in the process of trying to make it sound real, and my violin playing in general less excruciating to hear, something I notice mainly when I record myself and listen to it. When I'm playing, it's just fun.
Dear Timzart7, interesting to read, that You came to studies in Vienna, and chose another career.... Have a similar way and still love and play music, too!
I studied classical guitar, as an adult harp, and now picked the violin, which has some tradition in our family... best regards from Vienna!
After many years playing I gave up playing with a shoulder rest 2 years ago. I did have some difficulty in obtaining a decent vibrato, but resolved that problem with extra practice (much to the annoyance of my family). The positives I have from ditching the shoulder rest far outweigh the negatives. For one I can now feel the notes through my body which has improved both tone and accuracy of intonation. Shifting has not presented any major problems as now I have to relax more in order to make a clean shift, which also has the benefit of creating a nicer sound. Yes, it took a couple of weeks to adjust to playing sans-shoulder rest, but the effort was well worth it. I now find it hard to play with a rest, but if that was good enough for some of the great past masters, then it is good enough for me.
Vincent Oliver thanks for sharing your experience Vincent!
SPOT ON my friend!
Excellent! Thanks for taking the time to do this and congrats for the beautiful playing
Nice video. Lack of shoulder rest kills arm vibrato, unless you lift the shoulder. One alternative is the older style of vibrato which Kreisler was good at, described by Roth as "impulse" fingertip vibrato, actuated from within the forearm. Once learned, it's the best vibrato to mimic the natural vibrato of great bel canto singers, including modern ones such as Fleming.
I was Julia who recommended this video, and for good reason. I have done both, with and without. Sometimes I will practice without for a while, and work on the freedom of movement, and then try to maintain that with a shoulder rest. I think I have spent a small fortune trying to find one that works, when I am going to use it, and found the VLM Augustin to be the one that works best. I am a relative beginner as I have returned to it from my youth, but played cello for most of my life, which gives me a bit of an advantage I suppose. I found your demonstration to be very informative, and has helped to clear up some of the misconceptions surrounding this subject. Thanks for this, and I look forward to more of your content.
This is very helpful, thank you! Especially concerning how you set up the left hand.
Please do a video on how you do vibrato!
Excellent, excellent explanation!
Best advices of the world!! In my practice session today I improved a lot!! Thanks :D
More of these videos please! Absolutely love your way of playing!
Man Chun Yu thanks so much)
Really cool
Thank you so much!
If you can please post other videos on vibrato without shoulder rest... I find it quite difficult in 1st position, especially on G and D
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I am beginner with Violin but tried different things to feel comfortable on the shoulder. My last solution today was to put a thick soft material under the shoulder neck and also took a Saxholder and connected it with shoulder rest and put it around the neck from behind and connected it on my belt. Now I feel good. Now even can walk and arms down and Violine will not fall down! Can even play same time Ukulele and Violine is on my shoulder! Looks very funny!
Thanks for this video. I started playing without, then, my teacher made me use one. I played a couple of years with it, but none really fits me. I spent More that what I can afford into many shoulder rests and chin rests, but neck pain and shoulder pain was impossible to handle. Now about a month ago, decided to go to my original chin rest, and took off my shoulder rest. (I just put a little cloth for padding my collar bone). No More pain! Still working on smooth shiftings, but feels much better. Had no problem with vibrato, actually, it got better because with the shoulder, I was in pain, tense, and a Lot less self aware of tension.
I would really apreciate More of this videos, specially, on no shoulder rest on the highest positions.
Did you have a violin teacher? Should I get one or self teach? I just got my violin recently I've been self teaching with RUclips
@@beardedrake9983 2 years later I hope you found a teacher 🙂 In my opinion there is a very important reason why you want a violin teacher: feedback. No amount of RUclips videos, however helpful will give the kind of feedback a good teacher can give.
@@reer5340 I had one through COVID but I actually want to get 1 in person soon. I struggle with getting enough practice. Because I live in an apartment with my girlfriend. Wondering if there's any tips on getting good practice time.
Marc , I love your violin playing
Really good. Well explained 😉
Merci beaoup Marc!! You're calm way of explaining took the panic out of the whole issue. And of course your little playing examples made me tingle, so that diffinitely added to the inspiration. 30+ years ago I took the last "stage" with Dominique Hoppenot. Was hoping to get help with this issue, but unfortunately I didn't understand at the time. So now maybe I can play again...
Glad to hear dear Tamara!
Thank you for doing this video. I ditched my shoulder rest a few years ago, for the sound quality and freedom of movement. The violin does move a lot more without a rest and you have to find ways to manage that, some of which you explain here. I also find it useful to drop the violin onto the shoulder as an alternative to raising the shoulder, it helps to have a small pad under the shirt if you want to try this technique in shifting etc. Finding ways to keep the violin still for certain types of bowing such as colle etc. is very necessary.
Excellent video dealing with a critical subject for violinists. I've found that an effective way to keep the violin still for vibrato is to hold it further to the left with the back of the jaw on the shoulder rest. Also, for shifting down, there is no need to support the violin with the shoulder if the violin is sufficiently elevated.
Thank you so much
Great video!
Good sound!
Thankyou for the tipd.
I bought a shoulder rest a week ago and I don't like it, it's way more comfortable playing without it. Thanks to your video I don't feel like i'm playing the violin wrong :)
Thanks for the video! If only I knew what a vibrato was...:-) But then again, I can keep practising my scales without a shoulder rest....
Hello, Marc,
Thanks for this video. Your explanations are clear and I love your playing. I am trying to depend on a shoulder rest less when I play, so I practice without one a lot, but I still feel a need to use one in orchestra. I am tall and have a thin frame, so there is not a lot of natural space for the violin to rest on. My compromise is to use a shaped foam rubber pad called a Poly Pad. It keeps the violin from slipping and rotating from side to side. The pad does not press hard on my shoulder and limit mobility the way a rigid shoulder rest does. I still use my left hand for support, which frees my neck by taking away the need to clamp down with the head when shifting.
I will still practice shifting down the way you demonstrate, using the shoulder (which is really the first section of our arm) to secure the violin. We are all told to never raise the shoulder, but there is no reason why this large, strong part of our arm cannot actively help with shifting, as long as we release it when it is not needed.
Thanks again,
Jeff
Did you have a violin teacher? Should I get one or self teach? I just got my violin recently I've been self teaching with RUclips
I also feel intonation is more accurate with out a shoulder rest because you have more points of contact on your body with the violin, like you demonstrated; they move intandom with the instrument which I feel like you create more muscle memory not just with your hand but your upper body. Thanks for posting this I spent 200$ on shoulder rests I have been learning mostly without them but I feel like “NO SHOULDER REST NO GOOD” so I’m going skinny dipping (no shoulder rest) thanks to this video!
I am very happy that you have published this video because I think this is the only proper way to play the violin (without a shoulder rest). All of the great violinists of the past and many of those today play without using a shoulder rest. This is something which contributes to their individual sound. A lot of things can be said about the benefits of playing without a shoulder rest, but that is not my intention. I would like to share with you some of my knowledge about shifting: For shifting down from 3rd to 1st position you shouldn't raise your shoulder, instead you should move your thumb down right before the shift then make the shift. This will support your violin without lifting your shoulder. Of course, your left elbow should be more under the violin, so the violin is laying on your thumb this way you won't have a problem playing vibrato. Please check "Principles of Violin Playing and Teaching" by Ivan Galamian (pg.24-25) "...In moving from from third to first position thumb should slightly precede the hand." Best wishes in your career.
Garnik Goukasian thanks for your comment ! Very true!
Are there elements of modern style contingent on using a rest?
thank you for this video, Mr. Bouchkov. I have watched many videos on yes or no shoulder rest (including your aunt - that's how I found you, actually). I'm a beginner playing less than a year and have been constantly fighting with shoulder rests - I've tried 3. I want to play without one and have started to practice that way. I have noticed a lot more sound coming from the instrument and really enjoy that. this vid gave me a lot of info on what I wanted to know - shifting down and vibrato. I have subscribed so if you have any other tips on these things or anything violin related, I'd love to see them. Thank you again.
Great stuff Marc! I think the shoulder rest contributes to stiffness and tendonitis!
We are balancing the violin when you are playing without shoulder rest. Your description fits this goal. When you are using a shoulder rest you are holding the instrument, which leads to stiffness and tendonitis if you are not careful. The sound does not project with a shoulder rest. I also noticed that the fingers act differently as you are transferring the pressure from finger to finger and thus connecting the sound. Perhaps, this is the missing link of the old school. I mean being aware of the proprioception and feeling the sound for greatest satisfaction in terms of musical awareness. I'm still experimenting with this :) God Bless you mate!
Francisco Aguirre thank you!
I play "restless". I started playing violin around 43, now 60. Only had teacher till the end of book 2 Suzuki. I refused both rests and kept firing teacher when they made me. Now I am on ABRSM grade 6 book and Suzuki book 7. I am extremely natural holding the violin freely and shift well unless there is too much shifting within the same piece (too overwhelming) . I have vibrato😁. But I am not good with double stops and staccato(s).
I play well and play a lot without any pain issues. However, I think I have reached my optimal ability and would begin to have real difficulties after Suzuki book 7.
Thank you for your videos.
I've heard about playing without shoulder rest, but I've never met anyone who does, and never understood how it's possible, as we learn to hold the violin without the left hand. Taking on account that historically, violin was played with no shoulder rest nor chin rest, your video made it clear for me about the technique, which I think is interesting to know about!
On the other hand, I dont understand why people can't play without SR either 😂. I tried once out of curiosity and I felt like a robot. So stiff but in the end it's just a matter of personal preference I believe
Grazie!
Very good video Mark! You don't actually need to raise your shoulder to do downshifts. You just have to practice to develop flexibility in your left-hand violin grabbing and you are holding the violin against your collarbone by your chin, so the shoulder is unnecessary to secure the instrument. The only time I've seen people are using shoulder is when you play in very high positions and they have relatively small hands, so they have to move thumb up to the side of the violin. Every time your thumb can stay under the violin neck you don't' need the shoulder.
Thank you helped me I practice without shoulder rest. I will try your method and suggestions. Sure without shoulder rest sound is better. For a while I tried without chin rest to improve quality of sound. I will experiment without chin rest. And the bridge moved farther away from finger board... This increases length of strings and sounds near to sound of viola.
parabens Pelo canal.
very nice videooooooo
that's very interesting. I had no idea how intimately involved the body is with the instrument, I guess it all takes time to become instinctive.
I ‘ll send this video to my students ;-) then they know I ‘m not the only one telling them lol
Thanks for your video!!!
Emmanuel Luciano Crombeen thank you) and thanks for sharing
Thanks🎼🎵🎶
Thanks for free tutorial. I'm practicing my violin without shoulder rest. But i'm noobie only...
Thanks for this video 👍 Can you say anything about your left hand thumb position and about where in your left hand, the violin generally rests? 😊
I spent so much money on shoulder rests and chin rests, I am now learning to play without a shoulder rest and it's really freeing up my body. I'm also getting less pain in my neck and jaw. I also don't have to worry about the shoulder rest coming off in the middle of playing! I feel like not using the shoulder rest gets you closer to the original intentions of violin makers and masters of old.
Thank you for the great advice, Mr. Bouchkov. You mentioned that you are using something now (instead of playing totally without a shoulder rest) and I have seen your recent videos where you are playing with something underneath. May I ask what you are using?
Dear Marc, can You make a video about wolf tone? Advises, how to play on this specific tone(note), or how to tame it?
Thanks for the great info. Does playing without shoulder rest impact the dexterity, e.g. more effort to do fast passages involving lots of shifting?
Can you talk more about the positioning of the thumb and left hand in general (especially when playing with vibrato)? I often feel like there is so much weight from the violin sitting in my thumb and it can hurt after a while....
Did you have a violin teacher? Should I get one or self teach? I just got my violin recently I've been self teaching with RUclips
Спасибо за видео, Марк. Это очень познавательно и интересно. Продолжайте снимать подобные видео уроки по технологии. Но у меня возник один вопрос, так как я сам играю часто без моста. К. Флеш в своей школе скрипичной игры пишет, что при переходах вниз, вначале должен идти большой палец, создавая тем самым точку опоры и противовес остальным пальцам которые спускаются уже вслед за ним, подготавливая руку к нижележащей позиции (тем самым развивая гибкость всей ладони, исключая хватательно-рывковые движения). Что поднятием плеча при переходах пользуются скрипачи " не получившие образование" (как-то так). Авторитет такого педагога , воспитавшего плеяду знаменитых скрипачей ( в том числе и Изаи) внушает огромное доверие у меня, так как с точки зрения физиологии, анатомии и вообще всего, что он пишет у меня не вызывало никогда никакого противоречия. Так вот вопрос - почему всё-таки плечо, а не скольжение под шейку большого пальца ( понимаю, что в некоторых ситуациях без плеча не обойтись, но всё же при переходах с 3ей в 1ую это очень логично и удобно). Заранее благодарен за ответ. Надеюсь Вы знаете русский язык)
Thx
If you become a student of Heifetz or Milstein, they will just tell you not use shoulder rest, period.
That's how I got rid of the rest. I am so thankful to Heifetz for the instruction.
But I don't think it is right to be so dogmatic. Everyone has their own unique physique.
@suedavis3525 I agree.
Using the the shoulder rest is actually easier to play for many.
Hey- that was really informative, thank you. What chin rest is that?
I don't find I need to lift the left shoulder to shift down. I have a chin rest that fits well and has a slight lip. If the lip is hooked gently behind my jaw, I can shift down with no issues, even without pressing down on the chin rest. Though this did take a bit of time to work out. Alternatively you can reach back with the thumb, then shift the hand to catch up. You see Milstein doing this quite often.
Personally I much prefer the feeling of balance and freedom when playing without a shoulder rest. But I'm an amateur mainly playing traditional music and rarely need to shift above 5th. Virtuoso concertos that take you high up the neck might be another matter, I guess...
subscribed
Making good vibrato sound without shoulder rest is hard. Thats why Heifetz is great.
Sounds great! However, for me as a beginner, the violin keeps floating everywhere, moving a lot, it's painful everywhere, and the fingerboard keeps falling between the thumb and the index finger! It's not yet clicking for me. Plus, vibrato is still hard. BUT when i try a shoulder rest it's ever worse
Thank you so much! This is brilliant! I only struggle with vibrato when not using a shoulder rest.. you have a beautiful vibrato. Is it possible to vibrate while still having the finger base touching the neck?
Did you have a violin teacher? Should I get one or self teach? I just got my violin recently I've been self teaching with RUclips
I saw your online live concert this week with hr symphony orchestra and noticed you're playing with the shoulder rest again. Can you explain why?
Excelente video, muy buena información. No se inglés, alguien podría decirme si sostiene el violín con el dedo pulgar o con la basé del dedo indice, no me queda claro. Muchas gracias
Mira, es más bien un intercambio continuo, a veces el pulgar debe adelantarse e cambios de posición por ejemplo, sobre todo si son pasajes cantados, y más en descendentes. A veces no. Es más encontrar un equilibrio entre la sujeción de la mandíbula por momentos por momentos adelantar el hombro ligeramente para subir la clavícula, por momentos el pulgar, por momentos el dedo que está presionando la cuerda mientras la mano vive muy libremente. Lo importante siempre siempre, es buscar la mayor relajación muscular posible.
Podes leer el libro de galamian, que explica bastantes cosas. Probablemente primero le des un significado y meses o años después entiendas algo diferente del mismo texto. Me ha pasado más de una vez. El violín mismo es tu mejor maestro siempre ..
Everyone always grips the violin in their neck without supporting it at the other end. I've tried this and it is IMPOSSIBLE. There's a huge weight of leverage, with the fulcrum point being less than a centimetre away from one end continually trying to violently rip it out of the grasp of this little bit of slippery flesh over curved bones. HOW DO YOU DO THAT??!? Also I just push against my viola with my wrist. It secures it against the neck and leaves your fingers naturally in place to play all the notes. I've not learned vibrato yet, that will probably require gripping the neck.
Dear Marc were is the video were do you speak about the "little thing" :-) What are you using now?Thanks for your video!
Curious
This is what I have been doing naturally (re: shoulder and shifting). However, after attending a master class I was advised to stop doing it. This has messed up my natural style for over four months. I have been trying to make some sense of how violinists who do not use shoulder support (e.g. Menuhin, Mutter, and Illenyi) do it, by watching video close-ups; but to no avail.
Could you resolve that already? Did the person who give the masterclass used shoulder rest? You'll see, one of the problems is that many violinist nowadays don't even know how to play without, so don't know the no rest technique either. So how could they advise on that aspect? I keep wandering that
Why should the left shoulder be in the same spot all the time, exactly!
But I can't find the other video where you talk about the gadget you normally use.
After a lot of years, I feel very comfortable with my technique and the sound it produces. I use shoulder rest and I wouldn't have it any other way. Vibrato using the movement of the violin cause of instability?? Pff... Whatever "tension" you are missing on your shoulder by not having a shoulder rest, is all transfered to your whole left arm and especially your thumb finger! By using one, I have my hand completely free and I gain a lot of expression power and not a single point on my whole arm is stiff. I can use vibrato very freely as I have my thumb free and not locked. And it also helped me to aqcuire a straight proper posture and avoid neck and back problems. And those that have arguments regarding the sound, using a shoulder rest impacts the sound far less than having a small sponge underneath in order to feel a little more comfortable.
And also, much more controlled vibrato with variable intensity, and not "jittery"
Does this philosophy work for violinists with longer nexks?
I am actually more and more convinced that people with long necks HAVE to use something to help them. We are all build differently. Thanks for pointing it out.
Could you please tell which piece is the one you play at 0:58 - 1:15 ? Thanks.
Bach sonata no.1 in g minor
Lol I've been playing without a shoulder test for a while now and a lot of people are surprised that I can play without one
But the only reason I dont use one is because I'm too lazy to buy one. However it's still works well enough for me
Did you have a violin teacher? Should I get one or self teach? I just got my violin recently I've been self teaching with RUclips
Do you teach?
can anybody tell what he plays here please 0:59 ? sounds lovely
Bach sonata no.1 in g minor
@@bobbynehemia2415 thankyou thats brilliant
For those of you who are also teachers, or who may interest playing without SR, there is a good violin pedagoge, Mimi Zweig that teaches without shoulder rest, and criticize it a lot. She uses a little sponge. Her web is www.stringpedagogy.com very very useful resource . Tons of free videos and information in there.
Hi, I played without shoulder rest for 3.5 years then suddenly got a bad shoulder pain. Getting physio therapy.one thing though, whenever I play, my collar bone and the edge of the collar bone gets red. A popular female violinist plays the violin on her bare shoulder without getting any marks. How is that possible?
I suspect you were, probably with or without rest, clutching it. Pressing too hard with your head or shoulder without even noticing. It happens many times to me too, with, or without the rest. I have to put constant attention not to.
Sofia Winkler I am going to check and constantly monitor it. Thanks. Do you get your collar bone area red though?
@@violinow1673 I have sensitive skin, so anything makes it red. So best solution I found, is to use a common yellow kitchen cloth (don't know it's name in English) it doesn't slide and I don't get the red marks.
Beside, if you check to Anne Sophie mutter (I suspect you were referring to her) you'll see in some high fast passages she does use some fine cloth, to have a better grip.
@@violinow1673 oh, and, sometimes I am using a wittner isny shoulder rest. I have the combo model with the wittner chinrest, (Wich I do NoT recommend!! Has the wrong shape)
However there is another model of the wittner isny for any chin rest of any brand. I think that may work better. It is the most close to no rest I could find, at least in my country.
Sofia Winkler Chux. Everyone will see I am using bight yellow Chux but I will try😄
Every time I think about playing without a shoulder rest, my left shoulder rises a bit.
Hi .did you Take part in competition of Chaykovskiy 2019?
Maxima Джумаева yes!!!
@@MarcBouchkovViolinist @@MarcBouchkovViolinist Wow your' s play very emotional. I am glad to tell you about it. When I did hear you to television your's play I cried because you touchingly for me. Gratitude you for this play. I am sorry my english bad ,but I wanted glad you.
Whats the piece at 1:00?
Alexandru Saulea Bach Adagio in G minor!
I would recommend to anyone who is just starting to get a shoulder rest. I saw many students struggling without it, had horrible posture and were barely able to play, and I helped them by simply introducing a shoulder rest, and ALL of them improved immediately and significantly. Ditching a shoulder rest won't improve your intonation, technique or musicality, it will only add to your pain. So use a shoulder rest, unless you are feeling really comfortable without it. Besides, if you are doing it incorrectly, you are actually muffling the sound by pressing with your shoulder against the lower deck of your violin.
I think you are wright. You can press and have a bad, distorting position to your neck with and without. But with shoulderrest take also the liberty to move your head as you can see from many performers in slow, not so demanding music passages.
You are leading people down the primrose path my friend. ESPECIALLY children should NOT learn to play with the shoulder rest. I was forced to let go of the shoulder rest after years of playing because of the cronic shoulder problems I developed. My shoulder probIems dissapeared when I let go of the shoulder rest.
I think you havent played long enough to know the difference. Furthermore, I can hear the difference between violinists playing with or without it.
What do you recommend to people with long neks and narrow shoulders?
Jannes D that’s a very good question.. if one wishes to play without shoulder rest then there are many possibilities. I’m playing for example with a little “sponge” which adjusts to the exact amount of extra shoulder movement that I need to do to shift and vibrate properly. I know some of my colleagues have bought some higher chin rests, and I know that it helps a lot when one has a long neck. But in the end, for sure, people do as it is the most comfortable for them!
I have a neck that is a little longer than average and use the plastic Wittner Zuerich adjustable chin rest. The tilt of it, left to right, is also adjustable. For a plastic thing it's kind of expensive, but it looks nice and is very light, and works well for me.There's a way of shifting without using the shoulder, explained by one person in the comments as described in the Galamian book, and I've seen it demonstrated in videos online. The violin rests on the collar bone, not the shoulder, so as long as you have a good collar bone, it won't matter how narrow the shoulders are.
You can also experiment with putting something on top of your present chin rest, and sponges or whatever underneath, to explore what is most comfortable in terms of thickness on both sides. I don't use anything underneath, except a thin pad or few layers of fabric over my collar bone.
Подавляющее большинство современных скрипачей использует мост / shoulder rest / или любую другую " конструкцию " для того , чтобы фиксировать инструмент /скрипку / между подбородком и плечом ! Цель ,- максимально освободить левую руку от поддерживания шейки скрипки при изменении позиций и при исполнении восходящих и нисходящих пассажей , а также других сложных манипуляций пальцами левой руки , например пиццикато или сложных растяжек при игре аккордами ! Мост в технике скрипачей играет ту же роль , как шпиль в игре виолончелистов , поэтому полемика по этому вопросу несовременна и отбрасывает оппонентов к началу 20 века , когда она была актуальна !Так же абсурдны рассуждения автора ролика о постановке правой руки и расположении пальцев на смычке , что чрезвычайно индивидуально и зависит от физического предрасположения скрипача !